Andy Dawson (00:00)

I love going into bookshops. I don't know. I'm a bit like, you know, Notting Hill you know, Hugh Grant with his travel bookshop, but I collect them don't read them. So I've got stacks of stuff. ⁓ must read that. So I'm just going to go and have a look at that and review those. I've tried not to listen to any podcasts this week. So that gives me a

bank of stuff to listen to. And being the boring fart I am, I've saved three investors chronicles, which is an investment magazine, which is my guilty pleasure. So to read whilst I'm over there as well. What about what about you? What's on your list?

PJ Ellis (00:28)

Hang on, hang on. Let's

just deal with that first. Do you subscribe to the investor or is the investment chronicle? What's that?

Andy Dawson (00:34)

Investors, investors, Chronicle.

It's a magazine about stock markets, shares, trends, buys, sells. I've just, ever since I was little, I've followed, I've kind of followed it. I always had bit of a fascination with, with the stock market and I tried to get into fund management. I shouldn't tell this story. Finished, finished my, uh, final, my degree,

and was due to go to a three day camping trip with my mates in France to see another mate who was working on a campsite for a bit of a beer up and that kind of stuff. And then through the post, I got a letter from Norwich Union Asset Management asking me to go down to Norwich for an interview on exactly the same day that we were due to go on holiday. So obviously I refused to go to the interview and went on the piss instead.

PJ Ellis (01:18)

And that was the end of your career in...

Andy Dawson (01:20)

That was the end. Yeah,

that was the end of my opportunity. So I've just read about it ever since.

PJ Ellis (01:25)

was that something your Mom or dad was into

Andy Dawson (01:27)

no, no, just me. I always had a bit of fascination with just trying to watch how these kinds of things go. I've always been interested in companies because my dad worked at an interesting company called Pilkington's, which was a big global entity. was a technical director of that business and they pioneered things like float glass technology. he'd be in Brazil or Australia or

you wherever there was a problem, he was sent to try and sort it out. So it just got me, yeah, it's got me interested into following companies really and understanding how they work.

PJ Ellis (01:57)

I always had a weird obsession with wanting to be a trader as a kid. I wanted to wear those swanky jackets and be on the trading floor and wave my hands around and make lots of money. was bizarre really. I never invested in Investors Chronicle though, maybe I should. Is it one of those difficult ones like the FT?

Andy Dawson (02:18)

Yeah, well, no, it's got a bit of jargon in it, but like many things these days, they've got to simplify it to appeal to people. So there are ideas they talk about, it's things like what's going on in the technology sector. They look at some of the big players in technology like Nvidia, they'll do features on it. So obviously, because a lot of what I do, we're working with big companies, trying to work with big companies. So again, it's an opportunity to understand some of the key trends that are going on and the movers and shakers and that kind of stuff.

It's awesome, I talk about it very often, so you've done well to get it out of me.

PJ Ellis (02:46)

see, that's something you've never told me. I've known you now for probably five, six, seven, whatever. You're a private person in some regards, but equally what I quickly understand there and remember is that you're a very successful guy if we're judging success by growing a business and whatever it might be.

But actually you work hard for that success. know, lot of people probably don't understand how difficult it is. know, it's an investment. That is not just something, it's a pastime of course, but you're also utilising that time to actually help you grow your business. What was that thing you said earlier about some people?

Andy Dawson (03:18)

Yeah. Yeah.

of caveat that, but there's really interesting quote I read and I really like, and I say this to people a lot is that, everybody wants what you've got, but nobody wants to do the hard work that got you there.

The football manager, the sports person who sacrifices everything. Someone who builds their own fantastic house by their own bare hands and, and, yeah, I want one of them, but, no, I don't, I don't fancy doing all that digging or years of blood, sweat and tears or investing in time, effort and energy and learning about stuff. That really resonates kind of well to the get rich quick kind of people there.

PJ Ellis (03:54)

So do you think that's, I mean, what's the blame there? I mean, I suspect some people might even think that Gymshark, these big brands were, you know, quick wins, you know, they're not, you know, they're not. It's not just go to the NEC, flog a few t-shirts and off we go.

Andy Dawson (04:01)

Great point.

I think there's a combo of that. Yeah. I think you can't get away from, you know, aspirational kind of stuff that's posted, isn't it? And I'm not convinced it's all true anyway. You know, take a, I love an origin founder story because if you do actually get into the weeds of someone like Ben Francis, it kind of dated back to dropping out of university. He's been going, what?

PJ Ellis (04:08)

Is that social media do you think

Andy Dawson (04:34)

12, 13, 14 years, whatever it is. You know, there's no such thing as an overnight success. It generally takes about 10 years. What kind of is a saying like that, isn't there? And take it again, take him as an example. He's been CEO for three or four years now at Gymshark, but he was one of the very brave and wise people who was CEO, realized he wasn't the right skill set and experience to grow it. Step back, Steve Hewitt popped in, Paul Richardson. What a great journey they had together. And then ultimately he's taken the reins and...

seemingly doing a fantastic job as well. So things don't just happen overnight, but you think you're right. We want them to because we're time poor and impatient.

PJ Ellis (05:12)

So do you think there's a responsibility on people like Ben, Ben, if you're listening, mate, just come onto the podcast and tell your own story. But from what I've seen from Ben's journey, he's very transparent around sharing those photographs of him on the sewing machine and all that sort of stuff. Are we responsible then to showcase to others that it isn't that easy

Andy Dawson (05:30)

I absolutely think so, mate. And certainly, as dads, my boys, they want the results, but, you know, getting them to, read a book. Yeah, actually read a book. Don't read a summary or watch YouTube. Write things down on cards. Don't just read it and assume that you can learn. You know, in the workplace, I've worked for and with lots of companies over the years. And these things take real time and effort.

PJ Ellis (05:38)

Yeah.

Andy Dawson (05:53)

everyone wants a magic pill. Lots of people stop when it gets hard. The successful people keep going when it's hard because most people don't and eventually you get through to the other side. That's where you get the success because most people wouldn't do it.

PJ Ellis (06:06)

grit mate and the wit. there's a brilliant thing the other day. saw this, I mean, they're everywhere, aren't they? I'm sure no doubt I'll repurpose it as a LinkedIn post soon, but there's a graphic and there's a geezer at the top that's like digging away Imagine like they're building out of channel tunnel on your own and he's carrying on And the other one, in front of the other one.

and he's come to a dead end and he's turning back and like within an inch after where he's left the digging is the gold sort of thing, you know, that sort of just keep going. I'm saying to Blake at the moment,

Andy Dawson (06:31)

Yeah, yeah.

PJ Ellis (06:35)

It's a bit of a rubbish analogy, but I think he gets it. He wants to be an actor and he'll hate me saying this, but he's, and all dads are biased, right? But you'll know whether your boy's a good cricketer. And I will tell you, I don't know cricket very well, but from what I've seen and his progress he's made, he clearly is a good cricketer, simple as that. And I know that my son is a good actor, he's brilliant. And I know he's a good actor because I know exactly why he's doing it. He's found a safe space to

to act. Sometimes this confidence that people see in me is a bravado. I'm acting that sort of part. But he doesn't want to go to auditions. So I'm saying, it's binary. One is go or zero is no.

You've got to have that conversation to enable that. And I find it so scary, mate, there's talent everywhere, but opportunity, not so much. And these kids have got the opportunity and the talent, but something is stopping them from accessing that. And maybe it is this idea that it's easy and it'll come to them. I don't know.

Andy Dawson (07:34)

Yeah, there's a, that kind of binary choice of yes or no is really important because when it is hard, you do just have to go. You've just got to go. And again, there's many, many reasons why not to, you know, cause it's difficult or you've not been there or, know, you've got some anxiety or apathy around doing it. But when things are hard, if you just go, I believe that more times than not, you'll be successful.

PJ Ellis (07:42)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andy Dawson (07:58)

And you'll, you'll get to where you need to be. It, it's not easy, isn't it? Cause everything is about success that, and they're drinking through a flipping hosepipe, aren't they, about success and what perfection looks like. And actually, you you'll have been through this as well. when we sit around having tea and dinner with, my lads, it's about what didn't go well. What did I fail at today?

PJ Ellis (08:18)

Yeah, yeah.

Andy Dawson (08:19)

I really messed that right up. But you know what? This is what I've learned. And you've heard me. I've bored you with the whole win, learn, change philosophy in the past, haven't I? is.

PJ Ellis (08:28)

I wouldn't say, I'd say boring with a lowercase B mate. Come on. I do get stuff out of it.

Andy Dawson (08:33)

Yeah. So that's, know, when things go wrong, what did you learn from it? You know, what could you learn? What did you learn? And therefore what change do you need to make in order to change that into a win? And that's, and that's the whole, we've heard the 1 % mindset and all those kinds of things. And it's all about incremental gains. You know, the, the famous inches speech by Al Pacino in any given Sunday, you know, which we got too many F's and Jeff's was to kind of put on here, but it's just the point where most people stop.

PJ Ellis (08:54)

Yeah, yeah.

Andy Dawson (09:00)

and few are willing to go. And that's about resilience, about how can we share stories, talk about it, and don't expect it to happen overnight. It's just a continual kind of conversation piece for me. And eventually I have faith that it will move them forward a wee bit, but it doesn't happen overnight.

PJ Ellis (09:16)

so I've procrastinated, I think is how you pronounce it. Yeah, there's an R isn't there I think. Far too often in my life. But what I'm soon realizing, I'm 46 in August, so it's taken me some time that when I do go, I am enjoying that experience far more than the regrets I would have had in not.

Andy Dawson (09:18)

I'm sure it's

PJ Ellis (09:34)

going on that journey, if that makes sense. I'm actually following a lady, Amelia Sordell. Amelia, if you're listening, Bab, come on the podcast for us, will you? Because she starts her bio and there's a number of things I'm learning from people like Amelia. She says, just effing post the post, effing post, just effing post it, right. Now she has the hindsight that allows her to say that.

Andy Dawson (09:50)

I've seen yeah.

PJ Ellis (09:57)

But actually she's justified in saying that because she's been consistent. She has done it. She has turned up. She has posted every day. She has given those learns that that perspective she has to help others. And she would have had people un follow her. She would have had people call her out. She would have had people maybe say, what's this all about? But you know what? She's just stayed true. She's been consistent. And actually all the lessons now are around that. Turn up, turn up.

turn up, as long as it's within that value framework that you believe in, as long as you're turning up and being yourself, there's nothing better than that. And actually, to go back to what we started with here, she says that actually, I will build in public, I will tell you how to do this because 99 % of people won't do it. They won't do it, that's the difference. I'll tell you exactly how you can make all the money I've made because I know you won't do it. So,

what do you think around that sort of thing turning up about that confidence about being yourself? You were telling me something earlier, you saw a quote or something, didn't you?

Andy Dawson (10:55)

Yeah, I did. did. Just one quick point though, and I will read that out because I think it's fantastic quote. Just on the point you've just been talking about, I think the question that has served me well, and again, I encourage other people to adopt this is, and it'll work for Blake, it worked for my boys, you know, is just ask yourself this when you're at a crossroads or a decision to make. What's the worst thing that can happen?

And, and you've got to write it down and quite often it's a blank page or you might get one or two things out of it. But if you really think back and what is the worst thing that can happen, then it takes the physical activity of having to write something down, engages with your brain properly here and real kind un block stuff. So just a practical tip that's worked for me. Yeah.

PJ Ellis (11:38)

I love that. I

won't name the family now. Well, I might be able to, to be fair, but very lovely MP friend of mine, she's now a Baroness actually. They've had their ups and downs in their family business. I'm sure, well, I won't name the names, but they're a lovely, lovely couple. Very successful now, but they've also had their ups and downs and they're very open about that in relation to business and life, the usual things that we all, and she said that's her motto. Every time they used to go to bed.

They'd look at each other and make sure they smile. know, all that sort of stuff. They always say good night and always say, what's the worst that could happen? And as long as they're not, you know, there is a sense check there, you know, we've been true to ourselves. not being nasty. not, you know, what's the worst that can happen? You know, you lose your house. You know, I'm not saying that's something you want to do. We're not, no one's dying. And actually that's a really, I'm going to, I'm going to do that exercise now, man. I appreciate that. But what was that thing about self-confidence, mate, that you mentioned earlier?

Andy Dawson (12:25)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah,

I heard Jimmy Carr say this, but I don't think it's his quote. It might be some like Alex Hormozi's or something like that, but just bear with me. It's a little bit long, but I think it's a good one. Self-confidence doesn't come from shouting affirmations in the mirror. Real self-confidence comes from giving the world irrefutable proof that you are who you say you are.

PJ Ellis (12:48)

Wow. You know what that does? That immediately makes me go upstairs and throw that mirror away that I've got with all affirmations on it. All lit up on LED screen. So say it again, mate. Give me a, paraphrase it.

Andy Dawson (12:52)

Yeah.

Yeah. So for me, it's all about if you, you know, people want to perceived in a certain way. I want to be this, I'm this sort of great leader. But they get unraveled because their behaviors and actions aren't consistent with how they want to be perceived or how they talk about themselves. So think of a leader who's a great leader of people. I'm a great leader. I'm a great leader. I wish I'm a great leader of people. However, in a closed room.

PJ Ellis (13:22)

yourself.

Andy Dawson (13:27)

They're critiquing teammates, peers, colleagues. That isn't the behaviors and actions of a great leader. know, someone, someone who wants to make a difference to the world. And I really admire you for this. You, you really get behind charities and make things happen. Then they have to do the hard yards of getting out there, setting something up, creating a network, creating a pool and actually living it and doing it. Some people just want the badge.

Some people just want the badge of I am this as opposed to the genuine article. And through behaviors and actions, I think it's very easy to see the cracks in some of the facades that some people put up. Not everyone, of course. There's many, many genuine great people out there. But for me, that's just such a reminder of don't seek the, you know, don't seek the love of the crowd. Seek the love of yourself first. I think I said it earlier on on a pod, wasn't it?

You've got to love yourself first. Would you buy yourself a beer? Yeah. And I hope we'd all say yes. And that's an amazing place to start.

PJ Ellis (14:30)

Well, mean, wow, mean, that's would you buy yourself a beer? I mean, there's your there's your book title, mate. Right, genuinely, there's your hook. And that's all you know what is like.

Andy Dawson (14:35)

Hahaha

I think it's someone else's line,

not mine. I think it's someone else's line.

PJ Ellis (14:42)

Is that going to be my LinkedIn post tomorrow or yours though? That's the difference.

Andy Dawson (14:44)

Yours,

mine is taking a picture of a microphone that I've actually got to work.

PJ Ellis (14:48)

Yes. Nice microphone, mate.

Sure. Look at you. doing all right. I'm sure as well though. So, okay. That's really interesting because I think it's like everything. A lot of it comes back to this filtered world that we live in and what dictates success and what does XYZ look like. we've all seen, and it's only an opinion. I might be massively wrong, but I do think that sometimes these gongs and these badges and these awards

dictate what people do and it's for that that they do this rather than the other way around. I I will never ever allow awards, gongs, letters after, not that I've got any letters after my name, to dictate why I do the things I do because it's just not me. I've always been a doer. always tried to, I lead,

I'm not very good leader. I've done a lot of reflection recently and there's a lot of learns that I know I'm going on a journey now that I'm going to upset people. know a few of my mates will drop me a WhatsApp going, look at all this preaching on LinkedIn. And you know what? If my mates want to unfollow me on that platform, that's perfectly fine because we'll still go to the pub and have a drink. But I'm going to be as honest as I can.

And it's not me having a swipe at any business I've worked for or person I've worked with. It's just those life lessons that I've had. Because I understand that I haven't been a brilliant people leader because I've probably been being, and I sound stupid, I'm rubbish at being having difficult conversations because I'm obsessed with how people think of me. I'm a people pleaser, but actually that hasn't really helped me or others. But what I know I am good at and it's still difficult for me to even say this.

Andy Dawson (16:04)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (16:25)

a bit cringe, but I lead by doing. So I know, I know no one can take that away from me. That at least I do things and try things.

Andy Dawson (16:33)

Well, let's

take this as an example, right? We've been searching for a long time to do something together. And we've invested in lots of caffeine to try and try and get to it. And then we, a while ago, we just hit on the, we should just do a podcast. Right. And, and you were off, you know, name, brand, ideas, and just doing, doing, you know, it's okay to be comfortable being the doer.

PJ Ellis (16:42)

Yeah.

Yeah, maybe it's on you.

Yeah.

Andy Dawson (16:58)

It's all about, everything's all about balance, isn't it? So therefore, you know, don't, it's very rarely you find that any someone who's the totally rounded individual who can, who can do everything. And it puts huge expectations on ourselves if we're not strong in certain areas, but that's what team and balance is all about. There's a team of two, there's a team of two on this. And if we were identical, it'd be a disaster because we'd both be wanting to do everything. And it's not, it's a really nice balance. that's, that's what teams are twos.

teams of threes, whatever. think I scribbled down as you were talking here and I think this is really, really important for the world we're in Cause there's so much AI generated content and bland stuff, isn't it? Future winners are going to be genuine and authentic in my opinion. Brands that are genuine and authentic generally win. People who are genuine and authentic generally do well.

PJ Ellis (17:38)

yeah.

Yeah.

Andy Dawson (17:52)

because they don't unravel. Go back to my self-confidence doesn't come from shouting affirmations in the mirror. I am strong, I am a leader. I am the best person at XYZ. It comes from delivery. It comes from doing, it comes from giving evidence that you can do what you say. So I think you are right person, right time to be successful for you. And don't forget, everything you've been through has got you to here, you know?

Often people get asked, don't they, would you change anything? And some people have been through horrendous things. You know, I mean, I've got a mate at the moment, he's been through some horrendous things from his days out in Afghanistan and kind of serving our country and stuff like that. But everything you've done has got you to here. And if you're, if you're happy now, where here is, would you, what would you take away? Because you might've gone a different direction, right?

PJ Ellis (18:41)

Yeah. And I think, you know what, I know that gentleman, so I won't say who he is, but I think what I find moving, empowering, helpful is that when that individual is his true self online, you know, I think a lot of people might go, here we go, another sub story to frame it in a very colloquial way, but actually it's his truth.

And it's his story. There was a guy Justin Welsh, right? He gives all these sort of playbooks as to how to do well on social and off the back of him making a lot of money around consulting and burning out and all that. And his is, your unique play is your story, because no one else has it, so tell it. And I thought, actually, yeah, that's really powerful, That's really powerful.

Andy Dawson (19:22)

No,

I mean, there's a great, again, saying I've used, I've always copied sayings off people, so I don't know who this was from, but never outsource responsibility for yourself to someone else. You know, it's a similar type of thing. You know, don't be beholden. And just going back to the person we were chatting about, and maybe we'll get him on the podcast and we can probably share his story. I'll try and answer that. That particular sharing of his true story is...

PJ Ellis (19:34)

Yeah.

Yeah, it'd be great.

Andy Dawson (19:49)

recently delivered him his biggest business and most exciting opportunity that he feels he's had. Genuine and authentic.

PJ Ellis (19:56)

There we go. Because

we can all have flashy presentations and PowerPoints and whatever it might be, but no one has his story. There was one part of his story that I read in his book that sticks with me, both good and bad. Bad in the sense that, wow, that's horrific. Good in the sense that I will never be in that position, but actually I've learned so much from it through his perspective. And I've actually told my kids about it. And he probably doesn't know that.

Andy Dawson (20:17)

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (20:24)

He probably doesn't know that. And I hope he does now because we'll send him this. I think that is the path. But what my challenge, Andy, I don't know about you, I know that is true. I know that the more real people will be successful. And I'm framing success as helpful at the moment. I don't really know what's successful, but it will help others if you tell people your story, because it will often resonate with the most, right?

Talking about algorithms and AI might not resonate with X, Y, and Z, but if you speak to them about your kids, chances are you'll have more audience to talk to. But generally, I find that those people that have the stories to tell don't have the confidence to tell them. So how do we get them to get out their own way and to appreciate that actually, forget humility, well, no, maintain that, but put humble PJ, I'm using me as an example.

Andy Dawson (21:04)

There you

PJ Ellis (21:16)

humble exercise and tell your story, get on with it. So I think sometimes people just don't, and I'm not saying, you you can be private, of course, you know, completely, but if you've got that story to tell, and you sort of want to tell it, there's loads of platforms to do it on.

Andy Dawson (21:19)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Cause that can inspire, you know, that can inspire and help other people. ⁓ which is important, you know, having we reach out to Tom, didn't we recently, Sport 4 life, you know, and, the mission and purpose is to basically inspire and equip the next generation. Right. So it's all about stories to attract funding, stories to attract the kids into, into their programs.

PJ Ellis (21:36)

Hmm?

Andy Dawson (21:53)

And so that's the power of stories is just something that can never be underestimated.

PJ Ellis (21:57)

So on that then, I suppose I'm gonna put you on the spot here, but I know you, you're a fountain of knowledge and information and inspiration. Any stories that you've read recently, any projects, any sort of exhibitions that you've been to that just stand out? You don't have an answer? I knew you'd have an answer. I knew you would.

Andy Dawson (22:12)

I'll give you, only because

I was sharing this with someone recently, right? And it's inspired by my frustration with my children. In a good way. There was a photographer, an artist called Eric Pickersgill. Pickersgill, P-I-C-K-E-R-S-G-I-L-L, he's a photographer. Yeah, I believe so. I believe so.

PJ Ellis (22:22)

All right, here we go. Here we go.

Eric what? Pick a skill.

Is he, is he, is he still alive?

Andy Dawson (22:40)

He did some work and he did a photo collection, I think it's predominantly black and white called Removed and it's genius. He gets people in scenarios, can be a family watching a film, a group of friends around a barbecue, family at the top of a mountain looking at a view. And he captures them with a mobile phones or tablets or devices in the hands. So he takes the photo first.

PJ Ellis (22:46)

mood

Andy Dawson (23:03)

And then he takes exactly the same photo of them in those surroundings, having removed the mobile phones or devices. And all of a sudden you have people at top of mountains, around a family barbecue, watching a movie together, and everyone is staring at their hand. And in a world where we are overrun by social media and we're struggling with presence and that kind of stuff, it's just a nice beautiful reminder.

PJ Ellis (23:11)

wow.

Andy Dawson (23:30)

of the need to connect. an amazing collection. I think I posted about it a couple of times, but just, yeah, in fact, he's alive because he liked the post I did on him.

PJ Ellis (23:32)

Wow.

So literally there'll be people, so gathering at the barbecue and all looking at the phones, he removes the phones and they're just looking down into a void sort of thing. wow, okay. I mean, what moves you about that most then?

Andy Dawson (23:47)

Yeah, really powerful.

It's just a reminder, again, my own time, how much time do you spend on this? How much time do you miss what is going on around you and the moments? could be at the top of them, you could have climbed the top of Snowden, and you're just catching up on emails or a post. How's me post done? Something amazing flies past you, an eagle, just missing out. It's about balance for me.

And it's about being present. So it moves me most because it's about my kids. There's quite a few family ones on there. There's quite a few barbecue ones on there. And, you know, like you having, having worked quite a lot during all the time I've had both the lads have been kind of involved in Curium and it's small businesses have their ups and downs. It's just helped me to be present and, kind of, it's a bit of a trigger to go about, right, kids check in, family check in, mum has her mum in that time of things. So that's how, that's how I.

That's why I'm very passionate about it.

PJ Ellis (24:46)

and you physically remove that device from your space to enable that.

Andy Dawson (24:50)

Yeah, I've tried that. must admit, I'm very much work in progress. I've tried the, have your phone in the same room when you sleep. I use my phone for my alarm. When I'm trying to do, lock myself away and do some work. I chuck my phone on the sofa, put it on silent. That means I missed loads of calls. So apologies to everyone for that. But again, I think I believe in the importance of kind of deep work. So I'm very much still at

50 plus odd years work in progress. You know, I might be getting a little bit better at this sort of stuff, but I get caught in the trap as well. You know, I'm sadly not able to sit here and say I've got the answer, but I'm very conscious of the problem.

PJ Ellis (25:26)

And if you have that hindsight, well, we've got that hindsight and I don't think me or you will be fathers to any new kids moving forwards. But if we could go again, a lady called Catherine Hyde, she won't have a go at me for saying this because she said it publicly yesterday on LinkedIn. Catherine Hyde, she's a lawyer, very, very lovely lady, clever lady. She's gone on her own. She's done all the high flying legal firms, but now she's on her own. And she said yesterday that

her kids to think daughters, yeah daughters I believe. They will not have access to social media until they're 16. They will not have a phone that has internet access until they're think 13. And I think they're about 10 or 11 I think. And it was actually what she's found happens is that they're not getting sort of outed at school for not having a phone because...

haven't got the phone to be outed on because you're always on. These kids' dramas are happening from 3.30am to bedtime nowadays when it never was the case back at school. It's almost forcing them into play, make believe. If you had your time again, would you do something similar?

Andy Dawson (26:26)

Yeah.

I think we were really tempted to, and there's probably a couple of things I'd say to that. Firstly, I'd share a reflection of having over the years, the boys have been lying on sunbeds in the sun, but they've covered themselves with a towel because the sun reflects on the screen so they can't see what they're watching. So, right? Bad, right. The other thing is kids need to be bored. If you might, yeah. I remember growing up and it was...

PJ Ellis (26:50)

Yeah, that's what she said.

Andy Dawson (26:55)

either sit home and watch not a lot on telly. there's no kind of devices, no games or go up to the woods, and go with a load of friends and just build swings, build dams, get up to all sorts of good fun. so I think boredom is a really important thing. ⁓ would I, would I do the same thing? I definitely try and have more discipline around it. I'm quite strong with the kids around mealtime and stuff. No phones.

Um, got to eat together. Uh, and I guess that's one thing I'm pleased of having done as you all got, you know, got to eat together whenever you possibly can. It's the most important time of the day for me. Um, even a breakfast, you know, quick snacks, quick breakfast before they go to school or kind of a dinner that gives connection. Um, but I think yeah, hats off to her. That's, know, I think there's many of us who, who, kind of wished we'd brought in more discipline early on. What about you?

PJ Ellis (27:44)

Yeah.

Yeah, again, mate, I think she said it was, you know, it's not without challenge. But equally, they do have access to iPads and stuff. So they've got the tablets, but they're not online. So they use like, you know, educational tools that you can get through. So they're not completely living in non-digital world, if that makes sense. Although as Tracy Westall said, that it's probably better moving forward that we don't try and...

suggest as a digital world and as normal world, this is just the world, isn't it? I think I would definitely install a little bit more discipline. think when I would, and this is all around the time that I never gave my kids. So I have, I probably only got one regret in life really. And that is the first eight years of my son's life. I was doing far too much, giving away far too much time into dreams and people that never were going to be fulfilled or, you know, respected me and what have you.

Andy Dawson (28:09)

Yeah, it is what it is.

PJ Ellis (28:35)

and negated the time that I should have been putting into my son. And whilst I was doing that, to make it easier to be a dad, I suppose I was throwing the iPad at them when we were going for lunch or dinner. And albeit I was trying to sort of frame that life that they led around those devices around time, know, making sure they only had it for a certain amount of time or, you know, making sure the parental controls were on. They still were living that life whereby they were just scrolling and, you know,

being dictated to. So I do regret that.

Andy Dawson (29:05)

How have you changed now then? So obviously you've got that learn. How was it today?

PJ Ellis (29:08)

Yeah.

So I'm a big believer of eating together. So we eat together as much as we can. when we don't eat together, it's our fault basically because me and my wife are either hosting a dinner or whatever. We're away from the house. When we're together, we always try and eat together. No phones at the table. And I'm a little bit more controlling. And I think that still works. I think that sort of

down approach to parenting can help. I don't want to be that dictator. I'm quite a liberal parent. think actually without knowing, I hope that in 20 years' time, the data will suggest some sort of a liberal approach to parenting will be helpful for that child to form their own opinions and stuff. But yeah, I'm just very conscious of what they're doing online because I know full well no matter how much parental control I set up,

you Blake will still find a video fed to him of an elephant killing a man. You know what mean? It's just like random sort of stuff that...

Andy Dawson (30:07)

is, right, his is, is, is one, can't disclose the company. Okay. But there's a, a large global technology company and you know, they have kind of those teams who kind of have to filter content. I can't remember the name of the team, basically to all the images that come through and within that company, that is the highest level of stress and burnout of any team in that, in that entity, just because of.

PJ Ellis (30:22)

Yeah, like profanity and all that sort of thing.

Andy Dawson (30:33)

You know, everything that comes through huge high turnover people because they can't cope with the pressure and the stress of what they see and kind of have to deal with. and that's kind of being well researched. So there's, there's a lot of stuff being kind of fed in. It's like food, isn't it? You know, it's like continually eating junk food. You're right. You could have a balance. can't, you can't have one or the other. don't think I think Tracy was right in what she said. I think it's a, it's a new world. the world, the world has flipped, but it's just for me.

bit like saying about strengths, you know, having complimentary strengths, it's everything's about balance and it's difficult to get. It's difficult. Let's remember it is difficult to don't beat yourself up about it.

PJ Ellis (31:08)

it

Yeah,

it is. There was a real harrowing case of, again, I won't say the name because I might get it wrong, but it literally changed the law. I think it was the Child Safety Act. Basically, some poor young girl had scrolled through whatever platform it was, clicked on something. I think the call to action was, you feeling alone or something? One of these, clicks on it. And then that journey, the algorithm that spat out this sort of journey,

sort of led to educational tools about how to kill yourself. And she did, and she did, unfortunately. And I don't think there's any way of controlling that to a point. There is a responsibility of these big social media platforms to control that a little bit better. But equally, I can understand that the people that are being asked to control that are being asked every day, day in, day out, to look at content. I remember as a lawyer, I had to do my training and part of that was criminal law training.

Andy Dawson (31:44)

to change.

PJ Ellis (32:06)

And when we were on a murder case, I had to look at the murder photographs. And to know I had to look at that was the most harrowing thing, know, seeing a guy, yeah, whatever. And they're seeing this all day, day in, day out. It's not even, you know, it could be live people harming, well, I won't go into it, but yeah, it's a scary world. you know, sometimes I wish that social media didn't exist, but actually look at the tool we're using now to start lovely conversations, you know.

Andy Dawson (32:09)

Most of the time.

Well,

yeah, exactly. it is, let's get back to it. It's about balance, isn't it? So it's about trying to find that balance. again, going back to it's not for me, you or anyone to take what the balance is. It's about how do we, how do we find that for ourselves? And it's not, and again, I'll go back to the point. It's okay to know that things aren't easy. It's okay. So it's difficult. So therefore give that context of it's not easy and it's difficult and then do your best.

We've all the best.

PJ Ellis (32:56)

Yeah, you know what, mate,

chimp paradox, right? They're talking about setting baseline cornerstone thoughts to then dictate how you respond to things. And he said something, it caught my attention, like when adverts don't have any audio, you think, what's going on? And he said his assumption that he lives by his life is not fair. And I was like, I was like, you what? I said, what do you mean? I said, get it.

Andy Dawson (33:17)

Yeah, love it.

PJ Ellis (33:21)

And when he said, said, look, you know, if you accept that, it doesn't mean that you're going to be a mismog or, you know, hate the world or not be positive. It's like it allows you to put your energy in the right place because you you, you get, I don't know, what was his example? I can't remember exactly. Let's just say you go and order some food and you get home and the chips are missing from whatever it might be. So what? Life's unfair. You know, get on with it. Like, you know, don't let that ruin you. And I think there is, ⁓

Andy Dawson (33:42)

⁓ yeah. ⁓

PJ Ellis (33:49)

Yeah, I think there's something to be said with all the things that we said that leads into that set those baselines of what the world looks like and try and play with it as much as you can to do the best that you can. Let me leave you with this question, mate. We started with that confidence piece. Well, I don't think we started with it, but you said that, I think we might have that quote around confidence. It's not all about affirmations in the mirror. It's about clearly not being yourself.

Andy Dawson (33:58)

Yeah.

Now.

PJ Ellis (34:13)

I would class you as a confident person, right? Are you confident? Right? It's the first question. And if so, is this the confidence that you thought confidence looked like when you were younger? If that makes sense.

Andy Dawson (34:25)

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So it does make sense. So I am a natural introvert. So I, whenever I force myself and over the years, I've learned to force myself to do things like speak and, you know, networking events and that kind of thing. I've learned to do it, but I do need a rest afterwards. I do need a bit of my own time. And many, many people are like that. so

That's first off, you know, I'm introverted. I thought I used to be shy, but I think I've worked out I'm more introverted than shy. I also, you know, confident people for me back in the day used to be the ones surrounded by friends, always, you know, the jokes and the sense of attention. Well, for me, that's not the case. Uh, personally, I'm a bigger believer in you are the average of the five people you spend most of your time with. So, you know, I like, you know, fewer strong connections.

PJ Ellis (35:07)

Okay, yeah.

Andy Dawson (35:12)

better conversations. I'm not the life and soul of the party, whether I wanted to be or not. And I've become really, really comfortable with that. And, you know, I do stuff I'm comfortable doing. I don't try and be what I'm not. So that gives me a confidence. So I'd like to say I'm quietly confident and I back myself to get stuff done, but it's not

been an easy journey. And back when I was young, confidence was probably associated with, you know, the most popular popularity. And then when you look at, you look back and you see the lads who were the popular ones at school or in the cricket team or whatever it was. you know, I was, I was Diddy. I left school Diddy. I was about five foot three. I'm a bit bigger than that now, at age of 17. So was quite embarrassing.

PJ Ellis (36:02)

Hang hang hang

on. I think I remember your time. You were 5'3 at 17 and you are, you're 6'3 now, aren't you?

Andy Dawson (36:05)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Give us, give a take. Yeah. So I was one of, let's call it life's late developers, which. Embarrassing at the age of 17, right? Um, but time equalized it. So I'm a, look a bit younger than the lads who, who would looked 18 when they were 15, 16. So it all has its pros and cons and you, and you get there in the end. So that, you know, I, I struggled with a bit of confidence when I was younger. Um, but you kind of build a builder over time. Um, yeah, that's me. What about you? How would you answer that?

PJ Ellis (36:33)

You do,

Mate, what a lovely message that is to your kids, man. I hope you do deliver that in one way or another. They'll probably be like, oh, dad, But even if you get that, it's like, ooh, ooh. Yeah, just a thumb, innit? Just a thumb. You send them a lovely, like, oh, lovely son, it's amazing. I'm so proud of you, a thumb. Three weeks after you'd sent it. Yeah, mate, you know what? I always thought until very recently that confidence was that popularity contest that

Andy Dawson (36:45)

I'll text them.

PJ Ellis (37:01)

You know, you're the joker, you're the connector, you're the facilitator, you're the one that absorbs or gives off all that energy to enable others. And then you just retreat into an exhausted state for the next couple of days. So people would think I'm an extrovert. I am definitely not. I'm an introvert 100 % like in the sense that I am able to facilitate that energy when I need to, to suggest that I'm confident that that is born out of a bravado, like a facade that I've had.

since not being confident, socially awkward, not being able to look people in the eye, sought refuge in the library instead of playing football, just could not hold a conversation. And then my dad, and he wasn't saying this for like, you know, strictly saying it in the sense that he needed me to change, but he said, Peej, can be whoever you want now, when I went to university. And I thought that was, I had to change, I had to be something else. And actually what I've found that, and it's the perspective that I've overpaid for since

I lost mom and mom certainly overpaid for it. It's this gift of perspective now. I'm starting to care a little less, mate. It doesn't mean I don't care. I just care less about that sort of popularity contest. I know who my people are. I know who I get most good energies from and that's the confidence I now have. I mean, it's a brilliant thing, right? I don't know whether it leads into confidence, but I think it does a bit actually. There's a guy, he goes to the doctor. Doctor, doctor.

Andy Dawson (38:08)

Yeah. Yeah.

PJ Ellis (38:22)

Sounds like a joke, doesn't Well, it is a joke. It is a joke. Well, it is a joke. Doctor, doctor, I'm exhausted. I'm emotionally drained. I'm depressed. I don't know what to do. He said, mate, said, go to Coco the Clown's in town tonight. Go and have a look. He turned around and says, doctor, I am Coco the Clown. There we go. I mean, it's a pretty sad joke, but you get what I'm saying.

Andy Dawson (38:24)

Let's go.

Ha ha.

I

do. do. Yeah. Now, and I just, my, just a quick one, my equivalent of your go to the library story. Yeah. I used to, all, all the, ⁓ all the lads in this rugby team and everything, all my friends used to go to the park to meet the girls at lunchtime. I used to go to the chip shop and have chips and then go into school and have my lunch after that. So not only was I little, I got a little bit porky and very unfit, which just meant just made it even worse.

PJ Ellis (39:08)

bit poor.

Andy Dawson (39:12)

And I guess just to reflect on one thing you said there, not only people who give you energy or not, but also think about what are the things you do that give energy and take energy away. It's a nice little equation to have in your own mind about the things you get involved with or not, because sometimes we feel obliged to do what everyone else is doing, but yeah, so you get a lot of value from that or it exhausts you. But sometimes it's the other things that really

boost you and give you that confidence, help you to perform, which is important personally and professionally,

PJ Ellis (39:44)

100 % mate, think personally for me to wearing the shorts like physically and professionally like mom's always said, wear the shorts, Peej. Cause I've got rubbish legs basically. I've got serious amount of body dysmorphia, like it's ridiculous. didn't grow. So my dad and brother are six foot plus, I'm five, 10. And my legs, I've got the legs of a five foot three human and the torso and head of a six foot five human. So I'm pretty disproportionate. So as a result of that, I've always hated how I look.

So mom initially was physically, just wear the shorts, put the shorts on PJ, stop worrying. But now professionally, I find that if I do wear the shorts and I put myself into those situations where I never used to think I belonged or I was always nervous to put myself, I always find that I come out the back of it happy. No one cares about me as much as I think they do. Everyone's in their own stress loops. Everyone is, you know, I've got this brilliant photo, mate, right? And...

Me, Tim and Gary Poulton So Tim Andrews, know, Gary Poulton, I'm not too sure you do, but he was in The Apprentice back in the day. He'd be a good one on here actually, as would Tim. We're running a half marathon. So we're doing all the right things for charity, blah, blah, blah, fitness, whatever it might be, community. And we're dressed as nine foot green aliens, yeah. You've it, you've seen the photo, right? What's more important is that in that moment in time,

Andy Dawson (40:54)

I've seen it, I've seen the pictures.

PJ Ellis (41:00)

Although I was so stressed about, even though I was doing the right things from a community point of view, charity, fitness, I was obsessed with like my legs. Am I going to get the time I want? Will the alien deflate? Will people take the mick? And a photographer took that snapshot. There's hundreds of people around me watching and running and not one person, including the other two aliens, are looking at me. In that moment in time, no one gives a monkeys mate

Andy Dawson (41:26)

story.

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (41:28)

Get on

with your own life. Get out your own way. Play with passion, perspective, however we're to frame it. And be your own self. Be confident in your own self that you're good enough. Well, understand rather that the person you listen to, the voice you hear most is, and you can finish this off, whose voice do you listen to most? There we go, mucker And on that note, and on that note, that is our lesson today. Talk kindly to yourself, Be good to yourself.

Andy Dawson (41:45)

Your own

Hail to

that. Amen.

PJ Ellis (41:54)

Big yourself up.

Anyway, all right, mate, we'll listen. Talk to you soon.

Andy Dawson (42:00)

Yeah, all right, Bud, nice one.