Aoife O'Brien [00:00:02]:
Marijke, you're so welcome to the Happy at Work podcast. I'm so pleased to have you as my guest today. Do you want to let listeners know a little bit about you, your background, and how you got into doing what you're doing?
Marijke Kershaw [00:00:13]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So first of all, it's a pleasure to be here with you. So a little bit about me and and my background. So, I I currently work for a company called Mercer Talent Enterprise, And but the journey to get there has been a very, very long one. So I started out actually working in the FMCG industry. And I was working for a company you may know called Heinz selling tomato ketchup. Yes.
Marijke Kershaw [00:00:49]:
So I used to work as a trade category manager, category development controller, doing a lot of work with data. For those that live in the UK, if there was a end of tomato ketchup in a Sainsbury's or in a Tesco, then I would have been the one that decided that that should be there. I was also the one that would decide what the promotional uplifts or understand what the promotional uplifts were and and the, the impact of it. I
Fania Stoney [00:01:17]:
had
Marijke Kershaw [00:01:17]:
a bit of an epiphany, actually, through going on a leadership development program that that is not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. So I went on quite a journey of discovery to work out what does success mean for me? What does success look like for me? And I recognized that it came down to people. And, and so I did a coaching diploma and, and then moved into facilitation and and, learning as well. And so for the last 10 years, I've worked as a facilitator and coach. I did 8 years of freelance and, and then fell in actually fell in love with the organization that I'm working with now because of their culture and decided to to go back and work in an organization again. And I've been with Mercer Talent Enterprise, for the last 3 years, really focusing on development programs for them and also looking at succession and and high potential and and how people and understanding how people use their their strengths in the workplace as well. So that's sort of what we we focus on within the HR space. Along that journey, I also did some extra study and and, have been really specializing in organizational psychology.
Marijke Kershaw [00:02:44]:
And that's my background. Originally from New Zealand, based in Dubai, mom of 2 gorgeous children. So that's me.
Fania Stoney [00:02:53]:
I love it. And, Marika, you probably didn't know this about me, but that's a very similar background to me. I but I always worked on agency side in FMCG, Hines being one of my clients on more than one occasion in multiple parts of the world. So, yeah, that's my own background and not a dissimilar kind of epiphany. Is this really what I want to be doing? Went on to do a master's in organizational behavior, which I couldn't do organizational psychology because I didn't have the psychology background. But it's, you know, it's exactly the same master's degree, and I absolutely loved it. And it was like the data and the people side of stuff. So I think we're gonna have a really, really interesting conversation today.
Fania Stoney [00:03:38]:
If nothing but that entire transition from going from, you know, taking strengths that you maybe already have but weren't necessarily utilizing in them in the way that you wanted and applying them into a different situation. So maybe talk to us a little bit more about that journey. I'd love to uncover a little bit more about that whole decision process and and what that epiphany was, and maybe we can talk a little bit more then about strengths.
Marijke Kershaw [00:04:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, yes, so what what there was a few things that that led to this epiphany. The first was actually doing some, psychometrics. So I did the the Discovery Insights profile, which showed that I was very high on the people aspects of of work. And then it does a showing of the skills that you use at work, and they were all my my lowest strengths, were the skills that I was using the most at work. So that was interesting for me.
Marijke Kershaw [00:04:42]:
And I also looked around, and I was very successful. And so I was promoted to being a a category development controller, but I would look around and I would see some of my colleagues who loved data, and just the the energy and the joy and the interest that they had in it. And I had this realization that I'm I'm only ever going to be average or mediocre in this area of work, and that I was coming home from work absolutely exhausted every single day. And that actually led to I'm not sure if I got to the point of burnout Mhmm. But just feeling gray inside. Yeah. And getting no joy from the the work that I was doing. And part of the leadership development program that I I went on at the say around the same time talked about success.
Marijke Kershaw [00:05:53]:
And this concept of success means different things to different people. And that if you're not if you're not in the role that you feel is best for you, then you're taking up that role for someone who would potentially really love it.
Fania Stoney [00:06:10]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:06:10]:
So this idea of having the courage to actually explore what it is that you really love doing and trying to to understand that so that you can job craft or, move your career in that direction because that will ultimately mean that you are, you know, you can be at your best in that role. That you can come to work and sort of thrive within what you were doing. And that concept really stuck with me. And so I sort of went down the just started exploring, in that area and, you know, mind mapping to find out what are the what are the things that I really love in in life and what what excites me and engages me, and it always came back to people.
Fania Stoney [00:07:15]:
In what sense? You know, like, is it a particular area when it comes to people?
Marijke Kershaw [00:07:23]:
It so it is I love the relationship with people. So I love the relationship building and and and helping people, But it's also a fascination with how you know, this idea of growth and potential and the the idea of people reaching that potential as well, and raising conscious awareness of who they are Mhmm. And connecting back in with what makes them unique. And, you know, reconnecting or helping people reconnect with that yeah, the core of who they are and using that as that strength and gaining confidence from knowing that about themselves through raising that that awareness. I learned that through going on a a coaching course. And so I got sent to honor as part of this leadership development program as well, I got sent on a one day course to be a, a more effective line manager. Sorry. Someone is calling me.
Marijke Kershaw [00:08:47]:
Is that alright if I just pause it and alright. Just stop it or turn on silent. I didn't realize it was. But but, yes, we wanna start there. I don't know if you paused and cut. Sorry.
Fania Stoney [00:09:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. We edited it all, so it's fine. No problem.
Marijke Kershaw [00:09:06]:
Oh, good.
Fania Stoney [00:09:07]:
No problem. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I forgot to say that at the start.
Marijke Kershaw [00:09:10]:
Yeah. So I
Fania Stoney [00:09:13]:
So you were sent on yeah. So you did coaching as part of this, leadership development program, and it was kind of more about how to understand how to be a better leader Line manager.
Marijke Kershaw [00:09:26]:
Line manager. Okay. Yeah. It was the how do you be how do you be a more effective line manager? And the the that concept of everyone is 100% whole, and it is about removing the the barriers for them to be able to reach their potential. And that's I realized that is what really lit my fires, when when working with and thinking about people.
Fania Stoney [00:10:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it I've kind of I I feel like I've sort of had not a dissimilar journey in that when I was working, I was working in an area where it was like, okay, I'm doing an okay job, but I'm the kind of person if I'm doing a job, I want to do a really excellent job because that's those are the kind of standards that I strive for. And I wasn't in a position where I could really work fully to all of the strengths that I've built up over my career and my natural abilities and doing this role. And I just got to a stage where I was like, I I don't wanna do it anymore. And I went on and I did coaching qualification as well, and then I did my masters. And when I was doing the masters, it was everything coming together.
Fania Stoney [00:10:45]:
It was the data and the people side of things and understanding that. And, you know, I've done several bits of research over the years around potential and understanding people's potential. I did a a not so scientific poll on LinkedIn a few years ago, but I was so surprised even for myself that it was in the 80% something 80% 80 something percent, like, maybe 85, 87% of people said that they didn't feel like they were reaching their full potential at work. And I suppose that's why I went on and I created this podcast to talk about these kinds of things that I think we really, really need to talk about at work. You know, if you're working to your strengths, you are much happier at work and people stay in those situations, I think, for a long time as well. Yeah. Not wanting to change, being afraid. Like, there's so many justifiable reasons for people to stay in the situation that they're in.
Fania Stoney [00:11:41]:
And I suppose maybe both of us have that same message that it's not you know, there are other options. There are other options for you out there if you choose to open your mind a little bit and understand a little bit more.
Marijke Kershaw [00:11:57]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And if yeah. If I was to give anyone advice, it would be to focus on and really understanding your strengths. And strengths, as we were talking about before, they're they're not things that you are good at. Right? That it's not about comp competence. You can be very good at an area that brings you no joy whatsoever. And so when we talk about strengths, it's it's this idea of, well, or or thinking about is is what makes you stronger.
Fania Stoney [00:12:35]:
Yes.
Marijke Kershaw [00:12:36]:
And in mister talent enterprise, we always talk about the 3 a's. So these we talk about things being your signature strengths. They're the things that are really unique to you, and these are things that energize you, things that are essential to who you are as a person and are actually effortless for you to do. And because these strengths are effortless for you, there's sometimes you don't even realize there are strengths. Mhmm. It's it's about having that awareness of, okay, what is just something I can do that energises me, that feels like it has to be essential to who I am as a person? And then once you've recognized that and understand it, it's like, well, how do I then bring that into my everyday work?
Fania Stoney [00:13:33]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:13:34]:
And and focus on those strengths rather than trying to we always talk also about allowable weaknesses. Yeah. So I think in the workplace, we we're very clear on what our weaknesses are, and we'll put things in place to fix our weaknesses. But I wanna turn that on its head and say, you also need to think about your strengths and build development plans on those areas of strengths that you've got as well. Yeah. Because that's the pathway to excellence. Mhmm. You just focus on weaknesses and trying to build those up to where your natural strengths may be, then you've got, you know, your your average across the board.
Marijke Kershaw [00:14:15]:
If you look at it of going, okay, so that's an allowable weakness. That's not something I'm particularly good at, but there's other people in my team who are. So I can use their strengths Yeah. As well and use my team's strengths. And I'm gonna focus on on areas such as, you know, being the person who who understands relationships and builds relationships. I'm empathy is a big skill of mine. I'm gonna learn more about empathy and and how I can utilize this empathy in the workplace. That then becomes your signature difference within the workplace, but also that real strength in an area of excellence.
Marijke Kershaw [00:14:54]:
And so it's building competence in an area that you're naturally inclined towards. Yeah. Oh, I
Fania Stoney [00:15:02]:
love that. There's so much that I want to reflect back on in that. I know before we started talking, we talked about this concept that, like, I read something recently that talked about strengths not as something exactly as you said, something necessarily that you're good at. It's not just about that. It's about something that makes you feel strong. So and also this idea that sometimes we don't know what our strengths are because it comes so easily and naturally to us that we don't even realize. Kind of a random example that that comes to my mind when I think about strengths is, if you've ever done an escape room, I love doing escape rooms. And I did one with my friends one time and I was like, oh, well, that thing, it connects to that thing over there.
Fania Stoney [00:15:48]:
And my friend is like, how did you do that? I said, what did you mean? Like, was that not, like, completely obvious that those two things were connected? So clearly, that's something that is a strength of mine that I take for granted, that I didn't know that other people don't have that strength. I know it's kind of a random example, but these kinds of things happen all the time. And I think if you just start noticing those things, like what are people coming to you for to ask you questions about Yep. What do people say, oh my god. How did you do that so quickly or so easily or so naturally or whatever it might be? I think it's so, it it's so important to notice those kinds of things. And I suppose the the next step is how do we make that transition once we understand a little bit more about what are our strengths? And maybe we'll come on to, like, uncovering what those are, but how do you then once you uncover what those strengths are, how do you make the transition into, okay, I want to start using these strengths
Marijke Kershaw [00:16:43]:
more
Fania Stoney [00:16:43]:
in in the work that I do on a day to day basis?
Marijke Kershaw [00:16:47]:
Yeah. And that that's the challenge. Right? That's the recognition that and this is what happened, you know, in hindsight, it's an amazing thing because I only realized this,
Fania Stoney [00:16:59]:
2020 vision. Hindsight. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:17:01]:
I know. But looking back, there was that realisation that actually I have these, you know, that I'm not utilising my strengths in the the work that I'm doing.
Fania Stoney [00:17:14]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:17:16]:
And going on that journey to to find the strengths and then actually, well, how do I put that in practice? And then how do I job craft? And the so and that's it. So it was it came down to, for me, whilst I was at Heinz and I hadn't built up the, the experience or that the courage actually also to do a career change, I started job crafting.
Fania Stoney [00:17:45]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:17:46]:
Role crafting to say, well, I know that I have these areas that I'm really interested in, around developing people and facilitation. And so any training course that I went on, I would go off and I'd talk to the person who was at the front of the room and be like, how did you get here? Yes. What did you do?
Fania Stoney [00:18:10]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:18:10]:
How do I get where you are? Because I I know that this is going to be utilizing my strengths and what I'm really interested in, what I get excited about. And then I started creating training courses for Heinz on areas that I was interested in as well. And once I got my coaching qualification, I then started coaching people in Heinz. So women who were rejoining back, after maternity leave and new graduates coming in to the the organization that seemed to be struggling a bit, and doing that on top of my, you know, my day job as well. To build up that confidence and that experience to then do the the career change, which I I liken to moving a massive tanker ship. So it's not going to happen quickly.
Fania Stoney [00:19:08]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's not that agile. It's kinda like No.
Marijke Kershaw [00:19:11]:
Okay. There's Really not.
Fania Stoney [00:19:13]:
Slow moving. Yeah. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:19:15]:
So there's a little pay a little bit of patience there as well in in in that respect. But it is one of the best decisions, and and best things that have that I've ever actually done from a a career perspective is recognising that I wasn't in the right place, knowing and working out what my strengths are and then and then moving them. Yeah. I'd love to pick up
Fania Stoney [00:19:39]:
on this, something that you shared a little not too long ago about weaknesses and allowable weaknesses because both of us are probably from that era where early career it was all about focusing on your weaknesses and overcoming your weaknesses. And I suppose from my perspective and from the research that I've done and from my Happier at Work framework, which one of those core elements is focusing on strengths, it's so positive to see that we've kind of moved away from the whole, oh, you need to overcome your weaknesses. And I did read an analogy not too long ago about, so if I think the analogy was about running. And so if you are going against someone who is an elite runner and you're just average or you're not that good at it, then you're competing against someone who is really, really good at that. And no matter how many times you try and build on something that you're just not that good at, it you're never going to reach that level. Whereas if you find something that you are so at home doing, that you're so, like, so naturally good at and gives you, like, those three things that you said. They energize you, it's essential to your being, and it feels effortless to you, and you focus on that. And getting I think the the other thing they were talking about was, like, if you got even 1% better at doing that, it's it's much more effective than getting 1% better at doing something that you're only average at.
Fania Stoney [00:21:06]:
So really focusing on the strengths. But I love also this idea of the allowable weaknesses, and I talk about working with people who have complementary strengths, people who have strengths that you don't have, and you can try you know, you can find a way to work really, really well together with the acknowledgment that you both bring something unique to the table.
Marijke Kershaw [00:21:27]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think there's something I want to add to that, which is a a little bit different from weaknesses. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Is is blind spots.
Marijke Kershaw [00:21:39]:
Yes. And so we've got strengths. And when we overuse strengths, then that can be a blind spot Yeah. Where it actually is having a detrimental impact.
Fania Stoney [00:21:54]:
Yes.
Marijke Kershaw [00:21:55]:
A part of also knowing what you have a real something that is really essential to you as a person, it means that it can sometimes, there'll be behaviors that you're engaging in that other people might have an have an impact with because you're so you're almost too much
Fania Stoney [00:22:17]:
Yes.
Marijke Kershaw [00:22:18]:
In that area. Yeah. Yeah. And as an example, there is and I'll talk about it a little bit. So we at the at the Mercitalent Enterprise, we actually do a psychometric, and we've designed a psychometric that is based on positive psychology, and it is based on strengths. And this is one thing that really attracted me, to working with Mercia Talent Enterprises. It was so connected with my values and focusing on strengths and that importance. But one of the strengths that they measure as on part of it is energy.
Marijke Kershaw [00:22:55]:
And if you are a 5 in energy, so you've got a signature strength in energy, you will walk into a room and everyone will know about it.
Fania Stoney [00:23:03]:
Wow. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:23:04]:
You will be there and need to be the center of intention and, and everything is dramatic. And for some people, that's too much. Yeah. And for some people, they're like, oh, it's just you you drain me of energy, especially as someone who's quite introverted. Yes. I struggle with your being a 5, and energy. And part of recognizing and understanding your strengths is understanding, well, what is the impact on other people Mhmm. And on situations when I overuse the strength as well.
Marijke Kershaw [00:23:45]:
So it's knowing what your allowable weaknesses are, but also knowing your strengths and then what impact is that strength having.
Fania Stoney [00:23:55]:
Yeah. A lot of different impacts on different people. I always like to think of these things as we're on a spectrum. When I think about Myers Briggs and, again, when I did the masters, it was like, that's it's not the best tool to use, but it's, I think, it's an easy entry point for people to understand a bit more about their personality. So I usually, when I take that test, come come out as an introvert, but other introverts think that I'm an extrovert because I'm a bit more social. So to me, when when I think of those things, I don't think of it as boxes so much as it's a spectrum. And if someone is looking from their perspective, they're going to view so someone who's a one on the energy is gonna view someone who's a 5 on the energy as I don't want to be around that person because that takes too much of my energy. When I think of overusing strengths, curiosity, I think, is is one of my values.
Fania Stoney [00:24:48]:
It's one it's something that I, I suppose, really passionate about. Something why I do the podcast because I get to meet people. I get to connect with them. I get to ask them what I perceive to be really interesting questions. But ovaries and curiosity can potentially turn into nosiness then. You're like, oh, she wants to know everything. She wants to have her finger in all of the different pies, you know, that kind of thing. So it's I think it's interesting that idea of just being aware, having that self awareness that it's not just about utilizing the strength, but it's about the impact that that strength has on those other people around you.
Marijke Kershaw [00:25:23]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it it and, yeah, it goes back I'm so passionate about it, about just raising your self awareness.
Fania Stoney [00:25:32]:
Yes, yeah, yeah, totally.
Marijke Kershaw [00:25:33]:
You don't know, you don't know. And once you do know, you're like, okay, I'm a 5 on energy. There are some people that I need to die all that energy back, or there might be some situations where I need to consciously think about it. And there's other in other times where I'm like, this is going to be a great time where I can really tap into my strength and energy Yeah. As well.
Fania Stoney [00:25:58]:
Talk to me a little bit more about this psychometric tool that you've devised then.
Marijke Kershaw [00:26:03]:
Yeah. So, we I think it was created around I'm probably gonna get this wrong. Probably around 10 years ago. So it's been in the market market for 10 years. And 4 years ago, we got, the British went through BPS, British Psychological Society Accreditation. And so it's one of 4 tools in the psychometric area that, have that level of of validity as well. So that's for me, that's very exciting because it's saying and and you brought up Myers Briggs, and it's an interesting tool, based on on sort of type. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:26:51]:
But the validity of it is really low.
Fania Stoney [00:26:53]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The test retest. So I've taken it multiple times, and I get different results when I take it different times. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:26:59]:
Yeah. And so this is and going through the BPS process is saying the validity gene, the t three test is is really high and and and very strong with this, assessment. And it is based on the positive psychology, and it is looking at your your strengths at work. So it's looking at things like your your change areas of change, people, task, yourself, and it has 36 strengths that are really important to to the workplace. And through a 20 minute assessment, you can understand where your strengths are and also where your blind spots are, as well. So it will give you a summary of if you're a 5 in this area, this is what you're this is what could be happening.
Fania Stoney [00:27:53]:
Watch watch out for this.
Marijke Kershaw [00:27:54]:
And then also, what do you have to watch out for?
Fania Stoney [00:27:57]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:27:57]:
Right? And the same goes with with if you're a 1 in the area. And it's not saying 5 is better, one is worse, but as you say, it's on a continuum. So it's Yeah.
Fania Stoney [00:28:06]:
It's different. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:28:10]:
And it's we call it the it's called the thriving index. And it is based on, well, the and the way that it's used. They're saying, well, okay, how do I use now that I've got that self awareness of strengths, what next? And having a session or a reflection on, well, how can I then now use these strengths now that I know about them
Fania Stoney [00:28:32]:
in
Marijke Kershaw [00:28:32]:
the workplace to be able to to perform? And what we do as an organization, we our main area is assessments around high potential and succession. And we bring in the the thriving index and the strengths into looking at at high potential, and looking at, well, what does this actually mean in an organization as well? So, yeah, that's sort of
Fania Stoney [00:29:03]:
a I'm why is it Sorry. Is it fair to say that you can't not that you can't do it in isolation, but it's best to do this as part of a team so that you kind of understand each other's strengths and how maybe you complement each other and how you work together? Or it's like talk to me a little bit more about that.
Marijke Kershaw [00:29:21]:
Yeah. I I think it it works well at an individual level. Okay. And it works but it also works well as a at a at a team level as well and being able to share your results with the team's results and say, well, what what does this mean for us? Mhmm. And especially as a team leader, to know where your team's strengths lie
Fania Stoney [00:29:43]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:29:43]:
And who you go to and bring into projects because they've got, a strength in that area can can help with, you know, understanding the the work dynamics. But I'll give an example because it's also about how your strengths interact with each other and what that could mean. And I'll give an example of myself. So I am high in autonomy. I've got a 5 in autonomy. I'm very good at working by myself and just getting on and getting things done. I'm high in achievement. Mhmm.
Marijke Kershaw [00:30:21]:
I really want to achieve. And I'm also high in in mastery. So I want to master and get exceptionally good at whatever I am I'm doing. And what this can mean from a blind spot perspective is that because I want to achieve, I will take on probably more than I actually have time and space to do because I'm like, I love this idea of of, you know, getting things done.
Fania Stoney [00:30:51]:
That sounds familiar.
Marijke Kershaw [00:30:53]:
And then I want to do it really well
Fania Stoney [00:30:57]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:30:57]:
And and have this sort of perfectionist tendency to come in. Yeah. Mhmm. But I have autonomy, so I wanna do it by my and I just think
Fania Stoney [00:31:04]:
about it by myself.
Marijke Kershaw [00:31:05]:
Yeah. And so this and and it was really interesting seeing how these work together, because they're all strengths, great strengths on their own. But when they combine, it actually means that I can have a natural cycle of getting to a potential place of burnout. Yeah. Because I take on too much. I don't think about using my team because of this blind spot with autonomy, and I can just do it myself. And so recognizing that has is a game changer for me. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:31:39]:
Because I recognize when I'm getting into and I'm overusing these amazing strengths that I've got and I'm getting into a bit of a bind and I can stop it before it goes down into the spiral. Yeah. It was before I would get to the spiral. And I can say, right, Aisha, I need to reach out and ask people for help here.
Fania Stoney [00:31:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:31:57]:
And, and so that's great from an individual perspective. From a team perspective, it's, you know, recognizing those in my team that are significantly different from me. So I've got people on my team who are great at so I'm a I'm a one when it comes to systematic. So not particularly systematic in what I'll do. Very flexible. I've got 1 or 2 team members who are a 5 in systematic. Mhmm. And no structure, no detail, no planning.
Marijke Kershaw [00:32:32]:
And I find that we work really well together.
Fania Stoney [00:32:35]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:32:36]:
I will come with the ideas, I will be able to interact with the people, and then my colleague will will be able to keep me in line and make sure that the the systems and the processes and the detail in the back end is in place Yeah. So that we can deliver something really effective together. And so it's also noticing their strengths and valuing their strengths as well. But yeah.
Fania Stoney [00:33:04]:
Are are there times when, strengths might cause conflict? And and when I think of it, it's it's kind of similar to what you were talking about there. So it's like that that big picture thinking versus the detail where there might be a bit of conflict between someone who has all of these big ideas but doesn't necessarily have the strength to see the steps to implement them. And then you have someone else who's kind of almost trying to rein them in saying, this is a great idea, but actually that's gonna take us 5 years. Let's focus on the next year or something like that. So any any strengths that while complementary, may cause a little bit of conflict?
Marijke Kershaw [00:33:43]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And I think when when there are those big differences, there's always that that room for misunderstanding. Yeah. And room for that difference is just annoying me and slowing us down rather than that difference is adding value.
Fania Stoney [00:34:09]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:34:10]:
And what I found also with, you know, with with using the thriving index and with understanding the thriving index, it becomes less personal. So it's not this person
Fania Stoney [00:34:24]:
It's not a talk on an individual or their personality. It's like, these are the facts and this is how we can move forward.
Marijke Kershaw [00:34:31]:
Yeah. It's like, okay, so this person is just extremely systematic.
Fania Stoney [00:34:35]:
Yeah. I'm not. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:34:38]:
And then you've got that level of understanding that it's, yeah, it's not personal. It's not a personal attack on me, it's just who they are. Yeah. And then you become more understanding and and, yeah, have a little bit more tolerance.
Fania Stoney [00:34:57]:
You're like, ah, that's why they're like that, and it's not about me. And yeah. And so the conflict may arise because they're not just trying to be awkward. Yeah. Yeah. They're
Marijke Kershaw [00:35:08]:
just trying to be a
Fania Stoney [00:35:10]:
pain. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:35:11]:
Yeah. It's just
Fania Stoney [00:35:11]:
trying to be a pain. I'd love to know a little bit more then about using this for you mentioned about high potential and also succession planning. So I imagine those are quite closely linked, but you wanna talk about how how you can use that tool for those purposes? Because I know with a lot of my clients, even like the big global clients, we think they have this stuff figured out, but actually, it's a real area. Let's call it an area of opportunity for them because they don't have this stuff figured out yet.
Marijke Kershaw [00:35:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. And we've done, a lot of a lot of research in the area of high potential and what strengths are really important, for driving high performance within organizations, as well. And so there's been a lot of different analysis that our data scientists have been doing. And we've actually mapped, the strengths of that are in the thriving index against different, potentials. So the the drive potential, so that ability to be able to really drive ideas and and strategies through an an organization, or learning potential as well. So how how can a person, you know, learn on the job and and grow within the job as well? So there's strengths that match to these different, potential areas that we know drive the business forward. So, what we've found is that when we're looking at these, these areas so there's there's drive, there's learning, there's people, there's strategic potential, execution potential, and change potential.
Marijke Kershaw [00:37:02]:
These areas here really drive that performance of of the business. And then we've been able to map the strengths of people to these to these areas and created a, a potential model. Mhmm. Which an organization can go through a high potential assessment process. And this is the looking at so things like the Thriving Index, look at that innate potential.
Fania Stoney [00:37:39]:
Mhmm.
Marijke Kershaw [00:37:40]:
And then the innate potential goes into the sort of the that potential model, but then it's looking at the demonstrated potential okay. As well.
Fania Stoney [00:37:51]:
Yeah. Through,
Marijke Kershaw [00:37:53]:
things like role play case study interviews, And taking that in innate strengths and linking it with saying, well, actually, what is being demonstrated? Mhmm. I'm merging these two data points together to say, well, okay, this is what a a high potential looks like in your organization. Yeah. And then being able to show what that spread is Yeah. And where the development areas are as well. So the Yeah. The most important thing is then being able to take that data and say, well, what are
Fania Stoney [00:38:28]:
you going
Marijke Kershaw [00:38:29]:
to do with it?
Fania Stoney [00:38:30]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just about having it. It's about what action are you taking. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:38:35]:
Yeah. How are you what action are you taking? And so it's the the development programs and then the IDPs and individual development plans that come out the back of it as well. Yeah. So after they've gone through the high potential, assessments, it's really important to then have a session with each of the people that have gone through that those assessments and be back on what their strengths are. Be back on what came out of the the demonstrated potential and assessment centers. And then say, well, so what for you? Yeah. And how do you want to use this information to drive your career forward and drive your development forward? Looking at it from that 70, 20, 10 model as well, where 70% of it's on job, 20% social, 10% formal learning. And really, out when we're doing those IDPs, that's saying, what can you do in your day to day? And that's when we can go into conversations around role crafting or looking for gaining that experience that's going to help them drive their path within the organization and career?
Fania Stoney [00:39:46]:
Yeah. And, I mean, there's so so many more questions I have about all of this stuff. But my first one is whether each of those high potential areas is unique to each individual organization and or are there kind of a bit more generic, like this is what you need to succeed in work in general?
Marijke Kershaw [00:40:09]:
Yeah. So the the the innate potential, we we can we can map that to the different competencies that an an organization has got. But when we look at the sort of thinking about what are the strengths that are important in that organization, but we we're trying to steer away from that now and saying, well, our overall innate potential, this is what these are the strengths that really drive high performance from an innate potential perspective. And then the demonstrated potential is what's is is measured against their competency framework. So what are the behaviors and what are the competencies that you want to see within your organization? And then the assessment centers, the role plays, and the case studies will assess against those behaviors and try and show those behaviors and give the the the candidates and the people going through the assessment center the opportunity to demonstrate those those behaviors. And that's where the organizational element comes in.
Fania Stoney [00:41:25]:
What I love about this is that it's scientific because what I often see with my clients is it's very subjective how they decide these things. I've been in those rooms myself where it's you have a conversation, and it's almost like an argument between senior leaders of, no, I think that person and you compare people to each other, but you compare them on just a very generic basis as opposed to in these very specific areas that is required to excel at the next level. So this is what I love particularly about that tool, that both from the organization perspective, being able to acknowledge and recognize that.
Marijke Kershaw [00:42:02]:
Yeah.
Fania Stoney [00:42:02]:
And then from the individual perspective, having that clear path of this is what my next step is. I'm being recognized as someone who is a high potential because we often talk about what that what that means, but it's not really or we often talk about it in more generic terms, but we don't necessarily define, well, how what does that actually mean in our organization? Yeah. Anything else to share on sorry. Did you want to say something?
Marijke Kershaw [00:42:28]:
Oh my god. I've got so much to share. Yes. I'm like, yes. It's and and this is what gets me excited about it is that it takes something that is inherently subjective
Fania Stoney [00:42:38]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:42:39]:
And makes it as objective as possible. Mhmm. And it tries to take the bias out of the process. Mhmm. And we and sometimes we get quite a bit of pushback, of people who've who've come out really well within the assessments because the manager or the person that, that is running it is was not expecting it.
Fania Stoney [00:43:04]:
Oh, interesting. Yeah. So this is someone who's kind of almost hidden potential. Maybe they didn't get along with their manager or maybe their manager wasn't coaching them or or they were in maybe a role that didn't allow them to work to their fully to their strengths.
Marijke Kershaw [00:43:20]:
Absolutely. And that's what we call so you've got hypos
Fania Stoney [00:43:23]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:43:25]:
And then you've got shypos. Okay. Okay. So this is the hidden talent or people who might be a little bit more under the radar that can come out through this process. And that's one one reason why we always say, and and when we think about who's going to actually go through the assessments, and have an open enrollment part of it, rather than have managers put people forward
Fania Stoney [00:43:54]:
Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:43:56]:
Open it up to anyone who is interested Yeah.
Fania Stoney [00:43:59]:
Within So anyone who has a level of ambition essentially can put themselves forward rather than the managers picking and choosing who they see are the high potentials, which brings back to subjectivity again
Marijke Kershaw [00:44:11]:
Yeah. And bias.
Fania Stoney [00:44:11]:
That they can.
Marijke Kershaw [00:44:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. Because it is about finding those sort of hidden stars within the organization as well.
Fania Stoney [00:44:19]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:44:20]:
And saying, well, how do we then support and develop them
Fania Stoney [00:44:24]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:44:24]:
To reach potential that they've got Yeah. Within the organization. And, yeah, that then naturally leads on to succession
Fania Stoney [00:44:36]:
Yeah. As
Marijke Kershaw [00:44:37]:
well, because then you're saying, well, who is this this pool of of high potential that we've got. And then looking at and succession's slightly different because it's about business continuity. Mhmm. And do we have and are we developing the 10 the talent within our organization to then take on these roles that are critical to the organization? So it's not just about, the top jobs Yeah. When we talk about succession planning. It's about thinking what roles are critical to an organization.
Fania Stoney [00:45:16]:
Yeah. And being able to define that as well.
Marijke Kershaw [00:45:19]:
Yeah. It is a a piece that we do around well, our understanding and doing critical role scoring around, you know, what what impact does this role have, what skills and and other unique skills that that are needed for this role as well to define what roles should actually be within that succession process, and need a depth of of talent. And and we always call it the bench. Right? The, understanding the bench depth that you've got for each of these roles and where you might be, a little bit exposed and thinking about, well, how can you develop and ensure that that there is a deeper bench strength in these areas and in and in these different departments as well?
Fania Stoney [00:46:06]:
Do you mean that you have people who could potentially take on that role should
Marijke Kershaw [00:46:11]:
Yeah.
Fania Stoney [00:46:11]:
The person leave or something happen or whatever it might be?
Marijke Kershaw [00:46:15]:
Yeah. Exactly. That you have sufficient
Fania Stoney [00:46:16]:
number of people who could potentially step into that role Yeah. With those strengths? Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:46:23]:
Using a sort of a and that I'm using sport sport humility. Yeah. The goal of bench. So, you know, if if you, I'm thinking about from a football team. Right? So if you if your goalie gets injured, how many goalies do you have on the bench that can or how many people do you have on the bench? They may not be in the goalie position right now, but could move to that position and perform and be able to cover that spot. Yeah. Yeah. So that you can keep playing.
Fania Stoney [00:46:52]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, I have so many different questions, like, you know, and I'm thinking, what's the first step that people need to take? But also, how do you do this? So I've come from global organizations, but being small in a small part of a global organization, how do you start to implement those kinds of changes in in an organization that's global and should be doing this at a global level, but, actually, how do you start implementing that locally as well?
Marijke Kershaw [00:47:24]:
A very good question. And so I think there is yeah, and I'm not actually sure how to answer it. So there's a whole process that, that you go with, but it, it starts by first identifying those roles within the organization, be it at a local level. Yeah. Or be it at a global level. And then for a succession perspective, then it would be, would be nominating people. It would be who within the organization is within that sort of band
Fania Stoney [00:48:06]:
Mhmm.
Marijke Kershaw [00:48:07]:
That we think is a natural successor. And having, you know, about a good it wouldn't be just one person that you'd want to be going through that process because they are the natural successor, but what is the 4 or 5 or 6 people sitting underneath this role?
Fania Stoney [00:48:26]:
Yeah. That could step up, maybe.
Marijke Kershaw [00:48:28]:
That could step up. Yeah. Yeah.
Fania Stoney [00:48:30]:
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:48:31]:
And so you'd need to the way that we do it is we, meet with the person who's the incumbent, who's in that role, and understand what actually what is the role and create what we call a success profile. So what is success in this role? And then that success profile is used to create a, you know, an assessment of to say, how do we measure the experience? And, and also that we look at potential as well, experience and potential of this person to say they are ready within a year, ready with 1 to 2 years. What development do they need to do?
Fania Stoney [00:49:19]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:49:21]:
Again, it goes back down to really understanding for those people that are on the bench, as we like to say, what is it that they need to do to keep developing those skills so that they are really as and when
Fania Stoney [00:49:37]:
the opportunity ready to to do that. Brilliant. Yeah. Marijke, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?
Marijke Kershaw [00:49:50]:
Being happier at work, I think, means to me being able to turn up to work and be able to be yourself, and be able to use those unique strengths that you have got, every day. Yeah. Because that, for me and I've been on both sides. I've been in a role where I was not the right fit for that role.
Fania Stoney [00:50:23]:
Yeah.
Marijke Kershaw [00:50:24]:
Felt the the grayness, and I am now in a role that I'm using my strengths on a day to day basis. And, yes, it's it's full color. Yeah.
Fania Stoney [00:50:38]:
Love it. And if people want to reach out to you, if they find if they want to know more about what Mercer Talent Enterprise does, what's the best way or what's the best place they can do that?
Marijke Kershaw [00:50:50]:
Yeah. I mean, we're we're, of course, all over LinkedIn. So please feel free to search for for Mercer Talent Enterprise on LinkedIn. We also have, of course, our, Mercer Talent Enterprise website. Yeah. Or also feel free to to reach out to to me, yeah, on on LinkedIn as well. I think those would be the the best options through our website through LinkedIn.
Fania Stoney [00:51:16]:
Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time. I think we probably could have gone down loads and loads of different avenues, but I so enjoyed this conversation. And I'm definitely thirsty for more and understanding about my own strengths and how to use that information, but I'm sure listeners are as well that they're like, okay. What what do I need to do next? How can I understand more about my own strengths? So thank you so much for your time today. Really, really appreciate it.
Marijke Kershaw [00:51:43]:
My pleasure. I I love talking about it, so it's such such an honor.