1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,820 Kevin Mako: Hello, product innovators. Today, we learn how to sell a new consumer product on TikTok from a 20-year PPC marketing expert. 2 00:00:07,420 --> 00:00:13,060 Kevin Mako: This is the Product Startup Podcast, a show to learn from top leaders in hardware product development, 3 00:00:13,260 --> 00:00:16,560 Kevin Mako: prototyping, manufacturing, product selling, and everything in between. 4 00:00:16,740 --> 00:00:21,360 Kevin Mako: Hosted by Kevin Mako, the leading expert on product development for hardware startups. 5 00:00:22,260 --> 00:00:25,960 Kevin Mako: Welcome back, everyone. Today I'm very excited to introduce Nikki Lindgren to the show. 6 00:00:26,380 --> 00:00:29,980 Kevin Mako: Nikki is the founder and managing partner at Pennock, a PPC digital advertising agency. 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,900 Kevin Mako: Specifically for consumer product brands. She has managed hundreds of product sales campaigns 8 00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:39,840 Kevin Mako: online with over $20 million in ad spend per year. Today, Nikki is going to share some valuable 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,020 Kevin Mako: knowledge for inventors, startups and small manufacturers on the types of content ads to use on TikTok 10 00:00:44,020 --> 00:00:48,560 Kevin Mako: for selling hardware products, how to use a new TikTok store, best practices for the effectiveness 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:54,440 Kevin Mako: of ads, and the structure of specific content in those ads so that you can sell big. Now on the episode. 12 00:00:56,580 --> 00:01:01,520 Kevin Mako: This show is produced by Mako Design, the original firm providing end-to-end consumer 13 00:01:01,540 --> 00:01:05,760 Kevin Mako: or product development services tailored specifically to hardware startups, small 14 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:13,320 Kevin Mako: manufacturers, and inventors. Take your product from idea to store shelves at MakoDesign.com. Now on to the 15 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:14,949 Kevin Mako: episode. Nikki, welcome to the show. 16 00:01:14,949 --> 00:01:17,122 Nikki Lindgren: Thank you so much for having me, Kevin. 17 00:01:17,122 --> 00:01:18,480 Kevin Mako: We're looking forward to 18 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:25,140 Kevin Mako: talking to you today about selling a new hardware product on TikTok. TikTok, obviously, has blown up. 19 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:30,540 Kevin Mako: It's a big platform all around the world, not just for teen dances anymore. It is for all topics. 20 00:01:30,540 --> 00:01:36,200 Kevin Mako: and it is a massive, massive platform. It's also an incredible platform to get notoriety 21 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:41,820 Kevin Mako: and get eyeballs onto new inventions, new product ideas, new products that are coming to market. 22 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,060 Kevin Mako: So it's particularly relevant for the listeners that are developing, designing the next hottest, 23 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,960 Kevin Mako: latest, new consumer product. There's a lot of different ways that you can utilize various platforms. 24 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:57,100 Kevin Mako: And today, we're going to be talking about TikTok with an expert that's worked with millions of dollars 25 00:01:57,100 --> 00:02:00,520 Kevin Mako: of ad spend, countless amounts of brand, hundreds of products. 26 00:02:00,540 --> 00:02:06,040 Kevin Mako: on advertising across a variety of platforms, but is definitely an expert when it comes to TikTok 27 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:11,500 Kevin Mako: and selling direct to consumers on the TikTok platform. Before we get into all of that, 28 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,240 Kevin Mako: Nikki, just give us a bit of a history of how you got to be the success story that you are today. 29 00:02:15,820 --> 00:02:22,420 Nikki Lindgren: Yeah, absolutely. So I started in marketing really right out of college. I worked in-house and agency side 30 00:02:22,420 --> 00:02:26,880 Nikki Lindgren: in the fashion and lifestyle space. I was working for pottery barn, world market, here in the San 31 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:32,700 Nikki Lindgren: Francisco Bay Area. And all that experience kind of led me to be one of the first team members 32 00:02:32,700 --> 00:02:38,240 Nikki Lindgren: on the e-commerce store for World Market. So that was just a huge success story and lots of 33 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,980 Nikki Lindgren: opportunities to get exposed to different parts of digital that I wasn't getting at Pottery Barn. 34 00:02:42,980 --> 00:02:49,380 Nikki Lindgren: All that led me to be agency side, sometime in-house again, and finally just crafting our own agency. 35 00:02:49,380 --> 00:02:54,840 Nikki Lindgren: I think I had enough experience working on both sides to really understand what emerging brands were 36 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,760 Nikki Lindgren: looking for. And so we built our own shop four years ago. We're very small. There's 37 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,340 Nikki Lindgren: just 10 full-time employees. And we're really dedicated to helping our brands grow on their 38 00:03:04,340 --> 00:03:09,120 Nikki Lindgren: e-commerce platform first and foremost. But we're doing a lot on Amazon in like Walmart 39 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:15,400 Nikki Lindgren: Wayfair ads these days as well. Most recently, obviously TikTok has been a huge win for us in the 40 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,880 Nikki Lindgren: emergence of TikTok shops, which I believe is like a month and a half old at this point in US, 41 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:24,820 Nikki Lindgren: has also really opened a lot of new doors for us in terms of how to mix me. 42 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:30,060 Kevin Mako: media onto TikTok. All right on. Great history. And I'm really excited to learn today 43 00:03:30,060 --> 00:03:34,940 Kevin Mako: about, and let's start big picture. Let's start looking at it to understand like what TikTok is 44 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:39,400 Kevin Mako: does a platform and how does it apply to a hardware startup? And then what are some of the options within 45 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,780 Kevin Mako: the platform to start moving product, making stales, building brand recognition, 46 00:03:44,020 --> 00:03:49,980 Kevin Mako: using TikTok to actually grow a new hardware brand. Yeah, I think the first thing people brands 47 00:03:49,980 --> 00:03:54,440 Nikki Lindgren: I should be thinking about is the type of assets that they have available. So when we're talking about 48 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:59,060 Nikki Lindgren: any paid media platform these days, but particularly paid. We really need something that is 49 00:03:59,060 --> 00:04:05,100 Nikki Lindgren: platform endemic. And so having assets that are really low-fi, really kind of shot on phones is 50 00:04:05,100 --> 00:04:09,360 Nikki Lindgren: what we're looking for when we think about TikTok and also user-generated content, 51 00:04:09,460 --> 00:04:15,520 Nikki Lindgren: creator content. So if the brand we're working with and the hardware product is not really big 52 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,440 Nikki Lindgren: in those lanes, we would maybe think about building the plan of getting this creator-led content 53 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,900 Nikki Lindgren: out first organically on TikTok before loading ads there. 54 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:28,680 Nikki Lindgren: But I think that's one thing we've helped a couple brands with is get onto the platform 55 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,400 Nikki Lindgren: when they don't have assets that really apply to the platform. So the first thing is really 56 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,280 Nikki Lindgren: understanding the type of audience you're targeting there to make sure you're producing assets 57 00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:40,720 Nikki Lindgren: that are going to be engaging before anything else. That's interesting and powerful for a hardware 58 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:46,280 Kevin Mako: startup too because it's relatively cheap and easy to do user-generated content. The type of content 59 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:51,620 Kevin Mako: that we're talking about here for TikTok is something that you as the inventor, as the founder, can do 60 00:04:51,620 --> 00:04:56,140 Kevin Mako: yourself. There's a ton of different things you could do. You can do works throughout the development 61 00:04:56,140 --> 00:05:00,960 Kevin Mako: process. You could do works on what you're doing with the factory. You could do just talking about your 62 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,620 Kevin Mako: product and some of the benefits or some of the pain points that it's helping solve for some of the 63 00:05:04,620 --> 00:05:08,600 Kevin Mako: opportunities that's creating for some of your startups. And there's dozens of other things you can 64 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,680 Kevin Mako: talk about. But the important thing to note what Nikki is saying here, especially on the 65 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,940 Kevin Mako: TikTok platform, you don't need fancy creative marketing budgets in order to have 66 00:05:17,940 --> 00:05:21,140 Kevin Mako: great content that performs well on the TikTok platform. 67 00:05:21,620 --> 00:05:51,600 Nikki Lindgren: 100%. And I would say the less fancy, the assets look kind of the better they'll perform. So I think that that is favorable for people who are a little nervous about going out there with lower five productions. It's the perfect mix. The emergence of shop, though, is really where we're seeing a lot of benefits there. So it's really easy for a brand to set up a shop on TikTok. There's like toggling a couple buttons, especially if you're on Shopify. It's like a one click and you're off to the races. Once the shop is enabled, we can, that 68 00:05:51,620 --> 00:05:57,380 Nikki Lindgren: then produce ads or run ads rather, that point to the shop. So the consumer doesn't even have 69 00:05:57,380 --> 00:06:04,940 Nikki Lindgren: to leave the TikTok environment to convert. And what we see when we do this is usually a 20% lift in return on 70 00:06:04,940 --> 00:06:12,800 Nikki Lindgren: on ad spend or a 20 to 30% reduction in customer acquisition costs. So the idea of not only just the young 71 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:18,860 Nikki Lindgren: consumer, but any consumer wanting to stay on TikTok to complete their purchase is huge. And we do see similar 72 00:06:18,860 --> 00:06:24,080 Nikki Lindgren: trends on other platforms like meta shops will perform similarly in terms of Lyft. But it just 73 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,360 Nikki Lindgren: kind of speaks to the way consumers are shopping. If they don't have to go to your e-commerce website 74 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,055 Nikki Lindgren: these days, they're happy not to. 75 00:06:29,055 --> 00:06:32,240 Kevin Mako: That's powerful. It's amazing that you're seeing those kind of 76 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,960 Kevin Mako: results. And the nice thing about everybody listening to the podcast right now is that this is a fairly 77 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:42,020 Kevin Mako: fairly new platform. So you're probably ahead of most of your competitors or if you've got a 78 00:06:42,020 --> 00:06:46,380 Kevin Mako: truly innovative hardware product, you're probably far advanced of, let's say, alternative buying 79 00:06:46,380 --> 00:06:48,640 Kevin Mako: options for your particular product. 80 00:06:48,860 --> 00:06:53,640 Kevin Mako: Either way, why not start to at least understand a little bit about the opportunities of 81 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:58,100 Kevin Mako: this platform, research it, get to know it to see if it might be a good fit for you, especially 82 00:06:58,100 --> 00:07:00,740 Kevin Mako: because this is an early adopter scenario. 83 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:01,500 Nikki Lindgren: Exactly. 84 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:07,660 Kevin Mako: So talk to us a bit more about the ads and some of the tracking metrics. I know that on lots of 85 00:07:07,660 --> 00:07:13,040 Kevin Mako: different platforms, you have ways to really understand return on ad spend that leads to A, B, testing 86 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,160 Kevin Mako: and all these other great tools and tricks that you can use to optimize your ads and perform well. 87 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:18,840 Kevin Mako: Do you see a lot of those similar? 88 00:07:18,860 --> 00:07:25,160 Kevin Mako: tools on TikTok. And especially if you're buying through the platform, that to me has a 89 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,860 Kevin Mako: great deal of transparency all the way from the initial engagement through to the actual purchase, 90 00:07:28,980 --> 00:07:34,380 Kevin Mako: being able to see different types of content, how well they perform. Yeah. And the interesting thing about 91 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:38,860 Nikki Lindgren: paid these days in general, and it's not just TikTok again, this is a little bit more of a broad 92 00:07:38,860 --> 00:07:44,100 Nikki Lindgren: statement, is the platforms, the machine learning behind it is doing such a great job of helping us 93 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:48,440 Nikki Lindgren: target these days. So once we put into the platform, our objective is a sale and we won't want that sale 94 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:54,180 Nikki Lindgren: to occur directly on TikTok shop. Most of the weight that ad manager or a company is going 95 00:07:54,180 --> 00:07:59,900 Nikki Lindgren: to be working on is the creative itself. So when we think then through how do we measure this on the 96 00:07:59,900 --> 00:08:05,120 Nikki Lindgren: platform, we're going to first be looking at things related to engagement rate. So how many seconds 97 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:11,320 Nikki Lindgren: of your ad are they watching? Generally speaking, it's still just three seconds, which hardly counts, right? 98 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:16,780 Nikki Lindgren: But leading with a really interesting beginning to captivate the audience to watch longer is going to be 99 00:08:16,780 --> 00:08:21,760 Nikki Lindgren: key. But now, once you start to build the ads and get them to watch a couple 100 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,400 Nikki Lindgren: seconds, you now have the capabilities to remark it to people who just watched one, two, 101 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:31,960 Nikki Lindgren: three, five seconds of your ad. So you're setting this level of remembrance and brand recall 102 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:37,800 Nikki Lindgren: and product to recall within the TikTok ecosystem, which is great. So as we're setting stuff up, 103 00:08:37,860 --> 00:08:41,820 Nikki Lindgren: we think about like kind of the overall full funnel of what one can expect on TikTok. So we're 104 00:08:41,820 --> 00:08:46,220 Nikki Lindgren: starting with that engagement. And then we're trying to drive the second touch point to be that 105 00:08:46,220 --> 00:08:50,518 Nikki Lindgren: conversion, whether it's on TikTok shop or on the e-commerce store. That's great. 106 00:08:50,518 --> 00:08:51,420 Kevin Mako: Now, for somebody 107 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:57,920 Kevin Mako: who's just starting out on the platform has a new single product. So this is a one skew brand. They've 108 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:03,140 Kevin Mako: got their new invention. They're producing it. They now want to gain some sales. What do you look at in terms 109 00:09:03,140 --> 00:09:09,020 Kevin Mako: of the number of pieces of ad content that they should be relaying versus organic? I mean, what would be like 110 00:09:09,020 --> 00:09:15,680 Kevin Mako: a reasonable starter platform based off content on the TikTok platform that they could at least at that point be 111 00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:20,020 Kevin Mako: comfortable. They've got a starter version of getting their ads out there reasonably 112 00:09:20,020 --> 00:09:24,260 Kevin Mako: professionally so that they can actually take a decent shot at using that platform to drive serious 113 00:09:24,260 --> 00:09:30,140 Nikki Lindgren: sales. Yeah. So the number of assets is going to depend a little bit on the budget size. So 114 00:09:30,140 --> 00:09:35,180 Nikki Lindgren: minimum daily spend on TikTok is tiny. It's just $20 a day. If you're only spending, 115 00:09:35,380 --> 00:09:40,180 Nikki Lindgren: you know, very minimally to get going, you just need a couple of assets. When the budgets are going to be 116 00:09:40,180 --> 00:09:45,500 Nikki Lindgren: 500, a couple thousand a day, you're probably going to want, I would say seven plus assets. But 117 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:52,440 Nikki Lindgren: here's the key. The asset should be distinctly unique in the variety of video you're 118 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:59,260 Nikki Lindgren: producing just so you have a clear winner, right? Brands that have more creative assets available to 119 00:09:59,260 --> 00:10:04,720 Nikki Lindgren: them are going to want to mix different hooks and different selling points so that a couple 120 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:11,520 Nikki Lindgren: different cuts of ads can be made into 20 variations. So that's how the big players are 121 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,480 Nikki Lindgren: doing it. But if we're talking about just dipping our toes in to see. 122 00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:21,640 Nikki Lindgren: if it works, I would say four to seven assets and having them all be as different from 123 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:27,340 Nikki Lindgren: one another as possible. So the brand can really start to evaluate what angles are working and 124 00:10:27,340 --> 00:10:34,060 Kevin Mako: then move in that direction. Can you break down what the structure of the ideal ad looks like, 125 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,900 Kevin Mako: the different types ads? You mentioned the hook. Talk a bit about that, the three second rule, 126 00:10:37,900 --> 00:10:42,080 Kevin Mako: all these sorts of things that can allow somebody at home to essentially create their own 127 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,060 Kevin Mako: version of an ad that is structured properly for TikTok. 128 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:50,900 Nikki Lindgren: Yeah, that's a great question. So I think when we're looking at the structure, we want to lead with something 129 00:10:50,900 --> 00:10:56,940 Nikki Lindgren: compelling. So having that hook up front of, you know, being first to market in this innovation space 130 00:10:56,940 --> 00:11:02,440 Nikki Lindgren: or whatever it is is going to be the biggest lead. Then the middle of the video is going to be 131 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:06,920 Nikki Lindgren: whatever your unique selling proposition could be. It could be us versus them, like what's on the market 132 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:12,100 Nikki Lindgren: today versus this new innovation. It could be ways in which it makes your life better, but just some 133 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:17,180 Nikki Lindgren: unique selling proposition that is important to the business. This could even be the founder, 134 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:23,500 Nikki Lindgren: the inventor had an issue that he or she was solving. And, you know, so it can be a little bit mission led to. 135 00:11:23,580 --> 00:11:29,980 Nikki Lindgren: It doesn't just have to be, you know, a real USP, so to speak. Then the end is going to be an offer, 136 00:11:29,980 --> 00:11:35,420 Nikki Lindgren: hopefully. So if we can offer them a discount or anything of that sense, like that's going to be the best 137 00:11:35,420 --> 00:11:40,780 Nikki Lindgren: way to end the video. But then there are the cards and the pop-ups that we can put on our TikTok ads too. 138 00:11:40,780 --> 00:11:46,400 Nikki Lindgren: so you can always have that omnipresent in the ad experience, whatever that offer is. So we don't 139 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:51,700 Nikki Lindgren: have to wait until the end of the video for the consumer to see the offer. And what's the typical length 140 00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:58,400 Nikki Lindgren: of these videos? They can vary. So what you'll find today, at least, and you know, TikTok ads platform is 141 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:04,680 Nikki Lindgren: changing all the time, but an ad cannot be longer than 60 seconds. So if you have an ad that is longer 142 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:09,720 Nikki Lindgren: than 60 seconds that you want to push live, you just have to push organically first and then pick it up as a 143 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:15,860 Nikki Lindgren: Spark ad. Most of the ads we're seeing success with these days and we're running TikTok ads for 144 00:12:15,860 --> 00:12:23,820 Nikki Lindgren: about 30 different brands or ads that are about 25 to 40 seconds in length. So it is some sort 145 00:12:23,820 --> 00:12:30,080 Nikki Lindgren: of educational hook to really draw the consumer in. That being said, the watch time is still significantly 146 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:36,140 Kevin Mako: lower. That's great. So much good nuggets of like clear, actual insight here. Are there any last 147 00:12:36,140 --> 00:12:39,700 Kevin Mako: tips that you want to give hardware startups for their TikTok marketing plans? 148 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,480 Nikki Lindgren: planning. Yeah, I think startups that have product that are ready to kind of put in 149 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:50,400 Nikki Lindgren: creators' hands, TikTok now has the creator content area of the platform. So you can go out and use 150 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:57,840 Nikki Lindgren: their platform to source creators to get UGC from. The other final tip I would leave would be related to 151 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:04,200 Nikki Lindgren: Spark ads in general. So I did mention that if you have a longer video, you have to first load as 152 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:09,380 Nikki Lindgren: organic TikTok and then pick it up as an ad. Similar, if you're working with a creator, 153 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,840 Nikki Lindgren: going to want to spark from their creator account rather than your own because then it has 154 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:21,420 Nikki Lindgren: that co-branding experience that feels a little bit more native to the consumer. Lots of great actual 155 00:13:21,420 --> 00:13:26,680 Kevin Mako: nuggets there. Can you just talk a bit about what you guys do at Pennock and where people can learn more? 156 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:33,580 Nikki Lindgren: Yeah, absolutely. So Pennock is a paid media agency. We're helping consumer product brands figure out 157 00:13:33,580 --> 00:13:38,700 Nikki Lindgren: how best to spend and utilize their marketing dollars to their advertiser dollars. We primarily 158 00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:44,200 Nikki Lindgren: show up managing ads on TikTok, meta, Google, and programmatic, but really any pay-to-play 159 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,340 Nikki Lindgren: placement, we're helping our brands figure out how to get there and whether or not it's going to be a good 160 00:13:48,340 --> 00:13:53,880 Nikki Lindgren: fit for them for their ultimate business objective, whether that's a KAC or ROAS. MER, we're really coming 161 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:59,300 Nikki Lindgren: into it from a scientific perspective to help the business grow. Super helpful stuff, especially for new 162 00:13:59,300 --> 00:14:03,360 Kevin Mako: and emerging brands that may not know all of the ins and outs. I mean, we talked about a lot of things today 163 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:08,460 Kevin Mako: on the show, but of course, there's so much it goes into the details of doing it well. So if you're just 164 00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:13,200 Kevin Mako: starting out and you're on a limited budget, learn about this and try and experiment with it yourself. 165 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,720 Kevin Mako: But if you want to take it more seriously and you want to scale, then that's where you need to bring in 166 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:23,620 Kevin Mako: the pros more unlikely and build out that multiple asset, multiple hook strategy, A-B testing, 167 00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:27,620 Kevin Mako: all of these things, figuring out across different platforms, what works best, and then really finding 168 00:14:27,620 --> 00:14:32,320 Kevin Mako: out where your best return on ad spend comes from, doing more of that while you continue to find 169 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,540 Kevin Mako: new channels and verticals and all the rest to really scale a great product and getting in front 170 00:14:36,540 --> 00:14:38,440 Kevin Mako: of eyeballs. I mean, that's what it's all about. You've got to get it. 171 00:14:38,460 --> 00:14:43,020 Kevin Mako: in front of people who are targeted that may want your product and hook them in, sell them on 172 00:14:43,020 --> 00:14:46,780 Kevin Mako: why your product is so great, and then make that conversion at the end of the day. So, Nikki, 173 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,460 Kevin Mako: much appreciate it for all your words of wisdom today. As always, I will put the links below 174 00:14:50,460 --> 00:14:53,960 Kevin Mako: to your company in the chat. So if anyone wants to link through, you could just pop below. 175 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,200 Kevin Mako: Nikki, thanks again. Appreciate all your help today. And we will talk again soon. 176 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,240 Nikki Lindgren: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Kevin. Thanks. Thanks. And take care. 177 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:06,540 Kevin Mako: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup Podcast. If you found some value in the 178 00:15:06,540 --> 00:15:11,380 Kevin Mako: show, please do us a huge favor and hit the like button and subscribe. If you have any 179 00:15:11,380 --> 00:15:16,640 Kevin Mako: questions, guest suggestions, or anything else, feel free to reach out to us anytime at our email, 180 00:15:16,980 --> 00:15:24,180 Kevin Mako: podcast at MakoDesign.com. This show is hosted by Kevin Mako, North America's leading expert on product 181 00:15:24,180 --> 00:15:29,720 Kevin Mako: development for hardware startups, and the podcast is produced by Mako Design, the original firm 182 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:35,220 Kevin Mako: providing end-to-end consumer product development services tailored specifically to hardware startups, small 183 00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:40,220 Kevin Mako: manufacturers and inventors. Take your product from idea to store shelves at Mako 184 00:15:40,220 --> 00:15:46,920 Kevin Mako: That's M-A-K-O-Design.com. Thanks for joining and see you again soon.