So what's going on, everybody?

What's up?

Good afternoon.

Wow.

That was a fake.

That was so fake.

Wow, that was great.

Was it?

What's up, everybody?

First off, that's not how I did it.

You sound like a cartoon character just jumped out from behind a curtain.

What's up, guys?

Roger Rabbit showed up.

Oh, man.

So I'm Derek.

I'm Matt.

Ew.

I'm Matt.

I'm Matt.

I'm Matt.

And this is Dateline.

That's Carlene.

I'm Kevin.

And That's Kevin the KK's.

Oh.

Whoa.

There's only two.

There's only two.

We're good.

We're good.

There's only two.

Wow.

I feel like this is gonna devolve into, like, a rabbit hole here.

Oh, man.

Which we got to record another one, by the way.

We do.

That needs to happen soon, so.

Yeah.

So what's on today's agenda?

Well, apparently, we're talking about divination.

Divination.

Divination.

Divination.

Div.

The act of seeking out knowledge about the future from outside sources.

Trying to seek out the future and.

Or hidden knowledge that God has not yet revealed to the world.

Those are the things that divination pretty much counters or covers.

I am so excited about this.

Or just simply connecting with supernatural beings is technically a part of divination.

It was a suggestion.

Bunch of fortune tellers.

We like it.

It was a suggestion.

Like, okay, what can we talk about?

We're talking about it.

We're talking about it.

It's gonna be good.

We be talking now.

We're talking.

We're live right now.

Well, we're not live.

We're live.

We were recording.

For anyone listening to this, we're live right now.

We are live at the time of recording.

We were alive at this point.

Anything could happen between now and then.

Anything.

Yeah.

So anyway, how's everybody doing?

You just drove eight hours.

I just drove eight hours.

Got up super early so I could be here with you guys.

You guys, so awesome.

And I appreciate you guys showing up, because I wasn't sure I was gonna be here.

The dedication, not only to show but to our listeners is just outstanding.

You guys need to just have no idea how hard this man works.

Shower him.

Hey, you know what?

I'm gonna let it happen today.

Lots of love.

Yeah.

Lots of love.

You've had such a day.

You've already got your hat off.

Yeah, it's true.

Didn't even have a hat on today.

Yeah, it's right over there.

I mean.

Put the hat down.

I put that.

I put it down.

I'm the only mad hatter today, okay?

The angry hatter.

Oh, my God.

We're all mad here.

I hear him growling.

Who's growling?

Huh?

Sorry, that's my bad breathing habits.

Luke, your father.

He doesn't say that.

Okay.

He doesn't.

Okay.

All right, well, he's your dad.

I mean, he just says, I am your father.

Well, first he says no, then he says, I am your father.

And actually he emphasizes the.

I always liked Leia better than you.

She was prettier.

No, I don't want to.

That's getting weird.

It is getting weird.

Sorry.

Why not?

Sorry.

It's like.

All right, so this is.

It's almost as good as Star Trek.

You don't have to pray it in.

Where does this just.

This is.

This is going to be an awesome.

So divination.

It's a thing.

It is.

Is it?

Okay, we'll see today.

Welcome to the Truth Respons.

All right.

You can pray.

Matt.

It's okay.

What?

You can pray?

Yep.

Who's praying?

You?

I'm praying.

Why not?

I think I prayed last week.

You did?

Okay.

Took off my head.

All right.

Lord, thank you for today.

Thank you for this podcast.

Thank you for the safe return of Derek after his eight hour drive home and that he got here on time.

Thank you for Kevin and Carlene and their hearts for joining us.

And for today's topic, may you bless it in our conversation and lead us to the truth and how to respond to it.

In Jesus name, amen.

Amen.

Should we start by setting up why we're talking about divination?

It's all Carlene's fault again.

That's two in a row.

Hey.

Strikes you out, y'all.

Actually, she did.

It was hers.

Because she was like, what about divination?

Yes, it was mine, but I was just throwing it out.

Like.

If you'd thrown that question to me, I wouldn't have come up with that answer.

Me, too.

I could not have divined it.

I'd just be trying to find different ways to talk about.

I like it.

It's getting.

It's getting crazy.

Does it have special meaning in your world?

No.

Well, kind of.

I mean, you guys are talking about it, so.

Oh, yeah, we were talking about it, but also where I come from, which is Trinidad, I was like, where are we going?

Brooklyn.

Like, where are you from?

Like, up north somewhere.

Holyoke.

I'm not Holyoke.

Ew.

That's western Massachusetts.

What?

I am eastern Massachusetts.

Oh, Massachusetts.

My bad.

I don't know the difference.

It's all.

It's all the northeast coast to me.

So like.

So I was born in Trinidad and I was raised in Boston.

Okay, just so we clarify, Boston.

She parked the car in Harvard Yard.

So apparently, from what I hear, you know how the old heads talk.

My grandmother used to pull spirits out of people.

How much of that do I know?

I don't know.

So, you know, it was something that I wanted to look into.

Like, can people really have that curse gift?

I don't.

I don't know how to look at it.

So that's why when I read last night, it came back up into my head.

And what'd you read last night?

So really bad girls in a Bible was talking about the medium that Saul went to go see and that in what?

First Samuel.

First Samuel.

Second Samuel.

First.

First Samuel.

Thanks.

So I love this story, by the way.

I even.

I've even started writing a song about this story.

Right.

But is that.

Better not be the one he was singing?

No, I was not.

I was just turning the song into.

Oh, you was freestyling.

No, no.

You was freestyling.

I was redoing cops into a.

Bad girls.

Into bad girls and that Yahweh's.

And then he decided he was going to write a song about it.

So it's just.

Yeah, it's just weird.

We just got a weird song about it.

Like to hear.

Hear it go.

Where's that from?

I.

I don't know.

I stopped paying attention.

So anyway, my mind moved on to something else.

I see.

So anyway, so Saul, right?

Correct.

But I mean, it wasn't in a.

Sense, went to go see somebody who could apparently saw.

Saw a seer.

Saw.

Saw a seer.

Hopefully they'd be able to see into his future.

Seesaw?

Kind of.

No, kind of not.

Well, kind of.

Kind of like an oracle.

So Saul was king of Israel, right?

Officially the first king of Israel.

Second king, technically.

I mean, because God wanted that position and the people were like, we don't want you to be our king.

Which you'd think he would have just went.

But he was kind and merciful.

So merciful and kind.

So Saul was king.

Samuel was a prophet.

No, he was high priest, wasn't he?

What now?

Samuel?

Prophet.

Prophet.

Was he a prophet?

Prophet.

Okay.

He was considered a prophet.

He passed away.

And so Saul was having an issue.

That's where we pick up the story.

I just want to like, clarify.

So everybody that may not know the story, like that was kind of like a Quick rundown.

What you said Samuel passed away.

He did.

I felt like it was a mess.

No, Samuel's dead at this point.

Promise me.

I'm messing up my timelines in my head.

I guess because Saul went to this medium.

You know what?

Okay, so let's get on with it.

Saul went to the medium and he.

Broke, he broke it.

He broke what he's supposed to be doing.

He was supposed to be doing that stuff.

He was, he was asked to summon Samuel spirit so he could consult with him.

That's the whole point of it.

Like that's, that's what he was doing.

So let me toss this out there.

Assume that I have very limited knowledge on this subject matter because I didn't go to Bible college.

No.

And the only understanding I have would be from Scripture and telling you you shouldn't do it.

So that to me is enough.

But I'm very interested because I have opinions and I think like a lot of people with our faith, there are things we have opinions about that we don't have foundation for.

Well, I mean, so there's multiple forms.

You know, there's people that think they can read fire and there's people that can, that'll tell them the future and the things they need to know.

And someone will read water and that will tell them the future and the things they need to know or whatever it is.

The funny thing about this is that you see this throughout the Old Testament where people go and they start to play with these kinds of things.

And then you have this wonderful book, it's called the book of Daniel.

And there's this king Nebuchadnezzar who decides that when he has this bad dream he's going to call all of these crazies into his throne room.

Can you guys do this?

And not a single one can.

But you know who can?

God can.

So if you were looking for a showdown to see what's true and what's not, Book of Daniel puts it on display.

That being said, what are people really doing?

Because there's arguments, there are arguments that this divination stuff of all its different forms and functions, that there's some reality to it that these things are really happening, that people can really predict things and understand things.

They're not supposed to understand everything, connect with the spirit.

But is it demon or divine?

See where are they getting their information from the truth or the trickster things of God tend to be backed up by God.

And most of these prophets self proclaimed that say that they can speak these things and tell the future.

Most of them fail the number one test that comes with it.

And that is you got to have the proof in the pudding.

Your prophecies have to come true, especially all of them.

You can get lucky on some of them, especially when you make very general prophecies.

But you have to actually have a winning record.

Sure.

So now you take that and you say, okay, there are people that do the divinations and you're describing it earlier.

What Ouija boards and what other conjures.

Tarot cards, all this stuff.

So the palm readings.

Of course.

If I'm gonna come with something, I'm gonna make sure I look into it.

So there's three types of divination.

Three, yes.

Okay, go.

Thank you.

Inductive.

Right.

Is one of them.

Inductive uses a procedure to find hidden meaning in everyday signs and situations.

So like astrology.

Right.

And then there's interpretive.

It uses a procedure and a gifted diviner to interpret the meaning of signs like weather changes, changes in bird movement, that type of stuff.

Right.

Sort of like they do with Pawtucket Pauxine or whatever his name is.

Oh, if he sees his sexy film.

Yeah.

If he sees his shadow, it's going to be.

Right.

And then there's intuitive.

Great movie.

Which uses what is.

Oh, it was a good movie.

Intuitive uses the psychic abilities and special gifts to communicate with spirits and supernatural beings.

So that's like someone entering into a trance to access spiritual guidance.

So those are the three main ones.

And then they branch out into, of course, the Ouija board seances.

And those are tools to do it.

Those are the tools to achieve that.

So not all of them use.

Just that some of them use different levels of.

There's so many different methods in order to do these things too.

Especially that third one.

That third one is the.

To me, one of the most dangerous when it comes to the fact that some of these people try to open up their minds through a meditation that goes beyond simple closing your eyes and thinking they'll go into substances.

And certain.

It's a hypnotic state and sometimes.

Or psychedelic.

You can influence psychedelic stuff.

You know, psychedelics.

That's what chants are about, right?

Was it.

Isn't that what a chant is about?

A chant is.

Well, that can help you achieve the trance like state.

Yeah, it can get your brain into that.

I think a chant.

And it depends on what level you're using it on because, you know, a lot of the monks chant to achieve enlightenment.

So I don't think if that was.

To drain the other monks out it could be.

Well, I mean, when you think about.

Okay, so meditation.

We'll be careful.

Meditation in itself, in a pure form, in a Christian form.

Okay.

Where if you're taken and you're closing your eyes and you're meditating on the word of God, where you're reading a scripture and then you're sitting there and you're thinking about it, you may be repeating it yourself and trying to understand that and really let it sink in.

There's nothing wrong with that.

But this is going outside of that.

You know what I mean?

This isn't focusing necessarily on God's scripture or anything like that.

This is focusing on many other things.

And sometimes it gets into the witchcraft area.

Because by the definition, that's what it pulled up.

Witchcraft.

Yeah.

See, the thing is that I was thinking about this the other day when it comes to.

I was watching some kind of show or movie and it had.

There was some secret words that were supposed to be said.

Oh, that's what it was.

I was thinking about the movie.

No, I was thinking about the movie, of all things, the Mummy, you know, Brendan Fraser and all that.

And how they had this book of the dead versus the book of the living.

And how they were saying these phrases in this.

And these phrases from this book were supposed to do all these things.

Now, can I say that words don't have power?

Absolutely not.

Our whole universe is spoken into existence.

Frequencies change everything depending on what the frequencies are, the spoken word, especially when they come from our almighty God, incredible, powerful.

But that doesn't mean, though, that other words can't still have some kind of consequence or reaction.

And so what is it, though, that if you're reaching outside of God, then what are you reaching towards?

And that's the question.

If it's not from God, then obviously if you take him out of the equation, you're going into something that's not God.

And the things that aren't God are evil.

So therefore, what are you really inviting into your life?

Right.

You know, people open themselves up to some really crazy stuff, they don't even realize it.

I mean, people do that anyway when it comes to.

Even movies, media.

Well, that's what my next question was about.

Okay.

Because some of these movies, they're all about this stuff, and it can't have a null effect on you.

Yeah, well, I mean, I've heard of people having.

Including my own wife, watched a movie.

I can't remember which one it was.

I want to say it was insidious, but I could be wrong.

And she Watched it and then was like she felt just like there was evil in her house.

Like she just opened up.

She should not have watched that.

She should not have had those kind of things.

I can't remember if that's the movie or not, but I just remember she was telling me she's like, she had to.

Like she was going through burning sage, trying to clear out any evil spirit.

Like at the time she was trying to like, what can I do to cleanse myself of what just happened?

And you know, lots of prayer and see.

But like, because she just felt like she, by just ingesting those kinds of things, she was opening herself up to something terrible.

And for those who are chasing this stuff all the time, you know, there are people that think like tarot cards are just a fun thing to do at parties and games.

Not realizing that, like you realize you're trying to go around God now.

You're trying to do this without God.

It's not like you're praying, hey, God, give me the answer.

And you're trying to.

I've seen people do that with the Bible.

I'm not sure how much that does or does not work for people where they're like, ask God a question, then drop the rob on the floor and then look for the answer.

I'm like, okay, that's.

It's an interesting way of going about it.

Not sure exactly if that's how he.

Wants to do it.

There's a megachurch, a very famous, well known megachurch that supports a form of Christian tarot cards.

I would be, I'm very skeptical of those things.

But yeah, no, I think that's crazy.

But, but why, but at the same time, what about the casting of lots?

Because the casting of lots was a thing.

What about Christmas tree?

We can get into that a different day.

I got a video for you.

So anyway, casting of lots is an interesting thing where it's more of a chance cube, but more than you know.

But, but it's still the same, right?

It's like letting God decide.

It's almost like rock paper scissors nowadays really.

But it's still what they used, right?

Like they let God decide who was what and did.

Did what.

Right.

I mean, I'm just saying it's a form, right?

So is.

So is being able to prophesy, you know, that's God giving you a vision.

Well, like casting of lots was something where it was, I mean, highly luck based.

But the idea is that if God wanted to influence them, he could.

But it still falls into the categories.

Is What I'm saying, I'm not arguing against it.

You're not the first one to bring this up to me.

So where does this go with divination?

I would hope not.

I got lost after a while.

So bringing it back.

Bringing it back.

Right.

Bring it back to the story.

The story.

Right.

Saul goes to this medium to talk with Samuel because he's like stuck.

Right.

He doesn't know what to do.

And so she calls forth, she does her thing and then freaks out because it actually.

Because the, the spirits that she's used to dealing with is not what shows up.

It's actually Samuel spirit to that appears and is like yo do what are you doing?

Right.

And he totally reprimands saw forever having even thought thought about that.

So yeah, it was a good.

It was an interesting one.

It's one of my favorite stories.

Yeah, it was a very interesting.

And they, they kind of did it in modern times.

So the first part of the story in all the chapters is they do it in modern times.

So you can understand it a little bit better.

Sure.

And then, and then it goes into the Bible verses and everything.

So it was good.

Now it's funny because I've been challenged on this where it's like, well, what if you think God can't use these things?

I think he absolutely can use them.

That's an example right there where God can use even the wrong approach for his.

Still good meaning.

Can people do things that are similar to these things and still be serving God at the same time?

Okay, maybe, sure.

Maybe we also have to be careful that there are things that God still does grant people because we know that the Holy Spirit is here.

It's a gift to us and it grants gifts of the Spirit.

And God's power is still active on this earth.

Some people are more in tune with that than others.

Okay, I'm good with that too.

But usually it's the why.

If the heart is completely seeking God truly it's one thing.

If it's not, then it's a whole other thing.

And if it's for seeking his will.

Or your own, sure.

Well, and the divination side of it also jumping into spirits which we don't understand.

So I can only imagine why would people go there to your question of why.

But it's always going to be self serving or I would say assuming, well.

There'S curiosity and want of need of information, such a.

And then there's also self serving where using it for gain.

So for instance, you look at the story in Acts where There was a guy who was trying to.

He wanted to be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit so that he could make money.

And Peter shut him down.

Like, no, that's not what this is about.

So the heart is a big part of it, where your heart's at when you do things.

It's one of the things that, you know, when Nick and I were talking about his.

As he was preparing for his recent sermon on Daniel 1, chapter 1, and he was talking about, you know, the difference of.

It wasn't about the diet of vegetables and water that Daniel and his friends went into.

And I was like, yeah, it's not about the what.

It's the why behind it.

You know, it's wasn't necessarily that.

It was the vegetables and water.

It was the why behind it.

Why he wanted the vegetables and water against the indoctrination and everything that came with the different lifestyle that they were trying to have forced upon them.

Or you can even say it wasn't necessarily forced upon them, but that they were constantly being invited into to take part of and then make their normal.

Does that make sense?

Mm, it does.

I was trying.

The thought of divination, to me has always been the Ouija boards, the playing with demonic possession.

And spirits have to possess something to have any kind of power.

And you're opening up your eyes or your heart or your soul to them.

So I can't imagine that the only.

The only references I've seen in the Bible, literally with possession are where they were being cast out.

So that's what I picture.

You're messing with when you're doing divination stuff.

But then you can.

You can take it down to the.

Okay, what about the reading your fortune cookie?

Okay.

Is it in fun or is it because if you get one you like, don't you say, hey, that's a good one.

Hold on to it.

Okay, but what's the heart behind it?

Is it for amusement and entertainment?

Or do you take it seriously and put it into practice as if that is going.

I think we ingest a whole lot of real bad things under entertainment.

Interesting.

That's true.

I think it's fair.

I mean, I've had.

I've been at any restaurant where I get a fortune cookie and I look at it.

Usually I don't try to hold on to them.

No.

But I've seen people that do that.

They keep it and, like, it's kind of cool.

It says something kind of neat or something, so they'll hold on to it.

It's like reading today's horoscope.

Oh, you'll come into money.

Yay.

It's, you know, I don't, I don't read them, so I don't know what they really say.

But that one always comes on a Friday.

You're investing.

Yeah, right.

Every other Friday.

Yeah, but you're investing in, like you said, other than God.

So I look at it and go, okay.

But it's more than that because we think things are playful that can kill us, you know, they can kill our soul.

And we look at it as entertainment value.

And I, I know that is part of the curse.

Well, it goes back to the question that I've been asked before.

Don't you think God can even use all these things?

I'm sure he could.

God can use it, but he's already set us up enough.

Lord, we don't need these things.

Why are we still looking for more ways?

He's given us the Bible.

He's given us the Holy Spirit.

That's another Bible.

He's given us the Church.

And all these things are to help us to do the things he needs.

He's given us a Bible that has everything we need to know.

It's in there.

Everything we need to know is in there.

If we needed to know more, it would have been in there.

Correct.

I'm good with that.

Everything we need to know to get from this life to salvation, to eternity is all in that book.

And the Holy Spirit, especially when you look at how Jesus explains the helper, the Holy Spirit coming, is to help us understand these things and learn them and implement them.

So if we have our instruction manual, why do we keep going outside the manual?

Why do we keep looking for all these other ways?

We're very prideful.

We love selfishness.

Do it ourself.

Yeah, it's selfish.

It's the only answer.

Yeah.

But we live in a culture that continues to swallow these other ideas and regurgitate them as if they're good, which sounds.

It is an oxymoron.

But we do.

We take all the.

And that was one of the reasons that the Israelites got in trouble in the Old Testament again and again and again is they would start implementing these other things.

That's one of the things people charged the Catholic Church with, is that they took things that weren't of Christian and they implemented them in.

I hear that when it comes to the Catholic Church, they complain that the thing with the saints is it represents the same thing as the paganism that had a God for everything that they prayed for.

And so this time they have a saint to pray for, for everything.

As an intercessor.

Yes.

Right.

They compare those two things.

That's one of the complaints.

Well, the big one for reformed Catholics is always praying to Mary.

Yeah.

Okay, but you see, there's a similarity there.

It's like we keep trying to go outside of what we have, you know, and it's interesting, too, because even the society around us, even those who aren't even believers, I see them online all the time.

Well, what about these other things that you know?

Because there's always another gospel, another writing.

Well, this was supposed to be in the Bible or this one, you know, why do you guys keep looking for more?

What's interesting, we can go back to Saul and see that.

The interesting thing to me about the story, besides the whole details, but the background of it is Saul was constantly trying to seek God himself instead of using Samuel.

And then when he didn't have Samuel, he chose to seek Samuel instead of God himself.

Like, he was constantly trying to do things whatever way he wanted to do them.

Right.

Not the way that God had originally planned and set up.

Yeah, I mean, we often try to chase God on our terms, not realizing that it's not how it works.

We gotta chase him on his terms.

He's given them to us pretty plainly once again.

Can he use all these other ways?

Sure he can.

He is God.

He can do anything he wants.

But why?

Why are we trying to keep forcing him to use all these other methods one way?

He could have just been listening the whole time.

Well, I mean, I'm just saying, it said, like, you know, all the signs and wonders in the world won't make people believe.

Exactly.

I mean, he's given us everything we need.

You know, he pointed to the stars at one point.

They missed that, too, except for some people that were coming from out of state.

Hey, isn't there a Messiah supposed to be born?

He would be born over there, right?

The one.

The people who weren't even followers.

And Daniel, he gave them a timeline to look at, an exact timeline and.

Where they were able to and all of it.

And it played out exactly as it said.

And they found it so important that they paid attention to it, whereas the people that he came to completely ignored him till his death.

Yeah, that's the thing that gets me, you know, people that are willing to miss what's right in front of them, you know, that's why when he said, woe to you, Bethsaida, if the things that.

And he meant two other places.

Right.

Capernaum and what was the other one?

I know.

Anyway, woe to you if the signs that have been done to you were done in Sodom and Gomorrah.

They would have repented long ago.

Like, dude, you had me here.

You missed it.

I was right here.

Everything was in front of you and you took everything for granted.

You weren't willing to see what was right in front of your face.

We have a Bible right in front of our face.

We have churches right in front of our face.

We have the way that makes it easy and simple right in front of our face.

And we keep trying to complicate it even more because we're too proud to go.

Ah, I can just accept that.

Well, and not to mention the fact.

And don't get this mixed up.

Like, we are not divine, but we have the divine in us, the Holy Spirit.

Yeah.

Like there's, there's no more connection necessary.

Yeah.

You don't got to go to these other things.

Right.

Like the Holy Spirit is guiding you if you listen.

Yeah.

And we have reckon we have record in the Bible of God helping people with their belief, with their understanding.

I mean, Solomon asked for wisdom.

God gave him wisdom.

He gave him everything else with it.

I mean, he's willing to give us the things that he knows are good, and yet we still try to find other ways to get them.

It's remarkable.

And he covered it all very basically.

You're worried about getting enough of the things you need, you'll get what you need.

Seek the kingdom first.

He didn't say all the things you want.

I mean, our commercialism society says, go and get all the things you want.

And if you don't get all the things you want, there's a problem.

God goes, don't worry about that.

I'll make sure you have everything you need.

Seek the kingdom first.

It's funny because there's a lot of things about God and about his salvation story, about the Bible, about the gospel.

It's all very simple and yet we keep complicating it.

We have a way out and people are trying to complicate the way out.

God loves us.

People try to complicate that we can be forgiven.

People try to complicate that.

There's so much that's simple.

The Bible is really about one man, two things.

His first coming and his second coming.

We're trying to complicate that.

People are always trying to read between lines and see something that's not there.

It's ridiculous.

So, I mean, have you always known all of this.

Known all of what?

All of this.

All that you're talking about.

Have you always known all of this?

Not always.

Right.

So in the beginning, before you got to the point you are now, where was your mindset?

It's a complicated story in itself.

Correct?

Everyone has a complicated story.

But the thing is that at the same time, like, even the times where I fell into some of these other things, God was always there swaying me.

Of course he's always gonna be there.

But here's the thing.

Did you understand that back then?

And if you did, then, I mean, there's people that.

But that's the thing.

They don't understand.

You're right.

You're right.

There's people that need more understanding.

Right.

But you have.

You have a couple problems with that.

Number one is that in church, there's a lot of churches and church people and followers of people who follow Jesus who spend more time arguing about things that don't matter than it is about reaching out and trying to help those people come to the right conclusions.

Number two, people are stubborn and they want to do it themselves.

Every other religion in the world is about doing it yourself.

Every other in the religion of the world says that you got to figure it out.

And unfortunately, the only one that ever has true prophecy that is proven throughout it is Christianity, Judaism being second, because that's where most of our prophecy comes from.

So you don't feel if that you were brought up differently, if you were brought up.

If your culture was something different.

Right.

Let's say.

Let's say you were born Haitian.

Right.

They believe in something totally different from what we do.

Right.

And they raise their kids as such.

Do you think you'd be saying the same thing?

You don't know?

I don't know.

You're giving an example I can't speak into.

I'm just saying, like, for those.

The biggest thing for me is that, you know, it's.

There's a lot of fault in a place.

You know, it's all our own fault that these things are more complicated than needs to be.

But we're all influenced by our environment.

So I'm with you there.

And that's exactly what.

It's a cultural thing.

I grew up.

That's true.

But it doesn't change the truth.

It doesn't change.

Right.

Like, that's what we have to.

We have to at the same time understand.

I agree.

I think that the truth is.

The truth is the truth.

When you look at it like, okay, did my mom say, here, here's a Bible.

Read it.

It's got the truth in it.

No.

Did her mom say, hey, here's a Bible?

It's a trickle down effect?

Sure, absolutely.

I mean, I was, where I grew up, it was a lot of things I did not see in a biblical way because that was the environment I was in.

You know, certain things were just okay and normal, you know, and I had to learn as I continued to grow closer to God.

Okay, that's really not okay.

That's really not something to be promoted.

It's not normal.

I mean, you know what's right, what's right and what's wrong.

Yeah, but when you.

There's certain things where, when society makes it seem like this is just how things are and they're not supposed to be that way, you know, you kind of take it at full value unless you have something else.

Let's take it back to the Ouija board, right?

Like, for those who have been in the church, it's one of two things.

Either know just simply based on what it is or know because of what it is.

Right?

Like we know that this is playing with or it's just got the stigma, right?

That's what I'm trying to say is it's either got the stigma or like we understand what this is doing and we really shouldn't touch it.

Right?

Well, society has put it as a joke in movies, right.

Or media.

Right.

And it's just a toy.

It's, it's, it's a game right down the game aisle.

Right, Right.

That's all it is, is a game down the game aisle, but it's not.

And so, I mean, that's, that's a common point where we're playing, right?

That's the playground that we've been given.

And so as much as it's always going to be true that you shouldn't play with that Ouija board, right?

Some people don't know that.

Right.

Like, some people just don't know this is true.

And like, if they're, if they grew up in an environment where this is just a toy that everybody has on their shelves and it's fine and it's fun and it's not nothing, it's the same thing as anyone that grows up and nobody's ever said anything to them, or if they grew up thinking that if they open up a fortune cookie that that's exactly what they're.

That that's for them, that's not a chance cookie that this is talking to you.

If you're told that from day one and you've never heard anything different.

You're gonna think this fortune cookie's talking to me unless you get really skeptical of it.

There's.

Sometimes I come into church and Nick says something, I'd be like, dang, he knew what I was doing, thinking.

He knew what I was feeling.

Like God just put that on his heart so he could say that.

Because I needed to hear that.

Yeah.

And I'm not trying to step on toes.

I get I tend to sound very opinionated on this kind of stuff, but I'm not trying to sound opinionated.

Nobody else in this room is opinionated on anything.

You're definitely opinionated.

Everybody in this room is very opinionated on things.

I'm not especially on having opinions.

Right.

I mean, I'm opinion on medical stuff, because that's what I know.

You got opinions.

We've all got opinions.

That's.

That's.

But anyway, it's, you know, it's one of those things like that, especially for me, the deeper and deeper I go and understand.

It's.

It's really.

It's like, wow, why am I.

It's more simple and less complicated.

And it's.

It's wild how when you look back, you're like, why?

Well, why, why, why do we.

Why had it been this way?

Why can't it have been simple the whole time?

I think something important to draw out of this is that it's easy to become infatuated with the spiritual things, right?

Oh, yeah.

Whether that's demons, angels, Ouija boards, fairies, dragons, which are potentially real dinosaurs or dragons.

Dinosaurs or dragons.

Just saying.

But anyways, so that's what they were.

Called before they were called dinosaurs.

It's easy to get intoxicated with that because that stuff is stuff that's supernatural, right.

That stuff that is outside of the natural observer world.

I don't know.

And it's exciting if you can go.

Full on like that, because there are people that, you know, their loved one died and they're like so distraught, and they're like, I wish you would just come talk to me or just let me know that you're okay or whatever.

So is that wrong to feel that way?

No, I wouldn't think so.

I'm not necessarily saying a curiosity is wrong either, because it's there.

It's.

It's a curious thing, right?

Like one of them.

Why something.

Yeah.

Shouldn't be touched or, you know, it's like a.

Like a little kid.

You said, don't touch that stove.

What are they doing?

Don't Touch that stove, you're gonna get burnt.

What are they doing?

I said don't touch that stove.

Is it really right?

They're going.

And I think it's not so much that they're oblivious.

It's just let me experience it for myself so I can understand it better.

Yeah, I think deep down in every single person, honestly, I think there's this small seed in every single person that knows the truth.

And it's just different shades of covering it up.

And for those who continue to try to open themselves up more and more to the truth, they look a little bit more like somehow we imagine church people to be.

And then there's people that are so far gone that they try to just.

Nothing like that could possibly exist.

Although somehow there's still a struggle with them inside their heads.

I think that's what invokes the anger sometimes.

But because they know that there's something beyond, that's where people start seeking and they start trying to things out.

You know, I remember, I can't remember if it was one of Lee Stirbil's books.

I remember hearing a story of a guy, he would grew up and he was in a Jewish family and then he went to war and he kind of wasn't really practicing anything in the Jewish faith.

And then he started trying out a bunch of other faiths and a bunch of other stuff.

And then one day there was a street preacher that, that was talking about Jesus and he thought the only thing he knew about Jesus that what he was told growing up is that there was this guy who was not the real dude and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And so he's like, this guy's talking nonsense.

And then he challenged him on Old Testament.

And that challenge opened his eyes up to something he never considered, is that there is a connection between the two.

So he went back and he studied the Old Testament.

Well, he studied a Jewish Bible compared to what this guy was talking about and saw what this guy was talking about and it opened the door.

Sometimes we're so welcome to.

We welcome the idea of trying to get around the truth until it's staring us in the face.

And for those who are willing to then open the door and go, I'm going to walk through that.

What we start to find, I think not only is it simple, but it's just world changing.

Because how much have I been fighting against all the ways we fight against the things we should be doing, I think is the most surprising thing instead of just doing what we should be, which is once again, I think it's.

More simple than I think it's.

I think we're.

So we're generalizing now instead of talking directly to this topic.

And one thing about this topic that I think is important to know is that some truths you shouldn't investigate, right?

Like, you shouldn't.

Like, it's.

I have a dangerous curiosity about demons.

And I figured out how to stay away from that curiosity and keep that, that curiosity at bay and closed.

And it's the same thing you do with.

If you want to be a counterfeiter, right?

Like, if you want to be able to tell the difference between a counterfeit dollar and not.

You focus on the real thing.

You don't focus on the counterfeit, right?

So I'm gonna focus on Jesus, right?

And I'm going to make that my passion and try to stay as far away from the demon stuff as possible, right?

But if I just let myself go, demons are real.

Like, and I believe that some people do know more than, than what is on the simple surface level of demons that we know, right?

Like, I really do.

And, but that doesn't mean that I should open myself up to that curiosity and dive down that rabbit hole because what benefit could it have for me?

I could be finding out truth, but what benefit does it have for me or anyone else in the end, right?

Where Jesus clearly states that some demons have to be cast out by prayer, right?

Some in the name of God, right?

So, like, that's all the more I really need to know about them, right?

Is how to, how to send them home, how to get.

Send them packing, right?

So like some truth about some things is something that we don't need to explore because it's not of benefit to anyone.

You would be backed up by.

There's been a lot of people that have gone the demonic route and then turned their life around to Jesus and will now tell people, don't go, don't do that.

People don't know what they're doing, you know, and don't get involved in this, this and this.

And like, you just don't know what you're doing.

And it's.

You're right.

There are people that, that chase that curiosity and when they see the other side, they're like, no, yeah, no, that's not what you want in your life.

And I think that's interesting every time.

And who doesn't want to know what tomorrow holds?

Oh, I mean, sure.

Who doesn't want to know what's going to happen tomorrow, right?

But.

But if we actually knew, they could.

Be like you got.

Here's the thing.

Here's the thing.

Right.

No, but for real, that's the thing is like half the time if we knew what was going to happen tomorrow, we'd change it, thus not knowing what's going to happen tomorrow.

So like it's not worth chasing that.

Right.

It's worth living today right here and now.

Right.

And Jesus said not to worry about tomorrow.

Tomorrow we'll worry about it.

Got enough problems for itself.

Yeah.

But there's an important role of faith in our lives.

To trust in our.

To trust our tomorrows to God, trust our todays to God and live just in the present that he's given us.

And to walk in faith as we go instead of trying to be that far ahead.

Well, that goes back to the divination.

What you're doing is trying to shortcut God.

Yeah.

You're trying to get the answers around him, to take his power, if anything, and his knowledge for yourself.

And I'll state it just because it's how I see a lot of this stuff.

The devil deceives us into thinking what enslaves us is entertainment.

Whether it be a Ouija board, Tarot cards, or even some of these movies.

They're way too dark, way too demonic for you to fill your good soul with.

And since good and evil can't be in the same place at the same time, when you're in that place, what are you giving up space from?

What are you really trying to fill yourself with?

Right.

And you know, good, good hearted, good intentioned Christians fall into this too.

Especially when you think about the idea of like people.

But now I really enjoy the book of Revelation.

It's not a secret, but some people take it way too far where they are trying to constantly predict when everything's going to happen and they get so hung up on it that they miss what we're supposed to be doing.

We're not supposed to be out doing that.

We're supposed to be.

It's in the first book about eating that apple.

Okay?

And I get it.

For someone who loves that book and loves the book of Daniel and loves all that eschatology and all that, I love it.

But you know, that's not the focal point.

It's awesome that God's telling us, giving a sneak peek of windows into these things, but we got work to do.

That is supposed to be the motivator to get the work done before that happens, not the focal point.

You know what I mean?

Where you look forward to Jesus coming again.

That is an important part of it.

But we still got work to do.

And so if you keep taking your eyes off of the now and the things we're supposed to be doing now, and you're only looking at.

Then, you know, and that knowing things about that book, there's.

Trust me, I.

I watch the news.

I look for things that I'm like, you know, that does match up a little bit.

That could be something.

You never know.

But I'm also not so hung up on it that I'm going to.

Right.

You know, go start racking up my credit cards or doing crazy stuff because start a culture.

Yeah.

I mean, people did that, you know, more than once.

Was it.

Yeah, they.

Yeah.

People stopped paying for their houses.

I mean, things do crazy.

But that's not what we're supposed to be doing.

I think it's.

I think.

I think we need to understand that it's even more simple than do this, do that, or don't do this.

You know, like, it's more.

It's more simple than, you know.

Yes Tarot cards.

No Tarot cards.

Yes Ouija board.

No Ouija board.

The thing we need to focus on is what did Jesus tell us to do?

What is.

What is the Holy Spirit telling us and convicting us and calling us to do right now?

Because if he calls you to a foreknowledge of the future, he's going to give that to you.

It's in scripture.

There's a certain way of going about doing prophecy.

Right.

So, like.

So if you're so focused on do I or do I not?

Well, then you're going to completely miss any of that that he's trying to give you.

Like you.

You.

You got to be present with him in the moment more so than worried about the do's and the don'ts and the yes and the no's.

Yeah.

Right.

Very good.

So I think that that's.

That's even more of a narrower, simpler, like, more fine.

Oh, yeah.

Point of where we need to get.

It all the way.

And what's at the bottom of the pot.

That's what it is.

Yeah.

I mean, it's like Romans 12.

Iced onion.

Sometimes.

That's really good.

Yeah.

So like Romans 12, verses 1 and 2.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, in view of the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God.

This is your true worship.

Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you may discern what is the Good, pleasing and perfect will of God.

Keep renewing your mind in this, in him, your Bible, following him, clearing it out, all that other stuff.

And as you said, like, if he wants to use you in those ways, he will, right?

That's his will, not your will.

I had somebody ask me the other day asking me how things were going here at this church, and I'm loving it right now.

So he's like, you know, are you going to stay there for like the next five years?

I said, you know, that's up to God, but yeah, I mean, I will.

He's like, well, yeah, but if you had to call, if you got to call the shot, would you?

I'm like, yeah, of course I would.

But he's like, okay, all right.

Well, yeah, I said, but obviously, you know, I'm not in charge of that.

I do what God tells me to do.

If I was in charge of it, we wouldn't be here right now.

I'm just saying, like, we would have never.

Well, we would have never come in the first place.

Right?

Like for a part time job, quitting two full time jobs.

That's ridiculous.

Like for moving 1400 miles away from my family.

Yeah, that's not happening.

So totally a God thing, right?

Totally got.

And God's done great things through it.

But to wrap this up, right, to bring this all home.

Divination, right?

Is some of that stuff real?

Yes.

Is some of that stuff fake?

Yes.

Is that any of the stuff you should be focusing on?

No.

Listen to the Holy Spirit in the moment and he'll give you what you need for right now.

Even if that's a vision of tomorrow.

Right.

And always remember to become that new creature that God is creating you with.

The renewing of your mind and your heart.

So there's that, there's that we should like and subscribe.

Yeah, yeah.

If you haven't, which you did recently, you liked and subscribed or something to our Facebook or YouTube.

No, YouTube.

YouTube.

I have you on Spotify.

But she's like, I'm not sure if.

But now you can watch it.

Now I can watch?

Yes.

Right.

I went back and I was looking.

So I'm also throwing up all of our episodes on Patreon.

I'm throwing up all of the, all of the devotions on, on Patreon.

So everything is going there.

It's a one stop shop.

It makes it a little easier to navigate some of the things.

And you don't have to go anywhere else.

Right?

So anywhere else.

I appreciate all of you who are Subscribers currently, I do need to email you guys and get what you.

How you want to be addressed because I want to call shout outs, but I don't want to like just give everybody's names out, you know, unless you want that, then whatever.

But.

But as a thank you, I just.

I want to say thank you.

Like, you mean the world to us.

We could not be here without you guys.

And I don't know what he's doing.

He's just showing him the YouTube page.

Scrolling the YouTubes.

Yeah.

Any good comments?

I didn't look.

We've had some.

Some in recent weeks.

We've had some good comments.

Let's see.

That's what we should do.

Maybe one week.

You start out with the comments from last week.

Yep.

There we go.

I like it.

And touch base on it.

Also, if you have topics, we would love to hear it.

We're getting ready to put together a calendar of topics, so shout out to.

Us and we will call it Topic Thunder.

Nope, we're not gonna call it that.

Yes, we are.

We are totally calling it that.

Wait, that's gonna be the name of our next rabbit hole is Topic Thunder.

That's totally awesome.

Oh, my gosh.

Topic Thunder.

That is amazing.

I want to be a dude that's playing the dudes disguise.

There's another dude.

That movie's so funny and it 100% could not have been made today.

So we do not.

We do not support the movie.

But.

But like subscribe.

If you want to hear something specific, let us know.

We're not afraid to touch on anything topic wise.

Topics talking wise mostly.

So unless it's politics and then we'll force Matt in some secret way to do so.

I don't like doing this, but we thank you.

We love you and God bless.

Peace.

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