1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,350 What if the next trillion dollar company isn't chasing trends, but 2 00:00:04,350 --> 00:00:08,910 actually solving age old human needs just reimagined with ai? 3 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:14,790 So today we're joined by OJ and two powerhouse builders and 4 00:00:14,790 --> 00:00:16,320 investors and tech veterans. 5 00:00:16,709 --> 00:00:21,959 They came from companies like Twitter, Typeform, Calendly, T-Mobile, and 6 00:00:21,959 --> 00:00:25,439 they just teamed up to release their book called Building Rocket Ships. 7 00:00:25,769 --> 00:00:29,159 And in this conversation we're gonna unpack a lot from that book 8 00:00:29,159 --> 00:00:32,640 and also just in general the trends right now and what it really takes 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:37,589 to build a product that's going to last in this whole AI gold rush time. 10 00:00:37,709 --> 00:00:38,519 Let's dive into it. 11 00:00:41,713 --> 00:00:44,744 Oji, Ezinnee to have that. 12 00:00:44,744 --> 00:00:47,474 You're, you're both here and this is a, it's honestly just 13 00:00:47,474 --> 00:00:48,404 gonna make it even better. 14 00:00:48,434 --> 00:00:52,964 So you're a power duo, but there you're more than that too. 15 00:00:52,964 --> 00:00:56,534 I mean, you guys have individually, I mean, I can't even list 16 00:00:56,534 --> 00:00:57,764 all the background, so like. 17 00:00:58,529 --> 00:01:00,569 Everyone do your independent research, but let's talk about it. 18 00:01:00,569 --> 00:01:05,549 You, you both come from incredible backgrounds with large companies. 19 00:01:05,849 --> 00:01:09,989 Companies like Twitter type form, uh, T-Mobile, and I'm kind of 20 00:01:10,079 --> 00:01:11,879 blending both of your sides here. 21 00:01:11,939 --> 00:01:15,569 Um, Procore Construction, I mean there's, 'cause I know there's construction folks 22 00:01:15,569 --> 00:01:16,769 listening, there's tech people listening. 23 00:01:17,369 --> 00:01:21,539 Um, the fact is you guys have great perspective of businesses 24 00:01:21,539 --> 00:01:26,039 who have done amazing things, have exited, scaled people. 25 00:01:26,579 --> 00:01:28,499 And like leading on the tech. 26 00:01:28,529 --> 00:01:30,839 And I think that's kind of fast, that's really fascinating in this 27 00:01:30,839 --> 00:01:34,709 world of AI and all the, the tools that everybody's experiencing in 28 00:01:34,709 --> 00:01:36,989 this, this next wave that's happening. 29 00:01:36,989 --> 00:01:40,739 So I guess I'll start with thanking you and how are you guys doing? 30 00:01:40,739 --> 00:01:43,109 How are you, how are you feeling with, uh, where we're at in the world? 31 00:01:43,259 --> 00:01:46,499 So everything's so fast, but like, how are you feeling about it? 32 00:01:46,499 --> 00:01:48,179 Are you, are you like jazzed up for it? 33 00:01:48,239 --> 00:01:49,889 Are are opportunities? 34 00:01:50,404 --> 00:01:51,724 mean, I'm, I'm excited. 35 00:01:51,724 --> 00:01:54,724 I think that there is so much change happening. 36 00:01:54,724 --> 00:01:56,224 Breck neck, neck speed. 37 00:01:56,554 --> 00:02:00,484 Um, it is dizzying, but, uh, I love rollercoasters anyway, 38 00:02:00,484 --> 00:02:01,894 so this just works for me. 39 00:02:03,784 --> 00:02:08,554 Um, I, I, I feel lucky that I've been in the tech space for quite a while, so 40 00:02:08,614 --> 00:02:11,824 I'm able to look behind and see, think about what happened in the past and 41 00:02:11,824 --> 00:02:13,564 try and get some learnings from that. 42 00:02:13,564 --> 00:02:13,574 So. 43 00:02:14,179 --> 00:02:16,549 Um, really excited about it actually. 44 00:02:17,334 --> 00:02:17,434 up? 45 00:02:17,734 --> 00:02:18,154 yeah. 46 00:02:18,334 --> 00:02:20,494 No, no, I, I feel the same way. 47 00:02:20,494 --> 00:02:24,194 This is, uh, it feels like a gold rush time 48 00:02:24,494 --> 00:02:24,914 Mm-hmm. 49 00:02:25,324 --> 00:02:28,564 and it is, but, and I think there are negative and positive 50 00:02:28,624 --> 00:02:31,599 versions of that gold rush, but I think the thing that you are. 51 00:02:32,494 --> 00:02:36,034 Listeners should understand is that this is a time of great opportunity. 52 00:02:36,334 --> 00:02:40,444 Like when Bill Gates, uh, discovered computing in the 75 to 53 00:02:40,444 --> 00:02:44,854 80, 83 when I started, Microsoft was a time of great opportunity. 54 00:02:44,854 --> 00:02:49,684 Silicon chips had just come out and the world was gonna change, and he saw it. 55 00:02:49,714 --> 00:02:50,944 A lot of people did not. 56 00:02:51,244 --> 00:02:51,484 Okay. 57 00:02:51,484 --> 00:02:55,984 And, and when the internet, which Bill Gate did not Shepherd, came out. 58 00:02:56,899 --> 00:02:58,279 I like to say the internet dropped. 59 00:02:59,029 --> 00:03:00,084 When the internet dropped. 60 00:03:00,679 --> 00:03:04,279 There's a time of great opportunity and we've made trillions, you know, 61 00:03:04,279 --> 00:03:06,679 like catch a trillion bucks from that. 62 00:03:06,679 --> 00:03:07,099 Right? 63 00:03:07,489 --> 00:03:10,879 And the earlier thing, and so this is the same time. 64 00:03:11,329 --> 00:03:15,079 And so patient builders, ingenious builders. 65 00:03:15,709 --> 00:03:18,469 Um, are going to change the world. 66 00:03:18,469 --> 00:03:22,219 I wanna talk about money 'cause they will make money and money, just to be clear. 67 00:03:22,579 --> 00:03:26,089 But we're very excited about that big level of thinking, 68 00:03:26,089 --> 00:03:27,379 but also just the details. 69 00:03:27,379 --> 00:03:29,179 Like what is the life of a startup guy? 70 00:03:29,419 --> 00:03:31,129 What is the life of a startup market? 71 00:03:31,129 --> 00:03:32,719 Or what is the life of an investor? 72 00:03:32,719 --> 00:03:34,009 All those things are gonna change. 73 00:03:34,009 --> 00:03:35,959 And you know, these are some of the things that we've been thinking 74 00:03:35,959 --> 00:03:37,189 about and we've been living. 75 00:03:37,581 --> 00:03:40,551 Yeah, you've definitely lived it through your own individual journeys. 76 00:03:40,701 --> 00:03:44,421 course, I'm sure you share a lot of, you know, the inside scoop and, 77 00:03:44,481 --> 00:03:47,361 and obviously you wrote a book about it as well, so, we'll, we'll talk 78 00:03:47,361 --> 00:03:51,896 about that and, but I mean, you said it's, it's great opportunity. 79 00:03:52,191 --> 00:03:55,641 I mean, I just came back, I, I told you I came back from Cisco Live 80 00:03:55,641 --> 00:03:57,411 where that's all their keynotes. 81 00:03:57,411 --> 00:03:59,271 Were, we're interviewing some of the top execs. 82 00:03:59,841 --> 00:04:02,691 And I'm like, everybody is just has the same mindset. 83 00:04:02,691 --> 00:04:04,731 Like they're an AI forward company. 84 00:04:04,761 --> 00:04:09,111 And but you said patient builders because, uh, and I'm curious, 85 00:04:09,111 --> 00:04:10,131 what do you mean by by that? 86 00:04:10,456 --> 00:04:10,576 Og. 87 00:04:11,229 --> 00:04:13,059 there's a lot of our industry that is. 88 00:04:14,874 --> 00:04:16,854 Trend focused, right? 89 00:04:17,124 --> 00:04:18,624 Someone builds a Calendly. 90 00:04:18,624 --> 00:04:23,364 You don't, you want to know how many people who are building a Calendly beater 91 00:04:23,454 --> 00:04:24,984 that's come to me to consult with them. 92 00:04:25,164 --> 00:04:25,734 You know what I mean? 93 00:04:25,734 --> 00:04:27,444 So people chase trends. 94 00:04:27,534 --> 00:04:32,829 Originality isn't, uh, like a premium in industry, actually even investing. 95 00:04:32,829 --> 00:04:36,654 You know, like you see something that works and you want to, you know, invest 96 00:04:36,654 --> 00:04:39,774 in next Facebook and before you know it, you know, people start chasing, 97 00:04:40,194 --> 00:04:42,444 uh, failed social media startups. 98 00:04:43,194 --> 00:04:50,544 My point is that people who tap into, uh, perennial needs and workflows, 99 00:04:50,574 --> 00:04:54,774 like there's some, there's an undercurrent of value that is the same 100 00:04:54,774 --> 00:04:57,219 from generation to generation, even when the technology level changes. 101 00:04:58,134 --> 00:05:02,094 like, for example, on the consumer side, we know that dating is always gonna make 102 00:05:02,094 --> 00:05:03,924 money if you're ingenious at it, right? 103 00:05:04,194 --> 00:05:07,164 Everything from, uh, plenty of fish to, uh, Tinder, right? 104 00:05:07,464 --> 00:05:10,554 We know that, uh, gamble, I don't wanna say this, but there are all 105 00:05:10,554 --> 00:05:13,404 kinds of things, sports and so on that is that, that are always good. 106 00:05:13,404 --> 00:05:14,599 But the technology changes and the. 107 00:05:15,249 --> 00:05:19,659 Which it, it comes out changes, uh, but also in B2B, people are 108 00:05:19,659 --> 00:05:20,829 always gonna wanna sell stuff. 109 00:05:20,829 --> 00:05:22,239 People are always going to marketing. 110 00:05:22,239 --> 00:05:25,689 People are always gonna want to crunch the numbers and do data analysis. 111 00:05:25,959 --> 00:05:29,649 But the things that we built 10 years ago, 15 are not gonna cut it anymore. 112 00:05:29,649 --> 00:05:32,559 And they're gonna be different because we just got a brand new tool that's 113 00:05:32,559 --> 00:05:33,999 gonna make all the things easier. 114 00:05:34,359 --> 00:05:39,069 So patient builders are people who try to find sharp problems that are deep. 115 00:05:39,129 --> 00:05:40,869 We've had for a very long time. 116 00:05:41,169 --> 00:05:41,589 Right. 117 00:05:41,589 --> 00:05:43,779 You know, Microsoft Office is writing. 118 00:05:44,994 --> 00:05:50,874 50,000 years, uh, math and accounting, 50,000 years, problem. 119 00:05:51,113 --> 00:05:51,654 You know what I mean? 120 00:05:51,654 --> 00:05:52,764 Like email. 121 00:05:53,064 --> 00:05:55,404 Email is, communication is smoke signals. 122 00:05:55,704 --> 00:06:01,014 And so like, patient builders are people who plumb deep needs and then find ways 123 00:06:01,014 --> 00:06:05,364 to express them in new ways that match the next level of technology and convenience. 124 00:06:05,364 --> 00:06:05,844 That's what I mean. 125 00:06:06,358 --> 00:06:07,918 That's a great way to put it. 126 00:06:07,948 --> 00:06:11,818 That it's, yeah, they're, they're deep needs expressed in, in, in different ways. 127 00:06:11,823 --> 00:06:12,988 It's, it's sharp problems. 128 00:06:12,988 --> 00:06:15,988 Like you said, ones that will always be around, but they're, they're 129 00:06:15,988 --> 00:06:17,338 almost like shape shifting in 130 00:06:17,898 --> 00:06:18,048 The 131 00:06:18,283 --> 00:06:20,958 yes, technology shifts around the need. 132 00:06:21,223 --> 00:06:21,313 Sure. 133 00:06:21,685 --> 00:06:22,045 What? 134 00:06:22,105 --> 00:06:25,165 What do you think doesn't shift in all of this? 135 00:06:25,465 --> 00:06:27,819 let, let's put it this way, I, there's something, a thesis we 136 00:06:27,819 --> 00:06:29,109 have is a great replacement. 137 00:06:29,289 --> 00:06:33,159 Like everything you're using today will not be the same in 10 years. 138 00:06:33,519 --> 00:06:35,649 Like they have been the same for 10 years roughly. 139 00:06:36,309 --> 00:06:37,329 They will not be the same. 140 00:06:37,359 --> 00:06:38,289 They will all be replaced. 141 00:06:38,289 --> 00:06:42,519 The only question is, are the people who make them today going to be 142 00:06:42,519 --> 00:06:45,549 the ones who make the new thing, or is it gonna be a new startup? 143 00:06:46,479 --> 00:06:48,129 And the thing that doesn't change is like. 144 00:06:48,669 --> 00:06:50,409 Sorry, I don't want to get existential. 145 00:06:50,409 --> 00:06:50,954 ISN was, 146 00:06:51,264 --> 00:06:51,804 It's okay. 147 00:06:51,804 --> 00:06:52,314 I that 148 00:06:52,314 --> 00:06:52,709 kind of stuff 149 00:06:53,014 --> 00:06:53,234 No. 150 00:06:53,829 --> 00:06:56,649 She was accuse me of not being practical, but the thing, you 151 00:06:57,419 --> 00:06:57,709 It's 152 00:06:57,714 --> 00:07:00,609 know, we we're all mammals, you know what I mean? 153 00:07:00,609 --> 00:07:02,139 Like we need to socialize. 154 00:07:02,139 --> 00:07:06,009 We, there's some things that are, you know, we thought Twitter would 155 00:07:06,009 --> 00:07:08,649 change the world, but it turned out that people just found their tribe 156 00:07:08,709 --> 00:07:10,119 on Twitter and just stuck with it. 157 00:07:10,209 --> 00:07:12,159 And instead of having conversations instead of in a 158 00:07:12,159 --> 00:07:13,779 pub, they just have on Twitter. 159 00:07:14,019 --> 00:07:16,659 So that's what I mean, like some things have changed because 160 00:07:16,719 --> 00:07:18,069 they're rooted in human nature. 161 00:07:18,425 --> 00:07:20,885 So some things, no, I'll just add to that. 162 00:07:20,915 --> 00:07:24,605 Um, some of the things that don't change, like Oji said, the need is the need. 163 00:07:24,605 --> 00:07:26,705 It's a perennial need, it's an underlying need, whether 164 00:07:26,705 --> 00:07:30,155 it's B2C or individual or B2B. 165 00:07:30,485 --> 00:07:32,645 The second I would say is return on investment. 166 00:07:32,675 --> 00:07:33,155 Right? 167 00:07:33,395 --> 00:07:36,635 The people who are paying attention to their, how their investment 168 00:07:36,635 --> 00:07:38,465 is being used and shaped. 169 00:07:39,455 --> 00:07:40,655 Are the ones who will win. 170 00:07:40,655 --> 00:07:45,935 And I say this because, um, we find people who build like, uh, you know, everything 171 00:07:45,935 --> 00:07:50,555 is fast, everything is happening, uh, quickly, and some people rush. 172 00:07:50,735 --> 00:07:53,765 And in that rushing, they're not thinking about the math in the end. 173 00:07:53,765 --> 00:07:58,295 And there're always going to be analogies to currency, right? 174 00:07:58,715 --> 00:08:01,295 Back in the day, in the social media world, it was. 175 00:08:01,625 --> 00:08:02,765 Followers, right? 176 00:08:02,765 --> 00:08:05,555 Followership, then influencers and the, you know, that 177 00:08:05,555 --> 00:08:07,175 became currency in some way. 178 00:08:07,295 --> 00:08:10,505 Building a social network became more important. 179 00:08:10,715 --> 00:08:12,305 Eyeballs became more important. 180 00:08:12,305 --> 00:08:14,350 So there is always an an an, an analogy. 181 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:17,660 To currency in some way. 182 00:08:17,660 --> 00:08:20,750 So I think that it just being able to pay attention to perennial need, 183 00:08:21,260 --> 00:08:25,760 really paying attention to a return on capital, that always will matter, period. 184 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:27,920 Because you have to pay for the future. 185 00:08:28,070 --> 00:08:30,740 And then what is your analogy for currency? 186 00:08:30,740 --> 00:08:32,450 What is your analogy for profitability? 187 00:08:32,450 --> 00:08:33,650 What is your analogy for growth? 188 00:08:33,650 --> 00:08:36,620 Because there always is one in, in, in this day and time. 189 00:08:36,620 --> 00:08:40,160 So I haven't figured out what it is in an AI world, but with every new 190 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,230 technology there often is something. 191 00:08:42,380 --> 00:08:44,930 So just paying attention to what that analogy could be. 192 00:08:45,670 --> 00:08:49,690 technology companies are, we build stuff that make people 193 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,210 either useful or happy, right? 194 00:08:52,450 --> 00:08:56,410 So that doesn't change like founders and product managers and 195 00:08:56,410 --> 00:08:59,500 product marketers and investors. 196 00:08:59,770 --> 00:09:01,570 It's really about build something. 197 00:09:01,570 --> 00:09:02,485 And I love the way like. 198 00:09:03,460 --> 00:09:06,490 Some of these really, like early stage people talk about it. 199 00:09:06,670 --> 00:09:08,890 You build something that people love that is really useful, that 200 00:09:08,890 --> 00:09:10,120 solves a sharp problem for them. 201 00:09:10,570 --> 00:09:12,370 That's one dimension. 202 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:17,380 And the second one is you build a a, um, business model that 203 00:09:17,380 --> 00:09:19,450 makes you money from that, right? 204 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,490 Um, software works really well because the marginal cost of production is zero. 205 00:09:24,910 --> 00:09:28,810 And so if you hit a certain number of customers, you make money. 206 00:09:29,410 --> 00:09:30,130 And a lot of it. 207 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,720 So you make them happy, you solve a real thing, and then you design a 208 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,795 business model that's really efficient and I think those, those won't change. 209 00:09:38,357 --> 00:09:39,257 Awesome answers by the way. 210 00:09:40,097 --> 00:09:44,297 how started with existential, which I love, way into this profound 211 00:09:44,297 --> 00:09:45,917 shift practical practicality. 212 00:09:46,697 --> 00:09:48,662 Let's make it a little bit more practical 'cause you're all about like. 213 00:09:49,577 --> 00:09:53,327 Well, how does someone like a startup, I mean, and let's be honest, like even 214 00:09:53,327 --> 00:09:57,407 if someone hasn't run a startup before and they're listening, watching, they 215 00:09:57,407 --> 00:10:01,037 have some existing business, they probably see maybe a sharp problem that 216 00:10:01,037 --> 00:10:02,717 they wanna solve in their vertical. 217 00:10:03,047 --> 00:10:08,867 So maybe they do the vibe, coding, coding thing, or maybe they just hire some, yeah. 218 00:10:08,872 --> 00:10:10,602 Or, or maybe they're just trying to figure out. 219 00:10:11,492 --> 00:10:15,812 What the, um, what the product market fit is, you know, just like, but how to test 220 00:10:15,812 --> 00:10:17,762 it at it at the smallest possible level. 221 00:10:17,762 --> 00:10:21,512 Like how do you get someone, guess how do you navigate this and how would you 222 00:10:21,512 --> 00:10:23,702 advise someone in that, in that phase? 223 00:10:24,498 --> 00:10:29,748 the way this works is our industry has actually pissed away a lot of money. 224 00:10:30,123 --> 00:10:32,373 Based on the passions of founders. 225 00:10:32,553 --> 00:10:36,093 Like founders wake up one morning and they obsessed with one thing that 226 00:10:36,093 --> 00:10:37,533 they think should change in the world. 227 00:10:38,343 --> 00:10:42,633 The thing that we wish, because we spent so much, many hours talking to them, and 228 00:10:42,633 --> 00:10:45,483 actually I've been a founder, so, and I've made this mistake, so I've lived it. 229 00:10:45,993 --> 00:10:50,073 The thing you should check to see is, is this a sharp problem to anybody else? 230 00:10:50,373 --> 00:10:53,853 Is it the sharper around to 10 people, to 20 people, to a million people? 231 00:10:54,123 --> 00:10:55,203 'cause that's what really matters. 232 00:10:55,203 --> 00:10:56,193 It's not about. 233 00:10:57,153 --> 00:11:00,903 An expression of your need and your ingenuity that you're bringing to market. 234 00:11:00,933 --> 00:11:03,093 That's, that's sort of the old way. 235 00:11:03,093 --> 00:11:04,893 It's really customer satisfaction. 236 00:11:05,013 --> 00:11:09,093 We should be thinking like, uh, you know, like Procter and Gamble, they 237 00:11:09,093 --> 00:11:11,793 don't make a Swiffer until they know that a million people are gonna 238 00:11:11,943 --> 00:11:13,593 buy a Swiffer, if that makes sense. 239 00:11:13,713 --> 00:11:19,443 So it's like, think about the problems of other people, not so much your problem. 240 00:11:19,743 --> 00:11:21,603 And then think about where you have insight. 241 00:11:22,218 --> 00:11:27,048 Uh, so that you can inject passion and stick to iveness when 242 00:11:27,048 --> 00:11:28,068 you're building that startup. 243 00:11:28,128 --> 00:11:33,258 When, uh, Jeff Bezos built Amazon, he built a shopping mart, right? 244 00:11:33,318 --> 00:11:34,008 He built a shopping mar. 245 00:11:34,008 --> 00:11:35,418 I don't even know if he was passionate about it. 246 00:11:35,568 --> 00:11:37,758 I think he was passionate, not just about building shopping mart, but 247 00:11:37,848 --> 00:11:40,998 building something that was more accessible to people than just getting 248 00:11:40,998 --> 00:11:43,818 outta there can driving somewhere else, versus the problem itself is 249 00:11:43,818 --> 00:11:45,978 like, look, this has to transform. 250 00:11:45,978 --> 00:11:48,078 I'm the transform guy of this market. 251 00:11:48,378 --> 00:11:50,508 And so I think you start out by really. 252 00:11:51,138 --> 00:11:55,638 Figuring out, is this a problem that peop a lot of people feel deeply. 253 00:11:56,058 --> 00:11:59,928 And then the second thing is you ask yourself, what would a 254 00:11:59,928 --> 00:12:01,788 transformation of that look like? 255 00:12:02,478 --> 00:12:08,868 And then you build a simple, lovable, but complete version of that and 256 00:12:08,868 --> 00:12:09,708 put it in front of customers. 257 00:12:09,708 --> 00:12:11,508 Sometimes that will take you three months. 258 00:12:12,108 --> 00:12:16,248 If it's a very common problem, it might take you two years because the level 259 00:12:16,248 --> 00:12:20,793 of, you know, when they say MVP, minimum viable, minimum for a. A, a big need 260 00:12:20,793 --> 00:12:23,763 is very high because all, there's a lot of products in the market, and so 261 00:12:23,763 --> 00:12:29,253 you some, like Figma famously built for two years because the, the, the viable 262 00:12:29,253 --> 00:12:31,803 was super high 'cause of Adobe, right? 263 00:12:32,210 --> 00:12:33,993 And so viable took a long time. 264 00:12:34,203 --> 00:12:35,763 So you have to figure out what that is. 265 00:12:36,123 --> 00:12:41,223 Um, the simplest, most, most cogent. 266 00:12:42,018 --> 00:12:44,418 Attention grabbing version of something you can put out. 267 00:12:44,418 --> 00:12:45,828 And it is a variable time. 268 00:12:45,828 --> 00:12:48,948 We want to keep it as short as possible, but it's not always possible 269 00:12:48,948 --> 00:12:50,238 to make it in two weeks or whatever. 270 00:12:50,703 --> 00:12:51,003 Yeah. 271 00:12:51,063 --> 00:12:53,943 And that's where I think these vibe coders and all that, or you 272 00:12:53,943 --> 00:12:57,183 know, like, because everybody has access to cursor now, not to Yeah. 273 00:12:57,423 --> 00:12:57,603 like, 274 00:12:58,048 --> 00:12:58,198 yeah. 275 00:12:58,198 --> 00:13:03,118 I actually think this is an amazing time, um, for that founder you're referring 276 00:13:03,118 --> 00:13:07,708 to who is trying to figure out, okay, I, I found a, a, a, a sharp problem. 277 00:13:07,708 --> 00:13:08,338 How do I move on? 278 00:13:08,338 --> 00:13:11,638 Because I remember the days I ran, um, I ran. 279 00:13:12,533 --> 00:13:15,533 Innovation or whatever it is, startup inside a company. 280 00:13:15,533 --> 00:13:15,893 Right? 281 00:13:16,253 --> 00:13:20,783 And the biggest thing was the time it took to create a prototype, right? 282 00:13:21,083 --> 00:13:24,983 So right now, I think the biggest challenge most founders will find after 283 00:13:24,983 --> 00:13:27,743 they've done everything like you says, is find the sharp problem, really think 284 00:13:27,743 --> 00:13:31,973 through is how do you get access to people so that you can actually test. 285 00:13:32,273 --> 00:13:35,903 That is actually the bigger problem now because prototyping should be easy. 286 00:13:36,113 --> 00:13:39,953 Wizard or vase is all the things you can literally use, cursor, 287 00:13:39,983 --> 00:13:42,808 lovable, all those things to build something that is workable. 288 00:13:43,433 --> 00:13:45,503 So it's actually a really, really interesting time. 289 00:13:45,503 --> 00:13:47,393 So it's one of those get off your but and just do it. 290 00:13:47,633 --> 00:13:52,133 But the hardest part I remember was, you know, having to log into Craigslist and 291 00:13:52,133 --> 00:13:56,813 incentivize people to show up and use and use my product so that, you know, to 292 00:13:56,813 --> 00:13:58,403 test whether it works or it doesn't work. 293 00:13:58,403 --> 00:14:01,673 But that gaining access so that people could actually play around 294 00:14:01,673 --> 00:14:05,093 with that product and give you feedback is, is actually the more 295 00:14:05,093 --> 00:14:06,983 challenging piece now than ever before. 296 00:14:06,983 --> 00:14:09,893 Before it was actually writing the code, building the software. 297 00:14:10,103 --> 00:14:12,893 No Vico coding is making that much easier. 298 00:14:12,893 --> 00:14:17,813 So it's how do you get people and get real feedback because they can 299 00:14:17,813 --> 00:14:19,793 actually use your, your work now. 300 00:14:19,793 --> 00:14:21,443 So that's an interesting challenge. 301 00:14:21,443 --> 00:14:26,213 So for founders listening, you know, it's, it really is more about access to humans 302 00:14:26,333 --> 00:14:27,653 and humans who will tell you the truth. 303 00:14:28,105 --> 00:14:28,885 that's a good point. 304 00:14:28,915 --> 00:14:29,095 Yeah. 305 00:14:29,155 --> 00:14:33,025 So are you saying like trusted people, you know, people maybe that you hire, 306 00:14:33,025 --> 00:14:36,775 bring on your team as, and also people to give you feedback and tell you 307 00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:37,000 No. 308 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:37,075 No. 309 00:14:37,150 --> 00:14:42,190 So, so the thing is, is, is, is, is target, like one of the things 310 00:14:42,190 --> 00:14:44,380 that people do is like they'll build something and they'll put it out in the 311 00:14:44,380 --> 00:14:46,480 world and they'll get mixed feedback. 312 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,140 Well, you should always filter your mixed feedback by your target customers. 313 00:14:50,140 --> 00:14:51,670 So one of the things you should do is. 314 00:14:52,405 --> 00:14:57,535 Any problem, sharp or not, has a profile, a very narrow profile 315 00:14:57,535 --> 00:14:59,545 initially that respond to it. 316 00:14:59,575 --> 00:15:01,045 Not everybody, right? 317 00:15:01,165 --> 00:15:02,455 So sharp problems. 318 00:15:02,665 --> 00:15:06,595 Also attach to narrow target customers. 319 00:15:06,655 --> 00:15:10,135 So find a hundred of them who will experience what you you're 320 00:15:10,135 --> 00:15:11,695 doing for free or for Peter. 321 00:15:11,695 --> 00:15:15,715 Doesn't matter what it is, it depends on what you're testing, what target them. 322 00:15:15,925 --> 00:15:19,825 And I think what isn't is saying is that the bill part is, um. 323 00:15:20,845 --> 00:15:22,555 The built part is super fast. 324 00:15:22,555 --> 00:15:27,475 Now, like we, we met a team in Ukraine who after you get off the phone and 325 00:15:27,475 --> 00:15:30,535 tell 'em about your problem, they'll crank out the prototype in four hours. 326 00:15:31,325 --> 00:15:31,590 that's great. 327 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:32,800 That's okay. 328 00:15:32,935 --> 00:15:33,535 In four hours. 329 00:15:33,820 --> 00:15:34,510 the we're in. 330 00:15:34,675 --> 00:15:34,870 Yeah. 331 00:15:34,975 --> 00:15:37,735 yeah, but if you then get the prototype, what do you do with it? 332 00:15:37,735 --> 00:15:39,685 Well expose it to customers as soon as possible. 333 00:15:39,685 --> 00:15:43,765 Low stakes, beta, whatever you wanna call it, and start to learn, right? 334 00:15:43,795 --> 00:15:45,985 Is that learning process that makes you a viable startup. 335 00:15:46,416 --> 00:15:49,476 Uh, it's incredible and I think that should be the shift that people are 336 00:15:49,476 --> 00:15:52,716 hearing right now is like, okay, the creation piece is, and you could of 337 00:15:52,716 --> 00:15:54,606 course get someone else to do that in. 338 00:15:55,251 --> 00:15:58,401 Like, how would you, would you suggest most people, 'cause it's very simple to 339 00:15:58,401 --> 00:16:02,421 get distracted and start going down the, the lovable train or, you know, cursor, 340 00:16:03,021 --> 00:16:07,971 but it, like, as a, as a founder and, and obviously the, you guys are investing 341 00:16:07,971 --> 00:16:10,161 in these as well with your fund, right? 342 00:16:10,161 --> 00:16:14,496 So like how do you advise someone to maybe, uh, work 343 00:16:14,496 --> 00:16:15,831 with people to help them out? 344 00:16:15,861 --> 00:16:18,681 'cause I know that's a big, that's a challenge right now to find folks 345 00:16:18,681 --> 00:16:23,151 that can think in this way and also you can trust, I know it's kind of 346 00:16:23,151 --> 00:16:24,471 loaded, but where do you start there? 347 00:16:24,862 --> 00:16:32,392 one of the underestimated parts of building is like just building, like 348 00:16:32,392 --> 00:16:36,142 before it was, most founders don't have coding skills, and so you have to find 349 00:16:36,142 --> 00:16:40,012 a team, or at least one person, CTO, whatever you call it, a co-founder. 350 00:16:41,002 --> 00:16:42,922 Now you can just start building it yourself. 351 00:16:42,952 --> 00:16:47,362 Now, honestly, I'll, I'll tell you my synthesis, based on looking 352 00:16:47,362 --> 00:16:48,187 at all these tools is that. 353 00:16:48,967 --> 00:16:51,307 It's actually difficult to build something customer ready with 354 00:16:51,427 --> 00:16:52,867 lovable and so on and so forth. 355 00:16:52,867 --> 00:16:57,037 It's harder than people think because what what happens is you have to 356 00:16:57,037 --> 00:17:00,967 be smart enough to think through all the cus the human parts of 357 00:17:00,967 --> 00:17:02,377 this, not just throw up some code. 358 00:17:02,707 --> 00:17:04,147 Like, does it feel good? 359 00:17:04,147 --> 00:17:05,707 Does this journey hang together? 360 00:17:05,707 --> 00:17:06,757 And very, people aren't intrigued. 361 00:17:06,757 --> 00:17:08,210 Some people go to college for this stuff. 362 00:17:08,377 --> 00:17:08,797 Right? 363 00:17:09,007 --> 00:17:10,117 Does it hang together? 364 00:17:10,537 --> 00:17:13,807 Um, because you can throw up something simple, but something that people will 365 00:17:13,807 --> 00:17:15,877 use for a day, two days and be happy. 366 00:17:15,877 --> 00:17:17,137 That's not trivial. 367 00:17:17,677 --> 00:17:19,117 Uh, but that's getting easier regard. 368 00:17:19,117 --> 00:17:20,107 I know it's how hard it is. 369 00:17:20,107 --> 00:17:21,277 It used to be super hard. 370 00:17:21,487 --> 00:17:23,737 You used to have two developers you work with for two months, 371 00:17:23,737 --> 00:17:24,847 three months, six months. 372 00:17:25,027 --> 00:17:28,597 Now you can put together a prototype yourself, which is actually a very 373 00:17:28,597 --> 00:17:32,497 good PRD, the prototype itself to work with professional developers 374 00:17:32,497 --> 00:17:34,297 who you get online immediately. 375 00:17:35,077 --> 00:17:38,557 And then the thing that happens is you throw it to the first customer. 376 00:17:38,617 --> 00:17:41,167 They love it, but it's basic. 377 00:17:41,467 --> 00:17:42,967 And they're like, change this and change that. 378 00:17:42,967 --> 00:17:45,967 If you're not smart enough to vibe, code the changes and you're stuck. 379 00:17:46,507 --> 00:17:47,399 Does that make sense? 380 00:17:47,467 --> 00:17:50,137 So start, start by yourself. 381 00:17:51,532 --> 00:17:54,052 But don't think that you can go the distance by yourself 382 00:17:54,052 --> 00:17:55,012 unless you're a professional. 383 00:17:55,012 --> 00:17:58,222 There are lots of developers who build like single one man SaaS because 384 00:17:58,222 --> 00:17:59,392 they can't, they, they're trained. 385 00:17:59,452 --> 00:17:59,872 Trained. 386 00:18:00,232 --> 00:18:02,302 But if you're not, start by yourself. 387 00:18:02,302 --> 00:18:07,102 But very quickly, hire people who can continue, who are pro or semi-pro, 388 00:18:07,702 --> 00:18:11,152 because the part of building a software, like we said, is listening to 389 00:18:11,152 --> 00:18:13,672 customer feedback and adjusting to it. 390 00:18:14,032 --> 00:18:15,262 And a lot of people just like. 391 00:18:16,207 --> 00:18:18,577 Can't do that just with vibe coding, right? 392 00:18:18,727 --> 00:18:20,857 Your customer says, do this feature and then you're stuck. 393 00:18:21,063 --> 00:18:23,943 Back in the day, you'd write a product requirement document. 394 00:18:23,943 --> 00:18:27,663 It's a s like a physical document back then you'd have V one, then 395 00:18:27,663 --> 00:18:29,283 you'd have V two, then V three. 396 00:18:29,463 --> 00:18:33,033 By the time the product was launching, you were probably at VA hundred and 397 00:18:33,033 --> 00:18:36,693 something and you were changing words on a page because you learned more. 398 00:18:36,923 --> 00:18:38,963 You, you learn what the requirement was. 399 00:18:38,963 --> 00:18:40,163 You learned what was optional. 400 00:18:40,163 --> 00:18:42,833 You learned what the software developer had to do and what 401 00:18:42,833 --> 00:18:44,183 need could be done, right? 402 00:18:44,183 --> 00:18:45,953 So that's the back in the day. 403 00:18:46,283 --> 00:18:51,773 Right now, to Oji's point, it's important that founders just vibe, code, build that 404 00:18:51,773 --> 00:18:57,263 prototype, but not get stuck and in love with the software on the page, right? 405 00:18:57,323 --> 00:19:02,453 They need to do V two and they can start over again because with V one you, your 406 00:19:02,453 --> 00:19:06,263 goal was not necessarily to have it working in the user's hand, was to learn. 407 00:19:06,903 --> 00:19:10,653 Then V two, you learn again, throw away the other code, build 408 00:19:10,653 --> 00:19:12,693 it again, V four, learn again. 409 00:19:12,873 --> 00:19:13,023 Right. 410 00:19:13,023 --> 00:19:18,363 And if you think of it that way, by the time you're building your V 10, you 411 00:19:18,363 --> 00:19:23,253 have more information of what to give the coding team you're bringing on. 412 00:19:23,463 --> 00:19:23,673 Right. 413 00:19:23,673 --> 00:19:25,083 But if you think of the software as. 414 00:19:26,583 --> 00:19:27,933 are going to get stuck. 415 00:19:27,933 --> 00:19:31,833 But if you use it more as a learning tool, a prototype, your pro product requirement 416 00:19:31,833 --> 00:19:35,943 document that is being re revised each time, and I think you have it, this is, 417 00:19:35,943 --> 00:19:40,473 I was just talking to some like, uh, product person I I mentor and this is 418 00:19:40,473 --> 00:19:41,883 literally what I was just saying to her. 419 00:19:42,153 --> 00:19:43,353 is how you need to think about it. 420 00:19:43,473 --> 00:19:45,153 It's there for you to learn with. 421 00:19:45,498 --> 00:19:49,080 At Product Mind, we believe that PRDs are going the way of the Dodo, right? 422 00:19:50,178 --> 00:19:51,798 A PRD is gonna be an map. 423 00:19:52,083 --> 00:19:54,348 You, you, you, because here's how it works. 424 00:19:54,348 --> 00:19:58,008 You write a PRD, you sit in a meeting with a bunch of developers, you try 425 00:19:58,008 --> 00:20:00,858 to get them to see your vision, and then they write something and they 426 00:20:00,858 --> 00:20:02,358 tell you, is it, is it what you want? 427 00:20:02,808 --> 00:20:03,378 it what you want? 428 00:20:03,528 --> 00:20:06,288 And then you do another PRD and you have another meeting, blah, blah, blah. 429 00:20:06,468 --> 00:20:11,568 No, you the founder, you write the app, but don't think about this as a final app. 430 00:20:11,628 --> 00:20:14,298 It is an avatar of your final lab. 431 00:20:14,298 --> 00:20:15,348 It embodies your vision. 432 00:20:15,348 --> 00:20:16,098 You hand it off. 433 00:20:16,578 --> 00:20:18,468 The developer doesn't need to read a document. 434 00:20:18,468 --> 00:20:24,048 They can see it, they can read the code, and then you can keep revising until you 435 00:20:24,048 --> 00:20:25,788 get an application that customers love. 436 00:20:26,088 --> 00:20:27,708 And they'll know how to make it secure. 437 00:20:27,768 --> 00:20:29,178 They'll know how to make it scalable. 438 00:20:29,298 --> 00:20:32,688 They'll know where the dead ends are, and that is where they come in to 439 00:20:32,688 --> 00:20:34,488 actually finess it and make it beautiful. 440 00:20:34,488 --> 00:20:36,198 But at least you've given them that avatar. 441 00:20:36,288 --> 00:20:37,338 So think of that. 442 00:20:37,428 --> 00:20:40,788 Just run with it and just make your versions to learn. 443 00:20:40,788 --> 00:20:45,588 Put it in your customer's hands and just have them learn and it's okay to trash it. 444 00:20:45,648 --> 00:20:48,858 Take your learnings, take that, put it into the new prompt, right? 445 00:20:49,008 --> 00:20:50,028 And start over. 446 00:20:50,118 --> 00:20:51,198 There's nothing there. 447 00:20:51,198 --> 00:20:53,118 You didn't write that, those lines of code. 448 00:20:53,118 --> 00:20:54,288 So don't be precious about it. 449 00:20:54,308 --> 00:21:00,423 Well, we're working on a project now where we are on V 20 of the app building, 450 00:21:01,325 --> 00:21:01,745 Yeah. 451 00:21:02,045 --> 00:21:05,195 And that's all, that's all through, uh, no code, you know, 452 00:21:05,195 --> 00:21:06,335 all all this stuff that the 453 00:21:06,635 --> 00:21:09,890 Yeah, we're, we're using, we use a mix of things like CEL and so on, 454 00:21:09,890 --> 00:21:12,890 but at, at fowling, uh, we a studio. 455 00:21:12,890 --> 00:21:15,740 So we invest, but we also build, if that makes 456 00:21:15,835 --> 00:21:19,250 have, yeah, a few people building little things that to test and try, so yeah. 457 00:21:19,625 --> 00:21:20,075 I love it. 458 00:21:20,135 --> 00:21:23,825 I mean, would you suggest most people get familiar with these kind of 459 00:21:23,825 --> 00:21:25,685 apps just to see what's possible? 460 00:21:25,685 --> 00:21:26,105 Like have you 461 00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:27,320 hundred percent. 462 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:28,190 Like you should be. 463 00:21:28,190 --> 00:21:30,200 If you're a builder, you should be living in these apps. 464 00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:31,580 They should be your best friend. 465 00:21:32,195 --> 00:21:32,795 Cool. 466 00:21:33,305 --> 00:21:34,655 And you mentioned lovable cursor. 467 00:21:34,655 --> 00:21:36,245 Do you have a, all these 468 00:21:36,406 --> 00:21:39,020 So Vexcel, lovable cursor. 469 00:21:39,020 --> 00:21:41,000 There also de design tools. 470 00:21:41,060 --> 00:21:44,750 Um, on that side, there are website creation tools for the marketing 471 00:21:44,750 --> 00:21:50,120 applications that whatever is speeding up, development by 10 x you should be using. 472 00:21:50,510 --> 00:21:50,930 I love it. 473 00:21:51,380 --> 00:21:55,670 I think your, your analogy to, uh, creating an avatar, it's 474 00:21:55,670 --> 00:21:56,900 just like a customer avatar. 475 00:21:57,110 --> 00:22:01,160 there's psychographics, demographics, all these different qualities that thing. 476 00:22:01,790 --> 00:22:05,450 Um, and it's just a snapshot of that, that person. 477 00:22:05,450 --> 00:22:08,780 But like, that might even change with more data and input 478 00:22:09,410 --> 00:22:10,070 hundred percent. 479 00:22:10,130 --> 00:22:10,760 A hundred percent. 480 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:15,110 Everything is the, the, you know, the, the, the prototype, the vibe coated 481 00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:19,160 thing is a representation of an early, that's how you go from a garden shack 482 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:20,630 to the, the Empire State Building. 483 00:22:20,990 --> 00:22:23,330 Well, you remember that Not everyone matters initially. 484 00:22:23,690 --> 00:22:27,290 Only the people you identify who actually need experiencing this 485 00:22:27,290 --> 00:22:28,880 problem, not the entire world. 486 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,870 Um, those are the people that matter and target them with that thing. 487 00:22:33,335 --> 00:22:35,015 I actually wanna underscore this. 488 00:22:35,045 --> 00:22:38,915 Um, this is something I learned working with Techstars and all the founders. 489 00:22:38,945 --> 00:22:42,425 Um, there, um, it's really important that people listening know that. 490 00:22:44,285 --> 00:22:46,655 When you do put your product, Oji, you said this earlier, 491 00:22:46,655 --> 00:22:47,525 but I need to underscore. 492 00:22:47,525 --> 00:22:51,125 When you put your product out there, you will get feedback, right? 493 00:22:51,125 --> 00:22:55,235 If you get 10 people, but really pay attention and give weight to who we, 494 00:22:55,295 --> 00:22:57,365 what we call the ideal customer profile. 495 00:22:57,395 --> 00:23:01,805 Like you really need to understand who is this thing for and give weight to that. 496 00:23:01,805 --> 00:23:04,895 So even if you've heard from 10 people, four may be the only ones 497 00:23:04,895 --> 00:23:08,045 that actually truly matter because that's who you are targeting first. 498 00:23:08,045 --> 00:23:11,225 You want them to be your early adopters, you're shaping the product around them. 499 00:23:11,570 --> 00:23:15,830 So that's something I noticed that, um, folks that I talk to often haven't 500 00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:18,435 learned and is worth underscoring. 501 00:23:18,785 --> 00:23:20,765 That's a very good underscore. 502 00:23:21,065 --> 00:23:24,125 I think you're gonna save a lot of people a lot of time, I hope. 503 00:23:24,335 --> 00:23:27,875 And money, you know, and, and, and like you said, it's a gold rush right 504 00:23:27,875 --> 00:23:29,675 now, but it's for the patient builders. 505 00:23:29,735 --> 00:23:31,535 I know it's for the focused as well. 506 00:23:31,535 --> 00:23:33,125 Like I've heard a lot of people say that like. 507 00:23:33,665 --> 00:23:36,545 If you just focus in on whatever that sharp problem is 508 00:23:36,545 --> 00:23:37,415 that you're trying to solve. 509 00:23:37,475 --> 00:23:41,435 Obviously with feedback, just remember like we're in a noisy world 510 00:23:41,435 --> 00:23:45,215 that moves super fast and we think that social media is distracting. 511 00:23:45,215 --> 00:23:48,935 I mean, just getting into cursor lovable, then you're gonna like, you 512 00:23:48,935 --> 00:23:51,545 never know, and then think of, oh, what's the other new tool I should try? 513 00:23:51,605 --> 00:23:52,415 It's like, hold 514 00:23:52,415 --> 00:23:53,385 Hundred percent. 515 00:23:53,625 --> 00:23:53,745 I 516 00:23:53,945 --> 00:23:54,725 so squirrel. 517 00:23:55,175 --> 00:23:56,025 Yeah, yeah. 518 00:23:56,270 --> 00:24:00,140 when MCPS came out and everyone was like, oh, you know, everyone is going 519 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,840 and yeah, yeah, every, I would now ignore rest APIs and do MCPS forever. 520 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,190 Mm. No. 521 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:08,030 Yeah, 522 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:09,500 not necessarily. 523 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,410 and if you know what that means, y'all go listen, you know, listen 524 00:24:12,410 --> 00:24:14,330 to some YouTube videos or someone. 525 00:24:15,170 --> 00:24:20,330 But either way, well, what, I kinda wanna wrap it up on this, but tell, 526 00:24:20,420 --> 00:24:25,610 talk to me about a product system and how you guys approach that because. 527 00:24:26,825 --> 00:24:31,055 Maybe, maybe you nail it on a, on the first version or, or single 528 00:24:31,055 --> 00:24:34,085 feature, but how do you keep that going and how do you create a 529 00:24:34,085 --> 00:24:35,600 system out of it that's sustainable? 530 00:24:36,350 --> 00:24:38,780 let, let me, let me offer like a high level definition. 531 00:24:38,780 --> 00:24:43,070 Oji is really good at like, like giving good summaries and succinct 532 00:24:43,070 --> 00:24:44,930 soundbites, so I'll let him end with it. 533 00:24:44,930 --> 00:24:50,330 But first off, a, a product system is actually refers to the things that are 534 00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:52,490 happening within your organization, right? 535 00:24:52,490 --> 00:24:56,720 The different systems that actually interoperate that are present, whether 536 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,430 or not you're paying attention to them. 537 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,890 That lead to the products you build. 538 00:25:01,190 --> 00:25:03,830 And when we talk about a product system, we're actually talking about 539 00:25:03,860 --> 00:25:08,870 three core things no matter what in any company, even a, a little startup. 540 00:25:09,245 --> 00:25:13,235 There's a way in which your people interact with each other, right? 541 00:25:13,415 --> 00:25:16,745 There's a way in which, so we call that the system of people, and there's 542 00:25:16,745 --> 00:25:21,875 also a way in which you are finding strategic direction, how you're making 543 00:25:21,875 --> 00:25:26,225 decisions, how you're prioritizing, and that we call holistically a 544 00:25:26,225 --> 00:25:28,925 strategy or way finding, right? 545 00:25:29,015 --> 00:25:32,105 What decisions matter there, but what's most important. 546 00:25:32,345 --> 00:25:33,575 That's what we call strategy. 547 00:25:33,605 --> 00:25:34,865 There's a system of that. 548 00:25:35,165 --> 00:25:37,385 Then there's also a system of execution. 549 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:38,960 Who does what? 550 00:25:39,050 --> 00:25:40,100 How do they do it? 551 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,360 How does it ladder up into 552 00:25:41,405 --> 00:25:42,425 What tools, what 553 00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:44,060 What tools are we using? 554 00:25:44,210 --> 00:25:46,010 Where do we reference our code? 555 00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:49,550 How do, is it PRDs versus uh, prototypes? 556 00:25:49,610 --> 00:25:50,930 How do they work together? 557 00:25:50,990 --> 00:25:52,670 And that's what we call a system execution. 558 00:25:53,090 --> 00:25:58,460 That is what a product system is really about, whether or not you have sat 559 00:25:58,460 --> 00:25:59,990 down and thought about it that way. 560 00:26:00,545 --> 00:26:01,415 They exist. 561 00:26:01,625 --> 00:26:06,335 So when we, when we name a products operating system, we are actually asking 562 00:26:06,335 --> 00:26:10,925 you to be intentional about how those three things interact with each other 563 00:26:11,255 --> 00:26:15,065 how they, how, how those three things interact with each other and how they 564 00:26:15,065 --> 00:26:19,385 lead to repeatability and scale over time. 565 00:26:19,565 --> 00:26:21,845 So that's really what it really is about. 566 00:26:22,055 --> 00:26:23,795 Oji, you wanna layer in and bring it 567 00:26:23,795 --> 00:26:26,405 No, think I you, think you nailed it. 568 00:26:26,465 --> 00:26:27,755 There are three, four. 569 00:26:27,755 --> 00:26:30,140 Think let's talk about, then, let's use physics as a metaphor. 570 00:26:30,815 --> 00:26:33,725 There are three major forces acting on a startup or any 571 00:26:33,815 --> 00:26:35,855 technological company, right? 572 00:26:35,915 --> 00:26:41,180 People, um, how you find direction and how you execute. 573 00:26:43,775 --> 00:26:48,455 Whether or not you realize that those forces are acting on your startup, 574 00:26:48,545 --> 00:26:49,985 they're acting on your company. 575 00:26:49,985 --> 00:26:54,095 Even if Google right, there's a reason people fret about the direction of 576 00:26:54,095 --> 00:26:55,325 Google, they didn't miss something. 577 00:26:55,325 --> 00:26:56,765 That it's the same thing. 578 00:26:58,115 --> 00:27:04,805 And what we try to teach people is to make those things not, uh, 579 00:27:05,285 --> 00:27:06,695 to make them more intentional. 580 00:27:07,235 --> 00:27:10,445 And we teach people how to interact for, well, those three things. 581 00:27:10,445 --> 00:27:13,805 They the, like how they can do ballet together to make sure that 582 00:27:13,805 --> 00:27:17,135 you have an innovation engine that is humming all the time. 583 00:27:17,855 --> 00:27:22,265 If you have one or two of those things or none of those things, 584 00:27:22,625 --> 00:27:24,335 you'll eventually stutter. 585 00:27:24,995 --> 00:27:25,295 Right. 586 00:27:25,295 --> 00:27:28,925 I at Microsoft when we were stuttering during Obama years, 587 00:27:28,925 --> 00:27:30,905 and I saw this happen, um. 588 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,860 App builder, startup, and it's the same principle. 589 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,270 And in the book we talk a lot about how to optimize the interaction 590 00:27:38,270 --> 00:27:40,040 between those three, right? 591 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,140 So that you are not a one hit wonder. 592 00:27:42,290 --> 00:27:43,880 You can innovate all the time. 593 00:27:44,060 --> 00:27:49,220 'cause when you do it, your organization actually produces new ideas constantly. 594 00:27:49,655 --> 00:27:49,835 because 595 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:50,000 Yeah. 596 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:50,630 We see, 597 00:27:51,620 --> 00:27:52,125 it's intentional. 598 00:27:52,820 --> 00:27:54,650 we, we, if you think about people, right? 599 00:27:54,650 --> 00:28:01,430 You see a founder and employee tension because there isn't this clarity on 600 00:28:01,610 --> 00:28:05,840 let's move to the decision making piece, like what is most important. 601 00:28:05,990 --> 00:28:09,050 So you, so sometimes you'll see that tension, but that tension happens 602 00:28:09,050 --> 00:28:11,600 not necessarily because they're individuals and butting heads. 603 00:28:11,810 --> 00:28:13,970 It's because there probably hasn't been an intentional 604 00:28:13,970 --> 00:28:15,740 conversation of their way finding. 605 00:28:16,175 --> 00:28:17,465 What is the most important thing? 606 00:28:17,465 --> 00:28:18,725 What are we prioritizing? 607 00:28:18,845 --> 00:28:23,375 So that is where the intersection of strategy and um, people. 608 00:28:24,410 --> 00:28:24,830 Right. 609 00:28:24,830 --> 00:28:28,460 That's that interaction, having a, a very clear conversation of 610 00:28:28,670 --> 00:28:30,410 are we fighting for our lives? 611 00:28:30,410 --> 00:28:33,770 Is, I mean, is money the most important thing or is long-term strategy important? 612 00:28:33,770 --> 00:28:39,260 Then without that being said and discussed and like on the table, 613 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,180 then you see this tension occurring. 614 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:41,810 Right? 615 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,320 So you just, when we watch our different companies that we invest 616 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:50,510 in or advise, we see these forces at play and being able to design them 617 00:28:50,510 --> 00:28:52,100 with core intention, like, okay. 618 00:28:52,460 --> 00:28:56,330 Who are the people who are decision makers, who are the people who take from, 619 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,070 um, the decision makers and execute? 620 00:28:58,250 --> 00:29:01,520 Having clarity there, then figuring out what is the most important thing 621 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,190 we're doing Is, is long term strategy more important than short term? 622 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:05,810 What is our mix of investments? 623 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,050 Having clarity there and then also looking at what are the tools we use? 624 00:29:09,050 --> 00:29:11,570 Where can I find these decisions that have been made? 625 00:29:11,570 --> 00:29:11,660 Right? 626 00:29:12,650 --> 00:29:17,510 Um, so all those things are important and you need to be working on them and 627 00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:20,745 figuring out how they, they, they, they, they, they, they work, they interact. 628 00:29:21,305 --> 00:29:21,545 Sorry. 629 00:29:21,545 --> 00:29:23,645 We've said the same thing a few times, but we're trying to, I was 630 00:29:23,660 --> 00:29:24,460 trying to give you an example. 631 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,730 You're driving it home and it's, it's necessary because this is, again, it's 632 00:29:28,730 --> 00:29:30,620 being intentional in the early phases. 633 00:29:30,650 --> 00:29:31,100 Right. 634 00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:35,480 And not just letting it happen at, at whatever whim it's gonna happen. 635 00:29:36,244 --> 00:29:41,014 people think that effort and having fun produces good outcomes. 636 00:29:41,014 --> 00:29:43,684 But I think what we want people to understand is that there's a hidden 637 00:29:43,684 --> 00:29:48,184 rhythm to this thing that they gotta pay attention to regardless of your stage. 638 00:29:48,484 --> 00:29:48,994 Right. 639 00:29:49,174 --> 00:29:49,384 Yeah. 640 00:29:49,384 --> 00:29:50,194 It's always happening. 641 00:29:50,254 --> 00:29:55,144 The people there the way find your strategy the execution, how, how get done. 642 00:29:55,144 --> 00:29:57,244 Like, and they, they evolve, right? 643 00:29:57,244 --> 00:29:58,174 So always that 644 00:29:58,384 --> 00:29:58,834 Oh yeah. 645 00:29:59,314 --> 00:30:02,914 We, we, one of, in the book we talk a lot of, we actually reference stages a 646 00:30:02,914 --> 00:30:06,454 lot where, like, when you're a startup, here's the forces acting on you. 647 00:30:06,454 --> 00:30:11,674 When you are mid here's the forces acting on you and how they're different. 648 00:30:12,064 --> 00:30:14,284 And when you're bigger, here are the forces and how they 649 00:30:14,284 --> 00:30:15,604 act on you at that stage. 650 00:30:15,604 --> 00:30:17,794 So we are actually very, uh, descriptive about it. 651 00:30:18,094 --> 00:30:18,544 Yeah. 652 00:30:18,574 --> 00:30:19,444 No, it's, it's great. 653 00:30:19,444 --> 00:30:24,214 So the book, we've mentioned the, the book by but it's called Building Rocket Ships. 654 00:30:24,514 --> 00:30:28,684 Uh, Amazon or, or actually where you, you guys tell, tell me where, where 655 00:30:28,684 --> 00:30:30,094 can they find building rocket ships? 656 00:30:30,514 --> 00:30:30,874 Right. 657 00:30:30,874 --> 00:30:35,224 So we wrote the book because we want the knowledge about how to build 658 00:30:35,224 --> 00:30:36,214 technology companies, which is. 659 00:30:36,994 --> 00:30:40,744 Somehow still stuck in Silicon Valley and in Seattle and a a few cities 660 00:30:41,509 --> 00:30:41,689 Yeah. 661 00:30:41,689 --> 00:30:41,959 Yeah. 662 00:30:42,004 --> 00:30:43,084 be spread around the world. 663 00:30:43,089 --> 00:30:46,084 We want, we want better products in the world, uh, and happier 664 00:30:46,084 --> 00:30:47,434 customers and rich founders. 665 00:30:48,154 --> 00:30:51,274 And so we building, rocket Building Rocketships. 666 00:30:51,544 --> 00:30:53,224 You can find it on Amazon. 667 00:30:53,224 --> 00:30:56,314 And every edition, uh, there is, I think we're gonna work 668 00:30:56,314 --> 00:30:57,754 on the audio version of that. 669 00:30:58,264 --> 00:31:01,744 And you on, on Shopify, you can see the same additions, but there's 670 00:31:01,744 --> 00:31:03,214 an additional bonus on Shopify. 671 00:31:04,174 --> 00:31:05,374 You have the Pro Edition. 672 00:31:05,374 --> 00:31:07,474 The Pro Edition is a product in and of itself. 673 00:31:07,804 --> 00:31:09,844 It is the book in digital form. 674 00:31:09,934 --> 00:31:13,504 You can also, you, you get the book, you get a digital form of the 675 00:31:13,504 --> 00:31:17,734 book, and you get twice the book in practical templates you can share 676 00:31:17,734 --> 00:31:23,254 with your team to turn it into, you know, acceleration for your career. 677 00:31:23,794 --> 00:31:28,504 And so, Ezinne worked really hard on that version and, uh, I'm so proud of him. 678 00:31:28,834 --> 00:31:29,434 I love it. 679 00:31:29,434 --> 00:31:29,764 Yeah, 680 00:31:29,944 --> 00:31:35,764 so just to make it easy, we are@productmind.co, product mind.co. 681 00:31:35,884 --> 00:31:38,674 And if you do slash book, or if you land on that page, you'll see 682 00:31:38,674 --> 00:31:39,519 something that says, get our book. 683 00:31:40,069 --> 00:31:43,429 That's the fastest way to get the Pro edition, which is the codo 684 00:31:43,429 --> 00:31:45,439 edition, which is interactive. 685 00:31:45,649 --> 00:31:48,529 I'm always looking at it and people are always sending feedback or 686 00:31:48,529 --> 00:31:52,489 questions and we'll update or, so it's a really interactive product as well. 687 00:31:52,489 --> 00:31:56,689 So if that's your, if that's your jam, then definitely go to product mind.co 688 00:31:56,764 --> 00:31:58,144 also join the Product Mind community. 689 00:31:58,144 --> 00:32:01,354 We are curating a bunch of like builders and so that can 690 00:32:01,354 --> 00:32:03,874 talk to and uh, on, on Slack. 691 00:32:03,874 --> 00:32:06,304 So the Product Mind community is also available for people to join 692 00:32:06,304 --> 00:32:07,624 just to talk about this stuff. 693 00:32:08,044 --> 00:32:09,184 That's super helpful. 694 00:32:09,184 --> 00:32:11,044 I, I want more people with communities. 695 00:32:11,134 --> 00:32:12,454 'cause again, we're mammals, right? 696 00:32:12,454 --> 00:32:14,914 Like we, we gotta keep inter that's not changing. 697 00:32:14,914 --> 00:32:15,814 We need to communicate. 698 00:32:15,844 --> 00:32:16,624 I talk about that all the 699 00:32:16,834 --> 00:32:17,824 See, see you. 700 00:32:17,824 --> 00:32:18,634 You're getting it. 701 00:32:18,634 --> 00:32:20,764 There needs under, always 702 00:32:21,124 --> 00:32:25,684 Well, this is why, like the, the clonings to, or the digital twin, it's all just 703 00:32:25,684 --> 00:32:27,514 furthering communication and connection. 704 00:32:27,514 --> 00:32:28,294 That's how I see it. 705 00:32:28,294 --> 00:32:29,434 It's connection scale. 706 00:32:29,524 --> 00:32:30,154 So like. 707 00:32:30,259 --> 00:32:30,709 Yeah. 708 00:32:30,709 --> 00:32:31,579 Connection skill. 709 00:32:31,579 --> 00:32:31,609 I 710 00:32:31,774 --> 00:32:33,004 that's what fires me up. 711 00:32:33,004 --> 00:32:37,084 So I think we all have to take that into this new reality of AI 712 00:32:37,084 --> 00:32:40,204 being everywhere and, you know, who knows what the world looks like 713 00:32:40,264 --> 00:32:44,194 in two years, you hard but, okay. 714 00:32:44,224 --> 00:32:45,394 This is fascinating. 715 00:32:45,424 --> 00:32:48,244 I'm happy that we, um, so go get building rocket ships. 716 00:32:48,244 --> 00:32:48,394 Yeah. 717 00:32:48,394 --> 00:32:52,414 Go to, we will link it all in the show notes, so product mind.co, um, 718 00:32:52,504 --> 00:32:54,574 doing all the things Substack as well. 719 00:32:55,524 --> 00:32:58,279 Ezinne, Oji, It is been awesome. 720 00:32:58,279 --> 00:32:59,509 Thank you so much for your time. 721 00:32:59,659 --> 00:33:00,259 It was an honor. 722 00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:01,189 Get you both. 723 00:33:01,219 --> 00:33:01,369 It was 724 00:33:01,639 --> 00:33:02,059 thank you. 725 00:33:02,149 --> 00:33:02,989 Thank you. 726 00:33:02,989 --> 00:33:03,319 Joe. 727 00:33:03,319 --> 00:33:05,059 We, we had so hanging out with you. 728 00:33:05,089 --> 00:33:05,509 You're very 729 00:33:05,644 --> 00:33:06,304 for having us. 730 00:33:06,304 --> 00:33:07,054 Thanks for having us. 731 00:33:07,249 --> 00:33:07,699 Yeah.