>> Charlie: Hello and welcome back to the Cook Eat Run podcast with X
Miles. I am so excited about today's episode because
I feel like it's a topic I get loads of questions about
online, especially when I share any food that I'm
eating. So I'm excited to get down
to business with dietitian Nicola
Ludlam Rain to talk about ultra processed
foods. So Nicola's better known to
me anyway, and those who followed her online for a while as
NYX nutrition.
>> Charlie: I followed her blog and Instagram for.
>> Charlie: Probably ten years and I'm so thrilled that her debut
book is out next week on the 18 July
how not to eat ultra processed foods. Her book is
a four week plan to help you reduce the amount of ultra
processed foods in your diet. But today's
episode takes it back a little bit, outlining what ultra processed
foods, are, why we should be limiting them in our diet,
and crucially, what to do as runners that often
rely on ultra processed foods to fuel our, miles
for pre post and on the run fuel.
Spoiler alert, Nick doesn't suggest that we stop using
sports nutrition products, thankfully. Otherwise it would be a
bit awkward for a podcast sponsored by XMiles, a sports
nutrition specialist. You can save 10%
off site wide this month with code
cookeatrunjuly ten. So it's the ideal time
to stock up on electrolytes to ensure you're hydrated for your summer
runs.
>> Charlie: So, Nick, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so
excited to talk about something that's really a hot topic
at the moment, which is ultra processed foods.
You've got a book are, all around the subject coming out soon, which we will
go into a little bit later. But first, can you just
explain what ultra processed foods actually
are?
>> Speaker C: Yeah, so the word ultra processed foods, it seems
to have been in vogue in the last year or so, but
actually it was first coined around the
2009 mark in Brazil. And
basically, ultra processed foods are foods that have been
heavily modified, made in factories,
and contain ingredients that you wouldn't usually
find in a home kitchen. So basically, like a
classic example is a packet of skittles. You
cannot create them at home, they have to be
industrially produced. So that's what in essence,
UPfs are. However, some
healthy foods also fall into the category.
So it was designed as a
population like tool, was the
nova, which is where ultra processed foods, the definition has come
from. It was never designed to be like, that food is
healthy, that food is unhealthy.
>> Charlie: So why is it that we or the media
has jumped on this bandwagon and said,
ultra processed foods are awful. We need to avoid
them.
>> Speaker C: It's because studies are coming out that
shows that, people who have diets that are high in
ultra processed food, say, 80% or more,
have poorer health outcomes. So whether that be
weight gain, type two diabetes, high blood pressure,
high cholesterol, even mortality.
However, when you look at these, like, systematic
reviews and meta analyses, the studies tend
to be of poor quality. In general, there are
some good quality, and, sometimes they
haven't taken into account maybe a person's bmi,
or do they smoke their socioeconomic
status. So I do
believe that there is problems with diets that are really
high in UPF, but we can put a blanket
ban on upfsitive. and as with all foods,
it's the portion size and the frequency in which we eat
them that matters the most.
>> Charlie: Okay, so we've kind of said ultra
processed foods, upFs, are processed in a factory.
I mean, I think that when I think
of food, I think of a lot of like, our food has been processed
in a factory at some point, whether it's just the packaging
or creating the food product, things like
granola and things that we typically think of
as quote unquote healthy. Are, there
some that you can give advice on? Like,
these are ones you should be. These are ultra
processed foods that you should be limiting and enjoying in
kind of moderation. And some that you're like, actually, this
is still fine. It does need a certain amount of processing to
get from wherever it was grown or
reared or whatever to your table.
>> Speaker C: Exactly. So I would say like 90 odd percent of the
foods that we eat are processed, quote unquote,
in some way. So, whether that be washing, drying,
freezing, even at home, we do
processing. But then ultra processing takes
it that one step further. And it
requires these additives to
preserve shelf life, to make it look good, to
make it tastier. Three months down the line.
Now, upfs, come on. Spectrum. And this is
why I was so passionate about writing the book. Because not all
ups, like all foods, are created equal.
So you've got ups on one side of the
spectrum. the typical kind of like, your soul
foods, often referred to as junk foods,
like McDonald's foods,
chocolate, bars, sweets, ben and
Jerry's ice cream. You know, all these foods that taste
delicious and they nourish us. maybe
from a mental health, psychological point of view, for out
celebrating with friends. However, they don't do that
much for us physically in the long run. Especially
if we have too much of them. But then on the other side of
the UPS spectrum, you've got
healthier. So basically higher
nutrient value foods such as hummus,
oat, milk, weetabix, whole mill bread,
that can definitely feature within a healthy, balanced
diet on a daily basis, but
technically are classed as ups because of
the ingredients. Now, there is
research emerging and I can always link, sending the
link to a paper that shows that foods, for example,
that are high in whole grain, even though they might have a
UPF, tagline to them, they
are not associated with those poorer health
outcomes because of the benefits that they
provide. They're high in fibre, the high in B vitamins.
So actually, I don't believe. And you
can't bundle all upfs into the same
category. yes. So there is problems with the
research and, you know, the clickbait headlines that we're reading.
>> Charlie: Yeah, I think it can be quite scary for people, especially,
like, you've got kids, I'm trying to work out, what am I
feeling, Bertie? And often it is like
convenience and needing something that is
going to be stable in a
nappy bag, that I can then be like, here you
go. Like you're hungry. Out on the go.
so when we're choosing, like, what would you give advice in
terms of, like, when we're choosing the foods? Because
sometimes, let's be honest, we need the convenience.
How would you suggest people kind of make that
decision? Or what. What information can we give to people
to help make informed decisions when it's kind of like,
this is the ultra processed food that we want to kind of avoid and this
one is fine, like everyday
consumption, like you said.
>> Speaker C: Yeah, and it's a great question. And I'm, you know, a busy
working mom with two little kids, like age two and
five, and we do have things like. Like frozen fish fingers
and baked beans and, although some
supermarkets do sell non upf versions of
them, I do not have the time to go around all these individual
supermarkets selecting it. However, what I would
say is that, let's say you've got a food item that
you consume on a daily basis and you
would like to reduce your intake of
additives associated with ups. Ask
yourself, is there an alternative? And, like, one of the easiest
switches that we often do, not
always, but is, for example, bread. So, like
Jason's sourdough, even the
own brand, sourdough bread, tend to be like,
emulsify free. There's nothing wrong with
emulsifiers, but if you're just trying to cut
down on your additive consumption, trying to increase whole
foods, that might be a good starting point. And then
taking it a step further, what quite a few of my family
members have done, because they eat bread every single day, so
making one little change has a big impact on the
diet. They've actually got themselves a bread maker,
which they actually say over the course of, I think it's like a year or
two is going to save them money. It doesn't require much
time. And, they've now got really creative
making different flavoured breads, adding, you know, olives and sun dried
tomatoes and things like that. So that's
one way that we can reduce ups. But
ultimately, as a dietitian, I always focus on what should
people be doing more of? And if you are
focusing on whole foods, reaching five a day,
having more whole grains, two parts of fish a week, one of which is
oily, all these guidelines, which we've been spouting for,
like, decades now, your consumption
of ups will naturally decline.
So I always say the 80 20 rule, if you're living your life,
you know, 80% whole foods and nourishing foods, you can
have 20% of what you fancy. and
interestingly, I would bundle those more
nutritious upF foods that I mentioned, the
hummus, oat, milk, even like, weetabix, into my
80%. Because let's take
weetabix, for example. The non UPF version of weetabix
would be shredded wheat, but shredded wheat isn't
fortified. So I choose to give my kids
weetabix because it's got added iron. It's
plant based iron. But, yeah, so
there are lots of nuances depending on what food. And
that's why you can't just say, don't eat upfs.
>> Charlie: It's so, like, you and I have degrees in this, and I
sometimes find myself in the supermarket being like, what is the best
option to give for me and also for my son?
And I'm like, if this is taking me this long, to make this
decision, like, it's so
overwhelming that no wonder there's so much kind of
confusion and misinformation.
>> Speaker C: When I first started writing the book, I had to do some serious
talking to other dietitians and reflecting, thinking,
like, what does this information mean and how best
is the information to be translated? And that's like, I've got
15 years of experience doing this. So, yeah, you're
not alone. And, like, I think a classic example, when I
really started looking at food labels and ingredients
lists, is I went on the train and I ordered a
sandwich, and this sandwich, the ingredients
list, there might have been about
hundred ingredients in this one sandwich if
I had made the sandwich at home, which I
probably would do if I was going on a train regularly, but I
don't. So once in a blue moon is fine. It might have
had less than ten ingredients in total. So
that's just like, one great example of how,
you know, it depends on how often you do something, you know, what do
you need to change your book?
>> Charlie: How not to eat ultra processed foods is a 30 day plan to
help people make small changes to their diets. And out at the end of
July, we'll make sure to link it so that people can buy it.
And can you tell us a little bit more about the book, the
recipes, the advice kind of included? Obviously, don't give away all of
your secrets. We want people to get the book, but just
a little summary.
>> Speaker C: Yeah, so the book so. Well, it's 60,000 words,
so I'm not going to give away all of it. But
it's kind of in two parts. And the first part is kind
of like the reasons why we should be eating
more whole foods and fewer ups.
And I talk a lot about the psychology of eating
as well. So, like, understanding the different
types of hunger. And I think that this is really important
because we know, you know, that if you give someone a
diet plan, nine times out of ten, like, it might
sound like a good idea, but it doesn't work out
because you need the backstory and you need the why. And what
the book does is it gives people the tools
to make informed choices and decisions.
And what I do is I walk you through week by
week. Week one, we look at drinks and snacks.
We then look at breakfast, lunch, evening meal, and then there's
an optional week five for desserts. So
often when people are wanting to make changes to their diet, it can be
really overwhelming. They've got all this information and
misinformation, and they don't know where to start. So I
always say, start with a food diary. Be
your own diet detective. Write down what you're eating, and, most
importantly, why, for example, are you
having a packet of biscuits at 03:00 p.m. because your lunch
was a tomato soup, there was no protein,
there was no whole grains. So actually, it's not
about taking away that packet of biscuits. It's about
adding in nutrients at lunch. And then you might just have
a couple of biscuits at, mid afternoon, or maybe none at all,
because you haven't had that craving hit because you're satisfied from
lunch. So that's like the premise of the book. And I've
included, I think there's over like 20 recipes and
I like over 100 different meal and snack
ideas that are easy to do.
and especially if you're busy. There's a premise
that I encourage people to cook once, eat twice. So
there's lots of different tricks and things,
practical ideas and ways that you can modify your environment
to make the healthy choice. The easy choice, like opening the
fridge, other crudites and healthy dips.
Is there a fruit bowl on the side? Where is your biscuit tin? Is it
next to the kettle? Or is it in an inconvenient location,
like a cupboard?
>> Charlie: I love that. Yeah. And I've definitely been guilty and being like, why am I
starving? And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I had soup and, nothing for lunch.
And like 304:00. Mine is
like starving. Bit of boredom,
you know, like kind of wanting to get to the end of the workday
habit, other people's choices. So, yeah, I can't wait
to read the book. So this
podcast is aimed primarily at,
runners, at, cyclists, at endurance athletes,
many of whom rely on sports nutrition to fuel
their long runs, their training, their races.
Do we count sports nutrition products as
upfs, as ultra processed foods?
>> Speaker C: That's a big question. I mean, so there's lots of different
products that fall under that term, everything from whey
protein to sports drinks and sports gels.
And I had a little Google before we were
speaking at, the actual ingredients in these
products. And, so I'm sorry to say that, yeah, most of
these products would be classed as ups because there's things like
maltodextrin, there's a lot of ingredients that you wouldn't
have in a home kitchen. However, there
is a caveat. These health
complications, for example, like type two diabetes and
high blood pressure, are arising from
people basing their diets on,
ultra processed foods. And the problem with
ultra processed foods in general is that they
encourage the overconsumption of calories
because they're very easy to eat and they're very moreish, you know, because
they taste good. And secondly, they
displace other nutrients because if you've got a
diet that's really high in UPF, then you're not
eating the whole foods. However, runners and
athletes are a completely different kettle of fish. They
in general will have a healthy,
balanced diet based on whole foods with sufficient
carbohydrates and protein to fuel their training. And then
these products are an add on to
support your training. And let's say you're
having an energy gel partway through a run,
that glucose is going to be metabolised almost
instantly. You don't need the presence of insulin to absorb that
glucose because your muscle cells are, contracting and
are absorbing it from the blood. So you're not going to get a
prolonged sugar spike, which can
cause problems to do. The eyes and
kidneys and such like. So it's a completely different
kettle of fish.
>> Charlie: I'm really glad you said that because I personally know
that I feel better
and perform better on
gels that are designed specifically for me to be
taking mid run rather than a banana
or something that's going to be higher in fibre or higher in fat
or just take longer to digest. So, yeah,
that's, that's really good to hear. And, what about
our, pre run and our post run fuel?
So I personally really like
Rice Krispies squares as a pre run. When
I'm doing a really early morning run, I don't have
time to make a whole breakfast and I don't have time to
sit, eat it and digest it. I
choose a Rice Krispies square, which
is definitely ultra processed. but
should I be making that change or is it okay
because I am doing it maybe twice a
week? There's a reason I'm having that Rice Krispies
square to fuel my run and then I'm coming back and having like, eggs
on toast or something.
>> Speaker C: Exactly. So first of all, the frequency, so you're maybe
doing that twice a week. And second of all, you're having
it a certain time before a
run. So as that glucose is being broken
down, your muscle cells are literally mopping it
up. And also there is goodness
and adverted commas in all foods. So that Rice Krispies
Square has probably got some added nutrients in there as well. And
then you're following it up with whole foods.
And let's say if we said, right, we're going to swap
that rice Krispies Square for a banana and nut
butter, that banana and nut butter could actually sit
quite heavy on your stomach and then cause you to feel sluggish
and then you're not going to get a great workout in and it might
affect you psychologically. you and I both know that health
is more than just what we eat. It's how
we're feeling, it's how we're working out how we're feeling from
a mental health point of view, as well as socialising and stress management.
So it's all of these things together. So I think
it's doing what is right for you. But
keeping in mind, what does your diet look throughout the week? So
if, say, you were following it up with another rice Krispie bar,
we could say, well, maybe afterwards, you know, we
could think of, you know, more adding in some whole grains and
protein, which you are doing naturally.
but let's say it was, it might be the flip side.
Someone's having a fairly wholesome lunch and
then a couple of hours later they're going on a run and
actually they have to get back to work really quickly. So maybe
in that scenario, maybe a protein shake is the best
thing because we rather them have a protein
shake than leave it four or 5 hours before their
next meal. Because there's that window of opportunity. It's not 30
minutes, but within 2 hours after a workout, you really want to
be getting in some carbohydrate and protein. So I would
say either before or after getting those whole
foods. But then the other side of, you know, if
it's a high GI food, then it doesn't really
matter because it's for a purpose.
>> Charlie: Okay. So we're kind of looking at as a, as
a whole week rather than necessarily
each day. Like, how often you having them. What's
the purpose for having them? Is it just because
you haven't eaten a good enough, you know, a
fulfilling enough lunch that you're reaching for this ultra
processed food? Or is it that it actually, because it digests so
quickly, because you get the glucose spike
that's perfect for your run?
Yeah, that reassures me.
>> Speaker C: Yeah. A food diary would give you that information and
reassurance.
>> Charlie: Yeah. My cupboard is literally full of rice krispies squares. I
feel like the local, supermarket think I'm completely mad,
but, yeah, it's the only thing that sits really well for
me. in terms of. So
for marathons, we car blowed
and that's like the three days before the race.
And thinking about what I used
to carb load, quite a lot of it is going
to have been ultra processed. I used rice
krispies, I used sports nutrition drinks. I
had random crackers from Trader
Joe's. I had Gatorade. I had,
I did try and have some whole foods. So I had like
coconut water and orange juice. Like fresh orange
juice,
bagels, pancakes.
So I mean, a real mixture.
>> Charlie: The.
>> Charlie: We probably do that. most people are running a marathon
less often than twice a year. Three times. I mean,
maybe some people are running more often than that. But is that
okay for us to be using those
when it is over a longer period of time? So it is
over that three day period, but still serves a
purpose?
>> Speaker C: That's a really good question. And I would say, I mean, I would
almost like write down all of the different carb options
which you're going to be getting in and, just have a look to see if
there is a balance because as well
as, the carbohydrates, you want to be asking yourself,
like, what other nutrients do I want to get in? Like, do I want
to get in some b vitamins? Do I want to make sure I'm getting
in some protein as well? and within the
whole foods, for example, pasta is not
an ultra processed food, it's just wheat and a bit of
water. You've got a couple of questions there. is it white
pasta or is it wholemeal? You might
choose white pasta when you're carb loading because it's got less
fibre in. So you're going to be able to get more
of it inside of you. And the same, for example, with rice, you might
go for white basmati or even white long
grain as opposed to whole grain. So
there's always, I always say, make informed
decisions based on your lifestyle and
scenario. So I would say, ideally, yeah, go for whole
foods, but if you need to get in those ups, then it's
fine. And, I think I gave an example recently on social media.
You mentioned some crackers. I love
these Ritz crackers. And I had a look at the ingredients and they
totally were ups. I would say just serve
them alongside some whole foods. So why not have some
crudite, some carrot sticks and cucumber and
hummus alongside to make it into a little bit more
of a nourishing snack. So you still got your carbohydrate, but then
you've also got some nourishing foods in there as well.
But really, you know, three days or
six days out of a year is not going to have a
massive impact. So yeah, I would
say, yeah, keep in mind balance, but also in
context of, the whole year and it's not that many
days, I think, with.
>> Charlie: The studies and I'm sure you've found this, but often
it's looking at sedentary people, people that
you don't take into consideration or they don't necessarily
take into consideration the rest of the lifestyle choices these
people are making. and so
actually, if you are
healthy, exercising, eating whole foods the
majority of the time, choosing these kind
of the ultra processed foods,
as you say, like kind of having some in the 80% that
are like the healthy ones and then having some in the 20%
actually makes you. Gives
you balance. Because I think we can become obsessed,
especially as athletes, with what we're putting in our body
and it can become an unhealthy obsession.
>> Speaker C: Exactly. I was actually just before you said that, I was
going to say, I feel like the whole conversation around ups
is creating a lot of unnecessary health anxiety.
It's almost like worrying the worried. Well, even
more if you've got athletes who are out there running,
I could guarantee that they're not going to have an excessive amount of
alcohol in their system, they're not going to be
smoking. the stress management should be pretty good
because they'll be outside and running, so they
shouldn't have to worry about the amount of
upfront. something that does spring to mind, actually,
especially when you're like carb loading for a
marathon and we're talking about fibre intake is
just for runners, especially to keep an eye on their
bowels. And if you are, for example,
training for a marathon, why not carb load for three
days, as a practise, and
see how your body responds? Because it would be
horrendous if, for example, you were like, do you know what? Healthy eating is
going to go out the window. I'm going to have a load of UPF carbs, a load of white
cubs, and then you get constipated and like, on the marathon
day, you know, your bowels haven't opened, so that's something
to keep in mind as well.
>> Charlie: Yeah, definitely. Like, the pre race poo is
essential. I feel like runners talk about these
kind of things way more than the average person. But
your line of work, you talk about them. I'm sure it's just as much as I
do. But, on that note,
thank you so much. Where can people find you if they've got more
questions? Want to learn more about the book? And I know you share
a lot of really good, helpful,
evidence based nutritional information, so
where can people find that?
>> Speaker C: Thank you. So I usually hang out over on Instagram.
I'm ixnutrition nicsnutrition. And,
yeah, the book, how not to eat ultra processed
is out very soon. 18 July. Available from
Amazon and all good bookshops. But yes, spoiler alert,
it's not about never eating upfs again.
>> Charlie: Thank you so much. I will link all of that below. and
yeah, I'm, so glad to hear that we can keep in our
hummus and our rice Krispies squares and
m most importantly, our sports nutrition.
>> Speaker C: Cool. Thank you so much for having me, Charlie.
>> Charlie: Thank you so much for listening to this episode
of the Cook Eat Run podcast.
Really appreciate any feedback, any reviews you
can leave wherever you listen to your
podcasts. Don't forget you can use code
cookeatrunJuly 10th for 10% off site
wide at ex miles and they've actually got a really cool new
nutrition calculator to take the stress out of
calculating your endurance fueling strategies.
You can create a personalised nutrition plan tailored to your
sport, distance, predicted time, and then build your
nutrition list by adding products to match the plan.
So it'll give you targets like pre run carbs, on the
run carbs, post run carbs, protein,
etcetera and you just drag and drop. Or you kind
of search for the products that you know you like. Or
you can have a look and search through their list of products and it will give you
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Give it a try. Use code cookeatrunjuly ten to
save on your list. Thank you so much for listening to today's
episode. Please don't forget to subscribe and like leave a
rating and review. Share the episode if you enjoyed it. Thanks
so much to Nicola for coming on and chatting with
me and so much luck with her book. You can can
get it at all good bookshops from the 18th of, July.
It's called how not to eat ultra
processed food. So definitely give that a look up and
see how you get on. Let me know what you think.