1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,286 >> Charlie: Hello and welcome back to the Cook Eat Run podcast with X 2 00:00:05,318 --> 00:00:08,310 Miles. I am so excited about today's episode because 3 00:00:08,350 --> 00:00:10,878 I feel like it's a topic I get loads of questions about 4 00:00:10,934 --> 00:00:13,622 online, especially when I share any food that I'm 5 00:00:13,646 --> 00:00:16,350 eating. So I'm excited to get down 6 00:00:16,430 --> 00:00:19,262 to business with dietitian Nicola 7 00:00:19,286 --> 00:00:22,270 Ludlam Rain to talk about ultra processed 8 00:00:22,310 --> 00:00:25,262 foods. So Nicola's better known to 9 00:00:25,286 --> 00:00:28,248 me anyway, and those who followed her online for a while as 10 00:00:28,296 --> 00:00:29,568 NYX nutrition. 11 00:00:29,736 --> 00:00:31,384 >> Charlie: I followed her blog and Instagram for. 12 00:00:31,424 --> 00:00:34,388 >> Charlie: Probably ten years and I'm so thrilled that her debut 13 00:00:34,436 --> 00:00:37,024 book is out next week on the 18 July 14 00:00:37,444 --> 00:00:40,316 how not to eat ultra processed foods. Her book is 15 00:00:40,340 --> 00:00:42,924 a four week plan to help you reduce the amount of ultra 16 00:00:42,964 --> 00:00:45,828 processed foods in your diet. But today's 17 00:00:45,876 --> 00:00:48,876 episode takes it back a little bit, outlining what ultra processed 18 00:00:48,900 --> 00:00:51,716 foods, are, why we should be limiting them in our diet, 19 00:00:51,820 --> 00:00:54,676 and crucially, what to do as runners that often 20 00:00:54,740 --> 00:00:57,446 rely on ultra processed foods to fuel our, miles 21 00:00:57,566 --> 00:01:00,026 for pre post and on the run fuel. 22 00:01:00,576 --> 00:01:03,424 Spoiler alert, Nick doesn't suggest that we stop using 23 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,360 sports nutrition products, thankfully. Otherwise it would be a 24 00:01:06,368 --> 00:01:09,096 bit awkward for a podcast sponsored by XMiles, a sports 25 00:01:09,136 --> 00:01:12,048 nutrition specialist. You can save 10% 26 00:01:12,112 --> 00:01:13,928 off site wide this month with code 27 00:01:13,992 --> 00:01:16,968 cookeatrunjuly ten. So it's the ideal time 28 00:01:16,992 --> 00:01:19,832 to stock up on electrolytes to ensure you're hydrated for your summer 29 00:01:19,864 --> 00:01:20,596 runs. 30 00:01:22,856 --> 00:01:25,656 >> Charlie: So, Nick, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so 31 00:01:25,696 --> 00:01:28,656 excited to talk about something that's really a hot topic 32 00:01:28,696 --> 00:01:31,584 at the moment, which is ultra processed foods. 33 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,558 You've got a book are, all around the subject coming out soon, which we will 34 00:01:34,590 --> 00:01:37,494 go into a little bit later. But first, can you just 35 00:01:37,558 --> 00:01:39,934 explain what ultra processed foods actually 36 00:01:40,038 --> 00:01:40,682 are? 37 00:01:41,062 --> 00:01:44,030 >> Speaker C: Yeah, so the word ultra processed foods, it seems 38 00:01:44,046 --> 00:01:46,870 to have been in vogue in the last year or so, but 39 00:01:46,926 --> 00:01:49,374 actually it was first coined around the 40 00:01:49,398 --> 00:01:52,006 2009 mark in Brazil. And 41 00:01:52,054 --> 00:01:54,806 basically, ultra processed foods are foods that have been 42 00:01:54,854 --> 00:01:57,846 heavily modified, made in factories, 43 00:01:57,974 --> 00:02:00,566 and contain ingredients that you wouldn't usually 44 00:02:00,614 --> 00:02:03,600 find in a home kitchen. So basically, like a 45 00:02:03,616 --> 00:02:06,464 classic example is a packet of skittles. You 46 00:02:06,488 --> 00:02:09,368 cannot create them at home, they have to be 47 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,288 industrially produced. So that's what in essence, 48 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,072 UPfs are. However, some 49 00:02:15,152 --> 00:02:17,720 healthy foods also fall into the category. 50 00:02:17,776 --> 00:02:20,000 So it was designed as a 51 00:02:20,056 --> 00:02:23,048 population like tool, was the 52 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,064 nova, which is where ultra processed foods, the definition has come 53 00:02:26,088 --> 00:02:28,904 from. It was never designed to be like, that food is 54 00:02:28,928 --> 00:02:30,852 healthy, that food is unhealthy. 55 00:02:31,562 --> 00:02:34,562 >> Charlie: So why is it that we or the media 56 00:02:34,722 --> 00:02:37,330 has jumped on this bandwagon and said, 57 00:02:37,426 --> 00:02:40,098 ultra processed foods are awful. We need to avoid 58 00:02:40,130 --> 00:02:40,658 them. 59 00:02:40,810 --> 00:02:43,402 >> Speaker C: It's because studies are coming out that 60 00:02:43,442 --> 00:02:46,300 shows that, people who have diets that are high in 61 00:02:46,340 --> 00:02:48,988 ultra processed food, say, 80% or more, 62 00:02:49,164 --> 00:02:51,876 have poorer health outcomes. So whether that be 63 00:02:51,948 --> 00:02:54,948 weight gain, type two diabetes, high blood pressure, 64 00:02:55,004 --> 00:02:57,040 high cholesterol, even mortality. 65 00:02:57,610 --> 00:03:00,354 However, when you look at these, like, systematic 66 00:03:00,402 --> 00:03:03,290 reviews and meta analyses, the studies tend 67 00:03:03,330 --> 00:03:06,306 to be of poor quality. In general, there are 68 00:03:06,338 --> 00:03:08,920 some good quality, and, sometimes they 69 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,848 haven't taken into account maybe a person's bmi, 70 00:03:11,944 --> 00:03:14,416 or do they smoke their socioeconomic 71 00:03:14,448 --> 00:03:17,256 status. So I do 72 00:03:17,288 --> 00:03:20,120 believe that there is problems with diets that are really 73 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:22,984 high in UPF, but we can put a blanket 74 00:03:23,032 --> 00:03:25,864 ban on upfsitive. and as with all foods, 75 00:03:25,912 --> 00:03:28,872 it's the portion size and the frequency in which we eat 76 00:03:28,896 --> 00:03:30,300 them that matters the most. 77 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,376 >> Charlie: Okay, so we've kind of said ultra 78 00:03:33,408 --> 00:03:36,358 processed foods, upFs, are processed in a factory. 79 00:03:36,414 --> 00:03:39,342 I mean, I think that when I think 80 00:03:39,366 --> 00:03:42,238 of food, I think of a lot of like, our food has been processed 81 00:03:42,334 --> 00:03:45,166 in a factory at some point, whether it's just the packaging 82 00:03:45,238 --> 00:03:47,694 or creating the food product, things like 83 00:03:47,742 --> 00:03:50,294 granola and things that we typically think of 84 00:03:50,342 --> 00:03:53,320 as quote unquote healthy. Are, there 85 00:03:53,352 --> 00:03:56,344 some that you can give advice on? Like, 86 00:03:56,464 --> 00:03:59,344 these are ones you should be. These are ultra 87 00:03:59,384 --> 00:04:02,288 processed foods that you should be limiting and enjoying in 88 00:04:02,296 --> 00:04:05,240 kind of moderation. And some that you're like, actually, this 89 00:04:05,272 --> 00:04:08,136 is still fine. It does need a certain amount of processing to 90 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,904 get from wherever it was grown or 91 00:04:10,944 --> 00:04:13,524 reared or whatever to your table. 92 00:04:14,224 --> 00:04:17,072 >> Speaker C: Exactly. So I would say like 90 odd percent of the 93 00:04:17,088 --> 00:04:19,933 foods that we eat are processed, quote unquote, 94 00:04:20,013 --> 00:04:22,581 in some way. So, whether that be washing, drying, 95 00:04:22,637 --> 00:04:24,869 freezing, even at home, we do 96 00:04:24,901 --> 00:04:27,845 processing. But then ultra processing takes 97 00:04:27,869 --> 00:04:30,349 it that one step further. And it 98 00:04:30,381 --> 00:04:33,069 requires these additives to 99 00:04:33,141 --> 00:04:36,125 preserve shelf life, to make it look good, to 100 00:04:36,149 --> 00:04:38,573 make it tastier. Three months down the line. 101 00:04:38,733 --> 00:04:41,661 Now, upfs, come on. Spectrum. And this is 102 00:04:41,677 --> 00:04:44,629 why I was so passionate about writing the book. Because not all 103 00:04:44,661 --> 00:04:47,431 ups, like all foods, are created equal. 104 00:04:47,557 --> 00:04:50,316 So you've got ups on one side of the 105 00:04:50,340 --> 00:04:53,038 spectrum. the typical kind of like, your soul 106 00:04:53,086 --> 00:04:55,554 foods, often referred to as junk foods, 107 00:04:55,614 --> 00:04:58,324 like McDonald's foods, 108 00:04:59,424 --> 00:05:02,332 chocolate, bars, sweets, ben and 109 00:05:02,348 --> 00:05:05,020 Jerry's ice cream. You know, all these foods that taste 110 00:05:05,052 --> 00:05:07,760 delicious and they nourish us. maybe 111 00:05:07,792 --> 00:05:10,624 from a mental health, psychological point of view, for out 112 00:05:10,664 --> 00:05:13,384 celebrating with friends. However, they don't do that 113 00:05:13,424 --> 00:05:16,312 much for us physically in the long run. Especially 114 00:05:16,408 --> 00:05:19,208 if we have too much of them. But then on the other side of 115 00:05:19,216 --> 00:05:21,520 the UPS spectrum, you've got 116 00:05:21,632 --> 00:05:24,604 healthier. So basically higher 117 00:05:24,904 --> 00:05:27,656 nutrient value foods such as hummus, 118 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,616 oat, milk, weetabix, whole mill bread, 119 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,440 that can definitely feature within a healthy, balanced 120 00:05:33,472 --> 00:05:36,072 diet on a daily basis, but 121 00:05:36,128 --> 00:05:38,976 technically are classed as ups because of 122 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,626 the ingredients. Now, there is 123 00:05:41,690 --> 00:05:44,602 research emerging and I can always link, sending the 124 00:05:44,618 --> 00:05:47,554 link to a paper that shows that foods, for example, 125 00:05:47,594 --> 00:05:50,482 that are high in whole grain, even though they might have a 126 00:05:50,498 --> 00:05:53,176 UPF, tagline to them, they 127 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,088 are not associated with those poorer health 128 00:05:56,136 --> 00:05:58,816 outcomes because of the benefits that they 129 00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:01,520 provide. They're high in fibre, the high in B vitamins. 130 00:06:01,632 --> 00:06:04,320 So actually, I don't believe. And you 131 00:06:04,352 --> 00:06:06,696 can't bundle all upfs into the same 132 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,646 category. yes. So there is problems with the 133 00:06:09,670 --> 00:06:12,494 research and, you know, the clickbait headlines that we're reading. 134 00:06:12,614 --> 00:06:15,438 >> Charlie: Yeah, I think it can be quite scary for people, especially, 135 00:06:15,526 --> 00:06:18,302 like, you've got kids, I'm trying to work out, what am I 136 00:06:18,318 --> 00:06:21,166 feeling, Bertie? And often it is like 137 00:06:21,230 --> 00:06:24,174 convenience and needing something that is 138 00:06:24,214 --> 00:06:27,078 going to be stable in a 139 00:06:27,246 --> 00:06:30,166 nappy bag, that I can then be like, here you 140 00:06:30,190 --> 00:06:32,514 go. Like you're hungry. Out on the go. 141 00:06:32,794 --> 00:06:35,776 so when we're choosing, like, what would you give advice in 142 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,504 terms of, like, when we're choosing the foods? Because 143 00:06:38,544 --> 00:06:40,764 sometimes, let's be honest, we need the convenience. 144 00:06:41,384 --> 00:06:43,824 How would you suggest people kind of make that 145 00:06:43,864 --> 00:06:46,848 decision? Or what. What information can we give to people 146 00:06:46,896 --> 00:06:49,736 to help make informed decisions when it's kind of like, 147 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:52,568 this is the ultra processed food that we want to kind of avoid and this 148 00:06:52,616 --> 00:06:55,304 one is fine, like everyday 149 00:06:55,344 --> 00:06:56,644 consumption, like you said. 150 00:06:57,184 --> 00:07:00,056 >> Speaker C: Yeah, and it's a great question. And I'm, you know, a busy 151 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,976 working mom with two little kids, like age two and 152 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,788 five, and we do have things like. Like frozen fish fingers 153 00:07:05,836 --> 00:07:08,294 and baked beans and, although some 154 00:07:08,334 --> 00:07:11,046 supermarkets do sell non upf versions of 155 00:07:11,070 --> 00:07:13,670 them, I do not have the time to go around all these individual 156 00:07:13,702 --> 00:07:16,694 supermarkets selecting it. However, what I would 157 00:07:16,734 --> 00:07:19,646 say is that, let's say you've got a food item that 158 00:07:19,670 --> 00:07:22,486 you consume on a daily basis and you 159 00:07:22,510 --> 00:07:24,994 would like to reduce your intake of 160 00:07:25,294 --> 00:07:28,230 additives associated with ups. Ask 161 00:07:28,262 --> 00:07:30,942 yourself, is there an alternative? And, like, one of the easiest 162 00:07:30,998 --> 00:07:33,838 switches that we often do, not 163 00:07:33,886 --> 00:07:36,544 always, but is, for example, bread. So, like 164 00:07:36,584 --> 00:07:39,368 Jason's sourdough, even the 165 00:07:39,416 --> 00:07:41,984 own brand, sourdough bread, tend to be like, 166 00:07:42,024 --> 00:07:44,640 emulsify free. There's nothing wrong with 167 00:07:44,672 --> 00:07:47,448 emulsifiers, but if you're just trying to cut 168 00:07:47,496 --> 00:07:50,432 down on your additive consumption, trying to increase whole 169 00:07:50,488 --> 00:07:53,344 foods, that might be a good starting point. And then 170 00:07:53,384 --> 00:07:56,296 taking it a step further, what quite a few of my family 171 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,264 members have done, because they eat bread every single day, so 172 00:07:59,304 --> 00:08:02,000 making one little change has a big impact on the 173 00:08:02,032 --> 00:08:04,656 diet. They've actually got themselves a bread maker, 174 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,632 which they actually say over the course of, I think it's like a year or 175 00:08:07,648 --> 00:08:10,648 two is going to save them money. It doesn't require much 176 00:08:10,696 --> 00:08:13,488 time. And, they've now got really creative 177 00:08:13,536 --> 00:08:16,176 making different flavoured breads, adding, you know, olives and sun dried 178 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,984 tomatoes and things like that. So that's 179 00:08:19,104 --> 00:08:21,552 one way that we can reduce ups. But 180 00:08:21,608 --> 00:08:24,528 ultimately, as a dietitian, I always focus on what should 181 00:08:24,576 --> 00:08:27,104 people be doing more of? And if you are 182 00:08:27,144 --> 00:08:30,048 focusing on whole foods, reaching five a day, 183 00:08:30,096 --> 00:08:33,096 having more whole grains, two parts of fish a week, one of which is 184 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,776 oily, all these guidelines, which we've been spouting for, 185 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,776 like, decades now, your consumption 186 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,608 of ups will naturally decline. 187 00:08:41,736 --> 00:08:44,680 So I always say the 80 20 rule, if you're living your life, 188 00:08:44,712 --> 00:08:47,536 you know, 80% whole foods and nourishing foods, you can 189 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:49,916 have 20% of what you fancy. and 190 00:08:49,948 --> 00:08:52,844 interestingly, I would bundle those more 191 00:08:52,892 --> 00:08:55,508 nutritious upF foods that I mentioned, the 192 00:08:55,524 --> 00:08:58,244 hummus, oat, milk, even like, weetabix, into my 193 00:08:58,292 --> 00:09:00,926 80%. Because let's take 194 00:09:00,958 --> 00:09:03,942 weetabix, for example. The non UPF version of weetabix 195 00:09:04,006 --> 00:09:06,974 would be shredded wheat, but shredded wheat isn't 196 00:09:07,022 --> 00:09:09,470 fortified. So I choose to give my kids 197 00:09:09,510 --> 00:09:12,414 weetabix because it's got added iron. It's 198 00:09:12,462 --> 00:09:15,010 plant based iron. But, yeah, so 199 00:09:15,470 --> 00:09:18,302 there are lots of nuances depending on what food. And 200 00:09:18,326 --> 00:09:20,758 that's why you can't just say, don't eat upfs. 201 00:09:20,854 --> 00:09:23,782 >> Charlie: It's so, like, you and I have degrees in this, and I 202 00:09:23,806 --> 00:09:26,614 sometimes find myself in the supermarket being like, what is the best 203 00:09:26,662 --> 00:09:29,600 option to give for me and also for my son? 204 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,276 And I'm like, if this is taking me this long, to make this 205 00:09:32,308 --> 00:09:34,588 decision, like, it's so 206 00:09:34,644 --> 00:09:37,500 overwhelming that no wonder there's so much kind of 207 00:09:37,580 --> 00:09:39,560 confusion and misinformation. 208 00:09:39,940 --> 00:09:42,820 >> Speaker C: When I first started writing the book, I had to do some serious 209 00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:45,764 talking to other dietitians and reflecting, thinking, 210 00:09:45,892 --> 00:09:48,828 like, what does this information mean and how best 211 00:09:48,964 --> 00:09:51,732 is the information to be translated? And that's like, I've got 212 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:54,732 15 years of experience doing this. So, yeah, you're 213 00:09:54,756 --> 00:09:57,678 not alone. And, like, I think a classic example, when I 214 00:09:57,694 --> 00:10:00,302 really started looking at food labels and ingredients 215 00:10:00,366 --> 00:10:02,998 lists, is I went on the train and I ordered a 216 00:10:03,014 --> 00:10:05,502 sandwich, and this sandwich, the ingredients 217 00:10:05,566 --> 00:10:08,206 list, there might have been about 218 00:10:08,278 --> 00:10:11,182 hundred ingredients in this one sandwich if 219 00:10:11,206 --> 00:10:14,118 I had made the sandwich at home, which I 220 00:10:14,174 --> 00:10:17,166 probably would do if I was going on a train regularly, but I 221 00:10:17,198 --> 00:10:20,070 don't. So once in a blue moon is fine. It might have 222 00:10:20,110 --> 00:10:23,014 had less than ten ingredients in total. So 223 00:10:23,142 --> 00:10:25,926 that's just like, one great example of how, 224 00:10:25,998 --> 00:10:28,954 you know, it depends on how often you do something, you know, what do 225 00:10:28,962 --> 00:10:30,890 you need to change your book? 226 00:10:30,970 --> 00:10:33,882 >> Charlie: How not to eat ultra processed foods is a 30 day plan to 227 00:10:33,906 --> 00:10:36,786 help people make small changes to their diets. And out at the end of 228 00:10:36,818 --> 00:10:39,530 July, we'll make sure to link it so that people can buy it. 229 00:10:39,650 --> 00:10:42,482 And can you tell us a little bit more about the book, the 230 00:10:42,506 --> 00:10:45,402 recipes, the advice kind of included? Obviously, don't give away all of 231 00:10:45,426 --> 00:10:48,362 your secrets. We want people to get the book, but just 232 00:10:48,386 --> 00:10:49,390 a little summary. 233 00:10:49,890 --> 00:10:52,826 >> Speaker C: Yeah, so the book so. Well, it's 60,000 words, 234 00:10:52,858 --> 00:10:55,818 so I'm not going to give away all of it. But 235 00:10:55,834 --> 00:10:58,798 it's kind of in two parts. And the first part is kind 236 00:10:58,814 --> 00:11:01,318 of like the reasons why we should be eating 237 00:11:01,454 --> 00:11:04,198 more whole foods and fewer ups. 238 00:11:04,294 --> 00:11:07,254 And I talk a lot about the psychology of eating 239 00:11:07,302 --> 00:11:10,070 as well. So, like, understanding the different 240 00:11:10,110 --> 00:11:13,094 types of hunger. And I think that this is really important 241 00:11:13,182 --> 00:11:16,182 because we know, you know, that if you give someone a 242 00:11:16,206 --> 00:11:19,094 diet plan, nine times out of ten, like, it might 243 00:11:19,142 --> 00:11:21,798 sound like a good idea, but it doesn't work out 244 00:11:21,894 --> 00:11:24,822 because you need the backstory and you need the why. And what 245 00:11:24,846 --> 00:11:27,582 the book does is it gives people the tools 246 00:11:27,686 --> 00:11:30,266 to make informed choices and decisions. 247 00:11:30,398 --> 00:11:33,274 And what I do is I walk you through week by 248 00:11:33,322 --> 00:11:36,258 week. Week one, we look at drinks and snacks. 249 00:11:36,314 --> 00:11:39,218 We then look at breakfast, lunch, evening meal, and then there's 250 00:11:39,234 --> 00:11:41,938 an optional week five for desserts. So 251 00:11:42,074 --> 00:11:45,018 often when people are wanting to make changes to their diet, it can be 252 00:11:45,034 --> 00:11:47,666 really overwhelming. They've got all this information and 253 00:11:47,698 --> 00:11:50,562 misinformation, and they don't know where to start. So I 254 00:11:50,586 --> 00:11:53,546 always say, start with a food diary. Be 255 00:11:53,578 --> 00:11:56,562 your own diet detective. Write down what you're eating, and, most 256 00:11:56,618 --> 00:11:59,436 importantly, why, for example, are you 257 00:11:59,460 --> 00:12:02,428 having a packet of biscuits at 03:00 p.m. because your lunch 258 00:12:02,516 --> 00:12:05,420 was a tomato soup, there was no protein, 259 00:12:05,452 --> 00:12:08,220 there was no whole grains. So actually, it's not 260 00:12:08,252 --> 00:12:11,020 about taking away that packet of biscuits. It's about 261 00:12:11,092 --> 00:12:13,988 adding in nutrients at lunch. And then you might just have 262 00:12:14,036 --> 00:12:16,816 a couple of biscuits at, mid afternoon, or maybe none at all, 263 00:12:16,928 --> 00:12:19,696 because you haven't had that craving hit because you're satisfied from 264 00:12:19,728 --> 00:12:22,496 lunch. So that's like the premise of the book. And I've 265 00:12:22,528 --> 00:12:25,304 included, I think there's over like 20 recipes and 266 00:12:25,392 --> 00:12:28,134 I like over 100 different meal and snack 267 00:12:28,182 --> 00:12:30,370 ideas that are easy to do. 268 00:12:30,930 --> 00:12:33,874 and especially if you're busy. There's a premise 269 00:12:33,922 --> 00:12:36,826 that I encourage people to cook once, eat twice. So 270 00:12:36,938 --> 00:12:39,530 there's lots of different tricks and things, 271 00:12:39,650 --> 00:12:42,578 practical ideas and ways that you can modify your environment 272 00:12:42,674 --> 00:12:45,218 to make the healthy choice. The easy choice, like opening the 273 00:12:45,234 --> 00:12:48,146 fridge, other crudites and healthy dips. 274 00:12:48,218 --> 00:12:51,154 Is there a fruit bowl on the side? Where is your biscuit tin? Is it 275 00:12:51,162 --> 00:12:54,138 next to the kettle? Or is it in an inconvenient location, 276 00:12:54,194 --> 00:12:55,150 like a cupboard? 277 00:12:55,610 --> 00:12:58,422 >> Charlie: I love that. Yeah. And I've definitely been guilty and being like, why am I 278 00:12:58,446 --> 00:13:01,024 starving? And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I had soup and, nothing for lunch. 279 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,888 And like 304:00. Mine is 280 00:13:03,912 --> 00:13:06,636 like starving. Bit of boredom, 281 00:13:06,976 --> 00:13:09,556 you know, like kind of wanting to get to the end of the workday 282 00:13:10,256 --> 00:13:13,208 habit, other people's choices. So, yeah, I can't wait 283 00:13:13,232 --> 00:13:15,896 to read the book. So this 284 00:13:15,936 --> 00:13:18,806 podcast is aimed primarily at, 285 00:13:18,802 --> 00:13:21,458 runners, at, cyclists, at endurance athletes, 286 00:13:21,634 --> 00:13:24,506 many of whom rely on sports nutrition to fuel 287 00:13:24,538 --> 00:13:27,190 their long runs, their training, their races. 288 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,624 Do we count sports nutrition products as 289 00:13:30,752 --> 00:13:32,792 upfs, as ultra processed foods? 290 00:13:32,896 --> 00:13:35,608 >> Speaker C: That's a big question. I mean, so there's lots of different 291 00:13:35,664 --> 00:13:38,240 products that fall under that term, everything from whey 292 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,736 protein to sports drinks and sports gels. 293 00:13:40,848 --> 00:13:43,336 And I had a little Google before we were 294 00:13:43,368 --> 00:13:45,914 speaking at, the actual ingredients in these 295 00:13:45,946 --> 00:13:48,816 products. And, so I'm sorry to say that, yeah, most of 296 00:13:48,832 --> 00:13:51,744 these products would be classed as ups because there's things like 297 00:13:51,816 --> 00:13:54,816 maltodextrin, there's a lot of ingredients that you wouldn't 298 00:13:54,872 --> 00:13:57,760 have in a home kitchen. However, there 299 00:13:57,784 --> 00:14:00,312 is a caveat. These health 300 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,224 complications, for example, like type two diabetes and 301 00:14:03,256 --> 00:14:05,800 high blood pressure, are arising from 302 00:14:05,864 --> 00:14:08,488 people basing their diets on, 303 00:14:08,786 --> 00:14:11,610 ultra processed foods. And the problem with 304 00:14:11,658 --> 00:14:14,178 ultra processed foods in general is that they 305 00:14:14,282 --> 00:14:16,994 encourage the overconsumption of calories 306 00:14:17,050 --> 00:14:19,978 because they're very easy to eat and they're very moreish, you know, because 307 00:14:20,002 --> 00:14:22,496 they taste good. And secondly, they 308 00:14:22,576 --> 00:14:25,424 displace other nutrients because if you've got a 309 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,308 diet that's really high in UPF, then you're not 310 00:14:28,332 --> 00:14:31,076 eating the whole foods. However, runners and 311 00:14:31,116 --> 00:14:33,988 athletes are a completely different kettle of fish. They 312 00:14:34,012 --> 00:14:36,460 in general will have a healthy, 313 00:14:36,588 --> 00:14:39,444 balanced diet based on whole foods with sufficient 314 00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:42,552 carbohydrates and protein to fuel their training. And then 315 00:14:42,608 --> 00:14:45,088 these products are an add on to 316 00:14:45,136 --> 00:14:48,080 support your training. And let's say you're 317 00:14:48,112 --> 00:14:50,976 having an energy gel partway through a run, 318 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,024 that glucose is going to be metabolised almost 319 00:14:54,104 --> 00:14:57,056 instantly. You don't need the presence of insulin to absorb that 320 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,972 glucose because your muscle cells are, contracting and 321 00:14:59,980 --> 00:15:02,764 are absorbing it from the blood. So you're not going to get a 322 00:15:02,796 --> 00:15:05,404 prolonged sugar spike, which can 323 00:15:05,476 --> 00:15:08,204 cause problems to do. The eyes and 324 00:15:08,236 --> 00:15:11,052 kidneys and such like. So it's a completely different 325 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:12,004 kettle of fish. 326 00:15:12,116 --> 00:15:15,088 >> Charlie: I'm really glad you said that because I personally know 327 00:15:15,128 --> 00:15:17,508 that I feel better 328 00:15:17,848 --> 00:15:20,200 and perform better on 329 00:15:20,384 --> 00:15:23,280 gels that are designed specifically for me to be 330 00:15:23,304 --> 00:15:26,144 taking mid run rather than a banana 331 00:15:26,256 --> 00:15:29,184 or something that's going to be higher in fibre or higher in fat 332 00:15:29,216 --> 00:15:31,888 or just take longer to digest. So, yeah, 333 00:15:31,928 --> 00:15:34,440 that's, that's really good to hear. And, what about 334 00:15:34,740 --> 00:15:37,720 our, pre run and our post run fuel? 335 00:15:37,832 --> 00:15:40,688 So I personally really like 336 00:15:40,736 --> 00:15:43,656 Rice Krispies squares as a pre run. When 337 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,480 I'm doing a really early morning run, I don't have 338 00:15:46,512 --> 00:15:49,304 time to make a whole breakfast and I don't have time to 339 00:15:49,344 --> 00:15:51,688 sit, eat it and digest it. I 340 00:15:51,736 --> 00:15:54,352 choose a Rice Krispies square, which 341 00:15:54,488 --> 00:15:57,254 is definitely ultra processed. but 342 00:15:57,594 --> 00:16:00,234 should I be making that change or is it okay 343 00:16:00,274 --> 00:16:02,946 because I am doing it maybe twice a 344 00:16:02,970 --> 00:16:05,870 week? There's a reason I'm having that Rice Krispies 345 00:16:05,902 --> 00:16:08,846 square to fuel my run and then I'm coming back and having like, eggs 346 00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:09,994 on toast or something. 347 00:16:10,374 --> 00:16:13,310 >> Speaker C: Exactly. So first of all, the frequency, so you're maybe 348 00:16:13,342 --> 00:16:15,798 doing that twice a week. And second of all, you're having 349 00:16:15,846 --> 00:16:18,590 it a certain time before a 350 00:16:18,622 --> 00:16:21,238 run. So as that glucose is being broken 351 00:16:21,286 --> 00:16:24,216 down, your muscle cells are literally mopping it 352 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,096 up. And also there is goodness 353 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,136 and adverted commas in all foods. So that Rice Krispies 354 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,152 Square has probably got some added nutrients in there as well. And 355 00:16:33,168 --> 00:16:35,920 then you're following it up with whole foods. 356 00:16:36,032 --> 00:16:38,908 And let's say if we said, right, we're going to swap 357 00:16:38,956 --> 00:16:41,500 that rice Krispies Square for a banana and nut 358 00:16:41,532 --> 00:16:44,436 butter, that banana and nut butter could actually sit 359 00:16:44,460 --> 00:16:47,212 quite heavy on your stomach and then cause you to feel sluggish 360 00:16:47,308 --> 00:16:50,268 and then you're not going to get a great workout in and it might 361 00:16:50,316 --> 00:16:53,278 affect you psychologically. you and I both know that health 362 00:16:53,326 --> 00:16:56,222 is more than just what we eat. It's how 363 00:16:56,238 --> 00:16:59,142 we're feeling, it's how we're working out how we're feeling from 364 00:16:59,158 --> 00:17:02,128 a mental health point of view, as well as socialising and stress management. 365 00:17:02,286 --> 00:17:05,260 So it's all of these things together. So I think 366 00:17:05,292 --> 00:17:08,092 it's doing what is right for you. But 367 00:17:08,188 --> 00:17:11,044 keeping in mind, what does your diet look throughout the week? So 368 00:17:11,124 --> 00:17:13,924 if, say, you were following it up with another rice Krispie bar, 369 00:17:14,004 --> 00:17:17,004 we could say, well, maybe afterwards, you know, we 370 00:17:17,044 --> 00:17:19,996 could think of, you know, more adding in some whole grains and 371 00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:22,744 protein, which you are doing naturally. 372 00:17:23,294 --> 00:17:25,990 but let's say it was, it might be the flip side. 373 00:17:26,062 --> 00:17:28,886 Someone's having a fairly wholesome lunch and 374 00:17:28,910 --> 00:17:31,478 then a couple of hours later they're going on a run and 375 00:17:31,526 --> 00:17:34,510 actually they have to get back to work really quickly. So maybe 376 00:17:34,542 --> 00:17:37,454 in that scenario, maybe a protein shake is the best 377 00:17:37,494 --> 00:17:40,326 thing because we rather them have a protein 378 00:17:40,350 --> 00:17:43,310 shake than leave it four or 5 hours before their 379 00:17:43,342 --> 00:17:46,262 next meal. Because there's that window of opportunity. It's not 30 380 00:17:46,318 --> 00:17:49,318 minutes, but within 2 hours after a workout, you really want to 381 00:17:49,326 --> 00:17:52,006 be getting in some carbohydrate and protein. So I would 382 00:17:52,030 --> 00:17:54,934 say either before or after getting those whole 383 00:17:54,974 --> 00:17:57,620 foods. But then the other side of, you know, if 384 00:17:57,652 --> 00:18:00,548 it's a high GI food, then it doesn't really 385 00:18:00,596 --> 00:18:02,092 matter because it's for a purpose. 386 00:18:02,228 --> 00:18:05,020 >> Charlie: Okay. So we're kind of looking at as a, as 387 00:18:05,052 --> 00:18:07,852 a whole week rather than necessarily 388 00:18:08,028 --> 00:18:10,916 each day. Like, how often you having them. What's 389 00:18:10,940 --> 00:18:13,864 the purpose for having them? Is it just because 390 00:18:14,164 --> 00:18:16,860 you haven't eaten a good enough, you know, a 391 00:18:17,012 --> 00:18:19,860 fulfilling enough lunch that you're reaching for this ultra 392 00:18:19,892 --> 00:18:22,700 processed food? Or is it that it actually, because it digests so 393 00:18:22,732 --> 00:18:25,318 quickly, because you get the glucose spike 394 00:18:25,516 --> 00:18:27,414 that's perfect for your run? 395 00:18:28,274 --> 00:18:31,130 Yeah, that reassures me. 396 00:18:31,282 --> 00:18:33,666 >> Speaker C: Yeah. A food diary would give you that information and 397 00:18:33,690 --> 00:18:34,314 reassurance. 398 00:18:34,394 --> 00:18:37,378 >> Charlie: Yeah. My cupboard is literally full of rice krispies squares. I 399 00:18:37,386 --> 00:18:40,330 feel like the local, supermarket think I'm completely mad, 400 00:18:40,442 --> 00:18:43,186 but, yeah, it's the only thing that sits really well for 401 00:18:43,210 --> 00:18:46,076 me. in terms of. So 402 00:18:46,140 --> 00:18:48,824 for marathons, we car blowed 403 00:18:49,244 --> 00:18:52,162 and that's like the three days before the race. 404 00:18:52,308 --> 00:18:55,046 And thinking about what I used 405 00:18:55,150 --> 00:18:58,078 to carb load, quite a lot of it is going 406 00:18:58,086 --> 00:19:00,694 to have been ultra processed. I used rice 407 00:19:00,734 --> 00:19:03,606 krispies, I used sports nutrition drinks. I 408 00:19:03,790 --> 00:19:06,726 had random crackers from Trader 409 00:19:06,750 --> 00:19:09,194 Joe's. I had Gatorade. I had, 410 00:19:09,624 --> 00:19:12,280 I did try and have some whole foods. So I had like 411 00:19:12,432 --> 00:19:15,056 coconut water and orange juice. Like fresh orange 412 00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:15,844 juice, 413 00:19:17,144 --> 00:19:19,832 bagels, pancakes. 414 00:19:19,928 --> 00:19:21,884 So I mean, a real mixture. 415 00:19:22,664 --> 00:19:23,072 >> Charlie: The. 416 00:19:23,128 --> 00:19:25,792 >> Charlie: We probably do that. most people are running a marathon 417 00:19:26,252 --> 00:19:29,228 less often than twice a year. Three times. I mean, 418 00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:31,772 maybe some people are running more often than that. But is that 419 00:19:31,812 --> 00:19:34,612 okay for us to be using those 420 00:19:34,692 --> 00:19:37,604 when it is over a longer period of time? So it is 421 00:19:37,628 --> 00:19:39,964 over that three day period, but still serves a 422 00:19:39,988 --> 00:19:40,712 purpose? 423 00:19:41,092 --> 00:19:44,020 >> Speaker C: That's a really good question. And I would say, I mean, I would 424 00:19:44,036 --> 00:19:46,756 almost like write down all of the different carb options 425 00:19:46,844 --> 00:19:49,730 which you're going to be getting in and, just have a look to see if 426 00:19:49,746 --> 00:19:52,234 there is a balance because as well 427 00:19:52,258 --> 00:19:55,122 as, the carbohydrates, you want to be asking yourself, 428 00:19:55,162 --> 00:19:58,114 like, what other nutrients do I want to get in? Like, do I want 429 00:19:58,138 --> 00:20:01,066 to get in some b vitamins? Do I want to make sure I'm getting 430 00:20:01,114 --> 00:20:04,014 in some protein as well? and within the 431 00:20:04,038 --> 00:20:06,926 whole foods, for example, pasta is not 432 00:20:06,974 --> 00:20:09,678 an ultra processed food, it's just wheat and a bit of 433 00:20:09,710 --> 00:20:12,434 water. You've got a couple of questions there. is it white 434 00:20:12,482 --> 00:20:15,164 pasta or is it wholemeal? You might 435 00:20:15,332 --> 00:20:18,276 choose white pasta when you're carb loading because it's got less 436 00:20:18,308 --> 00:20:21,172 fibre in. So you're going to be able to get more 437 00:20:21,196 --> 00:20:24,076 of it inside of you. And the same, for example, with rice, you might 438 00:20:24,108 --> 00:20:27,044 go for white basmati or even white long 439 00:20:27,092 --> 00:20:29,716 grain as opposed to whole grain. So 440 00:20:29,828 --> 00:20:32,356 there's always, I always say, make informed 441 00:20:32,388 --> 00:20:34,852 decisions based on your lifestyle and 442 00:20:34,876 --> 00:20:37,796 scenario. So I would say, ideally, yeah, go for whole 443 00:20:37,828 --> 00:20:40,692 foods, but if you need to get in those ups, then it's 444 00:20:40,716 --> 00:20:43,690 fine. And, I think I gave an example recently on social media. 445 00:20:43,770 --> 00:20:46,758 You mentioned some crackers. I love 446 00:20:46,854 --> 00:20:49,470 these Ritz crackers. And I had a look at the ingredients and they 447 00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:52,462 totally were ups. I would say just serve 448 00:20:52,486 --> 00:20:55,046 them alongside some whole foods. So why not have some 449 00:20:55,158 --> 00:20:57,902 crudite, some carrot sticks and cucumber and 450 00:20:57,926 --> 00:21:00,774 hummus alongside to make it into a little bit more 451 00:21:00,822 --> 00:21:03,742 of a nourishing snack. So you still got your carbohydrate, but then 452 00:21:03,766 --> 00:21:06,662 you've also got some nourishing foods in there as well. 453 00:21:06,806 --> 00:21:09,638 But really, you know, three days or 454 00:21:09,694 --> 00:21:12,406 six days out of a year is not going to have a 455 00:21:12,438 --> 00:21:15,336 massive impact. So yeah, I would 456 00:21:15,368 --> 00:21:18,000 say, yeah, keep in mind balance, but also in 457 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,582 context of, the whole year and it's not that many 458 00:21:20,614 --> 00:21:22,382 days, I think, with. 459 00:21:22,414 --> 00:21:25,350 >> Charlie: The studies and I'm sure you've found this, but often 460 00:21:25,398 --> 00:21:28,374 it's looking at sedentary people, people that 461 00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:31,342 you don't take into consideration or they don't necessarily 462 00:21:31,374 --> 00:21:34,262 take into consideration the rest of the lifestyle choices these 463 00:21:34,294 --> 00:21:37,088 people are making. and so 464 00:21:37,272 --> 00:21:39,796 actually, if you are 465 00:21:40,106 --> 00:21:42,938 healthy, exercising, eating whole foods the 466 00:21:42,962 --> 00:21:45,698 majority of the time, choosing these kind 467 00:21:45,722 --> 00:21:48,410 of the ultra processed foods, 468 00:21:48,538 --> 00:21:51,434 as you say, like kind of having some in the 80% that 469 00:21:51,450 --> 00:21:54,058 are like the healthy ones and then having some in the 20% 470 00:21:54,202 --> 00:21:57,194 actually makes you. Gives 471 00:21:57,210 --> 00:21:59,802 you balance. Because I think we can become obsessed, 472 00:21:59,874 --> 00:22:02,738 especially as athletes, with what we're putting in our body 473 00:22:02,802 --> 00:22:05,366 and it can become an unhealthy obsession. 474 00:22:06,036 --> 00:22:09,004 >> Speaker C: Exactly. I was actually just before you said that, I was 475 00:22:09,020 --> 00:22:11,964 going to say, I feel like the whole conversation around ups 476 00:22:12,020 --> 00:22:14,780 is creating a lot of unnecessary health anxiety. 477 00:22:14,948 --> 00:22:17,644 It's almost like worrying the worried. Well, even 478 00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:20,576 more if you've got athletes who are out there running, 479 00:22:20,996 --> 00:22:23,868 I could guarantee that they're not going to have an excessive amount of 480 00:22:23,892 --> 00:22:26,292 alcohol in their system, they're not going to be 481 00:22:26,324 --> 00:22:29,246 smoking. the stress management should be pretty good 482 00:22:29,286 --> 00:22:31,926 because they'll be outside and running, so they 483 00:22:31,966 --> 00:22:34,254 shouldn't have to worry about the amount of 484 00:22:34,270 --> 00:22:36,968 upfront. something that does spring to mind, actually, 485 00:22:37,032 --> 00:22:39,808 especially when you're like carb loading for a 486 00:22:39,832 --> 00:22:42,520 marathon and we're talking about fibre intake is 487 00:22:42,568 --> 00:22:45,128 just for runners, especially to keep an eye on their 488 00:22:45,152 --> 00:22:47,992 bowels. And if you are, for example, 489 00:22:48,024 --> 00:22:50,432 training for a marathon, why not carb load for three 490 00:22:50,504 --> 00:22:53,372 days, as a practise, and 491 00:22:53,404 --> 00:22:56,108 see how your body responds? Because it would be 492 00:22:56,172 --> 00:22:59,108 horrendous if, for example, you were like, do you know what? Healthy eating is 493 00:22:59,132 --> 00:23:01,982 going to go out the window. I'm going to have a load of UPF carbs, a load of white 494 00:23:02,014 --> 00:23:04,990 cubs, and then you get constipated and like, on the marathon 495 00:23:05,038 --> 00:23:07,990 day, you know, your bowels haven't opened, so that's something 496 00:23:08,038 --> 00:23:09,586 to keep in mind as well. 497 00:23:09,926 --> 00:23:12,774 >> Charlie: Yeah, definitely. Like, the pre race poo is 498 00:23:12,830 --> 00:23:15,782 essential. I feel like runners talk about these 499 00:23:15,814 --> 00:23:18,386 kind of things way more than the average person. But 500 00:23:18,686 --> 00:23:21,558 your line of work, you talk about them. I'm sure it's just as much as I 501 00:23:21,582 --> 00:23:24,578 do. But, on that note, 502 00:23:24,762 --> 00:23:27,762 thank you so much. Where can people find you if they've got more 503 00:23:27,794 --> 00:23:30,610 questions? Want to learn more about the book? And I know you share 504 00:23:30,658 --> 00:23:33,434 a lot of really good, helpful, 505 00:23:33,610 --> 00:23:36,378 evidence based nutritional information, so 506 00:23:36,442 --> 00:23:37,874 where can people find that? 507 00:23:38,050 --> 00:23:40,786 >> Speaker C: Thank you. So I usually hang out over on Instagram. 508 00:23:40,866 --> 00:23:43,776 I'm ixnutrition nicsnutrition. And, 509 00:23:43,726 --> 00:23:46,324 yeah, the book, how not to eat ultra processed 510 00:23:46,420 --> 00:23:49,332 is out very soon. 18 July. Available from 511 00:23:49,364 --> 00:23:52,180 Amazon and all good bookshops. But yes, spoiler alert, 512 00:23:52,228 --> 00:23:54,976 it's not about never eating upfs again. 513 00:23:55,716 --> 00:23:58,484 >> Charlie: Thank you so much. I will link all of that below. and 514 00:23:58,540 --> 00:24:01,190 yeah, I'm, so glad to hear that we can keep in our 515 00:24:01,206 --> 00:24:03,944 hummus and our rice Krispies squares and 516 00:24:04,294 --> 00:24:06,344 m most importantly, our sports nutrition. 517 00:24:07,244 --> 00:24:09,544 >> Speaker C: Cool. Thank you so much for having me, Charlie. 518 00:24:11,324 --> 00:24:14,036 >> Charlie: Thank you so much for listening to this episode 519 00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:16,384 of the Cook Eat Run podcast. 520 00:24:16,684 --> 00:24:19,652 Really appreciate any feedback, any reviews you 521 00:24:19,668 --> 00:24:21,700 can leave wherever you listen to your 522 00:24:21,732 --> 00:24:24,668 podcasts. Don't forget you can use code 523 00:24:24,716 --> 00:24:27,590 cookeatrunJuly 10th for 10% off site 524 00:24:27,622 --> 00:24:30,390 wide at ex miles and they've actually got a really cool new 525 00:24:30,422 --> 00:24:32,910 nutrition calculator to take the stress out of 526 00:24:32,942 --> 00:24:35,510 calculating your endurance fueling strategies. 527 00:24:35,702 --> 00:24:38,614 You can create a personalised nutrition plan tailored to your 528 00:24:38,654 --> 00:24:41,590 sport, distance, predicted time, and then build your 529 00:24:41,622 --> 00:24:44,302 nutrition list by adding products to match the plan. 530 00:24:44,438 --> 00:24:47,342 So it'll give you targets like pre run carbs, on the 531 00:24:47,358 --> 00:24:49,878 run carbs, post run carbs, protein, 532 00:24:49,926 --> 00:24:52,918 etcetera and you just drag and drop. Or you kind 533 00:24:52,926 --> 00:24:55,858 of search for the products that you know you like. Or 534 00:24:55,906 --> 00:24:58,802 you can have a look and search through their list of products and it will give you 535 00:24:58,818 --> 00:25:01,594 some suggestions. So definitely give that a go. 536 00:25:01,714 --> 00:25:04,626 Give it a try. Use code cookeatrunjuly ten to 537 00:25:04,650 --> 00:25:07,594 save on your list. Thank you so much for listening to today's 538 00:25:07,634 --> 00:25:10,546 episode. Please don't forget to subscribe and like leave a 539 00:25:10,570 --> 00:25:13,530 rating and review. Share the episode if you enjoyed it. Thanks 540 00:25:13,562 --> 00:25:16,514 so much to Nicola for coming on and chatting with 541 00:25:16,554 --> 00:25:19,492 me and so much luck with her book. You can can 542 00:25:19,508 --> 00:25:22,310 get it at all good bookshops from the 18th of, July. 543 00:25:22,422 --> 00:25:25,134 It's called how not to eat ultra 544 00:25:25,174 --> 00:25:27,990 processed food. So definitely give that a look up and 545 00:25:28,062 --> 00:25:29,614 see how you get on. Let me know what you think.