we're thinking of a certain set of sort of preset topics which are good.
Those are all great topics, They’re all biblical.
And yet if that's
the only kind of theology we think about, there's like these major themes
that are actually hugely important to the theology of the Bible,
that we then will kind of ignore.
Right? Because they're more story themes.
And we tend to we're looking at more like abstract theological themes.
Right.
But in the in the world of the Bible, those things can't be separated
because most of the Bible's theology comes through its stories.
Paul Lamicela,
thank you so much for coming on the Anabaptist Perspectives podcast.
You've been on this podcast before, but it's been a minute. So.
And it hasn't been in person. So this is this is a nice this is nice.
this is great. Yeah.
Because, you're up here at, Faith builders teaching,
a course, and happened to be in the area, so I figured we'd sit down and do this.
you want to take
just a minute, introduce yourself briefly, and we'll just jump right in.
Yeah.
So, I have been teaching,
biblical studies for, several years now.
I have a PhD in biblical theology,
which we'll talk about what that means in a minute.
and, and so I've been my passion is to teach,
and can convey the beauty of how the whole Bible fits together
and how this really reshapes our,
our way of reading Scripture and understanding the Christian life.
So I live in Pennsylvania with my wife,
Laura, and my three and a half month old baby, Giovanni.
so yeah, that's kind of who I am.
Yeah, yeah. Excellent.
So, you teach a lot on. Yeah.
Like you said, the biblical storyline and this concept of biblical theology.
versus systematic or.
I don't know if you want to call it
versus systematic, but however you want to define it?
Can we just start with some definitions? What is that
and why do you believe biblical theology is is important for us today?
Yeah. So and I always
the the term is sort of
deceptive because to in an everyday average usage,
when we say biblical theology, we mean theology that's based on the Bible
as opposed to like unbiblical theology, like good theology versus bad theology,
which is why I never title my classes Introduction to Biblical Theology.
I call it something like, understanding the Bible storyline because nobody knows.
Like that's we don't use the term biblical theology that way.
But in, in, in more academic circles, the, the term biblical
theology means something, has to have kind of a technical, distinct meaning.
And, so for today, I'll unpack that just a tiny bit.
So when we usually think of theology, we're usually thinking of what we call
systematic theology, which is basically, answers to the questions,
traditionally kind of what is the doctrine of God,
the doctrine of man, the doctrine of sin, the doctrine of the church,
and what usually we want when we ask those questions is we're looking
for sort of the conclusion, just a summary.
Like if I took everything in the Bible about this and sort of synthesized it,
maybe put it in a blender or something, what would the end
what would the kind of end statement be? Right?
How would I summarize this and how in a way that sort of
somewhat connects with my own, my own cultural space?
So it's kind of going through the I'm sure this is oversimplifying,
but correct me if I'm wrong, going through the Bible
and basically pulling out the passages that fit with that particular thing
you're trying to the Trinity,
and you find all the relevant passages and kind of build a theology on that.
Or is that oversimplified?
how you get there is, is a is kind of the next step of the question.
But but yes, it involves take basically involves drawing the conclusions.
That's, that's what matters in systematics.
At the end of the day, what are the Bible's conclusions about the Trinity
or about the doctrine of salvation or, or things like that?
Okay. So that's kind of what we're looking for.
We're looking for sort of these propositions that kind of,
that are the conclusions.
And then we take that and figure out at that distillation,
figure out, you know, what do we do with that?
So that's, that's what we would call systematic theology.
Yeah.
And that’s what most of us mean when we call theology.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I was going to say, like, okay, we were talking about this before.
You're doing this interview a couple, a couple nights ago.
And, I was just thinking like,
that's about the only thing I'm familiar with,
you know, when it comes to theology, that, oh, of course, that's just
how you do it.
You know, I got the books on my shelf,
this systematic theology by whoever, you know, and all that, all that stuff.
so this is where I get very interested because I'm always curious about things
like this.
where does biblical or what we're calling biblical theology and again,
probably to clarify with that doesn't mean all the other theologies are unbiblical.
No no no, this is a separate, distinct technical meaning.
So maybe give us maybe a brief definition, but also an example like what is this.
So biblical theology in contrast
is is saying what do what are the the themes
that the biblical authors care about and how do they develop?
So in systematics we care mostly about conclusions, right?
At the end of the day, what does the Bible say and how do I how can I frame it in
in ways that are understandable to me in my culture?
Right.
So often involving a little bit more philosophical language, things like that.
It's a bit more removed from the text, but it draws the conclusions.
Biblical theology.
We say basically, how does this theme develop in the whole story?
It's it's about, yes, conclusions, but more about how you get there to.
So if I so a good example of the difference between biblical
theology and systematics is in systematic theology, if I say,
what is this sort of what is the Bible teach about?
the about salvation?
All right.
I'm going to say, well, you know, there's stuff about justification,
sanctification, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'll explain some of that.
But if I'm asking that from a biblical theology perspective, what I'm going to do
is tell the story of how redemptive history unfolds,
how the how God's sort of redemptive plan of salvation unfolds through history
and the the storyline, the story of the progressive unfolding of that theme
is just as important as whatever conclusions at the end,
because it's it's in it.
We understand the theology of the text
as we see how the story develops in redemptive history.
So that's kind of what biblical theology means in a meta sense.
In a, in a whole Bible, biblical theology, you can also use it in smaller
senses, like what is the theology of Paul?
And in that I'm saying not like, what are the conclusions I can draw,
in a systematic sense, as much as saying,
what are the themes that Paul cares about and how does he unpack those?
Right.
So it's in that way it's almost doing a little mini systematic theology.
Just of Paul. Right. And not bringing to the table.
Here's my list of seven doctrines that I want to find in that
I want to see what Paul says.
It's what, if Paul were to how I said it to my class the other day.
If Paul were to come to faith builders?
because I'm here at Faith Builders right now.
what would and we said, hey, just teach on the things that you think
are the most important. What would his list be?
Ooh, that’s a good question.
Yeah. Right.
And so you end up having some themes that we don't have in
when we sort of do systematics.
Because he'll probably one of his themes might be the theme of suffering.
Right.
Or or of the, of the resurrection or things like that.
And so that's, that's another way, that's a smaller picture way of saying
what biblical theology.
So it's, it's a, it's doing theology in a way that's,
that focuses on the authors of the texts and the world
of the text and the progressive unfolding of redemptive history.
So that's that's some of the distinction.
So to make sure I'm understanding this correctly,
it sounds a lot of what you're saying is fairly story
driven actually like this thread throughout the Bible.
and again
beforehand you were talking about
some of those options of ways you can trace this thread,
and you had mentioned this theme of exile and I, and we didn't
really get into it before filming.
So this is all new for me, and I’d
love to hear you use that as a bit of an example.
How do we follow that that thread, that storyline through, through the Bible?
And this is a good example of ways in which when we think of theology,
we're thinking of a certain set of sort of preset topics which are good.
Those are all great topics, They’re all biblical.
And yet if that's
the only kind of theology we think about, there's like these major themes
that are actually hugely important to the theology of the Bible, i.e.
biblical theology, that we then will kind of ignore.
Right? Because they're more story themes.
And we tend to we're looking at more like abstract theological themes.
Right.
But in the in the world of the Bible, those things can't be separated
because most of the Bible's theology comes through its stories.
Right?
Especially that most of the Bible is story.
Right, the majority of it is. So.
exile is a great example of that.
it's a theme that we don't think much about,
but I think that the New Testament, the whole Bible, is a huge theme,
the whole Bible.
And it's something that the New Testament authors, believe is a
very important theme for what it means to live as a Christian now in our age.
So it's not just a very, you know, a very fascinating
and engaging, you know, theme.
but it's something that is meant to, to shape the way that shape the way we live.
So, so the theme of exile
really starts, and this all of these
themes are so interwoven because stories are, good stories are
very, you know, symbol laden and very interconnected.
and the story, the great story of Scripture,
we're dealing with something that isn't merely
a collection of stories written by human authors, but is is one story
driven in narrative and in history by by the divine author.
So very interwoven.
So but the theme of exile really begins with the Garden of Eden.
Right?
Because and this, this story of the garden
sets the stage for so many of the themes.
but Adam and Eve's judgment.
So Adam and Eve are home right in the garden this is the.
This is the blessed land.
this is the place where God's presence is.
And this is the place where they can have eternal life.
and then in their rebellion,
against God, the judgment really is a judgment of exile, right?
Getting kicked out of the garden, which means getting
kicked out of God's presence and getting sent into the realm of death.
Right? It's those.
It's the loss of those three things, basically, loss of God's presence,
loss of the blessed land and the loss of, the loss of life.
So this the Bible story just sets up with the idea of humanity
through our rebellion against God getting getting exiled
from our true home, the place of blessing, the place of God's presence
and exiled into into, a land of death and evil.
And then, sort of the rest of the Bible story
is a is a is a story of getting back into Eden.
Right. That's that's kind of what the whole story is.
And so you see these like, little ways, that God is
God is working
to undo the, the exile of, of the,
of Genesis three, which drives the story all the way to the end.
But we have so Abraham.
Right, is the next kind of place in this where God promises
him a land and he promises him descendants and he promises him blessing.
These are kind of the three promises of Genesis one and two.
and yet for most of his life, he's wandering around as an exile.
Yeah.
waiting for that day right?
And then his people, his descendants end up getting sent to getting,
you know, end up in Egypt, in exile, essentially.
So for so many years, God's people have the promise of getting back
to, not fully Eden, but a blessed land under God's with God's presence.
And yet they're living in bondage and oppression and slavery
and in wandering around in a land that isn't that isn't home.
Right?
So it's exile, not because of their sin, but it's it's still,
they’re waiting for God's redemption. Right.
and then the flip.
So the flip side of the exile motif is the Exodus,
because the Exodus story is the restoration from exile.
So exile and Exodus are sort of
intricately connected to each other in the story of the Bible.
And so what happens in the,
in the Exodus story is that God's people are
are brought out through through redemption, through mighty acts
of salvation, out of exile, and toward this, this place of belonging and home.
So those are sort of the precursors.
But then really, when we think of exile, we're thinking of,
Israel's exile in Babylon.
Yeah.
And then so this, so this, this just kind of
you basically took us through the majority of the, the Old Testament right there.
Not yet, but yeah.
I mean, but you know what I mean?
Like, you're starting in, you know, with Eden all the way through,
you know, say the Babylonian exile.
that is a very interesting way.
Whereas I think,
for myself and other people and whatever that I've talked
to, you know, we tend to, to more slices like what does, read this book.
And that's kind of like what it's saying,
but not tracking that, that, that theme the whole way through.
And I was actually talking to one of your students here recently.
And he was just saying how powerful this concept has been for himself,
seeing that story going all the way through the Bible and how, affirming
that is of how intricate and beautiful and interwoven all of Scripture is,
you know, the whole thing. And it's like, this couldn't have just happened.
This is this is really powerful and beautiful.
Yeah, because Scripture is not only true and good, but it's also beautiful.
And this is part of how that how that manifests.
And it's so important.
One of the reasons you can't be
just looked at in isolation like books at a time or whatever
is that each of these stories are built on the previous ones.
Right?
So you're in in Abraham, you're supposed to see
echoes of the Genesis story, right?
You can't understand why in the world
God is calling this one family and giving him these promises.
If you don't understand Genesis, you know, one to three,
because this is the first steps of the reversal of, of exile.
And then and likewise, we'll keep seeing that as we go on.
But, so, I mean, this takes us to sort of,
the covenant with Moses and Israel.
And what is central to that covenant is, okay, you've been released
from Exodus a from some from Egypt, from slavery to Egypt.
Now, here are the conditions of the covenant.
And if you are faithful and loyal to Yahweh, your Redeemer and your husband.
So this is where this all gets tied to the marriage and unfaithfulness
theme, which is another big theme, in in the story,
which we can't talk about today.
But, if you're faithful, then you have you will be blessed in the land.
You will be the one land that has God's presence in your midst.
Right?
the land itself will be blessed.
Your descendants will be blessed.
This is this is as close to Eden as you can get, right?
God's land, God's blessing, God's presence.
But then the flip side is that if you are unfaithful,
if you if you walk in rebellion, essentially what's going to happen?
The curses of the covenant as iterated
in, say, Deuteronomy is, is basically you're going to get de Exodused.
oh. Wow.
Okay. I've not thought of that before. That's fascinating.
it's very fascinating.
So it's explicit, in Deuteronomy, it's very interesting how it's very interesting
how the, some of the curses are spoken of,
at the very end in Deuteronomy 28.
So there's this whole iteration of the blessings and curses of the covenant.
And then Yahweh says, if you do not,
keep the covenant, if you are unfaithful, blah, blah, blah,
then Yahweh will scatter you among all the peoples
from one end of the earth to the other.
And there you shall serve other gods.
And among these nations you will find no respite,
and there will be no resting place for the, for the sole of your foot.
But, your life will hang in doubt before you in the morning.
You'll say, I wish it were evening.
In the evening you’ll say, I wish it were morning,
you’ll just be kind of freaked out, terrified all the time.
And then it ends with Yahweh will bring you back in ships to Egypt.
A journey that I promise that you should never make again.
And there you shall offer yourselves
for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves.
But there will be no buyer.
And this isn't meant to be a literal.
You will literally go back to Exodus, but it's taking the
the sort of slavery back to Egypt.
But it's taking the Slavery in Egypt story.
Yeah, which was their redemption story and saying that's you’re going to be
de Exodused.
But even with the plot twist,
because you’ll go back
to slavery in Egypt, so to speak, but nobody's even going to buy
you as slaves, right?
You'll be so worthless that you'll be really stranded.
I've never noticed that when I've read that passage.
That is fascinating. very fascinating.
So then, of course, this is what winds up playing out in Israel's history.
They're unfaithful.
And then their story just crashes and burns.
Right in exile.
They they lose the kingship and, they're they're carted off
and they, they're exiled again into out of the sort of Eden
the closest thing to Eden you can get.
and sent into
a world of God's judgment, a world of oppression by other,
other, other nations
and away from away from home.
And so that that is looming
so large in especially the time of around the first century of Jesus,
because God had brought them
back from exile, kind of ish.
So there's this sense that they were sort of released from exile,
in the, in the Persian period.
And yet there was also the sense that exile was still continuing,
because part of the promises of return
from exile in the prophets and we’re skipping over so much.
But the prophets see a day which is all based off of Deuteronomy 30.
because Moses says, you guys will go into exile
because you're very stubborn and I just know.
And but then,
but then God and the other side of exile, God will bring you back and eventually
circumcise your hearts and bless you again.
So the prophets say, look, God will visit his people and bring them back.
But when he does so, that means also he's going to send the Messiah.
He's going to, to be the true king, to restore them, restore
the land, bring about new creation, forgiveness of sins, all that stuff.
And that stuff hadn't happened.
So yeah, there was a new temple.
That was second temple that was built.
It was like kind of kind of so-so.
And they were still under the thumb of various rulers,
through this whole period.
By the first century, it was the Romans, they weren't really returned from exile.
Yeah.
Does does, the destruction of the temple again
by the Romans and, and the exile again come into this story at all,
or is that just.
Well, it kind of it kind of does.
so what I should say is that what what is what Israel was looking for
because of its exile, right?
In its exile.
What the prophets said would happen is guess what?
The flip side, a new exodus.
Yeah, right.
So, okay, this is all built on the story so far, right?
they're slavery in Egypt.
God led them out in Exodus.
And so the exile to Babylon or whatever the prophets
say, there's going to be a new Exodus.
And they use this incredible imagery from the first Exodus.
They speak of God, they speak of God bringing back the people.
There's 1 or 2 passages in Isaiah.
Yeah, I've never thought of that before.
As as what Isaiah is saying is, is essentially he's describing.
Yeah.
Like you're, you're, you're basically calling a new exodus or like another.
Wow. Okay.
Yeah. Okay. This is I see what you're saying.
I've just I hadn't thought of it in those terms before.
and the thing is,
part of the reason this is important is that the New Testament authors,
Paul Jesus isn't an author, but the New Testament characters.
Peter we'll get to later.
But basically, I mean, Paul says when he's with before Agrippa, I think
he's like, look, all I all
I do all I'm preaching is what Moses and the prophets said would happen,
that Messiah would suffer and that rising from the dead,
he would be the first to he would, you know, bring light
both to our people and Gentiles or whatever.
He Paul thinks that his whole message is just saying, oh,
the vision of the prophets has come to fulfillment.
Right?
And so he's absolutely steeped in these stories, and we miss a lot of Paul
even, or the New Testament when we miss this.
So and that comes back to this whole concept of
biblical theology, but the storyline through Scripture to where you're saying
it, Paul, makes so much more sense when you also are tracing the thread
through the Old Testament prophets.
Because that’s all he’s doing. that's all the Gospels.
The Gospels are full of this.
We'll get
and you and but often the New Testament text,
they're like good stories, not dumb ones where the bad stories, the difference
between good and bad stories, partly, bad stories have no plot, but also,
bad stories often they, they’re too they’re too preachy, right.
They explain everything to you, right?
They're like, yeah, this means that. And you're like, I don't care.
Like, well, it's just annoying, right?
Don't tell me that. Just tell me, just show me it.
And don't don't be like, pedantic about it.
Oh, that's a really good point.
Yeah, yeah.
And and the Bible is often is told as, usually as a good story.
it is it's always a good story.
But they, it assumes it's often doesn't, doesn't explicitly say hi.
This is a reference back to this.
It just assumes that, you know. Yeah.
Right. That's a such a good point.
Whereas back to like systematic theology say or you know,
and you're going through your list of doctrines of this or reading
only this book, I, I can see the difference.
This is starting to make a lot of sense
So look at here's one example from Isaiah 52.
So how beautiful on the mountains are the feet of him who brings the good news.
Okay.
And this is very where we know this passage very well.
Right.
And this, this one passage and two or so others.
really is the background for the
what the word gospel means in the gospel, in the New Testament.
This is the origin of that.
So that phrase, good news is, is where Jesus gets when he says,
when the authors of the gospel say, Jesus went around
proclaiming the good news, it's a it's a link back to Isaiah.
So this is this is here.
So beautiful.
In the mountains are the feet of him who bring good news,
who proclaim peace, who bring good news of happiness,
proclaim salvation, who says to Zion, Your God reigns.
Now what that does not mean is, Hey, God is King of the world.
No, we know this because the next verse, the voice of your watchman,
they lift up their voice.
So these are this is figuratively looking kind of portraying
city watchman of, of Israel or Jerusalem looking out.
And the watchmen are like they lift up their voice and they sing for joy. Why?
Because they see the return of Yahweh to Zion.
So when it says, Your God reigns, what it means is God is coming back,
after exile, he's abandoned us because we've abandoned him.
But he's he's coming back.
And that's the good news, that God is coming back to do what?
Well, that's what it says next.
Break forth into singing.
You waste places of Jerusalem because Yahweh has comforted his people.
He has redeemed Jerusalem.
He has bared his holy arm before the eyes of the nations,
and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
He's bared his holy arm.
This is.
You can maybe catch a hint of Exodus here, right?
The God’s mighty arm of salvation.
But it gets explicit in the next verse.
Depart.
Go out from there. Touch no unclean thing.
Go out from the midst of her.
Purify yourselves, you who bear the vessels of Yahweh.
For you shall not go out in haste,
and you shall not go out in flight.
Well, where does that language come from?
Well it’s a direct reference to the exodus,
where the people were told at the pass at the Passover night.
Right. Eat this quickly.
Have your cell phone fully charged, your keys in your pocket,
because you're going to have to go out in haste. Right? Right.
And but this exodus, this is going to be the new, greater exodus,
which will maybe take more time, but will also be more complete, right?
For Yahweh will go before you, and the God of Israel will be your rear guard.
Like, what is that?
Wow. It's it's the it's the pillar of fire and the pillar of cloud
going before and behind the people.
So in this with this imagery, Isaiah is, is is speaking of God's
act, of great act of salvation that he's about to do
when he returns to his people as the new Exodus.
there's other passages where Yahweh
where sorry, Isaiah talks about God's return as a, bringing back
the exiles who were scattered over a whole ton of nations this time
he talks about drying up the channels, the rivers, the seven rivers or whatever,
and bringing the people back in sandals right over on dry ground.
Oh, right.
Which is which is sort of crossing the Red sea imagery and yet expanded
because now the the people are exiled to many nations and god’s.
This is this imagery saying, look, I'm
about to bring the people back from wherever they are using new Exodus
language again.
So return from exile is spoken of as new Exodus.
yeah.
This a lot of this is new stuff like these are passages that I've obviously,
you know, I've read that or I've heard that before,
but but like actually again, basically what you just to reiterate you're, you're
tracing that thread through, you know, through through the Bible not through.
Just like we're going to look at just one little passage or we're not
it seems like this, this methodology, biblical theology,
isn't as much fixated on terms and definitions.
And, you know, am I am I reading that right?
It feels like systematic theology is all about what is this term?
And then we're going to study that
this is very story driven from what you're showing.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's very it's very oriented around motifs images and stories.
Yeah.
Because that's what the biblical authors are doing.
Right.
The biblical authors spend way less time on technical terms.
Which technical terms are great?
Look, I've got a you know, I've, I have a PhD.
So I'm all into technical terms in their, in their place.
But the biblical authors are way
less into technical terms and way more into
to in in a sense their version of technical terms.
Are these little images from that link back to previous stories?
That's fascinating. Yeah, Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense.
So when you actually say it, I'm over here being like,
oh yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
But like,
I have to think that like it doesn't, I don't naturally
think of the Bible that way.
I think it's because maybe we're just so used to seeing
it like, here's a list of definitions and here's the verses
where they're brought out, you know.
yeah, A lot of it's our Western, you know, so
most of most of the world is more story based, story driven.
Right.
And and the Bible was written in the,
in those cultures, not in, not in modern Western culture.
That's a great point!
You know, the Bible is actually built
to connect with most of the world more than it is with us.
Right.
So anyway, I should get to a couple of things in the New Testament
because so so it sets up for I love how Matthew's gospel opens.
Right?
Because Matthew's gospel opens by taking that whole story and saying, guess what?
The fulfillment of this exile is about to be,
to be ended and new Exodus is beginning.
So Matthew starts with the genealogy of Jesus,
which most people think is super boring, but it's actually very interesting.
surprise, because Matthew, Matthew, deliberately
breaks it up into three groups of 14 generations, somewhat artificial.
he's leaving some things out and stuff like that
to get because he wants the number 14 in all three.
And what’s, I won't go into all that, but what's fascinating is
these three sections are explicitly built around,
the David, the Davidic, kingship.
So it starts with Abraham, the one who got the promises.
And then the first section ends with the rise of David the King,
and then, and well, actually, I mean,
he makes this explicit in verse 17, the generations, from Abraham to David.
14 so that's the first section, and then David to the exile,
the deportation to Babylon, 14.
So the David to the loss of the Davidic kingship and the
people going into exile.
And then the next three is the deportation at Babylon, the exile to the Messiah.
14 so just by structuring it that way, you're meant to say,
here comes the new David to bring back the people from exile.
And then Jesus birth narrative is basically a recapitulation of, well,
the first four chapters are recapitulation of the Exile and Exodus story.
So Jesus is born, and Herod functions
in this in the way the story is told as Pharaoh figure.
Right?
Who, decrees the the the killing of the baby boys.
Whoa. Okay, okay. Yeah.
I don't know if I've ever thought of that.
that's that's that makes so much sense, though.
And then Jesus gets sent to Egypt, right?
And then he comes back from Egypt.
Now we're starting now he's, like, functioning as Israel, right?
He comes back from Egypt.
and then the next thing in the story basically is he ends up in the Jordan River,
right?
Yeah. Wow. Right, right.
Fulfilling the story of Israel.
And then after that, he's in the wilderness for 40 days being tempted,
which is
his recapitulation of Israel's being tempted in the desert for 40 years.
Right. But he succeeds where they fail.
And then next thing is the sermon on the Mount,
where he goes up to a mountain and gives his new
sort of what a Torah written on the heart would look like.
Right?
So it's the story of Israel, of exile and return.
And then Matthew's gospel ends
with Jesus celebrating a Passover feast.
Right.
because what he's doing is he's speaking of the death
he's about to die in terms of, exile and exodus.
So he's he's situating his death in light of
the new Exodus, because Passover is embedded in the new in the in the Exodus.
And then he dies.
He dies, really as, as Hebrews will say outside
the camp, bearing our sins, he dies as somebody who's cursed
with the curses of the covenant outside of the city.
Right.
the death of a cursed person, basically taking the scapegoat
imagery of the Old Testament, cutting off from the people.
Exiled, right away from God, banished from the people,
banished from God's presence, banished from God's land.
And and the New Testament sees in that
Jesus taking the exile of his people
so that his people can take his, his blessings and and life.
That is something.
And you're using this all.
This is just an example.
Yeah. This is one is is one example.
We could do this all day with all sorts of others.
All kinds of stories, themes.
Well, in this whole. Yeah. Wow.
The concept of the of this storyline in, in in scripture, like,
yeah, I'm going to have to I'm gonna have to think about that because
I can, I can I'm very much seeing how this could be very applicable
in a lot of different ways.
You know, it just in general, like how we read.
Yeah, how we read stuff.
You know, it's not I'm not you're not reading a chapter in isolation,
you know, not not reading a book even in isolation.
Because these things connect all across the thread.
And I think that's the key.
That's one of the key things is when you start
realizing there’s connections everywhere, you start looking for them
and then you see them.
That's kind of the one big thing that that we, that people just.
Yeah.
It's not a quick you can't just be like,
how do I know everything I need to know about this?
It's more like,
you need to just change your perspective on what you expect from the text.
And once you see, once you realize, oh, this is how the Bible works,
then you see it everywhere and you can't unsee it.
But it would also it feels like this, this methodology
again, biblical theology or whatever.
You know, this framework you're presenting, would by its very nature mean
you're reading a much more across the whole sweep of Scripture.
You know, you there's which gets me excited
because like the whole of Scripture is being involved because honestly, like
so many people, I, myself included, only read in certain parts of the Bible.
And then it's like the Torah, you know, we just don't really read, I mean, well,
maybe a little bit in Genesis, but most of that is kind of,
you know, but then you look at, oh, like, I don't know, Jesus, you know, quoting
Deuteronomy a bunch and you're like, wait a second.
There's probably stuff back there I should know,
but it's kind of hard to know what what do I read.
What you're describing is is bringing that into
as part of the essential process of reading and understanding Scripture.
And I think that's fantastic. Wow. Yeah.
This this this is interesting.
So let me just go to first Peter.
because what's what Peter is doing is Peter,
and the rest of the New Testament authors are seeing that, yes, this
new exodus has kicked off in Jesus, and yet it hasn't done.
It's not done yet
because we're not back at the blessed land, which is for them, new creation,
the new heavens, new earth.
and so that
means that what it means to be a Christian right now, at this time,
the whole span of between Jesus first and second coming,
is that we’re Christians, We’re people who, yes, have been Passovered.
Right.
We've we've we've experienced the beginnings of Exodus and yet we're exiles.
And so the whole story, all the stories of Israel's exile,
the story of Daniel, the story of Jeremiah and his letters, the all that stuff
speaks to the moment that we're living in as Christians.
We're exiles.
And Peter, Peter's letter is framed around that.
So what's fascinating is that, 1st Peter, most scholars agree that
1st Peter is written primarily to a Gentile or Gentile Christian audience.
Okay.
But he kicks off the letter by saying, Peter, an apostle of Messiah Jesus,
to those who are the chosen exiles of the dispersion.
So and this is not a throwaway phrase.
Oh, that's.
Yeah, yeah, that's so funny how I've read that and just not just you.
It's so, it's just part of the greetings in the letter.
You just kind of read right through it, you know.
He’s meaning to tell his people
because Peter's all about suffering that will be followed by glory.
And it's all about framing.
This is what it means to live and suffer as a Christian.
in light of you're in exile, waiting for the final redemption.
So then he'll say, according to God's mercy has caused us to be born again
through, the resurrection of Jesus to an inheritance that is kept in heaven,
waiting for us to be revealed at the last time, that final salvation.
Speaking of of the inheritance. The inheritance of what?
The promised land, right?
The new heavens and new earth.
And then he says, so,
how are you supposed to how are you supposed to act? Do not,
as obedient children, don't be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,
your former gentile, you know, sinful way of life.
But as the one who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
since it is written, you shall be holy, for I am holy.
And this is taking Exodus language, the language of God's
relationship to his people, and saying, You're God's holy people.
And so.
if you call on him as father, who judges impartially according to each one's
deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,
because you know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited
from your forefathers,
not with perishable things such as gold and silver, but with the
the blood of the precious blood of Christ.
So no, remember that God has exodused
you from sin, and in light of that,
live the rest of your life as exiles,
so as people who, yes, are here in the world,
but who don't belong here and are waiting for,
for your true, your true home.
And so put away all malice and deceit and hypocrisy.
As sojourners and exiles in chapter two,
abstain from the passions of your flesh which wage war against your soul. Why?
Because you're in your exiles, right?
Keep your conduct
among the Gentiles honorable,
so that when they speak evil against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds
and glorify God on the day of visitation.
Whoa!
So, so live as people who are exiles in the surrounding world,
not letting the world,
make you think that you're home and just sort of succumbing to it,
but also caring about what everyone else, how how you witness to
who you really are caring about that the Gentiles, which is really interesting.
He's calling the non-Christians Gentiles,
even though he's writing to ethnic Gentiles.
Right. Why? Why?
Because in the previous verse he says, you are a chosen race,
a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession,
which is straight up Exodus 19 Oh yeah, okay, that starts making sense.
That's a very, very good point. He’s taking Exodus
language and, and language of God's relationship with Israel.
And he's saying, this is your story now.
That whole story.
Yeah. Yes.
You're you're you're you're ethnic Gentiles, whatever.
But no, you are that that story is yours.
And and so you live,
he says once you were not a people, but now you are God's people.
Look, you're God's people now. The Exodus story is yours.
And so the exile story is yours, too.
So walk around as God's kingdom of priests, as Israel was supposed to do.
and wait
your time in exile, not caving to the pressures of sin, but
waiting for, the Gentiles to eventually glorify God on the day of visitation.
What's fascinating about that word
visitation is it's basically the same words that form
roughly the same word, that is used in Exodus for when,
when, Moses goes to the people and, and delivers to them.
Hey, God is
God is here to to redeem you.
And they recognize...
They rejoice because God has visited them.
or at in Exodus also when Moses
takes, takes the bones of Joseph
and the in the Exodus he carts Joseph’s bones,
the text says, Joseph made them swear.
He Joseph said, God will visit you.
And when he does take my bones.
So that language of in in first Peter of wait
for the day of visitation is saying live in exile.
As people who suffer, people who are good
bear God's name well to the Gentiles
who don't make Egypt your home
right, and wait for God's visitation.
Double click the new exodus that you're that you're, you know, waiting for.
And then this this is why he speaks so much about slaves
be subject to your masters, wives be submissive to your husbands.
Particularly, I think, somewhat not.
Not entirely, but somewhat.
He's talking, about non-Christian husbands.
And in this case, he talks about,
he talks about suffering since the Messiah suffered in the flesh.
Arm yourself with the same way of thinking.
he says,
don't be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you,
but rejoice in that you are sharing in the Messiah's suffering.
And then he says
that, he and all of us,
by implication, are sharers in the sufferings of Messiah
as well as a partaker of in the glory that is to be revealed in the future.
So it's all framed around the idea that this motif of exile
and then the expectation of full,
full, the full realization of Exodus that has started,
drives what it means to live as a Christian
in our world, in our society,
right as we wait for the conclusion of the exile
theme is Genesis, revelation 21 and 22.
When God's people
are brought to the new heavens, new earth, and there's rest and peace,
and it's a restoration of Eden, God's presence is fully there, right?
So that ultimate, you know, undoing of exile.
Wow. So I mean, that's that's fascinating.
I keep going when I, when I get started on these themes.
okay, so you just outlined some very fascinating things that that was great.
that that thread, the storyline through scripture, however,
at least in my own personal experience
and so I don't know how much the the data is on this,
but it seems like our, our anabaptist people and just in general, maybe other
American church, however you want to say it tends to do the systematic
theology thing more like what you just outlined, is not something
I've heard people use that approach very often.
I mean, you know, even in, even in, like, Bible college and,
you know, Bible schools and I don't know, wherever sermons.
why is that? That's a good question.
I'm not totally sure.
It's, I think it's sort of an in some ways an accident of history
in our culture that for various
reasons, over the last couple hundred years, maybe a few hundred years,
especially maybe post maybe Post-enlightenment especially.
I'm not sure, that we like abstracted.
we're. Yeah.
I think some of it really is is is the the way that
back in the 1700s kind of eventually theology
and biblical theology got kind of separated
and and for some reason we tend to like
and think is more applicable and relevant.
tangible, just abstract
sentences that I know what to do with or something.
and we tend to think of the story
as being some kind of,
kind of unnecessary conveyor or like carrier of the meaning,
which is the meaning is what I abstract out of it rather than,
no the meaning is the story itself, and you can't abstract the meaning.
I so I don't know, I'm it's it's changing.
now, there's certainly the rise, you know, of
the increase in popularity of biblical theology.
is definitely really encouraging, but it hasn't taken root everywhere yet.
it's kind of, maybe it's a bit of a fascination
with trying to nail down definitions and like, that kind of thing.
Is that have anything to do with it?
I yeah.
And I think it's just become so it's just become
part of our own expectations
now for generations that when I, when I look at the Bible and I do theology,
I kind of expect to see I'm looking for a list of
of definitions to abstract nouns, you know, which I'm all for.
But but that I don't know.
I'm not really sure.
I would say it's because we tend to root ourselves in the epistles, but even that
I don't think that's the right answer honestly, because I think the
I mean, I’ve taught Galations you know, a number of times.
And one of the things this past time that I think
was surprising to to students was the way
that Paul himself is such a story based.
He's a biblical theologian, right?
We tend to think of him as a guy with all the abstract nouns.
But no, he's he's just doing he's just doing biblical theology.
Oh, interesting.
Oh, man, that feels like that could be a whole
nother episode right there, because I would.
I would love to see how that works because he's like, lifted up almost as as that.
Yeah. The the definitions.
And the, all these convoluted words and, and abstractions and and so forth.
but that's interesting.
I feel like you're hinting at something there that'd be worth diving into.
You know, I'm like a huge fan of Paul and I am a huge fan of some of those
big words.
I think that like defining justification is important and things like that.
But most of what Paul's doing is, is looking at the story
of the Old Testament in light of Jesus and the outpouring of the spirit.
And that's the that's it's theology is the intersection of those things.
Yeah, that's that's fascinating.
That's important.
So with that being the case.
And so if somebody is listening or watching this
and they're saying, wow, this is fascinating.
how can they apply this in their own lives,
whether it's just personal Bible study, or maybe they're
preparing a devotional to share at church or prepping a Sunday school lesson.
what are some really simple, practical tips?
Because even as you're sharing this, I'm like, this is amazing, but,
how do I do this myself?
You know, what are some simple tools and things we can use?
Well, honestly,
the solutions are not microwave ready, right?
So part of, Okay, so one, I mean, probably the biggest thing that I,
that I mentioned before was just by, by exposure,
one comes to, to change one's expectations.
One tends to come to the text
expecting a whole ton of connections to everywhere else in the Bible.
and one starts reading the Bible expecting any passage to say to,
first of all, reading it in in its immediate context,
but then reading it in light of everything that's come before it in
redemptive history and everything that comes after it in redemptive history.
But, honestly, one of the biggest, one of the biggest things then
is you just you you have to become like, as familiar as you can with the Bible.
So with that expectation, I think it's both right.
You have to have that expectation, that these this is all interconnected.
But then you just got to read right a lot, over and it just takes years.
Right?
All of us are still, are still learning and seeing because that's what
that's what the prophets did.
Right?
That's why they're that's why they're literature
is so steeped in earlier scriptures that that's what they're saturated in.
That's what Paul that's the reason Paul is and and and Matthew and Luke
and John is because they were so steeped in the Old Testament.
Right. And there's really not much of a shortcut.
There are good resources you can use that can help you get started.
there's lots of great stuff out there now.
especially in the last ten years or 15 years.
but at the end of the day,
it's a lot of it's, you know, keep reading, keep reading and expect
that some of the places in the Bible where that you thought were less
relevant are actually kind of relevant because they're going to provide,
pieces of the story and pieces
of the symbolism that that later scripture is going to pick up.
So it's it's this, this idea of
just reading the whole scope of Scripture would be a decent place to start.
Then for like, just like immerse yourself in this,
like you're saying they were saturated with it. Yeah.
And so.
Well, remember, I mean, they didn't have like Bible Gateway or logos or whatever.
And so when Paul is reading the Bible,
it's, he's, it's, it's whatever he has in his mind of the rest of the Bible.
That's how he recalls connections, right?
He's reading Isaiah and he's like, wait, wait, wait, wait.
yeah. This passage. Right.
And so the the more passages you have in your head, the more stuff is going to like
kind of the connections you can make in your head when you're reading
any one passage is like, wait, that reminds me of this, this and this.
Right. yeah.
I mean, there's yeah, there's so many there's so many examples.
I mean, I teach, I teach like extensively on this kind of thing.
So you can't, can't boil it all down.
But yeah.
So the three things I would say is, one just expect
that the Bible is a unified story, that, that,
that is all interconnected.
Second, be as familiar with as many parts of the of the text as you can.
And then third,
there are great resources out there, that can help you get started.
Yeah.
And then biblical theology is not is also meant to inform systematics.
So what, at the very beginning of this episode, we
we said how systematics emphasizes conclusions.
But still how do you get there?
Bad systematics is basically cherry picking a bunch of like, proof texts?
Yeah.
Good system, good systematic theology takes biblical theology,
starts with biblical theology and understands it pretty deeply
and then says, okay, based on the way this theme kind of works out
these interconnected themes.
Now, what synthesis and conclusions can we draw, and how can we maybe use
different language, language
that maybe connects with our culture more philosophical or whatever,
to kind of to kind of convey those conclusions?
So that's kind of the difference between good and bad systematics.
So it's still either,
you know, either way you're kind of reliant on biblical theology.
Yeah
And maybe some of your listeners will say, well,
this seems kind of impractical and, and,
and whatever, but I, I would beg to differ.
I think that, I think the New Testament, is so steeped in this stuff.
And like I showed in first Peter, the story is
it is meant to change the way we live.
And so I think the one last thing I'll say is with biblical theology,
when we think about application,
we need to just expand what we mean by application.
We like, I think, with the story based nature of the Bible.
application is not just here's a very specific thing
I can do next Tuesday, but it is how do I reshape?
How does the stories
and how does the big story of the Bible, reshape the way I view my life?
Right.
So yes, it's I need to suffer well, suffer injustice
well love my enemies, whatever.
But it's also I need, as first Peter would say,
you need to think of yourself through the lens of the story of exile.
Right?
that seems like
nebulous, but that's what that's what the text calls us to
do, is to change the way we see ourselves in the world through these stories.
And that process takes a long time.
But that's application. Wow.
That seems like a process worth doing. Yeah.
Wow, thank you so much for sharing.
I appreciate you coming on, Paul.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this episode with Paul Lamicela.
If you found this interesting, one of the topics he mentioned
was his teaching on the book of Galatians, and we'd actually interviewed him
about that topic.
And you can find that episode linked in the description down below.
Thanks again for watching and for your support of this podcast.
You can find all our content over on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org.
how do we read the Bible as a unified story
instead of in disjointed fragments in this episode,
we cover the topic of the storyline throughout the whole of Scripture,
and Paul will give us tools on how to do that.
Yeah.
So, how are we looking, Jeremy?
Basically, throw this up and then.
Ow ow ow ow ow. Here we go.
Did you get a good down there?
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Not yet.
Oh, I said, well, no, I think he should get AJ.
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I mean, yeah, if we do this, that and try to write about clickbait.
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