1
00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,160
Mia Hobbs: Hello, and welcome
back to series two of the Why I

2
00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,880
Knit podcast. My name is Dr. Mia
Hobbs and I'm a clinical

3
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,820
psychologist who's passionate
about knitting and its benefits

4
00:00:11,820 --> 00:00:15,510
for our mental wellbeing. Each
episode I interview a different

5
00:00:15,510 --> 00:00:18,540
knitter about why they knit and
how it benefits their mental

6
00:00:18,540 --> 00:00:22,560
health. This week on the
podcast, I'm joined by Milli

7
00:00:22,590 --> 00:00:27,330
Abrams, who is the owner of
Tribe Yarns, a yarn shop in

8
00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:31,500
Richmond, London. Milli has a
qualification in Applied Colour

9
00:00:31,500 --> 00:00:34,380
Psychology so I particularly
wanted to ask her more about

10
00:00:34,380 --> 00:00:37,050
this and about how colour can
impact on mental health.

11
00:00:37,620 --> 00:00:40,260
Unfortunately, there is a
crackle on Milli's end of the

12
00:00:40,290 --> 00:00:43,410
audio, which we were unable to
resolve while we were recording.

13
00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,710
However, Milli is such an
inspiring and interesting guest

14
00:00:46,710 --> 00:00:48,930
that I'm sure you'll still
really enjoy this interview.

15
00:00:54,390 --> 00:00:56,250
Hi Milli, welcome to the
podcast.

16
00:00:56,780 --> 00:00:57,200
Milli Abrams: Hello.

17
00:00:58,410 --> 00:01:01,020
Mia Hobbs: I always start by
asking where your story with

18
00:01:01,020 --> 00:01:01,860
knitting began.

19
00:01:03,250 --> 00:01:06,520
Milli Abrams: Okay, that's a
relatively easy one, I guess. I

20
00:01:06,550 --> 00:01:11,560
was about six or seven years old
when I started knitting. My mum

21
00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,360
used to knit and she introduced
it to me over a summer holiday

22
00:01:17,590 --> 00:01:21,250
and I pretty much got addicted
straightaway. And I was the sort

23
00:01:21,250 --> 00:01:25,900
of child that never really sat
down. You know, I was always a

24
00:01:25,900 --> 00:01:28,930
bit ants-in-my-pants, climbing
trees and that kind of thing.

25
00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:34,600
And so I guess it was as much of
a surprise to her as it was to

26
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,440
me that I loved it. And I got
obsessed and I ended up blowing

27
00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,760
out all of my playdates with
friends outside. I was like,

28
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,910
"No, I'm at home knitting."  I
was determined to get it done.

29
00:01:45,910 --> 00:01:48,070
Mia Hobbs: Oh wow! So you
absolutely went with it straight

30
00:01:48,070 --> 00:01:48,460
away.

31
00:01:48,990 --> 00:01:51,720
Milli Abrams: Yes, straight
away. And to begin with, at

32
00:01:51,750 --> 00:01:55,080
least for the first year, I
don't think I could purl at all.

33
00:01:55,110 --> 00:01:58,800
I could only knit. But I really
liked stocking stitch. So I

34
00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,820
would knit a whole line and then
I'd give it to my mom to purl

35
00:02:02,820 --> 00:02:07,920
back. [Laughs] I did eventually
get the hang of purling but I

36
00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,590
could only do it then for the
next little while standing up at

37
00:02:10,590 --> 00:02:12,810
the ironing board, for some
reason. I was using crappy

38
00:02:12,810 --> 00:02:16,320
straight needles back then. You
know how we had those awful sort

39
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,650
of Aero needles that weighed a
little bit too much, I guess.

40
00:02:19,650 --> 00:02:22,650
For my little hands they were
quite long, with blunt tips. And

41
00:02:22,650 --> 00:02:26,520
I used to knit way too tight,
like really tightly. So I used

42
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,310
to have to use the ironing board
to jam the needle into the

43
00:02:29,310 --> 00:02:29,940
stitch.

44
00:02:29,930 --> 00:02:34,970
Mia Hobbs: Oh wow! Yeah, I
actually had one of the kids in

45
00:02:34,970 --> 00:02:38,030
the therapeutic knitting group
I've been running say to me,

46
00:02:38,330 --> 00:02:40,970
"It's really surprising that
grannies knit because you need

47
00:02:40,970 --> 00:02:45,260
so much strength to get this to
fit!" . And I thought, "I think

48
00:02:45,260 --> 00:02:47,690
someone's going slightly wrong
here, because I don't feel like

49
00:02:47,690 --> 00:02:50,030
I'm using muscles to knit,
particularly!" [Laughs]

50
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,670
Milli Abrams: No! And then back
then (that would have been in

51
00:02:52,670 --> 00:02:57,830
the early 80s) we all knit with
crappy acrylic wools, so it was

52
00:02:57,830 --> 00:02:58,790
really strong.

53
00:02:59,390 --> 00:03:01,520
Mia Hobbs: Oh yeah, it's hard to
break. It's harder than wool.

54
00:03:02,390 --> 00:03:08,210
Milli Abrams: Exactly. If I'd
have started with a proper wool,

55
00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,900
had I been knitting with the
tightness and the strength that

56
00:03:11,900 --> 00:03:14,270
I was applying to that acrylic,
it would have broken right away,

57
00:03:14,270 --> 00:03:17,810
and I would have realised that
it was too tight. But I got away

58
00:03:17,810 --> 00:03:18,500
with it back then.

59
00:03:20,810 --> 00:03:25,070
Mia Hobbs: Okay. And what do you
think hooked you in? Because it

60
00:03:25,070 --> 00:03:27,650
sounds like it was a bit of a
surprise, if you were quite an

61
00:03:27,650 --> 00:03:30,590
active kid, that you could sit
still and knit?

62
00:03:31,890 --> 00:03:36,360
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it was
definitely the challenge of it.

63
00:03:37,140 --> 00:03:40,230
But I did feel it was very
calming, the repetitive

64
00:03:40,230 --> 00:03:43,470
stitches, and there was
something about making and

65
00:03:43,470 --> 00:03:48,630
creating, and then being able to
make your own creative choices.

66
00:03:49,020 --> 00:03:54,390
It was a bit like Lego, where
you could sort of go your own

67
00:03:54,390 --> 00:03:57,300
way with it, and you could spend
hours and hours and hours doing

68
00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:01,440
it and it just felt good. So
yeah, I think it was that, and

69
00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:07,710
then RIGHT away I started
knitting colourwork and intarsia

70
00:04:07,710 --> 00:04:10,470
and that kind of thing, because
that was very early 80s.

71
00:04:12,850 --> 00:04:13,900
Mia Hobbs: That's what I
wondered: whether you were

72
00:04:13,900 --> 00:04:16,270
knitting from patterns or
whether you were just kind of

73
00:04:17,470 --> 00:04:18,400
knitting scarves.

74
00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,420
Milli Abrams: Both. No, I never
did scarves in the beginning. I

75
00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:27,310
just did lots of patches of
things. And then I made stuff

76
00:04:27,310 --> 00:04:29,230
for dolls, you know, just little
things.

77
00:04:31,330 --> 00:04:33,670
Mia Hobbs: Did you kind of make
those up as you went along

78
00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:35,230
rather than finding a pattern
for them?

79
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,518
Milli Abrams: A little bit,
yeah. So I might have had a

80
00:04:35,270 --> 00:05:46,430
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. I guess a
lot of us learn a lot of how to

81
00:04:37,579 --> 00:04:41,326
pattern that had a chart for
some sort of fair isle motif and

82
00:04:41,388 --> 00:04:45,073
I would have just used that to
make some random little thing

83
00:04:45,135 --> 00:04:48,575
for a doll or a teddy bear
jumper or something. I didn't

84
00:04:48,636 --> 00:04:52,014
play with teddy bears or
anything back then, but I just

85
00:04:52,076 --> 00:04:55,761
wanted to make little things.
And I don't think I had enough

86
00:04:55,823 --> 00:04:59,570
yarn to make a big sweater. Then
eventually my mum took me to

87
00:04:59,631 --> 00:05:03,133
John Lewis and we picked out a
pattern,  and that was the

88
00:05:03,194 --> 00:05:06,511
patchwork intarsia and fair isle
cardigan. It was very

89
00:05:06,572 --> 00:05:10,504
complicated. But I decided I was
going to make that. And then by

90
00:05:10,565 --> 00:05:14,189
the time I'd finished it, I
could barely get it on. Because

91
00:05:14,251 --> 00:05:17,875
I was such a tight knitter, it
was so small. [Laughs] And I

92
00:05:17,936 --> 00:05:21,683
hadn't appreciated that you had
to leave a long enough end to

93
00:05:21,745 --> 00:05:25,000
darn the ends in. So they'd
started to pull out, so I

94
00:05:25,062 --> 00:05:28,931
superglued them down, which made
it really jabby inside. It was

95
00:05:28,993 --> 00:05:32,740
terrible! It's a horrible little
thing. But my mum never knit

96
00:05:32,801 --> 00:05:36,610
intarsia or colourwork. She just
used to do plain knitting and

97
00:05:36,671 --> 00:05:40,050
maybe a few cables. So she
couldn't really advise me on

98
00:05:40,111 --> 00:05:42,200
that. That was a learning process!

99
00:05:46,430 --> 00:05:48,770
solve problems in knitting
through trial and error.

100
00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,750
Milli Abrams: Yeah, and back
then there wasn't any social

101
00:05:51,750 --> 00:05:54,240
media or any pressure like that.
It's not as though we were

102
00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,210
comparing ourselves to each
other. And no-one I knew knit.

103
00:05:57,210 --> 00:06:01,080
So it was perfectly fine for me
to keep making all these

104
00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,810
mistakes and not feel like a
total failure. It was just

105
00:06:03,810 --> 00:06:04,140
learning.

106
00:06:04,530 --> 00:06:08,220
Mia Hobbs: But I think also now,
if you knew what the mistake was

107
00:06:08,220 --> 00:06:12,030
called, you could search on
YouTube as to how to fix it, I

108
00:06:12,030 --> 00:06:16,380
suppose. Like when I have a
plumbing issue that I feel might

109
00:06:16,380 --> 00:06:20,130
be within my beginner's realm.
So you know, a bit like that if

110
00:06:20,130 --> 00:06:22,980
you were a beginner knitter,
whereas that didn't exist.

111
00:06:22,620 --> 00:06:25,380
Milli Abrams: No. And I'd
definitely say that there is so

112
00:06:25,445 --> 00:06:29,425
much more help. You could Google
everything now, with plumbing

113
00:06:29,490 --> 00:06:33,406
and everything. And back then I
think we did used to do a bit

114
00:06:33,471 --> 00:06:37,259
more trial and error. It was
either that or spend hours and

115
00:06:37,323 --> 00:06:41,368
hours at the library researching
something. We used to just try

116
00:06:41,432 --> 00:06:43,680
it, didn't we? With lots of things.

117
00:06:44,740 --> 00:06:46,720
Mia Hobbs: Okay, so did you
carry on knitting? So you've

118
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,860
knit fairly regularly since you
were six or seven?

119
00:06:51,980 --> 00:06:55,070
Milli Abrams: Yeah, so that
would have been 40 years ago.

120
00:06:55,820 --> 00:07:00,740
But no, I definitely had breaks.
So there were the chaotic

121
00:07:00,950 --> 00:07:05,210
teenage years when I had exams
and things, when I just probably

122
00:07:05,210 --> 00:07:09,830
wouldn't have had time. And
yeah, there were times in my

123
00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:12,440
life where I definitely let it
go for maybe two or three years

124
00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,920
at a time. And they were
probably the times when I

125
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,020
shouldn't have let it go and
should have made time. You know,

126
00:07:18,020 --> 00:07:20,990
it's always the way, isn't it,
when you feel like you haven't

127
00:07:20,990 --> 00:07:23,600
got time to meditate, that's
when you should be meditating.

128
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,520
It's the same with knitting. And
then I picked it up again, like

129
00:07:28,550 --> 00:07:33,440
PROPERLY properly, when I was
pregnant with Indy. He's 18 now,

130
00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,460
so that was 18 years ago. And
knit every morning before I got

131
00:07:37,490 --> 00:07:39,590
out of bed. I used to get
morning sickness, so Darren

132
00:07:39,590 --> 00:07:41,750
would bring me breakfast in bed
every morning and I would sit

133
00:07:41,750 --> 00:07:43,070
and knit while he was making
breakfast.

134
00:07:44,170 --> 00:07:45,520
Mia Hobbs: Were you knitting for
Indy?

135
00:07:45,510 --> 00:07:47,599
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I was
knitting booties. Lots of

136
00:07:47,655 --> 00:07:50,986
booties. I had this amazing book
of like, I don't know, 100

137
00:07:51,043 --> 00:07:54,600
bootie patterns, but it had lots
of different techniques in it.

138
00:07:54,300 --> 00:08:20,730
Mia Hobbs: Oh no! Have you
gifted them?

139
00:07:54,656 --> 00:07:57,875
So I was learning something
every day with a new knitting

140
00:07:57,931 --> 00:08:01,432
technique, and I was getting to
use different colour yarns and

141
00:08:01,488 --> 00:08:04,989
different fibres. I had a whole
bag of them and just worked my

142
00:08:05,045 --> 00:08:08,546
way through. I don't know how
many booties I made. I must have

143
00:08:08,602 --> 00:08:12,047
made 30 or 40 pairs of different
booties while I was pregnant

144
00:08:12,103 --> 00:08:15,434
with him, and I made a big
patchwork blanket. But then when

145
00:08:15,491 --> 00:08:18,765
he was born, he had enormous
feet and he didn't fit any of

146
00:08:18,822 --> 00:08:19,500
the booties.

147
00:08:21,230 --> 00:08:23,330
Milli Abrams: I gifted all of
them and they all fit normal

148
00:08:23,390 --> 00:08:28,010
babies. Indy had giant feet! And
only the giant duck feet fit

149
00:08:28,010 --> 00:08:30,320
him. [Laughs]

150
00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,440
Mia Hobbs: Aw! I found that I
couldn't get booties to stay on

151
00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:34,310
my children!

152
00:08:34,850 --> 00:08:37,190
Milli Abrams: No, they didn't
all, which is kind of why I made

153
00:08:37,190 --> 00:08:39,800
them all. Some of them were
really good patterns that stayed

154
00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,830
on and the others just were sort
of there for photos, I suppose.

155
00:08:42,860 --> 00:08:46,940
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Oh, that's
amazing. So it's been on and

156
00:08:46,940 --> 00:08:52,910
off, but mainly on, certainly on
for the last 18 years.

157
00:08:54,250 --> 00:08:56,920
Milli Abrams: Yeah. So when Indy
was born, we then emigrated to

158
00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,500
Canada when he was eight months
old. And it was really cold

159
00:08:59,500 --> 00:09:03,730
there, so I knit lots. And then
when he was seven, we moved on

160
00:09:03,730 --> 00:09:07,660
to the boat to go
circumnavigate, and I did knit

161
00:09:07,690 --> 00:09:12,520
on the boat as well. Probably
not as much.... no maybe I did.

162
00:09:12,550 --> 00:09:14,860
I did, but like different
fibres. A lot of silk and cotton

163
00:09:14,860 --> 00:09:19,030
because it's hot. And then we
moved to the Caribbean for five

164
00:09:19,030 --> 00:09:22,690
years, and I knit there as well,
but lots of lace weight blankets

165
00:09:22,690 --> 00:09:23,470
and that kind of thing.

166
00:09:23,470 --> 00:09:26,380
Mia Hobbs: Okay. Did you feel
like the motivation was less? Or

167
00:09:26,380 --> 00:09:29,380
is it not really so much about
the final product?

168
00:09:30,130 --> 00:09:31,780
Milli Abrams: It's never been
about the final product for me.

169
00:09:32,230 --> 00:09:35,650
It''s never ever been about the
final product. I for my whole

170
00:09:35,650 --> 00:09:39,700
life have knit things and then
just given them away, almost

171
00:09:39,700 --> 00:09:42,670
immediately. I don't tend to
keep any of my knits for myself.

172
00:09:45,340 --> 00:09:47,800
Mia Hobbs: Is it more for the
process? Because obviously there

173
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,060
is a joy to giving things to
people for the point of giving a

174
00:09:52,060 --> 00:09:55,540
gift, that is more meaningful,
but it sounds also a lot of it's

175
00:09:55,540 --> 00:09:56,680
about the process for you.

176
00:09:56,690 --> 00:09:59,660
Milli Abrams: It's the process.
It's completely the process,

177
00:09:59,660 --> 00:09:59,930
yeah.

178
00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:02,180
Mia Hobbs: If you were on a
desert island with one ball of

179
00:10:02,180 --> 00:10:04,940
brown yarn that you had to
re-knit over and over again,

180
00:10:04,970 --> 00:10:05,510
you'd be knitting it.

181
00:10:05,510 --> 00:10:08,480
Milli Abrams: Absolutely. And I
had to do that in the Caribbean

182
00:10:08,510 --> 00:10:10,580
all the time, because we
couldn't get anything shipped to

183
00:10:10,580 --> 00:10:13,520
us. And it would take months and
months. So I would just knit

184
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,400
something, rip it out, knit it
again. I did that all the time.

185
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,400
So it is very much process.

186
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:25,000
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And does it
matter what you knit? As in the

187
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:30,700
techniques? Is garter stitch
equally valuable to knitting

188
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,420
lace or cables? Or does it
matter?

189
00:10:36,700 --> 00:10:38,650
Milli Abrams: I think it
depends. It's got to be

190
00:10:38,650 --> 00:10:42,370
something new for me every time.
So I very rarely, I think never,

191
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,130
make the second sock, because
I've made the sock and I don't

192
00:10:45,130 --> 00:10:48,820
want to make another one. So I
almost never make the same thing

193
00:10:48,850 --> 00:10:52,000
twice, unless I'm changing the
technique or changing something

194
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,910
up about it. I recently knit two
Badger & Bloom sweaters where I

195
00:10:54,910 --> 00:10:58,210
changed the technique quite a
lot both times, just to test it

196
00:10:58,210 --> 00:10:58,480
out.

197
00:10:59,050 --> 00:11:01,180
Mia Hobbs: And the colour isn't
enough of a change?

198
00:11:02,020 --> 00:11:06,490
Milli Abrams: No, it's not
really. I knit for colour... A

199
00:11:06,490 --> 00:11:08,440
lot of the time, it's because of
the colour I want to hang out

200
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,460
with, so that will determine
what I'm knitting. But it's got

201
00:11:12,460 --> 00:11:15,910
to be something new that I
haven't experienced before. It

202
00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:18,580
might be that I have to
experience a new fibre. Yeah, I

203
00:11:18,580 --> 00:11:22,600
think it's technique more than
anything, though. And it's

204
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,480
weird, after 40 years of doing
lots of knitting and learning

205
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,420
all the [inaudible], I'm still
discovering new techniques all

206
00:11:28,420 --> 00:11:30,940
the time, which is brilliant. I
think that's such a cool thing

207
00:11:30,940 --> 00:11:31,510
about knitting.

208
00:11:31,750 --> 00:11:33,550
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, you can't ever
run out.

209
00:11:34,290 --> 00:11:38,160
Milli Abrams: No, you can't
really. And I do knit things

210
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,620
several times and rip them out,
but I've just started a cardigan

211
00:11:40,620 --> 00:11:43,320
yesterday which I will rip out
today and start again, because

212
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,720
there's a couple of things I
thought of during the night that

213
00:11:45,750 --> 00:11:49,650
I should have done differently.
So yeah, I'm fine with ripping

214
00:11:49,650 --> 00:11:53,790
out. So about the gifting: yes,
I do knit specifically for

215
00:11:53,790 --> 00:11:56,730
gifts, but no, usually I'm
knitting something and then I

216
00:11:56,730 --> 00:12:02,460
think, "Oh, who'd like this? Who
would this fit? Who wants it?".

217
00:12:05,180 --> 00:12:09,380
Mia Hobbs: Okay. I'd love to
hear more about colour, because

218
00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:12,800
I think you said you've got a
qualification in colour...

219
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,660
Milli Abrams: Applied colour
psychology.

220
00:12:14,690 --> 00:12:16,730
Mia Hobbs: Applied colour
psychology. So I'd love to hear

221
00:12:16,730 --> 00:12:21,710
about that, and your ideas about
colour and how it benefits your

222
00:12:21,710 --> 00:12:25,550
mental wellbeing, being around
colour. I like the idea of

223
00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:28,310
choosing a colour you want to
hang out with! Because I think I

224
00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:30,380
do that with my knitting
projects. I have quite a long

225
00:12:30,380 --> 00:12:35,720
relationship with them because
I'm not that fast. [Laughs]

226
00:12:34,710 --> 00:12:37,948
Milli Abrams: Colour is very,
very important. I didn't know

227
00:12:38,020 --> 00:12:42,122
anything about... I'm an
accountant so it wasn't anything

228
00:12:42,194 --> 00:12:46,225
that I'd studied in the early
days, but I have an Indian

229
00:12:46,297 --> 00:12:50,399
background so we've always been
very experimentative with

230
00:12:50,471 --> 00:12:54,645
colour, with our saris and
things. And approaching my 40s,

231
00:12:54,717 --> 00:12:59,036
I suppose... late 30s/40s... I
got a bit frustrated with how

232
00:12:59,107 --> 00:13:03,210
sensible people were being
around colour and how coy they

233
00:13:02,240 --> 00:14:06,560
Would you do that historically,
as well, when you didn't work in

234
00:13:03,282 --> 00:13:07,240
were, and how they were
embarrassed about using certain

235
00:13:07,312 --> 00:13:11,630
colours, and that kind of thing.
If you walked down the high

236
00:13:11,702 --> 00:13:16,021
street a couple of years ago,
all you'd see was grey, khaki,

237
00:13:16,093 --> 00:13:20,699
maybe a little bit of mustard. I
couldn't buy the colours that I

238
00:13:20,771 --> 00:13:25,089
wanted from a shop, so I did use
knitting to introduce those

239
00:13:25,161 --> 00:13:29,623
colours into my life. But I also
realised a long time ago that

240
00:13:29,695 --> 00:13:33,941
certain colours do certain
things to my mood, and I can use

241
00:13:34,013 --> 00:13:38,331
that to my advantage. So when I
use really, really saturated

242
00:13:38,403 --> 00:13:42,866
bright colours, they will wake
me up, so I can use them in the

243
00:13:42,937 --> 00:13:46,968
morning to just really get
going, or before a meeting to

244
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,070
get energised, or something like
that. Especially during

245
00:13:51,142 --> 00:13:55,676
meetings. So I knit through all
my board meetings and things. I

246
00:13:55,748 --> 00:14:00,210
would always knit and I'd always
pick a bright colour for that

247
00:14:00,282 --> 00:14:02,370
because it just energised me.

248
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:07,880
yarn and knitting?

249
00:14:08,330 --> 00:14:09,290
Yeah, absolutely.

250
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,360
Mia Hobbs: And I'm guessing you
were the only person doing that!

251
00:14:12,290 --> 00:14:15,110
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I was the
only person knitting. And it was

252
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:19,280
fine. It wasn't fine, right at
the beginning when I was a

253
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:25,430
junior. I'd get told off. But as
I became more senior, I could

254
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:28,100
tell people that it actually
helped me focus and they all got

255
00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:30,530
used to it. So I'd sit in a
meeting with Branson or whatever

256
00:14:30,530 --> 00:14:35,450
and I'd always be knitting. But
I also conversely couldn't pick

257
00:14:35,450 --> 00:14:39,500
up those same colours and knit
with them right before bed. I

258
00:14:39,530 --> 00:14:41,990
always knit right before bed,
but I can't knit the really

259
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:45,530
really bright colours under a
fairly bright light because they

260
00:14:45,530 --> 00:14:49,700
wake me up and they don't allow
me to sort of gently ease down

261
00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:50,510
at the end of the day.

262
00:14:51,230 --> 00:14:53,900
Mia Hobbs: So you need more than
one project on the go for

263
00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:56,600
different situations.

264
00:14:56,900 --> 00:14:59,780
Milli Abrams: Yes. Different for
colour but also different for

265
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,800
"Do I really want to escape into
a very challenging pattern with

266
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,070
lots of charts and things
because I need to just not think

267
00:15:07,070 --> 00:15:10,280
about everything right now? Or
do I just want something that is

268
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,490
in my hands, and TV knitting, so
that I can listen to whatever

269
00:15:13,490 --> 00:15:14,270
I'm listening to?"

270
00:15:15,410 --> 00:15:17,600
Mia Hobbs: That's a really
common theme that has come up

271
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,540
again and again, and certainly
something I relate very strongly

272
00:15:20,540 --> 00:15:24,740
to. The idea of having to have
something complicated to absorb

273
00:15:24,740 --> 00:15:27,710
yourself in when you need to
escape from real life, or

274
00:15:27,710 --> 00:15:30,290
something that you could knit
while you're listening to your

275
00:15:30,290 --> 00:15:33,680
kids read, that doesn't require
any of your brain. And I

276
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:39,380
certainly would knit through
Zoom meetings and training

277
00:15:39,380 --> 00:15:43,100
courses, and have never been
anything other than the only

278
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:44,870
knitter. [Laughs]

279
00:15:45,950 --> 00:15:50,360
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it is weird,
isn't it? I found when Indy was

280
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,610
little, you know, when your kids
are little and you have to wait

281
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,510
all the time, you've got to wait
for them to finish a sports

282
00:15:56,510 --> 00:15:59,390
match or whatever, there's just
a lot of waiting in life.

283
00:15:59,390 --> 00:16:02,450
Waiting at the dentist and all
these things. And I just found

284
00:16:02,450 --> 00:16:04,850
that if I always had my
knitting, I never really minded

285
00:16:04,850 --> 00:16:07,070
the wait. Actually, I quite
liked the wait. It was a really

286
00:16:07,070 --> 00:16:12,530
good time for me to just get
into my knitting. And I travel a

287
00:16:12,530 --> 00:16:17,690
lot and airport delays were
pleasurable, because I had my

288
00:16:17,690 --> 00:16:19,640
knitting with me. And it just
meant that I could chill out and

289
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:24,890
knit, and it didn't matter that
the planes was delayed. I don't

290
00:16:24,890 --> 00:16:27,080
know how people that don't knit
cope, I honestly don't! I just

291
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:29,300
don't know how they manage to
wait for anything.

292
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,700
Mia Hobbs: I do feel a slight
anxiety, I think, if I have to

293
00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:37,760
do something like that, that I
don't have my knitting with me

294
00:16:40,490 --> 00:16:43,280
because I've had too many things
to think about and it's just not

295
00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,670
made it in the bag. But quite
often, if I'm going away for a

296
00:16:46,670 --> 00:16:49,850
weekend and getting a train
somewhere... The other weekend,

297
00:16:49,940 --> 00:16:51,830
I forgot the dress I was
planning to wear out in the

298
00:16:51,830 --> 00:16:54,500
evening, but I had three
knitting projects with me.

299
00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:58,820
[Laughs] Because that was my
priority, in my head!

300
00:17:00,830 --> 00:17:01,460
Milli Abrams: Definitely.

301
00:17:02,660 --> 00:17:06,680
Mia Hobbs: I don't know whether
you learnt about this in the

302
00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:09,530
course you did, about whether
there are particular colours

303
00:17:09,530 --> 00:17:13,040
that are more associated with
positive or negative mood, or

304
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,230
whether it's not really like
that. Whether different people

305
00:17:15,230 --> 00:17:15,890
have different...

306
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,530
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it's a
really, really interesting

307
00:17:19,530 --> 00:17:22,710
topic. And it's huge and very
deep, so it would take hours to

308
00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:29,760
go over everything. But I guess
the main points were... I'm very

309
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:36,810
into maths, maths is my
background, and there are

310
00:17:36,810 --> 00:17:43,020
patterns and wavelengths behind
each colour and some colours

311
00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:48,930
harmonise because of the
patterns and the waves, and some

312
00:17:48,930 --> 00:17:51,720
colours don't. So that was one
of the things that we learnt a

313
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,650
lot about. So, you know, I'm
good at putting colours together

314
00:17:55,650 --> 00:17:58,530
and I'm good at avoiding certain
colour combinations that are

315
00:17:58,530 --> 00:18:02,100
horrible. And I know that
intuitively somewhat, I guess,

316
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:05,580
from practising a lot, but also
because of the maths behind the

317
00:18:05,580 --> 00:18:09,510
colour. So there's that. There's
the colours that people should

318
00:18:09,510 --> 00:18:12,780
and shouldn't wear... well, it's
not really a should... it's the

319
00:18:12,780 --> 00:18:15,570
colours that suit people more
than the colours that don't. So

320
00:18:15,570 --> 00:18:18,870
that was also part of the
course. And that has more to do

321
00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:22,320
with who you are and your
personality, as well as your own

322
00:18:22,350 --> 00:18:25,530
personal colouring, but a lot
more to do with your

323
00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:28,860
personality. And it's broken
into four separate groups. So I

324
00:18:28,860 --> 00:18:35,460
think recently, companies like
House of Colour have taken those

325
00:18:35,460 --> 00:18:38,430
and called them seasons to try
and organise that a little bit

326
00:18:38,430 --> 00:18:41,400
more. And that's fine. They've
done it completely wrong in a

327
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,740
couple of ways, because they've
tried to make it equal across

328
00:18:43,740 --> 00:18:47,550
the seasons, which is not the
case right now, but that's a

329
00:18:47,550 --> 00:18:51,810
whole 'nother topic. So there's
that, and then there's also the

330
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,310
behavioural aspect of how a
colour will influence your mood

331
00:18:56,310 --> 00:18:58,530
and why you might be drawn to
it, and why you might not be

332
00:18:58,530 --> 00:19:05,220
drawn to it at a particular
time. So for example, if you had

333
00:19:05,730 --> 00:19:09,990
an orange dining plate or were
sitting in an orange room while

334
00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:13,080
you were eating, you probably
will eat more. You'll over eat.

335
00:19:13,470 --> 00:19:19,230
It's just influence. It opens up
your mind, and abundance and

336
00:19:19,230 --> 00:19:22,740
that kind of thing. You just
tend to over consume with

337
00:19:22,770 --> 00:19:27,930
orange. Purple tends to be a
colour that is for people that

338
00:19:28,860 --> 00:19:32,340
are feeling a bit less sociable
at that particular time, or very

339
00:19:32,340 --> 00:19:34,770
much more choosy. It's a colour
that people are drawn to when

340
00:19:34,770 --> 00:19:39,150
they're hungover. It's not all
shades of purple, but I'm

341
00:19:39,150 --> 00:19:43,980
generalising just for now. Red,
you know, we're very familiar

342
00:19:43,980 --> 00:19:46,500
with red being a little bit more
aggressive, a bit more in your

343
00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:52,770
face, just open, just much more
bold, And then blue is a really

344
00:19:52,770 --> 00:19:57,450
great one for focusing. Again,
not all blues. So when Indy was

345
00:19:57,870 --> 00:20:00,240
having exams when he was younger
and he used to pick up some

346
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,580
knitting (he doesn't tend to
anymore),  then I would have him

347
00:20:02,580 --> 00:20:06,810
knit with blue yarns as a little
break between study sessions,

348
00:20:06,810 --> 00:20:11,460
because it would keep that part
of his brain active but allow

349
00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:17,250
him to have a little break from
studying. So blue was great for

350
00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:27,240
that. And I will use it. Like I
said, if I need to be really

351
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,130
thinking and thinking
spreadsheets and that kind of

352
00:20:29,130 --> 00:20:31,860
thing, I'll pick up my blue
project for a little bit and

353
00:20:31,860 --> 00:20:34,800
just calm down with that, and
then go straight into my

354
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:36,750
thinking piece.

355
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,690
Mia Hobbs: So you're very
deliberate about your choices of

356
00:20:39,690 --> 00:20:43,710
what you're knitting with, to
fit the circumstances in your

357
00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:43,800
life?

358
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,260
Milli Abrams: I mean, it just
happens now. I think what I'm

359
00:20:46,260 --> 00:20:49,800
deliberate about is making sure
that I've got enough projects at

360
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,910
hand or around. I don't like to
have more than three projects on

361
00:20:53,910 --> 00:20:56,400
the go, because I am someone
that likes to finish. I don't

362
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,370
tend to have lots of WIPs. I
like finishing. But I do have

363
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,700
three that are intentionally
quite different from each other

364
00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:07,170
because of what they will do for
my mental health.

365
00:21:08,110 --> 00:21:10,330
Mia Hobbs: So that sounds very
deliberate in that sense. And I

366
00:21:10,330 --> 00:21:13,810
think I certainly would relate
to that: that the things I'm

367
00:21:13,810 --> 00:21:18,130
working on have to fit different
needs for me. But I don't

368
00:21:18,130 --> 00:21:20,380
actually think about the colour
in that way, which is really

369
00:21:20,380 --> 00:21:24,730
interesting. And actually, when
I spoke to Betsan Corkhill, who

370
00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:28,390
is an expert in therapeutic
knitting, she speaks a lot about

371
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:32,080
the idea of using knitting to...
rather than it reflecting the

372
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,590
mood you're in, thinking about
the mood you want to move

373
00:21:35,590 --> 00:21:38,800
yourself into. And that sounds
very similar to your ethos.

374
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:46,190
Milli Abrams: Yeah. And also,
with the finished garment, when

375
00:21:46,190 --> 00:21:50,120
you're wearing it... Like I'll
use the colours of the garments

376
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:55,160
that I'm wearing to convey a
certain type of my personality

377
00:21:55,160 --> 00:22:01,520
in a public setting, or not. So
for example, for my whole life I

378
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:06,200
was an accountant; I so much was
drawn to what people would refer

379
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,690
to as the winter colours, like
cooler colours, and they do suit

380
00:22:08,690 --> 00:22:12,260
me, your blacks, your whites,
your strong reds, peacocks, that

381
00:22:12,260 --> 00:22:16,430
kind of thing. And I was always
really drawn to that. But it

382
00:22:16,430 --> 00:22:19,850
does make me much less
approachable as a person. So

383
00:22:19,850 --> 00:22:22,340
when I opened the shop, one of
the things that I talked to

384
00:22:22,340 --> 00:22:24,830
Angela about (who's like the
guru of colour therapy), she was

385
00:22:24,830 --> 00:22:27,530
like, "Well, just make sure that
you're never in there wearing

386
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,100
blacks and whites." So this new
business of mine was not like

387
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:33,680
accounting; I needed to be
approachable and soft. And I

388
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,570
needed to sort of bring out my
more autumn aspects. So I wear a

389
00:22:38,570 --> 00:22:42,860
lot more rich autumnal colours
and navies and that kind of

390
00:22:42,860 --> 00:22:47,120
thing, which also suit me but I
wouldn't have dreamt of wearing

391
00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:50,450
them as an accountant. I didn't
want to be that person in that

392
00:22:50,660 --> 00:22:55,640
setting, whereas I do now. And
then conversely, if I'm going to

393
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,030
something else where I just want
a bit more glamour, I'll wear

394
00:22:59,030 --> 00:22:59,570
black again.

395
00:23:00,410 --> 00:23:02,690
Mia Hobbs: I wonder whether that
was also to do with... I'm

396
00:23:02,690 --> 00:23:06,680
guessing you were in a more
male-dominated environment when

397
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,410
you were in business? Or maybe
needing to convey more power

398
00:23:08,820 --> 00:23:13,140
Milli Abrams: Yeah, right in the
beginning I was. I mean, I am

399
00:23:09,410 --> 00:23:10,880
than you do in your yarn shop.

400
00:23:13,230 --> 00:23:18,810
quite a small woman and I just
needed more help with the power

401
00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:24,480
that I was exuding when I was
telling people no, they couldn't

402
00:23:20,050 --> 00:23:33,880
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. I wonder
whether there are other ways

403
00:23:24,570 --> 00:23:27,720
have that money or whatever it was.

404
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,070
that we haven't talked about
that you feel knitting is

405
00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:38,740
beneficial for your mental
wellbeing.

406
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,600
Milli Abrams: We get loads of
people in the shop that will

407
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:47,660
come by and say, "Oh, that's
lovely. I wish I could do that,

408
00:23:47,660 --> 00:23:52,100
but I don't have the patience
for that." And I am the least

409
00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:55,730
patient person I've ever met in
my life. I'm just not patient,

410
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:03,200
I'm not tolerant. And therefore
knitting is even more important

411
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,440
for me than it would be for
someone who already is calm and

412
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:11,330
zen and patient. So I think when
people say that, I'd love the

413
00:24:11,330 --> 00:24:15,260
people to know... especially
men, I think, because they tend

414
00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:18,290
to be more the ones that are
like, "Oh, I don't have time. I

415
00:24:18,290 --> 00:24:23,810
work." And the other thing I
hear is "I don't have time." I

416
00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:26,810
don't have time, I work crazy
hours, but I still find time for

417
00:24:26,810 --> 00:24:33,470
knitting. I think it's important
to have something, especially in

418
00:24:33,470 --> 00:24:38,060
this day and age when we are
just overstimulated all the

419
00:24:38,060 --> 00:24:42,830
time. If you could have
something like meditating or

420
00:24:44,090 --> 00:24:48,500
colouring in or knitting, that
takes you off your device and

421
00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:52,340
gives you something repetitive
and small, and it is about those

422
00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:55,730
micro movements, that's where
the magic is, releasing the good

423
00:24:55,730 --> 00:24:59,450
hormones. And with knitting that
means not knitting on needles

424
00:24:59,450 --> 00:25:04,280
that are more than about 5mm.
There's a sweet spot with a

425
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,300
knitting needle to keep it
micro, to get the maximum

426
00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:13,340
benefit with your serotonin.
Everyone sort of needs that, I

427
00:25:13,340 --> 00:25:16,280
think, these days. I've actually
lived on a desert island.

428
00:25:17,450 --> 00:25:19,100
Mia Hobbs: And even then you
still brought your knitting!

429
00:25:19,940 --> 00:25:21,500
Milli Abrams: Yeah, and I would
still bring my knitting!

430
00:25:22,850 --> 00:25:23,000
[Laughs]

431
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:23,450
Mia Hobbs: I would too.

432
00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:28,370
Milli Abrams: I meditate and I
have done lots over the years.

433
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,860
And that comes and goes a lot
more than my knitting does,

434
00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:34,940
because at the end of the day I
feel guilty about sitting down

435
00:25:34,940 --> 00:25:39,830
and doing nothing. I just have
that. I don't know what it is,

436
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,710
but I do feel guilty about that
unless I'm knitting. And then

437
00:25:43,850 --> 00:25:46,250
somewhere in my head, I know I'm
creating and relaxing, and then

438
00:25:46,250 --> 00:25:50,390
I can really let myself be in it
and sit and do it for hours,

439
00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:51,260
which is really important.

440
00:25:54,780 --> 00:25:57,690
Mia Hobbs: I suppose I've heard
quite often the idea that

441
00:25:57,690 --> 00:26:01,260
knitting is kind of a substitute
for meditation, or a form of

442
00:26:01,260 --> 00:26:04,800
meditation. And several of the
people I've spoken to, and

443
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,750
certainly I think this is
probably true of me, have

444
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:12,270
classified themselves as failed
meditators, therefore they are

445
00:26:12,540 --> 00:26:17,190
knitters, and they get a kind of
similar thing from it. It sounds

446
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:19,080
like you've stuck with your
knitting maybe more constantly

447
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:20,520
than you have with the
meditation.

448
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,950
Milli Abrams: Yeah, definitely.
I have stuck with knitting a lot

449
00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:27,390
more. And I think mainly because
it doesn't do the same thing for

450
00:26:27,390 --> 00:26:29,970
me as meditating. Meditating is
definitely much more intense.

451
00:26:29,970 --> 00:26:34,200
But I think it's more the
portability and the

452
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:40,440
practicality. So I can still do
it at a train station and hear

453
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,920
when my train is coming and not
be completely cut off from the

454
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:50,310
world. And when I do meditate, I
do it to get to a much deeper

455
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:54,570
state, and it takes a lot
longer, like two or three hours.

456
00:26:55,020 --> 00:26:58,440
And it has to be silent, and I
can't have the family running

457
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:04,590
around. I can't do that as
often. I can pick up my knitting

458
00:27:05,430 --> 00:27:09,450
ten times a day and just have a
little meditative break with my

459
00:27:09,450 --> 00:27:13,830
knitting, so I think that's why
I do it a lot more. And these

460
00:27:13,830 --> 00:27:16,560
days, yarns are SO much nicer
than they used to be, and

461
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,370
patterns are just everywhere and
so accessible. It's just so much

462
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,590
easier to find the right
project.

463
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,070
Mia Hobbs: And in terms of what
you're drawn to do you like a

464
00:27:27,070 --> 00:27:31,210
variety in terms of yarn? Is
that also something that floats

465
00:27:31,210 --> 00:27:31,690
your boat?

466
00:27:32,350 --> 00:27:35,020
Milli Abrams: Yeah, massively.
So I love the super, super

467
00:27:35,020 --> 00:27:39,940
rustic Icelandics. Absolutely
love those. And then I really

468
00:27:39,940 --> 00:27:47,380
like my super high end silks and
cashmeres. It's important to me

469
00:27:47,380 --> 00:27:49,690
that I know where the yarns come
from, and then I know that it's

470
00:27:49,690 --> 00:27:55,360
ethically made. And it's
important to me that it doesn't

471
00:27:55,360 --> 00:28:01,120
have plastic in it. But other
than that, a wide variety and a

472
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:04,930
wide variety of gauges. And I do
knit with chunky yarns

473
00:28:04,930 --> 00:28:07,510
sometimes, usually if it's just
because I have to make a short

474
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:11,470
sample/I have to bang out a gift
really quickly. But my sort of

475
00:28:11,470 --> 00:28:16,240
sweet spot for a needle is about
the 3.75 range, and that will

476
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:17,980
give me the max pleasure.

477
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:20,930
Mia Hobbs: I'm the same
actually. I've heard a lot of

478
00:28:20,930 --> 00:28:24,230
people on the podcast who don't
like knitting on the smaller

479
00:28:24,770 --> 00:28:27,050
gauges. And I didn't know
whether it was because of that,

480
00:28:27,050 --> 00:28:29,570
or just the things I wanted to
knit recently, that I ended up

481
00:28:29,570 --> 00:28:34,370
knitting with some larger
gauge... I mean larger for me,

482
00:28:34,370 --> 00:28:38,480
like an Aran weight yarn, so
like a 5 maybe or 5.5. I'm quite

483
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,590
a loose knitter. But my hands
don't like it as much. I find

484
00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:51,350
that I don't get RSI at all if I
knitted on 2.25 or 3 or quite

485
00:28:51,350 --> 00:28:55,190
tiny needles, and knitted with
4-ply. I could do that probably

486
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:59,810
forever. Whereas if it gets
bigger, even a DK, I think my

487
00:28:59,810 --> 00:29:02,780
hands struggle a bit more. And
they don't love cotton either.

488
00:29:01,469 --> 00:29:04,199
Milli Abrams: Yeah, there's no
stretch in cotton. Unless you

489
00:29:04,258 --> 00:29:07,879
get a chain knit. I've recently
discovered really great chain

490
00:29:07,938 --> 00:29:11,440
knits, which is a fairly new
thing in the industry, because

491
00:29:11,499 --> 00:29:14,585
the old chain knits were
terrible. But the new chain

492
00:29:14,645 --> 00:29:18,325
knits that they use cotton for
have stretch in them, so if you

493
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:21,311
Mia Hobbs: That's interesting. I
was interested in the idea about

494
00:29:18,384 --> 00:29:22,183
want to knit cotton, get a chain
knit. It's brilliant. Okay. But

495
00:29:21,431 --> 00:29:28,262
the kind of things people say
about knitting in the shop,

496
00:29:22,242 --> 00:29:25,862
yeah, the bigger needles, and it
just becomes more of a macro

497
00:29:25,922 --> 00:29:29,602
movement and you tend to involve
a bit more shoulder and elbow

498
00:29:28,382 --> 00:29:35,573
because you must have a lot of
conversations with people who

499
00:29:29,661 --> 00:29:33,282
and things. It's not something
that you can just do with your

500
00:29:33,341 --> 00:29:37,140
fingertips. Yeah, you need to
fight a bit more with the process.

501
00:29:35,693 --> 00:29:42,404
are new or want to start
knitting, and super-experienced

502
00:29:42,524 --> 00:29:50,194
knitters, about whether they say
things about what knitting does

503
00:29:50,314 --> 00:29:57,145
for them, or what kind of
questions they ask you, whether

504
00:29:57,265 --> 00:30:01,460
they ask for your help with colour?

505
00:30:03,010 --> 00:30:06,340
Milli Abrams: Yeah, we get lots
of feedback from knitters about

506
00:30:06,340 --> 00:30:09,790
how, especially during lockdown,
it just saved them, for a lot of

507
00:30:09,790 --> 00:30:10,240
people.

508
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,360
Mia Hobbs: Is that more existing
knitters, would you say?

509
00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:17,650
Milli Abrams: No, both during
lockdown actually. And then with

510
00:30:17,650 --> 00:30:22,270
the experience, I'd say the
majority was people that had

511
00:30:22,270 --> 00:30:26,380
returned to knitting. So they've
had the greatest benefit, and

512
00:30:26,380 --> 00:30:29,770
they've usually not done it for
a long time and they did it on

513
00:30:29,770 --> 00:30:34,240
really old-style needles with
old yarn, and everything's moved

514
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,890
on to such a huge extent that
the tools are just 100%

515
00:30:38,890 --> 00:30:42,730
different to what they used to
be, and the yarns. So they've

516
00:30:42,730 --> 00:30:46,360
had the greatest sort of wow
moments. We have lots of people

517
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,050
who are experiencing grief who
turned to knitting. And

518
00:30:50,050 --> 00:30:52,360
actually, I think there's a lot
of doctors that tell people that

519
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,910
they should try knitting when
they're experiencing grief. And

520
00:30:54,910 --> 00:31:00,310
it seems to really, really help
them just sort of metabolise it,

521
00:31:00,310 --> 00:31:07,480
I guess. What was your... oh,
the colours. Yeah, colours is my

522
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,460
thing, so yes, I do get a lot
of...

523
00:31:09,460 --> 00:31:11,320
Mia Hobbs: So you enjoy having
those conversations with people

524
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:11,770
and helping them pick.

525
00:31:11,670 --> 00:31:15,266
Milli Abrams: That's my
favourite thing to do. And it's

526
00:31:15,350 --> 00:31:40,700
Mia Hobbs: It's interesting that
for you, you know more about the

527
00:31:15,354 --> 00:31:20,441
funny how there's so many people
who feel really lost with

528
00:31:20,529 --> 00:31:25,704
colours, or really just don't
trust themselves with it. And

529
00:31:25,792 --> 00:31:30,879
then you can get colours wrong.
I feel actually physically

530
00:31:30,967 --> 00:31:37,020
nauseous when I see some colour
combos, and it affects me viscerally.

531
00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:44,360
kind of mathematical formula of
why. Because I think sometimes I

532
00:31:44,390 --> 00:31:47,360
probably have looked at a
colourwork sweater and thought,

533
00:31:47,690 --> 00:31:52,640
"Ooh I'm not sure..." You know,
you look on Ravelry and see lots

534
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,730
of versions of the same sweater
for inspiration, and then think,

535
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,920
"Ooh, not that one." But I would
just feel like it was my spidey

536
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,710
senses or something. I wouldn't
be able to put science on it,

537
00:32:03,710 --> 00:32:05,120
but that must be great!

538
00:32:07,220 --> 00:32:13,220
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it is great!
But there's also... Angela was

539
00:32:13,220 --> 00:32:15,500
always very "You mustn't put
this colour with this colour."

540
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,130
And yes, there is that, but I
also really love to have a

541
00:32:19,130 --> 00:32:21,650
disrupter in there somewhere, so
long as it's the right type of

542
00:32:21,650 --> 00:32:26,060
disrupter. You don't want
something that was lovely and

543
00:32:26,060 --> 00:32:31,040
energetic, and then had a weird
sort of drab colour in there

544
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,080
that just made it all fall
apart. That's not the right

545
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,870
disrupter. But if you had
something that was a whole bunch

546
00:32:35,870 --> 00:32:41,270
of, say, neutrals with a pastel
or something, and then you

547
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:46,160
chucked in one disruptive colour
that just gave that piece a lot

548
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,290
of energy, that's my favourite
sort of thing to do.

549
00:32:48,150 --> 00:32:52,077
Mia Hobbs: Do you know, my mum
says that about... she's like,

550
00:32:52,156 --> 00:32:56,869
"You need one (she'll call it)
ugly colour in there, to make

551
00:32:56,947 --> 00:33:01,739
the others look great." [Laughs]
But she's great with colour.

552
00:33:01,817 --> 00:33:06,530
She's so good and confident from
just, I don't know, natural

553
00:33:06,609 --> 00:33:08,730
ability and being artistic.

554
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,170
Milli Abrams: Yeah! And years of
practice.

555
00:33:09,290 --> 00:33:11,870
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. But she's
really good at experimenting and

556
00:33:11,870 --> 00:33:14,150
seeing what works, and changing
it if it doesn't.

557
00:33:15,380 --> 00:33:17,480
Milli Abrams: And that's the
other thing: you've got to be

558
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,150
willing to change it if it
doesn't work and to make the

559
00:33:20,150 --> 00:33:22,220
mistakes.  And if you want to
get good at it, you've just got

560
00:33:22,220 --> 00:33:27,560
to keep practising and be open
to your own feedback and realise

561
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,050
when actually no, that's not
good.

562
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:33,470
Mia Hobbs: Do you think you've
always been so good at ripping

563
00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:36,830
out? Or tolerant of it? Because
I think I've definitely got

564
00:33:36,830 --> 00:33:39,950
better over time, and now other
people are much more traumatised

565
00:33:39,950 --> 00:33:41,990
watching me do it than I feel
about doing it.

566
00:33:41,490 --> 00:33:44,808
Milli Abrams: Oh yeah. Darren
used to be horrified that I used

567
00:33:44,877 --> 00:33:49,301
to finish a whole thing and then
find one thing at the beginning

568
00:33:49,370 --> 00:33:53,656
where I would wish I'd stuck a
colour in or something, and I'd

569
00:33:53,725 --> 00:33:58,149
rip it all back. But yeah, I've
always been totally fine because

570
00:33:58,218 --> 00:34:02,020
I'm a process knitter and I
don't really care about the

571
00:34:02,089 --> 00:34:06,375
final knitted thing to own or
wear. It's the process. The only

572
00:34:06,444 --> 00:34:10,730
thing that really traumatises
me, I'd say, (if it's trauma) is

573
00:34:10,799 --> 00:34:14,877
I'm terrible about cutting...
you know where it says "break

574
00:34:14,946 --> 00:34:19,025
yarn". I know that I will very
often go back and rip things

575
00:34:19,094 --> 00:34:23,311
out, so I beat myself up over
cutting a yarn where I probably

576
00:34:23,380 --> 00:34:27,527
shouldn't have cut it, and I
should have left it attached to

577
00:34:25,610 --> 00:34:43,640
Mia Hobbs: Because the ends are
worse, aren't they, for that? If

578
00:34:27,596 --> 00:34:31,329
the ball because I almost
definitely always go back. I

579
00:34:31,398 --> 00:34:35,477
don't like ends. I just don't
like too many ends. I've knit

580
00:34:35,546 --> 00:34:39,832
with silks and cottons so much
that ends are a little bit of a

581
00:34:39,901 --> 00:34:40,800
trauma to me.

582
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,850
it was a sheep's wool, we could
spit splice it.

583
00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:51,440
Milli Abrams: Exactly. I don't
mind cutting those. I'm awful at

584
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,620
having these projects with loads
of balls attached because I

585
00:34:54,620 --> 00:34:59,960
refuse to cut anything until
it's done. [Laughs]

586
00:35:00,020 --> 00:35:03,350
Mia Hobbs: I would love to ask
about a significant knitting

587
00:35:03,350 --> 00:35:09,830
project for you. It could be
something that feels significant

588
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,410
in your journey with knitting or
for your life.

589
00:35:14,250 --> 00:35:16,170
Milli Abrams: That's a good
question. I think for a long

590
00:35:16,170 --> 00:35:18,570
time, it would have been the
blanket that I made for Indy

591
00:35:18,570 --> 00:35:22,200
when I was pregnant. That was
very personal to him. But I

592
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,110
couldn't even tell you where
that is now. We might have lost

593
00:35:25,110 --> 00:35:30,240
it in the hurricane, I don't
know. I make a conscious effort

594
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:36,810
to not be attached to anything
physical, so I try not to get

595
00:35:36,810 --> 00:35:39,930
really, really attached to the
actual thing. But in terms of

596
00:35:40,380 --> 00:35:40,770
the process...

597
00:35:40,770 --> 00:35:44,340
Mia Hobbs: Even just the process
of being somewhere significant

598
00:35:44,340 --> 00:35:46,290
at a time in your life while you
made it.

599
00:35:47,590 --> 00:35:54,430
Milli Abrams: Yeah, definitely
the pregnancy ones. I mean, I

600
00:35:54,430 --> 00:36:00,100
like some projects where you've
designed it yourself. I guess it

601
00:36:00,100 --> 00:36:04,930
means a lot more than when I'm
knitting off another pattern.

602
00:36:04,930 --> 00:36:08,650
And normally, that's because
I've knit it like 7, 8, 9 times

603
00:36:08,650 --> 00:36:11,440
and ripped it back and knit it
again just to get it right. So

604
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,660
you spend a lot of time with it
and you're a bit more invested

605
00:36:13,660 --> 00:36:19,630
in those projects. I've never
knit anything for Darren so I

606
00:36:19,630 --> 00:36:22,600
can't say that it's anything
massively significant that I've

607
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,050
made for family that they hugely
appreciate. I knit a hat for my

608
00:36:26,050 --> 00:36:28,030
granddad a couple of years ago
for Christmas that made him

609
00:36:28,030 --> 00:36:31,390
throw up immediately. It was
terrible! A beautiful cashmere

610
00:36:31,390 --> 00:36:33,460
hat but he overheated
straightaway because he couldn't

611
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,890
take it off! And then he threw
up. So I remember that one!

612
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,770
Mia Hobbs: Oh no! Lots of people
have spoken about things they've

613
00:36:42,770 --> 00:36:46,460
made in significant times, like
for example grief has come up

614
00:36:46,460 --> 00:36:53,060
very often. I think for me, it's
often like... I don't know, the

615
00:36:53,060 --> 00:36:56,300
first time I needed a sweater
and actually made something that

616
00:36:56,300 --> 00:36:58,820
fitted me. You know, I knitted a
lot of non-gauge-determined

617
00:37:01,310 --> 00:37:06,050
items at the beginning like
shawls and maybe a hat but

618
00:37:06,050 --> 00:37:09,080
they're kind of stretchy and
more forgiving than a sweater.

619
00:37:10,260 --> 00:37:12,150
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I can't even
remember the last time I made a

620
00:37:12,150 --> 00:37:16,890
sweater, or the first time I
made a sweater that fit. I don't

621
00:37:16,890 --> 00:37:21,210
think I ever tried to make
sweaters that really fit. I

622
00:37:21,210 --> 00:37:24,990
haven't really tried to do that
until I had the shop and I was

623
00:37:24,990 --> 00:37:28,590
leading knit-alongs and things,
and I had to teach other people

624
00:37:29,670 --> 00:37:32,610
that wanted to keep their knits
for some reason [laughs] how to

625
00:37:32,610 --> 00:37:33,420
make it fit.

626
00:37:34,110 --> 00:37:38,430
Mia Hobbs: Have you not kept
even sweaters for yourself?

627
00:37:39,230 --> 00:37:41,180
Milli Abrams: No, I don't keep
them. They're all shop samples.

628
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:45,680
I get to wear them, so I'll wear
them home or they might sit in

629
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:48,020
my wardrobe for a weekend when
I'm at home and then I'll wash

630
00:37:48,020 --> 00:37:49,970
them and take them back to the
shop and they'll be a shop

631
00:37:49,970 --> 00:37:53,300
sample. I don't tend to have my
own. Everything really belongs

632
00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:55,340
to the shop and then I borrow
them.

633
00:37:58,790 --> 00:38:01,610
Mia Hobbs: So you've got a
never-ending stream of new

634
00:38:01,610 --> 00:38:03,320
things to wear for a weekend!

635
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,720
Milli Abrams: I have, yeah! As
long as I'm organised enough to

636
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,360
remember to take it home from
the shop that night, which is

637
00:38:09,540 --> 00:38:11,640
great for the shawls and things
for some of them are quite

638
00:38:11,670 --> 00:38:16,680
dressy. So yeah, I've got like a
big tickle trunk of possible

639
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,370
knits at the shop that I can
borrow whenever I want to. But

640
00:38:20,670 --> 00:38:24,720
we've recently moved to a boat,
and again, I don't have very

641
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:27,660
much wardrobe space. So yes, I
just use the shop as a wardrobe

642
00:38:27,660 --> 00:38:28,050
space.

643
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,790
Mia Hobbs: Perfect! And you can
keep on knitting. You don't have

644
00:38:32,790 --> 00:38:35,820
to feel guilty when your
wardrobe is full!

645
00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:39,560
Milli Abrams: Yeah! And in
Canada, whenever I knit, I used

646
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,700
to give all the stuff to my
mates and then I'd borrow it

647
00:38:43,700 --> 00:38:46,010
back when I was like, "Oh, I
really want the... you know".

648
00:38:46,010 --> 00:38:49,010
And we all lived fairly close to
one another, so I'd just nip by

649
00:38:49,010 --> 00:38:52,880
and grab that jumper back for
whatever reason. And we sort of

650
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,490
just shared all my knits, I
suppose. I just never kept them

651
00:38:55,490 --> 00:38:58,790
at our home. So yeah, I like
that about knitting.

652
00:38:59,710 --> 00:39:03,250
Mia Hobbs: Does it bother you if
people don't... Some people I've

653
00:39:04,150 --> 00:39:06,760
spoken to have said, "There's
certain people I WOULD knit for

654
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,750
because they kind of get it"
like a) how many hours went into

655
00:39:10,750 --> 00:39:16,540
that; b) how to look after it
properly if it's wool or

656
00:39:16,540 --> 00:39:19,690
something like that, don't just
felt it the first time you wash

657
00:39:19,690 --> 00:39:22,840
it. [Laughs] Does that bother
you or will you literally set

658
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,450
them free into the world and
don't think about them again?

659
00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:29,860
Milli Abrams: I won't make
something for someone that's

660
00:39:29,860 --> 00:39:33,850
asked for something, if they
don't know what it is they're

661
00:39:33,850 --> 00:39:38,620
asking for. And people are
always asking, and I'll get

662
00:39:38,620 --> 00:39:42,490
messages on Instagram or
whatever from friend, "Can you

663
00:39:42,490 --> 00:39:44,890
make my wife one of those or
whatever?" And I'll be like,

664
00:39:45,550 --> 00:39:50,140
"No. I mean, I could but it's
going to cost you £600. That's

665
00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:50,710
my time."

666
00:39:51,670 --> 00:39:54,670
Mia Hobbs: Well, that's cheap!
You've not given yourself a

667
00:39:54,670 --> 00:39:55,870
decent hourly rate, Milli!
[Laughs]

668
00:39:55,870 --> 00:39:57,700
Milli Abrams: Well, that is
cheap! [Laughs]

669
00:39:57,700 --> 00:39:58,180
Mia Hobbs: And the yarn!

670
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,940
Milli Abrams: So no, I don't
make stuff for people that don't

671
00:40:00,970 --> 00:40:03,340
get it. If they really get it
and they really want it, then

672
00:40:03,340 --> 00:40:06,940
absolutely, I'll make it for
them. And if I know that they're

673
00:40:06,940 --> 00:40:09,850
not going to look after it, and
they've asked for it, then they

674
00:40:09,850 --> 00:40:12,460
won't get it. But generally, if
it's something that I was making

675
00:40:12,460 --> 00:40:16,240
anyway, and someone's said that
they'd quite like it, then they

676
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:19,120
can have it and there's no
questions asked. I will mention

677
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:20,770
to them that they shouldn't
chuck it in the washing machine

678
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,010
or they won't be able to wear it
very much. But then if it's

679
00:40:24,250 --> 00:40:27,400
theirs, and it's gone, I don't
even think about it again I

680
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:28,930
think. You know, after it's
gone, it's gone.

681
00:40:30,070 --> 00:40:31,390
Mia Hobbs: Do you knit quite
fast?

682
00:40:31,810 --> 00:40:35,530
Milli Abrams: Very fast. Yeah,
I'm extremely fast. Recently

683
00:40:35,530 --> 00:40:38,020
we've had people in the shop...
Because I've not been on the

684
00:40:38,020 --> 00:40:40,900
shop floor as much, I've been
back in the office or downstairs

685
00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:43,300
in the back or wherever, and
I've heard people say (or the

686
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:46,330
girls have said that another
person said) "Does Milli really

687
00:40:46,330 --> 00:40:49,330
knit all those knits or does she
have like an army of minions in

688
00:40:49,330 --> 00:40:52,780
the background making the
stuff?" I knit all my knits

689
00:40:52,780 --> 00:40:55,510
myself. It's important for me to
experience all of the yarn

690
00:40:55,510 --> 00:41:01,270
myself, but I am very fast. And
I'm small, so I make the smaller

691
00:41:01,270 --> 00:41:04,510
size [laughs] which really
helps!

692
00:41:04,540 --> 00:41:07,510
Mia Hobbs: But don't you seem
from Instagram to have produced

693
00:41:07,510 --> 00:41:10,810
knits that look great on a whole
number of family members as

694
00:41:10,810 --> 00:41:11,020
well?

695
00:41:11,950 --> 00:41:14,110
Milli Abrams: The shawls! The
shawls fit everyone.

696
00:41:14,110 --> 00:41:16,060
Mia Hobbs: Are they all shawls?
Have I not seen sweaters on Indy

697
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,630
Milli Abrams: Oh I do do that! I
do make my son wear... yeah, I

698
00:41:16,060 --> 00:41:16,090
or...?

699
00:41:19,630 --> 00:41:21,550
mean, they are small for him. He
didn't go out wearing them.

700
00:41:22,390 --> 00:41:24,160
Mia Hobbs: He's very tolerant of
it!

701
00:41:24,750 --> 00:41:27,660
Milli Abrams: Oh he's amazing.
He'll do whatever I ask him to

702
00:41:27,660 --> 00:41:33,900
do. He doesn't really care what
anyone thinks. He'll just do

703
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,500
whatever he wants. But I will
quite often put it on him

704
00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:40,200
because I want to see what the
shoulders or the neckline might

705
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,230
look like on a man, or how it'll
fit if you haven't got boobs, or

706
00:41:43,230 --> 00:41:47,940
what that colour might look like
on someone else, or does a very

707
00:41:47,940 --> 00:41:50,820
soft mohair look alright on a
bloke that's got a beard, that

708
00:41:50,820 --> 00:41:54,510
kind of thing. So yeah, I will
make the family try... you know,

709
00:41:54,510 --> 00:41:57,150
my dad will try on a lot of my
stuff. My dad loves trying

710
00:41:57,750 --> 00:42:00,990
things on for me and he quite
often gets them. He's got loads

711
00:42:00,990 --> 00:42:03,150
of my knits in his wardrobe, but
I never see him actually wear

712
00:42:03,150 --> 00:42:05,850
them after the first time. So I
should really take them back

713
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:11,430
[laughs] and give them to
someone else. But they are

714
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:16,980
small. I do knit oversize arms.
I like really long arms. Maybe

715
00:42:16,980 --> 00:42:18,180
that's why they get away with
it.

716
00:42:19,290 --> 00:42:20,400
Mia Hobbs: You like to wear
them?

717
00:42:20,850 --> 00:42:24,360
Milli Abrams: I like to wear
overly long sleeves.

718
00:42:25,860 --> 00:42:28,920
Mia Hobbs: I always end with
asking: what's the greatest gift

719
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,380
that knitting has given you for
the rest of your life?

720
00:42:34,110 --> 00:42:39,720
Milli Abrams: It's very
important. I think it's probably

721
00:42:39,720 --> 00:42:41,580
added several years to my life.

722
00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:44,750
Milli Abrams: Just in the
calming and, you know, not being

723
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,910
Mia Hobbs: In what way
specifically, do you think?

724
00:42:44,819 --> 00:42:49,325
frazzled and stressed and giving
myself a stress-induced disease,

725
00:42:49,394 --> 00:42:53,138
I think. All that time where
people think it's wasted,

726
00:42:53,207 --> 00:42:57,297
knitting, it's probably not.
It's probably adding that much

727
00:42:57,366 --> 00:43:01,803
time and then some at the end of
your life, you know? It's not a

728
00:43:01,872 --> 00:43:06,239
waste of time. And I think the
biggest, biggest gift is that it

729
00:43:06,309 --> 00:43:10,676
makes me a much easier person to
be around and to live with for

730
00:43:10,745 --> 00:43:14,835
my family, because I'm not
totally frazzled all the time if

731
00:43:14,905 --> 00:43:19,133
I've got my knitting. And they
get some downtime from me. I'm

732
00:43:19,202 --> 00:43:23,639
very A Type. I'm always needing
things to do because I can't sit

733
00:43:23,708 --> 00:43:28,145
still. But it gives them a break
to just sit and chill when they

734
00:43:28,214 --> 00:43:32,790
know that I'm not going to
bother them because I'm in my knitting.

735
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,880
Mia Hobbs: So it does sound like
it really has a regulating kind

736
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,980
of function for you.

737
00:43:40,010 --> 00:43:43,940
Milli Abrams: Massively. And I
notice it very much if I have

738
00:43:43,940 --> 00:43:47,000
not picked up my needles that
day or for a couple of days. I

739
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,520
feel like I really need some
time, and I'm just going to grab

740
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,740
my needles and just be.

741
00:43:51,330 --> 00:43:54,756
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. I feel like I
can feel it physically as well,

742
00:43:54,823 --> 00:43:58,720
that I need to kind of have...
My grandma used to slightly

743
00:43:58,787 --> 00:44:02,482
sneakily still smoke and think
we didn't know about it.

744
00:44:02,550 --> 00:44:06,379
[Laughs] It was almost like
after she'd eaten her dinner,

745
00:44:06,446 --> 00:44:10,410
she'd get a bit agitated and
feel like she needed to smoke.

746
00:44:10,477 --> 00:44:13,770
And I've felt exactly the same
about my knitting.

747
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,490
Milli Abrams: Absolutely.
There's times where you just

748
00:44:18,490 --> 00:44:21,430
feel a bit antsy and a bit up,
and you're just like, "Right,

749
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,790
let's just go sit over there,
grab some knitting and just calm

750
00:44:24,790 --> 00:44:28,060
down for a while." So I think
that's the greatest, greatest

751
00:44:28,060 --> 00:44:33,100
gift, that you've got a tool
that allows you to have instant

752
00:44:33,100 --> 00:44:36,250
stress relief, and you can take
it anywhere you go, and it makes

753
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,250
a lot of the more stressful
times in your life, like sitting

754
00:44:39,250 --> 00:44:42,490
in traffic (not when you're
driving, obviously) or waiting

755
00:44:42,490 --> 00:44:45,820
for something where you can just
get more and more riled up. It

756
00:44:45,820 --> 00:44:48,520
makes those times the complete
opposite of what they would have

757
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:54,070
been, which I think is huge. I
don't know how people cope! I

758
00:44:54,070 --> 00:44:55,750
don't know how people live that
don't have the knitting.

759
00:44:57,130 --> 00:45:01,600
Mia Hobbs: I did end up doing a
lot of waiting for hospital

760
00:45:01,630 --> 00:45:06,130
appointments a few years ago,
sometimes three hours in this

761
00:45:06,130 --> 00:45:08,740
particular department that I had
to go back to a couple of times,

762
00:45:08,740 --> 00:45:11,800
and everybody else had their
phones and they'd by the end run

763
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,280
out of phone battery. And I was
knitting and I thought, "Next

764
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,800
time I come here, if I have to
come back, I'm bringing extra

765
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:19,990
yarn and needles!" because there
were people who were then

766
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,630
striking up conversation about
my knitting, because I was the

767
00:45:22,630 --> 00:45:25,030
only one doing anything other
than on their phone, which I

768
00:45:25,030 --> 00:45:27,250
think makes people look
unapproachable, I guess, if

769
00:45:27,250 --> 00:45:30,460
they're looking down at a phone.
And they were asking me about

770
00:45:30,460 --> 00:45:32,950
it. And I felt so lucky!

771
00:45:33,770 --> 00:45:35,360
Milli Abrams: Well, because the
other thing that makes you more

772
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,640
approachable, I think, as a
knitter and as a social knitter,

773
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,760
if you're someone that has
anxiety about social settings

774
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,610
and new people, is that when
you've got your knitting you can

775
00:45:43,610 --> 00:45:47,750
have a really good mix of eye
contact with people and then an

776
00:45:47,750 --> 00:45:51,350
excuse to break your eye contact
in a non-awkward way. So you've

777
00:45:51,350 --> 00:45:53,780
always got your knitting that
you can look down at, but you

778
00:45:53,780 --> 00:45:56,330
can also look up and maintain
decent eye contact. There's no

779
00:45:56,330 --> 00:46:00,440
pressure or awkward social
pressure to keep looking at the

780
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,810
person that you're interacting
with. So I think that's also why

781
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:10,310
a lot of people that have that
awkwardness, it's good for them

782
00:46:10,310 --> 00:46:12,200
when they've got their knitting
and they feel like they can

783
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,230
approach you more, because you
haven't got to be that intense

784
00:46:15,230 --> 00:46:18,110
with them because you're already
doing something. And it's not

785
00:46:18,110 --> 00:46:19,880
like, you know, when you're
reading a book, you don't want

786
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,980
to approach that person because
they've got to be looking at

787
00:46:21,980 --> 00:46:24,230
their book to continue what
they're doing. But you can talk

788
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:25,100
to someone that's knitting.

789
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,600
Mia Hobbs: And I certainly find
my concentration... I have a

790
00:46:29,890 --> 00:46:33,940
very flighty concentration span,
I suppose. Like if I'm sitting

791
00:46:33,940 --> 00:46:36,700
in a busy waiting room, I
wouldn't be able to really focus

792
00:46:36,700 --> 00:46:39,910
on a book, I don't think, or on
a bus. Whereas I totally could

793
00:46:39,910 --> 00:46:45,340
knit. But I wouldn't have enough
focus to just read, I don't

794
00:46:45,340 --> 00:46:45,520
think.

795
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,850
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I'm either
not into the book enough, and

796
00:46:50,850 --> 00:46:53,100
I'm not focused because I'm
concentrating on other stuff and

797
00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:56,940
have to listen for my stop, or
I'm so into my book that I'm

798
00:46:56,940 --> 00:47:04,590
going to miss my stop. But when
I used to get on my little bus

799
00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:07,770
in the Caribbean, that took me
down to a boat, that was fine. I

800
00:47:07,770 --> 00:47:12,330
could read because everyone else
on the bus would tell me when it

801
00:47:12,330 --> 00:47:16,650
was time to get off at the next
stop! [Laughs] And that's fine.

802
00:47:16,650 --> 00:47:19,440
I used to really get into a book
then. But that's...

803
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:25,080
Mia Hobbs: That's not going to
happen in London. [Laughs]

804
00:47:25,860 --> 00:47:27,480
Milli Abrams: I mean, I guess
you could ask the person next to

805
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,170
you, "Can you just tap me when
it's such-and-such stop?" But we

806
00:47:31,170 --> 00:47:31,830
don't do that, do we?

807
00:47:32,100 --> 00:47:36,570
Mia Hobbs: No, we don't.  We
should be more Caribbean in our

808
00:47:36,570 --> 00:47:39,900
attitude! You wouldn't see the
same people every day, that's

809
00:47:39,900 --> 00:47:40,380
for sure.

810
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:41,700
Milli Abrams: No, no.

811
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,440
Mia Hobbs: Interesting that you
said the more senior you got,

812
00:47:48,500 --> 00:47:53,270
the more possible it felt to
knit during meetings to help you

813
00:47:53,270 --> 00:47:57,320
concentrate. And certainly I've
found that as well. But now I

814
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,600
feel like I have more
confidence. And I think it's

815
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,620
helps that some stuff is over
Zoom. I just don't believe

816
00:48:03,620 --> 00:48:06,440
humans are designed to sit down
and do a six hour training

817
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,210
course and not move!

818
00:48:08,210 --> 00:48:08,480
Milli Abrams: No! Not at all.

819
00:48:08,780 --> 00:48:12,050
Mia Hobbs: And I feel like if I
knit, it's the perfect level of:

820
00:48:12,050 --> 00:48:15,890
my hands are busy and my brain
is available for concentrating.

821
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,970
Whereas if I wasn't doing that,
I feel like my brain might

822
00:48:19,970 --> 00:48:23,360
freelance onto something even
more distracting, and then

823
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,880
actually draw my concentration
away from what I'm supposed to

824
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:26,630
be focusing on.

825
00:48:27,110 --> 00:48:29,630
Milli Abrams: It's like
doodling, isn't it? It's like a

826
00:48:29,630 --> 00:48:34,250
form of doodling. But you end up
with an actual 3D possibly

827
00:48:34,250 --> 00:48:35,900
useful thing at the end of it.

828
00:48:36,980 --> 00:48:41,030
Mia Hobbs: You described
yourself as a Type A person. How

829
00:48:41,030 --> 00:48:45,500
much does having something
tangible that you've created add

830
00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:48,260
to the appeal of knitting? You
said you like to finish things.

831
00:48:48,260 --> 00:48:51,830
Do you get a certain sense of
achievement from... I guess lots

832
00:48:51,830 --> 00:48:53,900
of the things we do are on a
screen and you can't really see

833
00:48:53,900 --> 00:48:57,080
your progress. You've done a
day's work, but it's not really

834
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,700
visible. Whereas with knitting
you have a thing you can show

835
00:49:01,700 --> 00:49:02,060
and feel and touch.

836
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,750
Milli Abrams: You have a thing,
yeah. And there's a beginning

837
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:08,300
and an end. I think, for me,
that's more important than

838
00:49:08,300 --> 00:49:10,310
actually having the thing,
because I don't ever really want

839
00:49:10,430 --> 00:49:14,960
the thing. But I like that
there's a finite end to a thing

840
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,080
and you can finish an actual
project and it's gone. I think,

841
00:49:18,170 --> 00:49:20,720
in my experience with knitting
and all the people around me

842
00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:28,820
that knit, it seems to be a more
male need, maybe, or more

843
00:49:28,820 --> 00:49:32,570
important from an actual
creating point of view and

844
00:49:32,570 --> 00:49:35,900
having a thing that you've
sculpted and made. That seems to

845
00:49:36,650 --> 00:49:39,560
make the boys... I've noticed
that they have a lot more

846
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:45,770
satisfaction about having the
final piece, about the creation.

847
00:49:46,490 --> 00:49:49,130
I mean, women do too but it's
very much more noticeable with

848
00:49:49,130 --> 00:49:51,980
guys - that they've got like a
thing that they've made. For me,

849
00:49:51,980 --> 00:49:56,210
it's more the beginning of it. I
genuinely get the same pleasure

850
00:49:56,210 --> 00:49:59,090
out of a really great
spreadsheet. [Laughs] I love a

851
00:49:59,090 --> 00:50:03,230
spreadsheet! Whenever I've got
one that I've 'birthed', and

852
00:50:03,230 --> 00:50:05,780
then it's finished and it's
magnificent, then I love that

853
00:50:05,780 --> 00:50:10,190
too. And that's not a tangible
thing, so I know that for me it

854
00:50:10,190 --> 00:50:13,910
doesn't have to be something I
can hold. But I like that

855
00:50:13,910 --> 00:50:14,480
there's an ending.

856
00:50:15,710 --> 00:50:18,830
Mia Hobbs: I think one of the
things we talk about, like when

857
00:50:18,830 --> 00:50:21,380
we're using knitting for people
who are maybe struggling with

858
00:50:21,380 --> 00:50:25,460
low mood or something, we talk
about having two types of tasks

859
00:50:25,460 --> 00:50:28,130
that are helpful: something
that's intrinsically enjoyable,

860
00:50:28,130 --> 00:50:30,440
and something that gives you a
sense of achievement. So even if

861
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,530
I tidied my desk or my
workspace, that might not be fun

862
00:50:33,530 --> 00:50:36,770
for me but I could look at it
and think, "Oh, well done me. I

863
00:50:36,770 --> 00:50:42,200
did that." But I guess knitting
gives you both, and it's harder

864
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:45,650
to deny progress if you can see
it and hold it in your hand.

865
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:49,980
Milli Abrams: Yeah! And a new
learned technique. That's hugely

866
00:50:49,980 --> 00:50:54,210
satisfying, when you're learning
something a lot of the time, or

867
00:50:52,380 --> 00:51:07,260
Mia Hobbs: So you're someone who
likes the uncharted new

868
00:50:54,210 --> 00:50:56,070
you're coming across a new
colour combo. Do you know, one

869
00:50:56,070 --> 00:50:58,290
of the really cool things in the
shop is when we willl get a

870
00:50:58,290 --> 00:51:00,330
bunch of customers and someone
will put a yarn down on the

871
00:51:00,330 --> 00:51:02,670
counter that they want, and
someone else puts another yarn

872
00:51:02,670 --> 00:51:05,130
down on the counter, and they
happen to be next to each other

873
00:51:05,130 --> 00:51:07,920
and you just think, "Wow! I
never would have put those

874
00:51:07,410 --> 00:51:18,060
territory, aren't you? In the
colour combos, but also in the

875
00:51:07,950 --> 00:51:10,980
colours together, but wow!" I
love that.

876
00:51:18,060 --> 00:51:20,400
techniques. That's a driver for
you.

877
00:51:20,570 --> 00:51:23,270
Milli Abrams: The learning,
yeah, and I think that's really

878
00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:27,200
important as well. There's
different types of people.

879
00:51:27,230 --> 00:51:29,420
There's some people that are the
perfectionists and they have to

880
00:51:29,420 --> 00:51:31,460
get it right, and they need the
finished article, and that's

881
00:51:31,460 --> 00:51:34,400
where they derive their sense of
achievement and enjoyment. And

882
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,270
there's others that are process
driven, like me, and then

883
00:51:38,270 --> 00:51:41,030
there's people where we just
want to constantly be changing

884
00:51:41,030 --> 00:51:46,040
and learning and moving and
that's who I am. And I  think

885
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,110
it's really good for... don't
they say it's great for

886
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,730
cognitive function and the
ageing brain, if you can keep

887
00:51:52,730 --> 00:51:57,590
learning and keep introducing
new skills and rebuilding in all

888
00:51:57,590 --> 00:51:58,340
those pathways.

889
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,940
Mia Hobbs: Yeah! And I guess if
you think about your past, you

890
00:52:00,940 --> 00:52:04,480
didn't get to be... was it
CFO?... and work with Richard

891
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,840
Branson, unless you were a
high-achieving, ambitious

892
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,990
person. And I guess all of that
drive is in you somewhere, and

893
00:52:10,990 --> 00:52:14,530
it's going in your knitting and
learning new techniques.

894
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,108
Milli Abrams: Yeah, there is
that but also, as an accountant,

895
00:52:17,163 --> 00:52:20,467
I'm the very outside of the
box... you know, creative... I'm

896
00:52:20,522 --> 00:52:23,992
not a creative accountant in the
bad sense, but I am an outside

897
00:52:24,047 --> 00:52:27,296
the box accountant that is
driven... I'll look at different

898
00:52:27,352 --> 00:52:30,656
things with performance, and
holistically as a business as a

899
00:52:30,711 --> 00:52:34,126
whole. So my style of accounting
really worked for him in that

900
00:52:34,181 --> 00:52:37,430
business, and the way that I
will lead a team is like that.

901
00:52:37,485 --> 00:52:40,734
And it is also the way that I
approach my knitting. Whereas

902
00:52:40,789 --> 00:52:43,929
Darren, my husband, is an
accountant but he's a much more

903
00:52:43,984 --> 00:52:47,178
detail-driven in-the-weeds
accountant, and he doesn't have

904
00:52:47,233 --> 00:52:50,703
an interest in knitting things
and wouldn't know where to start

905
00:52:50,758 --> 00:52:53,676
with creating a project or
chucking colours together,

906
00:52:53,732 --> 00:52:56,926
because that's not who he is.
Actually it would stress him

907
00:52:56,981 --> 00:53:00,230
out. I sometimes say, "What do
you think of this colour and

908
00:53:00,285 --> 00:53:03,480
this colour?" and he's just
like, "What?! I don't even..."

909
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:07,740
Mia Hobbs: But that creativity
is a driver for you?

910
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,390
Milli Abrams: Yeah, the
creativity's a driver for me but

911
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:13,030
I recognise that with some
people, unless they've got the

912
00:53:13,030 --> 00:53:15,970
formula and the pattern and it's
written out, and the

913
00:53:15,970 --> 00:53:18,490
predictability of how the
colours will work, they'll get

914
00:53:18,490 --> 00:53:21,970
really stressed out about it.
But once that bit is taken care

915
00:53:21,970 --> 00:53:28,750
of, then they find it equally
enjoyable to sit and knit.

916
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:30,790
Mia Hobbs: And actually, that's
amazing, isn't it? That knitting

917
00:53:30,790 --> 00:53:34,210
could be a great task for both
different types of people with

918
00:53:34,210 --> 00:53:37,840
very different... cognitive
needs, we could call it, I

919
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,680
suppose. The fact that you can
get your needs met in your way,

920
00:53:41,740 --> 00:53:42,880
being more creative.

921
00:53:43,620 --> 00:53:47,190
Milli Abrams: Yeah, so that's
very interesting. And that's why

922
00:53:47,190 --> 00:53:51,810
I think that it's so good at
bringing together all the

923
00:53:51,810 --> 00:53:55,080
different types of people. You
don't have to be a particular

924
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,410
type of person to enjoy
knitting; you can pretty much be

925
00:53:58,410 --> 00:54:02,610
any background and any type and
your brain can work in any way.

926
00:54:02,610 --> 00:54:05,490
You could be someone that has to
be predictable and methodical,

927
00:54:05,820 --> 00:54:09,570
or someone that likes the chaos
like I do. Actually, I like the

928
00:54:09,570 --> 00:54:12,000
chaos but then I really like the
order and the maths side of

929
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,330
knitting. So yeah, it all works.

930
00:54:14,460 --> 00:54:19,860
Mia Hobbs: You're running Knit
Nites, aren't you, at Tribe?

931
00:54:16,290 --> 00:54:23,100
Milli Abrams: Yeah. At the
minute they're virtual.

932
00:54:23,430 --> 00:54:25,110
Mia Hobbs: But they were in
person for a while, weren't

933
00:54:25,110 --> 00:54:25,230
they?

934
00:54:25,230 --> 00:54:25,560
Milli Abrams: They were.

935
00:54:26,310 --> 00:54:27,930
Mia Hobbs: Is there anything
that surprises you about the

936
00:54:27,930 --> 00:54:30,810
conversations that come up, that
feels different about the kind

937
00:54:30,810 --> 00:54:33,360
of conversations people have
while their knitting, compared

938
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:37,230
to if people were in a pub or a
restaurant or...?

939
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,630
Milli Abrams: I mean, we talk a
lot more about yarns and

940
00:54:41,620 --> 00:54:43,690
patterns and things! [Laughs]

941
00:54:43,690 --> 00:54:45,220
Mia Hobbs: Yeah sure. I guess
many of the people don't know

942
00:54:45,220 --> 00:54:47,140
each other? Or do they? Before
they come?

943
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,880
Milli Abrams: Yeah. It's a lot
easier to sit in a group when

944
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,640
you've got your knitting, than
say if you're all sat there in a

945
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:57,980
circle with nothing but each
other! And we get new people all

946
00:54:57,980 --> 00:55:02,090
the time. Every week we've got
at least one new person, and

947
00:55:02,750 --> 00:55:07,010
that's great. We've all got
something that unites us all,

948
00:55:07,010 --> 00:55:10,130
but we all recognise that we're
extremely different. And on our

949
00:55:10,130 --> 00:55:12,050
virtual Knit Nites we're global.
We're all over the world. We've

950
00:55:12,050 --> 00:55:16,640
got people in Finland and
Australia and the States and

951
00:55:17,030 --> 00:55:21,350
Portugal and from all over the
place in different time zones on

952
00:55:21,350 --> 00:55:26,660
this one call, and that's nice.
We're all knitting very

953
00:55:26,660 --> 00:55:29,810
different things in different
colours, and we can all

954
00:55:29,810 --> 00:55:32,390
appreciate what the other
person's making.

955
00:55:33,140 --> 00:55:35,360
Mia Hobbs: I think that's
another thing, you know, you

956
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,550
were talking about the idea of
being able to regulate your eye

957
00:55:37,550 --> 00:55:40,100
contact when you're knitting. I
guess the other thing is you do

958
00:55:40,100 --> 00:55:42,800
just have an automatic topic of
conversation, even with

959
00:55:42,830 --> 00:55:48,260
non-knitters when they talk to
you on a bus or something. It's

960
00:55:48,290 --> 00:55:52,160
in a way less awkward. They can
ask you about your knitting

961
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:52,430
or...

962
00:55:53,090 --> 00:55:54,860
Milli Abrams: It's like having a
cute baby. I mean that's when

963
00:55:55,790 --> 00:55:58,610
you've always got people that
will come and talk to you if

964
00:55:58,610 --> 00:55:59,960
you've got a cute dog or a baby.

965
00:56:00,410 --> 00:56:01,280
Mia Hobbs: Yes, this is true.
[Laughs]

966
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,220
Milli Abrams: It is kind of like
that. For ages we were thought

967
00:56:04,220 --> 00:56:07,310
of as really weird. I was a
closet knitter for a very long

968
00:56:07,310 --> 00:56:12,470
time in my childhood, because it
was not cool to be knitting. You

969
00:56:12,950 --> 00:56:18,110
didn't tell anyone that you did
it. But it is cool now! It's

970
00:56:18,110 --> 00:56:20,570
kind of fine. It's a little bit
fringe, but it's fine.

971
00:56:21,740 --> 00:56:24,110
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I was
certainly... I mean I didn't

972
00:56:24,140 --> 00:56:27,170
always knit. Sometimes I was
doing other things like cross

973
00:56:27,170 --> 00:56:29,750
stitch, and I don't think I
realised how much I needed it

974
00:56:29,750 --> 00:56:34,550
for my mental wellbeing. But I
would always get my revision

975
00:56:34,550 --> 00:56:36,710
done quite early, and then the
night before exams I'd be

976
00:56:36,710 --> 00:56:40,190
secretly in my bedroom cross
stitching. Because obviously, if

977
00:56:40,190 --> 00:56:42,620
you did that openly, people
would be annoyed at you that

978
00:56:42,620 --> 00:56:45,020
you'd finished revising, but I
just get to the point where I'm

979
00:56:45,020 --> 00:56:48,560
done. Psychologically, I can't
cram any more into this brain.

980
00:56:48,950 --> 00:56:51,590
Now I'm doing something else.
But I feel like it almost opened

981
00:56:51,590 --> 00:56:55,370
a different trapdoor in my mind,
that doing something rhythmical

982
00:56:55,370 --> 00:56:58,250
with my hands allowed the
revision to percolate in a way,

983
00:56:58,730 --> 00:56:59,210
I felt.

984
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:03,350
Milli Abrams: Yeah, definitely.
And it was a reward for me as

985
00:57:03,350 --> 00:57:07,310
well. I'd get a whole bunch of
revision done, and then allow

986
00:57:07,310 --> 00:57:10,580
myself to go knit a few more
line, because it was just so

987
00:57:10,580 --> 00:57:18,170
good. I know some people would
reward themselves with cake or a

988
00:57:18,170 --> 00:57:22,760
cigarette or something, but
knitting's a super healthy way

989
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,920
of rewarding yourself, I guess,
with hindsight.

990
00:57:25,380 --> 00:57:28,050
Mia Hobbs: I relearnt, actually.
My mum insisted I learnt when I

991
00:57:28,050 --> 00:57:31,350
started my doctorate in Clinical
Psychology, because she thought

992
00:57:31,350 --> 00:57:34,590
it was a good thing to do. And
it did turn out to be the

993
00:57:34,590 --> 00:57:36,840
perfect thing for revision
breaks. I was knitting a big

994
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,740
shawl, so they had rows, and you
could do a row or two rows, and

995
00:57:40,740 --> 00:57:44,580
then there's a finite end to
your break. And then you go back

996
00:57:44,580 --> 00:57:45,300
to the books.

997
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,170
Milli Abrams: Yeah. You do have
to be disciplined enough to say,

998
00:57:49,620 --> 00:57:51,180
"I'm not going to just do one
more row."

999
00:57:52,050 --> 00:57:53,430
Mia Hobbs: Or when you're
knitting in the round, it's even

1000
00:57:53,430 --> 00:57:59,880
harder. [Laughs] The rows are
less finite. Well, Milli, it has

1001
00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:03,030
been an absolute pleasure to
talk to you. Thank you so much

1002
00:58:03,090 --> 00:58:06,750
for joining me on the podcast.
If people want to find out more

1003
00:58:06,750 --> 00:58:10,590
about you or Tribe, how would
they find out more?

1004
00:58:12,670 --> 00:58:15,280
Milli Abrams: Probably through
the Tribe Yarns website:

1005
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,940
www.tribeyarns.com. And then I
do send out a newsletter, which

1006
00:58:18,940 --> 00:58:23,950
tends to be long and has a lot
in it, but I only do that once

1007
00:58:23,950 --> 00:58:26,080
every month or every six weeks.
I'm not very good at sending

1008
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:30,580
that more often than that. So
subscribe to the newsletter. And

1009
00:58:30,580 --> 00:58:32,860
follow me on Instagram
@tribeyarnslife where there's

1010
00:58:32,950 --> 00:58:34,870
always lots of pictures of me
and my family.

1011
00:58:36,010 --> 00:58:37,060
Mia Hobbs: In beautiful
Richmond!

1012
00:58:45,550 --> 00:58:48,640
Thank you so much for listening
to the Why I Knit podcast. If

1013
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:50,770
you'd like to find out more
about therapeutic knitting, you

1014
00:58:50,770 --> 00:58:54,730
can follow me on Instagram
@knittingistherapeutic, or at my

1015
00:58:54,730 --> 00:58:57,340
website:
www.therapeuticknitting.org. If

1016
00:58:57,340 --> 00:58:59,620
you're enjoying the podcast, I
would really appreciate it if

1017
00:58:59,620 --> 00:59:03,220
you could leave a rating and a
review on your podcast app. This

1018
00:59:03,220 --> 00:59:05,650
will help grow the podcast and
let more people know about the

1019
00:59:05,650 --> 00:59:08,230
therapeutic benefits of
knitting. And don't forget to

1020
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:09,760
subscribe too. Thank you!