Mia Hobbs: Hello, and welcome back to series two of the Why I
Knit podcast. My name is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical
psychologist who's passionate about knitting and its benefits
for our mental wellbeing. Each episode I interview a different
knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental
health. This week on the podcast, I'm joined by Milli
Abrams, who is the owner of Tribe Yarns, a yarn shop in
Richmond, London. Milli has a qualification in Applied Colour
Psychology so I particularly wanted to ask her more about
this and about how colour can impact on mental health.
Unfortunately, there is a crackle on Milli's end of the
audio, which we were unable to resolve while we were recording.
However, Milli is such an inspiring and interesting guest
that I'm sure you'll still really enjoy this interview.
Hi Milli, welcome to the podcast.
Milli Abrams: Hello.
Mia Hobbs: I always start by asking where your story with
knitting began.
Milli Abrams: Okay, that's a relatively easy one, I guess. I
was about six or seven years old when I started knitting. My mum
used to knit and she introduced it to me over a summer holiday
and I pretty much got addicted straightaway. And I was the sort
of child that never really sat down. You know, I was always a
bit ants-in-my-pants, climbing trees and that kind of thing.
And so I guess it was as much of a surprise to her as it was to
me that I loved it. And I got obsessed and I ended up blowing
out all of my playdates with friends outside. I was like,
"No, I'm at home knitting." I was determined to get it done.
Mia Hobbs: Oh wow! So you absolutely went with it straight
away.
Milli Abrams: Yes, straight away. And to begin with, at
least for the first year, I don't think I could purl at all.
I could only knit. But I really liked stocking stitch. So I
would knit a whole line and then I'd give it to my mom to purl
back. [Laughs] I did eventually get the hang of purling but I
could only do it then for the next little while standing up at
the ironing board, for some reason. I was using crappy
straight needles back then. You know how we had those awful sort
of Aero needles that weighed a little bit too much, I guess.
For my little hands they were quite long, with blunt tips. And
I used to knit way too tight, like really tightly. So I used
to have to use the ironing board to jam the needle into the
stitch.
Mia Hobbs: Oh wow! Yeah, I actually had one of the kids in
the therapeutic knitting group I've been running say to me,
"It's really surprising that grannies knit because you need
so much strength to get this to fit!" . And I thought, "I think
someone's going slightly wrong here, because I don't feel like
I'm using muscles to knit, particularly!" [Laughs]
Milli Abrams: No! And then back then (that would have been in
the early 80s) we all knit with crappy acrylic wools, so it was
really strong.
Mia Hobbs: Oh yeah, it's hard to break. It's harder than wool.
Milli Abrams: Exactly. If I'd have started with a proper wool,
had I been knitting with the tightness and the strength that
I was applying to that acrylic, it would have broken right away,
and I would have realised that it was too tight. But I got away
with it back then.
Mia Hobbs: Okay. And what do you think hooked you in? Because it
sounds like it was a bit of a surprise, if you were quite an
active kid, that you could sit still and knit?
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it was definitely the challenge of it.
But I did feel it was very calming, the repetitive
stitches, and there was something about making and
creating, and then being able to make your own creative choices.
It was a bit like Lego, where you could sort of go your own
way with it, and you could spend hours and hours and hours doing
it and it just felt good. So yeah, I think it was that, and
then RIGHT away I started knitting colourwork and intarsia
and that kind of thing, because that was very early 80s.
Mia Hobbs: That's what I wondered: whether you were
knitting from patterns or whether you were just kind of
knitting scarves.
Milli Abrams: Both. No, I never did scarves in the beginning. I
just did lots of patches of things. And then I made stuff
for dolls, you know, just little things.
Mia Hobbs: Did you kind of make those up as you went along
rather than finding a pattern for them?
Milli Abrams: A little bit, yeah. So I might have had a
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. I guess a lot of us learn a lot of how to
pattern that had a chart for some sort of fair isle motif and
I would have just used that to make some random little thing
for a doll or a teddy bear jumper or something. I didn't
play with teddy bears or anything back then, but I just
wanted to make little things. And I don't think I had enough
yarn to make a big sweater. Then eventually my mum took me to
John Lewis and we picked out a pattern, and that was the
patchwork intarsia and fair isle cardigan. It was very
complicated. But I decided I was going to make that. And then by
the time I'd finished it, I could barely get it on. Because
I was such a tight knitter, it was so small. [Laughs] And I
hadn't appreciated that you had to leave a long enough end to
darn the ends in. So they'd started to pull out, so I
superglued them down, which made it really jabby inside. It was
terrible! It's a horrible little thing. But my mum never knit
intarsia or colourwork. She just used to do plain knitting and
maybe a few cables. So she couldn't really advise me on
that. That was a learning process!
solve problems in knitting through trial and error.
Milli Abrams: Yeah, and back then there wasn't any social
media or any pressure like that. It's not as though we were
comparing ourselves to each other. And no-one I knew knit.
So it was perfectly fine for me to keep making all these
mistakes and not feel like a total failure. It was just
learning.
Mia Hobbs: But I think also now, if you knew what the mistake was
called, you could search on YouTube as to how to fix it, I
suppose. Like when I have a plumbing issue that I feel might
be within my beginner's realm. So you know, a bit like that if
you were a beginner knitter, whereas that didn't exist.
Milli Abrams: No. And I'd definitely say that there is so
much more help. You could Google everything now, with plumbing
and everything. And back then I think we did used to do a bit
more trial and error. It was either that or spend hours and
hours at the library researching something. We used to just try
it, didn't we? With lots of things.
Mia Hobbs: Okay, so did you carry on knitting? So you've
knit fairly regularly since you were six or seven?
Milli Abrams: Yeah, so that would have been 40 years ago.
But no, I definitely had breaks. So there were the chaotic
teenage years when I had exams and things, when I just probably
wouldn't have had time. And yeah, there were times in my
life where I definitely let it go for maybe two or three years
at a time. And they were probably the times when I
shouldn't have let it go and should have made time. You know,
it's always the way, isn't it, when you feel like you haven't
got time to meditate, that's when you should be meditating.
It's the same with knitting. And then I picked it up again, like
PROPERLY properly, when I was pregnant with Indy. He's 18 now,
so that was 18 years ago. And knit every morning before I got
out of bed. I used to get morning sickness, so Darren
would bring me breakfast in bed every morning and I would sit
and knit while he was making breakfast.
Mia Hobbs: Were you knitting for Indy?
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I was knitting booties. Lots of
booties. I had this amazing book of like, I don't know, 100
bootie patterns, but it had lots of different techniques in it.
Mia Hobbs: Oh no! Have you gifted them?
So I was learning something every day with a new knitting
technique, and I was getting to use different colour yarns and
different fibres. I had a whole bag of them and just worked my
way through. I don't know how many booties I made. I must have
made 30 or 40 pairs of different booties while I was pregnant
with him, and I made a big patchwork blanket. But then when
he was born, he had enormous feet and he didn't fit any of
the booties.
Milli Abrams: I gifted all of them and they all fit normal
babies. Indy had giant feet! And only the giant duck feet fit
him. [Laughs]
Mia Hobbs: Aw! I found that I couldn't get booties to stay on
my children!
Milli Abrams: No, they didn't all, which is kind of why I made
them all. Some of them were really good patterns that stayed
on and the others just were sort of there for photos, I suppose.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. So it's been on and
off, but mainly on, certainly on for the last 18 years.
Milli Abrams: Yeah. So when Indy was born, we then emigrated to
Canada when he was eight months old. And it was really cold
there, so I knit lots. And then when he was seven, we moved on
to the boat to go circumnavigate, and I did knit
on the boat as well. Probably not as much.... no maybe I did.
I did, but like different fibres. A lot of silk and cotton
because it's hot. And then we moved to the Caribbean for five
years, and I knit there as well, but lots of lace weight blankets
and that kind of thing.
Mia Hobbs: Okay. Did you feel like the motivation was less? Or
is it not really so much about the final product?
Milli Abrams: It's never been about the final product for me.
It''s never ever been about the final product. I for my whole
life have knit things and then just given them away, almost
immediately. I don't tend to keep any of my knits for myself.
Mia Hobbs: Is it more for the process? Because obviously there
is a joy to giving things to people for the point of giving a
gift, that is more meaningful, but it sounds also a lot of it's
about the process for you.
Milli Abrams: It's the process. It's completely the process,
yeah.
Mia Hobbs: If you were on a desert island with one ball of
brown yarn that you had to re-knit over and over again,
you'd be knitting it.
Milli Abrams: Absolutely. And I had to do that in the Caribbean
all the time, because we couldn't get anything shipped to
us. And it would take months and months. So I would just knit
something, rip it out, knit it again. I did that all the time.
So it is very much process.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And does it matter what you knit? As in the
techniques? Is garter stitch equally valuable to knitting
lace or cables? Or does it matter?
Milli Abrams: I think it depends. It's got to be
something new for me every time. So I very rarely, I think never,
make the second sock, because I've made the sock and I don't
want to make another one. So I almost never make the same thing
twice, unless I'm changing the technique or changing something
up about it. I recently knit two Badger & Bloom sweaters where I
changed the technique quite a lot both times, just to test it
out.
Mia Hobbs: And the colour isn't enough of a change?
Milli Abrams: No, it's not really. I knit for colour... A
lot of the time, it's because of the colour I want to hang out
with, so that will determine what I'm knitting. But it's got
to be something new that I haven't experienced before. It
might be that I have to experience a new fibre. Yeah, I
think it's technique more than anything, though. And it's
weird, after 40 years of doing lots of knitting and learning
all the [inaudible], I'm still discovering new techniques all
the time, which is brilliant. I think that's such a cool thing
about knitting.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, you can't ever run out.
Milli Abrams: No, you can't really. And I do knit things
several times and rip them out, but I've just started a cardigan
yesterday which I will rip out today and start again, because
there's a couple of things I thought of during the night that
I should have done differently. So yeah, I'm fine with ripping
out. So about the gifting: yes, I do knit specifically for
gifts, but no, usually I'm knitting something and then I
think, "Oh, who'd like this? Who would this fit? Who wants it?".
Mia Hobbs: Okay. I'd love to hear more about colour, because
I think you said you've got a qualification in colour...
Milli Abrams: Applied colour psychology.
Mia Hobbs: Applied colour psychology. So I'd love to hear
about that, and your ideas about colour and how it benefits your
mental wellbeing, being around colour. I like the idea of
choosing a colour you want to hang out with! Because I think I
do that with my knitting projects. I have quite a long
relationship with them because I'm not that fast. [Laughs]
Milli Abrams: Colour is very, very important. I didn't know
anything about... I'm an accountant so it wasn't anything
that I'd studied in the early days, but I have an Indian
background so we've always been very experimentative with
colour, with our saris and things. And approaching my 40s,
I suppose... late 30s/40s... I got a bit frustrated with how
sensible people were being around colour and how coy they
Would you do that historically, as well, when you didn't work in
were, and how they were embarrassed about using certain
colours, and that kind of thing. If you walked down the high
street a couple of years ago, all you'd see was grey, khaki,
maybe a little bit of mustard. I couldn't buy the colours that I
wanted from a shop, so I did use knitting to introduce those
colours into my life. But I also realised a long time ago that
certain colours do certain things to my mood, and I can use
that to my advantage. So when I use really, really saturated
bright colours, they will wake me up, so I can use them in the
morning to just really get going, or before a meeting to
get energised, or something like that. Especially during
meetings. So I knit through all my board meetings and things. I
would always knit and I'd always pick a bright colour for that
because it just energised me.
yarn and knitting?
Yeah, absolutely.
Mia Hobbs: And I'm guessing you were the only person doing that!
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I was the only person knitting. And it was
fine. It wasn't fine, right at the beginning when I was a
junior. I'd get told off. But as I became more senior, I could
tell people that it actually helped me focus and they all got
used to it. So I'd sit in a meeting with Branson or whatever
and I'd always be knitting. But I also conversely couldn't pick
up those same colours and knit with them right before bed. I
always knit right before bed, but I can't knit the really
really bright colours under a fairly bright light because they
wake me up and they don't allow me to sort of gently ease down
at the end of the day.
Mia Hobbs: So you need more than one project on the go for
different situations.
Milli Abrams: Yes. Different for colour but also different for
"Do I really want to escape into a very challenging pattern with
lots of charts and things because I need to just not think
about everything right now? Or do I just want something that is
in my hands, and TV knitting, so that I can listen to whatever
I'm listening to?"
Mia Hobbs: That's a really common theme that has come up
again and again, and certainly something I relate very strongly
to. The idea of having to have something complicated to absorb
yourself in when you need to escape from real life, or
something that you could knit while you're listening to your
kids read, that doesn't require any of your brain. And I
certainly would knit through Zoom meetings and training
courses, and have never been anything other than the only
knitter. [Laughs]
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it is weird, isn't it? I found when Indy was
little, you know, when your kids are little and you have to wait
all the time, you've got to wait for them to finish a sports
match or whatever, there's just a lot of waiting in life.
Waiting at the dentist and all these things. And I just found
that if I always had my knitting, I never really minded
the wait. Actually, I quite liked the wait. It was a really
good time for me to just get into my knitting. And I travel a
lot and airport delays were pleasurable, because I had my
knitting with me. And it just meant that I could chill out and
knit, and it didn't matter that the planes was delayed. I don't
know how people that don't knit cope, I honestly don't! I just
don't know how they manage to wait for anything.
Mia Hobbs: I do feel a slight anxiety, I think, if I have to
do something like that, that I don't have my knitting with me
because I've had too many things to think about and it's just not
made it in the bag. But quite often, if I'm going away for a
weekend and getting a train somewhere... The other weekend,
I forgot the dress I was planning to wear out in the
evening, but I had three knitting projects with me.
[Laughs] Because that was my priority, in my head!
Milli Abrams: Definitely.
Mia Hobbs: I don't know whether you learnt about this in the
course you did, about whether there are particular colours
that are more associated with positive or negative mood, or
whether it's not really like that. Whether different people
have different...
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it's a really, really interesting
topic. And it's huge and very deep, so it would take hours to
go over everything. But I guess the main points were... I'm very
into maths, maths is my background, and there are
patterns and wavelengths behind each colour and some colours
harmonise because of the patterns and the waves, and some
colours don't. So that was one of the things that we learnt a
lot about. So, you know, I'm good at putting colours together
and I'm good at avoiding certain colour combinations that are
horrible. And I know that intuitively somewhat, I guess,
from practising a lot, but also because of the maths behind the
colour. So there's that. There's the colours that people should
and shouldn't wear... well, it's not really a should... it's the
colours that suit people more than the colours that don't. So
that was also part of the course. And that has more to do
with who you are and your personality, as well as your own
personal colouring, but a lot more to do with your
personality. And it's broken into four separate groups. So I
think recently, companies like House of Colour have taken those
and called them seasons to try and organise that a little bit
more. And that's fine. They've done it completely wrong in a
couple of ways, because they've tried to make it equal across
the seasons, which is not the case right now, but that's a
whole 'nother topic. So there's that, and then there's also the
behavioural aspect of how a colour will influence your mood
and why you might be drawn to it, and why you might not be
drawn to it at a particular time. So for example, if you had
an orange dining plate or were sitting in an orange room while
you were eating, you probably will eat more. You'll over eat.
It's just influence. It opens up your mind, and abundance and
that kind of thing. You just tend to over consume with
orange. Purple tends to be a colour that is for people that
are feeling a bit less sociable at that particular time, or very
much more choosy. It's a colour that people are drawn to when
they're hungover. It's not all shades of purple, but I'm
generalising just for now. Red, you know, we're very familiar
with red being a little bit more aggressive, a bit more in your
face, just open, just much more bold, And then blue is a really
great one for focusing. Again, not all blues. So when Indy was
having exams when he was younger and he used to pick up some
knitting (he doesn't tend to anymore), then I would have him
knit with blue yarns as a little break between study sessions,
because it would keep that part of his brain active but allow
him to have a little break from studying. So blue was great for
that. And I will use it. Like I said, if I need to be really
thinking and thinking spreadsheets and that kind of
thing, I'll pick up my blue project for a little bit and
just calm down with that, and then go straight into my
thinking piece.
Mia Hobbs: So you're very deliberate about your choices of
what you're knitting with, to fit the circumstances in your
life?
Milli Abrams: I mean, it just happens now. I think what I'm
deliberate about is making sure that I've got enough projects at
hand or around. I don't like to have more than three projects on
the go, because I am someone that likes to finish. I don't
tend to have lots of WIPs. I like finishing. But I do have
three that are intentionally quite different from each other
because of what they will do for my mental health.
Mia Hobbs: So that sounds very deliberate in that sense. And I
think I certainly would relate to that: that the things I'm
working on have to fit different needs for me. But I don't
actually think about the colour in that way, which is really
interesting. And actually, when I spoke to Betsan Corkhill, who
is an expert in therapeutic knitting, she speaks a lot about
the idea of using knitting to... rather than it reflecting the
mood you're in, thinking about the mood you want to move
yourself into. And that sounds very similar to your ethos.
Milli Abrams: Yeah. And also, with the finished garment, when
you're wearing it... Like I'll use the colours of the garments
that I'm wearing to convey a certain type of my personality
in a public setting, or not. So for example, for my whole life I
was an accountant; I so much was drawn to what people would refer
to as the winter colours, like cooler colours, and they do suit
me, your blacks, your whites, your strong reds, peacocks, that
kind of thing. And I was always really drawn to that. But it
does make me much less approachable as a person. So
when I opened the shop, one of the things that I talked to
Angela about (who's like the guru of colour therapy), she was
like, "Well, just make sure that you're never in there wearing
blacks and whites." So this new business of mine was not like
accounting; I needed to be approachable and soft. And I
needed to sort of bring out my more autumn aspects. So I wear a
lot more rich autumnal colours and navies and that kind of
thing, which also suit me but I wouldn't have dreamt of wearing
them as an accountant. I didn't want to be that person in that
setting, whereas I do now. And then conversely, if I'm going to
something else where I just want a bit more glamour, I'll wear
black again.
Mia Hobbs: I wonder whether that was also to do with... I'm
guessing you were in a more male-dominated environment when
you were in business? Or maybe needing to convey more power
Milli Abrams: Yeah, right in the beginning I was. I mean, I am
than you do in your yarn shop.
quite a small woman and I just needed more help with the power
that I was exuding when I was telling people no, they couldn't
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. I wonder whether there are other ways
have that money or whatever it was.
that we haven't talked about that you feel knitting is
beneficial for your mental wellbeing.
Milli Abrams: We get loads of people in the shop that will
come by and say, "Oh, that's lovely. I wish I could do that,
but I don't have the patience for that." And I am the least
patient person I've ever met in my life. I'm just not patient,
I'm not tolerant. And therefore knitting is even more important
for me than it would be for someone who already is calm and
zen and patient. So I think when people say that, I'd love the
people to know... especially men, I think, because they tend
to be more the ones that are like, "Oh, I don't have time. I
work." And the other thing I hear is "I don't have time." I
don't have time, I work crazy hours, but I still find time for
knitting. I think it's important to have something, especially in
this day and age when we are just overstimulated all the
time. If you could have something like meditating or
colouring in or knitting, that takes you off your device and
gives you something repetitive and small, and it is about those
micro movements, that's where the magic is, releasing the good
hormones. And with knitting that means not knitting on needles
that are more than about 5mm. There's a sweet spot with a
knitting needle to keep it micro, to get the maximum
benefit with your serotonin. Everyone sort of needs that, I
think, these days. I've actually lived on a desert island.
Mia Hobbs: And even then you still brought your knitting!
Milli Abrams: Yeah, and I would still bring my knitting!
[Laughs]
Mia Hobbs: I would too.
Milli Abrams: I meditate and I have done lots over the years.
And that comes and goes a lot more than my knitting does,
because at the end of the day I feel guilty about sitting down
and doing nothing. I just have that. I don't know what it is,
but I do feel guilty about that unless I'm knitting. And then
somewhere in my head, I know I'm creating and relaxing, and then
I can really let myself be in it and sit and do it for hours,
which is really important.
Mia Hobbs: I suppose I've heard quite often the idea that
knitting is kind of a substitute for meditation, or a form of
meditation. And several of the people I've spoken to, and
certainly I think this is probably true of me, have
classified themselves as failed meditators, therefore they are
knitters, and they get a kind of similar thing from it. It sounds
like you've stuck with your knitting maybe more constantly
than you have with the meditation.
Milli Abrams: Yeah, definitely. I have stuck with knitting a lot
more. And I think mainly because it doesn't do the same thing for
me as meditating. Meditating is definitely much more intense.
But I think it's more the portability and the
practicality. So I can still do it at a train station and hear
when my train is coming and not be completely cut off from the
world. And when I do meditate, I do it to get to a much deeper
state, and it takes a lot longer, like two or three hours.
And it has to be silent, and I can't have the family running
around. I can't do that as often. I can pick up my knitting
ten times a day and just have a little meditative break with my
knitting, so I think that's why I do it a lot more. And these
days, yarns are SO much nicer than they used to be, and
patterns are just everywhere and so accessible. It's just so much
easier to find the right project.
Mia Hobbs: And in terms of what you're drawn to do you like a
variety in terms of yarn? Is that also something that floats
your boat?
Milli Abrams: Yeah, massively. So I love the super, super
rustic Icelandics. Absolutely love those. And then I really
like my super high end silks and cashmeres. It's important to me
that I know where the yarns come from, and then I know that it's
ethically made. And it's important to me that it doesn't
have plastic in it. But other than that, a wide variety and a
wide variety of gauges. And I do knit with chunky yarns
sometimes, usually if it's just because I have to make a short
sample/I have to bang out a gift really quickly. But my sort of
sweet spot for a needle is about the 3.75 range, and that will
give me the max pleasure.
Mia Hobbs: I'm the same actually. I've heard a lot of
people on the podcast who don't like knitting on the smaller
gauges. And I didn't know whether it was because of that,
or just the things I wanted to knit recently, that I ended up
knitting with some larger gauge... I mean larger for me,
like an Aran weight yarn, so like a 5 maybe or 5.5. I'm quite
a loose knitter. But my hands don't like it as much. I find
that I don't get RSI at all if I knitted on 2.25 or 3 or quite
tiny needles, and knitted with 4-ply. I could do that probably
forever. Whereas if it gets bigger, even a DK, I think my
hands struggle a bit more. And they don't love cotton either.
Milli Abrams: Yeah, there's no stretch in cotton. Unless you
get a chain knit. I've recently discovered really great chain
knits, which is a fairly new thing in the industry, because
the old chain knits were terrible. But the new chain
knits that they use cotton for have stretch in them, so if you
Mia Hobbs: That's interesting. I was interested in the idea about
want to knit cotton, get a chain knit. It's brilliant. Okay. But
the kind of things people say about knitting in the shop,
yeah, the bigger needles, and it just becomes more of a macro
movement and you tend to involve a bit more shoulder and elbow
because you must have a lot of conversations with people who
and things. It's not something that you can just do with your
fingertips. Yeah, you need to fight a bit more with the process.
are new or want to start knitting, and super-experienced
knitters, about whether they say things about what knitting does
for them, or what kind of questions they ask you, whether
they ask for your help with colour?
Milli Abrams: Yeah, we get lots of feedback from knitters about
how, especially during lockdown, it just saved them, for a lot of
people.
Mia Hobbs: Is that more existing knitters, would you say?
Milli Abrams: No, both during lockdown actually. And then with
the experience, I'd say the majority was people that had
returned to knitting. So they've had the greatest benefit, and
they've usually not done it for a long time and they did it on
really old-style needles with old yarn, and everything's moved
on to such a huge extent that the tools are just 100%
different to what they used to be, and the yarns. So they've
had the greatest sort of wow moments. We have lots of people
who are experiencing grief who turned to knitting. And
actually, I think there's a lot of doctors that tell people that
they should try knitting when they're experiencing grief. And
it seems to really, really help them just sort of metabolise it,
I guess. What was your... oh, the colours. Yeah, colours is my
thing, so yes, I do get a lot of...
Mia Hobbs: So you enjoy having those conversations with people
and helping them pick.
Milli Abrams: That's my favourite thing to do. And it's
Mia Hobbs: It's interesting that for you, you know more about the
funny how there's so many people who feel really lost with
colours, or really just don't trust themselves with it. And
then you can get colours wrong. I feel actually physically
nauseous when I see some colour combos, and it affects me viscerally.
kind of mathematical formula of why. Because I think sometimes I
probably have looked at a colourwork sweater and thought,
"Ooh I'm not sure..." You know, you look on Ravelry and see lots
of versions of the same sweater for inspiration, and then think,
"Ooh, not that one." But I would just feel like it was my spidey
senses or something. I wouldn't be able to put science on it,
but that must be great!
Milli Abrams: Yeah, it is great! But there's also... Angela was
always very "You mustn't put this colour with this colour."
And yes, there is that, but I also really love to have a
disrupter in there somewhere, so long as it's the right type of
disrupter. You don't want something that was lovely and
energetic, and then had a weird sort of drab colour in there
that just made it all fall apart. That's not the right
disrupter. But if you had something that was a whole bunch
of, say, neutrals with a pastel or something, and then you
chucked in one disruptive colour that just gave that piece a lot
of energy, that's my favourite sort of thing to do.
Mia Hobbs: Do you know, my mum says that about... she's like,
"You need one (she'll call it) ugly colour in there, to make
the others look great." [Laughs] But she's great with colour.
She's so good and confident from just, I don't know, natural
ability and being artistic.
Milli Abrams: Yeah! And years of practice.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. But she's really good at experimenting and
seeing what works, and changing it if it doesn't.
Milli Abrams: And that's the other thing: you've got to be
willing to change it if it doesn't work and to make the
mistakes. And if you want to get good at it, you've just got
to keep practising and be open to your own feedback and realise
when actually no, that's not good.
Mia Hobbs: Do you think you've always been so good at ripping
out? Or tolerant of it? Because I think I've definitely got
better over time, and now other people are much more traumatised
watching me do it than I feel about doing it.
Milli Abrams: Oh yeah. Darren used to be horrified that I used
to finish a whole thing and then find one thing at the beginning
where I would wish I'd stuck a colour in or something, and I'd
rip it all back. But yeah, I've always been totally fine because
I'm a process knitter and I don't really care about the
final knitted thing to own or wear. It's the process. The only
thing that really traumatises me, I'd say, (if it's trauma) is
I'm terrible about cutting... you know where it says "break
yarn". I know that I will very often go back and rip things
out, so I beat myself up over cutting a yarn where I probably
shouldn't have cut it, and I should have left it attached to
Mia Hobbs: Because the ends are worse, aren't they, for that? If
the ball because I almost definitely always go back. I
don't like ends. I just don't like too many ends. I've knit
with silks and cottons so much that ends are a little bit of a
trauma to me.
it was a sheep's wool, we could spit splice it.
Milli Abrams: Exactly. I don't mind cutting those. I'm awful at
having these projects with loads of balls attached because I
refuse to cut anything until it's done. [Laughs]
Mia Hobbs: I would love to ask about a significant knitting
project for you. It could be something that feels significant
in your journey with knitting or for your life.
Milli Abrams: That's a good question. I think for a long
time, it would have been the blanket that I made for Indy
when I was pregnant. That was very personal to him. But I
couldn't even tell you where that is now. We might have lost
it in the hurricane, I don't know. I make a conscious effort
to not be attached to anything physical, so I try not to get
really, really attached to the actual thing. But in terms of
the process...
Mia Hobbs: Even just the process of being somewhere significant
at a time in your life while you made it.
Milli Abrams: Yeah, definitely the pregnancy ones. I mean, I
like some projects where you've designed it yourself. I guess it
means a lot more than when I'm knitting off another pattern.
And normally, that's because I've knit it like 7, 8, 9 times
and ripped it back and knit it again just to get it right. So
you spend a lot of time with it and you're a bit more invested
in those projects. I've never knit anything for Darren so I
can't say that it's anything massively significant that I've
made for family that they hugely appreciate. I knit a hat for my
granddad a couple of years ago for Christmas that made him
throw up immediately. It was terrible! A beautiful cashmere
hat but he overheated straightaway because he couldn't
take it off! And then he threw up. So I remember that one!
Mia Hobbs: Oh no! Lots of people have spoken about things they've
made in significant times, like for example grief has come up
very often. I think for me, it's often like... I don't know, the
first time I needed a sweater and actually made something that
fitted me. You know, I knitted a lot of non-gauge-determined
items at the beginning like shawls and maybe a hat but
they're kind of stretchy and more forgiving than a sweater.
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I can't even remember the last time I made a
sweater, or the first time I made a sweater that fit. I don't
think I ever tried to make sweaters that really fit. I
haven't really tried to do that until I had the shop and I was
leading knit-alongs and things, and I had to teach other people
that wanted to keep their knits for some reason [laughs] how to
make it fit.
Mia Hobbs: Have you not kept even sweaters for yourself?
Milli Abrams: No, I don't keep them. They're all shop samples.
I get to wear them, so I'll wear them home or they might sit in
my wardrobe for a weekend when I'm at home and then I'll wash
them and take them back to the shop and they'll be a shop
sample. I don't tend to have my own. Everything really belongs
to the shop and then I borrow them.
Mia Hobbs: So you've got a never-ending stream of new
things to wear for a weekend!
Milli Abrams: I have, yeah! As long as I'm organised enough to
remember to take it home from the shop that night, which is
great for the shawls and things for some of them are quite
dressy. So yeah, I've got like a big tickle trunk of possible
knits at the shop that I can borrow whenever I want to. But
we've recently moved to a boat, and again, I don't have very
much wardrobe space. So yes, I just use the shop as a wardrobe
space.
Mia Hobbs: Perfect! And you can keep on knitting. You don't have
to feel guilty when your wardrobe is full!
Milli Abrams: Yeah! And in Canada, whenever I knit, I used
to give all the stuff to my mates and then I'd borrow it
back when I was like, "Oh, I really want the... you know".
And we all lived fairly close to one another, so I'd just nip by
and grab that jumper back for whatever reason. And we sort of
just shared all my knits, I suppose. I just never kept them
at our home. So yeah, I like that about knitting.
Mia Hobbs: Does it bother you if people don't... Some people I've
spoken to have said, "There's certain people I WOULD knit for
because they kind of get it" like a) how many hours went into
that; b) how to look after it properly if it's wool or
something like that, don't just felt it the first time you wash
it. [Laughs] Does that bother you or will you literally set
them free into the world and don't think about them again?
Milli Abrams: I won't make something for someone that's
asked for something, if they don't know what it is they're
asking for. And people are always asking, and I'll get
messages on Instagram or whatever from friend, "Can you
make my wife one of those or whatever?" And I'll be like,
"No. I mean, I could but it's going to cost you £600. That's
my time."
Mia Hobbs: Well, that's cheap! You've not given yourself a
decent hourly rate, Milli! [Laughs]
Milli Abrams: Well, that is cheap! [Laughs]
Mia Hobbs: And the yarn!
Milli Abrams: So no, I don't make stuff for people that don't
get it. If they really get it and they really want it, then
absolutely, I'll make it for them. And if I know that they're
not going to look after it, and they've asked for it, then they
won't get it. But generally, if it's something that I was making
anyway, and someone's said that they'd quite like it, then they
can have it and there's no questions asked. I will mention
to them that they shouldn't chuck it in the washing machine
or they won't be able to wear it very much. But then if it's
theirs, and it's gone, I don't even think about it again I
think. You know, after it's gone, it's gone.
Mia Hobbs: Do you knit quite fast?
Milli Abrams: Very fast. Yeah, I'm extremely fast. Recently
we've had people in the shop... Because I've not been on the
shop floor as much, I've been back in the office or downstairs
in the back or wherever, and I've heard people say (or the
girls have said that another person said) "Does Milli really
knit all those knits or does she have like an army of minions in
the background making the stuff?" I knit all my knits
myself. It's important for me to experience all of the yarn
myself, but I am very fast. And I'm small, so I make the smaller
size [laughs] which really helps!
Mia Hobbs: But don't you seem from Instagram to have produced
knits that look great on a whole number of family members as
well?
Milli Abrams: The shawls! The shawls fit everyone.
Mia Hobbs: Are they all shawls? Have I not seen sweaters on Indy
Milli Abrams: Oh I do do that! I do make my son wear... yeah, I
or...?
mean, they are small for him. He didn't go out wearing them.
Mia Hobbs: He's very tolerant of it!
Milli Abrams: Oh he's amazing. He'll do whatever I ask him to
do. He doesn't really care what anyone thinks. He'll just do
whatever he wants. But I will quite often put it on him
because I want to see what the shoulders or the neckline might
look like on a man, or how it'll fit if you haven't got boobs, or
what that colour might look like on someone else, or does a very
soft mohair look alright on a bloke that's got a beard, that
kind of thing. So yeah, I will make the family try... you know,
my dad will try on a lot of my stuff. My dad loves trying
things on for me and he quite often gets them. He's got loads
of my knits in his wardrobe, but I never see him actually wear
them after the first time. So I should really take them back
[laughs] and give them to someone else. But they are
small. I do knit oversize arms. I like really long arms. Maybe
that's why they get away with it.
Mia Hobbs: You like to wear them?
Milli Abrams: I like to wear overly long sleeves.
Mia Hobbs: I always end with asking: what's the greatest gift
that knitting has given you for the rest of your life?
Milli Abrams: It's very important. I think it's probably
added several years to my life.
Milli Abrams: Just in the calming and, you know, not being
Mia Hobbs: In what way specifically, do you think?
frazzled and stressed and giving myself a stress-induced disease,
I think. All that time where people think it's wasted,
knitting, it's probably not. It's probably adding that much
time and then some at the end of your life, you know? It's not a
waste of time. And I think the biggest, biggest gift is that it
makes me a much easier person to be around and to live with for
my family, because I'm not totally frazzled all the time if
I've got my knitting. And they get some downtime from me. I'm
very A Type. I'm always needing things to do because I can't sit
still. But it gives them a break to just sit and chill when they
know that I'm not going to bother them because I'm in my knitting.
Mia Hobbs: So it does sound like it really has a regulating kind
of function for you.
Milli Abrams: Massively. And I notice it very much if I have
not picked up my needles that day or for a couple of days. I
feel like I really need some time, and I'm just going to grab
my needles and just be.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. I feel like I can feel it physically as well,
that I need to kind of have... My grandma used to slightly
sneakily still smoke and think we didn't know about it.
[Laughs] It was almost like after she'd eaten her dinner,
she'd get a bit agitated and feel like she needed to smoke.
And I've felt exactly the same about my knitting.
Milli Abrams: Absolutely. There's times where you just
feel a bit antsy and a bit up, and you're just like, "Right,
let's just go sit over there, grab some knitting and just calm
down for a while." So I think that's the greatest, greatest
gift, that you've got a tool that allows you to have instant
stress relief, and you can take it anywhere you go, and it makes
a lot of the more stressful times in your life, like sitting
in traffic (not when you're driving, obviously) or waiting
for something where you can just get more and more riled up. It
makes those times the complete opposite of what they would have
been, which I think is huge. I don't know how people cope! I
don't know how people live that don't have the knitting.
Mia Hobbs: I did end up doing a lot of waiting for hospital
appointments a few years ago, sometimes three hours in this
particular department that I had to go back to a couple of times,
and everybody else had their phones and they'd by the end run
out of phone battery. And I was knitting and I thought, "Next
time I come here, if I have to come back, I'm bringing extra
yarn and needles!" because there were people who were then
striking up conversation about my knitting, because I was the
only one doing anything other than on their phone, which I
think makes people look unapproachable, I guess, if
they're looking down at a phone. And they were asking me about
it. And I felt so lucky!
Milli Abrams: Well, because the other thing that makes you more
approachable, I think, as a knitter and as a social knitter,
if you're someone that has anxiety about social settings
and new people, is that when you've got your knitting you can
have a really good mix of eye contact with people and then an
excuse to break your eye contact in a non-awkward way. So you've
always got your knitting that you can look down at, but you
can also look up and maintain decent eye contact. There's no
pressure or awkward social pressure to keep looking at the
person that you're interacting with. So I think that's also why
a lot of people that have that awkwardness, it's good for them
when they've got their knitting and they feel like they can
approach you more, because you haven't got to be that intense
with them because you're already doing something. And it's not
like, you know, when you're reading a book, you don't want
to approach that person because they've got to be looking at
their book to continue what they're doing. But you can talk
to someone that's knitting.
Mia Hobbs: And I certainly find my concentration... I have a
very flighty concentration span, I suppose. Like if I'm sitting
in a busy waiting room, I wouldn't be able to really focus
on a book, I don't think, or on a bus. Whereas I totally could
knit. But I wouldn't have enough focus to just read, I don't
think.
Milli Abrams: Yeah, I'm either not into the book enough, and
I'm not focused because I'm concentrating on other stuff and
have to listen for my stop, or I'm so into my book that I'm
going to miss my stop. But when I used to get on my little bus
in the Caribbean, that took me down to a boat, that was fine. I
could read because everyone else on the bus would tell me when it
was time to get off at the next stop! [Laughs] And that's fine.
I used to really get into a book then. But that's...
Mia Hobbs: That's not going to happen in London. [Laughs]
Milli Abrams: I mean, I guess you could ask the person next to
you, "Can you just tap me when it's such-and-such stop?" But we
don't do that, do we?
Mia Hobbs: No, we don't. We should be more Caribbean in our
attitude! You wouldn't see the same people every day, that's
for sure.
Milli Abrams: No, no.
Mia Hobbs: Interesting that you said the more senior you got,
the more possible it felt to knit during meetings to help you
concentrate. And certainly I've found that as well. But now I
feel like I have more confidence. And I think it's
helps that some stuff is over Zoom. I just don't believe
humans are designed to sit down and do a six hour training
course and not move!
Milli Abrams: No! Not at all.
Mia Hobbs: And I feel like if I knit, it's the perfect level of:
my hands are busy and my brain is available for concentrating.
Whereas if I wasn't doing that, I feel like my brain might
freelance onto something even more distracting, and then
actually draw my concentration away from what I'm supposed to
be focusing on.
Milli Abrams: It's like doodling, isn't it? It's like a
form of doodling. But you end up with an actual 3D possibly
useful thing at the end of it.
Mia Hobbs: You described yourself as a Type A person. How
much does having something tangible that you've created add
to the appeal of knitting? You said you like to finish things.
Do you get a certain sense of achievement from... I guess lots
of the things we do are on a screen and you can't really see
your progress. You've done a day's work, but it's not really
visible. Whereas with knitting you have a thing you can show
and feel and touch.
Milli Abrams: You have a thing, yeah. And there's a beginning
and an end. I think, for me, that's more important than
actually having the thing, because I don't ever really want
the thing. But I like that there's a finite end to a thing
and you can finish an actual project and it's gone. I think,
in my experience with knitting and all the people around me
that knit, it seems to be a more male need, maybe, or more
important from an actual creating point of view and
having a thing that you've sculpted and made. That seems to
make the boys... I've noticed that they have a lot more
satisfaction about having the final piece, about the creation.
I mean, women do too but it's very much more noticeable with
guys - that they've got like a thing that they've made. For me,
it's more the beginning of it. I genuinely get the same pleasure
out of a really great spreadsheet. [Laughs] I love a
spreadsheet! Whenever I've got one that I've 'birthed', and
then it's finished and it's magnificent, then I love that
too. And that's not a tangible thing, so I know that for me it
doesn't have to be something I can hold. But I like that
there's an ending.
Mia Hobbs: I think one of the things we talk about, like when
we're using knitting for people who are maybe struggling with
low mood or something, we talk about having two types of tasks
that are helpful: something that's intrinsically enjoyable,
and something that gives you a sense of achievement. So even if
I tidied my desk or my workspace, that might not be fun
for me but I could look at it and think, "Oh, well done me. I
did that." But I guess knitting gives you both, and it's harder
to deny progress if you can see it and hold it in your hand.
Milli Abrams: Yeah! And a new learned technique. That's hugely
satisfying, when you're learning something a lot of the time, or
Mia Hobbs: So you're someone who likes the uncharted new
you're coming across a new colour combo. Do you know, one
of the really cool things in the shop is when we willl get a
bunch of customers and someone will put a yarn down on the
counter that they want, and someone else puts another yarn
down on the counter, and they happen to be next to each other
and you just think, "Wow! I never would have put those
territory, aren't you? In the colour combos, but also in the
colours together, but wow!" I love that.
techniques. That's a driver for you.
Milli Abrams: The learning, yeah, and I think that's really
important as well. There's different types of people.
There's some people that are the perfectionists and they have to
get it right, and they need the finished article, and that's
where they derive their sense of achievement and enjoyment. And
there's others that are process driven, like me, and then
there's people where we just want to constantly be changing
and learning and moving and that's who I am. And I think
it's really good for... don't they say it's great for
cognitive function and the ageing brain, if you can keep
learning and keep introducing new skills and rebuilding in all
those pathways.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah! And I guess if you think about your past, you
didn't get to be... was it CFO?... and work with Richard
Branson, unless you were a high-achieving, ambitious
person. And I guess all of that drive is in you somewhere, and
it's going in your knitting and learning new techniques.
Milli Abrams: Yeah, there is that but also, as an accountant,
I'm the very outside of the box... you know, creative... I'm
not a creative accountant in the bad sense, but I am an outside
the box accountant that is driven... I'll look at different
things with performance, and holistically as a business as a
whole. So my style of accounting really worked for him in that
business, and the way that I will lead a team is like that.
And it is also the way that I approach my knitting. Whereas
Darren, my husband, is an accountant but he's a much more
detail-driven in-the-weeds accountant, and he doesn't have
an interest in knitting things and wouldn't know where to start
with creating a project or chucking colours together,
because that's not who he is. Actually it would stress him
out. I sometimes say, "What do you think of this colour and
this colour?" and he's just like, "What?! I don't even..."
Mia Hobbs: But that creativity is a driver for you?
Milli Abrams: Yeah, the creativity's a driver for me but
I recognise that with some people, unless they've got the
formula and the pattern and it's written out, and the
predictability of how the colours will work, they'll get
really stressed out about it. But once that bit is taken care
of, then they find it equally enjoyable to sit and knit.
Mia Hobbs: And actually, that's amazing, isn't it? That knitting
could be a great task for both different types of people with
very different... cognitive needs, we could call it, I
suppose. The fact that you can get your needs met in your way,
being more creative.
Milli Abrams: Yeah, so that's very interesting. And that's why
I think that it's so good at bringing together all the
different types of people. You don't have to be a particular
type of person to enjoy knitting; you can pretty much be
any background and any type and your brain can work in any way.
You could be someone that has to be predictable and methodical,
or someone that likes the chaos like I do. Actually, I like the
chaos but then I really like the order and the maths side of
knitting. So yeah, it all works.
Mia Hobbs: You're running Knit Nites, aren't you, at Tribe?
Milli Abrams: Yeah. At the minute they're virtual.
Mia Hobbs: But they were in person for a while, weren't
they?
Milli Abrams: They were.
Mia Hobbs: Is there anything that surprises you about the
conversations that come up, that feels different about the kind
of conversations people have while their knitting, compared
to if people were in a pub or a restaurant or...?
Milli Abrams: I mean, we talk a lot more about yarns and
patterns and things! [Laughs]
Mia Hobbs: Yeah sure. I guess many of the people don't know
each other? Or do they? Before they come?
Milli Abrams: Yeah. It's a lot easier to sit in a group when
you've got your knitting, than say if you're all sat there in a
circle with nothing but each other! And we get new people all
the time. Every week we've got at least one new person, and
that's great. We've all got something that unites us all,
but we all recognise that we're extremely different. And on our
virtual Knit Nites we're global. We're all over the world. We've
got people in Finland and Australia and the States and
Portugal and from all over the place in different time zones on
this one call, and that's nice. We're all knitting very
different things in different colours, and we can all
appreciate what the other person's making.
Mia Hobbs: I think that's another thing, you know, you
were talking about the idea of being able to regulate your eye
contact when you're knitting. I guess the other thing is you do
just have an automatic topic of conversation, even with
non-knitters when they talk to you on a bus or something. It's
in a way less awkward. They can ask you about your knitting
or...
Milli Abrams: It's like having a cute baby. I mean that's when
you've always got people that will come and talk to you if
you've got a cute dog or a baby.
Mia Hobbs: Yes, this is true. [Laughs]
Milli Abrams: It is kind of like that. For ages we were thought
of as really weird. I was a closet knitter for a very long
time in my childhood, because it was not cool to be knitting. You
didn't tell anyone that you did it. But it is cool now! It's
kind of fine. It's a little bit fringe, but it's fine.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I was certainly... I mean I didn't
always knit. Sometimes I was doing other things like cross
stitch, and I don't think I realised how much I needed it
for my mental wellbeing. But I would always get my revision
done quite early, and then the night before exams I'd be
secretly in my bedroom cross stitching. Because obviously, if
you did that openly, people would be annoyed at you that
you'd finished revising, but I just get to the point where I'm
done. Psychologically, I can't cram any more into this brain.
Now I'm doing something else. But I feel like it almost opened
a different trapdoor in my mind, that doing something rhythmical
with my hands allowed the revision to percolate in a way,
I felt.
Milli Abrams: Yeah, definitely. And it was a reward for me as
well. I'd get a whole bunch of revision done, and then allow
myself to go knit a few more line, because it was just so
good. I know some people would reward themselves with cake or a
cigarette or something, but knitting's a super healthy way
of rewarding yourself, I guess, with hindsight.
Mia Hobbs: I relearnt, actually. My mum insisted I learnt when I
started my doctorate in Clinical Psychology, because she thought
it was a good thing to do. And it did turn out to be the
perfect thing for revision breaks. I was knitting a big
shawl, so they had rows, and you could do a row or two rows, and
then there's a finite end to your break. And then you go back
to the books.
Milli Abrams: Yeah. You do have to be disciplined enough to say,
"I'm not going to just do one more row."
Mia Hobbs: Or when you're knitting in the round, it's even
harder. [Laughs] The rows are less finite. Well, Milli, it has
been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much
for joining me on the podcast. If people want to find out more
about you or Tribe, how would they find out more?
Milli Abrams: Probably through the Tribe Yarns website:
www.tribeyarns.com. And then I do send out a newsletter, which
tends to be long and has a lot in it, but I only do that once
every month or every six weeks. I'm not very good at sending
that more often than that. So subscribe to the newsletter. And
follow me on Instagram @tribeyarnslife where there's
always lots of pictures of me and my family.
Mia Hobbs: In beautiful Richmond!
Thank you so much for listening to the Why I Knit podcast. If
you'd like to find out more about therapeutic knitting, you
can follow me on Instagram @knittingistherapeutic, or at my
website: www.therapeuticknitting.org. If
you're enjoying the podcast, I would really appreciate it if
you could leave a rating and a review on your podcast app. This
will help grow the podcast and let more people know about the
therapeutic benefits of knitting. And don't forget to
subscribe too. Thank you!