Hello and welcome to The Talent Trade. I

am your host. Stephanie Maas, partner with ThinkingAhead

Executive Search, and today, I am super jazzed to have one of

the best of the best in the business with us today. Jenn

White joined our firm three years ago. She came out of the

gates swinging. She broke our 20 plus year top first year record,

and has been a top producer every year since then in the

legal recruiting space. Super happy to have you with us and

Jenn, I'll let you tell us a little bit more about you and

your niche, and then we'll dive into our topic.

Thank you so much. Steph, yes, I joined three

years ago in the legal space. I have been in sales and marketing

for, I would say, my entire career, in one aspect or the

other. And I love recruiting for law firms and for attorneys.

It's a great group of people to get to know and to chat with.

Most attorneys are networkers at heart, because they have their

own kind of sense of book of business that they're trying to

build. So in ways, we kind of line up in that in that sense.

So I really, really enjoyed it. We have a wonderful team, and my

coworkers on my team I just love so I feel very blessed to be

here.

We're super, super thankful to have you. So

today, Jenn, my understanding is you are going to lead us through

a little bit of a discussion as it relates to partnership versus

vendor, all that stuff in the legal recruiting business.

So a lot of times, the way that things work

when you are in the legal recruiting field is there's

different types of ways that you can partner with law firms. The

law firms are considered the client and the attorneys are

considered the candidate. And if you can kind of liken it a

little bit to real estate, where the clients are the sellers, and

then the candidates are the buyers. So what you're trying to

do is get to know your clients, your firms, as much as possible,

and be able to have the respect that they would be calling you.

So what I thought would be a good idea is to kind of go

through the steps of how to get to be at the desk in the C suite

with these firms. So there's different types of searches that

you have. You can start out with a contingent search, which

basically means they have a need, and they're sending it out

to all the recruiters out there and candidates alike. Sometimes

it will be posted on their on their firm websites. That's a

little bit like acting like you're a sports agent, so you

have the talent, and you're kind of shopping them around to each

of these firms. So that's that's the contingent basis. Everyone

has the same shot at the person that you are working with, the

candidate. So the good thing about that is that you have a

lot of shots on goal. You can have this candidate go out to

different types of firms. However, there's no guarantee

that you're going to get paid, so sometimes what you do is

you'll try to have that firm, a firm in particular, be a client

that you want to have a retained search with. And what that means

is that you're identifying a firm that you feel like has

great opportunities. Because I think that's one thing, is

identifying which firms you want to work with is just as key as

them identifying which recruiters. Because if you have

a search that no one wants, and it's a it's a dog search, then

you're really kind of shitting yourself in the foot. Because

even though you may get money up front, you are probably not

going to get the rest of that money, because it's a really

difficult sign. So when you identify the firm and you

realize that it's a great firm that you want to work with,

that's number one. But you have to make sure that the firm's

good. You're going to have a successful search. It's actually

something that people are going to want to join. That's kind of

what I think it's important for people to realize you don't just

want to work with anyone. And then the approach of how you

want to work with these firms can be either you identified

them and you've never worked with them and never placed with

them, but you've always known about them, and you're going to

pitch that routine search right off the bat. Then there's the

way that you have worked with them in the contingent side.

That's kind of how I like to do it, because you kind of want to

work and you kind of want to place somebody at these firms.

You want to know the entire process from start to finish,

because when you're going to retain search, you're really

promising them that they will find the talent they're paying

you, and it's only you searching for them. So knowing the ins and

out of that firm, I think, is really important. So the

approach would be, in my opinion, work with them on a

contingent basis. Then if you want to go in and then have the

retained basis, you kind of understand some bumps up front,

and you're not kind of setting yourself up for disappointment.

But that being said, it's definitely fine to go ahead and

pitch for the retained if it's a firm that you feel like you want

to work with and you feel like it's a great shot. So I don't

want to sway anyone that way. But my approach, I like to kind

of go with the contingent and then retained, and then once you

do have that ability to partner with a firm, it's really great

to make sure that you know who the key players are. A lot of

times in these firms, especially with legal, they always use

recruiter, so there'll be an in house recruiter that you might

have the the initial conversations with, which is

great. They're usually really good at what they do. They're

going to be able to lead you down the path and have your

pitch kick off. But what I would recommend too, is having the

discussion with them that if things are getting a little

sticky, a little hairy, you're bringing in some candidates that

you feel like they should be hiring, and it's not going well.

Make sure you have the ability to reach out to the managing

partners one on one, because sometimes things just get lost

in a shuffle. Sometimes, you know, playing operator, what you

think you're hearing, and what you think with and what they're

saying might not be exactly coming across. So you just want

to make sure that you have a clear line to the decision

makers. Definitely talk to the people that you're supposed to

talk to. You don't want to go around anyone's back, but make

sure that if things are not going as well as planned, that

you do have the ability to go right to the horse's mouth and

the decision maker. And then the other thing too that's important

to focus on when you are partnering with a firm is

maintaining those objectives and maintaining the satisfaction

level that that you were promising them. If you feel like

there's something that's happening that is not going well

either, whether or not the candidate is you're not being

able to find the candidates. Because that's one thing too

that can be a little bit nerve wracking. You can get these

pitches. You can be at the table with them. You can tell them,

hey, I'm going to be able to find this candidate. Don't

worry. And you go out there and it's just the toughest search

that you could ever work on. Be honest and let them know you're

going to be showing your work. You're going to be showing your

efforts. You're going to be having your bi weekly meetings

with them, telling Hey, I've made 100 calls this week. I've

had this reaction to this search. And I think the other

thing too is making sure that you feel honest enough to give

them that honest feedback. Sometimes, you know, a managing

partner may be really difficult to work with, and they have a

reputation that could be something that you find out

after you already signed the dotted line and gotten your

retained deposit down. So you just want to make sure that

you're always just tactfully showing them what it is that

they need to say. Because look, if they know the managing

partner, might be difficult. They never were told that. So

either way, good news, bad news, I think, is also what you want

to do in order to maintain that relationship with them. Think

the other thing too is, is that sometimes things may not work

out as well as you had hoped. So you have to remember that there

might be a time for you to pivot away from that relationship, in

a sense. So if that's the case, just make sure you're not

burning any bridges. Do your best that you can do. I think

the other thing too is helping to have that communication of

how often you should be communicating with them during

the search, if you are doing everything that you could if

they wanted you to get them all this information. And it didn't

go well, still, I think the thing that you can always do is

just say, hey, you know what? I respect you guys. I think that

I've tapped the market out. Maybe it's time for you guys to

go find another recruiter that you feel like might have a fresh

eye. So it's just kind of important to make sure that you

also have that ability to kind of part ways and not have to

always just hang on to that one particular client, because once

you do sit at that table, you're going to be having a lot of time

and effort from your own desk searching for this particular

search. So you just want to make sure that you're still able to

keep some things, some irons in the fire while you're busy with

that.

Super cool. I'm gonna go back and ask a couple

questions along the way that I think might be super helpful. I

know a lot of folks get pushed back from internal talent

acquisition folks about working directly with the hiring

manager, and I would imagine, especially in your niche, with

attorneys billing by the hour with some of the language, or

what are some of the ways that you're able to kind of break

through that internal stiff farm to really get the time and

attention of the decision makers.

I think that for one if you are exhausting the

limit to where you are with that one particular person who you're

supposed to quote, unquote, be working with, if you feel like

things are just not going well that I have in in the past, just

reached out directly to that managing partner. Don't worry

about it. Email them say, Hey, I think that there's been a couple

of miscommunications. Or hey, this candidate seems to be add

everything that you have looked for. I'm not sure why things

aren't progressing. The way that they should. I would love just

to bend your ear five minutes at the most. Can you let me know

if, after hours I could, I could have a conversation with you.

That's usually when they'll be a little bit more receptive. I

mean, what I did have this conversation, it was at 730 at

night. I didn't care. They didn't care. But it was kind of

meeting them where they needed to be. I think that that's the

other thing too, is give them the opportunity to kind of be

outside of work hours to talk.

And then when you do that, do you ever get

that proverbial slap on the wrist saying, Hey, I told you

not to communicate with them. And if so, how do you handle

that?

So I haven't actually had that with a

retained search situation, so I can go to the contingency in a

second. But when I'm working as a retained search, I feel like

they understand that my job is to get the candidate the right

candidate. So I apologized in the sentence I said, I'm sorry

if I'm stepping on any toes. I just want to let you know I'm

going to have a conversation with XYZ tonight at 730 You guys

are amazing. I will make you look great when I'm talking to

him. Don't worry. Alleviated any sense of gosh, they just start

getting it, um, I just said to them, Hey, don't worry. I'm

going to be your biggest fan, but I'm here. I want to make you

look good, so I'm going to go right to them and see what the

situation is. From the standpoint of, yes, I've had my

hand slot a couple of times on not many but like, you don't

mean to do it. Sometimes it's by accident. You don't realize the

protocol. And when that happens, they can just say, Hey, this is

your one chance. We understand that you didn't understand that

you shouldn't be contacting them. But when that happens, you

know, it happens a lot. Honestly, I think that they're

kind of used to recruiters. I mean, look, we're sales people.

You have to have a certain assertiveness in your

personality to begin with. You don't want to do it all the

time. But if it's, if it's something that you feel like is,

you know, gonna, gonna let it a fire for this particular

candidate to come in. Then, you know, you just gotta kind of ask

for forgiveness instead of permission, sometimes.

Absolutely. And then going back to something

else you said earlier about, you know, identifying the kind of

companies that you want to work with, you know, it's one thing

when you've been in a niche for a while, and you know

reputations of organizations. You know, reputations, but when

you're newer, how do you determine, you know, hey, what

are some key identifiers I'm going to look for when taking a

new search or looking for a new partnership?

When you're starting out in the legal

industry, I think it's smart first of all, to have a

geographical area that you're working with because that that

will just kind of keep your knowledge as you're making these

calls, connecting with either managing partners, other

recruiters, other attorneys. They're going to know people

more. So you kind of want to just dive into those

conversations, make those calls, ask about certain firms from

people that you see had worked there and left. How did you

leave? Was it on good terms? If you kind of get the sense that

people leave on good terms a lot, and that it was more just

kind of an opportunistic I kind of hit my ceiling, then you'll

kind of get a sense to, hey, you know what? That firm actually

isn't a bad firm. They're not because you'll, you'll hear the

bad firms better than, more than the the good firms, the good

firms, you know, it's almost like, if there's nothing said,

then that's kind of a good that's a good talent pool to

kind of, you know, to recruit for it. But I think also, most

of these firms should be doing a good job of selling themselves

to recruiters, because they rely on us. So what I'll do is, I'll

call the director of the recruiting and I'll say, because

the managing partners really don't have, I mean, they're not

really there to sell to candidates necessarily. They're

there to sell to their clients, to get the book of business. So

from that standpoint, they do have a pretty good pitch. But

from a culture standpoint, from a benefit standpoint, from a

path to partnership standpoint, most of the legal firms around

the United States especially, have the ability to give you

even a marketing pitch book. They'll give it to you, and

they'll say, This is what makes us different. These are the type

of clients. This is the path to partnership. And you'll end up

learning about these firms. And then you choose what you like,

you know like, personally, when I heard about a firm that said,

hey, you know what we're we're boutique, but we're kind of

California chic, where we come in, we're allowed to wear jeans

as long as we look professional. You know, we work hard, we play

hard. That's kind of my mentality. So it's easy for me

to understand the benefits of that. Now, if I were to go to a

firm that's like, listen, we're super buttoned up. We stay here

for 1720, years. I can sell it, sure, but it's easier to kind of

know what firm I would want to be working for, and then that's

kind of how I decide, because you just have that passion about

it, and you can tell when you're kind of selling it to a

candidate. So it's kind of, I think, get your own taste and

your own person. Aspect of it, if you like, it'll be easier.

Very cool, super helpful. Have you ever kind of

said, Hey, I've done everything I could try to leave it the best

way you can, and then after a period of time, come back to

work with them again?

Definitely. So there were a couple of firms

that I was just in their back pocket texting. I was their

number one kind of, you know, reach out to then I kind of got

busier with some other things going on. So it kind of

gradually just drifted away. There was no reason. There was

no hard feelings. But you just, kind of, you kind of went your

way. I just pick up the phone and call them. We have them, and

say, Hey, long time. No Talk. Listen, I see this search. Tell

me about it. You just, kind of just keep it pragmatic, you

know. Don't be like, Hey, I'm so sorry. We weren't taught it's

business, you know. So you just go back if you feel like you

find something, and you found something on that they have out

on their searches, or if they sent an email about, hey, we

need help, you just kind of dive back in. I mean, you're going to

have different pools that you're going to hang out with

throughout your entire career, hopefully, if you have a long

career here. So that's just going to kind of happen I think.

Anything else we have not talked about that you

think might be helpful for the good of our listeners?

I think one of the things that we have to

remember as recruiters is there's enough to go around. I

think that, you know, people can get a little bit territorial

and, you know, they get a little bit like, they'll just kind of

throw the resumes out there and not really care about whether or

not it's the right fit. I think that we all, just as recruiters,

have to remember that we're all trying to do our best and to

lean into each other more. I think that that would be really

helpful, you know, give each other pats in the back. So

that's one thing that I would like to start seeing a little

bit more. I have been seeing it more, but this type of legal

recruiting, especially is getting extremely saturated. So

I think that if you know if you're working with if I work

with a candidate, and they say that they're working with

another recruiter, I always say to them, you know, I would

really appreciate if you let them know that you are going to

pivot. Don't just go blank on because we don't get paid until

we place somebody. So I think that that's kind of one of the

things that you know, what goes around, comes around, is

something that I try to really think about. And I think that

if, if you are thinking about getting into this, or if you

already are a recruiter and you're successful, or if you're

having a hard time, definitely reach out to me. I would love to

network. I would love to chat. I'm always here to kind of help

out my fellow recruiter.

That's awesome. Man, thank you so much for

joining us sharing some of your wisdom. Really appreciate your

time and energy here.

Thank you so much. Steph, it's always so

great to chat with you.