Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G, and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. I am in Daytona in, well, not so sunny this week, but Daytona at the Animal Forensicon, and here to tell us more about it is Dr. Adam Stern. Thank you for being here again.

And thank you for coming again. It's great to have you and have you chat with all the speakers that we have at the conference this year.

Yeah, it's been, it's been really good. And the way that this year was done with all of the workshops on the first day, it was really nice because people were able to kind of like, focus on different things that they wanted. I, I think that that was really amazing.

Yeah. The, the one, the one goal we wanted to do this year, not only educate in sort of the classroom format. Was to give people a new experience. And having that hands-on component, uh, really helped a lot with that. We identified some areas where people probably have no experience whatsoever. So for example, like with Bloodstains. People read about it, they see it, but they don't actually know what goes into doing it. So we try to bring those things into it as a new way to educate more.

Yeah, I think that's great because that's the reason why I did the Forensic Science Masters is because there's, there's still so much stuff in the human field that we don't know in the veterinary field or that. We don't use and we don't realize that it could be really helpful. So things like that were, were really, even the, the crime scene part, um, everything was just fantastic.

Yeah, that's really good. And we, we were talking with people in the hallway and they're like, that was fantastic. And that one was great and I really wanted to do that one, but I did the other one I wanted to do. So it's been, it's been really good that the, the positive feedback has been. Great. Throughout the whole day so far.

Yeah. So you had your own workshop, so can you tell us about your workshop?

Yeah, so I did the, the forensic pathology masterclass. And uh, you know, one of the things that people always ask me is I, I wanna learn more about pathology. And, you know, in, in vet school and at different CEEs, we, we sort of touch on, oh, here's like the classic. Case of X or the classic case of Y. And I decided to, you know, dive into some of these areas. But for example, like Emaciation, we talked about that. But, you know, everybody knows what an emaciated animal looks like, but I try to go into a different area, like the bone marrow analysis, for example, to sort of highlight how pathology could be used, but not just a simple, they have no fat, or, you know, they have no disease. It's like, give more. Um, on the areas where people might not know a lot about that, that one specific topic.

Yeah, I think that that's really important because like some of the cases, actually, I had a case relatively recently where the humane officer that came in did not take the dogs because they were like, well, they kinda looked okay, and you can't make that decision just looking, but you have to touch them. But. If they don't get that education, then they're not gonna know.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Just like the pop quizzes I put, I put up animals and like, what's the cause of death? And it was a, a raccoon and you know, I could come up with a hundred different things, but until you look, you're never gonna know. And it's, it the same thing throughout. Live animals, deceased animals. Ask a question, there's a tool that might be able to give you the answer.

And was, was your talk geared, basically, I mean, it sounds like it was geared towards everyone, right? Like how, how would it impact? Human officers versus veterinarians.

Yeah. And that, that's the, that's the hard part, is there's this line and it's a squiggly line because everybody has a, a different level. Some are medically trained, some are investigative trained. There's a couple of attorneys in here, so they're trained in law, so you kind of have to sometimes go above, but then below for, for the different people. But in the end, I try to keep it a straight, average line so that everybody can be engaged. Knowing full well that even though the topic might be over their head for that part, there are little tips that they can learn. Uh, you know, we did, we talked about poisoning cases, you know, little things that they could do, like about, more about the scene. And they're like, oh, yeah, I, I do the scene. But then when we talk a little bit about the pathology, they're like, oh, I don't know about that, but let me use a pathologist or, or let me consult with my veterinarian. So kind of even it out along the way, it's a hard, it's a hard thing to do, but. As we do this more and more, it kind of becomes easier.

I think one of the takeaways too is that they learn how everybody is important as part of the process. So it's not about, you know, it's no one's show. It's everybody's teamwork. So them seeing, hey, this is what the vet has to go through and this is what the humane agent has to go through, and this is what the prosecutor needs to go through, potentially can help make a stronger case.

Oh, a hundred percent. I, I do it as a three-legged stool. Okay. One is the attorney. Okay. And the, the, the legal team. One is the veterinarian, the veterinary team, the technician, animal behaviorist, anybody really interacting with the animal from the sort of medical evaluation side. And then the investigator, if one of those parties is disinterested, not there, it's a three legged stool, it falls down. Can't have that two legged stool. So, uh, that's kind of how I approach all of my trainings is you have to include all three. But then if you're just dealing with the veterinary group, like you only have veterinarians and you could just do a deeper dive. But a lot of times it's, you have to consider the entire team. Certain team members can only answer one question. In certain cases. There's gonna be cases as a pathologist where I, there's no question for me to answer. And, and that's okay. It's, it's not a one person show. It's not a one agency show. It's always multiple agencies. When we work these cases.

So what can we expect for the, these last two days?

So these last two days, we have, we have a wide variety of people. We have someone from the FBI here, and it's gonna go over some crime scene processing from their high level of, um, federal investigations. We have, a couple of laboratory talks. We have one on, identifying individuals based on some, anatomical characteristic from like bones and things like that. We have a couple of veterinarians talking about trauma and the role of the shelter vet, and it kind of goes on and on. Uh, but we're gonna, again, that three-legged stool approach, we're gonna have a little bit from each one so that people can learn new skills, new ideas, and maybe just to be a refresher for others who do it day in and day out.

Well, that's amazing. And I'm looking forward to all of the talks that are going to happen and we'll interview as many of the speakers as possible so people can, can learn what's going on here.

Oh yeah. Well it's great that you're here and I'll tell you next year what we're gonna invite you back, we are probably two weeks away from announcing where and when it's gonna be. Uh, so you'll have to stay tuned for that.

Excellent. Looking forward to that. Well, thank you so much.

Thanks for having me.

All right, so we're at the ForensiCon, and I just sat through this amazing lecture on blood spatter analysis. So can you tell us, well, let's start with basics. What's your name and Where you work?

Uh, my name is Dr. Gabrielle Suba. I retired from the Lee County Sheriff's Office in southwest Florida.

Excellent. And, uh, is blood spatter like the main thing that you do?

I did work in crime scene investigations and then, uh, I specialized in bloodstain analysis and for 25 years I have been interested and researched and taught blood spatter analysis.

You mentioned there in your lecture about the show Dexter, and that's one of my favorite TV shows. Is there any, any truth to that show? Is it well-made or is it just kind of like the CSI effect that not everything is quite right.

Texture is a good show. I like it myself. And, uh, some of the, um, the math and physics here applies in the swinging methods to find the area of origin. It's kind of correct. However, they're showing technology that's not available right now. You know, we don't have virtual reality at every police station to do. The, uh, bloodstain analysis, but in general, it's based on the math and physics of BPA. And actually the, um, Toby Wilson, a friend of mine was the advisor for the first DEXA shows when they did it in Miami, and he was the director of the DNA lab in Miami, and he was also the instructor of BPA.

Oh, excellent. So they had some really good information behind the, what they were showing in the show to tell realistic as possible.

Yeah. The first series, you know, when they were in Miami and, uh, this is where actually it was filmed and he helped them to create the patterns and reconstruct it. So there was a lot of, uh, background that' correct.

Excellent. So what kind of information can blood spatter tell us?

It can tell you the movement at the scene, like the, uh, the way the person is traveling, the suspect or the victim. It also tells you if something had been removed of the scene. If you find the void area, it shows you there was an item there during the blood letting event, but it's not anymore because you have a wide area. So we can learn that. We can learn the location two dimensional and three dimensional, uh, dimension of where the victim was at during the attack.

Is there anything

that blood cannot tell us what we can learn for BPA You cannot find for any other forensic discipline, so that's what makes it really unique. Yeah. You know, blood can tell us DNA. Blood can tell us a lot of things, but, um, there is probably some things we cannot learn through it because we're limited to the size, the shape, and the distribution pattern of the bloodstains to our reconstruction of the event. Excellent.

And then are there any, any ways as far as when we see, uh, a pool of blood, uh, to determine if it is human blood, if it is animal blood, what can, what can investigators. Due to,

well, we have several chemical methods, you know, to determine if it is blood. We can use the Kastle Meier method, which is the, uh, also called phenolthalein test. And then we also have the, uh, hexagon, OBTI, which is a test where you can test for human blood. So if you don't know if it's human or animal, I would do the OBTI test. That tells you it's human.

I have been asked to look at blood evidence and like the pictures tend to be like, really, really important. What would you recommend to like humane agents, uh, to, to do, to be able to give you information that you can use from a scene or such?

First of all, it's very important that you take as many photos as possible. Take the pictures when you arrive to the scene in situ, you know, like what you see. Then, uh, put some, uh, markers out for the different items of evidence you wanna collect. Or in blood. Same pattern. If you have more than one pattern on the wall, you might want to use letters and use the road mapping system. To separate the patterns. Then, uh, we also have like yellow tape, which we can put up around the whole scene to show the height and the width of the pattern. And like I said, photos, photos and photos. And mark your stains. Stains selection is very important in the reconstruction. Take a picture of the stain with your number on there, with the marker on there, with the ruler on there. And then obtained a couple of uh, DNA swabs from the pattern as well.

Excellent. Well, it was a great lecture and thank you so much for talking to me, and thank you for what you do.

It was my pleasure. Thank you.

All right, so now here we are with Lauren Day. Thank you so much for being here. It's so exciting that you were here last year. Yes. And now here you are again. Thank you for having me again. So, can you tell us about what your presentation

today was about? Sure. So I did an animal law masterclass. I basically covered everything from. What are the courts in Florida, the United States courts? Um, the life of a criminal case through the system from the point of when a crime occurs all the way through trial and sentencing. How should witnesses prepare to testify at various hearings? Um, what to look for in building important investigations. And then we did some case studies and lessons learned.

Excellent. So are you, are you doing this primarily for humane officers or law enforcement, or does it apply to pretty much everybody?

It applied to everybody, um, from the law enforcement officers who may be responding, animal services officers who are working those cases. I had some veterinarians in the room, um, for their expert, uh, involvement in the cases, but really for anybody to just have a better understanding of. What a case looks like from a prosecutor's perspective, from start to finish and how we can all work together to build better cases.

Yeah. That to me is important because a lot of the times, like I come into cases just to look at the animal evidence, but then I see sometimes a disconnect between the humane officers and the law enforcement and even the prosecutors, and it kind of becomes a, a fight of who's right, who's wrong, and that kind of stuff. When everybody should be kind of working together. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So what what are the key points that you wanted people like, you know, if there's something that you want the audience to remember, what, what things would those be?

Well, I ended my slide on exactly what you just said, is let's work together and remember that we're all on the same team to try to help the animals in our states and in our communities nationwide, worldwide. Um, my best advice is just talk to your prosecutors, because at the end of the day, that's what we're all working for, is to get a case across the finish line. I touched on things such as, you know, sometimes veterinarians and law enforcement get subpoenas for things and they don't understand why, which is why it was important for me to talk through the life of the case. All of these intermediary hearings that we might have. I gave examples of. Oh, you might get subpoenaed for a case where it looks like it's a cocaine case or a drug case. What does that have to do with the animals? Well, maybe that person was on probation and then they turn around and abused animals, and now you're gonna be called to testify in a violation of probation hearing. So just better educating and understanding the entire process and how again, we can all work together to get these people held accountable and, and help for the animals.

Yeah, I think that that's a really good point because in some of the cases that I have worked with, like I have had some prosecutors that talk to me before and tell me what questions they're gonna ask me. Mm-hmm. And what things to expect. But I've had others that I show up. Yeah. And it's the first time that I've met him or listened. To them. Yeah. And they just expect me to, you know, it is like you're an expert, you know everything. Right, right. So that kinda, as far as veterinarians, would you say, like, you know, they should, they should come after the prosecutor and be like, Hey, you need to prepare me.

Right, right. Absolutely. And I talked about ways to prepare for, um, different types of testimony, whether it's trial, a motion, a deposition, how that differs. I talked about the difference between even things like I don't remember versus I don't recall, and why that's such an important distinction, and I gave them some tips on, hey, if your prosecutor doesn't reach out to you, to you, here's how you can reach out. It's okay to ask them to rephrase questions that best meet the way that you wanna explain it based on your practice and your expertise.

I know that sometimes I don't know if it's a little bit of ego or, or just lack of resources, but sometimes prosecutors don't like to reach out and, and try to kind of like learn more. Yeah. So what would be like your recommendation for prosecutors that may not be super familiar with animal law?

Yeah, I know it's hard because dockets are big. Everybody's busy. Things come at you fast, but treat it just like we do any other area. And that was an example I gave in the masterclass was there are a lot of prosecutors who aren't familiar with firearms. They don't own them, never shot them, never handled a firearm. But you still have to have a base level of understanding. And when you talk to a firearms expert, you can't ask a question that doesn't make any sense. Like, oh, well, was the the shell casing loaded into the magazine? Like that doesn't make sense for anybody who has a basic understanding of firearms. So you have to educate yourself at a base level. Um, and so I encourage them to treat animal cases like you would a firearms case or like you would a sex crimes case where you're gonna have to look into that area of law and meet with the experts who have the knowledge.

Excellent. Is there anything that we haven't discussed that you, that you want people to know about? Um, oh gosh. It was four hours of hour trying to figure out if

I missed anything. But No, I mean, the, the, the, the moral of the story is work together, educate yourself. Um, don't be afraid to reach out and let's have more of a collaborative, um, response and effort in getting these cases across the finish line.

Fantastic. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having

me. I appreciate it.

Excellent. All right, so this last, uh, presentation was on crime scene investigations and Susan Pratt, thank you so much for being here and for doing this interview and for that great presentation. Thank you. So can you tell us, uh, tell already audience what was the overall purpose of the presentation that you give today?

Um, so it's the collection preservation, um, and packaging pretty much of evidence, whether it is, um, on the human side or the animal side. And how to package it appropriately so that when it goes to court, um, that we are able to do a great presentation, um, on behalf of the state attorney's office.

What, what would you say is your audience for this kind of a presentation?

So this is more the people out in the field. So if they have to come across the scene or a situation, the information that they receive today would help them to identify, photograph collect. And, submit into their lab, all of the, you know, whether it's trace evidence, physical evidence, anything to that effect, so that they can get the right processing completed. I.

I think that, um, you know, in in animal cruelty cases there's a lot of emotion because, you know, there are hurt animals and the people that are there usually are there because they love animals. And the first instinct is to run and grab that animal and take it out to safety. But that should not be it, right?

No, because if you've got an animal, um, that has some kind of evidence on it, you know, we want to make sure to collect everything that we possibly can because in some cases. You know, you are their voice now. Uh, it's like, you know, if there's a, a dead body, you know, you are the only one that can speak for them. And that's why I think that that's part of my, the most important part of my job is the idea that, you know, I need to take a step back sometimes and make sure that the collection is appropriate in order to, um, get the, um, get the best results as possible. So the most important part of my job is that I cannot, I speak for those that cannot. Speak any longer for themselves. And so rushing into grab an animal or rushing in to grab a person, um, and trying to get them to safety might not be the best option for that individual, whether it's a person or a dog. Um, because we wanna make sure that we can collect everything that is necessary, um, and be able to get that analyzed and processed. The next step is to make sure that that animal or that person is getting the care, uh, whether it's medical or nutrition that they need to get. So just not running in and grabbing it immediately.

From when I did my, my forensics classes. You know, there are right ways and wrong ways of collecting evidence and there is so much difference based on the type of evidence that you collect that it can get really confusing. So if we're talking with humane officers about evidence collection and they don't know what to do, what kinda resources can they look into?

Well, e each state has a crime lab. Um, and so I would suggest that they contact the crime lab and it's all online. They can look it up and, um, see what kind of, uh, direction or information that that crime lab is here in the state of Florida. We have FDLE, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, and with them, we actually have an online, um. Uh, an online manual and we have people that we can contact if we get stumped and okay, it's not in the manual. What do we do next? Um, so FDLE has been very helpful.

Fantastic. Is there anything in closing that you feel it's important to let our audience know?

If you see something, say something. Um, because again. They can't speak for themselves.

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for doing this and thank you for your great presentation.

Thank you very much. I appreciate having you here.