Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (00:00)
like to start when describing it is that we're looking at a child's...
behavior through the lens that their behavior is some sort of longing for connection or longing to be seen, longing to be heard, something around that
Courtney (00:18)
Welcome back to Kids These Days, insights for every stage of child and family development. I'm Dr. Courtney Lynn. If you've ever found yourself in a boiling point moment with your child, where a simple request turns into a door slamming explosion, then today's episode is for you. As parents, our instinct is often to jump straight to consequences and fixes. But what if those behaviors are actually unclear signals of a much deeper longing for connection?
Joining me today is a true master of the attachment lens, Emma Abel Loach. Emma is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she is also the clinical director at Thrive Couple and Family Counseling Services.
Emma is a certified emotionally focused therapist and also a certified supervisor in emotionally focused couples therapy, individual therapy, and family therapy. As an AAMFT approved supervisor, she is a high level specialist who helps clinicians and families navigate the deepest layers of relational loops. Today, we are slowing down the family cycle to look at the stories we tell ourselves about our kids and the stories they are telling themselves about us.
Emma is going to help us move from being fixers to becoming the anchor our children need even in the middle of a storm. We're going from the human doing of parenting back into the heart of the human being.
Dr. Courtney (01:43)
Hi Emma, how are you?
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (01:45)
I'm doing well, how are you?
Dr. Courtney (01:47)
doing pretty well. I'm really excited to chat about families today and just the cycles that we get caught in with our kids. feel like it's very relevant to probably everyone listening to this podcast.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (02:01)
Yeah,
relevant to all parents.
Dr. Courtney (02:04)
All parents exactly.
Yes, exactly. Can you give us a little bit of maybe like your background in working with families and what brought you to like learning about kind of family cycles and how we get caught in these cycles with our kids?
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (02:22)
Yeah, so I have a master's and a specialist degree in marriage and family therapy. So I knew going into my career that I wanted to work with couples and families. then through my just like pre-licensed state of working towards becoming a licensed marriage and family therapist, I had a couple of supervisors that were EFT therapists. And so that's what really piqued my interest in EFT.
which is emotionally focused so as I was like learning and growing in the EFT model, there became more research on EFFT, which is emotionally focused family therapy. and I wanted to use it because I saw how well it worked with couples. I was like, well, I have to see how this would apply to my work with families.
and just like completely ate it up. I was like, this all makes sense. I love an attachment lens and attachment framework for making sense of like family systems and family interactions and how it impacts both children and parents. So I worked my way through the whole EFFT training pretty quickly and now I use it when I work with couples. And so I'm a certified ⁓ therapist and supervisor in emotionally focused family therapy.
Dr. Courtney (03:34)
Amazing. Yeah, I agree. And I know we'll kind of dive into things more. But it just makes sense. whenever I talk with families, I always kind of outline, like, from a behavioral standpoint, this is what it would look like. But there's all these other things kind of going on underneath the surface that are not getting talked about. And so to your point, really focusing on that attachment, it just kind of makes sense with work with families. Yes.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (03:59)
Hmm, it really does.
Dr. Courtney (04:01)
Well for people who did not listen to our first episode that was on the emotionally focused like couples therapy cycle that we get caught in and so what we're gonna talk about today is very similar to that Emma do you maybe want to start with kind of describing the emotionally focused like family cycle that we can get caught in with our kids?
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (04:23)
I can. ⁓ So the emotionally focused family cycle basically describes ongoing interactions between parents and children. So it could be interactions as like, I don't know, mundane as like.
dinner and somebody doesn't want the dinner that's being served or something as like escalated as like a teenager who's like really highly acting out. So the premise of it is that all interactions between parents and children help shape the way the parent feels about themselves as a parent and then also shapes the way a child sees themselves ⁓ as a person, as a human.
Dr. Courtney (04:38)
Right.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (05:01)
The one thing I'll be careful to say, I don't know if this was talked about in the couples cycle episode you did, is that children should not be responsible for their parents' emotions or their parents' behavior. So it's a little bit different that it's just kind of one loop, it's not two loops going at the same time. But the plays I like to start when describing it is that we're looking at a child's...
behavior through the lens that their behavior is some sort of longing for connection or longing to be seen, longing to be heard, something around that
category. So when the child does something, way that the parent makes sense of that behavior would of course then determine what the parent does in response to that behavior.
So I'm trying to think of a silly, easy example. Like if, if a kid is just like really quiet after school, and the parent tells himself like, they're just decompressing and they just need some space. Then the parent's going to show up differently than a parent who says, my God, they had the worst day ever. Now they're not talking to me because they don't want to talk to me. And my goodness gracious. And then they give a more anxious response. So what I'm, what I'm doing in the therapist role is looking at how is the parent making sense of their child's behaviors? And then how is that?
meaning making or story that the parent holds about themselves or holds about their child playing a role and how they're responding, like what's the response the child ends up getting. So that's one half of it. Then the other half of it is that when the parent is giving that response, how was the child making sense of that response?
Dr. Courtney (06:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (06:33)
which depends on the child's age, we know, and just their, their level of developmental maturity or emotional intelligence. But some, some older kids can go, my gosh, my, my mom or my dad is stressed. And so I just need to be quiet and give them some space. if they see more of a response, it doesn't make sense to them. or other kids might go more to, my gosh, I did something wrong. I really messed up.
I need to change my behavior. I need to get louder. I need to do something to try to help my parents start to attune to me more. And most of this goes on pretty unconscious for most children. then the way that the child is making sense of their parents' response then shapes the way that the child views their parent, which then in turn shapes how a child sees themself. Am I good or bad? Am I loved or not loved? then how is the child's
sense of themself then showing up and how clear or unclear their reaches are back to their parent the next time an interaction like this happens. And so I'll move the circle.
Dr. Courtney (07:29)
OK.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm like, OK, I'm following along. So there is something the child does, like some sort of behavior, and we can give some examples. And then the parent has an internal dialogue of how they're viewing that behavior. The child doesn't necessarily know what they're thinking. And the parent reacts. The child, internally, is having some sort of thought or feeling about what the parent just did. And then they react.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (07:47)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (07:57)
even though none of those things are being said.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (08:01)
Right, right. On the outside we might just see a kid being quiet after school and the parent in the car also being quiet and now we've gone through like 20 minutes of just silence in the car. More of the literal opposite where we have somebody screaming and crying and another person screaming and crying and we also just don't know the stories that are happening on the inside.
Dr. Courtney (08:10)
right.
Yeah, it seems like the stories, right, if we just focus on the things that are going on, like, OK, well, how can we problem solve, you know, when you get in the car that you can talk more about your day? We're really kind of missing the whole point.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (08:36)
Right, it would be important to understand exactly what is the parent and child's unspoken or maybe sometimes even unrealized intention or longing or fear that's also going on at the surface that then might make them more prone or sensitive to interpreting these cues through the thing that they're scared of happening or the thing that they really want to have happen.
Dr. Courtney (09:00)
Okay, I'm gonna give an example. I'll do like a teenage example. All right, so let's see a teenager goes up to their parent. Hey, my friend Johnny wants me to hang out with him tonight. We're gonna go over to Billy's house. I'm making this up. And the parent says, no, you're not going tonight. I don't know Billy's parents unless I can talk to Billy's parents.
You're not going. And then the teenager storms off, slams the door, and the parent's like, OK, you just lost your car for a week. Something along those lines. Right. Yeah, exactly. So how would you help a family slow that down? Because there's a lot there.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (09:29)
Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Very common interaction.
Yeah. Yeah. So first I would, I would want to start with, either the parent or the child, just to make sense of how they first interpreted the moment where they felt like the interaction went wrong. so might ask the team, like, how did it feel? How did you feel even asking your parent in the first place? And if they're like, yeah, I feel like I can ask these things. It really felt like it went sideways when I got shut down, or it really felt like it went sideways when I got punished for going to my room.
Dr. Courtney (10:04)
Okay.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (10:20)
Like I'd want to try to pinpoint the spot where the child in this case started to feel like they weren't being seen or they weren't being heard or where was the story that started to cause them some distress. So my guess based on that interaction, it would be after the parents at that boundary if you can't go to somebody's house that I haven't spoken to their parents with.
Dr. Courtney (10:42)
Sure, we'll go there. Yeah.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (10:43)
right? Lots of disappointment, lots of anger,
maybe lots of backstory of I never get to do what I want to or something like that. That then caused them to go to their room versus tell their parents about those emotions. Right? Like that was ⁓ my guess is be an unclear signal of some sort of attachment need or attachment longing was at play there. Right? Like it felt better to me in that moment to go away from my parent than to keep staying with them and tell them what I was feeling.
Dr. Courtney (10:54)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, okay.
Yes.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (11:09)
so I'd want to help understand what was going on with the child in that moment. and then similarly, cause parents are just as important as the child in these moments. Like where did it start to feel like it was going wrong for the parent? Right? Was it as soon as the kid asked this request, they were like, they know this boundary and they're asking me again, like this, something about this moment's not feeling good. Or is it the moment that they stormed off? Like, Hey, I we'd had this conversation before and it's confusing why you stormed off when I said no.
Dr. Courtney (11:35)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (11:36)
Now I don't know what else to do other than take your car away. But similarly, try to figure out like where what happened to the parent where their own distress became so big that their ability to stay engaged or curious with their child started to become harder and harder to access. Right, like all parents, all people in the whole world and should be.
like really good at paying attention to the moments in their important relationships where some sort of distress starts to happen. Right? So most parents, I'm going to maybe even venture all parents are very attuned to the moment where their relationship with their kid isn't feeling as good as they want it to. And those moments can feel really scary or really infuriating to parents, myself included. And in those moments, like that, that fear or that infuriation, like
Dr. Courtney (12:06)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (12:28)
takes over, right? We don't really have access to, I wonder what's going on to my teenager who's pushing me away right now. Right? We go to, how do I stop this? How do I make sure this doesn't happen again? And those feelings end up being the thing, of course, that then our child gets to see, right? They don't get a chance to hear about all the juicy, yummy fears and longings for closeness that are actually happening under the surface.
Dr. Courtney (12:55)
Okay, so it sounds like the first thing would be to figure out from everyone's perspective, where did things start to break down? Like where was that like disconnect, you know, between the child reaching out to mom and asking for, you know, to go hang out with friends and then mom's reaction, like where did things kind of break down from there? Okay, so let's say mom says, and you can tell me if I'm.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (13:02)
Thank
Dr. Courtney (13:21)
maybe jumping ahead. But mom was like, well, the moment he asked me to go over to Billy's house, I knew, I didn't know the parents. I assumed they would probably be drinking there. I'm terrified of him starting to drink in high school. That won't go over well. So I said, no. And then maybe for the kid, it's,
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (13:43)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (13:46)
She doesn't trust me, she never lets me do anything fun. All my friends get to do things that I don't. I have strict parents.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (13:57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So this is a really good question. So in emotionally focused family therapy anyway, the preferred slash like research backed focus would be to start with the parents and help the parents start to send clearer care taking signals to their child.
Dr. Courtney (13:59)
Then what do we do once we can identify those things?
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (14:24)
which is literally only because we don't want to even miss signal the idea that a child should be responsible for changing their behavior to keep their parents happier, help their parents show up better. Right? We want to help parents maintain that kind of like curious, even in distressed lens of, something here's not going well. Let me check in with myself first so that I can get the resources or the space, the,
self-soothing even, that I need regulation that I need to then be able to show up better. So I'd want to start with the parent in this space, Like, freaking course it's scary to like have your kid go somewhere where you don't know where all of these unsafe things could be happening, right? You've got every right to feel scared there and to want to set a boundary there, right? Boundaries are not bad in parenting. They're really important.
Dr. Courtney (14:50)
regulation. Yeah.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (15:14)
And then when our kids have a reaction to those boundaries, we want to make sure that we get curious, that we stay in caretaker role, but we still hold the boundary. Right? Like being a tuned parent doesn't mean, well, my kid wants a drink. And so I need to go let them go someplace, even though I don't know the parents and I don't know that they're going to drive home safely. Right? It just means we need to make sense of why, why does, what does my kid feel like I'm not getting, or I'm not seeing here so that our relationship and their sense of connection with me stays intact even while I hold this boundary.
I would be working to help the parents start to get permission there, right? Your fear is good. means you love your child. means you want them to be safe. Your boundary is good, right? Kids need boundaries so that they know how to show up in the world and what's okay and what's not okay. but how do you think your, what do you think was the message maybe that your kid got whenever you, whenever they went to your room and your next response was?
giving them a consequence for going to their room, giving them a consequence for having those feelings. Everything up to that point makes sense to me. I don't know that person. Here's a boundary. We've got a big reaction. And then something about having that big reaction, I'm guessing, like, don't know what to do here other than I'm going to take something away because this doesn't feel good to me. And it sure doesn't feel good to my kid either.
Dr. Courtney (16:13)
Right.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (16:33)
So I would want to start helping the parents see that. You didn't do anything wrong by having a boundary that your kid had big feelings to. But what we want to do is find the space or the time where your kid is approachable again, or you know that they want you to approach them to go say, hey, I still want to hear what's important to you here. I want to workshop with you to find ways that I can.
show up for you and help make sure you've got connection and experiences and aren't getting rejected in school, but also in ways that are helping you stay safe. Can we work together here to make sure that you feel seen by me, but I'm also still doing my job as your parent?
Dr. Courtney (17:11)
Well, you just said several great things. I think that are so important one Yeah, that the parent right is really the one you know and I say this to couples all the time if we're talking about parent things like yeah in a You know couple partnership or even friendship. There's like this give-and-take with the kids
there's a give, right? Like it's our job to, you know, kind of where they're feeling connected and everything, they don't really have to take care of our emotions or give us anything in return, which is so important and so difficult. And then, you know, when you were saying that it's okay to set a boundary, right? You know, I think...
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (17:48)
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (17:50)
Tone also, I think I was probably a little snappy when I gave the example. ⁓ you know, tone probably matters. ⁓ But yeah, they still might not be able to go to a friend's house if you don't know the parent and you know there's gonna be alcohol there. Like that makes sense. But it's how do we, if I'm getting it, like how do we respond to our child in a way where even when we set those boundaries, they still feel like, okay, that's stupid. And I disagree and I hate that.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (17:53)
Yeah.
Okay. ⁓
Dr. Courtney (18:20)
And I feel kind of at least understood why I got so upset with it. Is that?
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (18:27)
Yeah, yeah, as you're saying that back to me, another line is coming to my head and I wish I could remember where I heard But I once heard that it really doesn't matter what happens to kids, like what matters is how they're safe people in their life help them make sense of what happened to them. So that's the spot if I'm going back to that original cycle that really matters. Right. So so kid does some sort of protest behavior.
Right, parent has some sort of feeling or story about it that influences how they respond. Right, and then the parent's response ends up shaping how the kid is making sense of their parents and making sense of themself, and then in turn influencing how they're gonna show up in the next version of this interaction. Right, so the important part that is the parent's job is to then go see if they can understand how did my kid make sense of why I did what I did and how are they feeling about themself right now.
Right, how can I make sure that they still have safety with me so that I don't get even a less signal next time, right? I don't have a kid that's not gonna ask me next time and it's just gonna go do it alone because they didn't like how this went, right? How would I make sure that the safety that those lines are still open that my kid knows I'm not thinking you're stupid for asking me this or I hate that you asked me this or I don't know. I don't get what it's like to be a teenager, right? We wanna make sure that those potential stories.
that the kids are pulling from those less pleasant interactions are retold through co-regulation so that the cycle can stay more open rather than start to get more and more closed off.
Dr. Courtney (20:02)
Okay, okay, and I think, you know, this situation, yeah, it was like a teenager situation, but same thing would happen, you know, a younger kid, can I have ice cream? Nope, you can't have ice cream, we're getting ready to eat dinner. You're the worst parent ever.
goes off and storms in their room, fine, well you just lost ice cream for a week. It's the same exact thing, so insert anything. ⁓ Any situation can probably fit the mold. So, okay, the teen in this example goes to their room. You're saying at that point, parent kind of regulates and then goes and gets curious. Okay, because yeah, just throwing that consequence down, maybe sends the message like I can't get.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (20:25)
Thank
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (20:45)
upset or I guess I can't tell my parents anything that I'm going to do because I'm just going to lose my car. So why would I even ask next time? Or same thing. I guess if they're going to say I can't eat ice cream and I'm going to lose ice cream for a week, I might as well just eat it without them knowing because I'm probably going to get in trouble anyway. either way. OK. So how would the parent, I guess in that situation, like an ideal world approach the child from there who just got really upset?
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (20:56)
just get messed up.
Right. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (21:15)
went to their room, slammed their door.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (21:16)
Yeah, that's a good question. we want to go in, parents want to go in as regulated as possible, right? We want to make sure that either we had our own support system or our own kind of protocol internally to get balanced, right? We're not going to be good at being curious. We're not going to be good at co-regulation if we're still in a state of panic or a state of rage.
So once we feel like we've got a grasp on our side of what happened, yeah, that was scary to me. And yep, I was frustrated because I had a bad day and I've answered this question before and I totally got snappy. Right. Once we can put our half of it together, then we're going to be much better at going and finding our child to then go help them make sense of what happened to, how we get, how we help them, the child make sense of what happens depends on age.
but, but basically what we want to do is make sure that we are helping rewrite whatever protective interpretation or, just untrue interpretation our, our child pulled in those moments. so the, the protocol I tend to want to give parents is to start with something safe, right? Like I saw.
you there and I get that that sucked. get that my response probably was not the one you wanted and that's why you did what you did. Right, just something that's kind of like evening the playing field. I'm not coming in to say why'd go to your room or you remember we've talked about this before right we don't want to go straight to correcting children that can still feel like a punishment unless we're starting with something that helps them feel seen and understood. Even like
Dr. Courtney (22:34)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (22:53)
hey, I saw you do that, and I want to understand more about why you had that response, right? Like that's still coming in with some sort of curiosity versus just going straight to the correction. So either some kind of like, hey, I see you, and that makes sense, or hey, I see you, and I need your help making sense of why you had the response that you did. Then parents can start to orient themselves to maybe what just happened to their child that we
actually want to try to focus the repair around the correction around. So if we get some sort of response like you always say no, never, you don't let me have friends. Like then we know, okay, that's the story we need to go be in. Right? If it's, if it's, don't know, trying to think of something you, you told me last time that I could go the next time I asked you and you said no again. And so I can't trust you to be consistent. There's another one.
We want to, we want to try to figure out the story that our kid got and then just shore them up with so much empathy, right? And again, empathy doesn't mean we don't have boundary. just means I can see that if that's what you were remembering and that's how you saw me show up or yeah, I can totally own that I was not in the best mood right there. And I took it out on you. And of course that felt awful. I'm so sorry. Right. If we're starting there, that helps build that safety.
Dr. Courtney (23:56)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (24:16)
can help start to re-regulate our child's nervous system so that they have a chance to then be able to hear more of kind of like a left brain logical rewrite of the interaction. So once we see some signs that our kids are like softening, they're re-engaging, their nervous systems look more calm, then we can move forward with the second half of the repair process, which is that kind of retelling of the story.
Right. So I get that it sucked when I said no, and I want to help you understand why I said no. And I want to see if you and I can figure out together, like where there's some flexibility or wiggle room or both of us feel good about progressing. Right. Like just naming those intentions. I don't know very many children, even teens at that point who would say like, no, not interested. That happens. It's probably just meant that cycles gone on for a really, really long time.
Dr. Courtney (24:57)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (25:11)
And just continued consistency around it is like the best antidote to breaking out of like really, really rigidly closed off kids.
Dr. Courtney (25:21)
Yeah, well, and I'm thinking too, yeah, probably is building a lot of trust as well. Because as you were saying that and like, okay, if we're gonna go through and kind of, you know, like do just like the rational, logical, what happened in the story, it really, one, parents have to be really good at taking accountability because we can't say, no, I didn't yell, actually.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (25:43)
Mm-hmm.
Love you all.
Dr. Courtney (25:49)
No, like we have
to be able to say, yes, I did yell or yes, I was in a bad mood and said that snappy because then that just also then the kids like, well, now I don't even trust you because.
That's not what happened. So being able to take that accountability, I think, is so important. And for the parent to stay regulated as well. But like you're saying, if the kid still is closed off, it really is just continuing to build that ⁓ trust. I imagine that to have this vulnerable conversation with your parent, there has to be trust built up that they're not going to.
use it against you or something in the future. Or that they are going to actually, if we agree to something, that they're actually going to follow through with it from there.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (26:32)
Yeah, yeah, right. Not turn it around. It's like, I can see why that's sad. And that's dumb for being sad, right?
Dr. Courtney (26:38)
I can see why that's sad and
yeah, you shouldn't feel that way. I know, well, it's so hard because even in the repair, I don't know your experience with families. I imagine for parents, there's still like a part that wants to fix the kid's emotion too. Like I'm just thinking this is a lot of work, right? For everyone involved because if their kid is upset, of course they don't want their kid to be upset. So it's like, well, this is why I did it. So now you shouldn't be upset, but.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (26:43)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Great.
Dr. Courtney (27:07)
They're still probably going to be upset that they can't go to the party.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (27:11)
Right, right. Having upset kids does not mean you're a bad parent or something that needs to be stopped. Yeah, right. Just that, I don't know, it's kind of a, I think a reframe that's getting stronger over time, but I still know it's very hard to do, right? That like, if my kid is upset at me or my kid is mad at me or hurt by something I did, right? My job is not to take away their feelings. It's just to, again, catch them in those feelings and make it feel safer that they can start to talk to me about those feelings.
Dr. Courtney (27:17)
Right.
Right, fixing them or telling them not to have them doesn't make it easier the next time. And we might say those things. We might say, I see that you're mad and you shouldn't be mad because this is the rule and this is just the way that it is. So we can't be perfect 100 % of the time. OK, let's say parents are working on this cycle. They're identifying things. And then.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (27:46)
rate.
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (28:08)
You know, one day they just can't handle it and they're just not able to stay regulated because we're human beings and that happens. Yeah, what would be some guidance for parents in those situations?
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (28:10)
So.
Great.
Yeah, well, like literally the exact same thing would just need to happen again, right? Like probably when we do that, we're going to see some sort of either either protest or protective move from a kid. Right. And again, it is, it is okay to not catch these things a hundred percent time in real time.
Dr. Courtney (28:22)
Right.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (28:39)
Right, like even afterwards, like I think our bodies are also a pretty good gauge of what feels good or not good, right? So even if we're like, why am I feeling like just disconnected from my child today? Or why am I feeling like that was not a good interaction? Like it is perfectly fine to go get curious about those moments, to go follow up with them, right? Because part of the cool thing about this cycle is that the more and more...
sharper, I guess we are kind of like catching it or kind of holding that lens of like what's a protest behavior or a protective behavior in our child. And then offering the repair around those moments, our kids start to send clearer and clearer signals back to us, right? So over time, the kid will start to say, hey, that didn't feel good the way you talked to me, right? Like our kids can kind of start to help us be like, oh yeah, you're right. That was not my finest moment. again, even if it's hard to hear in the moment.
Dr. Courtney (29:28)
Thank
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (29:31)
Once that safety between parent and child is established, we're not completely on own to track this relationship, especially as the kid starts to get older.
Dr. Courtney (29:40)
Right. Well, and yeah, we probably can't catch it even after the fact all the time. And I will admit, sometimes I say something and I'm like, I know that upset people in my house and I'm going to move on with my day. And I can tell that shifted the energy in the room. And you know what? That's fine for today. That's all I have. I think if we...
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (30:00)
all I have in my body.
Dr. Courtney (30:06)
We're still human, right? And so, you know, the idea that we have to try to catch every single time anyone feels anything is probably unrealistic and difficult and puts so much pressure on parents and families.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (30:07)
Thanks, mom.
Yeah.
Yeah, it actually is something like a third of the time it has to happen in order for like a relationship to have those more secure reaches to parents. Like it's not anywhere close to a hundred, a third. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Courtney (30:20)
Right.
Right, a third of the time for the repair. Yeah,
so we can mess up, you know, ⁓ two thirds of the time and just move on with our day or not catch it or any, and they will still be fine. Yeah, it's always very important. Okay, so when, I guess, is it important, I don't know, for parents to kind of hold this cycle?
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (30:42)
Yes, yes, yes.
Dr. Courtney (30:51)
in mind, like even if they're not good at stopping it, but I guess, I don't know, like what advice would you have for parents who are nodding their heads? Like, okay, yes, we definitely do this. and yeah, where do I go? Where do I go?
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (31:00)
Hmm.
Yeah, I think that the two starting points, maybe would even just be good enough, right, would be that if we can start to make sense of our children through that, how are they signaling their emotion to me lens, right, that...
Dr. Courtney (31:21)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (31:23)
I don't know, even just that lens, which again, takes more of a regulated space, but like, okay, where are some ways that I can just kind of start to notice today even? Like, how does my kid try to connect with me? How do they respond when I upset them? And just starting with that kind of like detective mindset, I've found a lot of success in, right? Like, cause not every single kid is wanting a hug when they're upset, right? Like even as adults, right? Some of us want hugs, some of us want.
Dr. Courtney (31:39)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (31:50)
space and then we want to come back and just talk and we never want the physical touch at all. Right? So just getting to know what are the ways that my kid naturally or already just shows me when they're feeling something or needing something from me can start to help me at least tune in better to those moments that I might normally miss or I might normally have my own reaction to because I'm telling myself something that's distressing to me.
And then the other one that I like is just that any interaction we're having with our child, like we are sharing responsibility for and sharing is an important word there, right? We're not fully responsible for every single interaction we have with our child because they're a human too. But also our child's not fully responsible for why interactions go poorly either. So even if we can just get comfortable and find maybe even some like...
Dr. Courtney (32:28)
Mm-hmm.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (32:37)
I don't know, comfort in that notion of this is a relationship. And so there's shared contribution to why it's going the way it's going. And my job as the parent is just to be able to notice those signs where something happens, some sign of distress is happening. And then either in the moment or afterwards, start to reflect on even just a third of the time, like what happened to me when my child did that? And then can I go...
If and when I have the bandwidth, the resources, my kids got the bandwidth and resources to go start to rewrite those stories together.
Dr. Courtney (33:13)
Right, yeah, to make sense of it without that heightened emotion that is going on. Yeah, it's hard because, you know, I'm thinking of the child shutting down in the car, like you said. Parents can make up so many stories about what is going on and react from there that understanding what's going on for them and the stories that they're telling themselves so that they can get curious is probably, yeah, more helpful than just jumping to they're rude and disrespectful.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (33:37)
Okay.
Right, it's a really good one, right? My kid could be hungry, they could be overstimulated, they could be telling me they don't feel safe talking to me, but we don't really know, right? We can't make those assumptions without being able to ask our kids about them in times when they're in a more accessible space.
Dr. Courtney (33:44)
for instance. Right.
Yes, yes. Well, what is one last thing for parents who are probably overwhelmed right now hearing this and recognizing that they do this 500 million times a day? One last thing that you want parents to know or to hear.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (34:17)
just that you're not like every single parent in the world has that interaction 500 times a day, right? so I just think the fact that you're getting curious about yourself or getting curious about your kid is more than a lot of us got for a long time.
Dr. Courtney (34:32)
Right. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. No, is helpful. There wouldn't be a cycle if other people didn't do it. Besides, there wouldn't be textbooks and research on these things if it was just your family. All parents go through these things with their kids. Yeah, that is comforting to know. Yes. Well, Emma, thank you so much for coming on the show and kind of shedding light on the cycles that we can get caught in with our kids and how we can help slow those down. think it's been
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (34:33)
Like it's a y'all.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Courtney (35:02)
Yeah, really helpful.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (35:04)
good, I'm glad. I love talking about it and I love talking to other parents about it too. Like at the very least it's normalizing and at the very most we can help be like hey have you thought about it this way or hold on to this next time? Like it's so much benefit just being able to talk about parenting moments.
Dr. Courtney (35:20)
Yes, yeah, exactly. If nothing else, you're not alone. If nothing else, yes, normal again. Perfect, all right. Well, have a good rest of your day.
Emma Abel Loach, LMFT (35:23)
Yeah, yeah.
Thank you, you too.
Courtney (35:35)
That was Emma Abel-Loach and I hope her perspective provided some steady ground for you today. My biggest takeaway from our conversation is that our children's protest behaviors, the slamming doors, the silence in the car, the yelling, are actually invitations to see what is underneath. Emma reminded us that it isn't our job to take away our children's big feelings, but to be the safe haven where they can make sense of them. If you're feeling overwhelmed by the thought of catching every single cycle,
Remember Emma's one third rule. We only have to get the repair right about one third of the time to build a secure attachment.
If you are interested in learning more about emotionally focused family therapy, I have linked Emma's practice as well as integrated behavioral health in the show notes.
our new workbook on identifying these cycles with your parenting partner. If you found this episode helpful, please rate our podcast 5 stars and leave a review. Your support helps us reach more families looking for their anchor. Remember, you don't have to be perfect to be a great parent. We are all learning about how to raise kids these days.