[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:04] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to How to be Human.

[00:00:07] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness

[00:00:11] Nina Endrst: On this episode, Anna and I discussed Tarot.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat.

Hello again. Hello. I was going to be like, this is how we do it. Cuz this how

we don't

before you hit record, I felt like something you had said had prompted that in my brain. And then I forget that once we hit record y'all don't know what we were talking about prior. Won't always about

[00:00:41] Nina Endrst: death and destruction.

That's

[00:00:43] Anna Toonk: all use the use

[00:00:47] Nina Endrst: actually, though. It is a huge part of why I do love Tara, which is our subject today because when things are so fucked up and out of control, it's nice to have an. and some

[00:01:00] Anna Toonk: hope. I agree. And it's, I think it's kind of funny how the different subgroups of spirituality and things like, I don't know, like I think it's, I think Tara, obviously I'm on team Tara.

It's an incredible anchor, but we're not like team breathwork who thinks it will fix every problem in your life. um, don't get me started on that. I know, but I mean, obviously breathwork is, you know, uh, breathing, it, it, it, I was getting coffee this morning and the sweet barista. I really like, she was like, oh, I've just been struggling a little bit with anxiety and, you know, stuff like that.

And, and I was like, oh, well, what's what's going on. You know? And, um, she was telling me, and I was like, this is gonna sound nuts. But sometimes just try before it gets like too out of control to just. Breathe deeply. And she's like, you know what? You're like the third person to tell me that. And I was like, listen, I'm not the, like, I'm not saying it, like, just take a deep breath.

I was like, but it literally tricks your nervous system and calms it down. I was like, I'm offering it. Cuz it does work. She was like, thanks. And I appreciate like the attitude towards it. And I was like, it's so funny. How so much is about like the delivery of information? Yeah. Which is TA Tara was like, let's deliver a ton of information.

So Tara by definition, which I was curious to see how the dictionaries. did they do us dirty or were, would we agree with the definition? And I think we'll mostly agree with it. It's known playing cards. Don't agree with that. I mean, I guess technically they are playing cards, but you could just say cards traditionally, a pack of 75 with five suits used for fortune telling.

And especially in Europe, in certain games, the suits are typically swords cups, coins, or pinnacles battons or wands, and a permanent suit of Trump. Terror is a powerful way of revealing the truth about your life. A card game played Pitaro cards, Aero card, I guess this is a little bit of. spoiler, maybe, but there's much about, um, there's lots of deter folklore about where it came from and where it came from is Italy.

It did not come from Egypt. It's not some mystical thing that was like found in a desert once upon a time, but it was a European or it was an Italian. And I think that we, we see, we there's evidence of it in France as well, but it, the word taro comes from Toki, which is Italian. And we, the first deck we know of was created by Bonna Fatio Bebo or bibe in the 14 hundreds.

So 14 hundreds.

[00:04:15] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I always 14. It's like mid, mid 15th, but

[00:04:18] Anna Toonk: it's 14, 14. And that, wow. And largely, if you look at that deck, which I believe is the vis Conze Forza, but could be the, the mechi. But anyway, if you look at that deck, the structure is almost exactly as it is today. Like the, of the major. I mean, I'd say the minors as well is almost exactly like it is, but the first decks and part of why we don't have them, I mean, you can, in Europe, you can sometimes in, at flea markets and things like that, you can find, uh, vintage decks.

And I have some which maybe I'll put that in our subs stack. I'll put photos of them, but I have some from the 18 hundreds and things like that. But part of why. It's rare to find them is cuz they were all done by hand so they haven't survived. And that's part of why, you know, we don't really see this like big rise in TA and see more decks.

And the spiritualists in the 18 hundreds start to create taro. I think closer to how we know it today. That's when the writer weight, the writer weight is published in the early 19 hundreds and it's because of the modern day printing press. That that's part of why the writer weight became the standard is it was able to much like startups work these days of trying to dominate the market because of mass printing.

It was able to be out in the world. And then, uh, because of Pamela Coleman Smith pixie, um, illustrating the minor Arana, all of a sudden it had all this renewed interest. And I don't know if you've ever heard of this is something. I learned today. And I don't know if you've ever heard of the French deck, the et, which, um, I believe means like star.

I'm not, I do, I do not speak French, but that was a pseudonym of this Frenchman, um, Jean Baptist Elliott. And he had really started doing, he created the first, the first definitive guy to TA in the, in the late 17 hundreds under his pseudonym of et Teya, which is also a deck that often when you're, if you just look on eBay for very old taro decks or, or something like that, or Etsy, I see him on both very often what you will will see, especially if it is French is an et.

I had no idea. I thought it was just like a kind of deck. That's what, um, Leticia Barbie had helped me. understand, but I didn't know that there was, um, a man who had his secret, you know, TA identity. I did not know that either. so wait, so what was your first deck? I

[00:07:20] Nina Endrst: think it was, was it, I honestly can't remember.

Wait, what was my first stack? Was it Ry? Maybe it, no, it wasn't Ry, you know what? I think it was, I think it was rider. Wait, but then one of the one, the ones I used to use all the time was the wild, unknown. I used to use that like for years and years and years. And, but I think the writer was the first one I got, I think, but, but I don't know what was, what was in my house when I was growing up.

That doesn't count. What was my first probably writer. Yeah. What was

[00:07:56] Anna Toonk: yours? My first was the wild unknown, and it did not speak to me. . I mean, I wanted it to, and like, everyone looked so cool and I was seeing it everywhere, you know? And it was like white noise. I got nothing from it. I couldn't memorize it.

Like, and then I got the mother piece and I was like, oh, I speak this language. I had no idea that I spoke. It was the weirdest thing. I hear

[00:08:27] Nina Endrst: you on that. I think that there, what was the deck that I felt that I felt like that about that recently came in. Oh, you know what? The deck that I, that really, really speaks to me the most is

[00:08:38] Anna Toonk: the, um, oh

[00:08:40] Nina Endrst: God, what is it called?

Use it all the time. Oh my God. Apparition. Literally blanking. Yeah. That one. I, that one, I get the most out of

[00:08:46] Anna Toonk: I, um, spirit general. I mean, yeah. She's unreal. All of her lives. I don't

[00:08:53] Nina Endrst: have mother peace. I wanna get. I don't have

[00:08:56] Anna Toonk: that one. Yeah, it's fun. It it's the pretty much the only deck I read with for clients, you know, like it just, I just get it.

I think some of it for me is that it was created. I mean, it's a little bit controversial and problematic now because two white women created it and it's a deck. That's a lot about the history kind of, of, I guess women through the lens of terror, but it's, um, indigenous cultures, African tribes, things like that.

And they were illustrating it. So I, I tried to not use it for a while. , you know, and then I just kind of felt like that was some performative social justice on my part. So I just kept using the deck. I don't know if that's me just de defending myself being bad, but I just felt like it's. Probably for me in terms of my work, it's probably best for me to work with the deck that, um, speaks the most loudly and clearly to me then to not use it so that I can get white woman points on the internet.

Obviously,

[00:10:12] Nina Endrst: I didn't know that that was a

[00:10:13] Anna Toonk: controversial deck. Yeah. Although it was briefly called out for a while and Lindsay Mac made a big deal about like, they're not going to use it anymore. And some other people this well, and this is a couple years ago. and I know some people were a little, like they sold out, like when they did stuff, they licensed artwork to DeOrr and I'm like, guess what?

That's amazing. Yeah. And I'm like, guess what? Y'all Tara is not particularly lucrative. So if Dior came knocking on my door and said, can we pay you a lot of money for your artwork? And it might cause a resurgence and interest in your deck, I'd be like, uh, I can speak whenever.

[00:11:05] Nina Endrst: Well, this goes back to why you and I, I think you definitely are friends with more people. You are the first person I've been friends. That is a chair reader. I've never had a friend that's chair reader ever, never. And I don't really want to have any more of them.

[00:11:22] Anna Toonk: did you hear that readers? She's not looking to hire mower

[00:11:28] Nina Endrst: like yoga teachers. I also don't want friends who are yoga teachers, but listen, all, all kind of jokes aside. There's so much bullshit in reaching for, you know, this kind of these points, these Browning points all the time, or se centering themselves, or the whole like spirit has led me to Instagram to tell you this message.

And I'm just like, shut up. I'm sorry. I can't, and that's not a nice thing. I'm not saying that's a nice approach, but when I met you, I was so like, I can't blame. I'm gonna even ask this woman to read because I'm afraid to have this conversation. I think I was sweaty before, and then you were like drunk and I'm like, oh, it's gonna be fine.

But I, I wasn't drunk. I just find I wasn't. No, you were home. Yes. You were home over brutally, but I think you were still a little drunk now. I know you were. Cause I you're just

[00:12:29] Anna Toonk: crazy. Yeah. I was like, I wasn't cuz I just don't drink that much.

[00:12:32] Nina Endrst: no true. But Tara, when I first started reading it and been in my life for, for, so I mean, since I can remember with my mom, but when I started reading it, unfortunately a lot of the people that I came into contact with who were readers

[00:12:51] Anna Toonk: were so.

[00:12:53] Nina Endrst: um, com competitive, competitive. And I remember this woman who was a teacher in Mexico, she was from the states and she was a reader and she, uh, she kind of read Tara, not really. And she was a yoga teacher, but one of those like really self right. Just ones like, yes. Oh my God. Like so much about like just alignment and I'm like, that's great.

I'm so happy. Everybody's aligned. But like, can we just take it down and not? So anyway, I, I'm not nervous from humans usually. And there's some, there's something just about so many readers that have come into contact with, they're like all up in your shit about how you read and who you read for and what do you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, I don't, this is so boring. I don't wanna talk about this, but also like, unless you are in a session with me, what could I possibly tell you about. Readings with me that would like satisfy this weird urge. You have to figure me out or put me in a box. Like it's so bizarre. You'll never know because you'll will, I'll never, I'll likely, never give you a reading.

So like I read you read,

[00:14:01] Anna Toonk: that's all you need to know. When I first met Nina, if I asked her questions about it, she would be like, if I was like, do you do blah or blah? And she was like, sometimes, you know, and I was like, okay, interesting, wait,

[00:14:16] Nina Endrst: wait, what do you mean? Was I

[00:14:18] Anna Toonk: weird? Yeah, you were weird. And, and I was like, this is weird, like for a split second.

I mean, totally. I get that. I am weird about it. Yeah. I mean, well, you're like. I mean, I'm obviously a deeply weird person and I am, my, my brother has a new girlfriend and she's like, you're really weird. And your family's really weird. And he's like, yeah, like, I don't think you're weird. and well, I think in some ways it's just like, I'm like kind of what you see is what you get in a lot of ways.

And I think people find that weird. Your weird, yeah. I think is more undercover.

[00:15:01] Nina Endrst: oh my God. You think it? I, yeah. I think people don't know. I'm weird because I'm like, I got that resting

[00:15:07] Anna Toonk: bitch face. You know what I mean? Well, it's they misread it where I'm like, oh, you're a little bit weird. I'm seeing it.

Some people fall for the ice made and shit. Not me. I see. You're weird. totally, you know, totally. And I was at first, I was like, because there is so much competitive stuff with taro at first, I was like, I didn't get this vibe at all with you that like. I didn't feel you were competitive with me at all, you know, but also you were in the position of power in the sense of you were hiring me.

So why would you then compete with me? That would just be bizarre, you know? Right. And, and I was like, I'm not, there's something here. I'm not sure what it is. I'm, I'm not gonna pay attention to it. Cuz if I pay attention to that, then I'm not paying attention to what I'm here to do. You know? And then I, I eventually learned, it was much more about like you not wanting to participate in the bullshit that is surrounding reading, you know, like you were like, it kind of, to me like falls under sort of like your, I don't gossip stuff, you know, of just like, I don't participate in that.

You know, like if you want to, if, if like the only way you're gonna converse and connect is about like what deck you have or who you studied. Whether I took this or da where I think like, you're like, I'm I R SVP. No, you know, but I. Saw that when I, like, once you got to know me a little bit better and you knew my, like my style of reading, you almost immediately shifted and you would either, like, we just started talking about it more and being like, oh, Like that is such a, like, I think it's so annoying.

Like I used to be better friends with this group of women and they're all really lovely people, but there was this thing that used to happen often when we got together where I felt like a lot of them were overcompensating because they wanted Tara and magic and things like this, you know, their richness to be in more of their day to day life.

So our hangs would just become like dominated by it. And granted sometimes there was moon circling. So it does invite it. I know your nightmare, but they would be like, oh my God, that like our server is so a night of wands and I would just be, and stop it and stop it. Yeah. And I was like, I'm a little embarrassed for all of.

I'm a little embarrassed for us. All this is happening right now. Cause it felt really forced. It felt really performative and it felt about something else, you know? And that is something which is so interesting. Cuz like, you know, Tara is this big mirror, Dar is holding up a mirror. It's like interesting that it invites this element of like cosplay.

And once you realize like I'm a nerd, like I'm interested in a lot of stuff. Cuz I think, you know, we, we just started to get to know each other better and you're like, what do you do? I'm like, oh I'm taking this TA class. And you're like, enjoy that. You know?

[00:18:03] Nina Endrst: I'm like literally if you and I were in high school, I'd be like on my way out to smoke a cigarette and you'd be like, I'll see you after, but I'm gonna take this class first and be like, fuck school. See ya. Yeah. I'd be like, can you wait till I get outta class?

[00:18:14] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I'll smoke with you, but like, you know, um, boy gotta girl, the belt is

[00:18:19] Nina Endrst: wrong.

[00:18:20] Anna Toonk: It's true. and no. And it was like funny when you started to, like, I started to just realize you're guarded and you just started to realize I'm a nerd. And then like that's when our TA conversations. And I think our like work conversations also just changed of like, oh, we approach a lot of this stuff the same way for, do you know what I think?

Sorry, go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say for people who don't know, like, in terms of like this, this spirit thing, I think, I don't know if we've ever really like explained it. We've made fun of it, but we haven't. So a lot of people, when they're learning taro are taught channeling, which, you know, , Nina will make fun of it.

I'll be like, I'm a channeler. And she's like, okay, fine. Channeling is something that is, I think, real legit. However, thanks to social media has become bonkers and people are confusing channeling with maybe talking or insanity. True. True, true, true. And so often when you're learning channeling TA anything kind of, of that you're taught to, to connect to something or to opening yourself up in some way, if, if that's your thinking of opening up, you know, your crown opening up your mind, your body, you know, like whatever to receive wisdom or be in conversation with your higher self and people are all like, I think people, I don't know when spirit entered the chat, truthfully, I don't know when, instead of like, People will dance around like the divine God, Akasha, crackers, things like that.

And will just say spirit. And sometimes I think people are saying spirit as God. And sometimes people are saying spirit as the holy spirit. I don't know. But people started instead of saying like the carts or this is what's coming to me or whatever started saying spirit and acting like spirit is, is this puppet master unknown to us all?

I don't, I don't know. And there's a breed of practitioner person who loves to get on Instagram and in sessions and be like, spirit is telling me, you know, and we just Nina and I have questions. Who is spirit? Are they really telling you that? Is it really a way you're. are you hiding? You know, but that's kind of, I guess the, the history of spirit, like of, or like where that comes from, it's the history of

[00:21:08] Nina Endrst: spirit.

That's the history of Spirit's the Bible y'all have, and there history there, you have it there, you have it. And goodnight. I also channel, I would never say that out loud, except for on this podcast, because we're talking about it, but, and I would also, I don't speak to my clients like that. Yeah. Or like in life, I think, I think the spirit thing is 80% about accountability.

Mm. I think that, especially the breed now that we have with these motherfuckers, churning people out at like a rapid pace. And here's what I don't wanna be, which I work on very, in a, like very diligently. I don't wanna be the like salty tarot reader. And I'm not, who's like around my room for the oldies, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying that I many people read Tara before I did.

I don't want, I don't not want people to have opportunities. However, the way that we're training people, quote, training people, uh, to be psychics and is concerning to me obviously. And I've said that a million times. Yeah. And so like when people come, it's a huge red flag to me when people come into the conversation and they're not talking about themselves, like every time I'm in session, I'm there obviously yes.

Fully present the whole time. Do I understand what I'm saying all the time? Absolutely not. But am I filtering it also at the same time? So I'm not just like speaking in tongues? Yes. Also, because what happens before is my personal practice. To protect my energy to call in whoever is helping me and whoever's helping them and then let the rest unfold.

And it's very much like a, a collaborative process with the person I'm reading for. But the whole spirit thing just really, really irks me because I think it's so much passing the Baton or passing just the, the accountability to something that you can't actu that no one knows what that is really truly nobody.

Right? Yeah. So you can say something really harmful to somebody and then be like, well, that's just what spirit said. You don't have to like it. You know, it's like, that's the spirit message. And this happened with Anna and I were this woman. I was friends with friendly. I was really just a good friend to her, but anyway, she, on my birthday, she like forced a reading on me a couple years ago.

And I was like, I don't want, I didn't want a reading. And I just, I felt really rude and I should have just said like, no, no, but I tried to say no, like a couple times, and she's like, no, you come and give a birthday meeting. So she gives me this fucking stupid reading and I don't like it to begin with. And then she starts to manipulate it and tell me that Anna is like out for money.

I'm like, Anna has way more money than I'll probably ever have, but okay, go do, go on. And then called me after and followed up and said, spirit wanted me to tell you. And I just was like, this is why we have a huge problem. in this world because I love Tara and it means so much to me. And it's my life in so many ways, but I'm so sick of people using it as a way to manipulate other people and to not say like, Hey, I'm actually really insecure about your friendship with this person.

And it's making me feel weird and blah, blah, whatever other bullshit they need to say. Instead, they're trying to, whether they know it or not use their spiritual practice to, to sort of like dismantle something. And that's what is really harmful and dangerous. And I dislike strongly,

[00:25:12] Anna Toonk: it's a relatively benign example of a really dangerous aspect. Mm-hmm of TA and most people, I think. Aren't being actively manipulative, you know, like, I, I don't think they're like, you know what, I'm gonna go terrorize this person on their birthday, you know, but that's kind of the problem with Tara is that if, when you've picked up a deck, you know, like it's, it's all fun in games until someone's listening to what you're saying.

you know, and I think that a lot of people wanna rush the process. And whenever people like ask me about, like, when I first started reading or like, You know, it took me a while to like figure out my relationship with Tara in a strange way, because it exploded my life. You know, like I was leading a completely different life and then decided to learn Tara in a whim.

And then it like took over everything. It was like one of the most unreal things I've ever experienced in my life, which also really impressed upon me, the power that it contained, you know, and not to be weird and be like, you know, it's powerful, but it is, you know, it is seeing people, whether you're witnessing yourself or witnessing others as some of the most powerful work we can do and people will.

I think when you, if, if, um, Tara is your medium, it feels pretty good. It feels like. I mean, I definitely, I mean, thankfully I had a pretty healthy ego, I think when I went into Tara, cuz I had a pretty successful career, which I think helped, you know, I wasn't really seeking something to make me feel special or heal insecurities or things like that.

I'd kind of already done some of that work, I guess, in therapy to be honest, like, I don't know, I just came to it a bit differently. And when I first started learning taro, I was 35. I didn't, I wasn't goth as a teenager. I missed it. I did dabble with a oui board, but I, I never really . I thought TA was like kind of like rooms or something.

And I was like, what am I gonna go to the Renaissance fair. Next. I just like didn't have any interest in it. And it was. it clicked so much into place and I'd always been so, so, so, so intuitive that it started to give me this like roadmap of like what to do with my intuition and things like that. But it was so interesting being in classes with people and like starting to meet people in the taro community and stuff.

And the people who I think struggled a bit with their objectivity and to not be dangerous were the ones that this was the first time I think that they had ever felt empowered in some way that all of a sudden yes. And I, that power from like holding the deck and being the one with the information. I don't know.

I, I think a lot of people don't know how to ground that, you know, and don't. know how to like, let that maybe run its course in a way that's like healthy, cuz it's fair. Like a lot of people who I think have felt unseen and marginalized come to TA and feel magic, you know? And that's intoxicating. I don't begrudge anybody that, but if you're using TA as a way to be passive aggressive, like it's gonna get you in the end.

I really do know. I don't think,

[00:29:01] Nina Endrst: think that'll happen. I, I totally agree. I don't think a lot of people know what they're doing. I don't think they know what they're doing. I don't I'm I don't mean yes. I think they know deep down, but I just think that they're not truly aware of the harm that they can cause, and humility is a huge part of reading.

Right? Because you, we just because you are, you know, in charge of the session, doesn't mean that you are. in charge of the information, like it it's coming it, right? Yeah. You have to treat that with like the utmost

[00:29:40] Anna Toonk: respect. It's not a bad

[00:29:42] Nina Endrst: end and no, it's not. And, and Reiki has, you know, as much as I think the, a lot of people who do right here also fucking cos, but anyway, mm-hmm, Reiki brought so much to me too, as far as Tara, because it's the whole idea of Reiki obviously is that it's an energy that, you know, you're just pure.

Channeling, and it has nothing to do with you. So you might see some wild shit in the session, right? Yeah. But it's not like, oh, I am this all powerful, you know, person and it's to take away our own power, because I think it's important to feel good about what you do and confident in holding space that we have to be those things and give that to ourselves.

But to then take that on and have this kind of God complex, which I think a lot of people are now struggling with this idea of like, Ooh, I can play God. Like I can cast spells and I can, you know, make this person this way. And again, even if it's not in the forefront of their mind, I think that's, what's happening to a lot of people and that's concerning to me obviously.

But yeah, there's also so much, there's also so much about Tara that like is incredibly positive. I do wanna talk about how many people

[00:30:58] Anna Toonk: fear it.

[00:31:01] Nina Endrst: Because Kate who I'm just calling you out. Sorry, Kate. Usually just say a friend, but Kate. Um, and I had a conversation the other day. It was so funny. She, or it was a couple months ago she was asking about advice or something and she was like, or maybe I'll just book a session, but I don't want Tara

And I was like, uh, okay. But she said that the site that the how to be human site is actually helping her get into it.

[00:31:29] Anna Toonk: Good. You love to hear it? I know. I, for whatever reason, I I'm curious if this happens to you. I get tons of clients, people in events and things who I'm their very first reading.

[00:31:48] Nina Endrst: Oh, I'd say 99% of people that come to me.

I'm their first

[00:31:52] Anna Toonk: reading. Interesting, which I was. surprised by, you know, like I don't, I don't know. I, I had, I mean, I guess when I, I mean, like I never saw myself being a Dar reader, so I certainly didn't think about who my clientele was going to be. You know, I didn't get that far, but I think because like Tara felt so familiar to me because of art, art, art history, and I think honestly, Catholicism, like in terms of, you know, being really conditioned to see imagery as a prompt or as a messenger, you know, like there was nothing scary or threatening to me about it.

I. Don't really know what people are afraid of, you know? I'm and I challenge people about it. And I'm like, what, what do you think will happen? Do you think the devil is going to appear like Zaba is gonna be like, finally, Kate, you got a reading and now I can come for your soul. Like it's, you know, because that was the portal.

finally, she took the bait. Um, and so, I mean, no themselves ex well, exactly. And I'm like, if you are afraid, if yourself or what you're going to learn, like, I do tell people in regards to Tara, like don't ask questions. You have very specific answers in mind for, you know, like, yeah, you will get your feelings hurt.

And one of the one time I have a pretty like good, I think success rate, like I've only had a few people. Be mad and the woman who was mad also, still tried to book again. And I was like, uh, do you not remember last time I haven't forgotten it. It's amazing. God wildness, but one of the unhappiness, uh, women, uh, or the, the unhappiness woman I ever read for was at my friend CCAs store, which now, um, she's given up the brick and mortar, but everyday magic still, um, lives on, on, on the web.

But when I, she was one of the first people I texted when I was like, I'm leaving TV, I'm gonna be a reader full time. And she was like, amazing. Come down to everyday magic and read one weekend and was hugely supportive. And she continues to be a very wonderful supportive friend. And this woman was one of my people that weekend and was like, wanted to know about an ex-boyfriend and the ex is already kind of swirling around.

And I mean, do I have to tell you, like the outlook didn't look good? You know, like, it didn't look good. , she's mad, big mad. No. You know, and I, on it didn't surprise me. I mean, and I like, you know, I wanna do a good job and I don't want anyone to leave a reading upset, but like, she was mad, you know, like I don't, I, I don't remember the specifics, but it just wasn't good.

You know, it was just kind of like, eh, keep an eye on. I don't know if it's gonna, well, you know, like it didn't, it wasn't positive or, or it wasn't whatever she wanted it to be. It was not that I'll put it that way. And she was completing to Kar and PCA was like, we stand behind all of our readers. She was like, sorry to hear it.

But, you know, like, or whatever. And then her friend saw me as well and was like really blown away. And I was like, that has to be a really interesting car ride home, you know, like, but so much of it was like, , you know, I think so much of that fear is that I don't know, like if you wanna stay in delusion, just like, let yourself stay in delusion.

You know, like if you want it to work out with your ex, then just think it's gonna work out with your ex, like, don't get the reading,

[00:35:51] Nina Endrst: don't get a reading. And also don't blame Tara. Like it's not, it's not the Tara's fall. And I, I, the only time I had a woman who was like really pissed was when that was this Italian woman, funny enough at, on a retreat. And she pulled the devil and she was so pissed and she also was pissed that I wasn't in her MI in her, um, words, a guru.

And I was like, oh yeah, but. I was like, that's where it shows up as the mirror of like, whatever it is that you don't wanna know about yourself, or you don't wanna admit to yourself, like it is going to come up. Yes. That is what it's not like, it's this horrible, you know, our of just like, we're just like throwing things at you on this and then this shit, and then more of this shit, it's like, but you are going to face things that are uncomfortable that are shadowy, that are sad.

Who knows, you know, you don't know. And I think a lot of people just really don't want to be confronted by themselves. And I understand that, but I, I also something that I'm grateful for in some ways that I also think is really kind of shitty in other ways, is that like in New York, as you know, it's a, we have to state on our sites that it's for entertainment purposes only.

[00:37:18] Anna Toonk: Yeah. You do that. uh, I have some language. Yeah. I don't, I don't know if I have entertainment purposes, but I, I ha whatever it is we need, you know, who got that? Got those laws changed, especially in the state of California, miss Cleo, who miss Cleo. Yeah. Now that's so funny. Yeah. That, uh, she won some landmark, uh, lawsuit, so that like the one 900, you know, the psychic hotlines could exist.

Miss Cleo was a boss on multiple levels. Was she a psychic who could say, you know, but she knew how to, like, she knew how to pull it off. So maybe,

[00:38:00] Nina Endrst: but I don't like that. It's dismissed in that. Yes. It's not just for entertainment at, at all. It's like free speaking from my experience and what I've seen in, you know, my client's lives.

Like it's a very powerful. Tool. And mm-hmm if you respect it and you respect this time and your, and the what's illuminated so much can shift for you in a session like so much, which is why, the way you read, you know, you won't, you read for people what? Once, every couple

[00:38:38] Anna Toonk: months depends. You know, I've got people I see maybe once a month and then I've got people I maybe see once a year, you know it.

Yeah. They're all different. I would say so it's but I'm not like you, you can, I'm not like you.

[00:38:55] Nina Endrst: Yeah. that's that's okay. I think that's good. That

[00:38:59] Anna Toonk: works didn't mean it that way, but you know, you've,

[00:39:02] Nina Endrst: I'm not like you, I'm

[00:39:03] Anna Toonk: not like you, uh, you have a, you know, you have a regular, uh, you people have regular sessions with you.

Yeah, yeah. Do longer ongoing work with you. And Tara. Yeah. And

[00:39:14] Nina Endrst: I part and part of that is really because, I mean, it, it just happened that way, but now I realize like whenever I do a one off reading, it just feels incomplete to me just for my practice. And that's not true for even close to everyone, but for me it feels really nice to see it evolve and something you said, you know, months ago, I don't even know if it was on the podcast or not, but it's really hard when you first start reading, not to fire hose people with information and be like, so it's nice to, I find to like really get into something and allow people to kind of, um, digest what we're talking about before leading into something else.

I that's why I like working that way, but what is the most interesting or painful or happy thing you've ever come to know through Tara?

[00:40:18] Anna Toonk: Mm, that is a very good question. Honestly. I think when I first started working with it, it was learning how unhappy I was like, I think I, I knew I wasn't happy. uh, like I knew I wa but I think I thought it was much more surface level perhaps.

And I think, I mean, Tara did such a deep excavation on me and. I think also it really, the biggest thing Tara taught me was it's okay to disappoint people when you start reading for people, which sounds weird, you know? But when you start reading for people, you have to really be grounded and centered in like, it's, it's not a about what they want.

You know, like when I'm reading for someone, there's nobody who's ever been more important to me than the person that I'm reading for in that moment, you know, like I am trying to be in such a bubble of love and compassion. And, and like you, you said before, like it's, it's not for us to really interpret, like, you know, we interpret the cards, but we also, whatever comes through, we relay, you know, like it's not for me to really decide that stuff, you know, but you know, like when someone's looking for love and all the cards you pull or like, You know, focus on your work, you know, like it sucks to relay that to somebody, you know, and it's been, yeah, a real process for me.

Like Tara's taught me so much about, I think people pleasing and disappointment and compassion and like how to not like Brightside it with someone and be like, listen like this, this is a snapshot in this moment. It's not forever, you know, like it's just, I don't even know how to really articulate what it's taught me, but I think it's taught me like kind of the most about people, human nature.

You know, I started talking to my therapist all the time about like patterns and things I was seeing with clients and being like, is that just a people thing? Is that a universal thing? You know, like, and that's when I thought after reading for. I don't know, like seven years or so. No, cuz that would, uh, five years.

I was like, maybe I wanna be a therapist because similar to lead to how you feel of like this session didn't feel complete. I was like, whoa, if we can cover this much ground in an hour, like what could we do every week in an hour? You know, and stuff. And I, because I think that that was there's something about, you know, like kind of coming back to that fear people have around have around Tara.

Like I don't think a reading's ever gonna tell you something you, you don't know, you know, like on some level somewhere, but it might couch it or put it in this way so that you finally hear it. And Tara's ability if you, you know, like most of us, when someone says, I wanna talk to you are like, you know, that, that makes us wanna like barf, you know, it's like, oh, I'm in trouble.

Or like bad news is coming. And Tara feels like, I think if you're not familiar with it, or you've only had a reading here or there, it feels like this version of like, I wanna talk to you. And when you really are in connection with the cards and like you realize it's, it's not, that's not what it is. It's like having a conversation with the best friend.

And they're kind of like, yeah. You know, like sure, you can maybe be a little fiery, but have you thought of maybe looking at this or like, you can bring this into the, you know, like. It shows you so much of what are the stories and narratives going on in your head, whatever you project onto the cards, which is one reason I do like the meanings.

I think a pet pee for, for me is when people are like, I'm Aero reader and you're like, cool. And they're like, what's your favorite card? And you're like, I don't know if, how could I choose what's yours? And they're like, I just sort of like make 'em up. It's like, no, well then that's not TA like, no, no, it drives me crazy.

It

[00:45:10] Nina Endrst: cannot make them up. Don't go rogue. Then you're doing something

[00:45:13] Anna Toonk: else that makes me crazy. It's a system for a reason. Yes, of course. And I know that I can be pedantic about it or I'll be like, that's not what that chord means. And that's been a, that's been a growth process for myself of opening up because it's like.

If you're, if you can remove the competitive element out of it, you can like learn a lot and you can learn a lot from listening to other readers and hearing the words they use. I forget what card it was. I think it was the king of swords that you gave me this like whole other different way to think about it.

And it's like, was I thinking of it wrong? And Nina was thinking of it, right? No, no. It's like, that's the benefit of all these different people reading TA, but there's this difference between picking up a deck and then next, the next week, like launching your site as a reader and everyone has something to contribute to the conversation that is TA you know, it gets a little lost, but I think the biggest thing to answer your question, I think the biggest thing it showed me, me, I guess.

Projection. I think because I also learned a lot. I remember this one reading that went off the rails and in hindsight, I think the person probably had trauma. And I don't think I was reading at that point in a trauma sensitive way. I just like didn't know to, I mean, you know, and she got super triggered and I was like, what is happening?

You know? And I was like, and I was very hung up on like, you know, I remember reaching out to a friend who was a reader and was like, Hey, I just wanna like, get your take on this. Like I had a client, like I was trying to do due diligence, not like gossip about my client, but I was like, this is my take on this reading.

What do, what do you think it is? you know, and the other person agreed with me and I was like, okay. So I wasn't off base, you know, like I was trying to kind of do my due diligence and make sure, like, I hadn't been wrong, you know? Or like, I wasn't, you know? Yeah. I was just trying to figure out what had happened, to be honest.

And, and I was like, oh, I, I, I hit something and ended up like speaking to the client later. And it was like one specific word. And it was a word that, you know, her family who she was estranged from, like, it was a very charged word. And that, you know, like I learned a lot about that with Tara as well. Like even if like, I don't care about that word, like, like, um, I find the word intense, for example, can be very triggering for people.

If you tell people like there's an intensity, like to your energy, or there's an intensity to your blah, blah, blah. They're like, are you saying I'm intense? Am I intense? And it's like, I mean, uh, yes. Yeah. Like sometimes like, and you know, but clearly they have a negative connotation with that, you know? And I think for me, the, the, the real challenge was how do I like, see all of this?

How do I witness all this and stay in my own energy and not try to people, please, I think, and try to like, be a business owner. It was like this perfect sort of training ground for me to work on stuff I needed to do anyway, you know, so, but I was like, oh, how, what an amazing way for me to get this, like on job training for myself.

[00:48:45] Nina Endrst: Oh, that's the worst. Like, it's the worst that it's the best, but it's so necessary.

[00:48:51] Anna Toonk: What about yeah. For you?

[00:48:53] Nina Endrst: Whew. Certainly boundaries. Mm.

[00:48:57] Anna Toonk: Yeah. That's a good one.

[00:48:59] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I used to read, and we've talked about this in a way that was like, just. So my energy was just so, so, so, so open that I would leave with them and it was not good.

And so I quickly realized that I had to, you know, have a, have a real system. And obviously I resist systems instructors a lot, but as far as my work goes, I think I'm like super anal about how I do things, because I know that that's how I protect myself. And that's how I protect the person I'm working with.

So I've said this here before, like I had, I was calling in a lot of people which really made me look at myself at, you know, that were putting me in like their, their mommy role. And they wanted me to love them and they wanted me to approve of them. And I was just like, this is not. what this is, right. Like, and I would have a couple of them like, say, I love you.

I had one client who got really mad at me because she didn't get an email that I sent about a website that she made. And she like, apparent, like it took too long. Like even though I sent the email, she didn't get in. And she was like, it took, you know, it took too long for her to receive it or whatever, whatever it was really about, she got like really upset.

And, and I just was like, I had to make sure that I was being very compassionate, but also direct. And like this, this is not what we're gonna do. We like, we can't do that. And it's not appropriate to do that. And it's not helpful to do that for either of us. So let's kind of cut to the meat of it, which is, you know, clearly some things, some boundaries have been crossed and.

You know, that's, that's not good boundaries for sure. I'd say less people pleasing and more rescuing stuff for me of like, it's not, that's not what I'm doing. I'm not here to, because I've had so much like wounded bird stuff in my life and people, and that I really wanna help. And I wanna be, you know, I wanna see them through this thing and whether that's friends or family or blah, blah, blah.

And I just can't take that into my work. And I, Tara has really taught me to, you know, like Tara is the, the middle man and I love that. And I think it's so necessary. And I also thought about being a therapist for a while and realized that I hate school. And also, I don't wanna do like a clinical kind of thing, even though I, you know, you can make it your own to some degree, but I just was like, that's not.

What I'm trying to do here. Yeah. What else has it for me personally, it's been whew. Um, I think it's taught me a lot about freedom and also how interpretation, right. Obviously. Yeah. But like I would get so, um, reactive when I used to read for myself back in the day and I would be like super high or super low.

Right. Depending on the reading, instead of allowing it to really, for me to see the whole thing and to witness the reading in a, in a full way, I would just go to the worst case scenario or the best case scenario. And I would kind of like block out the rest of it for myself, not for other people. And I actually don't read for myself anymore.

Like very rarely, maybe once every couple of months, but I just, it, it got to. It, it was like obsessive and it was also not helpful. So, you know, I, I think it's really important to have people you trust or outside of yourself delivering this kind of information and there's stuff that I can absolutely, you know, take from my readings, but it's always nice to have somebody say things to me.

And I, I feel like it's just, um, another way to learn about yourself through someone else's eyes. That's always impactful for me too.

[00:53:32] Anna Toonk: I mean, I think Tara taught me a lot about like confidence in a way, like this deeper confidence of like. everything is open to interpretation. Like there is no right or wrong, you know, like there's like kind of like only what you do with it, you know? And, um, yeah, like Rachel Pollock talks a lot about that in 78 degrees of wisdom that like kind of very few things are inherently good or bad.

It's like, it's all about context. And I think that most of us, you know, or a lot of people are running around kind of being like. Am I, am I being good or am I being bad? Am I, you know, like, and, and if you said that to them, that they would disagree, they would be like, no, I'm focused on this. It's like, yeah, but you're kind of living by this code of like, am I a good girl or a bad girl?

You know, like you're yeah. It's and Tara, I think really challenges that, you know, and is like, if you don't like the outcome and you don't like the information, you have the information now to do something differently with it. Oh, that's it. The

[00:54:43] Nina Endrst: power, you know? Yeah. And, and feeling and choice. And that, I feel like people come back, you know, often, and there's a lot of frustration with my clients that they don't get it, or they think they don't get it.

I'm like, you absolutely get it. You're telling me you, you know, every, you get everything I'm saying, but there often is a frustration that like, why don't I know to do. Like what's better for me or why don't I know how to like, get out of the situation that I don't love to be in or choose better habits.

And I'm like, have you ever heard of conditioning? Like, it's a, it's a thing. This just because you're now armed with this knowledge doesn't mean it's this quick little jot to enlightenment or whatever the fuck, you know, you, it's a process. And that's another thing that Tara has been hugely helpful for me in patience and process and like step by step and bit by bit, like there's no way to know the cards fully, in my opinion, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Like I can always, I can always learn something about them, whether it's like a little symbol or whatever that I haven't noticed before, or some teacher saying something that, that hits me that I love too. It's just always a journey. And I really think that that's so, um, important for our minds and our.

Souls and all, you know, our BOS to be in this constant, not state of trying to find the answers, but to be open to new

[00:56:15] Anna Toonk: perspectives. Yeah. Because Tara, where it works, the best is objectivity, you know? So it is hard to be objective about yourself or your own life. Like it. I don't know why we all forget this and then all have to re remember it, like.

We all have that moment. I mean, Nina will say something and be like, well, I think people like, you know, misunderstand this about you and I'm like, holy shit. Yeah. That's a brilliant insight. Thank you. Like, why didn't I think of that? And it's like, well, cuz I'm in it, you know? Yeah. And I think Tara is helpful to be kind of like, hi, I'm gonna point out this thing that your brain is forgetting, you know?

Or like yeah. And no judgment. Exactly. Like there isn't there, there isn't. But I think like a lot of us, you know, like with any, with any narrative that isn't serving us, like we're always caught in that push pull of, do we seek to challenge it or do we seek to confirm it? And Tara was like often a time where it's like, which way are you gonna go?

You know, like, I, I don't, I don't, this probably hasn't happened to you because you would've nipped it in the butt immediately, but I've had several friends. Decide to learn Tara and then decide to text me a lot about it. I've

[00:57:39] Nina Endrst: have zero friends learn to Tara. Yeah. Clients who then were like now charging, double what I charge.

Oh, well, after like I've the first after, like the first

[00:57:48] Anna Toonk: month I've had that a little bit with students, but not so much. Well, it's funny cuz like, you know, they're all making websites like week two of the mentorship and I'm like, it's not all fun in games. Y'all , it's, it's, it's a grind like anything else, but um, where they're like, I, I pulled the five of pinnacles today and I, I have to take my cat to the vet.

Does that mean it's gonna be really expensive? I'm scared. I'm scared. And I'm like, I think you're looking for a reason to be scared. You know? Like you can just be scared.

[00:58:21] Nina Endrst: Would never allow that to happen.

[00:58:26] Anna Toonk: I liked that I could hear your like, like you, you like, you were not just gasping, but you were also gathering enough ox oxygen to really punctuate your never cause you never, never, and I want to say, like, I'm not just trying to like talk shit for the sake of it.

That is absolutely not what Tara is about. Tara is not about, I think making us feel disempowered or fearful no, or a loss of agency. And also, I don't think Tara is inherently predictive. I think that comes down to who is reading for you

[00:59:10] Nina Endrst: say 150,000 million trillion percent. The only question that I ask that is, you know, future oriented is like about moving forward.

It's never. That's it like same. It's not like, so again, perhaps of course there are people that can, who are psychics, who could be predictive, but I definitely do not believe that that, that Tara is that inherently. Absolutely.

[00:59:40] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I make the distinction with people where I'll be like, Hey, this is just me.

Or like, what's coming to me. I think this is how this is gonna play out. But the cards are saying, da, da, da, da. You know, like I, I let people know like, which is me, which is the cards. So as we wrap up, because we're already at an hour, which I'm it, I don't, it feels like we've also been talking about this for four hours.

I'm confused about time right now. Same. If someone wanted to learn Tara, where, where would you tell them to begin?

[01:00:17] Nina Endrst: You know, it's interesting, you and I are obviously very different in, in our approaches to. Learning period, but hugely like hugely, hugely. Yeah. Hugely something I so respect about you though, is your ability to find people and programs or, you know, classes that I think that are really great and, you know, in a lot of ways.

And so I think I would do a lot of digging and research, but I would pick up a deck and look at it and I would spend time with the imagery. I would read the book for sure. But at first I would just sit with the images and not read for yourself or any of that. Just familiarize yourself with the art and the feeling.

and that's it. And then maybe you start to lean into like, is there someone that I like, who is teaching something? Or is there someone I could reach out to who could teach me one on one or their books, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I would definitely get, get a deck that speaks to you. And it's just a feeling like that's how they should come to you is just being drawn to something.

And don't worry about what's popular. I mean, I've said this, not on here obviously. Cause we never talked about it, but a lot of the modern decks and this is zero disrespect that are like really shiny and kind of abstract. Like I get not up from, you know, I think they're like cool a lot of times, but I don't, I can't read with those at all.

So you have to figure out what works for you. And if you do have a bunch of friends that are terror readers, like maybe get some new friends, but also get like, don't worry about what they're reading, you know? I don't know. I think it's unhealthy to be in a circle of fucking like terror readers all the time.

I just do. I think it's probably really boring and really annoying.

[01:02:20] Anna Toonk: Uh, I mean, yeah, when it goes in that direction, it definitely can be women don't need more things to compete about. They really don't exactly more ways to. Compare ourselves. Um, or to feel

[01:02:34] Nina Endrst: bad, like, oh, I didn't know that about the night of swords.

Like yeah. Except yeah. There's just, you know, like a hundred percent just walk outside. It's

[01:02:40] Anna Toonk: like, that's all you need to do. You don't need it with your friends. Um, and in your social circles, I just wanna say you can like tuning Nina's point. You can buy your own deck. That is an old wise of course tale, um, that you have to be gifted your, your first deck and, uh, historians believe is a form of ancient gate keeping so hard to know that people yeah.

Have always been on their bullshit so if you've been waiting that's the beginning or your, your besties are not taking the, he, when you keep being like, I really love TA , uh, go, which.

[01:03:22] Nina Endrst: God,

[01:03:23] Anna Toonk: yeah. Go by yourself a deck. And I do think to Nina's point, like the started at the beginning of like the most important thing is you connect with your deck.

So if you can go somewhere in person or I think it's eclectic TA AC C L E T I C I don't know if I spelled that. Right. You can see tons of decks. They do unwrapping, uh, you know, like you can see all the artwork so you could maybe get it. If you can't go see DS in person, like, you know, in New York, a place that you can go as Namaste bookstore that's on 14th, uh, between fifth and sixth, they have a huge selection, you know, So ideally you can go, cuz they're not cheap.

You know, I would say most X range from 20 to, I mean, the sky's the limit to be honest, but most, I would say 20 to 60 bucks. So it's like not the cheapest thing. So if you can see 'em in person, you know, you really do want to feel like you would with any object that you like, you wanna feel, I think chemistry with it.

Like you wanna be drawn to your deck. You wanna be like, Ooh, this, I, I, I wanna get reading with you. I don't know why wanna with you. So then we're like seducing our deck, but we're gonna be sexual deck but you want to feel, yeah. You wanna feel horny for your deck now you want to feel excited by and like you are in communication, inspired, comfort,

[01:04:53] Nina Endrst: safe.

Yes. Yeah. All those things. Yes, totally. Totally, totally. And like you're with a friend.

[01:04:58] Anna Toonk: Yes. You want some kind of something to be flowing? Yeah. You know, hundred percent. It feels like it's silent. That's maybe not the deck for you or one you get just cuz you want such,

[01:05:10] Nina Endrst: it's a bummer. It's such a bummer. I have so many decks that I just, I I'm like, oh yay.

Yay. And I get it in the mail and then I'm like, w oh, well it's beautiful. But I know it's gonna sit here. Ugh. Just gonna sit here. But the ones that do speak to you, you're like Jesus. like never a news. Don. They're loud. They are very loud. Yes. Well, thanks for coming on the terror journey with us. Y'all

[01:05:37] Anna Toonk: yeah.

And not to button it with a plug for ourselves, but I feel like we would be annoyed, but obviously we, I mean, What we've been, we read taro on three. Well, we, we read taro one. We read taro. If you want Tara readings with us, you can absolutely do that. We have our own websites. And then also what we've been trying to do is approach taro education on the, how to be human pod.com website with our members in a kind of chiller, no pressure way, and trying to remove some of that like kind of competition and psychic off by just introducing the different cards.

We're in the we're I guess by August, we should be through the majors and then figure out the minors. But we do give a lot of terror education behind closed doors. So we do, if you want more, but a children, do you have it?

[01:06:36] Nina Endrst: Yes, we do. We have te education and readings members only readings with Anna every month.

Yeah. All right. See you next time. Bye

that's all for today's episode.

[01:06:54] Anna Toonk: If you're interested in submitting a topic or want to submit a question for our advice episode, please join our membership community@howtobehumanpod.com. Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.