Dr Marianne Trent (00:00):

What if I told you that there's an access route into becoming a UK psychologist that most people don't know exists? A route that's even missed by qualified psychologists. Not knowing it nearly cost today's guest her dream career. In this episode, incoming trainee psychologist Esther Teo and I are taking a look at the BPS assessment of equivalence route and why sometimes the biggest barrier isn't your qualifications, it's knowing what's possible and combining it with your perseverance. Hi, welcome along to Psychology Actually. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist. Today I'm joined by Esther Teo, an incoming trainee psychologist. Hi, Esther.

Esther Teo (00:46):

Hi, hello. Thank you so much for having me on.

Dr Marianne Trent (00:49):

You're so welcome. We are recording on one of the UK's hottest ever days. So we are both in this and committed, but if anyone can hear our fans in the background, please do forgive us. We might melt without them. Thank you for pitching this episode to me. It was not something I was aware of, but it's something that might well help so many people. Today we're talking about the GBC, which I always thought was something that you needed to have as part of your British psychological society accredited undergraduate psychology degree or your conversion masters, breaking news. That is not necessarily the case, is it Esther? Over to you.

Esther Teo (01:37):

Thank you. Yes, I did get in touch. I got in touch with Marion originally because people don't know about this process. When I first went through this process, it was very, very, very hard to find reliable information even on the kind of official BPS websites. I tried to find advice online in the forums and no one had really heard of it or gone through it successfully, so it's hard to get good advice. So this process is a process called Assessment of Equivalence, and it's also kind of known as the special case assessment. It's something that happens online on the BPS website through a portal. It's fairly inexpensive. It costs about 50 or 60 pounds to apply. It takes a couple of weeks for them to turn it around. It involves you submitting lots of evidence about your academic history and your academic experience, for example, your transcripts and all your paperwork.

(02:34):

It's quite detailed. And then they assess it to see whether you have enough psychology content in your studies to classify as equivalent to a psychology degree.

Dr Marianne Trent (02:46):

Great. So if anyone's watching or listening to this and they're like, "What is the GBC? What is the GBR?" We've had a bit of a chat about this that, well, we're not really sure other than that it's a kind of stamp of approval that says that a student or a graduate has had enough breadth and depth of clinically relevant, helpful psychology informed content for them to be able to thrive hopefully and do well in an applied psychology profession. And that would include in the UK, clinical psychology, counselling psychology, forensic psychology, sport and exercise, educational, organisation, occupational. I think that's covered them all. I might have forgotten one. And I'm sorry if you're listening and you're like, "Yes, you have, Maryanne." But that is the benchmark, isn't it? And sometimes people will do a retraining master's. They might have done, I don't know, accountancy or nursing or something as they're even teaching as their undergraduate degree.

(03:52):

And then you are like, "Oh, I've discovered psychology." And they'll do the conversion. And hopefully that will then have that BPS GBC. Or in my days, it was GBR, which was graduate basis for registration. That changed in 2009. But that's what, if you know, if you're listening to this as a much earlier applicant, maybe you're doing your A levels, you're considering about your options, you're considering maybe retraining before you've even applied to a course. If you know you want to go down one of the HCPC practitioner psychologist routes, you will need this GBC. That's correct, isn't it, Esther?

Esther Teo (04:33):

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr Marianne Trent (04:35):

Amazing. So I mean, life can happen, can't it? I, through the very skin of my teeth, managed to get my GBR, which would now be GBC, in place by the end of my undergraduate psychology degree. But I originally went to university to do a different course and then transferred to psychology. So I didn't necessarily pick the course for psychology. And others might be in that position where it's a little bit accidental, but then you get to the end of your study. It's not a cheap thing. Or you get to the end of your master's. Again, not cheap in terms of outlay, not cheap in terms of time spent, stress, trying to fit all that into your life. And then you're like, "Are you kidding me? I've got to do another degree or I've got to do another one or two year conversion to get my GBC.

(05:26):

Oh, I don't know if I've got that in me. So maybe I'll end up just doing a PhD or something like that, which isn't really my passion. It isn't what I want." Could you tell us a little bit about how you ended up in the position where you didn't have your GBC from the BPS?

Esther Teo (05:43):

Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. So originally I went and did neuroscience as my undergrad. I thought that this was really, really, really kind of me and set for life, but obviously at that age, who's to say, who's to know and things change. And so I did really love that degree. I loved the neuroscience. I loved thinking about the brain and how it drives behaviour. But after those years, I kind of grew a bit weary and I no longer cared about proteins. I didn't care about them. I didn't care about cells. I didn't care about proteins. And I loved the part about behaviour and I loved the part about psychology. So that motivated me to go into a master's of developmental neuroscience and psychopathology. And this had a really heavy psychology emphasis. Unfortunately, that degree also wasn't accredited. So then I always ended up with both degrees unaccredited.

(06:38):

Still not really sure that I wanted to do a psychology doctorate at all or that I wanted GBC and thought maybe I would want to stay in research. So then went into a few jobs and did a research assistant position for a while. And I did that for about three years. And along three years, people were kind of encouraging me, "What's next? What's next?" And the natural route is a PhD in research, which didn't really feel right to me. It was missing something huge and it was missing the clinical contact and that kind of really meaningful contact for me. And I did love a lot about it and I wasn't ready to give it up. And that's when a lot of people, a lot of careers advisors, a lot of internet searches told me clinical psychology sounds really perfect for you. But there was this huge barrier, the huge barrier that I couldn't do it without a conversion master's.

(07:37):

It's great that it exists. It's great that people can transition parts of their life where they can transition into this field. At the time, I couldn't afford to do this nor could I fit this in my life. And I'd just done another master's. And it felt like a really, really big barrier, especially since my studies since I could remember were really psychology heavy. And so it felt like such a shame to then pay all this money and to do this whole conversion masters when I could guarantee that I've covered really, really, really quite a lot of it. So that's how I stumbled upon this particular process. A little embarrassing actually, but the way that I found out about it was I asked ChatGPT, I said, "I've tried everything. I have no idea what to do with my life. Just tell me what to do." And it said, "I think that clinical psychology sounds perfect for you." Which point I said, "You idiot.

(08:28):

I can't do that." And it said, "Actually, have you heard of this process? This assessment of equivalence process," which I'd never heard of. I'd never spoken to anyone who had heard of it. And it was really, really helpful actually at taking me through this process and what was actually needed. I think that the information is, for some reason or another, very inaccessible. One of the biggest reasons I reached out to you, Marian, is because I'd really like to make this information a bit more accessible. I've seen people on the forums on Facebook and things asking similar questions, especially maybe people with abroad degrees and lots of people, very, very well-meaning and sometimes even qualified practitioners saying, "Ah, I'm really sorry, but this is the only way you have to do a conversion course."

Dr Marianne Trent (09:16):

Yeah. I think anyone working in an NHS service already qualified should definitely know about this because people will ask them. And people will often come to me and say, "Actually, I'm already a qualified psychologist in India or in another country. And I don't have this GBC. What can I do?" And my answer would always been before. There's no other way around it. But actually there is. This is a really, really important community message. So thank you, Esther. And you've gone one step beyond what is helpful because you've put together a really beautiful guide. Tell us about your guide, Esther.

Esther Teo (09:59):

Yeah, thank you. I though that because this process is inaccessible enough as it is, it's hard to find reliable information. I personally really like information to be nice and visual and clear. So I put together a kind of leaflet or just PDF that visualises what is the GBC? What is the process that it takes to get the assessment of equivalence? How long does it take? What documents do you need? Who could be eligible? Kind of what you'd want to know. It is written on the document, but a lot of this, because information is quite scarce out there, it is based on my personal experience. Some of the information, especially about what documents you actually need. I kind of just made it up because it said supporting documents. And so here it didn't say which ones. So I kind of just uploaded everything and anything I could think of that they wanted and it worked.

(10:53):

So that's what I've put on there, but it's not exactly official guidance at that part, but hopefully will be helpful to other people in similar positions. So

Dr Marianne Trent (11:01):

Yeah, people can get hold of this guide. It's totally free. And you can get hold of it by going to gtps.kartra.com/bps-guide. There will, of course, be details in the show notes and will be on screen for YouTube as well. What do you wish you'd known then Esther? Maybe, I don't know, let's go seven years ago. What would have been helpful? Would you have done anything different or do you actually feel that you are going to be a better incoming trainee because of the slightly diverse experiences and the journey you've had?

Esther Teo (11:37):

Yeah, thank you for asking. I think I would have done things quite notably differently. I would have really focused a bit earlier on clinical experience rather than research experience. I think that was my kind of big barrier and big gap. I thought it would be more of a barrier, but I managed to get in first time, which I really, really wasn't expecting. I definitely would have chosen a master's programme that was accredited because though I did manage to do this process, there was quite a few panicky moments in between. And I actually didn't originally get given this membership. I granted the GBC. I applied originally. I waited and I waited and I waited and I followed up. And I had an email to say, "Sorry, you've been completely rejected." It said, "Your degrees aren't accredited and you'll have to do the conversion course. Here's the link to the conversion course." At which point I remember being on holiday and I thought, "Oh no, I found a glimmer of hope.

(12:40):

I really attached onto this, thought this is a perfect career for me. Surely at some point I will get this." Either I though I would get it granted because I had really, really quite significant psychology content in my undergrad and master's, especially my master's. And I thought maybe what they could have said is an option is they could have said, "Actually, these are the top up modules you have to do from the conversion course. You don't have to do the entire thing." Which I also would have been very happy with. But instead they said, "You're completely rejected." I took a couple of weeks and mourned this and was really upset. And then again, quite uncharacteristically, I sent this back to ChatGPT and said, "You should have said I had a shot. Why do you say that? You've got my hopes up." And it said, "Oh, I'm sorry.

(13:27):

I really though you had a shot, but also it seems a bit interesting that this email seems to be from the wrong person. It seems to be from the admissions team rather than the membership team." And I though, "Huh. Yeah, actually now you say it, the email does sound a bit weird because it says, so your degrees aren't accredited rather than we've processed everything you sent in." Because I sent in so much. And so I replied and I replied to the email and I said, "Could someone kind of take another look at this? I'm just wondering if it's gone to the right team. This is your criteria. This how I meet it. I'm a bit confused about what's happening here." And again, I had no response. Had no response for weeks and weeks and weeks. And really uncharacteristically, I just called. I just thought, no, this is not happening.

(14:11):

And I called and I called again. I called every day until I had a response. So then eventually I got through to someone who looked over it again and said, "Yeah, actually this went through to the wrong team." And they reprocessed it. And within an hour I got an email saying you've been granted the entire thing, the accreditation. So that was a really crazy day for me. But back to your original question, I think one of the things that I would have done differently is I would have been a bit more proactive from the start and I would have been quite vigilant because I don't think a lot of people know about this route. I don't think it's used that often. And so I don't think the infrastructure is there really for it a lot of the time. And I think that when you enter all your details, the portal seems to be quite similar for quite a lot of services that they offer.

(14:58):

So I think one of the biggest things is just being really proactive and really clear with your application. Why am I sending this in? What am I looking for? Really, really, really so no one can miss it. Just so clearly, I'm going for the assessment of equivalence. This is where I want this application to be sent. This is the team I want it to be sent to just so there's no slip ups. And then I guess just that piece of advice of even if you do get an initial rejection, just really do check. Really do check because it could be the difference between following this career and then completely giving up because that's the way it was for me. It was just a cool away for me. So yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (15:39):

Oh, Esther, I mean, well done on your perseverance, but also that is a real power dynamic, isn't it? Computer says no. But when you first said, oh, you don't have the criteria, it doesn't meet. I though, well, that's the point. So often we'll just see it say no and be like, oh, well, I tried, but that could have cost you thousands and thousands of pounds and meant that you were sitting alongside people that were retraining from biology or retraining from being a maths teacher who were learning psychology concepts for the first time. Your shoulder by shoulder thinking, I really like being here and I really want this GBC, but I do know this already. That would have been really frustrating and probably quite angry making.

Esther Teo (16:23):

Definitely, definitely. And I think that there was a stage of reflection for me where I thought, if this is a big enough barrier for me that I wouldn't do that for a year or two, then am I really committed enough? And is this really for me? Because I saw around me a lot of people going for this. They're very, very, very committed. They're committed with their time, their efforts, their money, everything. And so there was a period where I thought, well, maybe I don't want it enough if that is the case because I'm not willing to do all of this, even though I really couldn't afford to do that at the time. But so I'm very, very, very grateful that that's something that is available for people, but that is not something that I had to go through because as you said, it would have been really, really frustrating.

(17:06):

My master's course in particular was in the psychology department of UCL. So every one of my taught and examined modules was from the psychology department. And it had more psychoanalysis in it than it did neuroscience, even though it's called neuroscience. It just was quite a small course, so it wasn't accredited. I have since got in touch with the course to say that this is something that I have experienced. And if people are in similar situations with this particular course, because it does have a phenomenal amount of psychology in it, that it's an option. Again, because I just really care about people knowing about this process.

Dr Marianne Trent (17:39):

Yeah. I think you make a really valid point. You've got to be able to be mindful of how much emotional energy you've got left in the tank. And you've already done your undergrad, you've already done your master's. Just before we hit record, we were talking about me having some love in my heart to potentially get a cat. But it doesn't mean I want a whole nother child because I've already got two of those. I haven't got the energy left in me to be pregnant and birth and raise that child in the very early years. I haven't got that in me. And I think it's similar. You've got to be mindful of what you want to do and what feels like that's a reasonable thing that you can manage. So I love that you got the result that you did. And it came in a really timely manner, didn't it?

(18:27):

Because it allowed you to then apply for the doctorate in a quite speedy way.

Esther Teo (18:32):

Very too speedy actually, yes. So the timeline was is that I did get my rejection and had to follow up, but I think I left it quite a long time because I did go into this kind of period of reflection. I went into this period of, well, maybe this isn't for me if I'm not willing to do a whole conversion master's. And then I don't know what switched one day. And I was like, "No, this is not happening. I can't let this happen to me." So I did just call every day. And I think that's when I realised, no, I really, really care about this. I really want to do this. It's something that I'm really passionate about. I'm not a particularly assertive person at all. I don't know where that came from at all, but I think does show that I really did care about this.

(19:12):

So I got the eventual exemption confirmation about a week before the deadline to apply that cycle for the deacon side. And though it was a panic, I think, to get things together. I know everyone says this, but I really didn't expect to get in. So I think I was using it as a kind of practise and what do I have and what do I need and what does this process look like? I really dedicated myself to it to week, which actually came, and this is a whole nother story, but it actually came in a time where when I received the rejection, I though, okay, well, I guess I'll go down to the research route and I'll apply to research PhDs and ended up getting one. And I was at the stage where I either confirm and really go for it and apply for funding with this one with the same deadline or I completely ditch it because I can't do both at the same time.

(20:03):

Or I completely ditch it and I go for this application kind of knowing that I probably won't get in this year or maybe even the following year. And so I thought, I'm going to do it now that I know that this is an option for me. Even thinking about this other route, it just doesn't feel right. And it didn't fill me with the same passion at all. And I though, even if this takes me a couple of years to get in, then I'd still rather do that. And I still prefer the long-term and the career path of this one. So then I had to pull out of that one in the same week as trying to pull together the application for the deacon. And luckily I was surrounded by very, very, very supportive people, including both my references. For example, my professor at the time.

(20:47):

Very, very, very supportive. So I was very lucky in that way that people were willing to kind of really band together and do something last minute and managed to pull something together just for the deadline. And so that was an interesting, stressful week. Almost as kind of panicky and sweaty as this week, but eventually got it in. Yeah.

Dr Marianne Trent (21:06):

Yeah, probably similarly lack of sleep due to the incredible heat we're experiencing at the moment. But I think what this really speaks to is time and time again in the Clinical Psychologist Collective book, people talk about tenacity, patience, perseverance, but also you have to have that unwavering belief that this is for you. And I think people who maybe are no less good applicants, but don't have that doggy determination are more likely to go and do other routes or to say, "Actually, no, I'm not doing this." But if you have that, you are just by percentages, more likely to get what you want ultimately. And you're a fine example of it, Esther.

Esther Teo (21:53):

Thank you. Yeah. I think that at that stage of my life, I think I'm really trying to push myself to kind of go for things and really kind of say, "Why not? Why not this and why not that?" And that's something I've been really working on. I think that I guess this big fear of failure or fear of rejection is a really, really big one. And so I think that can and has put me off a lot of things. But I think it was like kind of nothing to lose, just go for it sort of attitude that I think really, really, really has pulled through to me and been quite life changing in this case.

Dr Marianne Trent (22:26):

Yeah. And this is clearly an authentic path for you. It's what lights you up. It's what lights me up. I couldn't imagine doing anything different. Even today as I was out and about, I was chatting to a really lovely older guy in the street because I talk to strangers. It's what I do. He said he's 86. He was out for a walk. And I was like, "It's really, really hot. Make sure that you're drinking enough." And we had a little chat and then we kind of parted ways. And then he shouted after me and he said, "By the way, my name's. It'd be nice to chat to you in future." Probably that's partly my personality as well, but I believe in using yourself as an intervention and trying to be something that makes a difference because I'm confident probably nobody else spoke to him out and about.

(23:09):

And obviously probably often doesn't because of the response that I got. And what we do matters, but it has to feel authentic to you. And clearly, maybe you don't talk to strangers in the streets, especially if you live in London, but you are clearly driven to this profession and lit up by it.

Esther Teo (23:30):

It's something I love to do actually. I love talking to strangers, much to my partner's demise and my friend's demise because I love it. And I think it's one of my favourite things I guess about myself is that that's something I'm not afraid to do and it's something I love. And I think some of my favourite conversations I've ever had in my life has happened with strangers on the train. And I think one of the biggest gifts of, I guess, being in the mental health space, obviously when you are kind of making small talk with someone or first getting to know someone, it does come up and you say, "I work in a mental health space and I used to work with people with treatment resistant depression and things like psychedelic treatments and stuff and lots of things that kind of generate a lot of conversation." And you do find that, and I don't know whether you find the same thing, that people do just kind of really open up and disclose and you do skip so many stages of small talk, which I don't know how to do that either.

(24:27):

So that really works for me. And I think I've had the most enriching conversations of my life with strangers and I love it too. Yeah. I

Dr Marianne Trent (24:35):

Absolutely agree. I think if you and I ever meet in person, watch out well because there'll be some really incredible conversations. But yeah, I feel like I've had, it might sound a bit narcissistic, but I've had almost unique place to find people in the right time in the right space to potentially change their lives. Even in Ubers, end up doing mini life coaching sessions where they go off and someone even said, "Right, I'm going to look at conversion masters because I've always wanted to do this. And off the back of being in a car with me for 20 minutes potentially changes this guy's life." And I love the power of the potential of what you can do when you're not even striving for anything. There's no goal there. It's just that connection, seeing another person where they're at and being curious. That's what I love.

(25:29):

Yeah,

Esther Teo (25:29):

Absolutely. I agree. There's a lot to learn. There's a lot to learn from people. I agree.

Dr Marianne Trent (25:34):

Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for reaching out to me and pitching this episode. I think it's going to be helpful for so many people. There's details in the show notes and on screen about how people can access that guide. Thank you for putting it together because as I said, it's honestly the most beautiful guide I've ever seen. So well done. Thanks again for your time, Esther.

Esther Teo (25:56):

Thank you so much. Thanks. Thank

Dr Marianne Trent (25:57):

You so much to my guest, Esther Teo. I did forget on camera to wish her all the best with her training, which is starting this coming September. I hope you have an amazing experience. And if you're listening to this as an incoming trainee psychologist, I hope that you find the same. It isn't always easy. I hope that you remain pleased that it's a choice that you've made and that you've fought with so hard for. If things change, I'm here. The podcast is always here. It's not just for aspiring psychologists, it's for anyone undertaking a psychology career at any stage of that career. Obviously, this current episode might have specific relevance for those earlier in their career, but frankly, also as a qualified psychologist, this was still something that I really needed to be aware of, especially in my line of work. If you'd like to get your hands on the free PDF guide, please do head along to gtps.kartra.com/bps-guide.

(27:04):

The details are in the show notes and in the description, and Esther and I would welcome any feedback you have about it. How's this episode been? Has it been useful for you? Has it wet your appetite to go and ask, go and seek your BPS equivalents, or has it left you curious about other aspects of the career? We'd love to hear from you. Drop your comments in, drop your questions like this video. And if you're on Spotify, you can drop episode specific comments and questions too. If you are listening on Apple Podcasts, please do take a moment to rate and review the show. And if you'd really like to support the show and the career, please consider leaving me a Google Review, which is available if you do a Google search for aspiring psychologist. I should come up. You can click leave a review. We did mention the Clinical Psychologist Collective book in this episode, and you get lovely reviews and people find it really validating, really rewarding, and really useful at different stages of their career, including applications, including interviews.

(28:09):

And then also qualified psychologists have read it so that they can renew their insight into what it's like to be earlier in your career. If you found this episode helpful, you might also find an episode I did with Samuel Chu, interesting, about how to become an UK qualified psychologist as an international student. This is the one to look out for, and if you watched the end of this video, it will appear on screen and you can just click go ahead and watch. Thank you so much for being part of my world. I'll look forward to bringing you the next episode of the main podcast episode, Psychology Actually at 4:00 PM on Saturdays, then wherever you get your podcast at 6:00 AM on Mondays. And then we've also got the extra nice little insight episodes that are always solo, always me, called Inner Work, which are available from 8:00 PM UK time, wherever you listen, wherever you watch.

(29:03):

That's where all the good stuff happens. Thank you again. Be kind to yourself. I'll see you soon. Take care.