# ep 115. The Glass Ceiling Part 2 | Coqual Insights with Chris P. Reed

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## [00:00:00] Introduction to the Black Executive Perspective

[00:00:00] A lot of smart kids. They're black executive perspective. Now, my story's not unique. There's thousands of professional of color who have experiences like mine. A black executive perspective. Whether you're aware of it or not, it's a topic that is often avoided. We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor and how we didn't even talk about this topic because we were afraid.

[00:00:25] A black executive perspective in your career.

## [00:00:29] The Challenges of Being a Black Executive

[00:00:29] What has been a bigger problem being a female or being African American or neither? You know, I would have to say being African American. Um, I think that, um, It is still, you know, a, an issue in our environment to accept people of different races, more so than it is gender.

[00:00:51] Um, I, I think I've seen a lot of progress with women in, in corporate America, and I'd like to see more progress with people of color. Welcome [00:01:00] to a black executive perspective, podcast, a safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, especially race and corporate America. I'm your host, Tony tidbit, and I'm excited today because we're going to dive into some really, really heavy stuff.

[00:01:15] In addition, we're going to introduce a new member. Of Tony tidbit and friends. So one of the things that's very important, you know, in our second episode, we talked a little bit about race in corporate America. Why is there still a glass ceiling? We touched on a couple of things, but we really didn't get a chance to dive in deeper and provide you, you know, more of our thoughts, more of the facts, more of the research in terms of what's happening in corporate America today.

[00:01:46] From a gender standpoint, as well as for people of color in terms of moving up the ranks in senior leadership positions. So as we stated in that episode, we were going to come back to this. And today is the [00:02:00] day where we're going to definitely dive in and we're going to devote the majority of this episode.

[00:02:05] On why is there still a glass ceiling? But before we do that, I'm very excited.

## [00:02:11] Introducing a New Member to the Podcast

[00:02:11] Like I said, we have a new member to Tony Tidbit and Friends, and I'm excited to be able to introduce this individual. He's somebody that I've learned a lot from. I'm pretty sure you're gonna learn a lot from. But before I introduce him, I just want to give you a little background in terms of, you know, what is Tony Tidbit and Friends?

[00:02:30] Well, one of the things is I've talked about before. This platform is not about Tony Tidbit just going off and telling his opinions, and trust me, I'm gonna do that, right? But it's more about bringing on other individuals who can provide a different perspective, who may be more relatable in certain things, and more importantly, I don't know everything, right?

[00:02:52] So it's very important to bring other people on. that can be on this platform and help educate, help all of us [00:03:00] learn from one another. So that's where Tony tidbits and friends come from. You guys already know Les Frye who we love. And just hearing your feedback in the episodes that she's appeared in, you love her, her energy, her intellect, everything she's bringing to the table.

[00:03:15] Well, guess what? We're going to continue that. We're going to have other individuals that come on. So you're going to meet. Our friend today, Chris Reed, uh, who's somebody that, like I said, I'm excited about. This guy brings a whole level, whole another level of energy, intellect, and I'm pretty sure you're going to like him as well.

[00:03:32] However, it's not going to stop at that, right? We're always going to be bringing on new individuals to come and join this platform. And matter of fact, you may be listening to this platform right now. You may be watching this platform. Guess what? You may be on this platform as well, right? Where you can come on and chat because this is a safe space where we all want to learn from one another.

[00:03:55] We want to make these uncomfortable conversations about race comfortable.

## [00:03:59] The Importance of Diverse Perspectives

[00:03:59] [00:04:00] And the only way we can do that is bringing on all different types of people from different backgrounds, ethnicities, to be able to share, share their stories, learn, hear their points of view on certain things that's happening in the world, certain topics.

[00:04:13] So. That trend is going to continue throughout a black executive perspective podcast. So my friend Chris Reed, he's joined in the Tony tidbits and Tony tidbit and friends, Chris, welcome my man. Man. Thank you so much, man. Appreciate the platform.

## [00:04:29] Guest Speaker: Chris Reed's Journey

[00:04:29] Appreciate the opportunity and uh, Just love to add because you're doing something real magical here and I think it's a good way to showcase You know what we have going on and in our voice and so but uh, you're happy to be here buddy I'm happy for you to be here, too And so just give us a little bit of your background man Tell us a little bit about where you're from your family and then why you wanted to be a part of this platform absolutely, so As far as being where I'm from, I'm from the Midwest.

[00:04:58] I'm from Illinois, [00:05:00] a town called Peoria, uh, Caterpillar headquartered there forever, and so a lot of my folks, uh, worked the cat and did the factory thing and killed him for the OT, you know, that type of situation. So, uh, grew up around that, but then, um, had aspirations to kind of get out and do something different.

[00:05:15] It was very. Uh, secluded from a, a perspective different from the South. When I moved to the South, I realized, uh, disparities in, in racism. And this is kind of apropos that we talked about the glass ceiling today because we knew kind of where we were and where we were supposed to be and didn't aspire beyond that.

[00:05:32] So I was somewhat of an outsider in that regard. Luckily I got involved in sports and that kind of took me different places. You know, they say, when you get professional, it can take you all around the world. Well, it took me all around the Midwest. So it was one of those kind of deals, but, uh, was always encouraged by my family to, you know, do my thing and, um, was outgoing in that regard, but gotten to school and, uh, have some good opportunities.

[00:05:55] I think 1 of the greatest moments I had was, uh, got an internship at an international commodities brokerage [00:06:00] firm. So, you know, Chicago board of trade. Is there and so they do corn and wheat and stuff that you would think of from the midwest, right? You know you sell these things these commodities And I realized that people could get paid a lot of money to regurgitate information and I was like I was hooked I was hooked Let me just be a smart guy and just say stuff And get paid, you know, so I didn't have to kill him for the ot didn't have to have carpal tunnel surgery None of that, right?

[00:06:22] So that's what I was on, you know from then on and since then i've uh Done a decent job of trying to go where opportunities are. I've lived in a couple of places, lived in Atlanta, got promoted to Little Rock, Arkansas, got promoted again to Dallas, and then, uh, got with a different companies. I've been with five fortune 500 companies.

[00:06:41] Uh, four of which are fortune 50 companies. And so, um, have a good perspective as far as aligns with what you bring in this platform for how things look different places. Some places are more militaristic. Some places are more wide open, open door type situations, but all of them still have that same kind of veil that we can't tend to [00:07:00] peek behind.

[00:07:01] And so I think that that information, that perspective helps me helps your viewers. I've had great mentors, great opportunities, great visibility, uh, fast track programs, things of that nature. So, even in, in, in my current role, um, is very interesting to see kind of the threshold or where you could see yourself.

[00:07:20] Uh, eventually in this, in this rat race, so to speak, you know, awesome, buddy. Awesome. So you got a, a, a very wide background, but let's back up a little bit because you said you got a chance to play sports. Tell us a little bit like what sports, where did you play? So, uh, play football. So I think the funny thing about it was I grew up at a time where, uh, the programming was such that if you want to get out of here.

[00:07:44] We can't afford to do that for you. So you can either go to the military or you can, you know, get this, this hustle on with this with sports thing. And so ran track and, and played football and uh, did pretty good at that. Um, it up until the injuries, you know, so it's one of those things. I talked [00:08:00] to some of my old buddies and they tell that Gale Sayers injury to end of his career for the Bears would've been two weeks off this, you know, with technology the way it is now.

[00:08:07] Right? And so it was one of those times where, um, I ended up getting hurt when I was in high school, but it didn't. Uh, affect my opportunity to, uh, get a scholarship to play football. And that took me seven hours away to Iowa. And, um, ultimately, I ended up getting hurt again early on. And it just, it messed with me emotionally.

[00:08:27] The good news is, the energy, the focus, the passion that I provided to football made school easy. It's just, you know, it's like addiction, right? Addiction, you never Outgrow addiction. You just transfer addiction. So if you if you're a smoker and you don't want to smoke you become an eater You know, that's why it's like people that quit smoking gain weight, you know So you have to have something that you focus your mind on and I end up getting into school And school was pretty easy for me.

[00:08:49] I had i'm blessed with a good recall And so that was the beginning of that regurgitation of information, right? You just read the stuff and then when the tests come you write what you just read like I don't need this no more [00:09:00] But, uh, getting into a field where people could apply it to financial statistics and business calibrations.

[00:09:07] Was a godsend and uh, man, when I lost, when that internship was over, I almost cried real for real, almost cried. Like I went home to my girl and was like, man, it's over like this, because it was like my junior year. So it wasn't like I could go there, you know, immediately out of school type situation. But when I got finished with that, my next job was at State Farm headquarters.

[00:09:26] Because I went to school at Illinois State University in Bloomington, and that's where State Farm is headquartered. And so I got on there and did my State Farm thing. And then, um. Went from there to Mediacom Communications was the fifth largest communications company in the world at that point in time, it was, or in the country, excuse me, and that's when we were doing, uh, uh, T1 lines and, you know, voiceover IP and, and that type of communication stuff.

[00:09:48] And then that led me to Alltel Wireless and Atlanta and then Verizon and ATT, like, you know, just different companies that I've been able to be involved with in that scale. And every time. I just show up to work really. So that's another [00:10:00] thing that's interesting about that. That's where that hard hat killing for the OT mentality comes in is when I moved to the South, me just showing up to work every day and doing what I was supposed to kept getting me promoted.

[00:10:09] I wasn't doing anything special. I was just happy to be there and, and, you know, do my job and it meant something. And so I kind of took that and ran with it. That's awesome. I mean, that's awesome. So listen, I think this would be pretty safe. You ain't got to worry about getting hurt. You know, here, you know, on a black executive perspective podcast, unless, unless you cut your lip or something of that nature.

[00:10:31] Right. And so I think you're good though. So, so tell us though, you know, obviously you, you've, you've done a lot in your career, you know, growing up and going to school in Italy, Illinois is now you're in Dallas. Uh, you know, tell us why you wanted to be a part of this, this podcast. So I think that perspective is everything.

[00:10:53] I mean, I think in the title, the naming convention really caught me in the fact that everybody has a, a series of [00:11:00] perspectives on any given topic. And I think the value is when you can take a combination of those perspectives and add them to your own, because that's how we grow. That's how we expand our horizons.

[00:11:09] We need books, mentors, teachers, things of that nature. You can't live it all on your own on a solitary existence. And so what you provide here is that other side of the table, that other angle, whether it be regional, educational, uh, psychological, cultural, um, it provides something that maybe you didn't think of, or you didn't see.

[00:11:30] It's that aha moment for those who want it. Now, as you know, there's a great, a great quote that says for those who believe no explanation is required. And for those who do not, no explanation will do. So you have some people that are so dogmatic and how they see things. You can't move the needle at all, but the fact is for those who want it You're providing a platform for them to get some of this game And I think that that's very important And if it's an opportunity for me to at least give something from the little piece of life that I've seen thus far Then I want to get the opportunity to do that [00:12:00] and kind of see what happens there And of course your people to be able to tell you hey get that dude off of here He's trash or man.

[00:12:05] He says something that made me think about something You know, and, uh, I like to hear more of that, so we'll see how it goes. All right, buddy. Well, I'm expecting nothing but good things. And, and you make a great, a great point, right? I learned this a long time ago. The mind is like an umbrella. It only works when it's open, right?

[00:12:21] So, hopefully people who come and listen to a Black Executive Perspective or watch us on YouTube, you know, they have an open mind. So, more importantly, welcome, my friend. I'm definitely I've learned a lot from you and just, you know, to be transparent, Chris and I, you know, worked at the same company for a while.

[00:12:39] He used to come to my conversation on race, uh, sessions every week. And he was somebody that provided a great perspective. And like I said earlier, I really learned a lot from him a ton and a lot of other people did as well. So I'm excited that he's going to be here and I'm pretty sure you'll see the value with him as well.

[00:12:59] However, [00:13:00] before we start this conversation, one of the things you're like, we're getting a lot of great feedback. Everybody, Tony, we love the podcast. I'm learning stuff. You're educating us. You know, I love what the things that you guys are talking about. I love the guests that you're bringing. That is awesome.

[00:13:15] And we're going to continue to do that, right? The thing that we need you to do, if you haven't done thus far, please subscribe to our podcast, right? You can subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast, right? Easy way to do it is www. depodcast. com. Click on that link. You will be able to see all of our episodes.

[00:13:36] Go to the right. You'll see the follow button. Click on that button. It'll take you to Apple or Spotify and you can subscribe, subscribe. It'll help us reach more individuals and give us a rating and review again. We're as good as you tell us we are, right? So we need to get the feedback from you in terms of what are we providing?

[00:13:56] Are we providing the right thing? Are we missing some [00:14:00] stuff? Are you interested to come on? Because to be fair, this is going to be the people's platform. Excuse me. This is the people's platform. So we would love to have other people come on and share. And this is how we all learn. So again, subscribe, give us a review and share.

[00:14:15] All right, Chris. You ready to have this conversation, buddy? Absolutely, sir. All right, let's talk about it.

## [00:14:22] The Reality of the Glass Ceiling in Corporate America

[00:14:22] So, if many of you who have listened to our second episode, me, Tony Tibbett, and friends, Why Is There a Glass Ceiling?, uh, we discuss, we were looking at some research from a company called COQL. Let me see if I have them right here.

[00:14:36] So, I'm going to share, and you can be able to go to their website. And be able to download this information that we're going to share with you today, right? And, and so we're going to talk a little bit about the findings that they got from this research. So real quickly, just so everybody's on the same page, let me know who, tell you who COCOA is.

[00:14:57] It says, we are champions of [00:15:00] equity, researchers of culture, and creators of community who empower companies to create diverse and inclusive workforces where every person belongs. Cocoa is a global non profit think tank and advisory group that was founded in 2004 to address bias and uncover barriers to advancement for unrepresented populations in the workplace.

[00:15:24] We produce research that is unique in depth, breadth, and complexity. And rigor tackling urgent workplace issues related to gender, race, ethnicity, disability, and LGBTQ identities. We offer concrete and actionable solutions. Our unique community. The COCO Task Force is made up of more than a hundred member companies.

[00:15:48] These executives and practitioners are leaders in the diversity inclusion movement. We provide them with the latest findings, events, educational opportunities, inspiration, [00:16:00] and mutual connection. Our COCO Advisory Group provides consulting services that include culture audits, sponsorship programs, anti racism initiatives, and leadership development programs to help companies accelerate equity from the workplaces to the world.

[00:16:19] Okay? So as you can see, and here's some of the sponsors of COCO, some of the companies we have, Interpublic Group, Johnson Johnson. KPMG, Morgan Stanley, Pfizer, Unilever, and the Walt Disney Company. So we're going to go over some of their findings, uh, in this, like I said, in their research, which is saying being black in corporate America.

[00:16:45] And at the same time, we're going to talk about why is there still a glass ceiling? in 2023. You excited about that, my friend? Absolutely. I mean, I'm a man itching. Okay, cool. So, so, you know, one of the [00:17:00] things we want to discuss right off the bat, like what are their findings? What are some of the things that just from a summary standpoint, they found out?

[00:17:08] So one of the things that was in their report was that there's actually been a, a slowdown or a ground lost as it relates to the black initiative or the black opportunities. When things started to become more, uh, homogenated, like, uh, people of color, because then it was not just one door for black folks.

[00:17:30] It became a one door that anybody that had any kind of shade to him was able to get into and obviously that creates a bottleneck, right? As it's like, think about a black Friday, right? Pun intended. Um, everybody's trying to go through two doors at Walmart and you got 2000 people, you don't say it wasn't built for that.

[00:17:48] You know what I mean? So, so it's one of them kind of situations where, uh, you know, they looked at the CEOs and your fortune 500 CEOs point. 8%. You know, executives, 3. [00:18:00] 2%. Um, these things come up and it's a glaring when you put it to the numbers, men lie, women lie, numbers don't right when you put it to the numbers is obviously not representative of how black people exist in the The United States, as far as a percentage of the population.

## [00:18:16] The Struggle for Representation in Top Positions

[00:18:16] Um, interestingly enough, it's not also how black people exist as it relates to the employment diaspora, you know, when you get down to the bottom, those numbers go up exponentially, but, you know, at the top, you get that little point, man. It's just interesting because that's perspective. That's opportunity.

[00:18:35] Um, that's really getting what you put in from an education perspective, life perspective. And I think one of the things that they pulled out was that, and it's not for lack of desire. It's not for lack of ambition. It's not for lack of want. It's for lack of opportunity. Yeah. So, and, and I love what you, so I just gotta back up for a second.

[00:18:51] So, number one, the wa the Black Friday thing. Um, you know, uh, 2000 people trying to go through two doors. I, I, that, that's a good one. So you, as you [00:19:00] can see, he definitely brings a different perspective. . I love it. Right? . The other thing though, I, I, I struggle with, 'cause I don't know what diaspora means. So, I mean, is that, did I say it right?

[00:19:09] Is it diaspora DI mean, what is it? What, so, so we say D I'm not, I'm not gonna stephene you on this thing, y'all don't worry, but. You know, it's, it's, it's a makeup from a demographic representation of. So, you know, one of things is people think that we are all the same and we're not, uh, this is how, uh, the criminalization of black folks become, uh, prolific.

[00:19:31] This is how the Mexican hardworking, you know, stereotype, uh, perpetuates is you can't take, you know, uh, philosophy says don't take generals into specifics or specifics into generals. A lot of people who. Conveniently like to generalize things. If you show pictures or in this studies that have been done, Tony, you've seen them, you experimented and showed them, you show a picture of somebody and they look like this, they must have this job.

[00:19:54] And if they look like that, they must have that job. And that type of bias that innate, you know, [00:20:00] understanding of comfort as it relates to who should sit where and get what benefit is a issue that. It's difficult and this creates that glass ceiling. It creates those opportunity barriers that exist. Buddy, totally agree.

[00:20:13] And, you know, and that's the issue. So if, if, if, if you guys remember back when we were chatting in our second episode and Les and I were talking a little bit. about the findings and, and, and, and Chris spoke more from a summary standpoint, but let me give you a little bit from a number standpoint, right?

[00:20:31] So, uh, representing a black adults in the U S at fortune 500 CEOs. The number is 0. 8 percent of fortune 500 black CEOs, just to be clear here. All right. And when we say 0. 8 percent we're talking eight individuals. Okay. And it is less than that. And we'll get into that now. This was when this was done a couple years ago.

[00:20:58] And to be honest, it's less than [00:21:00] that now, right? Now, if we think about that, there have been, I think the fortune 500 started in the 1950s. There have been 1900 CEOs at fortune 500. companies. There have been a total, and I, and I, I got to look at my research, but I believe a total of 12 black CEO. Okay. Now in 1964 is when affirmative affirmative action was created and it was created to make it a more even playing field, to get more minorities.

[00:21:41] Um, um, in corporate America in, uh, uh, not just corporate America, but also from a business standpoint, whether the case may be now, and then if I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, I think it was 1963, 62, we can look it up. And then a year later, they [00:22:00] added women to the, uh, uh, affirmative action. Okay, here's the kicker.

[00:22:08] And this is where less than I got into a little bit because she was saying, Hey, you know, as when we were fighting for civil rights, we're fighting for everybody. I'm not disagreeing with that, right? However, who's benefited from the civil rights legislation? Let's just say affirmative action. Okay? So there were zero black CEOs at fortune 500 companies in 1964.

[00:22:34] I don't want to, and I may be wrong. I don't think there were any women either. Okay. I'm pretty, we can look it up. You can look it up online. Tech e you know, email is Tony, you were wrong, but I, I don't think so. Now there are 44 women CEOs at Fortune 500 con companies. Okay. And, and to be fair, they, you know, that could even be disparaging, right?

[00:22:58] Should they, you know, [00:23:00] that's still 456 that are male. Right. So that's not, I mean, it's, it ain't nothing to, to, to, to jump up and down for. Right. There's still an issue there. However, think about it for a second. It's only six CEOs now that are black. And to be fair, there were only two women, black CEOs in the fortune 500 company.

[00:23:26] And one just left about a year ago. So that was only one. Okay. Out of 1900 CEOs from 1950 something when they started, when they came with the fortune 500. So think about that for a second. All right. Just, just, just marinate. on that. And we're going to dive in deeper and provide more research. But this is what Coco was saying.

[00:23:49] Coco was saying, right? When we look at executive C and and that's the answer, that's abominable because end of the day to say that there are not enough African [00:24:00] Americans Male and female that could not run a fortune fine country is asinine. Okay, that makes no sense. Okay, however, let's keep moving.

[00:24:11] Executive senior level officials or managers, 3. 2 percent that are African American. Professionals. That's 8%. And in college degree holders is 10%. Okay. So now some people could say, well, wait a minute, Tony, you know, at the end of the day, you know what, every, every, every, uh, a position that has to be black people that has to be this, they have to be that, you know, no, right?

[00:24:39] No. The population of African Americans here in the United States, depending what, what, what, what census you, you, you read is 12, 13%. Okay. So at the day, nobody's saying it should be 50%. It should be at least 10, 12, 13 percent based on the population. When you have [00:25:00] 0. 8%, guess what? That a legislation that was put out from affirmative action standpoint.

[00:25:07] It didn't work. And people were trying to destroy it from day one. And if you look at the numbers, it really didn't work. So and I'll challenge you in saying that it didn't work for us. Because if you look at the legal statistics. More lawsuits were filed by, uh, white women to get opportunities to get foots in the door than anything else.

[00:25:31] And a lot of that success is going to be because you have a white man at home to back you up. To go to the country club and say, hey, my wife should be on this board or doing this thing or that thing. And so it became a coalition type movement. Because you, you don't want to have to go home as a married person.

## [00:25:47] The Importance of Sponsorship and Advocacy

[00:25:47] I don't want that smoke either. So anything that she wants, I'm gonna try to grease the wheels and get it figured out. And it helped move the needle for them to hit this 44 because they just didn't want these problems at home, to be honest with you. But that feminism, that liberalism, [00:26:00] that really helped move it.

[00:26:01] And they piggybacked on affirmative action. So even the sentiment may have been, we thought it was for us, or we thought we could benefit from it based on how it was sold, but it absolutely did generate a needle move. For women now from a, uh, finding a wages perspective and all that, they still got some making up to do.

[00:26:19] But the fact is it would happen for them. We thought would be the same residue that would happen for us. And for whatever reason, uh, that wasn't the case we were wrong, but it, you know, that's what it was. So let me push back a little bit on just, and I know what you're saying, but let me just push back a little.

[00:26:35] The 44 seat and women that became CEOs, they didn't need a husband. Okay. They were talented enough to do it on their own. And we don't even know if they're married or not. Okay. So let's just be fair here, right? Those women who became the leaders of those organizations. Deserved it. They were they showed what they could do.

[00:26:57] They worked their butt off. They face all [00:27:00] different type of, you know, gender discrimination On the way up and they're probably still dealing with stuff So we I I want to give them their due right definitely want to give them their due Your point though the way I hear it Is more having an advocate that, right, a sponsorship that is somebody that looks like you may not be a woman, right?

[00:27:21] But there was males that said she could do the job. There were people that stood behind them 100 percent and sponsored them all the way up the ladder, right? And rightfully so, because if they didn't have that, they wouldn't have been able to make it, right? So that makes total sense. You need to have sponsorship.

[00:27:39] You need to have. You know, uh, people that advocate and we say advocate, not somebody say, yeah, I think she, she, or he would be good. Somebody that really stands and has your back 100 percent and not just saying that you'd be good, but they're, they have, they're invested in your success because they know when you become successful, wherever entity [00:28:00] that you end up working at that entity.

[00:28:03] Will become successful. So that's a, that's a big thing. That's a huge thing. And without having, we're going to hear a little bit about that too later on, but without having that, it makes it tough. Absolutely. But, but you know, and it's, I think it's easy as low hanging fruit to blame the system. But when you think about it, you know, like we always say, follow the money, right?

[00:28:24] So the economic push, think about some of the strides we made, even from a civil perspective, from a rights perspective, legalities, it was due to economic boycotts. Let's not, let's not kid ourselves, right? It was due to when we started affecting the money. Then they said, okay, let's listen and give them a little of this.

[00:28:39] Give them crumbs here and there. And that was that. It's not like that in the corporate dynamic of it. Because if you think about it, uh, the CWA, the community communications workers of America did a study recently, 126 apples, highest job, Apple, the big company, Apple, successful company, Apple, 126 of their highest jobs, 78 percent are white.[00:29:00]

[00:29:00] 78 percent of those holding that job are white. Microsoft from GeekWire, 4 percent black of the highest jobs. 4%. Um, Amazon, 5 percent from GlobalData. So, here's the situation. What is my financial advantage for having that diversity, for having that representation? It appears that the most successful companies, that's just three companies.

[00:29:21] I understand that. Don't kill me on the numbers in that regard. But, there is no de incentivization of those people not to have Black representation or women representation or whatever, because they still getting that bread as constructed. And so it is hard to convince someone who's living high off the hog to move to another farm.

[00:29:46] I'd love it. Okay. Yeah. So, so I can't, you just threw me on the last, the last phrase, Dovrah. I'm from Illinois, I told you. I don't even know how to [00:30:00] respond. But, you know, it's okay. It's okay. So, here's the thing though. So, I'm not disagreeing with you in terms of, um, people in, looking in their own, when, look, at the end of the day, When, when we, you know, wherever we worked at and a position opened up, what's the first thing that happens?

[00:30:19] When a position opens up, they usually say, who do you know, right? They go to people and ask them to look into their network in terms of people that they know that would be a good fit. Nine times out of ten, people, most people think that we send and put an application in through the front door.

[00:30:37] Eventually, you get, no, nine times out of ten, that don't happen, all right? They start with the employees first. So, that's no different on that level. They basically, so, if you don't know anybody of color, If there's nobody in your network, you ain't, you ain't going to recommend nobody, right? That's just the bottom.

[00:30:57] That's the first thing. That is, that's the [00:31:00] bottom line. So if you're, you don't have a diverse set of friends or diverse set of professionals that you work with, and then a position opens up, right? And then to your point, now taking your point to the next level, if only 4% Of people at the company are of color and or, or 76 percent of the people at the senior high paying jobs at the senior level are white.

[00:31:24] And guess what? They say, Hey, we just got this new CEO, COO position, or we need somebody that's going to be a controller. Are we going to need this? Who do you know? They don't know a bunch of other, uh, diverse individuals. So they're going to keep that cycle of people, uh, that look like them coming through the door.

[00:31:43] Does that make sense? It does. The issue with that, though, is it takes a brave person. The one thing I know, the one thing I've experienced, even at all these companies I've been in, if I see a person of color position is because of attrition. Like they fought a war of attrition. They've [00:32:00] survived. They get my respect off top because they've survived so many people try to get them out the paint.

[00:32:06] You know what I mean? They've survived and made it there and I get them folks to salute and as conversation, if I can, you know, so I'll pay for lunches and everything just to gleam. How did you, how did you make it through the gauntlet? Real talk. Because the fact is this, When you get to those positions, especially where we from, you know, I'm from a city, you from Detroit, you know what I mean?

[00:32:24] So a lot of it is, man, I remember we used to, we used to go to Missouri down south when I was a kid and I used to always get teased because I talked like TV, right? Like they had, they little slangs, colloquialism, this, that, and I spoke like I spoke, and they don't talk like TV because that's how Walter Cronkite and Ted Koppel and them, you know, I spoke like them.

[00:32:42] But the fact is. You have to create a sense of comfort in order to be in those circles. You got to go to church with these folks and go to the golf club with these folks. And you got to go out of your element. Even through the educational process, you have to go out to a PWI. You have to go out of your element for them to even get exposed to you in that [00:33:00] regard.

[00:33:00] So these people have had to leave a little bit of themselves behind in order to make it to that upper echelon, that next level. I won't call it upper echelon cause there's no better. But in order for you to get to that, that position where they see you, They got, and we like to call it me and my fellas, see them.

[00:33:13] They like to see you in shorts, right? Like go to, you gotta go to the pool parties, all this other stuff. So we feel like they know you as a person, but you know, it's, it's a great distinction between that and parading, um, and giving up kind of who you are culturally, because you can't take what we do, where we from there that don't that, like they say in Texas, that dog don't hunt.

[00:33:33] And, and so you, you are making a, you, you're mitigating some type of aspirational goal for loss of some self. And it's a good thing and it's required for the next generation. That's the thing about this journey. Right, right. Go ahead. And look, you're a hundred percent right, um, in terms of, you know, um, them, um, Losing or more importantly, like you were saying the stuff that they have to go [00:34:00] through, right?

[00:34:01] And so what we're gonna do because I was gonna go somewhere else, but let's just Cuz you got me dying laughing. So one of the things though is this I just want to break misnomers misconceptions and stereotypes so one of the things here in Cocoa one of the things that You know, and going back to what you said when you were saying one of the reasons why you, you wanted to come here and, and, and, and be part of Tony tidbit and friends on a black executive perspective is that, you know, you want to share perspectives you want, you know, and try to reach people that have an open mind.

[00:34:36] Right? So one of the things though, that I've heard, Yeah. You've probably heard is that black people or people of color are not ambitious. Okay, they're, you know, you, you, you, they get tired. You put them under a shade tree, throw them an apple and they'll be good. Right. Well. And we, we all know that as BS, right?

[00:34:59] But [00:35:00] don't go by our, what we think. Let me tell you what Coco talked about here.

## [00:35:05] Addressing Misconceptions and Stereotypes

[00:35:05] It says black professionals aren't letting the stopping the short of the C suite stop them from a lack of desire. We find that black professionals are more likely than their white counterparts to be ambitious in their careers and to aspire to a top job, right?

[00:35:24] So. They're people not coming in and, and, you know, Oh, I got a nice position. I'm good. I'm just gonna sit here and chill. No, they're willing. They're willing to do in the, put in the work and their ambition. They come, they're coming in and spot expiring, inspiring. Aspiring, I should say. Aspiring to be at a top level.

[00:35:44] Okay? They got their, they go get their master's degree. Some of them have PhDs. They go to business school. They're not doing that because they ain't got nothing else to do. To your point, backing up, they know the higher they move up in corporate America, the more [00:36:00] they're going to be lonely and they're going to have to give up part of their, you know, I don't want to say identity, but back to your point, they're going to have to, you know, they're not going to be in a comfortable situation.

[00:36:10] They're going to be hanging on going out to parties or being boardrooms with the majority of people that look like, don't look like them and they're willing to do it. Okay. So at the end of the day, this has nothing to do with. Lack of ambition. It has nothing to do with lack of education. It has nothing to do with lack of intellect or lack of desire.

[00:36:31] It has to do that. There's a ceiling that is put on them. Okay. And at the end of the day, this ceiling stops them in 2023 from moving further. The corporate ladder, even though they're highly qualified, highly intellect, understand business practices, represents a diversity group of individuals here in the United States can [00:37:00] provide more diverse of thought in terms of how to reach people, business mechanisms, the whole nine yards.

[00:37:06] They just don't get the opportunity. Let me give you something that was given to me, uh, gracefully. I had a guy, he was high up in the company, a brother that, uh, was a mentor. And one of his advice to me was gain more mentors and things of that nature. And he put me on once again, sponsorship, right? He put me on from a mentoring perspective with a white executive and me and him got cool enough to where he was candid enough.

[00:37:31] With me to say one of the things that he's talked about or heard about in his circle was the fact that black executives can create a sense of, um, not inferior intimidation, because what you do know about us is if we sit in one of them seats. We done did the damn thing. Like there is no body that's cousin or nobody, no nepotite, no nothing.

[00:37:57] We absolutely checked off all the money. If [00:38:00] I'm the president, I have perfect attendance. I went to Harvard law. I did this and that. There's no scandals on my name. I didn't have a parking ticket. We gotta be so great to get the same thing. But when we get in there, even at junior levels, right? The CC levels, C suite levels, it becomes intimidating to people who didn't.

[00:38:19] Measure up or didn't have a's in school and this and that. And when you start articulating, show that because you're doing it as an audition to show you can do more, be better, be higher up the rung. Right. But what happens is the emotion of the people that are around you tend to see, wait a second, he's, or she's.

[00:38:36] Embarrassing us. She's running circles around us. The only fairness meritocracy that exists is in sports. Because if I can shoot, I can shoot. I don't care what color. If I run fast, I run fast. It doesn't matter what color, but it's not a situation where, and I talked to Africans, people from Africa about this.

[00:38:52] They are so disillusioned with. Corporate America, because I had better test scores than this guy. I was magna ness, I was whatever, [00:39:00] whatever. And even when we get in here and talk about the job, this dude is dumb as hell. Why is he ahead of me? Why is he, and they can't rationalize how it's not a meritocracy, it's a, it's a political, you know, ecosystem.

[00:39:11] And those are the reasons why when it's subjective like that, well you don't have to take a test to be the CEO or take a test to be the COO. It's always gonna be difficult for us because then they could just. Move to goalposts or create new rules. Is that a prescription to say. Tony, if you did this job, this job, this job, this job, you would end up here, right?

[00:39:30] No way. It never happens. And every time we start gaining ground, uh, let's just move to goalposts. Now I just spent two years on a, on a sabbatical doing something that you said was required. And that ain't even, I got a Six Sigma, you know, certification. And now when we do Six Sigma here no more. You know what I mean?

[00:39:45] So it's that kind of stuff too. It doesn't matter, right? At the end of the day, if they want to, if they see the value in you, they would promote you, right? Here's the, I want to, I want to give you antithesis because there's some people believe that black people or people of color [00:40:00] only got promotions because they're black.

[00:40:03] Okay. Because some quotas needs to be filled and they eliminate. All the, the accolades, all the achievement that they did to get those positions, all right, because at the end of the day, they only got it because they were black. I, I, I, I gotta tell you the story. Sir, when, when, when, when Denzel Washington won the, um, Academy Award when he did, uh, what was it?

[00:40:27] Uh, it was a training day, right? And, and, and, and my boy and, and, and I like, I like Denzel, but, uh, what's his name was up for too. Uh, what's his name? He was gladiator. Um. Russell Crowe. Russell Crowe. Right. Great actor. Right. Russell wins. I mean, Denzel wins. First thing. He got it because he was black. Right.

[00:40:46] Not that he a great actor. Not none of that. No, it doesn't even matter. It all. I mean, that's the go to. Okay. That's the. So to your point. When you see somebody that's up a higher [00:41:00] level, you're right. They didn't do nothing. They checked every box. They worked hard, blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, the outside world says, nah, they didn't do nothing.

[00:41:10] They got it because they were black. And here's the kicker. Coco says this, right? While nearly two thirds of black professionals agree they have to work harder than their white colleagues to advance in their careers, very few white professionals see it that way. Most white professionals just aren't educated about or aware of this reality.

[00:41:33] So they don't see that this person jumped through a million hoops. They got to go through here, this and that, the stress, the whole nine yards, they're working their butt off.

## [00:41:42] Breaking Down Stereotypes in Corporate Promotions

[00:41:42] But when they get promoted, nah. She didn't do nothing. She got the promotion because she was black, right? And that is real. And we got to break that because at the end of the day, when my white friends get promoted, I don't hear nobody saying he got the job because he was white.

[00:41:58] All right. You don't hear that. She [00:42:00] got the job because she was white. You don't hear that. Right. So it's always about. They were really smart. All right. I'm tell you why he got that job. He was smart. If I got a nickel for every time I heard somebody say somebody got promoted because they were smart and then six months later they fizzled out, I would be a rich man.

[00:42:20] Oh my gosh.

## [00:42:21] Understanding the 'Black Tax' in Corporate America

[00:42:21] But, but, but how do we graduate from accepting the black tax? You and I both have been conditioned in corporate America to understand we have to do twice as much to get to the same destination. It's the black tax. And we, I was kind of raised with it, even in a. In a non scholarly perspective, if you want something, you got to be willing to give it all and sacrifice it all and have bad marriages and not be around your kids and kill them for the oath.

[00:42:47] Like all these things, it was the black tax and the idea of we have to do more in order to just get a little bit, it's, it's almost like the three fourths type situation or, you know, um, from, from the voting perspective. And we kind of inherited that [00:43:00] mentality that we have to do more just to get. To the same level and unfortunately, I, the, the people I know that are in certain roles, they just have absorbed it and accepted it.

[00:43:10] Like, I know I have to this and that just to whatever. Whereas, you know, white folks, I want to see your badge number. I want to talk to somebody. You get a lot of Karen action going on when they feel that this is not justified. They want to talk to someone. They want to see a manager. We just don't want no problems.

[00:43:26] You know what I'm saying? We just don't want to lose this job. You know what I mean? Exactly.

## [00:43:31] The Struggle for Equality in the Workplace

[00:43:31] Here's the kicker. So we talked about earlier how there were eight black CEOs, right? Um, and we said two of more women. We talked about in this last few minutes, all the things you brought it up, all the things that that individual to make it to that level, what they have to go through.

[00:43:55] Right now we're sitting here, we're giving our opinions. Okay, [00:44:00] which that's what we do.

## [00:44:01] Highlighting the Journey of Black CEOs

[00:44:01] However, we're going to play a clip. Rosalyn, who used to be the CEO. Of of Walgreens. Okay. And she was the second, uh, woman to become a CEO at a fortune 500 company. Second black woman. Second black women, right? Black woman.

[00:44:21] So now look, let's be clear here, right? Before we play this clip. Okay. Now. Let's paint the picture. She worked her way up. She finally got to the pinnacle. And trust me, she had a bunch of other, and we'll give her background after we play the clip, right? Typically, she made it to that level. She could say, guess what?

[00:44:44] If I made it, anybody can make it. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Double A, let's hear what she says.

## [00:44:50] The Disappointment of Limited Representation

[00:44:50] This is a clip from Rosalind Brewer, CEO of Walgreens. Is it more disappointing or surprising that of all the, uh, CEOs in the [00:45:00] Fortune 500, there are only two female African American CEOs? Only two. Right. You and the CEO of, uh, of, of, um, Teachers is the only other one, I think.

[00:45:10] Yes, TIA. And so, are you surprised that at this late date in our history, we only have two, or disappointed? Well, I'm more disappointed than I am surprised. Um, I'm not surprised because I know what it took for me to get here and I know the trials and tribulations that I've been through. And, um, you know, I'm not quite sure a lot of people would want to withstand that.

[00:45:33] But I would tell you that the disappointing part is that, um, this is just, is, is totally ridiculous that there's only two of us. Um, I think, you know, it's going to go beyond mentoring and sponsoring. It's, it's, um, pipeline, you know, filling the pipeline effectively, getting, um, people of, um, Different races in operating roles, um, and having the confidence that, you know, that they can do it because they [00:46:00] absolutely can.

[00:46:01] So there you go.

## [00:46:02] The Importance of Diverse Leadership

[00:46:02] So, so number one, let's, let's, let's, let's break that down a little bit. Okay. First thing she said is what you were talking about, what she had to go through to get to that level. Okay. The bottom line is she was appalled that it's only two of us. This is re This is Now think This is my point here.

[00:46:23] Here's somebody, she could easily say, Well, if I got there, anybody can get there, right? That's what you hear. Well, this per Back to that meritocracy thing, right? Well, guess what? If If The reason they're not there, they ain't qualified. That ain't true. It's not true, right? She's saying, I had to jump through a million hoops, and I did everything I needed to do, And there's a ton of other people who've done the same thing, and it's only two of us.

[00:46:53] Now it's only one. Roz Brewer became the CEO of Walgreens in March at 2020, in March of 2021. [00:47:00] At the time, she was the only third black woman head of a head fortune 500 company on a non interim basis. So there was another one, but it was for like three, four months, six months, right? However, Brewer is no longer the top executive.

[00:47:18] She left. Okay? Think about that. She left. She was there for like three years. Okay. She also, and just background, she basically ran several other companies, country companies. She's on multiple boards. Okay.

## [00:47:37] The Challenges Faced by Black Women in Leadership

[00:47:37] The other black woman that's on, uh, that's a, uh, a fortune 500 CEO is Lathansia Brown Duckett, who's leading TIA Cref, which they kind of reference there.

[00:47:48] Right. And here's the kicker. This is out of Forbes. Forbes says the recent ousting of Brewer confirms our research findings that women of color [00:48:00] face higher expectations when it comes to performance and steeper cliffs when analysts and the media judge. They're missteps. Okay. And this is Alexis Smith Washington.

[00:48:14] Uh, who basically chairs Oklahoma State University Business School. Much of the success in these roles rely on maintaining the trust of these stakeholders. Black women are too often seen as risky bets by those who make the calls on leaders. There is simply less room for error when black women So this is back to that meritocracy, that subjectivism.

## [00:48:44] The Impact of the 'Black Tax' on Career Progression

[00:48:44] The scrutiny is so much higher because of the tax. The tax is higher, the black tax is higher, the scrutiny is higher. She was, and another thing, you have to think about this, now I'm sure you've seen it in your career, I've seen it in mine. Why aren't you satisfied? Why aren't you? It's you're dictating my ambition, right?

[00:48:59] Because [00:49:00] you're saying she was at Starbucks and she was, she was the chick there. And basically the conventional, the conventional thought amongst others is that's good enough, man. Beach be cool. You know what I'm saying? Stand down. And when you, when you have that ambition, you have that drive and you want more for yourself, for your family, for your legacy, for your lineage.

[00:49:19] You are, are overambitious. You want too much. You're, you're, you know, you're kicking, you're all kicking your coverage. Right? And so that, that, that type of mentality is also something that affects us in the fact that you are already the best, the richest, you're already in my neighborhood, you're already whatever, whatever you're catching up, you're already past my kid or past my brother.

[00:49:43] And so therefore you need to kind of calm down before you pass me. And that type of insecurity is why this thing perpetuates that that glass ceiling is based off a lot of psychological insecurity It's not economic because once again, we can do it But the problem is [00:50:00] if you if you did a a financial accounting or forensic perspective on all ceos There's been numerous missteps I was under one at at& t that just kept making missteps and kept his job and kept getting bonuses because he was allowed the latitude To cook.

[00:50:14] Exactly. And you in the kitchen checking every recipe when a black person get in, like, what's in that? Let me taste that. Like, man, let me, let me cook. You do not get second chance. You have to be perfect, right? And Walgreens, you know, Walgreens said, Hey, we're going in a different direction. We're focusing more on healthcare side of the business.

[00:50:31] Our board and leadership team will intensify our focus, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It says that CNBC says Walgreen's shares are down more than 32%, which is partly attributed to declines in customer demands for COVID tests and vaccines. If you want to keep to your point, if you want to keep somebody or you to your point, you want to give them latitude to things were going great.

[00:50:51] Now it took a downturn. Let's give this person a chance to get this out of this situation, right? There's none of that, right? And look, we both, we, we haven't been [00:51:00] CEOs, but we both experienced this in our careers, right? Where you have a fear. If I mess up, that's it. Okay.

## [00:51:08] The Need for Advocacy and Allies in Career Advancement

[00:51:08] Now let's hear what Rosalind says.

[00:51:11] Cause double A, she has a, he asked her a great question, a good follow up question. So let's hear what she, how she answers this question. In your career, what has been a bigger problem, being a female or being African American, or neither? You know, I would have to say being African American. Um, I think that, um, it is still, you know, a, an issue in our environment to accept people of different races, more so than it is gender.

[00:51:41] Um, I, I think I've seen a lot of progress with women in, in corporate America, and I'd like to see more progress with people of color. Flat out. Right. She could easily said, Hey, listen, you know, being, she could have said, Hey, being a black woman is really, you know, blah, blah, blah. Or, you [00:52:00] know, this and that flat out being African American.

[00:52:03] Right. And this is somebody who, who went through, who went all the way up to the pinnacle of success and being a CEO of Walgreens. And she's saying flat out for whatever reason, for whatever reason, when it comes to people of color. There's issues, right? Now, is women all squared away right now? No, you spoke a little bit about earlier, there's still pay inequities.

[00:52:27] There's still things that women deal with. However, from a gender versus a color thing, it's a lot different. Absolutely. And it's, I think that if you even look at when you guys listen to this, I would, I would advise you to rewind it. Listen again to the tone. You can see in her tone, how disappointed she was in that second question.

[00:52:47] First question, she was ready for that, like whatever. But, but I think reflectively she was thinking it back and thinking, man, you know, it's sad and she had said, you know, point blank, it's sadness, it's a ridiculous, but the tone was that [00:53:00] it's so disappointing that that's the case. And it's due to lack of opportunity.

[00:53:04] The difference between a star and a superstar is opportunities. There's players in, in the NBA. That could shoot that thing, but the players ain't confident, ain't no shots, right? So they know when I shoot, I gotta go 80%. So, so you got volumes, you know, they get the opportunity to be volume shooters. And it's not even in the ascension to the pinnacle of, of the organization.

[00:53:26] It's in the path. We get a lot of barriers in the path, in the opportunities, in the. Advertisement of, of positions in the programs in the, you know, um, even assignment of mentors and things that answer, we gotta go get it. Right. We always have to go get it. It's not going to be, if we think that we're going to get the same doors and opportunities and, and bells and whistles, shame on us.

[00:53:51] And we believe that about ourselves and folks believe that about us. If we didn't get it, it's because we didn't try hard enough. Let's give you another clip, right?

## [00:53:59] The Importance of Diversity in Corporate Success

[00:53:59] [00:54:00] From Melody Hobson, right? And Melody Hobson is the co CEO and president of Arrow Investments, a Chicago based firm with over 16 billion in assets.

[00:54:10] She also sits on the boards of Starbucks, JPMorgan Chase, and was chairwoman of DreamWorks board until it was sold to Comcast. Alright, so let's hear what Melody says about these issues. Well, you know, in those examples that you said, in those days, it was very rare to have a CEO talk up on this subject at all.

[00:54:33] And now, as you know, we're hearing from Starbucks. So many CEOs saying that they do want to make their workforces more diverse. They do want to do a better job at that. How can they really make that happen? What do they have to do to move the needle? Well, first of all, I think it's corporate America's turn.

[00:54:50] So just so you know, I think that we have solved some of these issues around, uh, politics and policy in the sixties with laws and the [00:55:00] like, but now this is really. Has has become a conversation that is essential inside of corporate America, because it's a it's essential to corporate America success or failure.

[00:55:12] I've been very open and saying, if you are not a diverse. company. You're not a 21st century company, and ultimately you are committing corporate suicide. It's not a question of if you will die. It's when now it could take a long time. But if you don't have diverse people in your organization over time, that is going to be a major, major problem.

[00:55:35] So she's just flat out and she's 100 percent correct, right? We all know that, you know, depending on who you read in the next 20, 30 years, there's going to be more people of color in the United States than there will be white people, right? The majority of people, uh, will be a people of color. Um, and at the end of the day, but even from that standpoint, it, there's so much intellect, talent that's being left out.[00:56:00]

[00:56:01] When you don't have a diverse organization. Oh, it was like you said, like the name of convention of this, you know, podcast itself. It's that perspective that's valuable. It's very valuable. So it's a shame that we don't have that. First of all, also shout out to Starbucks. I don't even drink coffee, but I'm going to get a gift card for some lemon loaf because Rosalind was at Starbucks and Melanie was at Starbucks and Magic has some Starbucks going on.

[00:56:24] Like they, they fooled with us, man. We might want to, you know, look at that. But to be fair though, to that point. There are companies. So, so we're sitting here talking from a broad brush, but there are companies that really take this seriously and have done a tremendous job in terms of making sure that their workforce was not just diverse on the lower levels, but was diverse on the senior level.

[00:56:47] And they have a serious commitment to that, right? They're not just throwing, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, verbiage at it. So, you know, you know, I think Chris Rock even said, if you go to Lululemon, you see [00:57:00] on the, on, on the, on a window outside, we are a diverse organization and we don't care this and that. So what?

[00:57:07] It doesn't mean anything, right? At the end of the day is what are you doing internally? In terms of diversifying your organization, but also making sure that you have diverse thought, diverse ideas, all the things that will help you to her point, be able to be a successful organization in the 21st century.

[00:57:27] And she's, and she's right. And people might, that ain't gonna never happen. They would never die. Yeah, they would. Because at the end of the day, if everybody's going this way. And you're staying here. And I've been in some industries where, you know, they were slow to change. Okay. And the audience, you know, we're in, I'm in advertising and the audience moved over here.

[00:57:47] They read newspapers no more. They're getting their news online. And the newspaper industry is saying, ah, that's a fad there. But guess what? The audience left, the money went with them. And now that industry used to be like [00:58:00] this. Is like that. All right. So you can make a huge mistake and don't pivot and don't follow what's happening from a business standpoint in terms of your customers, your audience and the whole nine yards and miscalculate.

[00:58:13] And it can make it definitely affect you. Okay, so, so, but she's right on point how there's a ton of research out there in terms of showing from a business standpoint that by having a diverse organization, Okay. Uh, helps the bottom line, right? So, so I am pretty sure if you didn't see that you want to go back and record it and listen to it, but it will definitely provide that that insight.

[00:58:41] So, so let's get back to Melanie because she's got some solutions in terms of what she believes companies can do, um, in terms of being able to, to, to meet this 21st, 21st century.

## [00:58:55] The Role of HR in Promoting Diversity

[00:58:55] What do you say to those CEOs and business leaders of what they [00:59:00] have to do to bring about real change? What would you like them to see?

[00:59:03] The key one or two things. There are three things. So we talk about the three P's that are black corporate directors conference where we bring together corporate directors from Fortune 500 companies who are black as well as Latin X and we say to them, we want to make sure the civil rights agenda is also in the boardroom because we think that is a part of your fiduciary duty and ultimately leads to the enhancement of shareholder value.

[00:59:26] So there are three piece people first and foremost, if it matters, it counts. Start counting. And what I say to people over and over again, math has no opinion. You can be very emotional about this if you have data. And so the data should be start from the top of the organization, the board level, all the way down to all levels of the organization.

[00:59:47] Count by ethnicity, no multicultural umbrella with everyone under one heading of race and gender. Count by Black, Latinx, Asian, et cetera, to see [01:00:00] where you're over or underrepresented. So that, that makes total sense, right? Break it up. Look exactly where you are. Don't just have white and other. Break it up in terms of all the different ethnicities.

[01:00:15] See exactly what that percentage looks like. And I love the thing when she says starts with people, cause that's basically what it comes down to. But you have to have companies is willing to leave from the front and let you in to see the books. A lot of companies are not going to open the doors and allow for those type of, they have internal departments that can skew the numbers or make them look a certain way or whatever the case would be, or give you enough to keep them in a, in a good light without giving you, you know, the unabridged version.

[01:00:41] And so it's, it takes a brave leader. And more often than not, it's somebody with a diverse mindset that's already on that path or somebody that is representing that diaspora, right, that can say, you know what, we do a good job and we're proud of ours here. So. Open the doors and let them in and let them, you know, pull these numbers.

[01:00:59] But [01:01:00] I, I fear that it, it may be a hard press to get that without some type of a sanction or some type of a governmental scrutiny, you know, in order to get these government contracts or this or that you got to have an S thing with, with publicly traded companies. You, you know, that somebody's watching. So you're more likely to be a good actor.

[01:01:19] You know, that there's government funding or subsidies or things like that, that require a level of diversity and inclusion that the, and it's not quotas, it's just making sure that you're representing, uh, the country as a whole to a great degree. And you're spending in your everything, you know, your everyday practices.

[01:01:34] But if you don't have that scrutiny, if you're a privately owned company, or it's a lot of companies as big, that's not public. It's a lot of companies as big where people get it. It's not just all, it's not only 500 companies out there. People don't think fortune 500 is, I mean, it's only 500 companies.

[01:01:48] It's thousands and thousands of companies. And so a lot of. Uh, the proof is going to be in the pudding and a lot of people are not going to let you check the recipe. And if that's the case, then it is what it is, right? Because at the end of the day, those [01:02:00] companies, you know, they may from a short term be okay, right?

[01:02:03] But then they're going to struggle, right? Because at the end of the day, if, and you said it, it's about leadership. From the ground up, we just gave Starbucks, you know, you know, uh, applause, uh, about, you know, wow, what do they got going on?

## [01:02:16] The Importance of Transparency in Promoting Diversity

[01:02:16] Well, that, that didn't just happen. That wasn't luck. That was leadership.

[01:02:19] Right. And so if you want to really do this, you're going to be transparent. So let's hear the second peak. The next P is purchasing. Last century's idea was minority purchasing or procurement. Make sure that you have business diversity as well, that as an organization, you're doing business with all kinds of people, all types of organizations.

[01:02:42] So look at your corporate spend by category. And we all know the biggest areas of corporate spend today. Are professional services, financial services, technology. How are you doing in those big areas of spend? Not last century spend, which were things like measuring, uh, [01:03:00] minority contributions and construction and things like that.

[01:03:03] It's not that that's not important. It's just two thirds of our economy right now is a service economy. We want to make sure that's captured. And look, that makes sense, right? Who are you spending money with, right? It's important to to diversify, not just internally, but externally as well, because at the end of the day, by doing that, you're going to broaden your horizons in terms of not just people in terms of in the company, but also people outside of the company that could lead to a lot of different things, bringing in, Different diverse companies is going to provide a different type of level of service, different ideas, different talent, the whole nine yards, right?

[01:03:42] Which is going to help you become a lot better and grow whatever your business outcomes are. I was, it's funny, this is near and dear to my heart. I got awards on the wall for, uh, uh, diversity purchasing, right? I was in the, uh, uh, Diversity magazine as one of the key [01:04:00] purchasers, you know, for some years, because I knew the value and not only, uh, buying, but also mentoring and, and helping them evaluate how to deal with large companies, how to deal with large scale and, and, uh, change their philosophy as it relates to even their employment dynamics, uh, to make sure that they could grow on certain paths.

[01:04:20] And I've had companies. That I'm proud to say, went from a million dollars a year to $2 billion a year based off of those small seeds of information. And they took it and ran with it. Didn't have anything to do with me. It was, they were hungry, they were ambitious, and they were willing to do what it took to make it happen.

[01:04:36] They wanted to sit in and glean and learn. Now $2 billion is cool, uh, but you know, to a company that's 30, $40 billion, it's crumbs, you know? And I think a lot of that has to happen more where you have a. Not necessarily a threshold or some earmarked money that goes there, but just the opportunity to, uh, not only engage with them by spending money.

[01:04:58] With diverse companies, vendors, [01:05:00] women owned, the MBWs, those type of things, but also having opportunities for them to see how it works behind the curtain and that education piece. So some things are financial for sure, but some things are teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime type situation, right?

[01:05:14] Right. Her excellent point. And then let's hear her final p the last area. What I actually think is the least and I don't mean this and that it's not important, but I don't think it fixes the ills of our society in the way that it should is philanthropy. The third key lately, I think that's the tail wagging the dog.

[01:05:36] I think there are a bunch of companies that are making statements about philanthropy. Feeling that it does give them some cover and fix some of the L's. However, you cannot fix your own house from without you need to fix it from within. So while I encourage and want to see that, that philanthropy in the black community and in Brown communities, I do hope that people understand that doesn't give them a pass [01:06:00] for the, the issues that exist inside of their organization and where they have the immediate opportunity, opportunity to affect change.

[01:06:09] I think this P is the one, and as she said, it's important, but it's, it's the least. This is the one that the majority of companies do. They throw money at something, right?

## [01:06:19] The Value of Executive Leadership Development Programs

[01:06:19] And they're like, we, uh, we, you know, put money here. And so it shows that we're about diversity and, and, and, and, and that's great. That's awesome.

[01:06:29] But that ain't do, that's not changing the landscape. Okay. And so to her point, yeah, you can still do that, but that's not going to get you to where you want to go. All right. That's not going to unlock, you know, the talent and opportunities, uh, for a bunch of other people. That's going to help your organization take it to the next level.

[01:06:48] I agree. And what you specialize is, is the advertising space that the tail market. Right. So we think about show and tell, we've got a lot of people to tell a lot of things and we don't have a lot of show going on. We don't have a [01:07:00] lot of, you know, and this is the results of what I told you last year, or this is the trajectory that we anticipate, and these are the goals that we set for ourselves and how we reach those goals, not only because you're happy you reach those goals, but other people gleam off of that path and duplicate that success.

[01:07:16] We just, we just aren't doing a great job. As a society of making sure that that's cascaded accordingly to the right people or holding people accountable It's an accountability dynamic at this point And so as you said, uh, you have a certain, uh measure of the budget that's written off for uh, pr, right? I mean, that's what that's ultimately what it becomes, you know public relations, you know You have a certain pr you put people in pr.

[01:07:41] Uh, uh, you know You got the the dude on blackish was the vice president of urban You know, whatever, you know, he was offended because yeah, you know what I mean?

## [01:07:50] Closing Thoughts on Diversity in Corporate America

[01:07:50] So, so you know, those are the things that you got to be mindful of and cognizant. You hear it and you think, okay, they said, they said something, they said black and they said, do something.[01:08:00]

[01:08:00] I'm good. But no, it's back to Starbucks again. It's back to those companies where you actually see it in action. And then you see it in action again. It's not a, Hey, Rosalind was the CEO. So. We can't be, we can't be charged anymore. We got a lifetime past, you know, America's not racist anymore because Barack Obama was president.

[01:08:17] Right, right, right. Done. You know, like that's not how this works. Yeah. And I think as we, as we close out here, you know, a couple of things I want to leave, and I'd love to hear your thoughts as well, because at the end of the day, we know there's a ton of people, white, that wanted, want to expand. They want to diversify their organizations.

[01:08:39] Um, they're, you know, I'm not gonna make any excuses for them. The thing is, is this, is that anything if you, you know, I learned this a long time ago. All right. If you want to do it, nothing will stop you. If you don't Any excuse will do. Okay, so there's a way [01:09:00] to do it. And look, you know, Tony tidbit and and Chris, you know, we're just providing some, some, some banter here, some awareness to the situation, right?

[01:09:08] And we're going to give you some thoughts. And you heard from from from Melody. Hobson in terms of her three Ps. And then obviously, obviously you heard from Rosalyn who, you know, I made it to being a fortune 500 CEO as a black woman and still, you know, really just said, Hey, this is unacceptable. Cause there's a ton of people that can do this.

[01:09:27] So there's, there's, and then obviously we went through the, the, the research with cocoa, right. That, Hey, They're, you know, you have black professionals that are very ambitious. They feel that there's a barrier that's going to affect them from moving up. They, they work twice as hard as their white counterparts, right?

[01:09:48] So, so, and then we didn't go into all the other things that they deal with. So, you know, from a solution standpoint, and I'd love to hear yours, I'm going to throw mine out here. Number one, it starts at [01:10:00] the top. Okay. Either you got to feed and cement. All right, which means you're 100 percent committed to diversifying your organization.

[01:10:11] Now, I know companies that are very diverse at a lower level standpoint, right? They're not diverse from a senior management standpoint, and it's the same thing. It's not hard to do. It's a commitment. Okay. So to do that. Expand your network, right? Obviously, there's people that, you know, and Chris, you and I talked about this before.

[01:10:34] There's people that's within your organization that is talented that you can nurture, right? But they need advocacy. They need allies. They need people that stands behind them. You know, I was chatting with a lady not too long ago. And I think you know her and, uh, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll change the names to protect the innocent.

[01:10:55] But she told me she's black and she's a VP. And she told me about how her boss, who [01:11:00] was white, he had her back. He was her advocate. And he pushed and said, no, you're going to do, he first challenged her. Right. And more importantly, He made a way for her to move up because he believed in her, right? And she didn't let him down.

[01:11:15] She was talented. So the only way that she was able to move up into this organization, huge organization, is that she had an advocate that was behind her, not just a good word, but that was 100 percent that also mentored her the whole nine yards, right? So that's what needs to happen because the talent is there.

[01:11:35] So you got to be committed. You have to have advocacy, you know, advocate and allies and you have to expand your networks. If you're going to a club and there's, if you, and I'm just, I'm just going to be frank here. You go into a club and there's all white people there. You're in the wrong club. Okay. That's not going to help you expand your network.

[01:11:56] Just like for my life. Being on this planet [01:12:00] and working, not just in corporate America, but pretty much anywhere I've worked at, I've always been in the minority. I was always uncomfortable wherever I went. It was part of the norm. Okay. But I had to become comfortable. I became comfortable because I was the only one.

[01:12:16] Well, guess what? My white friends, brothers and sisters, it's the same thing, right? The only way that you're going to build your networks in terms of having a diverse, talent set of individuals, you got to go places where those people are. You have to be willing to be uncomfortable for that timeframe and learn from new individuals, right?

[01:12:38] By doing that, the value you're going to get the first value you're going to educate yourself, right? Because now you're going to see like, wow, this is not as bad as I thought. Oh, I didn't know. I thought this and I thought that I learned a bunch of things, right? Then number two, you're going to create a network.

[01:12:54] For your organization to bring on unique talent that you wouldn't have the [01:13:00] ability to do. Right? So those are my things in terms of what I think companies can do. The good companies are doing that. Okay. And you probably heard that from Leslie Driss because she gave plenty examples with her company, right?

[01:13:13] This is a thing. If there's a commitment. You 100 percent behind it. And then my final thing is you train your managers to hire diverse people, right? You have to train them. You can't just say, we're out looking for people and there's no training behind it. Train them how to conduct an interview with a diverse audience.

[01:13:35] Group of individuals. It's different, right? It's totally different, but that's, you have to have that commitment to being able to do that. Chris, I think that it starts with the human resource departments at major companies, as smaller companies, it's a little easier to be nimble, but in major companies, you have to have your HR department going to, uh, the National Association for Black Engineers conference and network [01:14:00] there.

[01:14:00] You have to have that because then they identify the talent. But the fact is this, in this crucible of success. We want what is best, especially from an HR perspective, human resource perspective, you want to have the best candidate that you present because that's your job, period, point blank. And so you should be going out like a college scout, scouting and scouring the landscape for who is best.

[01:14:21] And that's not always going to be Ivy League. That's not always going to be whatever the case may be. You got to meet them where they are. So you got to go to HBCUs to their career days and things like that. You have to be willing to put the work in upfront. Now, at that point, like me and my experience, I got into a leadership development program, but it was 200, two applicants six of us made it.

[01:14:40] I was more than willing to grind out and and put mine against those other 202 and happen to win out. I don't think we're afraid I don't think we're, you know, underestimated from an ambition perspective, but we need those platforms to say, Hey, you have a responsibility to create a fast track program or a development [01:15:00] program and you identify these folks and then you let them go in and do what to do and you let them kind of figure it out at that point.

[01:15:07] A lot of companies don't have that. Uh, that platform, that mechanism in place, they just let the, uh, suggested individual get the opportunity and see what happens. And as you stated more often than not, people fizzle out. They hit the Peter principle, right? You get promoted to your level of incompetence, but then it's like, okay, well, let's try it again because I can't rationalize somebody like me not being able to do what I did.

[01:15:29] 10 years ago, instead of saying, Hey, we have a, a opportunity here to put multiple people into a system and see what happens as far as what's best for the company. But that growth within internal, she made a comment about it being starting within. That's how you start within. You make sure that you have a mechanism in place that's tried and true, repeatable, and then you could tweak it to know what success looks like.

[01:15:54] But at that point, you know, Hey, This person is here because, hey, he's been that [01:16:00] guy or she's been that girl from when she first got into the programs or when she first got identified as a high potential individual, we absolutely have a lot of high potential black folks, white folks, brown folks, whatever the case may be.

[01:16:13] But that identifier makes it different because now you know they're looking. We sometimes don't even realize they're looking. We doing all kind of stuff. Man, I'm, I'm getting all this. I'm doing all that. All of my reviews is highest. But what does it mean? What is it? Nothing equals anything in a subjective company.

[01:16:30] You can do whatever. You can take the same job. I could want to be you when I grow up, Tony. And say, what did he do here? What did he do there? And I got all your titles. And I end up two lower, two levels lower than you when it's all said and done and say, what happened? I ain't go, I ain't go, I ain't go to no party with short song.

[01:16:48] But are you funny? You, you're just too funny. Here's the thing though. You make a good point on the executive leadership development program because I got nominated to go to one, um, which number one, I didn't even know they had one. Right. [01:17:00] And I, you know, I had to, you, you, you just don't go, you gotta be, you know, Now you got to be nominated and the school has to choose you.

[01:17:06] Right. And I was able to make it and I was able to go, uh, to the university of Virginia, the Darden school of business. And it was awesome. Right. And, and that's something I'll never forget. And the people that I met there that was so talented, right. That, that I learned a million things from them. They learned things from me.

[01:17:24] But when you have a company that sponsors you like that, That makes you want to stay at that organization that makes you want to grow in that organization and that's an investment that the organization does to their employees that ends up paying back later on. And the next thing you know, this person now is CRO or CEO.

[01:17:44] Now they're, they're running the company, right? And the employees of the organization need to see that because they can say, wow. We're developing our own and this is a place I want to stay. I'm not looking to go anywhere else because I have a really good chance here to move up because the company is [01:18:00] invested in his people.

[01:18:01] So totally agree with you. And listen, you know, we're going to end out here. This has been. My buddy for the first Tony tidbit and friends podcast that we did today. This was awesome. I loved your energy. I loved your intellect. I didn't understand a couple of the words, but I got it. So any final thoughts?

[01:18:21] Uh, I think that. If we, if we just understand that, um, if we can summarize and try to put ourselves in other people's shoes and try to look at it from all angles, you know, not just our angle, not the oppressive angle, but sometimes the angle of the oppressor, uh, you can get so much further. And how you move and how you navigate.

[01:18:43] And I think one of the things that was very powerful that you brought up, Tony, as it related to the black taxes, uh, you don't have to just accept it because that's the way it's been, you know, that's the, the psychology of familiarity, right? It's always been this way. It ain't going to, you know, you know, that's just the way it is.

[01:18:59] But sometimes you [01:19:00] have to be willing to go out there and be uncomfortable, but I will challenge any person that's in a position of influence that maybe not, that's not maybe black. Be okay with challenging yourself to be uncomfortable and just see, just see what else out there. It may be a situation where based on where you are.

[01:19:17] You go out there and you don't see anything. But I find that hard to believe because if you close your eyes and think about all of the people that are in high level positions that are black, they're all extremely exceptional. I can't say the same for other folks. I can't. And that's just the nature of things and that should be more sad.

[01:19:35] Than anything else. When you say this dude is the vice president of Find man, he is the dumbest person I've ever met. You've never had that happen with the black person? High up. It's always been. He's sharp. He might have a come off as abrasive or, I've been considered, it's funny, when I was in, in, in lower levels, my um, ambition.

[01:19:56] And my attitude was considered contentious and [01:20:00] now that I'm at a higher, I'm the same person, but now it's called high energy. I love your high energy. You know, my confidence was taken, you know, a certain way, but once I broke past a certain title, now it's high energy. Same dude, same dude. But you know, but we gotta be able to navigate those waters.

[01:20:15] And I think together, these types of conversations help because you don't feel like you're on an island. You don't feel like it's just at my company. It's just in my region. It's just. For me as a man or a woman or whatever the case may be, and this is what perspective is all about. So I appreciate it.

[01:20:28] Well, thank you, my friend, for bringing your perspective. And we're looking to have more of your perspective as we move forward. And thank you for tuning in to another episode of a Black Executive Perspective Podcast. So, you know, we talked about a lot of different things. Hopefully, there's some things that you took out of it.

[01:20:47] So, uh, but if not Please reach out to us and let us know, share us your thoughts. And if you would like to come on and be part of Tony tidbits and friends on the black executive perspective, so we can hear your perspective, [01:21:00] you're more than welcome, reach out to our website, definitely send us a message and we'll follow back up with you.

[01:21:05] However, it's now time for Tony's tidbit. Tony's tidbit. Exactly. Right. So based on what we talked about today, Today's tidbit is by Denise Morrison, who's retired CEO and president of Campbell's Soup Company. And Denise says the path to diversity begins with supporting, mentoring, and sponsoring diverse women and men.

[01:21:29] To become leaders and entrepreneurs, and that's what we kind of spoke with a little bit at the end though, Chris, is that sponsorship, right? That mentoring and developing them within your organization to eventually be able to run your organization. Thank you again for, uh, attending a black executive perspective podcast.

[01:21:51] As I stated before, please subscribe, give us a review, tell us your thoughts. You can follow a black executive perspective podcast wherever [01:22:00] you get your podcasts and also follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Tik TOK, LinkedIn at Tony tidbit, VEP for my executive producer, double a Adrian Alvarado. For our new member of Tidbit and Friends, Chris Reed, I'm Tony Tidbit.

[01:22:20] We talked about it and we're out. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Tony Tidbit, a black executive perspective, and for joining in today's conversation with every story we share. Every conversation we foster and every barrier we address, we can ignite the sparks that bring about lasting change.

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