Welcome to, but for Real, a variety show podcast co-hosted by two therapists

who also happened to be loud mouth.

I'm Valerie, your resident elder, millennial

child free cat lady, and I'm Emerson, your resident, chronically online Gen Z brat.

And on the show we'll serve up a new episode every other week that will take

you on a wild ride through the cultural zeitgeist, mental health and beyond.

You'll

definitely laugh and TBH sometimes maybe cry a little because this

is a silly and serious show.

Buckle up my friends, and let's get into today's episode.

Welcome back, everyone.

We're here.

Well, I don't know where, what accent this is.

We're running rolling with it.

We are so excited this week to welcome one of our own.

Uh, I, as I was sort of mentally preparing for this last night, I.

Had this just phrase come to mind and I was like, I don't, you might have

strong feelings about this phrase, but I'm gonna say hello to Sammy D

Hello.

Hello.

Uh, AKA Sam d Martino.

I actually do not know if you hate to be called Sammy,

and now we're debriefing it right now.

It's one of those

that's like, it's a specific context that I'm used to Sammy d in.

And so hearing it come out of your, your mouth, it was like, Sammy d, where am I?

What's happening?

And welcome.

That's what we do to people here on the pod, but for real.

Okay, so Sam DiMartino, um, is one of our amazing therapists here at the

Gaia Center, and, uh, we're gonna talk through all kinds of topics related to

men's mental health, toxic masculinity.

What's the antithesis of that?

Systemic oppression, identity, et cetera.

Sam works with all of these things, um, and more in his therapy work.

Uh, and also leads our men's group, which is called, and you came up with this

beautiful name tearing down the walls.

Yes.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes.

Um, also, I just said, while it's on my mind, have to

tell, tell the listeners that.

Sam, um, has some beautiful gold necklaces.

One oh, they're so fb and was wearing one to one of our team meetings and

we were like, the gold chain was just giving that morning and we were like,

please tell us that you wear that to every men's group because like

they just need that vibe in there.

Yes, very much so.

Big fan.

Okay, boys

wear necklaces.

It's fun.

Yes.

You know, I know.

It's beautiful.

And when you, when Sam is not therapizing, you can find him gaming, creating, being a

literal comedian and sharing his love with his wife Ruby and their two adorable cats.

While Sophie is adorable in theory, but does not like to be perceived a secret.

But Klaus, I can attest, is indeed adorable.

He's a sweet boy.

Thank you very much for having me.

Thank you very much for, for allowing me to talk about some of my favorite things.

Hell yeah.

I'm very excited to do so.

Like what a fun afternoon.

I'm like sitting here with people I really enjoy.

I am like, okay.

Now it's time for our first segment, tea and Crumpets, where we tell you what

we can't stop talking about this week.

So Val, go ahead and kick us off.

What can you not stop talking about?

Okay, so I have for many years been fans of these like ambiance YouTube channels.

Yes.

Where it's like you're in the library, you're at the coffee shop.

It's slow jazz and rain.

I'm sitting there on the couch with a book, right?

Um, of course, in this AI world that we live in now they are proliferating.

Wow.

And say what you will about ai.

I know it's complex, but there is this channel called Forest Mind and very

spelled, very clever because there's two R's, so it's like four rest.

Um, mind am ambiance.

I know, right?

And they, it is.

I am like, just, I don't know.

I'm so happy talking about it because they are woodland creatures.

And for instance, the other day we were watching chipmunk wizarding

school making berry potion.

So that's all happening while so much is happening with my book.

Right.

Well, of course there's, there's rabbits enjoying a strawberry.

Oat milk matcha.

Amazing.

Like, oh my god, it's, it's so lovely.

So this is just.

Where I want to live is in this.

That's my kind of brain rot.

Yes.

This is the future the liberals want.

It's, and I'll say this, creator's credit, this creator of this channel was a

graphic designer and of course lost their graphic design work in this modern world.

So like just because they are using AI and they made a really valid point that

like high quality computer graphics have to go through so much rendering

that it's actually no more waste energy wasteful to do it through ai.

Yeah.

If you were gonna make it anyway through traditional computer graphics.

So.

Okay.

Just an interesting little point of nuance there.

Anyway,

tea, I'll shut up.

What's your tea?

Um, mine is a show that is not new but new to me.

So it was kind of, it was way too late.

It was probably like June, uh, I'm scared 28th.

And I was like, wait, I wanna like watch something for Pride Month.

Honey, you have like two days left.

So naturally I started Heart Stopper.

Oh my God.

Like sometimes I'm just watching stuff and it's just like devastating.

Yes.

'cause I love a docuseries, but I'm just like, sometimes I'm just

terrified of life and I'm like, I needed something cute and I'm Gen Z.

Obviously we know.

And so I'm always combating like my internal like what's cringe, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so like for romantic type stuff, I have a bit of like

cringe to it, but it's so cute.

It's.

A British show.

So even that just like tickles a little like mm-hmm.

The British PO.

May, you know, and so I'm like, okay, it feels like home a little bit.

Um, but super cute.

Joe Lock and Kick Connor, they are the stars.

And they're just like in high school, like navigating, like coming out

and like this gay relationship and there's like so much representation

in the show for queer people.

Disabilities, like just like eating disorders, everything.

It's just like, and from a like mental health professional standpoint, I

think they do a pretty good job of like how they navigate the topic.

So it was cute.

Sam, what is your tea?

My tea is Donkey Kong Bonanza for Nintendo Switch too, which I, I've

been playing pretty obsessively since it came out like two-ish weeks ago.

Hmm.

So we got a Nintendo Switch two, which was fairly difficult.

I don't know if you guys are following this.

Mm-hmm.

But Nintendo, the Nintendo Switch two, I think is like the fastest

selling console ever at Point.

Oh my God.

Point

my Wow.

So it's very hard to get a hold of, we had to like drive 45 minutes

to a random GameStop to get it.

Okay.

Um, which was kind of like an exciting, like dangerous mission

feel part of the adventure months.

Yeah.

Part of the adventure.

Um, but then it didn't come, it came out with a Mario Kart game, which was cool.

Um, everyone loves Mario Kart, so it was kind of a no brainer,

but it's never, Mario Karts never been like super, like my jam.

It's always Wonder Mario Kurt is one.

Sure, but

hard to like

certified classic.

Certified classic.

Hard to like deep dive into.

Sure.

Um, but Don Conga Bonanza came out and it is a, like, open every level

is this giant space you play as Donkey Kong and there hasn't been

like a game where you play as Donkey Kong in earnest in like a long time.

You can just break everything.

Y'all

love it.

That fun.

You can

just punch forward up, down and just like smash rocks the whole, you can

smash the whole level if you want and just, just, it's just gone.

Smash, smash, smash.

And there's like gold and collectibles every like few meters.

So it's just like no matter what you're feeling rewarded for bashing

things.

It's such a fun, like mind off, I'm looking for bananas.

I'm finding all of the bananas.

I'm just like listening to a podcast and like punching walls and ground and it's

just very, very therapeutic and sounds

enjoyable.

Yeah.

Okay.

You're starting to sell me on this game, Shane.

Yeah.

What's really funny too is that everyone in the world, you'd think,

like any character you meet is gonna be like, oh no, donkey Kong is here

and he's gonna destroy our home.

But no matter what, they've like found a way to make people

be like, yeah, break stone.

We love that here.

Yeah.

Um, please destroy our home.

Yeah.

If you try to like punch an npc, it just like changes the animation

to a high five and you just like.

High five and spin around together.

It's very, very fun.

I like it.

It's giving animal from the Muppets.

Sure, yeah.

Yeah.

A little, you know, just chaos.

Animalistic fer.

Donky con

animal are definitely like

feral.

Yeah.

Similar vibes.

Okay.

Soul sisters.

So feral

soul sisters.

Relatable.

Wow.

Wow.

That's us.

Actually.

It's, it's, and now

it's your new podcast, retitling.

If you ever wanna raise sisters, there you go.

Is

accurate.

Now it's time for Step Into My office where you get advice from your

favorite professionally qualified, personally peculiar therapist.

So this listener writes in saying Hi besties.

My younger brother is 16 and has basically lived in his room gaming since

he started playing video games at 13.

He's not out partying or engaging in risky teenage behavior, and

honestly, he's a sweet kid.

But I can't help but worry.

He seems absent during family meals and time spent together, and the

only time I see him happy is when he is yelling to his headset with his

friends that he never invites over.

I keep hearing stuff about gaming addiction and how it can impact

someone's mental health, and I just don't know what the line of concern

is, or if I'm being an overbearing older sibling that is forgetting

how weird teenagehood was for me.

Do I broach my concerns with him, and if so, how do I do so without completely

shutting him down or making him angry?

Sincerely, a slightly annoying, but worried older sister.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Thoughts very well, well intentioned concern.

Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Uh, my first thought is just like, what's he playing?

Sure.

What do you know?

What do you know, sis?

I think like,

yeah,

that is such a, a large question because honestly, there's only like

a few things in this that sound like pings for like genuine concern.

Mm-hmm.

Of like, he's yelling into his headset.

Like, define yelling.

What do

you think?

Is it emphatic?

You know, is it, is it, is

it fun yelling?

Is it.

I'm thinking about throwing the controller.

Yelling.

Yeah, sure.

Um, but like there is a world where this is just fine.

Yeah, yeah.

Where this is totally okay and not concerning.

I think what you're kind of identifying is that you are worried that he's not

participating in like family activities or like relating to you talking to you.

And that is a real open question for me is like, well, is this, it sounds

like a social thing he's doing.

Does he feel more welcome with the people he's gaming with

than he does necessarily with.

You or your parents and, you know, no judgment.

I think teenagers tend to not feel like super excited to share with

anybody, especially their family, um, as a general sort of rule.

But yeah, I guess that would be a big question is like,

what is he getting out of it?

Mm-hmm.

You know, is that a, is it a functional use of his time?

And this is just like the only space where he can feel welcome or excited

or like enjoy himself or connect with like a hobby or interest of his.

Or is it more like, you know what I think you're maybe more worried

about, which is just this feels good.

So I do it all the time.

Mm-hmm.

And everything else I want to avoid, um, which maybe doesn't

feel so good about my life.

And so if I just keep doing this, I don't think about those things, which

becomes very difficult to like, tease out.

And you know, I think is not necessarily like your responsibility as a sister

to be like, let me insert myself and get you to open up as much as like

laying the groundwork for knowing that you are a safe person to do that.

Mm-hmm.

I think that starts with just showing an interest in like, what

are you playing and if you can play with your brother, go for it.

You don't even have to be good at it.

I think if he's open to that, um, but that's gonna give you a lot more

information than just sort of, you know, sitting on the sidelines or

trying to look up what Fortnite is.

Sure.

Dangers a Fortnite click.

I like, you're gonna find interesting stuff.

Mm-hmm.

There.

Yeah.

I don't, I like my honest, earnest reaction was like,

okay, sounds like a 16-year-old.

I'm like, I didn't wanna be around my parents.

Yeah.

And like developmentally mentally appropriate behavior.

And also Sure.

Like, you know, the parts of like gaming addiction, okay.

Inquiring.

Mm-hmm.

What, what are you even playing?

And, yeah.

And I didn't even think this is my own brand.

Like, okay.

I didn't even think about saying like.

Hey, what are you playing?

Can I play with you?

Mm. Yeah.

Like simply asking and seeing what that would be like.

I feel like this is an opportunity moment to say like, there's

not good data on this really.

Mm. But like from the sort of data we have, there's a lot of data that

suggests gaming is a like 52% male hobby and like 47% female hobby.

So I think like that's worth bringing up of just like, I think we do

have this prevailing narrative from like the nineties or something.

Mm-hmm.

That this is just like things little boys do, boys do, and like it's really not

Right.

Like I think if you as a sister have that as part of why you're not diving

into it, like, and this is, there's a big caveat of like, there are plenty of games

and communities where like if you're a woman and you throw a headset on, you get

shouted the most misogynistic bullshit.

Yeah.

And like.

Totally get you not wanting to dive into that, but like you could play plenty of

games and just not get in on voice chat.

Yeah.

Like just turn off that whole feature.

You can play games that are not like big multiplayer experiences mm-hmm.

But are just like you and one other person.

Um, I think that maybe there is a difference in like the type of genres

that like men versus women will get into and like the type of games

that they might gravitate towards.

But even that I don't think is like a significant difference, right?

If we're really looking at the data and

stuff.

Right.

And might depend on, you know, certain individual games,

maybe more heavily weighted.

Yeah.

I'm thinking of, this is not super relevant for this listener, but.

I just was blown away.

I, um, have a client who's like early, early forties and she's always been

a gamer and she's going through, you know, a difficult transition in life.

And, um, was telling me about this game where she's made all of these friends

who now have this like, you know, really close discord server together.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like, I mean, some of the deepest female friendships she's ever had, and

these women are like all over the globe and it's, I was just like in session,

like weeping inside like, oh my God.

Because that's another thing is like, sometimes I think, and not to say this

listener is saying this, but like, I think sometimes it's easy to be like,

well, those aren't like real friends.

Mm, sure.

And sure, sometimes it can be superficial or maybe we don't

know a lot about each other.

Sure.

But sometimes very deep relationships can form that start in those spaces.

Yeah.

Which I do think also we will probably dive more into this in a later segment,

but I think that the type of game they're playing, and this is why I

think it is really important, that like as therapists, we have like at

least the willingness to like explore what is going on in these games.

Mm-hmm.

Is because some games, yeah.

It is easier to be more superficial.

Like if you're playing Counterstrike global offensive,

you have to be like locked in.

Really.

Like on top of like there's enemies coming from two and three and like we need to be

a prepared for that and like strategizing around who's placing the bomb.

And so there's just not room to talk necessarily.

Mm-hmm.

About like, how are your kids doing?

Right.

But if you're playing like.

Minecraft, that's all time just to talk about whatever you want.

Like there's not really a, there might be like some urgent moments

every like 45 minutes, but you know, there is just a lot more room for

socializing there, especially like massively multiplayer online games.

Wow.

Or Elder Scrolls online or stuff.

I think like I have several friends or clients that are telling me about

their experiences with those games that are just so socially at their core.

Mm-hmm.

If you want to be able to succeed in those games, generally speaking,

you want to have a guild or a group

mm-hmm.

That can go on missions with you.

So you are incentivized to like build out relationships with

these people, or you don't get to succeed at the game sometimes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think that that's a really

good point.

Creates a really good opportunity for nurturing those relationships.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Listener, ask questions.

Mm-hmm.

Be curious.

Yeah.

Inquire within.

Absolutely.

You might have to step outside your comfort zone a little bit, sounds like,

but like, I think if you're, if you're really willing and have the this time

and energy you can even supplement with like, Hey, my brother was really mad that

I didn't know where to drop in Fortnite.

So you can look up a YouTube video.

Where's the best place to drop at Fortnite right now?

Like, you could look up those sort of things.

Nice.

And then sort of prep yourself.

Um, a lot of games too are also like, have a difficulty scaling that

is really thoughtfully designed to where if you are brand new, even

if it is a game like Fortnite, you can kind of be ushered in mm-hmm.

More gently by playing against computer players before.

Okay.

Real players and then sort of have a chance to learn, even

though I know it is intimidating.

Yeah.

I, there's plenty of multiplayer games that I just don't play because I don't

have the time or energy to be like.

Let me learn how to play Counterstrike.

Yeah, Uhhuh.

' cause I know that'll be months,

right?

And it'll be months of not having fun.

Mm-hmm.

And now it's time for the DSM.

In our DSM, all varieties of dysfunction, spiraling, and meltdowns are welcome.

In this segment, we break down complicated concepts and common misconceptions

about mental health, wellbeing, and tell you what we really think.

Let us

go into the side quest that is men's mental health and the impact of.

Video games in today's culture now also just precursor

these subjects are so robust.

Yes.

Like there's so much, and we're not gonna be able to cover

like every itty bitty thing.

So like a part two probably shall be in our future and thank God.

Um, and I just wanted to like set up like why this conversation now

and maybe even like why us, right?

Like why we are the ones having this conversation and I can't help but just

have such an influx of any kind of media and every kind of platform with someone

or something that is discussing in quotations, the male loneliness epidemic.

Um, and very typically the negative reaction that I see when that

is being posed, um, amongst.

Women afab individuals via my social media chains.

Kind of the quotation of like, I'm hearing about this constantly.

So I don't think it's a silent struggle at all.

Um, and some quickness that comes with that.

And of course, just not being able to ignore the rise in cultural

conservatism that we're seeing

the tate of it all,

honey, you know, who are the role models that we have for our young boys right now?

Um, you know, again, the kind of continued, like if I see one

more man with a podcast mic and a ring light, I'm gonna freak out.

And I'm like, sure.

And also I'd be doing that, you know, so.

Just wanted to frame this up with Sam here because just like the depth and

understanding that you have and what you pull out of me, like when we have

conversations, you were just like the perfect person for this shucks.

So yeah, like little cheeks.

So yeah, just why now?

Because we want to for one.

Yes.

And I think it's just an important piece to have.

So let's kinda dive into our segments.

We kind of split this off into like.

Two parts.

Mm-hmm.

Kind of, um, talking about men's mental health for the first, and then we'll

kind of go into gaming and A little bit.

Yeah.

And then we'll keep all of our other segments and fun.

Okay.

So kicking off with the whole men boys loneliness piece mm-hmm.

You have said before that you have some conflicting feelings about

that whole statement of men's uh, loneliness or male loneliness epidemic.

Tell us about some of those conflicting feelings.

What, what should we be focusing more or less on there?

Yeah.

I think my first gut reaction to hearing.

The phrase male loneliness epidemic for the first time, I don't know this year.

Sure.

Last year.

I feel like it's taken a boom.

Right.

Was sort of like epidemic.

Are we really acting like that's brand new?

I feel like that's pretty ongoing.

Also, I do think part of the kind of women you're seeing on

your feed, I'm also seeing them.

Mm-hmm.

And, and relate and empathize a lot with this like frustration Yeah.

Of, of it.

Because I think NPR had a episode of, um, it's been a minute where

they talked about how the title of the episode was The Male Loneliness

Epidemic might Not Exist at all.

Mm. And it cited that the sort of study that sites that men are 16% more

likely to be lonely, not have close friends, also found that women were 15%.

So it's like really close.

Wow.

I think there is a component of frustration there that I have that's

like, well, it's not just men.

I think where it is more real is that I think generally speaking,

like cis pet men are gonna be less likely to have tools to do something

about loneliness, about loneliness and feeling depressed and alone.

Um, so I do think there is a variance there.

Um, I think that I also get an icky feeling because I do empathize with

the people that are frustrated with having men maybe come to them to

do their emotional work for them.

Or maybe you've had a experience of being victimized or traumatized by problematic

men and their problematic behavior, and I think it's not yours or anyone else's

responsibility to fix that for those men.

I think that's important to say.

I think.

That more what comes up for me in the work that I do with male clients is like, how

do we solve this for ourselves and how do we find spaces where we can be vulnerable?

And also just, I think I get an icky feeling from it because I think there

is probably bad actors who use this term as a justification for doing bad

things, and I think basically it's just poisoned the well of this phrase.

Yeah.

In a similar way on honestly maybe a little bit different, but to how like

self-care is such a word that's overused to where it's like lost all meeting.

Oh yeah.

It, you know, we as therapists have to talk to people about Selfcare all the

time, but at the same time, I'm hearing like every HR rep that I've heard be

like, you need to self care because we don't want to pay for your benefits.

How much that's.

Flag grew into the term as well, so Sure.

I think it's a well-intentioned phrase, an idea that's maybe been

taken in a direction that I don't love.

Mm-hmm.

Paula, to so much of how we misconstrue or like, I don't know how things take

on new meaning and lose our nuance.

Yes.

You know, and all of the above.

Okay.

I wanted to talk a little bit about, I don't know, emotional language.

Do you think we have enough emotional language for men in our culture

instead of, or are we just stuck with like the defacto, like, I'm fine, I'm

pissed, I'm good, you know, I'm fine.

You know, just the kind of like with the not much depth

there, or what do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I think the answer is yes.

I think we do have enough language.

I think it's more that we don't necessarily have normalization around

men using the language we have.

Um, I think the, I'm fine or I'm pissed or I'm, it's okay.

Is like, it, it, it suggests finality and immediate dismissal.

Dismissal.

Mm.

Masquerading as like closure.

Like, it's sort of a way of saying like, don't ask me more questions about this.

Um, 'cause I don't want to interrogate it.

Um, so I think it's more like how do we just get men to use the language we have

and like take up the space that we would.

I think I would imagine that if, if in your minds and even my own like

conversations I have with women in my life and conversations you're probably

having with women in your life, you probably have a pretty clear idea of

what it looks like to be like, oh, I'm sad, or like, lemme tell you about

this crazy thing that happened at work.

Yeah.

Like just reaching out and being open about that.

What I think is more apt is just like, how do men create that for themselves?

With their, with everybody?

Yeah.

With their male relationships, their female relationships.

Like how do we just make that more normal and Okay.

Right.

Yeah, and I'm thinking about like emotional safety, right?

How do we create that, um, in our relationships and, and also this

where consent falls into that.

Like I'm thinking about one of my, I think I maybe even have alluded to

this on the pod before, but one of my husband's like very best friends

and just how little they often.

Did you get no tea, did you?

And then he's like, well, I only wanna, I don't wanna push super

hard because he is really guarded.

And so then it's like, do we have consent to sort of like push

more if we're not getting more?

Or is that like, well the emotional safety's not there to push.

Like, just curious what thoughts you have about that.

Yeah, I think that it's often a step that is underused for talking about how you can

be more vulnerable with people is just.

Doing that consent seeking.

I think it's kind of a duh for maybe us thinking like, yeah, you have to have

consent to talk with people about things.

Sure.

Especially difficult, challenging things.

Mm-hmm.

And then I think that's like super special or different aside from

just being like, Hey, can I tell you about this crazy thing that happened?

Or, Hey, I'm not feeling, I'm feeling pretty down today.

Like, do you mind if I talk to you about it?

Mm. Um, I think a lot of, a lot of people, I think especially men, can kind

of forget that's a thing you can do.

Yeah.

Or that feels like an admissible of weakness to

where we're not ready to do it.

Um, but I think in that creating safety to share is that like if

you have obtained that consent, then that's a good like green flag

that you can go ahead and share.

I think a lot of men might have an experience of speaking with somebody just

like, Hey, I opened up to my girlfriend or my dad, or whatever, and they just

like did, blew me off or whatever.

And then we have to, then we have to, where safety comes into it even

more is like we have to have clarity around my question's gonna be like,

did you ask consent to do that?

And then if the answer is no, well then it's like, well

what happens if you try again?

But like lay the, set the stage a little bit, see what happens.

Like, does that maybe cue the person listening to you in to be more

receptive and listening actively?

And if the answer is yes, I did that and I still was dismissed, then we have to

say, is that person safe to open up to?

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I think a lot of people would like to be safe and, you

know, are well-intentioned.

I'm thinking of the same, you know, women afad, people making those male loneliness

epidemic posts that I empathize with of like, I get that, that's frustrating,

but like maybe that means that's not the safest person to go to if they're like.

Primed to dismiss you.

Um, and that's not to say they're like a bad person or that they don't have

very justified or good reasons to be like protecting themselves in that way,

but it's maybe just how do we maybe start in an easier, more welcoming

space and then work up to those more difficult people to open up to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think piggybacking off of the, you know, like the safety and how you're

opening up, you talked about wanting to.

And I'm so interested to hear your thoughts about this, of normative

male alexathymia, um, and the impact of men's ability, you know, in that

relating with others, but also like to yourself and what that means.

Yeah.

So normative male alexathymia, I'll say, is a term coined by Dr. Ronald

Levant, who is a psychologist, researcher, and professor.

He was the president of the a PA for a while.

Hmm.

Um, he's done most of his work, I believe, on men masculinity in those topics.

And he coined this term to describe how culturally men are sort of

normalized to not be in touch with or talk about their feelings.

Alexathymia as a, in a word of itself, just means having difficulty expressing

or understanding your emotions.

So I think it's just sort of a way to outline how that is culturally, I think.

And there's a lot of negative and positive.

Let's.

The real incentives for men to be stoic and difficult to read.

So I think where that makes it difficult to relate to people and

relate to yourself is our emotions are really important feedback for

how we live and move through life.

And so if you're just ignoring that or seeing that as an inconvenience to

be maneuvered past, then you're just gonna be missing like really critical

insight into what your situation is and why something's going on.

I think a lot of men have these questions that have obvious answers

from the outside looking in of like, why is X so difficult for me?

Why do I hate being around so and so?

Like, why am I so miserable at work?

Mm-hmm.

And like I think sometimes those answers are complex, but sometimes

it's just this is painful for you and you don't like this part of

it, and you would rather be living.

In this other way.

And yeah, I think that makes it really difficult to relate to

others if you just don't know what tools you're bringing to the table.

Mm-hmm.

I wonder what you can say about just some particular, um, overlapping

identities within masculinity, whether that's like queer men, trans

men, neurodivergent men, et cetera, men, you know, men of color, um, and

their experience of either loneliness or just mental health challenges.

Um, how is that the same or different from just like general

men's mental health challenges?

Yeah, I mean I think that there is a lot of complexity and nuance there.

I think as, as a started disclosure, I am a bisexual cisgendered man, so I can

speak a lot to kind of that experience.

I think for me a lot of, you know, early adulthood being able to

open up and be more vulnerable and comfortable with people around me, ma

making friends that are also queer.

'cause I think that those communities tend to have more

normalization around doing that.

Yeah.

Um, that's not to say that I haven't had really positive experiences with like

cis het men in my life, but I think.

That, broadly speaking, it's been easier to explore that there.

But at the same time, I think where that intersects with it is like I do feel the

bisexual erasure of it all and the kind of dual discrimination of like sometimes

people, I kind of like that, my flavor of bisexuality, I don't know if this is

something that every bisexual man agrees with, but I kind of like that in a given

interaction or like question you ask me, you might get like a queer man answer

and you might get a straight man answer.

Like it feels like a world, it feels like a coin flip.

And I really enjoy that.

But I think sometimes there is a flip side of that of like, oh, you expected me

to be really like manly in this moment.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm not.

And like I think I've grown to a point where I am like, okay, well tough.

Sure what you see is what you get.

But I think also there's.

I'm cognizant of like, that took a lot of work and I think a lot of

men in a similar situation might not feel comfortable with that.

And two, I think, I don't wanna speak for like trans masculine men or you

know, masculine leaning non-binary folk.

But I think sometimes there can feel like, um, I have heard from.

Some folks with those identities that like, oh, I like am finally part of this.

And I like am, you know, feeling really comfortable in this identity, but now I'm

being treated very differently and now I'm being treated in a, a masculine way.

And how much of a, you know, kind of weird like shift that is to being

suddenly like, people are afraid of me or people don't want to.

Hug me or like open up and like how weird that is.

Um, which I think when you wrap that up with like people now having that

expectation of you being stoic and stuff, I think also just leads to a weirdness.

But yeah, I think, I think the answer is that there's a lot of

complexity there in difference.

Cool.

Cool.

Okay.

What do you say to clients who are struggling with.

Being emotionally vulnerable because they've been hurt or rejected

or misunderstood when sharing.

Yeah.

I often prompt people with like, Hey, who is the low hanging

fruit in your life for this?

Like, who do you feel most likely to be met positively if you were to

reach out and be vulnerable to, is it a family member or some a friend that

maybe you're not super close to, but have always felt really safe with?

Um, oftentimes it's not this girl I'm talking to on Tinder, it's, it's more

like, who are the people that you do feel comfortable with, you know, and well

enough to know that like, even if they do have a less than stellar reaction, they're

not going to disown you or cast you out.

I think that's really important because then if you kind of get your

feet wet doing that, you can sort of build up those skills and learn

how to be more open with people.

And then, you know, that's not to say we never get to talk to those more difficult

people about this, but maybe we feel a little more confident doing it and know

that if we get some kind of rejection, it's not the end of the world, you know?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Alright.

Let's pivot over to our video games portion and play, if you shall.

Um, I wanna know what role have video games played in your own

mental health and self understanding?

So it's such, such a complicated question.

Mm-hmm.

It's been, I've been playing video games basically my whole

life, so it's just a very natural.

Tension of everything.

So I have had more social games that are a catalyst for maintaining and strengthening

friendships that otherwise would've just, would just not be a part of my life.

Today.

I've been moved and really felt held by specific games and their stories

during difficult times in my life.

It's been something I can go to to relax and recenter myself.

It's been something I can connect with people, talking to them in the way that

people do about TV or sports, but it has also felt like a compulsion sometimes.

Mm-hmm.

Or felt a little out of control.

It's also been something that's made me really angry in a way that I couldn't

necessarily understand in the moment.

Um, it's been something that maybe kept me from taking care of myself

or doing things that I would rather do sometimes, but largely I think

the good has outweighed the bad and has those bad moments have been fewer

and far between for me at least.

Wow.

I mean it's, yeah, it's all of it.

Right.

And it's sort of like, I think of a lot, a lot of what we engage with.

Like, whether it's, um, food or media or games, like it's all representative

of how we engage with life, right?

Mm-hmm.

So it's like the good, the bad, the ugly just amplified and getting to live almost

these like additional lives through the characters in the, in the game.

So.

Yeah.

That's very cool.

And you, you kind of alluded to earlier how like not all games are created equal.

Mm-hmm.

So we would love to hear the Sam d Martino categories as far as how you think of,

you know, what makes a game helpful versus unhelpful for someone's sort of wellbeing.

Yeah.

I think as far as digging into the types of games themselves, and I think

these are even questions that like therapists can ask clients is, is the

game multiplayer or a single player subsequent question, if it's multiplayer,

is it competitive or is it cooperative?

And then is it single player?

Is it story driven or is it more kind of mindless?

You know, I call these podcast games where like I could just play them

without necessarily listening to the audio and just can like play an audio

book or a podcast while I'm playing it.

I think those questions alone are gonna give you a pretty good insight into

like, what are we playing this for?

What are we getting out of it?

Um, and that's not to say one category is bad or good, but like it gives you a hint

towards like what kind of role it could be playing in that person's life to know.

Yeah, even just the inquiry.

I really like that the competitive or collaborative, cooperative, cooperative.

Okay.

Lots of C words.

Um, well, and I feel like one of the things like as I, as we were constructing

this, I was thinking about those big multiplayer games or how everyone talks

about it in the culture for shoot, like first person shooter games and just like

the times of opinions that come with it.

Kind of like for our step into my office where it's like,

is this cause for concern?

Yeah.

Um, and so just like in your personal professional opinion, what do you think

about in terms of those competitive multiplayer games as it affects mental

health, mood for yourself, clients', friends, what have you noticed?

Yeah.

So I know as a general rule, if I'm not having a good day, I don't wanna

play a competitive multiplayer game.

Okay.

But I think that could very well be different for other people.

I, and I think it's mostly just for me.

I will get really into it.

I think one thing that I think a lot of people can understand

about sort of this mental loop and reward system with competitive

multiplayer games is you're playing.

Maybe different depends on the game, but you might play five or six matches in an

hour, and if you win one, you feel great.

If you lose one, you're like, eh, that wasn't great, but I'll win the next one.

And then if you lose that one, you're like, well, dang it, I'm

gonna win the next one though.

And then you just start chasing it until you won.

Just trying to get that dopamine hit of winning.

I think a lot of times people can have a more casual relationship, but if you get

with it, but I think oftentimes you can get stuck in that competitive mindset of

like, I just need to win to feel good.

And then you wind up two hours later being pissed off and not knowing why.

Um, so I think that's something I've noticed and I think is

important to kind of highlight.

Now.

I think that does change the math a little bit if it's like, Hey, this

is a competitive multiplayer game, but the main reason I'm playing is

because my friends are playing and I'm just hanging out with them.

We don't really care if we win or lose, which is a lot of my experience with

these games too that do feel good.

Um, and if it is social, that takes some of the edge off.

I think with single player games you get a lot more longevity out of like,

this story is something I'm really connecting with, or this really just

lets me turn my brain off and relax.

Um, so I think there is like pretty significant math that's different

with those two types of games.

Cool.

So I know that gaming comes up in a lot of sessions with your clients and like,

gosh, they might in my sessions if I knew what the hell I was talking about.

But, uh, when you have that come up in sessions with clients, um, is

there, are there themes of like the kinds of beliefs or feelings that

usually come along with when someone's sharing about their gaming experience?

Yeah, I think most often it is, there's something else I should be doing.

It's one of those should statements.

Yeah, I think of, uh, I should be applying to jobs or redoing my resume

or learning how to do this thing or, you know, preparing for a move or whatever.

And I think we can kind of immediately see like how interrogable that is.

Of like, well, should you, is not really an accurate way of assessing.

Like, can you, mm-hmm.

Do you have the capacity to, is it actually what you want to be doing?

Do you think you should be doing that thing because

then you will be good enough?

Mm. Maybe you are good enough right now and deserve to take some time to yourself.

Um, so I think that's a big component.

But at the same time, I think there is another space that's like, where

are we getting to that avoidant place of like, are you saying you should

be doing something else because.

You're kind of recognizing this avoidance in yourself and being

like, I'm using this because I'm procrastinating doing this thing.

Mm-hmm.

In which case, you could be doing that with anything, right?

It doesn't have to be video games.

Um, and so how do we kind of recenter you into feeling more

motivated to do that thing?

Because ultimately, I think if you feel like if you're playing games in a way

that feels good and not distracting, you're generally not going to

necessarily think about those questions.

So how do we get more there?

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Do you see patterns in how certain types of games attract people with particular

emotional needs, struggles, challenges?

Yeah, I think, I'll be honest in them, that's like a big open question

that I, that maybe there is like, at least in my mind, and maybe

there is research or literature on that, uh, I'll use an example.

There is a game that I play a lot with my friends called Dead by Daylight.

It is a horror themed, asymmetrical, horror multiplayer game, and that just

means it's one person versus four.

Hmm.

And usually I'm on a team of four with my friends playing, and it usually

the person who's playing by themselves as the one has a high, they're

more powerful than the other four.

They're like a killer hunting survivors, so they can really make

you have a bad time if they want.

They can like get you out of the game right away if they want.

They can do things to make you frustrated on purpose.

And I do think there's.

Probably a space where that attracts people who are unhappy,

want to take it out on people, want everyone else, someone else's day.

I don't know how much that speaks to like them as people, but I think it

speaks to them as like their emotional needs and challenges in that moment.

I think that in a, as a kind of counter example, I think Stardew

Valley is a deeply popular game.

Mm-hmm.

Which is a farming game.

And I think that regularly draws people who want something just

comfortable, um, and want something to sort of feel positively about the

world and sort of lean into that.

And yeah.

I think that's another deeper conversation we can have with clients

are just people about where does this game take you emotionally.

Mm-hmm.

What emotions do you feel playing it?

Yeah.

Okay.

Sam, take us out.

But for real,

I think that the male loneliness epidemic is not a necessarily new thing, but

it is a thing we are talking about.

I think if we want to have productive conversations around that, we kind of

need to be treating people individually and talking to them individually

about how they are feeling as far as loneliness and the relationships and

social supports they have in their life.

I think video games can be just like any other form of entertainment.

They can be wonderful and really encouraging and supportive of

someone finding themselves and joy in their life, but it can also feel

like a distraction and tough thing.

And I think having a black and white, this thing good, this thing

bad with any of these topics is really where we get into trouble.

Mm, amen.

Okay.

And now our musical segment.

Now, that's what I call, okay.

Where Emerson and I each share a song with each other each week as representatives

of our respective generations.

We tell you a little bit about the song or artist and then we press pause.

We share the song with each other, and then we come back for our live reaction

and we're capturing it all on a Spotify playlist link in the show notes for you.

So, Sam, tell us about your tune and why you picked it.

Yes.

I'm very excited.

So I picked a song called Zzz Top by ASAP Rock.

ASAP Rock is one of my favorite artists.

He is a, uh, a rapper who I think one of his claims to fame.

Someone wrote a article, blog, whatever, about, um, different

rappers, vocabularies, so like how many unique words they use.

Um, and ASAP Rock was one of two rappers with over 7,000 unique

words across their whole library.

Wow.

The other rapper was a bus driver who I also love a lot, but his, his unique

words per track in 2019 was 7,879.

Hmm.

Um, and I think that kind of speaks to, in a maybe pretentious

sounding way, the like, how.

Visceral.

I think his imagery is like, I think if you can, like, if you like

listen to like the lyrical content.

I first heard this song when it came out in 2012.

I would've been like working my first job and listening to it while eating

sadly in the car and just being like, this is the coolest shit ever.

Hell yeah.

Oh my god.

Love.

But I think he's like one of the people who I love his whole library

of music because it's just the, the imagery like from his lyrics

are so compelling and interesting.

And the video's really cool too.

This is sweet.

That's exciting.

I

feel like I've heard of this artist, but like years ago and

so I'm excited to get a refresh.

All right.

We're gonna go listen and then we'll be, we'll be back with our reaction.

Damn.

That beat, that lady was

kicking ass.

It was a sick beat.

Okay.

Yeah.

I kept, kept being like.

So fun fact the woman in that video, Patty Lee, I think is a stage name.

I can't remember her actual name, but I think she is a like 12

time or some crazy gold medal.

Woohoo.

Pro practitioner.

Is that knife throwing?

Yeah.

I, I don't think it's knife throwing.

I think it's a type of martial art.

Okay.

Maybe it includes nice story but related, I don't actually know.

Related perhaps.

Yeah.

Wow.

She is the real deal.

She is not just a Yes.

A pretty face with a stunt woman.

Yes.

Period.

Very cool.

Damn.

Okay Queen.

And now for our last segment of the show.

Welcome to Fire Dumpster Phoenix.

It is rough out there y'all.

And we need all the hope we can get.

It's time to go dumpster diving for some positive news and rise from the

leftover Happy Meal ashes together.

I saw this.

You know, I'm always pulling mine from Good news network.

We're locked in so fucking bad, but I thought this was so cute.

Okay, so recent data from the Entertainment Software

Association, EEO saying claims that nearly half of Americans.

In their sixties and seventies, play some form of PC mobile or console game.

And 36% of folks in their eighties do as well.

Twitch streamer, tactical grandma, AKA, Michelle Sta, and Joyce

playing Call of Duty with her a hundred k plus subscribers.

Damn.

You know her?

No.

Oh.

I was like,

oh my God.

I do know Skyrim grandma, who I think,

okay.

I don't, I'm not sure if she's still doing her thing, but

she, it was like 10 years ago.

Sky Skyrim Grandma was 82.

20. 30

years from now, that won't even be novel 'cause there will be so many.

Yeah.

Skyrim Grandmas.

Yes.

All the seniors.

Yes.

So she has a shit ton of subscribers and like, just, they were the, she was

like the main focus of this article.

Um, and just like encourages senior aged folks not to feel ashamed of gaming.

Like she literally doesn't care.

She's like, why?

Why should you care?

You shouldn't.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and she's enjoys gaming and has raised money for charity with her streamers.

And then another senior interviewed for this article is a 72-year-old

retired naval veteran will who says positive feedback from players that

call him gramps tugs at his heart.

Nice.

So it was just like a sweet little, you know, like vignette of these two.

And I don't know, just thought he was fun and relevant for today's episode.

Right.

Love it.

We didn't even talk about Twitch.

I feel like Twitch is such a like, oh my God.

Example of like how this can be social and positive, right?

Yes, totally.

Because it's

just building those relationships just because you're watching

someone play something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So speaking of loneliness.

And isolation.

Seoul, South Korea, where I just visited.

So beautiful is working to combat isolation among adults of all ages

who live alone, which is about 39% of their 9.5 million residents and

a growing segment of the population.

So they have these centers, um, where they offer counseling and classes for things

like pet care and cooking and exercise.

They can build connections through like watching movies together,

volunteering, eating together.

And about 150,000 people have used these centers between 2022 and 24.

So I'm just like, okay.

Let's take some cues.

Yeah.

Let's start implementing some of this in more of our communities,

because we're gonna continue to need that and to help bridge that gap,

especially for folks who live alone.

Indeed.

That's awesome.

Sam, what about you?

What's your good news?

I just wanna shout out my cat, Klaus Cl.

He was, uh, he had a minor surgery a couple weeks ago where he had a,

a bump removed that turned out to be totally fine, but he's been, hallelujah.

He's been walking around with a cone for a couple of weeks.

Mm. Grumpy.

And he's been grumpy about it.

But now he is not in a cone and he's really throwing his weight around.

He is, uh, emerged from the dumpster fire, ready to start

shit cone free and shameless.

Hell yeah.

He's trying to fight me.

He's trying to fight.

Sophie, he's trying to fight everybody now that he is loose.

Love it.

Okay, before we go out with our final rapid fire q and a, did you have something

you wanted to embarrass us with deeply?

Absolutely.

I'm so glad you asked.

I'm scared.

I have prepared a segment, um, and which I will, I'm going to quiz

Valerie and Emerson on gaming slang.

I have seven pieces of gaming slang, and we're gonna do this two round style.

So first round you can get two points for getting it right.

Oh, it's a game

itself, shit.

Yeah.

Okay.

There's gonna be scores, okay.

There's gonna be scores sis come.

If you get it right the first time with no hint, you get two points.

If you don't, and if one of you buzzes in the answer and you get it

wrong, the other person can steal.

And then if neither of you get it on that round, I give you a hint.

And then you get one more chance, both of you.

Okay.

Okay.

And then the point is loss if no one gets it at that point.

Okay.

So

I'm instantly terrified instantly.

I forgot all those rules me, but I'm trusting Sam deeply trusting.

I believe in you.

I believe in us more than anything.

Um, so it's goes progressive difficulty, so, oh shit.

Okay.

Just if you think you know the answer, okay, go for it.

Jump in before the other person.

Okay.

So the first term, I think this one is not exclusive to gaming, so you might know it.

A FK Valerie, away from keyboard, away from keyboard

can go a OL instant messenger.

Did you listen?

I'm just a girl.

You know that one.

Did you know that one?

Yes.

My A OL Day paid off.

Yeah,

absolutely.

So people are still saying a FK, still saying it.

That's good to know.

On gaming Chance, I mean, I

was doing B-R-B-G-T-G.

You were just one step

away from a FK.

Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I'm pulling up my phone to score.

Oh yes.

Thanks.

Because I'm, would you like a pen?

No, I'm good.

Okay.

This one, next one is gg.

WP gg.

Space.

Wp, what do you think?

What I thought of was definitely not it.

I, why did my brain immediately say, good golly, white polly

and mine said, gotta go wet.

My pants probably, isn't it either?

It has to be, gotta go

so much whimsy.

In both of those answers incorrect.

I'll give you a hint.

What is it?

Okay.

Um, I'll give you a hint that this is usually said at the end of the game.

Okay?

Good game.

Well played.

Well done, Emerson.

Nice.

Holy

fuck.

One point for you.

Next one.

I think we're getting a little bit more tricky here.

Uh, KD ratio, K slash D ratio.

Kill death ratio.

Wow, you got it.

I was just thinking violence.

Sure me do.

The hint was, sorry guys.

My KD ratio was garbage that round.

Okay.

Okay.

Well

done.

Holy shit.

Next up, pull, agro,

pull or pull?

Pull or pull,

pull, pull.

Like PULL

pull agro.

Do you know it?

No.

Oh.

I was like, what you looking at me for?

I'm go

girl listeners.

I'm pulling Emerson's hair right now.

She's jointing my, I'm going, I'm precious hair.

I need it.

We need a hit.

Okay.

Okay.

I'm scared.

The hint is.

Okay.

Used in a sentence.

Okay.

Y'all flank west.

I'm gonna pull agro.

Okay.

I'm like, I'm imagining myself in a game and I'm like, y'all flank west, I'm gonna

pull agro.

You're like, I know less now.

I mean, I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna be on the offense.

I'm pulling aggressive, like, I don't know.

Sure.

I'll give it to you, Valerie.

I think that's pretty much right.

Okay.

Usually in a multiplayer game, like Wow.

Or something, there'll be like a pocket of enemies over here.

Okay.

And if one person pulls agro, that means they get the enemies to attack them.

Okay.

And

so you will like your,

like I'm gonna antagonize them.

Yeah.

So that you

guys can get by or do something else.

Do something else.

Objective related.

The more we know shit, the more we know.

Um,

let me end because that was a pity point though.

Yeah, that's okay.

So

POG and PS these are, and we're not

talking the little circles.

No,

but it is spelled the same POG,

and, and you would say like, that's fucking pog.

Yeah.

Really?

That's awesome.

Yeah.

What really?

What do you got, Adam?

Or no?

Yeah, I mean, that was gonna be the hint for the next part.

Oh shit.

Um, the hint was shit.

Yeah.

That was bonkers.

Wow.

Okay.

So you're, you're close.

I'm scared.

I feel like you're in the neighborhood.

Okay.

I, I think you deserve a point, but I think, do you want to

take a crack at what it means?

Like why, why it's pog?

I'm like, who said pog?

I, yeah.

It's an abbreviation.

Mm-hmm.

Acronym?

Its acronym, technically an acronym.

POG.

Pretty person of gaming.

She's honestly not that far.

That

was

pretty.

Oh, people of the game

play of the game

play shit.

Oh my God.

Oh my God.

Oh

my God.

So I think Overwatch is a prominent example of this, but

an Overwatch, after a Game ends, it'll show like Play of the Game.

And it shows basically like a critical thing someone did, whether

they like killed a bunch of people or like took an objective really

quickly or something like that.

And then everyone in the match gets to watch that like replay.

Okay, so you get to like show off.

Oh, it's Man of the

Match.

I like grew up watching rugby and so like they always play that little

like, and someone's man of the match.

So MOM.

Sure.

POG.

POG.

Okay.

Okay.

P Out and Learning Out is fierce.

Pug Out Your Pug out.

Oh God.

Um, this one's, this one's pretty tricky.

Oh dear.

Um, but it's the second to last one.

Okay.

Prock, PROC.

Yeah.

Right.

We, we, we, listeners, we do not have pens and scratch paper.

I'm just misspelling it out in the air.

This is,

I'll, I'll say this.

This isn't the hint, but this is a hint that it is an acronym, but no one, no

one knows what the acronym says for, I'm

going, well, I'm, I think the acronym is, person Resting on Couch.

Play a Resting on Couch.

I don't think that's it, but that's all I got.

Rock.

Brock,

do you wanna take a guess?

Emerson, before I give you the hint,

our fourth president.

Hey,

I'll give the hints.

Wait, wait guys.

I'm waiting for my crit to proc.

Wait guys.

I'm waiting for my crit to pro.

That was so natural.

Yeah,

I was gonna say, put me in voice acting immediately.

I don't know what it means to Hello

gamers.

I'm waiting for my crit to pro

to, I'm waiting for my food.

Progress to be

No, no.

I'm, I'm not, I'm not there.

Okay.

I don't Got it.

What do you say?

C crit.

What do you think Crit is a forfeit.

I'll give you a half point if you can guess what crit is.

A

crit.

Oh, critical.

Yeah.

Think.

Yeah.

Oh, am I just fucking awful at this?

Yes, I think so.

Uh, Prague, which technically, although I didn't even know this,

even though I've been saying it stands for programmed random occurrence.

Ooh.

And it's a word used to say like, now I, like, now the thing happens.

So if I'm waiting for my crit to Prague, I'm, I'm like hitting an enemy.

And I have like a. 6% chance of doing a critical hit.

So I'm waiting for that 6% to happen.

I'm waiting for it to proc.

Oh, if it's, it's a's intense a program.

Random.

We're so deep.

We're going deep right now.

So

deep.

I think this one you might have pretty good shot at.

And this one is a double blast.

One double points because it could be two things and if

you can name both, you got it.

LF, G,

let's fucking go.

Yeah,

let's fucking go.

Yeah.

Sars.

No, no.

You take it.

Emerson gets two points for that one, but what's the other?

There is another, there's

another

use of LFG.

Let's fucking go and

let Fucking game mate.

Let's

Ew.

Believable.

I was so, you know.

Not you were in it.

Yeah.

Natural.

Natural.

As natural as a gamer and a British person.

It'll, yes.

And we have two of those identities present and I'm neither.

Yes.

Um, let's fucking go.

What else would it,

it's not, this is not the hint, but it is a hint.

Okay.

It's very different.

It doesn't mean the same thing at all.

No idea.

Leverage.

Let me give you the hint used in a sentence.

This form of LFG is LFG for among us tonight.

Don't know.

Um,

Emerson looks like she might have a thought.

Well, 'cause I played among us briefly.

I'm a gamer.

Um,

yes you are.

Uh.

Like LFD for among us.

Give up.

I know.

I ain't done

the answer was looking for group.

Oh shit.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

Well done everyone.

So much shorthand.

Yeah, I love it.

One

round of applause for yourselves.

Yay.

So your scores, uh, Emerson had three points.

And Valerie, you got a whopping 5.50,

dang.

Dang.

Okay.

Okay, I'm done.

It's called luck.

Thanks for playing.

And a OL thanks for torturing us.

That was great.

Yes.

That was fierce Pleasure.

We are taking it out with just a few.

Let's do, let's do three.

Yeah, let's do three.

Rapid fire q and a. Pew, pew, pew, pew.

Okay.

Sam, you can only play one game for the rest of your life.

What are you choosing and why?

Oh boy.

Um, that one is tough.

I think I go two directions with this.

I can either play it like something that's really important that I can replay

over and over again to just enjoy it.

Sure.

Or I play something that has a lot of diversity in the experience.

And if I'm going like, favorite game that I would want to not be without,

I think Mother Three is my answer.

Ooh.

Which is a whole side topic.

It's a challenging game.

It's a, it's a tough game to get ahold of or play.

Okay.

But it's a single player game and it lasts like 12 hours and you're done.

So it maybe wouldn't be the most playable.

Okay.

Um, but if I were going like Replayability, I would probably pick like

Super Smash Brothers Ultimate

' cause, like I can

play that by myself and have a good time.

Sure.

And I can also play it with friends and have a good time.

And I've played that game probably like 900 hours at this point.

No.

Wow.

Okay,

so I've demonstrated that I could play it a lot

already.

Which one do I want to ask you?

Fuck

I wanna know controller dice or keyboard.

Oh boy.

You have to pick one.

It's SARS

Dice are so fun to see and hold and be, be with, be with.

But honestly, I, I think there's less that I could do with it.

What's your choice, Sam?

Oh my God.

Do or die?

It's rapid fire.

Keep keyboard.

My guts says keyboard.

Keyboard.

And go with your gut.

Okay.

What is a toxic masculinity trope you would love to delete

from the culture forever?

I think the obvious choice is just that you should be stoic and not have feelings.

Yeah.

Uh, that you just aren't supposed to.

Yep.

Yeah.

'cause you

are supposed to

Also, listeners, fun, important fact.

Stoic philosophy is not rooted in some bullshit notion that

we should not have emotions.

Sure.

So don't confuse our modern word of stoic or stoicism with

the value of stoic philosophy.

Good to know.

Anyway,

thank

you

Matt.

The more you know.

Thank you.

Last question.

Yes.

If you could co-op a video game with any historical figure,

who would it be and why?

So there is a temptation with this to be like, who's the people that

would give the most knowledge?

But I think, I don't generally think that there is like a historical

figure that would change the world with their insights to me.

So I think my.

Maybe frivolous answer is like, I play this game Dead by Daylight that

talked about a lot, which has a lot of like horror characters in it.

I love horror movies.

Um, I would just like to play that game co-op with a team of three

people that like made horror movies.

Okay.

Just like show them like, oh, did you know, like Wes Craven, did you know that

Freddie Krueger was gonna be like this?

What does it feel like to see Freddie Kruger uh, attacking, um, like

Nancy Wheeler from Stranger Things?

Yay.

Oh no.

Things like that.

Love it.

I think that would be fun.

Cool.

Well, Sam, thank you so much for coming on the pod.

This has been so much fun.

My pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

Bye guys.

We'll see you next time.

Bye.

This has been another episode of But For Real, produced by Valerie Martin and

Emerson writer, and edited by Sean Conlin,

but For Real is a Gaia Center production.

The Gaia Center offers individual couples and group therapy for clients

across Tennessee and in person in our Nashville office, as well as

coaching for clients worldwide.

For show notes or to learn more about our work, visit gaia center.co

or find us on Instagram at the Gaia Center and at, but for Real Pod

but for Real is intended for education and entertainment and is not a

substitute for mental health treatment.

Also since we host this podcast primarily as humans rather than clinicians, we

are not shy here about sharing our opinions on everything from snacks and

movies to politicians and social issues.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode.

See you next time.

Bestie.