Heather: [00:00:00] Hello everybody, and welcome to an amazing guest episode with Caitlin V. if you have not already heard of Caitlin, Caitlin V is a renowned sex and relationship coach specializing in helping men overcome erectile dysfunction, performance anxiety, and premature ejaculation. A former sexual health researcher and policy analyst, she skyrocketed to internet fame after a viral video on female pleasure.

Today. She works with clients worldwide to resolve mismatched libidos, enhance sexual confidence, and create more satisfying intimate experiences. Blending personal experience with evidence-based science. Caitlyn is on a mission to foster a sex positive world where pleasure is prioritized. With millions of views on YouTube and nearly a million subscribers, she has become a leading voice in the field.

Her expertise is now reaching an even wider audience with her TV show. Good Sex on Discovery + and Max So welcome, Caitlin.

caitlyn: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Heather: Thank you for being here. I'm super [00:01:00] excited to talk to you and yeah, checked out some of your videos and I can see why you've done so well on YouTube. It, it really is kind of the blend of, you know, just uncensored information and also sort of thought provoking stuff about like, like, oh yeah, , why didn't we think about this?

Why, why don't we talk about this more? so yeah, I love it.

caitlyn: thank you. I've been very fortunate on YouTube and I intend to stay there.

Heather: That's good. So it sounds like you also had some kind of career change if you were like policy analyst. So how did you get into this

caitlyn: well, I knew that I was going to do something in the field of sex from a very early age, like 15, 16, even a little bit sooner than that. And I told my parents, you know, I'm gonna be a sexologist when I grow up. And I think they were very kindly like, okay. You know, sure. Everyone, no one knows what they're gonna do when they're 16 years old.

Well, I did, and I. Yeah, well, you know, the, the longer story there, sorry.

Heather: That you just knew.

caitlyn: I just knew.

well, I [00:02:00] figured out how to masturbate early on in life. I figured out how to give myself orgasms. I didn't ever get shamed for it. You know, I didn't do it in a problematic way. I wasn't doing it like at the dinner table.

And then when I, when I found out that like, that was something you could do with other people later on in life, I was like, that sounds. Fun. And then I went to sex ed and, you know, the disease focused pregnancy avoidance model. I was like, this is not What.

I've been experiencing. You know, I like to say it's like kinda like teaching people how to drive by only talking about accidents, you know?

There's so much more to driving, right? almost everything.

Heather: Yeah.

caitlyn: Yeah.

Yeah.

Most everything you do driving related is actually not related at all to accidents or even just to avoiding them, right? Like most driving is about getting from point A to point B with a certain degree of pleasure or urgency. I love, I'm gonna drive to Las Vegas later.

Today Really because I can, like, I love, I love, I love that analogy. I enjoy it like it can be a pleasurable activity. So I didn't know that there were careers that were more, I would say like are already laid out in the world of sex and sexology. [00:03:00] And so I went and got a conflict studies degree. And for my undergrad, I went into public health.

So I, have a master's in public health from Indiana University where I worked for the Center for Sexual Health Promotion and was involved in studies on like orgasm. People have orgasms while they're exercising. I was involved in a major study on bacterial vaginosis that was attempting to prove, finally, that it actually can be sexually transmitted.

We didn't get conclusive research because the lab assistant threw out all of the samples that I had spent, an entire year. Tirelessly connect, collecting. But anyways, I went all the way to get my doctorate. I was at the, the University of Texas School of Public Health in Houston, and I was working as a policy analyst through the TMC 72 Institute, which doesn't exist anymore.

But I was getting data for Texas Congress people on public health and like answering these really complex and really fascinating policy questions where they're like, just no, there's no data set that actually exists. So I was like putting together all these cool things and had a really cool job. Had like a corner office.

Was the assistant to the dean and I was [00:04:00] like, this is not where I'm meant to be. Like I wanna be with people. And I had been teaching sex ed that whole time and leading groups and working with L-G-B-T-Q-I-A and unhoused Youth and L-G-B-T-Q or, and then, Polyamorous and non-monogamous communities of adults, and I

was just like, I need to get out of the ivory tower because all I'm doing in here is talking to other people who already get it.

And what I wanna do more than anything is talk to people who need this information and need someone like me to deliver it, because inherently by knowing for my entire life that this is what I was going to do. Part of that is because I've always been doing it. Like I've always been a very safe space. I was, you know, the girl that, like you called, if you put Icy Hot on your balls and you were not sure what to do about it, uh, or like was, you

Heather: I

caitlyn: the bathroom. That's a whole, well, girl, that's the whole story. I was like, your dad is a doctor. I do not have any experience with icy hot or testicles. I am 16 years old, like wa, I don't know, wash it with soap. I call it my [00:05:00] lamp.

Heather: and the person's dad was a doctor.

caitlyn: Yeah.

he's there as a doctor. I mean, this is on a landline phone. I was young when I was fielding these questions. And then, I was in the birth, the bathroom at Burger King with my friends taking pregnancy tests and holding hands through all kinds of stuff. So I, it came to be very, very natural. I was meant to do this, and I realized I was like, meant to do it in a way that like my personality could come through and where I could have the direct impact of working with one person and seeing how much of a difference this information could make in their life.

And here we are 20 plus years later, everyone is glad. It was not a phase.

Heather: Yes. Oh my God, that's, that's cool. My story is so different. I feel like

caitlyn: your,

Heather: I, started out repressed and then I was like, oh, you know, this is a thing. people, people need support. I had the same feeling though about like, oh, I can be a safe space for this. You know, like, and I want to be, and people need that, so

caitlyn: yeah, there's like three different paths. I think there's maybe four, like you become a sex exert because you experience some degree of [00:06:00] shame or repression or intense religiosity. You experienced some kind of trauma that you were hell bent on healing from, uh, and wanted to prevent other people from experiencing.

You had like some degree of permission permissiveness in your house where that curiosity was allowed to exist, and then maybe there's one where like. It's something even further than that.

Like your parents were like even more fun and more cutting and more progressive. For me, my parents weren't like, especially progressive.

I mean, I was allowed to say I wanted to be a sexologist, but it's not as if sex was like a subject in my household. You know? It was, we were still, I grew up in Michigan. It was, it was still like a more typical early nineties Midwestern

Heather: same.

caitlyn: family.

Heather: Yeah.

caitlyn: Oh.

Heather: Yeah. Uh, but yeah. Yeah, the Midwestern upbringing. anyways. Okay, so we're, we're both here now, so that's fun. , But let's, let's talk a little bit about the official topic for today of like the, the [00:07:00] dead bedroom, the sexless marriage. , And let's talk a little bit about like, how do you think people wind up there?

caitlyn: Well, I can tell you how I wound up there?

Heather: Oh, interesting.

caitlyn: I, there was a lot of resentment that grew over time in my, uh, in my marriage, and I'm not, obviously, this is also my ex-husband's story, so I'm not gonna get too deeply into it. But what I'll say is that resentment, that was unhealed pains that were not significantly worked through.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

caitlyn: Maybe also fair to say, just differences in style that neither one of us could, uh, totally comprehend the other's way of doing things. when it came to like sex and relationships, like we had different values, I'll say. and all of that led to a tremendous amount of resentment existing inside of our relationship.

And at the time I knew that, but I couldn't quite put my finger all the way on what was. [00:08:00] What was causing the distance between us? Like I had a sense, right? But I wasn't necessarily capable, especially early on of putting all of the words on it for me, I would, I would come back to the words that we use, like mismatched libidos or, you know, just, uh, differences in style or something like that.

But like, really it was, it was this, this. Like rotten core of hurt feelings that were never addressed, that slowly ate away at our erotic connection over time.

Heather: Yeah.

caitlyn: I think that's one of a few paths, right? I think that anytime that there's things that come up in a couple that don't get addressed, it creates like a fog on, on the, on the window between two people, right?

And if you don't make a practice of like wiping away that fog by being honest, transparent, having the hard conversations, that eventually it sticks and you can't like see into the other person or be seen by them. And that's intimacy, right? Like you, you can't see into the other person. You can't be intimate with the other person.

I [00:09:00] think that's one of the most common ways. I think another common way, and I, because I specialize in working with men, this is one that I see really often is that a couple starts having sex in the, in, in the first two or three years of their relationship. In like one way in particular. That relies a lot on that, like hormonal intense motion.

The, the like, the neurotransmitters going, ding, ding, ding, ding. And, and the sex that they're having is very sexual blueprint. And I can talk about the erotic blueprints if you're not for Okay.

We, we can,

Heather: Audience might like to hear

caitlyn: Yeah.

We, we'll, well, I'll, I'll talk about them in a second here. But you're having very sexual sex, like meaning that you're focusing on orgasms and penetrations and genitals and naked bodies.

Penetrations, Yeah. And then when. Your relationship shifts both externally, like in the relationship but also internally in your body, in your neurotransmitters, in your unique mix of chemicals to a more companionate relationship where that like drive to [00:10:00] mate isn't there anymore. I think a lot of people have, uh, challenges transitioning to having sex in a different style, uh, which is why I really like the erotic blueprints 'cause there's.

Energetic blueprint, people who are aroused by teas in anticipation. The sensual blueprint, people who are aroused by things in their, all five of their senses, the sexual blueprint, and then the kinky blueprint, which is people who are turned on by the taboo, both physical and psychological taboo. And then also the shapeshifter who needs all of those.

And we can talk more about those. 'cause when I think about like mismatched desires in dead bedrooms, I always come back To the erotic blueprints. Because one of the other causes I, think of dead bedrooms is two different styles. Okay. So you have one partner who really prefers a lot of touch and tease and anticipation.

Who cares about the emotional quality, the energetic quality between two people who wants a lot of like lightness and maybe even spirituality inside of their sexuality. Who gets really turned off [00:11:00] if someone goes like straight for their genitals or straight for their nipples or comes on too hard, too fast?

And then you may have another partner who's say, a sensual blueprint. And they're really turned on by long. And like highly pleasurable and highly sensory experiences. They want massages and baths and oils and candles, and they wanna go like really slow, but they want a lot of touch. And they can have these, both energetics and essentials can have like full body non genital orgasms.

Uh, and, and they, they, they wanna explore these realms. Maybe they have a slightly different way of doing it. Or maybe you have someone who's in the kink blueprint who needs. Taboo. Who needs to feel like they're breaking rules or they're being transgressive? And of course that's highly subjective. Like what's taboo to someone who grew up in a very religious household

Heather: percent.

caitlyn: could be very different than someone who grew up in a less. Repressive household, right? But if they need to feel like there's something [00:12:00] taboo, kinky rule, breaky about their sex life, maybe they haven't been able to articulate that for themselves. Maybe they feel shame around that. So they haven't opened up to their partner around it. And then they're keeping that to themselves.

And then, you know, they want to experiment with something a lot more physically intense. And their partner's like, I, I want you to barely even touch me at all. Like all of these things. If we don't have language to describe them, and if we've never held space for ourself and our partner to really do the thought work around like, what is it that turns me on and what about that turns me on, then it's very easy to just feel like we're mismatched, that there's not a easeful place for us to meet, and it's not true.

It's just about developing not just language, but also skills and finding places where there's overlap. But I think a lot of people are reluctant to put a ton of work into their sex life and self-reflection into their sex life in that way.

Heather: I agree. I think I totally agree with everything you said. And I see a lot of times people are just afraid to rock the boat in their relationship and they can kind of get into [00:13:00] that pattern of like, well, things aren't so bad. Or like, you know, we just can just focus on the kid or focus on cleaning the house and, you know, going to see our parents and whatever is filling up your life.

And then just like, not actually make the time. To have the conversation. 'cause also it's like un uncomfy and you don't want to, you know.

caitlyn: and they're like, what? We never, there's no messages out there that are like, you know, really encouraging us to. Devote time and energy to our sex life in a, like, in a deep and meaningful way. I mean, and not to say people, like, plenty of people do it right, like both of our audiences, people that listen to us, that follow us like they are doing that, right?

But it is very easy to say, I gotta put my time and my energy on things that make us money or look out for our future or keep us safe and secure. And I know.

Heather: Yeah.

caitlyn: Yeah.

Right.

Of course. Of course. Like, yeah, my, I have a coach that always is like, Caitlin, did you do anything that didn't have an ROI this week? I love build. I love business. Like I love it. I didn't think I was ever gonna [00:14:00] be an entrepreneur, but I love it. And then I'll be like, oh my, I like my room needs to get clean, but I'm just not gonna do it 'cause I need to finish editing this chapter of the book. And she's like, okay. But like.

Cleaning your room is also a valid thing. You might want to do that. It might feel good even though it's not directly related to any of your projects.

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Heather: Sounds just like me. Honestly. I totally, totally get it. Where I'm like, oh, I'm like up till 2:00 AM 'cause I got sucked into work and like, oh, I haven't cleaned my kitchen this week. Like, oh, I should do that.

caitlyn: I know. I was up till 2:00 AM last night. Plants need watering. I'm going outta town today, like it's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine.

Heather: Yes. But yes, managing the brain and we, we discussed before we hit record that we were both a little neuro spicy.

So for our neuros spicy listeners, we get you.

caitlyn: For neuros spicy people, like we tend to prioritize sex a little bit differently too, in my experience. And I think part of that is because pleasure seeking, novelty seeking sex is a really profound way to be present, right? Like especially if you, struggle with ADHD [00:15:00] or if your mind wanders, even if you don't identify as neuros spicy, but you have a, a mind that wanders because you are a human being that.

Sex is one of the, the most immediate and accessible things for most of us to experience real presence because it's such a sensory experience. And the realist of real stuff takes place in our eyes and our nose and our mouth, and our skin and our ears. Like a sensory is how we know that we're in the present moment because it doesn't exist in the past and the future.

And sex can be a really profound way to access that shouldn't be your only way to access that, right? But it can be also very profoundly. Intense and scary for people too, for those same reasons.

Heather: Yes, I think so too. And I think, I'm glad you kind of brought up, the people who maybe seek it as, as like a dopamine hit or as a way to be present. because I see that a lot with my higher desire partners, you know, and I think often the people that. Would work with someone like us. You know, there's someone who has the higher desire.

'cause if both have low desire, they'd be like, oh, okay, it's fine. We're just not having sex and neither of us care. [00:16:00] Right. But usually the people who reach out about dead bedroom or sexless marriage is 'cause somebody actually really wants it and the other person maybe feels guilty. But, well, yeah. What I find with the higher desire partner is like, they also need to kind of work on balance and finding other ways to kind of get the dopamine and even like the validation and the sense of security, you know, not just from their sex life.

caitlyn: Right. They can get hyper-focused on sex as the way to meet those things, but really ironically. What they need to do to succeed with, like making a significant shift inside of their relationship is to find the, all of the other ways to meet those things, including meeting their sexual needs. So like some of my clients who come to me who are , say that they're not having enough sex with their spouse, I'll be like, okay, well we need to start you masturbating more and intentionally and consciously and treating it like it is sex with yourself, right?

Treating it with the same reverence as you would sex with your spouse. You know, I. I was just thinking right before we hit record, I have too many male masturbator in this room. There's like, I've been an [00:17:00] explosion in male sex toys over the last couple years and there are some incredible, I mean, first of all, they all look like super futuristic thermos.

I dunno how else to describe them. They all look like giant alien thermos that have like some kind of alien coffee in them.

Heather: I just saw one of those. It was like the male rose or something.

caitlyn: Oh yeah, that, that, that's actually very, very popular. Yeah, I have, have that on?

my recommended products page because it is, it is inexpensive. It's like in the $60 range or something where a lot of these are above a hundred and it's really effective. I'll say you should read the instruction manual. 'cause I broke the first one that they sent me, washing it wrong.

But other than that, uh, but there, there are, there's also an explosion of ones coming out of like. A bunch of Chinese manufacturers have jumped onto this, and so they're producing these ones that like heat and suck and spin. And there's ones, uh, that give you feedback like how long you lasted and how many times you stroked, and I mean, it is.

The market. I don't know. [00:18:00] They just realized, I guess manufacturers just realized that there like really was a market for male sex toys because there have been strokers for a long time. Right. The fleshlight and the pocket

Heather: Right.

caitlyn: But like now they're electronic. They have one that you can sync to, porn videos.

Heather: Whoa.

caitlyn: I have all of, I have a list of these on my website. If anyone is interested in checking them out, I, I vetted these companies. Um, I haven't, I would like to do like a full wire cutter test where I just leave them running for like 24 hours or whatever and like see how long it takes for their motors to burn out.

Um, but at least all the ones that I have, I have had like a real human being try, or I've tried to hook it up to the porn site myself or whatever. Anyway. So I say, get rid of the p*rn Start like listening to music or doing a m*sturb*tion meditation or like really elevate your self-pleasure experience so that when you go to your partner, you're not coming from such a lack and such a scarcity, and you're like, I need it.

Give it to me. right. Because it's, it's very unattractive.

Heather: So unattractive.

caitlyn: And the same is true with like your intimacy. Like even if it's not [00:19:00] necessarily romantic intimacy with your partner, like spend time with your friends, spend time with your peers so that you have the sense of like being connected and being seen.

You know, like once we start to put all these pieces together so that you're experiencing like some degree of connectedness or, or pleasure, we've taken the pressure off of sex, then it's then you can approach your partner. From a, from a very different energetic imprint, and you're likely to get a very different result.

Heather: a hundred percent. I think that's like manifesting in the law of attraction too. You know?

caitlyn: Yeah. Totally.

Heather: yeah, if you're needy, like that's not gonna help you get your needs met, you know,

caitlyn: Feel the way you want to feel.

Heather: Right. Fill, fill your own cup up first. and yeah, the first thing I ask on my assessment that I do with new clients is like, about all the other areas of their life.

You know, like, how do you feel with your social life? Like, are you well connected? Do you feel supported? Do you move your body? How's your nutrition? You know, and it's like there's [00:20:00] such correlations, you know, between. General wellness and life satisfaction and like what's going on with your sex life? So it's, it is very holistic.

caitlyn: Yeah, it's not like a com compartmental. I mean, We treat it like it's compartmentalized because we find one person, we expect that we're gonna go into the bedroom, shut the door, turn off the lights, and everything is just going to work. And it's going to, it's, I like to say the way you do.

one thing is the way you do everything and sex is just something that we treat.

Differently than other things because it has different consequences in other things. You know, like I can eat dinner with as many people as I want, it's not gonna produce a child, right? So sex is different, but at the same time, when we treat it so differently, we also run a risk of, of not being able to apply the same methods and creativity and perspective that we could if we were say, trying to create a really great dinner date.

Heather: it's true. I love that. So, okay, so we're getting kind of clear on like [00:21:00] different ways people can wind up in this situation, right? They have mismatched erotic blueprints, they're avoiding the hard conversations, they're letting those just little things, you know, kind of slide the windows, getting foggy. how do they fix it?

So.

caitlyn: I wanna add one more to that list. So.

Uh, and this is especially true for, uh, cisgender women, is that a lifetime of having sex before they were ready?

Heather: Oh my gosh.

caitlyn: And premature penetration has real consequences on the body, the mind, the spirit of women, and it's not particularly anyone's fault. All of us were raised in this idea that s3x is penetration and women should be ready for it when a partner is ready for it.

But if we haven't taken the time either as the person with a vagina and vulva, or the person who is having s3x with someone with a vagina and vulva, if we haven't taken the time to say, [00:22:00] we are not going to have penetration unless your body is a full yes, fully ready, relaxed, turned on aroused. What happens is just like any other muscle that you worked out a thousand times without stretching it first, it's going to get tight and sore.

And the muscles of the, uh, entrance to the vagina are somewhat similar to the muscles of the eye in that if you try to stick something in them, they close automatically. You can't just like, easily finger your eye just or poke someone else in the eye, Right.

Like those muscles, you don't have to think about squinting to like, you know, your eye does it automatically.

And so your, the pelvic floor is similar in the sense that when it is. Being approached with a poke that it's not ready for, it can have the experience of closing down. And what happens over time is that sex becomes uncomfortable at best and very painful at worst. And of course, if [00:23:00] women who are already slut-shamed for having sex slut -shamed for wanting sex, not as exposed to sexually relevant materials, like we don't see as much porn, we don't see as much erotic material in general, like.

We generally, through our culture and our conditioning are sort of like kept in a sex free little bubble a lot of the time where sex like doesn't exist for us other than serving a male partner. And we end up being very, very separated from our eroticism. And then our partners, at least like my clients, my, my guys on YouTube are like, I don't understand.

She doesn't know.

what she wants. She can't say what she wants. Like she's not, she doesn't have sex for herself. She's only having sex for me. Like I know that our sex life would be better if she was. Into this for herself. I know like when we do have sex and we take it slow and it's really great, she reaches really high heights of pleasure and afterwards she's like, that was amazing.

I love that. Why don't we do that more often? Like they see this. But it's very difficult to [00:24:00] sort of take all of those decades of conditioning and remove them and replace them with a more sexually empowering story that is like you do. Have your own sexuality. It belongs to no one but you. It's not dangerous.

It doesn't make you a bad person or a harlett or a sinner, and you could enjoy it for yourself.

Heather: Yeah. Thank you for, for pausing us, for moving on. That's so important. And honestly, that's so much of what I work with, with the women, that are my clients. And it's, it's sad. I think like that's one of the sad parts I think of like doing the work that we do sometimes is like seeing these patterns of like, wow, just like as a whole, you know, women are not prioritizing their pleasure and it is because of conditioning and it.

I think when you're an individual and you don't see the aggregate, it's kind of like not as sad. And then when you're like doing this work and you're seeing the patterns across the population, it's like, oh wow, this is really impactful. but yeah. I'm glad [00:25:00] you brought that up. So, okay, so then there's some big, so there's some big things.

There's some big things and there's some like logistical things and there's some style differences. So, you know, if a couple is listening and they're just like, we, where the fuck do we even start? You know, like, what are your thoughts on that?

caitlyn: I'd say my, my general. I'll, I'll give you two answers here because I think that they're, they're both equally important. The first thing that I try to do with all things big and small, both professionally and personally, is tease apart all of the different variables because it feels very overwhelming when it's all occurring all at once, right?

Heather: Yeah.

caitlyn: And especially if like, this has been going on for a while and now we've just decided like, okay, we're gonna do the hard work of opening the door on this. And then, you know, on the other side of the door is like 20 years of debris and detritus. Like, that's a lot to, to kind of take in. That can kind of occur as like a giant cloud that's just hanging over you threatening to pour down rain on your parade at any given moment.

So I would say like, give yourself [00:26:00] permission to pull these various. Threads apart and understand that it's not even that you don't have to tackle them all at once. You can't, you will not tackle them all at once because it's kind of like a jewelry. Even if you've ever had a jewelry box where all of the necklaces and bracelets just got like startled together, like you gotta kind of like free a little bit over here, right?

To free a little bit over here to wiggle this one out. And then like, you know, eventually over time all of them start to release, but at first you're like. Oh my God. I'm just, I have to throw out all my good jewelry. Like, you know, you're just like, I, we, you, you start wiggling and wiggling and wiggling and you, you pull on it from every single side.

Heather: I think you have my favorite analogy so far of any guest.

caitlyn: Oh wow. Thank you. Well, trust me when I, these are, because I've thought about these before. Every so often on YouTube, I try to come up with an analogy live, and I am the worst at it. There's so many moments on YouTube where you'll just see me be like, I can't believe I just said that. It's nothing at all like spaghetti, but that's where my brain went.

Um.

Heather: It just [00:27:00] came out.

caitlyn: Yeah.

So anyways, this is, this is how I recommend pulling them apart. This is the order in which I recommend that you address them, understanding that it's not going to be a linear process, and you're gonna revisit, I'm gonna give you step one and two, and then you're gonna go step four, and then that's gonna loosen up some step two stuff and all that, right?

So step one is address anything in the physical bodies, right? If you, if neither are both of you, has had a checkup recently, if you haven't gone to a urologist or a gynecologist, like go address your hormones. Right. Get really good. Don't settle for like the standard hormone testing that doctors will kind of give you.

Like you can go to other companies. There are online retailers that do more complicated hormone testing. Functional health doctors are a great place for doing hormone testing. But, get a more complex read on what's

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caitlyn: actually going on inside of your body, whether you're. Male or female or non-binary, like, we wanna know what's going on.

we need to address that first. But then also, like you were saying, on a physiological level, like sleep, how we are eating, how we are moving, like address your physical health first. If [00:28:00] you are not building strength, and this is true for, people of all genders. If you're not building strength, go build physical strength because you need physical strength.

You know, everything that happens in the physical body also happens in the mental, emotional and spiritual bodies. So if you're strong in your physical body, you are strong in the capacity to hold these conversations, you'll get stronger in your capacity to, and you will enjoy sex more. So much of what leads to orgasm, especially in the female body, is happening.

Inside of our own, like it's our body's ability to squish and pull and, and like, flex its own muscles inside of itself, right? Like we have this image of like a penis going in and it just hits the pleasure spots. Nah, uhuh, no. It is all of these muscles that are highly innervated that are squeezing and moving and pushing.

And so if you're just having sex side note, if you're just having sex, sort of like without engaging your core, you're not having as much pleasure as you possibly could.

Heather: it's so true. I've realized this masturbating, that like squeezing my glutes and [00:29:00] moving my core in different ways. I'm like, oh.

caitlyn: Mm-hmm.

Heather: A whole thing that's like separate from whatever I'm doing with a toy or a hand or whatever. Yeah.

caitlyn: I like to think about like, how can I add like more surfaces to, uh, give myself like resistance during sex, like the wall or like, you know, if my partner can like lift a part of my body up and I have to hold the rest of me up or whatever, like the more that I can engage thoughtfully, and it doesn't have to be like for.

10, 20, 15 minutes. It may be like five minutes total of like really intense engagement. But I've had like the wildest orgasms, the biggest, best orgasms of my life. Like, like a full kundalini awakening, like actually literally passing out, like losing consciousness was a little scary. all came from like really intense pelvic floor and core exercise.

Heather: Wow.

caitlyn: And which is not to, I'm not aiming for those every single time, but That's just, you know anyways, all of which is to say that build you, move your body, build, strengthen your body. [00:30:00] There are lots and lots of benefits.

Heather: our bodies are so amazing. I'm just like astounded on, on the regular basis, like how much our bodies can handle and how many wonderful things they can do for us. And I, and I do think sex is just a way to like appreciate that.

caitlyn: Yeah,

totally. And when you are feeling good in your body and like physically, well, you are more likely to want to engage in intimacy of all kinds, right? Like. Not feeling great in your body is a huge barrier. And, and I, and also like not feeling confident in your body. And that doesn't mean like being a particular size or shape or weight, but like when you are strong in your body.

And it took me a long time. I, I was in my mid thirties before I really actually had any sort of understanding of this because I kind of thought that exercise just was not really for me. And I had asthma as a kid, so I like didn't. Yeah, I was just like, I kept outta gym class my whole life and just told like, you know, this is you.

You're never gonna be athletic. And then later on in life, I was like, yeah, but I still have a body. Like I could still move this body in a way that's like fun and engaging. So [00:31:00] I'm a hardcore Pilates devotee because you two, you know Joseph Pilates.

Heather: teacher training.

caitlyn: Say it again.

Heather: I just signed up for teacher training.

caitlyn: Oh my god, I do you know Joseph Pilates and what he said about s3x

Heather: No, I don't know yet. I haven't started by training.

caitlyn: Uh, Joe, I'm paraphrasing here. Joe said that, uh, one of the core missions of Pilates was to have people be better at and enjoy sex more because the more that people were, uh, in pleasure and making love with each other, the less they would be in conflict and making war. I.

Heather: Oh my God, that's amazing. Yeah, I think going like a couple times a week, I do reformer classes for like the last couple years probably. And so my studio needed a new teacher and I was like, I'm feeling called to do this.

caitlyn: Oh my God, Congratulations. I love that. If I'm ever in your neck of the woods, I'm coming to your class

Heather: my God, that'd be so fun. Um, but yes,

caitlyn: Pilates 'cause it's, very core focused and it can be very gentle, right? Like when I started my journey with that, like today, I'm also like two and a half years in twice a week. And I can do stuff that I [00:32:00] never thought I was gonna do.

But it was a, it was a progression that led to being here. Um, anyways, I think Pilates is. me miraculous for sex because of the core related stuff and because that's like low key, one of the goals of it, although certainly they don't. You know, kind

Heather: I love that. That's like such a fun fact today. Thank you for sharing that.

caitlyn: and for me, having a stronger body also allowed me to develop the strength that I needed to, and my relationship when I got divorced, like having a stronger body, changed a lot of things for me that were subtle shifts.

It's not as if I. You know, I'm now entering like weightlifting competitions or anything like that. It was just like I felt more at home in my body. I had more connection to my body, and that led to a greater ability to move throughout the world with a degree of confidence. So start with the physical body.

Heather: Yep.

caitlyn: Next address the mental body. So the mind, right, those, the stories that we tell ourselves, the language that we use to describe [00:33:00] ourselves and our world. This is gonna sound particularly coachy, but it makes such a huge difference. I cannot overstate it, right? All of us use particular phrases, words, we reaffirm beliefs both internally and externally in the ways that we speak and.

A lot of the beliefs that we have are disempowering in one way or another. A lot of the language that we use to describe our relationships and each other and our sex life.

Heather: So revealing.

caitlyn: Yes.

Right. So much so, right, like this is, this is the way in which we primarily express ourself. And the other piece of this is our mind represents, for me, communication both internally and externally.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

caitlyn: Because I can be really thoughtful about how I communicate something to a partner, but if internally I'm like, this is all their fault and they're so full of shit and I hate them so much, and they need to do this and they're broken, if they would just fix themselves, Right. Like that's still not just our mind's way of communicating and making things true for us, but it's also an attempt to control the other person without [00:34:00] actually like doing anything to influence the situation. Right. And so I, for me, I've done a lot of like personal development. I did Landmark, which isn't for everyone, but it may be a good, it may be a good fit for some folks. It's just a three day introductory course to these concepts and, and, and better relationships through communication. It can be kind of brutal, but I think you're capable of it.

I, I like to think that people are strong and have capacity to do these things. but either way, a lot of, because I work particularly with men. This, I, I have found that men struggle with this kind of concept a little bit, that like your mind creates your reality and it's not, I think that hard to get, when we think about it in terms of like, if you were looking for all of the evidence in the world that life is crap, you're unwanted, you're not desired, and you're not enough.

There's plenty of evidence that will support all of

Heather: We'll find that. Yeah.

caitlyn: Yeah.

totally. And if you are looking for evidence that supports that you are [00:35:00] worthy, that you are wanted, that you are enough, which I think even just the concept of enough, not enough is kind of like, I'd like to move beyond that, but like you have to start somewhere, right?

Heather: Yeah.

caitlyn: You will also find that, but it is way more work to change your momentum. From one to the other. If you are so used to searching for I'm not wanted, I'm not loved, I'm not enough, and then you're gonna start, it's not gonna happen overnight that you start finding evidence of being wanted and loved. But you can find little pieces and allow that to build a new mountain over time.

Heather: Yes. Yes. And so often people don't see that. Like that's part of my job kind of, I think when I'm coaching couples is like, Hey, you're, this is not an easy process. Like your partner is showing up with you. Just the fact that they're here, that you guys have invested the time and money in this, like you're lucky in that sense.

Like you have a partner who like gives a shit on that level.

caitlyn: Yes, Yeah. And let's be so grateful that you have a partner who cares about your sex [00:36:00] life enough to drag you both in here, right? They're carrying that torch for both of you because the sex life does matter.

Heather: It does matter.

caitlyn: And you're carrying the torch of like childcare or, or worrying about finances or whatever, like we can all appreciate the various strength.

We don't need to all do all of the things, Right. All of us can represent. One of the things the, I've been doing this, this particular kind of work for 10 years and last night I stayed up in two until 2:00 AM editing the manuscript of my book, right? Because I have deadlines to meet with the editors. I also managed to, I, I'm a procrastinate packer.

I don't know if you suffer from this too, but I hate packing for a trip. Oh my

Heather: hate it so much.

caitlyn: hate it so much. I would, and I, I travel like every week, so I just like. I'm just, well, I'm just constantly sort of anxious about packing is how I'm just kind of constantly like I'm getting better at it. But like over years anyway, I packed for my entire trip.

I packed my car, I took care of all of these things from my previous trip. I put all my laundry away and I edited my book and two other documents for my work. And at 2:00 AM [00:37:00] at 2:00 AM I was laying in bed and I was like, oh my God. You're such a piece of shit. 'cause you stayed up until 2:00 AM why can't you like work on, why can't you, like, why can't you schedule your life better than this?

Like, you know, you have a podcast first thing in The morning and then I was like, Caitlin, hold, slow it down. Let's, let's review everything that you did tonight. Instead of focusing on the fact that you didn't water your plants, you did 11 different difficult tasks

Heather: Mm-hmm.

caitlyn: in a row and they took until 2:00 AM but you moved with speed.

You didn't get distracted like you, you did everything you needed to do,

Heather: could. And it was pretty damn good.

caitlyn: Let's celebrate all of the things that we did. do instead of focusing on like the one or two things that I didn't do, and instead like problem solve for those. Okay.

Like do have time to wander the plans tomorrow. Yeah.

I do like real because I, because I packed last night.

I can do those things tomorrow. Like anyways, all of which is to say that it is a process. our brains evolved to focus on problems and

Heather: they did.

caitlyn: things that can kill us and hurt us. And so it takes a ton of work. [00:38:00] It does, but it's totally worth it. So that's where we go next. The mental part

Heather: Yeah.

caitlyn: after that, the emotional body.

I start with the mental body because It's far more familiar with most people. I work with a lot of people who are cerebral. I'm pretty cerebral. It took a lot for me to learn how to like, feel my feelings, but learning how to actually feel and process. Your feelings all of the way through, which may not be something that you do with your partner.

Heather: No.

caitlyn: somatic work is highly individual. I found that doing it individually with a somatic therapist or coach and then doing it in a group of people of all the same gender is really helpful as well, because being witnessed by other people and seeing their emotional process is also very important. But if you are not, uh, if you are like me and you grew up a.

You know, someone who was taught that emotions were like, kind of at best, inappropriate to have around. then there there's probably a backlog of things that have been stored in your body, in your emotional

Heather: so true. It's so much work.

caitlyn: yeah, it's, you know. It's gonna take time you to get through those. [00:39:00] But going, you get to get through them honestly.

Heather: Yes. The other side is so good, so worth it.

caitlyn: my God. Doing somatic work is the, the thing that has changed my life more than anything else. I worked with a somatic coach every week for five years,

Heather: Oh wow.

caitlyn: and now I'm like experiencing a degree of like quietness in my mind that I actually find almost to be unsettling because it's so unfamiliar. I'm just like, everything is fine.

Everything is like deeply fine. For the first time in my life, I'm experiencing everything is like deeply fine and it doesn't mean that like my life has not changed. I still deal with the same stuff as I've ever done. You know, less drama and stuff because I choose my relationships more cautiously and I engage more intelligently.

But like I still am just sort of like, where's all the other than packing, like, which I'm also getting way more fine about anyway. Somatic experiencing, dealing with your emotional body is really huge. [00:40:00] Then on top of that, like next place to go to is really developing, a deeper understanding of the relationship itself, your attachment styles.

This is where like real communication skills come in, not just the like thinking about our, our communication skills, but like really deepening and practicing our communication skills, becoming safe places for each other, understanding also the context in which you grew up, your family, your culture. Expectations on yourself in, in being a man or a woman. and then beyond that, finally graduating to a place where we can see sex as a. Spiritual practice, a practice that, is like divine in nature that invites an experience of unison that you can't get elsewhere. So that, that is a, that was a long-winded way of saying that this is, this was the, this is the process that I would recommend understanding that you may have some touch on, Wow.

sex is divine, and then go back to something in the body and then go straight to something in the mind and then have to feel something that's emotional.

But once you've develop all those skills. Then you have [00:41:00] some, you have some capacity in each of those different layers,

Heather: Mm-hmm.

caitlyn: and if you're moving through that, all of that with another person, no matter what happens on the other side inside of your bedroom, you're both gonna be much happier, more grounded, centered, and capable people.

Heather: I love that it's, it's so true. And like sometimes people are so surprised that, like as a sex coach, you know. We're not talking about sex all that much sometimes, you know, it's like sometimes it is the, the emotions and how to work with your own thoughts and communication skills and, and then all that winds up being like really, really fun when you're talking about blow jobs and toys and orgasms, you know?

Yeah.

caitlyn: I like to say that, you know, s3x is something that the last. 300, 400,000 years of homo sapiens have been successfully mating. It's only been in the last couple decades that you could even have a child without s3x Like s3x has been the one thing that every single one of your ancestors has in common.[00:42:00]

You know, you're meant to do it. Your body was built to do it. Your DNA is geared up to do it like it is just conditioning and thoughts and beliefs and all kinds of stuff like and bodily stuff. Like, yes, it all gets in the way, but the more of that that we can clear up, the more easily that. s3x just runs through you because it is part of you if you choose to engage it

Heather: I just read, um, I dunno if you're familiar with Daoism.

caitlyn: a little bit.

Heather: I just read the dao de ching and the whole idea is what you just said s3x flows through you. It's like the idea of like life force energy and the infinite and the divine and kind of like the, the message. This is probably not the official message.

It's basically like, get outta the f*cking way. Just it flow.

caitlyn: Get outta the f

Heather: Yeah.

caitlyn: It like less doing more being the thing. Quit trying. I mean, the, the interesting thing is that I think in, in coaching and therapy and in somatic practice and, and in in personal growth and development and communication, like we start with a lot of trying, but the goal is to get to [00:43:00] being,

Heather: yes.

Marker

Heather: that's beautiful. One of my main goals in life right now is to try less.

caitlyn: mm.

Heather: Um, you know, I think there's a lot of people that I work with too. There's like, we just try so hard and sometimes we're like making it worse or it's backfiring and just by like sensing and being and you know, allowing, , some pretty great things can happen.

caitlyn: Yeah.

It's so hard though. We're so not rewarded for that, in the 3D.

Heather: Right. And in the linear world, you know, yes. But I believe we can be rewarded.

caitlyn: Yes, we actually are. It's just like there's not, you know, the, the direct link is, uh, is, is less obvious, even though it totally exists. But yeah, it just requires faith, right? Like a lot of everything that we're talking about at the end of the day requires a degree of faith that it will work. That it can work.

And by work I

mean like that it will change, right? You will transform. Something that I think I get caught up on both as a coach and as like a, a coachee. Uh, and as someone who's like inside [00:44:00] of this world is like, I only want things to ever change for the better, right? Like, I put myself in coaching therapy, somatics, landmark because I was like, I am gonna have some degree of control over how this changes.

It's gonna transform in the way that I want it to, and over and over and over again. It has transformed in the way that I needed it to, but not in the way I wanted it to. And the funny thing about that is that I would never have done it if I had known that, right? Like I worked so hard to keep my marriage together an outrageous degree of energy.

So I've never worked harder at anything in my life. And you know.

I have a. Million subscriber YouTube channel and almost have a PhD. Like I've never worked harder at anything than I tried. Uh, and, and it was actually ironically all of the trying, eventually when I like surrendered that I had to control the outcome.

It was like so gentle and immediate and apparent that we were gonna split. Like we, I just had to get to the point where I was like, okay. I tried all the things. [00:45:00] What they're leading me to is a, I'm way happier and healthier and, more fulfilled as a person, and I'm more clear on what it is that I want and what is important to me.

What tremendous gifts those were. They also meant that the one thing that I thought I was trying on behalf of really had to transform in a way, in the one way that I wasn't willing to allow it to transform.

Heather: Yeah, that's that. I mean, that is profound. I think like that's it right there. Yeah.

caitlyn: Yeah, I'm, I'm very into, at this moment in my life, like real, like what it really means to surrender. I think I understood performative surrender, like what it looked like to surrender, right? I give it all up. I'm, I'm just here going at the flow or whatever, but inside I was like, only if it goes this way.

Heather: Right, right. Because this is definitely leading me in that direction, right?

caitlyn: Yeah,

exactly. I'm only doing this because it's going to get me the thing that I want. Whether that's, you know, like more success or more love or [00:46:00] you know, which, you know, those, we collapse those things anyways. Right. Uh.

Heather: I think mine is driven a lot by like less pain. How can I just feel great all the time? Yeah.

caitlyn: How could I just make everything fun all of the time? And then eventually you're like, it might just be okay if it wasn't like, maybe it's okay. Maybe actually what, what I can change is my level of okayness with something not being fun. And then I don't have to be out changing, controlling, and manipulating the whole world

Heather: Which is exhausting.

caitlyn: It's exhausting.

Heather: So exhausting. And it doesn't work.

caitlyn: Yeah, you're, it's not, not only is it exhausting, it's ineffective, and again, it's just a way that we like get off on thinking that we're controlling things.

Heather: God. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure I'll keep doing it even though I have this awareness, but I'm gonna catch myself more. And that's, that's the process,

caitlyn: Oh my God. I always say that like, it's actually, it's not that the patterns are not gonna repeat themselves. You're not solving the patterns like you, you, you are, the patterns are, are what you came to this lifetime with. This is your soul curriculum. I don't know?

why this pattern, but I, we, we anticipate that it's just gonna [00:47:00] ever go away.

But eventually you're gonna get So good,

at spotting it. That you're just gonna step out of the way when it comes by and it's just gonna war right? past you. Whereas before, maybe you spent four years getting wrapped up in it before you saw that, and then maybe two years and then three, and then eventually you're just like,

Heather: Yeah.

caitlyn: Nope.

Heather: Yeah. That's when things get easier actually. okay, so tell us about your Kickstarter. 'cause I do wanna hear more about this amazing device.

caitlyn: So what one thing we didn't talk about In terms of addressing dead bedrooms, If there is a lot of willingness and openness and like a lot of what we said didn't necessarily, uh, apply to your situation because it's the two of, you're just maybe like a little bit bored, you just haven't been, introducing novelty.

Into your bedroom, and therefore it's just not that like thrilling right now. this toy, this, this pleasure device is gonna be a great fit for you. And if you are, if you love sex toys, if you love novel experiences, or if you love music as a [00:48:00] whole, this is gonna be an

Heather: all of those things.

caitlyn: would, 11 out of 10 recommend this.

So just to give you a little bit of a backstory. I, uh, I'm a DJ and I've, I've loved music forever. Uh, dance music in part you asked me about my many careers. I also was doing research and working at nightclubs and music festivals on sexual assault and domestic violence prevention. That was a whole other career for me.

and I, I became really passionate about the idea of like dance floors and music as healing modalities, right.

Because I would often like leave the dance floor and feel like completely rinsed out, very somatic experience. Like, Oh

my God, it just feels so good right now. Like all my fears and worries have left and I can sleep and whatever.

I can approach work the next day and feel great. Anyway, I was masturbating once and I was using a vibrator and I was like, how come this thing just vibrates at like the frequency of Z? This is why this, you know, I understand why on like a, a motor level, but this is boring. And I thought to myself, there's all these like sulf tone and like the [00:49:00] frequency of love 400 and whatever, hertz.

And I don't have no idea what it actually is, but like why can't we? Vibrate a vibrator at this frequency, at like an intentional frequency, the frequency of love or the frequency of safety or the frequency of intuition or the frequency of the heart or the root shock or whatever. And so I sat on this for a little bit and eventually I pitched it to a friend, like through tears.

'cause I was just like, I want this to exist so bad. And he, he, he and I did some research together. We looked into the components to make that actually had just become a lot more accessible and cheaper and smaller. And so he made me a prototype and when I got my prototype I was trying like monks chanting ohm and all these different frequencies and this like kind of like spiritual music.

And then I was like, I'm gonna try WAP by Cardi B and Meghan, this stallion. 'cause it's the year that Wap out and I was like completely blown away. I was like, Oh,

my God, this is the healing right here. The monk chanting home was great. Cardi B saying, [00:50:00] I want you to hit that little dangly thing that's swinging the back of my throat, like was a legendary experience for me.

So fast forward, I decided not to go into production of this thing because it was, I didn't have any material or production experiences and I was too busy filming a TV show at the time. So I just kind of put on the back burner. October of 2023, I go to an event and someone's got something called like a musical vibrator experience on the schedule.

Turns out this guy, Michael and his, uh, former partner Elizabeth, had the same idea that.

I did. He happened to be an engineer, so he had more of the capacity to like build the thing in, in the physical, and I. Immediately, totally accosted him. Like pulled them aside, kind of cornered them, actually, not like my most consensual thing I've ever done, but cornered them and was like, we need to work together.

I wanna be a part of this team. I'm gonna be part of like, what brings this to the world? And they were like, who are you? And I, you know, was like, I'm a famous YouTuber, don't worry about it. I'm gonna help. Anyway, I [00:51:00] insisted. I insisted, I insisted. And here we are a year and a half later and they accepted me onto the team.

And I got to be involved in a lot of, uh, testing and prototyping and anyway. After all of that, almost two years of development and small group and individual testing and gathering feedback and reforming and reshaping and tweaking, uh, groove thing as it has come to be named, is about to be released on Kickstarter.

Heather: Okay.

caitlyn: Uh, I can't, I don't think I'm allowed to say the actual date for some reason, but let's just say that towards the end of June and throughout July, you should be able to locate Groove thing on Kickstarter. I'll also give you my link. It's try groove thing.com/caitlin.

Heather: Okay.

caitlyn: Uh, and if you would go and check that out and consider backing this project, you will get one of the very first models of Groove Thing.

You play it, play. I didn't even tell you what it does. It plays music. It doesn't, if you've ever tried a sound responsive vibrator, they go, Z, Z. To the beat, right? They're not actually playing music groove thing. [00:52:00] You take your phone, you hook up the speaker and the groove and groove thing itself to music, to your iCloud or to your, um, apple or to your Spotify or whatever.

If it works, uh, over Bluetooth. If you can play it over your Sonos, you can play it over your groove thing. Um, and it actually plate, like if you hold the, the, the puck, there's like a, a, a vaginal puck and an anal and a clitoral one. If you hold that up to your ear. You can hear the music. It like literally vibrates the music.

It resonates the music. It feels like the music is playing up your spine and at the top of your head, like it is one of the most pleasurable experiences. I think you can have. You have to try it. I have one at my house right now. You could absolutely try. I've been carrying this thing to everywhere that I go for a while.

If, if you're not very familiar and this is the part that I wanna land it on. If you have any degree of like, discomfort with sex toys, if you, if you don't like masturbating, if you don't like finding your way to orgasm, if [00:53:00] the whole idea is kinda like squeaky or weird or like a little bit uncomfortable to you, if your partner doesn't necessarily have a lot of familiarity with these, like music is a really, really safe and familiar and comfortable bridge to pleasure.

Heather: I love that

caitlyn: It, it's very, very transformative to allow your body to experience pleasure in this way. Your body also already feels music as vibration. So this is a very, like this, this is how our bodies experience music. Even how our ears experience music is just not, um, as tangible. Unless you're like, you know, at a festival standing in front of the loud speaker and you're like, hopefully you have your earplugs in and you're letting your whole body be vibrated.

It's a very intense experience. This is that on a very micro, very approachable. Very comforting level. So even if you are not a big. S*x enthusiast or pleasure enthusiast, or pleasure seeker as we are. Like, even if you just sort of feel like there's more access to pleasure [00:54:00] that is accessible, if you could just figure out the right door to walk through or the right way to approach it.

Uh, this is a really, this is a very, again, I wanted this originally for, for healing. I discovered that it was actually really pleasurable as like a entertainment and, and like, you know, a way of listening to music.

Heather: Yeah.

caitlyn: As a coach and as someone who, you know, coming back to the core of our conversation, like especially for, for, for cisgender women, creating spaces where we can like reclaim and experience our own pleasure and have sex for ourself, you can make yourself like a 45 minute playlist, go on a whole adventure, completely lose yourself like.

Come back and be like, whoa. I was just at, I was like transported to a totally different place where I was feeling and hearing and experiencing music. Maybe music that's especially emotionally resonant. The song you dance to at your wedding, the song that reminds you of your first partner, the song that like you baby making music, like whatever it is for you, right?

It's a really, really, really, um, unique [00:55:00] experience. It's hard to put into words. I recommend that you check out the Kickstarter, consider backing it and share it with somebody who would also get a kick out of it because, uh, I think it's, I think it's gonna be something that really changes, um, the landscape of, of like, pleasure for, for the folks who get to try it.

Heather: It's, it sounds really amazing and just like more sensory like we talked about, like the sensual type and just being embodied and it sounds just like a really good way to kind of help people with that while having a great time.

caitlyn: Yeah.

totally. So try groove thing.com/caitlin is the URL, and you can sign up for all of our updates there, no matter when our Kickstarter comes out. Or if you're listening to this years from now and our Kickstarter's already been funded and delivered still, go to try groove thing.com/caitlin.

Heather: I love that. That's awesome. And then if people are just like, Hey, Caitlin's, cool, how do I connect with her more? How can they find you?

caitlyn: You can find me on YouTube and@caitlinv.com. Caitlin is spelled C-A-I-T-L-I-N-V as in victorious. I've got 1000 pieces of [00:56:00] content uploaded on YouTube

Heather: Okay.

caitlyn: that you can check out for free, and then my website has courses and blog and, and free guides and downloads, and there's all kinds of ways to access my brain and my information, and please go check it out.

Heather: I love that. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here, Caitlin. This was an awesome discussion. Thank you everybody for listening, and we will catch you, uh, in a couple weeks on another episode of Ask a Sex Therapist. [00:57:00]