Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host Dr. G and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today we have a special guest from the UK, Mark Randall. Mark is an international specialist in crimes against animals and retired senior detective for the UK police. So thank you so much, Mark, for joining us today at the Junction. Hi. So, uh, to get started, can you tell us about your background, kind of, you know, where you started and how you ended up where you're at now?

Okay, I'll try and summarize it because I have a long policing career, but I spent, uh, I joined very young in the police and I started working with Uniform Patrol, um, and then I started working, I started moving on to undercover operations, covert, covert ops, drug work, narcotic work, intelligence operations, criminal analysis, and then, um, I, uh, Got a few promotions, and I started being responsible for serious crime and counterterrorism, and particularly international collaborations, so criminals and terrorists that were transiting around the world and looking at trying to preempt what they were doing. Looking mostly at that covert op, so undercover kind of work was probably my specialism overall. Um, I retired about 13 years ago and had the opportunity, I've always loved being around animals, I had the opportunity to actually transfer some of the skills I picked up over that policing career, um, to help animals and that's really what I've been doing for the last 13 years. I suppose because I've tended to have a, a global perspective on things, it's enabled me to look beyond, uh, certainly beyond the UK borders, beyond Europe, and I've had, I've been able to do work probably in about five different continents. So it's given me a great overview around the world, really, of what actually is very similar problems.

I see that in that a lot of people think that, you know, like our problems here in the U. S. are just our problems. And nobody realizes that animal crimes occur everywhere. There may be a little bit of a difference in the, the types of crimes or how they are, how they occur. But overall, I think that, I mean, there is a connection and we can all learn from each other. And as you have mentioned, some of these crimes do cross borders. So we have to, we have to take that into consideration, right?

Yeah, I mean, you've got, I mean, not, not every crime problem is the same, clearly, but there are shared, um, the way that crimes develop within communities, within society, are, they share the same pathways, um, and that happens from country to country, from crime type to crime type, to oversimplify that, if the problems are the same, then very often the solutions are the same, and therefore it's really important to learn from each other's experiences, um, as well as, as you say, there are actual crime problems that they cross borders anyway. And that's perhaps, you know, 20, 30 years ago, they physically had to cross borders. Now, of course, they could do that electronically. So you've got another level on top of what traditionally has been cross border crime. You've now got crimes which originate on the internet and can reach, you know, 100 countries in seconds. So tackling animal abuse or human abuse or any other crimes requires collaboration, but it also requires understanding what the motivation is and what's behind it to be able to share the solutions to stop animal and other crime.

So one of the main things that we that I want to talk with you is about the importance of the link between animal cruelty and interpersonal violence. I think that animal people that love animals are worried about the impact that the violence has on the animal, but we don't look beyond that. Uh, same thing, people that are concerned about human violence don't really comprehend the importance of those animals as sentinels or as the first part, the first step of, uh, of that violence, violent behavior. So can you explain to our listeners what is the link?

I suppose when, um, a lot of people grow up looking at, uh, crime and, uh, policing, law enforcement, perhaps through the media, watching Netflix, watching documentaries, and, and for them, a crime scene, uh, stereotypically is, uh, you know, a body laying on the ground with a knife in it, or gunshots And the numbers all around it, photographs taken, and that's a sort of stereotypical crime scene. But crime scenes are much, much wider than that. Um, so there could be a, you know, domestic abuse crime scene, for example, may involve child abuse, it may involve animal abuse. If you look at an animal abuse crime scene, it may well involve plenty of other things in relation to harm to children, harm to domestic survivors of human abuse and so. Those crimes, those crime scenes cross over between all sorts of types of, of criminality. Uh, traditionally in, in a lot of countries they've been separated, so responsibility and resources have been put into tackling human crime, as it should do, and animal crime is quite often left a little bit on the shelf as if it's somebody else's problem. Animal charities, uh, 501s, you know, different organizations pick up the pieces from, from animal crime. When actually, looking at it quite often, it's an indicator of what's been happening within a relationship, what's been happening within a family unit, or what's been happening within a community. That could be from The connection between domestic abuse and animal abuse, or it could be between dog fighting and serious crime within the community. So it's, or it could actually be, and one of the subjects I've done quite a lot of research into is animal sexual abuse. You know, the link between animal sexual abuse and child sexual abuse is very, very strong. So it's, it's, it's really important to... Whilst to consider a link, there is a link, it's to, we shouldn't be separating them in the first place, you know, a, a, a one crime type, uh, is very, very closely connected to another crime type, and, and actually, often it's the motivation of the perpetrator that, that matters, rather than what the technical crime is that that person has committed, why did they commit that crime, um, and, As opposed to what the species of their subject was at the end of the day. So that motivation, particularly if you want to stop it happening, you need to be looking at that motivation.

We were discussing that October is National Domestic Abuse Awareness Month and that is, uh, it is important to bring the awareness as far as not just the injury to the animals. Some people may think, well, this person is abusing the animal because they're just abusive. So just how they abuse the animal, they abuse the people, but I don't think a lot of individuals are aware of the aspect of control, the animals being used to control the at that time, a domestic violence victim.

Yes, I mean, animal abuse can be committed for a variety of different reasons, for a variety of different motivations. Um, one study that I looked at recently, um, was particularly relevant for me in that an animal brought into the home is far more likely to be abused than one which was originally in there in the first place. And I think that probably goes to the heart of what a domestic abuser does, in that they create, I'm generalizing a little bit here, of course, but they, they, they create a situation whereby they allow their victim to build a relationship with an animal which if you're in a domestic or a stressful situation could actually be far more important than if you're not in that situation. So they, so the abuser actually cultivates this relationship because of course they can then exploit that relationship. And because many abusers are so manipulative, they actually go to that length so they could potentially bring a puppy into the, or a dog or a cat into the family unit. So that their, um, their victim, um, builds that relationship because they rely on that, they need that comfort. Um, you know, another study shows that 70 percent of cat owners actually have cats because they feel lonely and they build that relationship. Um, the victim builds that relationship with the owner and therefore that makes it much easier for the perpetrator to exploit it to be able to then exert that pressure, that control. I wouldn't say domestic abuse is my, my understanding, it's, it's always about control, but it's certainly very, very relevant in there. Um, most of my understanding of how criminals and abusers operate comes from the undercover work that I used to do. Um, specifically I did some work with, uh, child sex offenders for a while. Um, I'm working within prisons and within, um, in, in society on, on how child sex abusers minds work. Um, not from a study perspective, but actually because I needed to infiltrate them to be able to tackle that kind of investigation. And, and I can see a lot of similarity in terms of the control and the, the, the deviousness, the, the, the planning that goes in to, to that. So I'd see it present within domestic abuse. I see it within a lot of animal abuse cases. And. To be able to understand how to tackle both of those types of crime, you need to understand how the perpetrators are thinking and what they're doing and put, putting actions in place to prevent that happening in the first place, or at least identifying it.

And some people there's a lot of victim blaming is how I see it. And it's like, why did you not get out? Why did you not do anything? Some people think that people that are victims of domestic violence are either uneducated. Or are not financially stable. And this is a problem that transcends, right? Like socioeconomic, racial, cultural, gender education. Like anybody can be a victim. Uh, in one of the classes that I'm currently taking, uh, there was a victim statement or a survivor statement because she is no longer in that situation. Where she was describing how she had a degree from Harvard, I believe. And she was doing really well. And this person that she loved just isolated her from everybody and then she she had an animal and then the abuse started and that's what became so difficult to get out So I think that it is very important for us to understand The, you know, kind of, kind of how, how things happen and to understand the struggles that people in those, in those situations are undergoing to better be able to help because another thing that I learned that was, I, I guess a little bit surprising was that 70 percent of the, at least in the United States, 70 percent of the injuries. Uh, serious injuries or even people that end up being killed is during that process of leaving.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you've had, um, I don't know, I mean, it's not my book, so I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about a book, but I don't know if you've ever read, um, Jane Monkton Smith's control book on dangerous relationships and how they end in murder, but it's a brilliant book that talks about the end stages of an abusive relationship turns into homicide. Um, and that's exa that's exactly it. There is... When I joined the police, uh, a senior detective, you know, spoke to me at one point and said every, you know, every domestic abuse case you need to be going to is potentially murder, and that's how you need to treat it. Um, and we know that... Victims will potentially stay in a family, in a domestic abuse relationship through up to 50 incidents, potentially, before they even leave. You know, I suppose if you've got, you know, if you've got money, if you've got a support network, you may leave more quickly. But if you've got pets, if you've got dependents, and pets are dependents, animals are dependents, you need, you know, you're going to be thinking, what happens with that? Because. You can't, you can't leave your dependents behind and leave that abusive situation. So what do you do? Where are you going to take that animal? What's your support network for that animal? Um, and if you do leave that animal behind, of course that's the lever that your perpetrator is potentially going to use to get you to return. So, that, uh, animal needs to be taken somewhere safe, foster care system, and permanently. Which then causes issues over property. I understand, understand those issues, but, um, That will be a, uh, a tool for the perpetrator to use to get you to go back again. So, it's important to understand that, uh, being able to leave the animal has to be possible. Knowing that the animal is going to be safe and it's looked after, and it won't be used by the perpetrator to, to get you to return, which potentially is then going to turn into, you know, more abuse and even a domestic homicide.

Yes, some of the statistics that they gave us is that the average um, victim takes about seven different Attempts to leave that relationship and, and it's always because also these, these abusers are very good at controlling and they're very good at charming their way back and the, and the spouse, the partner, and not always a woman, sometimes men can be also victims of, of domestic violence, it, they're looking for that original person, right? That the person that they fell in love with, they think that that person is still in there and they keep coming back. But it also brings us back to the importance of making sure that the animals are taken care of, because you cannot expect somebody to leave and leave their animals behind. Um, there are, there are several organizations here in the U. S. that are working at creating more co sheltering so that individuals can leave and bring their animals with them without that, that concern. Is that something that we are seeing, uh, more also in, in other countries?

I mean, in England and Wales, which obviously I've got the best knowledge of, there's two national projects. One specifically looks after dogs and one specifically looks after cats, but there are a number of smaller ones too, in local areas. Um, so we have a freedom project, which looks after, we'll take care of dogs, um, and a, um, the Paws Protect will look after cats, um, and of course they need to be taken nationally anyway, because a lot of dogs are recognisable, you can't just take them down the street, because the perpetrator will see them. Um, so they need to be, there needs to be an element of secrecy in relation to where you're actually going to keep the animals, but it's, it's critically important they exist. I know in Australia, in New South Wales, for example, um, Some of those are funded by the local government because of the need, um, The bottom line is you've gotta get victim survivors outta abusive situations. You've gotta get 'em for their own protection, but also because it's potentially gonna turn into a domestic homicide. You know, we, we don't want, we know the numbers of those and we know that coercive control is the type of domestic abuse behavior, which is most likely to lead to domestic homicide. So it's really important to be able to get them out. And so that's where investment can help so that at least people know that if they leave with their animal, They can take it somewhere. I did some training in, uh, in Italy a couple of years ago. And I went into a police station, um, and as part of the reception for, for victims that were leaving abusive situations, there was a facility there for young children, but there was also some very basic facility there for dogs and cats. So, you know, at three o'clock in the morning, if you need to get out, take two children with you. You can take your dog or cat to the police station and it'll be protected. Uh, that was quite a, uh, um, an enlightening moment for me. Um, you know, there are some really good processes around the world that can be shared. And the Italian project is a particularly good one.

And in the, in the topic of children, the children are not just being the victim of abuse, but living in those situations also increases the risk that those kids are going to grow up and become abusers themselves. Or, or even commit animal cruelty offences.

Yes, I mean, I, you know, children who witness animal cruelty are more than eight times more likely to be perpetrators themselves. Um, and I think something like 60 70 percent of animal cruelty in the home occurs in front of children. Domestic, expect, children who are abused to domestic abuse are three times more likely to exhibit cruelty to animals. And in fact, last month, The United Nations, uh, through General Comment 26, have, have actually recognized the impact of, uh, animal abuse committed in front of children. Um, I've been training in Ukraine for a number of years, before the war, particularly. They have a, in their criminal code, they have, um, extra jail time for offenders who actually commit animal abuse in front of children because they consider it so serious. The UK has just put it into its cruelty sentencing guidelines, the recognition of animal abuse committed in front of children. It's something which does seem to be gathering momentum in a number of countries around the world.

I think here it's that's being recognized in things like dogfighting, whereas it's a felony if you bring a child to a dogfight. Right. Um, so, uh, kind of switching track a little bit. I know that you have done some work with dogfighting, both locally and globally. So can you explain to us a little bit of your work with dogfighting and the importance of the dogfighting with human crimes with other crimes?

Yeah, I mean, I started, in fact, dogfighting was the, the, um, the crime, really, that got me to, uh, understanding why animal abuse really happens in isolation. And I was, I don't know, sometime in the 1990s, I was looking at a gunrunning team, uh, who were running guns around the UK, um, but they were also dogfighters. But the way that our structures worked, um, worked, police didn't look at dogfighting, and so I ignored it, and as a result, we didn't tackle that organized crime gang. And, uh, I found that frustrating, is that we failed because we, we failed to look at dogfighting. So, in, in, from about 2013, but particularly from 2016, I started looking at global dogfighting. Uh, most of my work at that time was looking in the Balkans, in Greece, and in Bulgaria, and other places in Eastern Europe. And it was looking at the links between organized crime and dogfighting. And, uh, specifically we looked at, A gang operating out of Bulgaria who were shipping fighting dogs to about 50 different countries around the world. Uh, and one area they were working on was in Greece, where the, having briefed the Hellenic police in Greece, they did a number of raids and made arrests of crime gangs who were running protection rackets around the seaports. Uh, and they were also dogfighters. So... Investigating that dogfighting properly allowed them to be able to take down organized crime gangs, seize cash, seize guns and, and prevent people from being threatened in their community. So, it just shows really that if tackling dogfighting is important anyway from an animal welfare perspective. But if serious, if those responsible for serious and organized crime work take dogfighting seriously, they can actually use it as a, as an opportunity to find a different angle into their organized crime gangs.

I had my first. experience working with dog fighting last year. Uh, I was able to go, and it, the case is still in progress, so I cannot talk too much about it. But, it was a very interesting perspective as far as going to the, going to the location, seeing how the animals are being taken care of, or not taken care of. Um, but then more importantly, all the other things that were associated with it. There were guns, there were drugs, there was money. And in some of these, there's human trafficking, uh, child pornography and all of these other crimes. So just again, how that link between the animal violence and the, and the human issues are occurring.

I think for me, um, the main answer is to be keeping an open mind and police officers. particularly should be doing that anyway. So when they turn up at, you know, I started the conversation talking about crime scenes. Um, if you talk, turn up at an animal crime scene, a human crime scene, it's considering that it may well include all types of crime. Um, and therefore you talk to, you know, you look at dog fighting. It's interesting to talk about child pornography because that's something which has featured certainly in an investigation in Spain that Um, and in a couple of other areas, and the other thing that does seem to pop up every now and again is radical extremism and dogfighting. So, it could well link to, uh, to terrorism. I mean, there's a particular case of the link. That happened actually, um, in New Jersey, I don't know if you're aware of the case in New Jersey where police were called to a, a dog that had been stabbed, um, and when they looked at the dog that had been stabbed, they actually asked the question, you know, what's the motivation behind this? What they identified was a radical, uh, an individual who'd been radicalized into Islam and had, uh, built a pressure cooker bomb which was destined for New York City. So by investigating that stabbed dog, and the dog was fine at the end of it, I understand, by investigating that professionally and properly, they actually managed to deal with a terrorism case. And for me, that's one of the most sort of extreme examples of the link of between animal and human abuse, but also why you should deal with animal cases professionally, looking at motivation, looking at the crime scenes.

you brought up earlier as far as the animal sexual abuse and why it is important to, um, to investigate these cases. I have had the opportunity to work with a couple of cases, and what has been the most frustrating for me as a forensic veterinarian is the the lack of understanding of some prosecutors, some attorneys, to I guess to take the word of the veterinarian in saying these are the signs that we're seeing this is what we believe happened and then trying to prosecute it not understanding the concerns with with children and that and that's one of the things that I would like to see is animal. sexual abuse being part of like the sexual offender registry, because I think that there is, you know, it would be important, uh, from what research I found is that at least about 30 percent of Individuals that commit sexual crimes against animals are likely to commit a sexual crime against a child. It's still a defenseless victim. It's still, you know, an innocent victim. Are there such registries in the UK and are animal sexual crimes taken more seriously than here?

Sadly, no. They, um, I mean, sexual crimes, um, The jail sentences for animal sexual crimes, specifically, and they're very, very limited, what constitutes an animal sexual crime in the UK, um, uh, is less than it is for animal abuse, the maximum jail sentence, which is a shame. Um, we have a piece of legislation which looks at, um, Child Abuse Online and Animal Sexual Abuse Online and over, over a year I looked at those and 73 percent of the cases where Child Abuse Online was, was found, Animal Sexual Abuse was found, and that seems to be a common theme. Um, there's a recent case in Australia which many, uh, listeners may have seen, uh, in relation to the Crocodile Guy. I'm not going to give him satisfaction in talking about his name. of online abuse, um, which is, is not a one off, sadly. It's happened. I mean, of course, it's not a one off because he was linked into the Telegram channel. Uh, I did a case in Ukraine where on the VKontakte channel based in Russia, there was a, um, there was another case of a 24 year old that was killing animals, um, and broadcasting it online. And of course, there's only a benefit doing that if people are watching it. So there's a, there's a huge network out there which needs to be dealt with. So, it doesn't happen, um, animal sexual abuse offenders do not get put on a sex offenders register in the UK. Uh, the legislation is quite complicated, but, um, we have, there's 105 offences in, in England and Wales. which could allow a person to be put on a sex offender's register effectively. One of those is assaulting a person in charge of a shipwreck, whereas animal abuse is not on there. That's how crazy the law is. Um, and uh, there's not many people convicted of assaulting someone in charge of a shipwreck anymore. That's an old piece of legislation. So, that needs to be put on there. But also for me, it's about the motivation of the person doing it because we had a case, there was a case in the UK which came to court, uh, a couple of weeks ago, where an individual had been convicted of strangling a horse and slashing it with a knife. Um, now that's an animal welfare offence. They were convicted of an animal welfare offence. The motivation behind what happened was never uncovered. But for me, That is shouting out that that's a sexual offence, that individual is a very dangerous individual, that needs to be at least subject to some kind of psychological assessment and monitoring. It may well be they've got another motivation, but we should be proactive in preventing, in protecting public children and animals. And, and, uh, definitely not all animal abuse offenders potentially need to go onto a sex offenders register, but certainly those where either there is Sexual intent or, or, yeah, when there is some kind of sexual intent, there needs to be some kind of referral, I think.

As I was, as I was looking into, into the topic, I found that, you know, not, not every state in the United States considers, animal sexual crimes, or bestiality, uh, crime. Um, the majority does, but not all of them. And then of the ones that do, about half consider it a minor crime, a misdemeanor, and then the other half consider it a major crime or a felony. Uh, and it, it's just interesting to, to see just the, that grayscale where one state may just... Again, consider it a minor crime and no big deal, but yet another state may think that it is enough to be a major crime. Um, they, they understand the, the relationship of it. Here in Ohio, where I'm at, it is considered a misdemeanor. So the, for, for it to ever become something in a sexual registry is unlikely because we don't even consider it that big an offense. Um, but, but then, at least we, it does give us the opportunity to charge two separate crimes, because then it becomes separate from the animal cruelty side of it. Um, so if the animal is actually harmed in the process, then they may have animal cruelty in addition to the, to the sex crime.

Yeah, I mean, for me, when you, even if you take the opinion that animal sexual abuse is not a serious crime, it's what it indicates to me, That, that, that should be being, should be featuring on terms of safe, safety protection programs, whatever. I, it's, you know, I keep saying that animal crime rarely happens in isolation. I think it's extremely unlikely that somebody who sexually abuses an animal for the rest of their day, for the rest of their life, is a law abiding citizen. They don't, they're not involved in domestic abuse. They're not involved in, uh, cyber abuse. They're not online, you know, downloading child abuse images. They're just... But it gives you an opportunity to look into that crime further and to look into that person's offending or into that community, what's happening. And of course community, and I touched on this earlier on, a community traditionally was, you know, a village, a town, a city of people. Now your community is a, is an online community. It gives you an opportunity to have a look at that to protect the public. I mean, England and Wales again have got a um, a new piece of legislation which has finally got through parliament and is just waiting for royal, royal assent at the moment. Um, an online safety bill which is in theory is there to protect people from what's happening on, on, online. Now animal abuse is included within that which is a really, really positive step. So it's, it's, we're still trying to iron out what that's going to look like but in theory people who are posting animal abuse online or platforms that are doing it will be liable. Uh, in the UK, criminally liable. So, there is pro there's really good progress around the world in a lot of areas. I'm, you know, people ask me, you know, do you get a bit depressed dealing with this? Because it, it's constant. There's so many problems, so many issues. But there is also some really, really good progress. It's amazing people working within animal welfare. At a very professional level and um, I'm very, very hopeful about it because there's some good things happening.

I think that, I do agree that we are moving forward. You know, I get asked that question as well, as far as how can you see these horrible cases and then still smile? I, uh, I was a guest. Uh, instructor at a class and one of the students said, you know, you just showed us all these horrible things that humans do to animals and yet you're here and you're standing up and you're smiling and you kind of have to have that forward perspective as far as I'm helping this right now and I am making, you know, the world a little bit better and it's Unfortunately, it is going to, to keep going for a bit, but I think that the more we work together, the better the chances of, um, of making an impact, not just locally, but globally.

I often get asked, you know, how do I deal with looking at animal abuse images and how do I deal with that? And it's, it's... Now everybody has to have their own coping mechanism of what they deal with, and I suppose I learned mine when doing sort of undercover work with child sex offenders. You know, how I deal with it is I don't look at things I don't need to look at. When I do need to look at something, I only look at it from the perspective that I need to look at it from. So if I'm looking at a dogfighting case, I don't necessarily might, you know, I might not need to see what the injuries are. What I'm trying to identify is who the people are involved in it, so I can actually look at it slightly differently. Um, obviously a veterinarian, if you're a forensic veterinarian, you might need to look at the specific injuries. But it's actually not exposing yourself to stuff that, um, you don't need to look at, you don't need to be involved in. You know, if I could go through my various timelines, there's all sorts of stuff that goes on there. Um, I was recently contacted about a case that originated in China of online animal abuse, and they sent, wanted to send me all the images, and I'm thinking, I don't need to know that, why do I need to see these images? I, I know what animal cruelty looks like, what I need to identify. is where is it happening, who are the agencies who are likely to deal with it, you know, what evidence is there, how have you collected your evidence, so that the case can be presented in the right way. I don't need to look at, you know, a cat being killed, because I know what a cat being killed looks like. That way I can reduce the impact, I think, to myself, but everybody has their own, has to develop their own coping mechanism in relation to that. Um, as an undercover officer, I used to have, like, psychological assessments on a, on a regular basis. Um, the animal welfare world doesn't do that, but it's good to talk, it's good to share experiences, it's good to help each other through this, I think.

Yeah, the way that I, that I personally cope with it is I see... I, I see it as evidence, right? I try to have a very objective perspective about it so that when I'm looking, you know, if I'm looking at a, at a cadaver, to me, it's evidence, it's, it's bones, it's tissue, it's information to be able to catch the perpetrator. Um, I. I try not to dwell on the actual the actual suffering that occurred. I know that there was suffering. I know that there was injury. I know that there was pain, but I try not to internalize that because then one case and you're done. Um, you know, I worked with the Humane Society of the United States and one of the things that they are very good about is offering that kind of emotional support for the individuals because you have also a lot of different people, everybody from people that are trained and have worked in the field for many, many years to volunteers that perhaps this is their first exposure to something like that. And it can be very impactful. People are in those, in those positions because they love animals. And clearly if you love animals, you have that degree of empathy and you don't want anything bad to happen to them. And then all of a sudden you're in a case where all these animals are either starved or beaten or injured. And it does become very difficult, very emotionally taxing. So that's how, that's kind of how I see it.

It's, it's one of the areas that I've first noticed really transiting from policing into animal welfare, the animal welfare world is that police officers, uh, are good at looking at things evidentially. Animal welfare representatives tend to be a little bit more emotional about what's happening. And I get where that comes from. And sometimes that can cause a conflict between. when handing evidence over of a case where somebody who is emotionally attached cannot understand why a case doesn't go to court, why there's not successful prosecution, why something goes wrong. And therefore I think it's It's incumbent on both sides to really understand, uh, how the other operates. So, you know, I, I, I have trained a lot of animal welfare groups around the world on, on, you know, the laws of evidence, that, that this is how you need to present your evidence if you're going to take it to the, to the court, to a police officer. You know, if you go, Shouting and, and thumping your fist and swearing and calling our police officers corrupt and they don't deal with the case properly, you're probably not going to get a good outcome. Likewise, if you're a police officer and you think of anybody who deals with animals as an extremist or radical or, or has this warped view of life, then you're not going to be a very good protector of society. And so, you kind of need to work together and where you've got, in Greece where I did quite a lot of work, You know, they'll form groups where they've got, you know, local police officers, local veterinarians and animal groups working in partnership. And as a result, they keep their community safer because they deal with animal cases, human cases, they communicate with each other, they understand each other's needs. And if you're working in a small town, a small area, that can work. Nationally, you'll see they need national arrangements to be able to understand each other. But at the end of the day, we all want to achieve the same thing. You know, we all want to make society safer for people and animals. That's where it comes from.

Here, here in Ohio, um, animal control officers and humane officers are the ones that primarily investigate the animal crimes. And I just recently did a, did a class, an online class. Because, as a forensic veterinarian, I receive requests from these animal control officers to help them investigate things, and many times after the fact, so already they have gathered the evidence, they have done everything, but there is so much emotional uh, Um, so much emotion in the case that when they walk into a animal crime scene, their first concern is I got to get this dog out of here. I got to get this cat out of here. So they go in and they don't understand evidence, right? Animals as evidence of a crime. So we had to to discuss proper Procedure in gathering evidence, you walk into the house, you see an animal that is in pain and it's in discomfort. You don't just go running and take it out, right? We have to stop. We have to think about it. We have to take pictures. We have to document because as much as we want to prosecute the people, the, the perpetrators of these crimes. We are just blowing the case if we are mismanaging the, the evidence and in the end, if we don't manage the evidence properly, what can potentially happen is that animal that we just rescued goes back to that person. So, part of what you do is doing this evaluation and then assessment and then investigation and prosecution. So how does your work do? Like, can you walk us through through some of the cases that you have that you have done?

You know, most of my case is now about training, because, uh, going from policing cases, which may be about human trafficking, or I don't know, bomb factories, so that would be the kind of cases that I was dealing with within policing, um, which some of them would take years to be able to investigate. A lot of the cases that I started doing when I was in, um, when I came out of policing was actually for media, rather than for Um, for prosecutions, because the standard of proof is different and, and what your objective is, is, uh, what your objectives are looking for is slightly different. So you may well not be looking for prosecution, but what you're looking for is substantive evidence to be able to show that case on a, on like a documentary. So I did a dogfighting case, particularly with the BBC, so we had to work with the, documentary case, um, where we're looking at global dog fighting. So, um, with that one, we had to make sure that, um, you know, we'd evidence that the links between, um, the different countries, the different individuals would actually proven who they were through social media. Um, so that the case was watertight from a, from a legal perspective to be able shown on air. Prosecutions actually through the court system is something I, I haven't done now for a number of years because I've been busy working in other countries training about it. Um, and it varies from country to country but essentially what you're saying there about crime scenes is where I, I mostly did, did my training work in that. If it's a, if it's a multiple homicide, clearly you're going to treat a crime scene, you're going to throw everything at the crime scene, you're going to, um, look at the videos, recording it correctly, um, seizing everything there, who are your witnesses, you know, um, who are your key witnesses, who are your suspects, but actually a minor animal, a minor, uh, animal crime, and I use that term loosely. Requires the same, exactly the same processes. So you still need to be looking at what is your crime scene? How are you going to safeguard your crime scene? Bear in mind the resources that you've got, you know, you're not going to have a whole CSI team out there. You're not going to have, you may well just have a, might be pouring a rain and you might have a. you know, a piece of a plastic box that you can cover the animal with. So be pragmatic about what you've got. Um, uh, one example we had, I was training in, um, uh, the municipal headquarters of the local government in Kiev, in Ukraine, and we were doing animal crime scenes. And, uh, We had designated this thoroughfare as an animal crime scene and we blocked off all the senior officials in Kiev and Ukraine from walking down this corridor because we'd got a stuffed animal in the middle of the, in the middle of the, the, uh, the room. Um, and it was fascinating to see these really high ranking, uh, police officers and government officials having to walk all the way around the room just to be able to protect that animal crime scene. The training that I really give is based upon transmitting what I've done within human crime scenes, whether it's a bomb factory or a human trafficking crime scene, onto the animal world and giving it exactly the same level of consideration and thought processes, albeit realistically, you may or may not have access to the same resources, so you've got to think a little bit more pragmatically. Does that help? It's a little bit of a roundabout answer there.

Yeah, no, no, absolutely. Um, I, I recently, well, I'm still in progress of doing, uh, taking education through University of Florida and Forensic Sciences, because I think that there is a little bit of a disconnect within, between the capabilities in human crimes and the capabilities in animal crimes. So part of what What I hope to gain from that education is kind of how we can use some of the knowledge that we have that we use in human criminology into animals. So I have used, for instance, entomology. I've used insects to try to determine time of death, just to prove timelines that A suspect is given us to show that. No, you said that this animal has only been dead for a few days. This animal actually based on insects based on all the other information has been dead for for a lot longer. So I think that there's definitely room as we understand the importance of the link and we take animal crimes more seriously, we can start utilizing some of the knowledge that we have for human crimes into animal crimes.

I've got a friend who is the professor at the University of Bedford Forensic Department in the UK. And they are doing some excellent work, so I may need to put you in contact with each other to talk to, uh, to Samantha about this, because she's got some, some excellent ideas. It's beyond, it's beyond my skill level. Um, but you talk about entomology, I mean, I'm blown away with what they're doing in relation to animal crime scenes, so I'll definitely put you in contact with her.

That would be, that would be amazing. I'm always looking to learn more because there's just so much opportunity out there to do better. And I mean, it's just, you know, we get too caught up on, well, it costs too much money. Well, but there are ways of, of getting, of getting things done and some of these resources already exist. So it's just kind of figuring out how to, how to source the existing resources so that we can help both.

Yeah. I mean, one of the big. One of the big statements that always come back to me is that, you know, we don't have the resources for this. We don't have the money for this. The approach is the same as I used to take when, when I worked in the intelligence field, there was always a, um, a willingness to try and, or a desire to try and cut intelligence resources. When actually, when you've got, when you're struggling for money, when, when, uh, you know, everybody's struggling for money right now, whether it's at national or, or, or local level. You want intelligence because you want people to highlight where the subjects are at that point. You don't want to be cutting what, those areas that are actually talking about crime prevention. And tackling animal abuse properly is never extra work. It's, it's an opportunity to be able to reduce the amount of crime, which actually is going to save money in the long run. There was, um, another case I can talk about in terms of the link, uh, in, in Ukraine again. Uh, in 2007, there were three young men who... Uh, started capturing and killing street animals, tying them up, um, and, and hanging them from trees. Um, and very, very quickly they transitioned into vulnerable adults and they started committing them using the same mode of soprandi as they were. And they committed 21 murders, no attempted murders over a period of a few months in that time. Um, when that was investigated, I understand it took 2, 000 police officers to investigate it. That's a lot of policing resource. Um, I mean, it's horrific that, you know, 21 murders anyway. But if we had caught, or if those youngsters had been caught early, we'd have saved, all that money would have been saved later on. So crime prevention is, is critical in understanding the role that animals play within families and relationships and communities. It is really important to turn to crime prevention and costing less for the country and in the first place.

So you've been discussing about your work with Ukraine. So how has that changed? How, what was your work with Ukraine before and now? Um, I imagine that the struggles and the needs of the animals and the people have changed since the war.

The Nature Watch Foundation started working in Ukraine, uh, in 1994, three years after Ukraine's independence from the Soviet Union. And, um, that was mainly about animal, um, That stray animal management, I guess, is where it came from, but also looking at the zoo and other areas. I began working in 2018 there when I was training police officers and animal groups um, about taking animal crime seriously, responsible dog ownership, you know, looking at legislation and working with animal groups and municipalities. And before the war, I managed to get to sort of 13 cities from Lviv in the west out to Kharkiv in the east, where I would spend a day with police officers going through animal crime scenes and talking to them about the relevance of dealing with it. But I was also talking to police officers about the importance of Within, um, public relations, within their community, and taking animal welfare and animal crime seriously. And, you know, when they rescue and when the, because the patrol police officers were there were coming from a time of militia of the former Soviet Union, and it's being a modern police service. And it was really important that they were seen as approachable individuals. They've got a really school, good school program there, so. Leaning with police officers to say that, you know, when you're rescuing animals, when you, when you save them, tell the public what you're doing, you know, explain why it's important to save them, because then you'll be seen as a far more approachable police service. Um, you'll be seen as one that, if you're a victim of, you know, sexual abuse, domestic abuse, any kind of crime, You're far more likely to report that to a police officer that you've seen has got empathy, some kind of compassion, and it builds the credibility of the police service. And the long term effect is that, you know, overall crime and overall violence will reduce. So that's where I was. from 2018 until 2022 when the, when this section of the war started, um, and obviously massively changed. Um, uh, it's a bit difficult to know where to start really, but stray animal management has been horrendous because, you know, shelters have been destroyed. Shelters have been blown apart. People have left dogs. They've abandoned dogs. Dogs have been into the streets. Cat population has grown out of control. Um, initially zoos were being hit, um, and animals were, were escaping. Um, stray animal management was a huge issue and there's also a bit of a rabies issue in Ukraine. Um, so we've been working and it's again, it has to be in partnership. So working with groups like Eurogroup for animals and others to be able to develop a strategy. And then, um, that, that. We'll spay and neuter, we'll keep on top of the spay neuter work so that the populations don't go out of control. I mean, they are out of control, but there is pro, there are programs in place, but there's also getting aid out there for the rescues, you know, shipping, uh, food, medical supplies out from Poland and Romania to Ukraine. So it's been a, um, a huge project and my training or the police training, you know, I haven't been able to train the police because I've been busy doing other things, but it's carried on, you know, because I was working with lawyers, the lawyers are now carrying on with the training. So we need to keep that going. And I think that one of the things that people potentially would have seen certainly in the early days of the war is images of Ukrainians looking after their animals, caring for their animals, recognizing that. In times of war, in times of stress, the animal human bond is critically important, um, that they are a member of the family, uh, and hopefully the Nature Watch Foundation program has been a little part of that in terms of looking at general animal welfare throughout the country.

So what is, what is the, uh, Nature Watch Foundation as far as the missions and goals?

So the main thing is about advancing animal welfare around the world. So Nature Watch Foundation, um, started just over 30 years ago, a small animal charity. So that's a 501 in the US and it's, um, based in, in the west part of the UK, but it's responsible for puppy farming, for campaigning against animal testing, um, for wildlife crimes and a number of other areas, but it's also responsible for World Animal Day, um, and looks after World Animal Day. Uh, 4th of October every year for those that don't know. Um, exciting new website this year, worldanimalday. org, where you can go on there and you can upload all the different things that you've been doing for World Animal Day, learn from other people around the, uh, the world. I know there's an organization doing, uh, stray animal management in Greece. They've done a big project on there. Um, so if you want to learn about how to manage stray animals in your particular area, have a look at that. So World Animal Day is a really, really big thing every year, obviously, around, uh, all different countries of the world, and Nature Watch Foundation manages that. So, big, diverse portfolio, um, there's only about half a dozen to ten people working for Nature Watch Foundation, but it does, uh, it does great work. And I'm proud to have been a part of it for the last few years.

One of the things that I saw on the website was about the concept of animals as sentient beings and Here we have that that issue where animals are property and I don't our animals consider property in the UK

it varies I mean the Sentience legislation passed last year, and in theory it's supposed to, um, it's supposed to permeate through all types of legislation, but that's still very early days at the moment. I mean, cats, for example, are still part of criminal, you know, part of property, so. Uh, you hurt a cat, you're more likely to prosecute you for criminal damage than you are for abuse because it's property. So, yeah, property is still an issue. I mean, it's, it's, in theory, sentience is, it's, it's supposed to go through all of our legislation, but, uh, I think it'll take a while before that changes, but again, it's a good bit of progress.

Yeah, no, it's, it's amazing. Progress because we see, we see issues here where, uh, yeah, as you said, if an animal gets injured, then it's just property. It's what's the value of your property. And then that's how it's managed in the courts. Um, and it's interesting to, to look at it from a concept of property when there are. Laws against crimes against animals. So it's illegal to injure an animal to commit cruelty against animals. But then if something happens, as far as the pet owner is concerned, it's just a piece of property. One of the things that we had been discussing in, in my classes, it's about the concept of living property. And kind of. You know, the, the idea between welfare and rights, um, just because a lot of people, like we want to see rights for animals, but perhaps the concept of welfare, it's a little bit easier to, to get people to, to follow or buy into.

Yeah, I think Spain this, this, uh, last month, potentially the new legislation came out in Spain, which is quite good in terms of animal sentience as well. Um, there's some good progress there. I mean, the difficulty with the Spanish legislation is it doesn't apply to hunting dogs. It doesn't apply to bullfighting. Um, so there's quite often exemptions in Europe with the sentence legislation in terms of... Exclusions of, um, animals for potentially political reasons, maybe. Um, so, it's good, but it should be, and then, of course, you've got, you know, animal testing, you've got, um, farm animals. As soon as you start moving into other areas, it becomes a lot more complex in terms of sentience. Um, a lot of those, um, uh, debates, again, are perhaps too complex for me. I've, you know, I'm an old detective. I tend to look at things this way, but it certainly does open some doors and some thinking in terms of. where we should be with all animals and not just companion animals.

And you talk about, uh, animal farming. I am assuming that that's basically what we consider puppy mills. Would that be correct, right? Like just a overbreeding of

animals? Yeah, um, absolutely. I mean, there are, um, puppy mills in Eastern Europe, puppy mills in Ireland, puppy mills in Wales, um, feeding a market of effectively designer dogs. Um, one of the things that Nature Watch Foundation exposed in the last year was, um, canine fertility clinics where, uh, In the kitchen, effectively, people were building designer dogs using fertility clinics. Um, they weren't veterinarians, they were lay individuals. And the Edgewatch Foundation did some great work on that. Um, and at the end of it, there's a desire for designer dogs. And that's when there's a market, if you look at the narcotic market or anything, it's all the fur industry. If there is a market for it, criminals and certain individuals will exploit that and will look to feed it. So, you know, French Bulldogs as a case in point at the moment, uh, they were, I don't know what you'd know, the pricing at the moment, 10, 000, 10, know, I mean, crazy money that people will pay for a dog that they've seen and influenced to use on social media, that they want that particular dog, they want it now, they don't want to spend some time looking at... The best dog and they won't go to the rescue, which is where they should be going to get a dog, but that's another point. Um, they want that dog there and then, um, you know, people will spend a lot more time looking for, you know, what TV they're going to have, which phone they're going to have than they will, which dog they're going to have and they're going to, you know, most phones are on a three year contract. Dogs are on a 10 to 14 year contract. You're spending a lot more time looking for a, uh, your dog than you should, which, you know. Which level of iPhone you want, really.

And one, one, uh, wording that I saw on the website that I really, really liked is that it, you guys called it greed breeding. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, go ahead.

No, I mean, it is, it's not my campaign, the greed breeding one. I think it's a great terminology. It's this concept of... Of, of wanting, wanting something designer rather than a dog that actually needs some love and companionship and looking after really.

Yeah, the problem that we're seeing here with the designer breeds is a lot of the backyard breeders, right? The people that are just taking it, as you said, like just at home, taking it into their own hands, creating these breeds and then selling them to consumers that just want to just, they just hear what they want to hear. It's like, okay, this is what I'm looking for. Oh yeah, this is what I have. I mean, a doodle is a doodle. All these poodle mixes kind of look the same when they're puppies and people are getting them thinking that they're something and it's just in the, in the end, a crossbred with a very high, uh, price tag. Right. It's just consumer, I guess, consumer fraud.

Yeah, I mean, I was in the US a couple of years ago, actually, and I saw, uh, uh, there were two trucks pulled up in a lay by, and, um, someone got a dog out, you know, a puppy out the back of one, and, uh, you know exactly what's happening there. And it's, it's so frustrating that, that we wouldn't do that with something else. You, you wouldn't have any other... I mean, they're not property anyway, but even if they were property animals, that's not how you should be buying property, is it? You know there's something wrong if that's how you're getting your animal. And I kind of understand there's also a situation where, once you've gone past that point, and you kind of know that it's come from a puppy farm or a puppy mill, that you then think, oh well, at least I'm helping it, at least I'm rescuing it, but actually, you know... You're part of the problem. I mean, I did some, a little bit of work earlier this year with um, um, there's a, there's a really good film called Slay, uh, which is about the fur trade, um, it's a documentary which is available on, on line, and it's really good to have a look at. Um, I'm not into fashion myself particularly, but there's um, one of the phrases in there which is quite good, and there was a, a model in there saying that. You know, your next purchase is the most important one and it's something which resonated with me is that if you've already bought a designer dog, if you've already been down that route, then okay, love it, look after it, care for it, get a veterinarian, everything you need to do. The next time you get a dog, think slightly differently. I don't, we don't want to prejudge those that have. either done it because they didn't understand or because they did intend to do a good job or You know, they've now learned that dog's from a puppy mill I don't think we should be judging anybody who's in that route But next time you buy a dog just think slightly differently about it. Look, um, uh, because They won't exist puppy mills puppy farms won't exist if you stop that market Because that they can't they're going to do something else. They're criminals. They they find opportunities if there's weak legislation if there's weak enforcement. If there's a market, they'll go down that route. And if there isn't, they'll go and ship, I don't know, illegal vapes or something or other they'll get from somewhere because they don't care what the product is. They just want to make money out of it.

Right. If you decrease the demand, you have to by, by extent, decrease the supply, right? The supply dwindles. Um, yesterday. One of the rescues that, that we work with, I, I run a spay neuter clinic and we were at a shelter doing surgeries and there was this man that surrendered five dogs up to the shelter because he said that nobody was buying. So he couldn't get rid of them. So he just gave them to the shelter. And, you know, it, it's sad for those dogs to end up in a shelter because they're kind of unwanted, but that's what, that's what ends up happening, perhaps this man is going to not breed or not breed as much because the demand is not as high. So we, as consumers, we have the power to control all these issues with, with puppy mills. I know that one of the concerns that rescues that. That get animals from these puppy mills is that if they do something to complain to the, uh, here, the, the USDA is in charge of managing the high volume breeders that if you may complain, nothing's going to happen. Um, and, and sadly, it is true. There's a lot of investigations that they will find that some of these. high volume breeders are breaking the law and not taking proper care of these animals, but nothing really ends up happening. Is that what your experience is as well? Or are high volume breeders, when they, when they break the law in animal welfare or animal care, does, does something happen to them?

I'm sure that those that that are charged with investigating puppy mills, puppy farms in, in the UK are very competent investigators. I think that the difficulty that I have from an ex policing background is that we shouldn't be treating them any differently. If you've got serious and organized crime, you need to tackle it at all different levels. You need to be taken out. There's almost a model that you put in place to dismantle organized crime. Um, And that's the same from country to country. Well, when you're tackling a puppy mill, you just need to use the same model. And you've got to deal with every level professionally. So, you know, that's reducing demand, that's cutting off the supply chains, that's looking at the routes that it's getting to market, it's looking at the finances, the tax evasion, the other crimes that are connected to it. Um, it's, uh, uh, the information campaigns, it's, there's a number of different things that you need to target, um, to be able to take down whatever organized crime it is, and puppy farms should fit into that same category. That's the same country to country, it's the same area to area, but we still kind of don't learn from that, I don't think. And. Different people are responsible. I mean, we've got so many different agencies in the UK responsible for tackling things. I mean, to not make mistakes, you've got to have an incredibly good information exchange flow, and that's quite often where things go wrong, when you're not sharing information, you're not working in partnership, you're not, uh, you're not working together to tackle things. That's changed a lot over my policing career, and then latterly, really, in terms of understanding that Uh, if you really want to tackle crime, you have to work on it together. And that's not just police officers, that's members of the public, it's local organizations, governments, um, you know, tax officers. It's just everybody needs to work together to achieve the same goals, really. To me,

it's frustrating because I see... I see similarities between animal hoarders and puppy mills, right? They're both not giving them enough resources, not giving enough cares, but then animal hoarding is a crime and puppy mills is much more different. And to me, the, the main difference between the two is that animal hoarders are not supplying, are not improving the finances or the economics of the, of the area of the town. So as soon as we. put more, put more weight into the animal welfare and less into the money that these puppy farms are creating, then perhaps we're going to be able to move forward.

Yeah, I mean, animal hoarding is a sort of a whole other issue, really. I know, certainly in Eastern Europe, there's a very fine line between animal hoarders and animal rescues. Um, I went to a training session, uh, out there and it was like talking to people about how many animals they've got. And lady said, I've got 236 dogs. And I'm okay. I think you've got a problem. I don't think you've got an animal rescue. I think you've got an issue. Um, so, um, there is, there is a fine line there, and it, it, when, when you're in, uh, I'd say poorer countries, those with, with lower animal welfare standards, the animal hoarding, animal rescue becomes a very, very fine line.

Yes, I was, uh, recently in Mexico. And there's a huge overpopulation problem. Plus there's a lot of problem with like the, uh, street dogs, something that here we don't see because dogs in the street get picked up, but there it's normal to see it. And I saw, I saw many of the people that were coming to these talks that I was part of complaining about how they have to have all these animals because the government is not helping them. Um, so it's not seeing the damage. that they're causing to the animal. Sometimes it's better to leave a cat outside than bring it into a home that is overcrowded, right?

Absolutely. And as I said, we did go to the World Animal Day website. There's a good article from, um, from the group, the work that's going on in Greece at the moment, which is really, really good. I mean, Greece had a real, real problem. I still got a big problem, but there's a good organization working through that at the moment. And that articulates that on the website. So, I mean, Greece is, uh, there's a lot of issues from, um, dogs being chained up 24 hours a day to donkeys being overused in, um, the tourist industry to stray cats, stray dogs. Um, huge issue, but they now have the toughest jail terms for animal abusers in, in Europe now, they have 10 year maximum jail sentences, and I think it's a 30, 000 fine as well, which, um, hopefully will be starting to have a bit of an impact. So, you know, again, there's progress in all these different areas.

This has been extremely educational. I'm hoping that our listeners have gathered a lot of information and learned about animal crimes and the link and everything else. So, can you share, uh, let's start with individuals that are in, like, animal control officers, humane officers, any animal crimes, how can they find out about the educational programs that you, that you do?

I mean, obviously look at, naturewatch. org, which will give you quite a lot of information, quite a lot of links on, um, the protect animals, protect people, uh, section. There's a reference library, which takes you to all sorts of research on the link from anywhere, all different countries around the world, because we wanted to put everything on there. So that's quite. quite a good forum. If you want to look at how the foster systems work, um, for those involved, uh, potentially in, in domestic abuse and abuse, have a look at, um, Dogs Trust and Cats Protection. They're different projects that they have, uh, for foster care. And what I would put a bit of a rider in there is we know that globally one in four people I've been involved between the ages between 16 and 74, I've been caught up in domestic abuse. So it's highly likely that a number of your listeners would either be, uh, have been in a domestic abuse situation or are going to be in a domestic abuse situation or may not even know they're in a domestic abuse situation. Um, so go to the various helplines and the domestic. uh, abuse organizations put out either nationally or locally and find information out. But just be a little bit careful in terms of If you're in a situation where there is uh, control over what you're allowed to do, just be a little bit careful on your um, on your internet history searching and everything, but there's some good information out there now. Um, go to different police websites, there's a, there's a really good, the best. police website in the world that I've seen. If you go to Edmonton Police in Canada and have a look at their website, they have really, really good information on the link between animal abuse and domestic violence. So have a look at that one. There's some good downloadables on that. So just, just be aware of what the signs are, really, and, and try and, for me, try and, start trying to see animal abuse as, as an opportunity to prevent other crimes, as a preventative tool, rather than extra work. Try and put it into everyday public protection strategy, really. That's what I'd like to see.

Fantastic. Well, again, thank you for your time, and thank you for sharing all your wealth of information. And, uh, to everybody that's listening, uh, thank you for spending the time listening to us, and thank you for caring about animals.