What's up everybody?

Welcome to the Truth response.

My name is Matt, I'm Kevin and Kevin is with me today and we got a couple different things to talk about, mission trip and something else he doesn't know I'm getting ready to ask him about.

So welcome to the Truth Respons.

Sam, please.

Father, thank you for today.

Thank you for Kevin who can be on the show and for those who are tuning in.

Please allow our conversation to be one that is life giving and maybe even inspiring and possibly even something that people can learn from and take and make themselves better reflections of you with.

But help us all to do that and just guide us forevermore in your direction.

In Jesus name.

Amen.

Amen.

All right, so yes, like I said, you are going on a mission trip and you're leaving when?

Head to Miami tomorrow and then we fly out Friday morning.

Yeah.

To Honduras.

Honduras.

Comayagua.

Comadagua.

So is this your first time there?

It's my first time ever on a mission trip and first time to Honduras.

All right, so what's the objective that we're trying to do there?

Well, we're trying to share Christ with people that are there.

I believe that we are trying to help them in and I'm careful not to say their poverty because that insinuates something different to age people but to help strengthen them in their weaknesses and to also strengthen ourselves for our own.

All right, all right.

So you said this is your first mission trip.

When did you realize you wanted to do that?

The second it was offered.

The second it was offered, Yeah.

I mean my personality I like to explore.

I've traveled the world for work generally and for pleasure as well.

So the opportunity to go to a new land was exciting.

But also in my faith walk, much like working with the kids and going to the move trip, I am excited for what God can do in my life and I want to get every bit of experience to get closer to God that I can.

And having not been a servant my whole life, I've been more of the served and deliberately so I know that God wants me to be a servant and so I'm trying to yield and be obedient in that and I can't wait to see what he does through the Holy Spirit in me for being there.

Alright, so you, when it comes to.

So you've never been to this place, you've been all over the world?

Yes.

Right.

But what is it?

What do you think are going to be some of the challenges going in?

I feel like.

And this is just My own image.

I have no basis for reality, but I feel like it's a primitive place where they're not going to have the luxuries or the things that I've become accustomed to.

Things.

Crazy things like being able to drink the water, being able to use a toilet and flush it.

So certain.

Some of those things I'm used to from traveling abroad.

But really, it is the unknown more than anything that I concern myself with.

So, oddly enough, one of them is I'll be preaching a sermon on Jonah to the high schoolers and middle schoolers.

So I've been brushing up on my Jonah quite extensively, and through it, God has used it to expose me to different aspects of Jonah that I hadn't considered.

I love that book.

It's one of my favorites.

Well, I mean, I say that about the whole Bible.

I was going to say.

I'm sure you've said that a lot.

I say that on repeat.

It doesn't matter if I'm talking to students or adults.

Oh, it's one of my favorites.

And it's really.

But, yeah, Jonah is.

I feel a special place because of myself.

Like, I ran from ministry for so long that I felt like a little bit of a kinship when it was pointed out to me that, you know, Jonah tried to run from what he was asked to do, too.

So you're going in and it's going to be different.

So you said one of the big things is that you're going to see different things.

Like you're not going to have some of the comforts and conveniences that are here.

Correct.

So I would say that one of the biggest things is going to be such a perspective change, you know, in where you're just.

You're not used to seeing life through their eyes the way that they do, you know, have you kind of braced a little bit for the fact that there might be something that just might shock you or.

You know, I've been prayerful for quite some time on this.

I know we're going into a human trafficking hub.

If there's at least a twinge in the back of my head about that, I'm going to say that that's there.

What I'm bracing for is a culture where we cannot really directly communicate.

And I'm bracing myself for being one of the leads on the trip, that there are 12 other people on the trip and I don't have a close knowledge of their abilities to travel.

So that in itself is something I'm bracing for.

Sort of like the reference of herding Cats, you know, you don't know.

I don't have any heavy anxiety about where we're going, what we'll experience, what we'll eat, or any of that.

This is the stupid things for me.

I like air conditioner, I like the Internet, I like lights and running water.

And these are all things that are going to be deliberate, strategic things in our life down there.

But that is part of what I wanted to go for, because to see the world through their eyes, I think is going to open my own eyes and open my own heart to greater compassion for others who are less privileged.

And as we engage and invest in those people, whether it be here or there, those experiences, I think, are what God uses to stretch us and mold us.

And that's truly what I'm bracing for.

It never comes comfortably.

Okay, what kind of ways have you started to.

Or what kind of ways have you prepared for the trip?

What's some of the.

Maybe the advice you were given on for people that have gone and done this before or done something like this before?

What have you been able to glean on how to prepare yourself?

I know you talked about prayer briefly, but what are some of the things you've gone through?

Well, we had a book to read called When Helping is Hurting.

And effectively, it just gives you insights which, good or bad, or whether you need to understand it.

You can't just throw money at a problem.

You have to really understand why they're in poverty.

Is their poverty caused by knowledge?

Is it caused by medical, whatever these things are.

So just don't take a look at the surface and say, ah, I understand, and here, let me help you, because you're really not helping, but to get involved with them, to understand them and to engage with them, then you can really help with their real need.

And I would suggest, and I don't know this, but I know that potentially some of the people that we are going to meet with have never been exposed to Christ.

So I'm.

I've been preparing for that, because sharing a message with a Christ follower or somebody who knows Christ, whether they're a follower or not, far different than somebody who's never been.

And so it again adds some relevance to the Jonah story, because Tarshish was dark and didn't know anything of God.

So there's some parallels going on, I would say, reading the books and then just we've been coming together as a team through our different meetings, and I think that that's an important fact to it as well.

So you can better know those who you're around so you can actually know their strengths and weaknesses, and then you can work towards their strengths, cover their.

Weaknesses, lean on those that you can lean on and pick those up who need to be raised up.

I like that a lot.

Yeah.

And obviously, Jesus, you know, goes for everyone listening to this show, which goes out saying, that's the number one thing that we can help anyone to have in their life or understand more clearly.

I mean, personally, I love the.

I subscribe to the CHE approach to missions, which is community health evangelism.

Okay.

And so basically, and it sounds like you guys are kind of doing a similar thing where the focus is not just going in and, as you said, throwing money at it or just building well and getting done with it.

Because some people do stuff like that.

It's about, okay, so how can we help them as their own society, raise up to the next level?

How can we help them so that they don't go backwards?

It's not something where money can run out or we just threw a band aid on something.

How can we genuinely help raise them up into a new level of their living?

And so sometimes that's like, okay, it's not just building a building.

It's okay, well, how can we make sure that the school is running and things, they're getting the proper stuff, and how can we teach them skills that will get them enough to where they can make things to make money, to bring more prosperity to their village, their community, so that they're better off?

It's all about making sure that they are sustainably going to be able to be better.

Yes.

Teaching them how to fish, not giving them a fish.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think they have a really good.

The people that run the church that we're going to, Peter and Kenya and Kathy have been up here.

Derek and his family are familiar with them.

So I think that they have a good foundation on it and they've created an environment for that love and for that learning.

So I think that a lot of that groundwork is already done for us and we just get to go in and love on them.

You know, there's some interesting points, differentiations from what we do here.

They sound much more fundamental than we are in terms of fundamentalist movement because we won't be wearing shorts, you know, things of these nature that to me just suggest what their doctrine is as opposed to just come as you are, we want you here.

So I'm looking forward to finding some of that.

And that may be cultural, but as you said, I've been To several places around the world.

I've never been to a place where I wasn't handled and hosted.

So that in itself is totally unique.

I'm going to be hosting others in this and that is probably the greatest discomfort I have.

Really?

Yeah.

I mean, that's a good point because most of the times when you travel someplace you're expecting to be received, correct.

And whereas this case you're traveling to receive others, which is, I mean, it's very Christlike, you know, in a way, because Christ came, but he didn't come so that people would come and appreciate him.

He came to lift other people up from their madness and their sin, their broken places.

And so, yeah, I mean, I love that a lot.

It's a good way of going about this.

I think it's going to be really awesome.

I think that one of the places that, you know, so I haven't done so broad things like that, but I've gone into communities that were, you know, had some issues before in different ways.

And so my mission background is more community based, not necessarily afar.

So.

But I really love, to me, one of the first things to do is to find the connection points.

You know, how can, how do we communicate?

How can we communicate in a way that we can feel like we can be on the same page about things?

Where's our common ground?

You know, how can we show that we can see each other and know each other and recognize who each other is?

Some of the stigmas that sometimes happen is, you know, people see coming.

People will see people coming in and seeing, you know, well, they're this kind of person, that kind of person to try to break down those barriers, those borders to where it's just two people together.

And I think that's really important to where, you know, all the other stuff is fades away and you're just two people who can communicate and love one another.

But something that you've experienced and I'd like you to elaborate on because it's something that'd be valuable to us, to me personally in this, I'm very cautious and prayerful about the fact that we go in there, even trying to relate and get that connection point sometimes can come in as patronizing or condescending.

And I don't want that to be the effect.

I want them to hear God, not me, just coming in there.

We are already privileged in their eyes and I don't want that to be the message.

So you've experienced.

I'm certain that when you've gone into other troubled areas, whether domestic or abroad.

The heart is the same.

So how do you come across?

So you don't portray that.

Well.

So I would say, first off, more questions and genuinely listening than trying to give answers.

A lot of people come in and they want to go, well, then this and this and this.

And that's presumptuous if you want someone to get to know you.

I try to treat them, in my experience, try to treat new people as if.

Almost as if I already know who they are, but not in a way that's like, but I know what's best for you.

More like a, hey, how are you doing?

And more comforting, like, you're okay with me, everything's fine.

And then just ask, well, how's this?

And how do you go about that?

And just genuinely try to listen for things.

When there are points of connection, just go, hey, I think something like that.

Is it something like this?

Because this is how I've done it.

It's not like that.

Or it is.

And be willing to.

Just be willing to be wrong.

So if you're like, hey, is it this?

And they say, no, I'm sorry.

Okay, then explain.

Just give them the chance to tell you where their needs are, tell you what's really going on with them.

I think that goes a lot longer than if people go in and they're like, well, this is obviously who you are.

And people look at you like, you don't know anything about me.

Right.

You know, so taking the time to listen.

And what's interesting also is trying to.

When it comes to communication, I don't know if you'll need an interpreter at different points.

You'll probably be preaching through an interpreter, I'm assuming.

Yeah, I speak broken Spanish enough to get myself in trouble.

Really.

I can sell beds, but I can't have a conversation.

So I know Peter's bilingual.

And we will have interpreters for those reasons, but, yeah, that will be a big part of it.

And also the words we use, because depending on who our audience is, there are certain words, like in Spanish, apparently you don't use the word rut like, I'm in a rut, because they refer to it as like a deer rut.

And so, no, you wouldn't use that kind of thing.

So it's not knowing some of that stuff.

So we'll use our own American diction and then be reliant on the interpreter to present the message.

Yeah.

Oftentimes with a new group of people, no matter what their background or situation, find out what's the most important things to Them, what's the most normal and the things that they value and use, those are amazing for connection, illustration, and lesson.

Because if you can, the most important thing to them is a clean bottle of water.

If that could be the greatest gift that someone could give them as a clean bottle of water.

And you're talking about, for instance.

Let's just give an example.

If you want to talk about Jesus going to the woman at the well, for instance, and you're trying to convey like she was going for a single bottle of water and it was so important to her, she got it that day.

But Jesus is like, man, you don't understand.

When you have me, it's like you have all the bottled water, you know, need, you know, and then for them, their connection point is a little different.

You know, so, so throw the analogies towards what, what they identify with.

Yeah, it's really important.

One of the things that I, I learned from a guy that did mission trips was that, you know, there was a gentleman who was trying to figure out how to get the people who's talking to, to understand the word faith, what it is to have faith, you know?

Yeah.

And I don't know if I've told you this one before.

No, I just, I, I, I can relate through the translation of the word.

Yeah.

And faith is a hard thing to convey for those who are like, what do you mean, faith?

And so what he did is he saw someone who was leaning back on his chair and he's like, okay, right there, like, what would you call what he's doing with that chair right now?

And he's like, what do you mean?

He said, well, he's putting, he's leaning back, he's kind of trusting.

He feels okay.

He said, well, he gave him a word and the word meant to lean one's full weight upon.

And he's like, that's faith.

It's when you can know God's there and put your full weight of who you are on him and trust that he's got.

And that held it, Click.

So it's all about taking your environment and helping them to see what you're trying to say through their eyes.

You know, Jesus, when he came, let's take a step back when, when God came on the scene and wanted to talk to his people, when he was forming his people, especially through Moses, for instance.

You know, one of the things that can get attacked by people who are very critical of the Bible and its writings is the fact that the laws that were given to Moses for the people were not that dissimilar in many ways to laws of other people in language and form and function, kind of those things.

And what's interesting like that is like people will try to criticize and say, well, it's like they were trying to copy in order to make up a new thing.

And my argument to them would be, you know, well, would you want God to come on the scene, give them a whole new language, whole new thing and have them have to try to all figure that out at the same time or speak to them in a way that they can understand?

Sure.

That reasonably makes sense to them and use the things they know.

Jesus came on the scene, did the exact same thing.

He came on the scene and talked about farming, he talked about fishing, he talked about what it was to live in the world they lived, lived in and used their real life parts to help him with his points and his stories and what was important.

And so that's basically where you get.

This idea that's valuable, that's good because you want to see it through their eyes.

And the best way to do it is to see it through their eyes and then convey it that way.

Yeah, I like that.

Yeah.

And it takes humbling oneself.

You go in thinking you know something and then when you get there, you need to flesh that all out and pretend you don't know anything.

And this may sound ridiculous, that's really what I'm looking forward to in personal growth is the humbling and the servitude.

Yeah.

I mean, even with kids, you know, when you have, I mean, I deal with obviously middle schoolers and high schoolers and I'll get a batch of new kids sometimes and trying to figure out who they are and how to approach them.

It's not all that dissimilar and challenged in some ways because as you're trying to feel out who they are, one of the first things you want to do is you want to make them feel like this is an okay place, this is a safe place.

And then you want to start breaking down the barriers that are immediately there.

So not only is this okay, but I'm okay.

Not only is this okay and I'm okay, but like you can talk to me, me.

And I want you to know that I care, I genuinely care.

And with those things in mind, now where are our connection points?

If you're into sports, I'm going to talk to you about sports.

If you're into riding bikes, I'm going to talk to you about whatever it is that is an important part of your life.

As one of these kids is what I'm going to bring into one of our frequent conversations so that you know that I'm trying to genuinely connect with you.

It's not a surface level thing.

I want to know more about you.

That was one of the keys to my success when I came in and took over the job here of student ministry was, like I said before, I instantly wanted every kid to feel like I was already their best friend.

But not in a way that was trying.

It's just that I wanted it to be natural.

So I treated them as if I already knew who they were and they were already cool.

But not that I'm trying to be cool.

You know what I mean?

Which is an interesting balance, but it's just like, all right, yeah, we're cool.

That's why pounding fist, pounding high five and stuff like that.

Hey, it's cool.

What's up?

I'm just noticing you.

I'm recognizing you and just coming in and then just looking and paying attention to what's important.

What are they talking about?

What do they keep talking about with their friends?

What are they wearing?

What are they presenting in front of me?

And then let's touch on that.

Hey, I heard that you got a vacation coming up.

What's up with that, man?

Do you do that a lot?

And then if they get back from vacation, what's up?

How would the vacation go?

Like, constantly making connection points so that I can weave the relationship.

Exactly.

And the more that you can do that, I mean, you're only going to be there for a short period of time.

But when you're willing to let them in by them letting you in, it's a magical thing where you could spend three days with a person and you will leave lasting impression on each other.

Obviously, we want that to be the most important, most really positive one.

So you mentioned that you were hoping to have kind of an experience yourself.

I mean, obviously you're going to minister to others, but you feel like God is going to do something.

Yes.

Can you elaborate a little bit?

Well, I think God's taking me out of my comfort zone.

I live in a nice bubble that I don't have to consider the way less privileged people live.

And so he's been pulling me like taffy recently to be more cognizant of that.

And again, like I said, I mean, I'm not somebody who's used to serving others.

And it is something that I have tried to put myself in deliberately, intentionally, when the opportunity arises.

So it will change my personality some I think that that is God would want me to do that.

And whereas he hasn't commanded me to do that, I know from Jesus example that I should be washing their feet, not getting my feet washed.

So that's what I'm looking forward to.

I'm looking forward to the rigidity in my heart to be melted some more.

I take every opportunity I can to become more compassionate and to be more empathetic towards those around me because it is not something that comes naturally to me.

Or I could say it was probably born into me naturally, but it was knocked out of me pretty early.

And I've spent my life trying to regain it.

And so that is the long march that I'm on.

And so these are personal ambitions that I believe would serve my Lord well and would make me more available to those who would need to hear his message through me.

So basically, in a way, you're praying the Lord chips away at some of the things that your heart.

Oh, very clearly.

Absolutely.

Very cool.

Well, that actually kind of leads me right into the other thing I wanted to talk about today with you.

So you have had an interesting.

Well, we'll call it a year.

But one of the things, it's not even over.

One of the things that I was privy to is kind of what I want to talk about next.

So it's funny because when you and I first met and you saw me dealing with all the youngsters, the teens and stuff, you were like, yeah, I don't think I could ever do that.

But something's changed and it's been interesting to watch because you had a pretty big experience.

I wanted to talk about how.

Well, MOVE was a large part of it, but how your experience has changed when it comes to inside of the ministry that God's calling to of your life, how teens are now a part of that.

Well, MOVE was the same reason I went to move, just like I'm going to this mission trip, is because I want personal growth and spiritual growth.

I'm just chasing God and sometimes he runs faster than others.

But he's always been there for me and I know that.

And my personal past, I had a very.

We can't even call it checkered.

I had a really dark past as a kid.

And so I prayed for 35 plus years to God let me work with troubled kids.

And MOVE taught me that maybe we can get them before they're troubled.

So I went there very vocally.

I was intentionally.

I was selfish about wanting to go to MOVE because I wanted to experience God closer and have him chip away at that heart.

And I was willing to put up with the kids to do it.

I was pointed out that I've been raising my grandson and my kids my whole life.

So I've really never been apart from them.

And then being thrust into a room with kids that are not my own is not a comfortable place.

It's not a place I enjoy.

But it is a place where again, I can be obedient to God.

And he has given me some skills, abilities, gifts to reach them at different levels, different ways.

See, I will never be able to connect the way you do with them.

And I will suggest I cannot at this time conceive that I would.

Okay, I'll give you that one.

But I watch your connection with them and it's really amazing because it is, it's comfortable, it's natural for you, and it's from the heart and in not my role, but my personality is more the authoritarian side.

And that's what I was raised in and that's how I've conducted myself my whole life.

So there's a whole lot of discipline in me and a lot of self discipline.

And a lot of the kids that coming at us are not disciplined and they're going through their own things.

So much like I'm talking about in the mission trip, the change in me is the acceptance of those things.

And while trying to guide I can't control and understanding I can't control God is working at my personality, which I tell people I'm a control enthusiast to where I am becoming more surrendering to God's will.

So with the kids, look, I have a genuine love for them, I have a genuine compassion for them that I don't possess for the average adult because I sort of feel like the adult made decisions and the kid didn't have a choice.

And that's right or wrong.

It's just surface thought.

But I can tell you when I went to move to hear firsthand the brokenness, not the garbage defenses that you expect and you hear from teenagers all the time, every day in that moment of vulnerability, their genuineness was able to connect with me at a very deep level.

And my goal, my hope is to remove that defense, that barrier forever.

And I know it has to start with me because I walk in the room and most of the kids, I would say, are afraid of me.

If not, they all respect me.

But I'd say there's a certain amount of fear in there and that makes it harder to reach them.

So it has to start with me.

And that's why, whether it be move, whether it be mission, whether it be being in the youth ministry and the groups with you, these are disciplines to me.

They're.

They are.

I expect to suffer in it.

And the expectation is not for me.

And that in itself is helping me grow.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's good.

You know, one of the things that I think, I mean, it helps when dealing with anyone, I will say, but it is really helpful when it comes to youth, is to understand that each of them sees life through different eyes, you know, and oftentimes in life, we tend to only view things the way we view them.

You know, our experience, our thoughts, as you said, your discipline, everything that you've gone through, and it's the easiest, it's our default is to go, well, this is how I see life.

This is how I do life.

But immediately recognize when you're in a room full of kids and, you know, oftentimes we have 24 right now middle schoolers, which is nuts, but 24 middle.

Schoolers in a very small space.

In a very small space right now.

But that's 24 different perspectives.

24 different viewpoints that are.

And we can say all of them are full of drama.

Oh, not many.

Yeah.

If not all.

Yeah, yeah.

But.

Yeah, it's.

And so.

But the thing is, when you see that it's about taking a step back and going, okay, I need to be completely out of this in order for me to be able to see it their way, just because I see life this way.

And actually, you know what?

That would be the one thing I would throw one caution to you, especially on this mission trip, is that when you go into an area and it doesn't have to be like Honduras or someplace that think people are living in a much different way, you can just go to a different part of your world.

Like, there's neighborhoods you can go into and you see how people are living, what they have, what they don't have.

And you can come away with the same feeling.

You got to resist the temptation to see people who.

Whose perspective is ignorant of these other experiences and get mad at them for it.

You know, that that is a.

It's an easy thing to do.

Like when you're around people on a regular basis who genuinely go without that don't have all these nice things that don't.

That barely put food on the table if you're around them a lot.

And then you see people who are constantly taking everything for granted, and it can be really frustrating to see them just flippantly not care about those who are genuinely suffering in the world.

But we have to remember the same thing is true for them.

That is, for the people that we also are ministering to or experiences completely different eyes.

This is their experience.

This is their experience.

The trick then is to figure out how to connect them.

Just like it is when we go on mission trips ourselves or into areas ourselves is.

Okay, where's the connection point?

How can I help you see this?

You know?

And then how can I raise you up to a better level at the same time?

Yeah.

And it starts with the goal.

The goal is not me.

And it's not them per se.

It's God in this case.

And so I find this may sound like a trite answer and it's not meant to be.

I find that every problem I have in my personality starts with me thinking about me.

So if I keep focused on him, I will be in his will certainly more often than not.

And I will be more ready to receive the person who I may find disagreeable, may not even disagree with them, just find them disagreeable.

And therefore, that revulsion, that pullback that I would normally feel if I'm worrying about me takes a back seat to what my goal is.

And that's inspiring through God that I'm very cognizant of.

Look, like anything, there are days where I'm good at it and there are days where I'm bad at it.

I've got stresses going on in my life, and I can tell when I'm pulling back.

As recently, I've been pulling back in God's perfect timing.

It's wonderful that I'm going right now to Honduras because I need to be picked up, and I need to be picked up spiritually.

And that's not something that can happen in my comfort zone.

Yeah, well, I agree.

You know, actually, one of the signs of a truly healthy church is not just people coming in the door.

It's the people who are already inside the building that are constantly putting themselves and their preferences aside for the people coming in the door.

And it sounds easy on paper.

It's really hard in practice.

There's a lot of people that get part of a church and they start to like how things go for a while.

They get comfortable with a certain kind of people, a certain kind of way, and certain kind of even language.

They get in their flow.

They get in, you know, and they're very content there.

And that's wonderful.

But it's not gonna.

It can't stay that way.

It can't.

A Thriving church is doing the work that Christ gave us, which is to bring more people into him.

And the thing is, is when you open the floodgates to the world, the world's mess is gonna come flooding in.

And you have to be prepared for things that you're not used to.

I mean, that's basically student ministry every day, but, like, you gotta be prepared.

Every single Sunday and Wednesday.

Yeah, that's.

That's my student ministry life right there.

But you got to be willing to let it come in and then learn how to minister to it, sometimes on the fly, but you got to be willing to get uncomfortable.

You know, there's plenty of ways that we wish that even with kids, that they could be, or even how adults could be, but sometimes that's not the reality.

And they're not going to get there by you forcing them.

And that goes both ways with adults or kids.

And they're not going to get there just because you wish it was right.

Do people need to have growth inside the church?

Absolutely.

But we need to help them get on that path and help nourish those growth paths, not attack them.

We need to help them, want to be part of that path and encourage them in the ways that will be beneficial to their life.

I mean, just as community health evangelism works outside of the church, promoted by the church, inside the church, we need to be thinking about how can we help the.

These people realize that this is a safe place and you can speak to us here.

And we want to encourage you, and we want to help build you up better.

Not in every.

In every way, spiritually, number one.

But, you know, we want you to know you have support, and we know when times get hard, you can come to us.

And sometimes even when stuff happens, we want to help you out, and we want to send a team or we want to.

There's all kinds of ways that we want to.

But to be the church means that we have to be willing to roll up our sleeves, not only get our hands dirty, but be willing to put ourselves in the muck and sticky situations that we're not usually going into.

Well, and to your point, I mean, there's an old statement that rings true always.

It's, we're in sales.

God is management.

You know, it's our job to bring them to them.

And it also is the genesis of some of the frustration.

I'll speak from a personal point.

I don't know if you share it, but I would assume you have to, and that is your goal.

My goal is to bring them to Jesus.

I want them to know the Christ that saved me, and I want them to be a part of that, and I want that for them.

Sometimes they're not ready to want that for themselves, but they're here because whether it be friendships that are here or getting out of the house or whatever, the reason that they've come, they're not there yet.

And that gap between where I want them and where they are is where God works.

And it's also the genesis of most of my frustrations, because it's like the angst of not again.

Not being able to control that.

Yeah, I think I feel a couple different tensions.

There's the two that are usually the most prominent are one, when people are just flat out ignorant and.

Or just.

Just don't want anything, purposely not wanting anything to do with God, where it's like, man, you guys just you.

The problem is, is you just don't get it.

Right.

Right.

The outward refusal, that is such a frustrating thing.

Well, like, for me, I mean, obviously, God is my life.

So to see people who are flat out ignorant of it or flat out refusing to have anything to do with it and aren't even entertaining it, I'm looking at them like, you guys have no idea what you don't have.

And that can cause some tension and some frustration.

But that's part of the work is to, okay, I understand that situation, and I know how I'm feeling about it.

Put that down.

How can I somehow try to talk to them?

The second tension is the ones that are on the fringe, like, they're flirting with it, they're entertaining it.

Sometimes they even have conversations like they might, and they just love to stay there, you know?

And the problem is there's three areas, but only one's the good area.

You have the yeses, you have the nos, and you have the maybes.

Well, the maybes don't.

There's still a no.

Like I once said, actually, I said to my own dad, the devil owns the fence.

You can't stay on the fence.

Right.

It's got to be a yes or a no.

And the thing is, is that the people that are sitting there and they're swinging back and forth on the fence, and I'm like, get off the fence, man.

It's right there in front of you.

You can see it.

You've been playing with it.

You've been trying it on sometimes.

Let's go.

Like, what is holding you back?

Why are you still pushing against this?

And I think that's part of that is for me knowing that I was in a place like that in a couple different ways.

I was in a place like that in my very late teens, early 20s, where I was trying to push against.

I was really pushing against ministry, but I kind of pushed against the church in general.

And it led me to a point where I wasn't really in relationship with God.

I wasn't necessarily against him, but I also wasn't doing anything for him.

Much to your statement earlier.

You were like, jonah.

Yeah, I was like, Jonah.

He was running away.

So that tension.

And then also when he was.

You know, God has stayed on me throughout my life, that he had plans for me and he.

And.

But, you know, the struggle of him calling me to ministry and me accepting it, which was wild.

And now it's funny because it's all I ever want to do.

I love teaching and preaching, which is something I thought I'd never, ever do.

And that actually is why, through personal experience, I understand that there really is a calling.

I always hear people, are they called by God.

And I used to think, I don't know if that's a thing.

Oh, yeah, no, until.

Until I experienced God not leaving me alone and kept at it.

And then I even argued and tried to push against it, even.

Even up to.

I'm like, all right.

Then I finally went all in.

And then once I was all in, it was okay.

Well, then I don't know why I haven't been doing this.

And then it was almost regret.

Like, I was like, I could have been doing this.

That's the frustration I'm talking about right there.

It's like, dude, you have no idea.

And they just look at you like, whatever.

Yeah, I do get that a lot.

The thing is, you try to just keep focus on the things you can celebrate.

It's almost like the things you can control versus things you can't.

Okay, let's be happy when somebody is allowing you to plant the seed.

Let's be happy when you see someone make a move or step in faith, no matter how small or how big, let's be happy with that.

Let's not let it when someone takes a step back, destroy us.

Let's not let it when someone's just not.

It's like throwing a rock at a wall.

It just bounces right off.

Okay, let's go pick up that rock, turn it back into a seed, and see if we can plant it somewhere else.

Like, you know, it's trying to not let the little defeats defeat us and continue continuously get encouraged by where God is moving.

It's valuable.

Yeah, it's a journey.

And I had to learn how to calm down.

What I mean by that is I used to get too excited.

Too.

High highs and two low lows.

Well, it's not necessarily that.

It's just that when I first was like, all right, I'm all in, you know, all right, God, let's go.

Then I was too excited to talk too much, you know, where even if someone's starting to willing to listen to what I have to say, I would be like, instead of giving them a glass to drink, I'm giving them a fire hose and saying, get on the other end of this.

And like, I had to learn to calm down.

I had to learn to taper myself down and discipline myself on how I approach to every aspect of ministry.

And I'm obviously constantly working on that.

You learn as you go.

You know, there's the famous line, God doesn't call the equipped, he equips the called.

Well, that equipping happens along the way.

You learn it along the way for sure.

But so I wanted to ask about.

So you said that, you know, the kids on the trip and I actually, I'm going to take a step back.

The MOVE trip that we're talking about, it's ciy, which is Christ in Youth.

They put on this big MOVE conference is what they call it move.

It's for the students.

And we take a team and we take a whole bunch of the students to one of their locations and they.

It's.

They saturate these kids with Christ for a week.

And we're there really to help guide them and be their guide rail, so to speak, as they continue down this journey.

And it's a powerful experience, not just for the students, is actually really powerful for the leaders as well.

And you see kids making all kinds of steps in their faith.

We even had some kids accept ministry.

Amazing stuff happens from this.

But you said you went in kind of selfishly and you said that some of the kids, the realness of them, helped break that down.

But what is it that happened really?

Because you kind of touched on it, but you didn't really get into it.

Tell me about how that started to not only crack open those chip away at the heart, but how it really changed your view on not just the kids, but ministry with them.

Sure.

Well.

In a shallow sense, when I look at kids, they're all kids.

It's part of a group.

It's a group process.

It's not an individual relationship.

And I have individual relationships with People, individual people, but as a group, a collective group.

I saw them as the kids.

And so that keeps a 10,000 foot view of it.

And you don't have to really engage what happened with their own personal testimonies.

Even in the breakout sessions where we had small groups gathered after a pastoral or a worship session and they would have conversation notes as to, okay, let's talk about this.

And we never really got to those because they would say something and it would trigger.

One of the things that was most impactful on me is hearing how many of the kids had anxiety and depression and how they're fighting through it and realizing that each one of them is manifesting it differently in their behavior.

But they're all to the same issue.

And if they could just connect with somebody, they could really give some of that up.

And watching them break down, some of them tearing up, some of them crying, bawling, and me feeling it, knowing it, knowing what they were going through, having my own experiences in my past, but being unable to fix it, being unable to take their pain from them really is what impacted me deeply because I've heard and felt their brokenness.

And my immediate is always to try and be that shepherd that I'm going to protect them if I can.

And I felt like that wasn't available to me when I was younger.

So I identify with it very easily.

And so I'm very protective of my children, my grandsons, my wife.

I mean, I'm a protector.

And being unable to do anything other than to talk with them, feel with them, let them know that one, that they're normal was very, very good for me.

But also it was interesting because God used some of the problems and the bad experiences I had and he built my testimony with it, but he used some of that to be able to heal some of their hard spots.

My goal and my prayers are always if I can keep them from living through what I lived through, or if I can help them to get to God's will in their life before they're 59 years old.

That's great because I always thought myself rather intelligent, but I'm rather remedial if you think about it.

I'm 59, still trying to figure out how to manifest my faith.

I've been walking with Christ for a long time and it's just now they always say that when the student's ready, the teacher will appear.

Well, he's been, as you've been pointed out, it's been a long year and he's been working on a lot of Things, but I also pray into people say, what are your prayers?

And I'm like, I'm praying for patience.

I'm praying for compassion.

And they're like, dude, stop.

God's going to give you this stuff.

And I'm like, yeah, but time is short.

I got to do it.

So I'm expecting it, and I'm expecting the pain, but I'm okay with that.

I'm insulated from that for some reason.

I'm built for that.

But when it was the kids and hearing how it broke them, the impact to them impacted me.

And if I put myself in that place right now, I could break down and cry over it.

And I don't possess that as a normal course of events in my life.

Yeah, well, you know, you touched on something that I think is incredibly important, especially with youth ministry.

I've had people that are looking to enter into the youth program as a team member or I've talked to people or talk about, how do you do anything with youth?

And I would tell them, I don't know if I ever told you this, but I know I told this to some of the younger on our team.

You know, I want you to think about, especially if they have a church background, I want you to think about the youth minister that you had and the ways they weren't there, the way you needed them to be.

And you need to be what you needed to be.

Like, think about what you needed as a kid and be that.

Like.

So when you talk about knowing your pain and not wanting them to go through that and trying to help them to.

That's a lot of our heart, is to just be that person that we were missing to do it better.

If we needed someone who was willing to sit and listen, then we need to be willing to sit and listen.

If we needed someone who you could call any day of the week and go, listen, I'm going through it.

Okay.

If you needed someone that's like, I need a. I want to go to youth group.

But the only way I'm getting there is a ride.

Okay, we'll get you a ride.

You know, whatever it is, you know, if you realize or recognize that's a need, then you just try to fill it, you know?

And one of the best ways is reflecting on your own path.

And so that's great that you saw it.

I will say it does break it down.

You covered it beautifully.

But when you're seeing them from a high altitude and it's just a group of them, when you see them as the individuals that they are.

And that's the strive that I.

That's why I go to each and every single one of them.

But it changes the game altogether.

You know, when it's not, well, this is the group of kids, or it's just all those middle schoolers back there, or it's all those high schoolers back there.

When you're like, oh, no, that's.

I'm gonna use fake names.

That's Tommy and Billy and Jane and Sally.

And then.

And this one's going through that and this one, and you see it and you know them, and it's real.

It changes it 100%.

Yep.

Yeah.

It's sort of like watching a movie or living it.

It really is a difference.

And I just.

I react differently knowing them than passing them in the hall, because much like your fist bump and high five them, I do it not to connect with them.

I'm saying I'm not doing it to connect, but I am.

I do it so they feel relevant.

I'm doing it so they feel that I see them.

And I think that that was something that was lacking when we were young.

I always tell people we weren't raised.

We were bred in my family, but we were high achievers in academics as well as athletics, and that took root.

But we weren't ever seen.

We weren't ever relevant for being Kevin.

It was my grades, my report card, my swimming prowess, my trouble.

That was all that got me attention.

And I feel like a lot of these kids are in broken places and they just want to be seen.

You know, actually that's.

You just hit something on the head.

That That's a real issue.

And for some of these kids, what you touched on for them determines their value for some of them, and not all of them, because some of them have some much different issues going on in their lives.

But for some of them, if they feel like their value is if they get the grades, their value is if they're doing the sports, their value is if they're doing these things.

And my question would be, then what happens if that goes away?

My oldest daughter is 16, and she holds herself to such a high standard, and.

And she thinks about.

When she talks about her education, future and such like that, she speaks of it as if she slips, then it's destroyed.

And I'm looking at her like, but you realize that's not your value.

Your value is not that.

In fact, one of the things that she came.

She just kind of flirted with.

She was flirting with an idea because she has these ideas of going to more known schools, higher education, places that are.

I don't know if I want to use the word prestigious, but, you know, places that have more highly regarded.

Yes, exactly.

Highly regarded.

And she came to me one day and because she started looking into something and she said, dad, you know, what would you think if I decided instead I was just going to go to an art school?

And I said, honestly, I said, I would probably be even more proud of you.

And that kind of blew her mind.

I could see her going, wow, that's different.

And I said, do you want to know why?

And she said, well, yeah.

I said, because if you are going to art school, then I know, then you're genuinely going because you're pursuing a passion.

I said, and I'd much rather see that than you just trying to fit some kind of cardboard plan that you had put out in front of you.

Amen.

I agree with that.

So, you know, I want real.

And I think that's what these kids need to understand, you know, that's why, you know, when Nick and I sat down and talked about what is.

What's our overall thing that we're trying to accomplish with middle school, what's our thing we're trying with high school?

Well, with middle school, it's reality and God is reality.

You know, the reality is, is that life isn't just all this stuff that you're getting bombarded with.

God is here and he's in it.

And if I can keep them knowing by the time they get out of the middle school that God is reality, then the next step for high school is relationship.

Now we're going to work on your relationship with God, your relationship with each other, relationship with the church, with your family, everything.

Relationship, true relationship comes from knowing God.

And actually, you touched on another thing I thought was great.

You talked about, you know, you used to.

You thought yourself a pretty smart guy.

Bible tells us pretty much real wisdom comes from knowing him, knowing God, knowing God, knowing his word and having that in our hearts, that's real wisdom in this world.

I can understand the same thing.

When I was not living for God, I thought myself a pretty bright person as well.

Then when I start to get to know God and get to know more about him from every aspect, through the scriptures, through science, that backs him up, all this stuff, I started realizing there's a lot that I thought I was smart about and I didn't know Jack.

And even to that point, I realized the deeper I get in my faith and the deeper I get into prayer and scripture, the less concrete my answers are.

It used to be very black and white.

It's like, no, God's working in the colorful space in between.

And it's amazing.

Now, not talking about tenets of faith, those are easily discernible.

I'm talking about when people come to you with a question about, what do you think about Scripture?

A what do you think he's saying?

It used to be very, oh, well, this is it.

And now it's like, well, I realize I don't know God.

I don't know how good is good and how bad is bad.

I know that the spectrum that I can understand and can see him on is like this compared to what it really is.

So that is in the back of my head now when I talk about God.

Yeah.

I tell you something that radically changed how I view scripture in any capacity, large amounts, small amounts, is when I realized the Bible is all.

It's 66 books, but it's all basically one story.

And it's more than a story.

It's.

To me, it's actually like a symphony.

And it's beautiful and everything fits in there and it doesn't contradict itself.

And so when you have that going in and you realize every piece, if you pull out a piece, it fits into the symphony.

So when I consider Scripture, how does this fit into the greater symphony, as well as.

What does this have to tell me on this note?

How is this note supposed to affect me?

I like that a lot.

Yeah.

So I look at it.

I like, well, another way I've said it is.

And I stole it from a guy that I learned a lot from.

Who?

His name is Skip Heitzig.

He's a Calvary teacher in Alabama.

So you didn't steal it.

You're still giving him credit.

I am giving him credit, but he likes to say the Bible from 30,000ft.

Well, yeah, I got the 30,000ft view where you can look down to see the whole thing.

But then I'm on the up close, I'm constantly going in and out.

Well, this is what it is.

Okay.

Where's it at in the big picture?

This is what it is.

Where is it at in the big picture?

And so that I can really, like.

I want to feel how everything comes together.

It's more than, you know, it's more than just a few words on a page.

This is part of a greater, you know, symphony.

Yeah.

Well.

And I find that I'm starting to realize that better these days from doing the Bible studies that I do.

And when we're In a group.

And we start talking about it, and we get into the meat of a verse and going, well, wait a minute.

Jonah and the fish.

It's not about the fish, but that's what people remember.

It's about a guy who disobeyed God and started running.

And he kept running, down, down, down, which leads to death.

And that's where he would have remained had he not turned to God.

And God just waiting for him so he could redeem him.

Because he didn't just want.

He could have accomplished his purpose through the.

For the Ninevites with somebody else.

But he was also working on the heart of Jonah and throughout the thing to understand.

Again, this small picture, broad picture, like you're saying, it comes alive as you study the books.

And that's the one encouragement I would say, at any age, people would do more of that.

They would find their paths much easier.

And it just took me a really, really, really long time to figure that out.

And I'm still exploring.

Well, you know, I love telling people, don't mix up your s words.

Salvation's instant, but sanctification is your lifelong journey.

You only get better as you go.

And, you know, for some of us, we will only get so great or so good, but, you know, it'll come all the way up to the end.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Yeah.

And I'm excited.

I wish we had more time.

I'd love to hear your lesson on Jonah.

I love that book so much.

I'm still evolving.

I think I've read it, like, probably three times in the last three days, and my sermon has changed three times, so I'm taking copious notes, and I'm going to put them all together into a symphony.

Into a symphony.

Yes.

All right.

The symphony of the symphony.

That's it.

All right.

Well, hey, so, Juan, thank you for coming on.

Thank you.

I feel like we got to talk a lot.

I'll get some good stuff today.

Thank you for tuning in.

So Derek is already on.

He's already in Honduras, so he's going to be there for the next couple weeks.

It'll just be myself and different guests, kind of like it was last week.

But keep tuning in.

You never know who's going to show up or what we're going to talk about for a while.

And then, of course, we'll be excited when Derek comes back.

We'll talk a little bit about how things went.

When everybody comes back, we'll have to do one just on what happened.

Yes, actually, that'll be amazing.

I'm sure some great stories will come out of that.

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