1 00:00:07,478 --> 00:00:10,868 Eddie: Welcome to episode 19 of the Web Joy podcast. 2 00:00:11,198 --> 00:00:12,308 I'm your host, Eddie. 3 00:00:12,638 --> 00:00:16,838 In this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and what 4 00:00:16,838 --> 00:00:20,738 makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community. 5 00:00:21,128 --> 00:00:22,898 I hope you enjoy today's episode. 6 00:00:23,138 --> 00:00:27,198 There's always incremental improvements lying around with Kyle Chevlin. 7 00:00:27,758 --> 00:00:30,968 Welcome to another episode of Web Joy. 8 00:00:31,268 --> 00:00:34,058 I'm excited to have Kyle with us today. 9 00:00:34,328 --> 00:00:35,588 Hey Kyle, how are you doing? 10 00:00:36,828 --> 00:00:38,298 Kyle: I'm doing good, Eddie, how about you? 11 00:00:38,508 --> 00:00:38,838 Yeah, 12 00:00:38,838 --> 00:00:40,128 Eddie: I'm doing pretty good as well. 13 00:00:40,488 --> 00:00:44,568 Well, hey, we typically start off an episode where you just kind of give a 14 00:00:44,573 --> 00:00:48,648 general introduction about yourself, who you are, what you do, uh, where you. 15 00:00:49,713 --> 00:00:50,613 Simple basics. 16 00:00:51,003 --> 00:00:51,483 Kyle: Sure. 17 00:00:51,543 --> 00:00:53,463 Uh, well, I'm Kyle Chevlin. 18 00:00:53,673 --> 00:00:57,063 I'm a platform engineer at a healthcare startup. 19 00:00:57,063 --> 00:01:00,333 I'm not gonna drop the name, uh, just because I actually 20 00:01:00,338 --> 00:01:01,383 haven't put it anywhere. 21 00:01:01,383 --> 00:01:02,613 It's not a secret. 22 00:01:03,063 --> 00:01:07,563 I'm just doing my small bit of like, defiance to like, say, you 23 00:01:07,568 --> 00:01:11,373 know, where we work probably isn't as important as like what we do. 24 00:01:11,943 --> 00:01:13,863 But if it's meaningful to you, that's great. 25 00:01:13,863 --> 00:01:18,873 But to me, I'm just kind of tired of it, and so I, I haven't put it on my resume. 26 00:01:18,873 --> 00:01:21,813 It's not on my Twitter, it's not on LinkedIn or anything. 27 00:01:21,813 --> 00:01:26,043 So I work at a healthcare startup as part of a front end platform team. 28 00:01:26,043 --> 00:01:30,873 Specifically, I am building out essentially eternal tools 29 00:01:30,873 --> 00:01:32,433 and libraries to support. 30 00:01:32,958 --> 00:01:36,498 The other engineers that are building product for our company, our company 31 00:01:36,558 --> 00:01:41,658 helps people who have type two diabetes be able to honestly get off of their 32 00:01:41,658 --> 00:01:46,908 medications through a diet and through some other things that we help them 33 00:01:46,908 --> 00:01:50,418 do by connecting them with, uh, specialists and that kind of thing. 34 00:01:50,423 --> 00:01:55,008 So I am helping people build product faster is kind of how I think. 35 00:01:55,638 --> 00:01:55,878 At the 36 00:01:55,878 --> 00:01:58,998 Eddie: time of this recording, no one actually knows this, but by the time this 37 00:01:58,998 --> 00:02:04,758 airs, I will actually be helping lead a internal front end tools team as well. 38 00:02:04,763 --> 00:02:06,768 So, uh, that's great. 39 00:02:06,768 --> 00:02:07,758 Kindred Spirits. 40 00:02:08,388 --> 00:02:09,558 . Kyle: Congrats on the new job. 41 00:02:10,128 --> 00:02:10,578 Eddie: Thanks. 42 00:02:10,578 --> 00:02:11,808 Yeah, internal shift. 43 00:02:11,928 --> 00:02:14,028 Fun to actually tell someone since no one knows 44 00:02:15,263 --> 00:02:15,563 . Kyle: Right. 45 00:02:15,563 --> 00:02:17,963 You can't, you know, haven't had that chance to get that, uh, 46 00:02:18,333 --> 00:02:19,373 internet dopamine yet about it. 47 00:02:19,373 --> 00:02:19,583 Right. 48 00:02:19,583 --> 00:02:20,303 No, I'm just, I'm just 49 00:02:20,303 --> 00:02:20,573 Eddie: kidding. 50 00:02:20,723 --> 00:02:21,563 Exactly. 51 00:02:23,123 --> 00:02:24,413 , that's what we crave, right? 52 00:02:24,863 --> 00:02:25,343 Yeah. 53 00:02:25,343 --> 00:02:28,013 So what's the short version of your story, right? 54 00:02:28,018 --> 00:02:32,753 How did you get into intern or tools, uh, front end development, right? 55 00:02:32,753 --> 00:02:33,953 Is that where you started? 56 00:02:34,043 --> 00:02:36,503 Kind of give us a brief overview of what that journey looked. 57 00:02:37,083 --> 00:02:39,003 Kyle: My journey is not brief, but I will try 58 00:02:39,933 --> 00:02:44,403 I think people who, who maybe know who I am, uh, through Twitter or 59 00:02:44,403 --> 00:02:47,463 through my own blogging, know that this is a second career for me. 60 00:02:47,823 --> 00:02:49,953 I was originally a pastor long ago. 61 00:02:50,133 --> 00:02:52,653 Um, I have a master's in theology and that's. 62 00:02:53,028 --> 00:02:57,738 Just something I did and I started coding a little over 10 years ago. 63 00:02:57,738 --> 00:03:02,568 Now, honestly, on a whim, someone posted a Code Academy link on Facebook. 64 00:03:02,658 --> 00:03:03,438 I followed it. 65 00:03:03,948 --> 00:03:08,838 I did my ADHD thing where I, you know, just dove in and I just kept doing it and, 66 00:03:08,843 --> 00:03:12,198 and then one day someone was like, You know, you can get a job doing this, right? 67 00:03:12,198 --> 00:03:12,528 Cause I had. 68 00:03:13,688 --> 00:03:14,538 Considered it as a career. 69 00:03:14,538 --> 00:03:15,828 It just wasn't something on my mind. 70 00:03:16,398 --> 00:03:19,128 And uh, they told me to go get a job and I did. 71 00:03:19,158 --> 00:03:20,178 It was lucky timing. 72 00:03:20,178 --> 00:03:23,838 Honestly, it was before like the proliferation of boot camps. 73 00:03:24,378 --> 00:03:27,948 It was a good time to enter the market, and I joined as a front 74 00:03:27,948 --> 00:03:31,008 end developer because that's largely what I could teach myself. 75 00:03:31,278 --> 00:03:34,578 Html, CSS, and J Query, which is all I really knew. 76 00:03:34,578 --> 00:03:36,708 I didn't even, I can't even say I knew JavaScript. 77 00:03:36,708 --> 00:03:40,098 I knew J Query and just a little bit of it, so I joined. 78 00:03:40,998 --> 00:03:44,028 Like a design centric agency, like a, like an agency that 79 00:03:44,028 --> 00:03:45,468 built a lot of brand websites. 80 00:03:45,528 --> 00:03:49,968 And like my very first year, I just can't forget this, it was so formative, 81 00:03:49,968 --> 00:03:53,178 but I worked on like 80 different projects and most of it was like 82 00:03:53,658 --> 00:03:57,558 adding a little bit of UI or fixing some styling bug or something, or 83 00:03:57,558 --> 00:03:58,758 you know, it was stuff like that. 84 00:03:59,208 --> 00:04:01,818 And I got really, really good at css. 85 00:04:01,998 --> 00:04:04,518 I've never understood the people who are like, Oh, I can't do 86 00:04:04,518 --> 00:04:06,498 CSS just because that's what I. 87 00:04:07,013 --> 00:04:10,553 So I actually have a little struggle having that, that empathy, because 88 00:04:10,553 --> 00:04:14,213 that's kind of what I started on and then built the other skills. 89 00:04:14,483 --> 00:04:19,133 And then how I've gotten to like being an internal tools platforming engineer. 90 00:04:19,133 --> 00:04:22,943 I think that has a lot to do with a couple things. 91 00:04:23,453 --> 00:04:28,943 I'm an idealist by nature, so I want things to be right, and 92 00:04:28,943 --> 00:04:31,763 I want to do things right for the sake of doing them right. 93 00:04:32,338 --> 00:04:34,888 I'm very lawful good in that, that regard. 94 00:04:34,948 --> 00:04:38,128 Um, if you're a, you know, you're into d and d and you, you know, 95 00:04:38,128 --> 00:04:39,688 your character breakdowns that way. 96 00:04:39,958 --> 00:04:44,458 And I think the other thing is I'm also naturally like a systems thinker. 97 00:04:44,608 --> 00:04:49,198 I often joke that I'm a forest person, not a tree person. 98 00:04:49,528 --> 00:04:53,188 Honestly, sometimes, depending on the detail, the individual tree, it's 99 00:04:53,188 --> 00:04:54,868 just really tedious and boring to me. 100 00:04:54,868 --> 00:04:55,468 I'll lose it. 101 00:04:55,468 --> 00:04:56,728 But like I. 102 00:04:57,578 --> 00:05:01,838 Almost immediately hear something and see the greater impact it'll 103 00:05:01,838 --> 00:05:05,468 have or can understand how it fits in the greater system. 104 00:05:05,558 --> 00:05:11,528 And so building tools that kind of do that, like build systems that 105 00:05:11,533 --> 00:05:14,888 help people do the right thing as, as silly as that sounds, that 106 00:05:14,888 --> 00:05:17,138 that really fits with who I am. 107 00:05:17,143 --> 00:05:18,398 And then I think the last thing. 108 00:05:19,128 --> 00:05:21,198 I like sharing things. 109 00:05:21,198 --> 00:05:26,628 I've learned, uh, like I like teaching in some capacity, and that 110 00:05:26,628 --> 00:05:30,753 capacity has changed a lot throughout my career, but, Being an internal 111 00:05:31,383 --> 00:05:33,603 tooling dev, that's kind of my job. 112 00:05:33,633 --> 00:05:38,613 My job is to find patterns that are like, No, this isn't great, and here's why. 113 00:05:38,883 --> 00:05:41,523 You know, I, I know you are a busy dev, working the fast you 114 00:05:41,523 --> 00:05:43,413 can, but here's a better way. 115 00:05:43,473 --> 00:05:46,633 And then coming up with ways to make sure that. 116 00:05:47,318 --> 00:05:52,328 They can't fall into bad habits, like, you know, whether it's as simple as an Slint 117 00:05:52,333 --> 00:05:58,358 rule or maybe I just, like, I don't give them the option to screw up in some way, 118 00:05:58,358 --> 00:06:01,268 maybe through types or something else. 119 00:06:01,298 --> 00:06:03,098 Uh, like, I'll give an example. 120 00:06:03,248 --> 00:06:05,318 I work mostly in React and React Native. 121 00:06:05,318 --> 00:06:09,668 Now, I think most people who work in React know that there's a style. 122 00:06:10,443 --> 00:06:11,253 Available. 123 00:06:11,853 --> 00:06:16,503 Well, you know, I can make it type safe that you can't use style like the 124 00:06:16,503 --> 00:06:20,613 prop to override things, but that's not safe enough for me cuz I know some 125 00:06:20,613 --> 00:06:24,063 of you out there are gonna work around me and you're gonna put like a ts 126 00:06:24,068 --> 00:06:28,263 ignore and you're gonna write your own styles and I'm gonna let that happen. 127 00:06:28,263 --> 00:06:32,943 So I literally destructure it and use a Ts expect error. 128 00:06:33,818 --> 00:06:36,008 I don't assign it to the underlying component. 129 00:06:36,008 --> 00:06:37,058 You just can't do it. 130 00:06:37,058 --> 00:06:40,808 I keep you from doing it at run time cuz I know you, I know how you work. 131 00:06:41,198 --> 00:06:46,418 And so, you know, sometimes it's about like gently guiding and other times it's 132 00:06:46,418 --> 00:06:50,648 about putting a really strong barricade and saying, No, you can't break my system. 133 00:06:50,738 --> 00:06:51,428 So sorry. 134 00:06:51,638 --> 00:06:52,358 Eddie: That is awesome. 135 00:06:52,538 --> 00:06:54,668 All of you putting TIAs ignores everywhere. 136 00:06:55,228 --> 00:06:57,628 Uh, including the people at my own company. 137 00:06:57,928 --> 00:06:58,678 Kyle sees you 138 00:07:00,208 --> 00:07:02,758 . Kyle: I mean, why do you think I know what I need to like 139 00:07:03,088 --> 00:07:04,708 prevent, uh, from happening? 140 00:07:04,708 --> 00:07:06,208 It's like I see it all over the place. 141 00:07:06,208 --> 00:07:07,798 I'm paying attention, you know, So 142 00:07:08,748 --> 00:07:09,598 . Eddie: That's right. 143 00:07:10,048 --> 00:07:10,918 That's awesome. 144 00:07:11,248 --> 00:07:16,048 What is it that kind of keeps you excited about working in tech? 145 00:07:16,048 --> 00:07:17,358 Right, in develop. 146 00:07:17,698 --> 00:07:19,678 You, you kind of addressed a little bit of it, right? 147 00:07:19,678 --> 00:07:23,188 Like you like to have things working properly. 148 00:07:23,218 --> 00:07:23,488 Right. 149 00:07:23,488 --> 00:07:26,638 And that kind of leans towards the internal tools, but yeah, I guess 150 00:07:26,638 --> 00:07:28,288 what keeps you passionate about 151 00:07:28,288 --> 00:07:28,948 Kyle: what you do? 152 00:07:29,158 --> 00:07:33,148 That's a really good question, and I think, I think the answer is 153 00:07:33,153 --> 00:07:34,768 like, it's a multitude of things. 154 00:07:35,133 --> 00:07:36,723 I mean, one, let's be real. 155 00:07:36,813 --> 00:07:39,603 There's good money in this career and that does help. 156 00:07:39,633 --> 00:07:42,183 Like it helps you get through the bad times. 157 00:07:42,213 --> 00:07:45,993 It helps you realize like you could be doing other things that are much 158 00:07:45,993 --> 00:07:51,183 harder and, and frankly, I mean, I'm just really fortunate, Like I changed 159 00:07:51,183 --> 00:07:56,103 careers at a good time and I've seen how like for example, my finances have 160 00:07:56,103 --> 00:08:01,173 improved my life because of this career versus my friends who are still in 161 00:08:01,663 --> 00:08:02,883 ministry or struggling or something. 162 00:08:03,533 --> 00:08:08,063 So super lucky there, and it would just be, it wouldn't be 163 00:08:08,063 --> 00:08:10,943 realistic not to acknowledge that, so I have to acknowledge that. 164 00:08:11,333 --> 00:08:13,943 The other thing, I think it just, it's always fit my brain. 165 00:08:13,948 --> 00:08:17,183 Even before coding, I had the wildest education journey. 166 00:08:17,188 --> 00:08:20,603 I started as an engineering major, like mechanical engineering. 167 00:08:20,608 --> 00:08:25,943 I have a double major in philosophy and mathematics because I had enough math 168 00:08:25,943 --> 00:08:28,198 credits that when I switch, Philosophy. 169 00:08:28,198 --> 00:08:30,088 I already had the major done. 170 00:08:30,148 --> 00:08:32,188 It was not a wise decision, by the way. 171 00:08:32,548 --> 00:08:36,448 It's just, it's just something a 19 year old me did without knowing any better. 172 00:08:36,453 --> 00:08:37,888 I didn't have any guidance in my life. 173 00:08:37,888 --> 00:08:41,668 That's a story for another podcast and a therapist probably. 174 00:08:42,178 --> 00:08:46,648 So I've just always had a brain that could, you know, analyze things, break 'em 175 00:08:46,648 --> 00:08:51,568 down, maybe figure out how they work, or just kind of enjoyed that kind of puzzle. 176 00:08:52,113 --> 00:08:54,963 And coming up with solutions kind of thing. 177 00:08:55,233 --> 00:08:56,643 So that certainly helps. 178 00:08:56,643 --> 00:09:03,483 It's nice to have like problems to focus on, to work through, I think. 179 00:09:03,543 --> 00:09:07,773 I think other things that keep me kind of passionate are, I love 180 00:09:07,778 --> 00:09:12,063 the idea that there's just always incremental improvement laying around. 181 00:09:12,063 --> 00:09:13,283 Like you can go learn. 182 00:09:13,743 --> 00:09:16,923 A new technique and you never know when it might be a useful 183 00:09:17,333 --> 00:09:18,333 addition to your repertoire. 184 00:09:18,723 --> 00:09:23,133 I guess related to that is like how like learning a concept can maybe just 185 00:09:23,138 --> 00:09:27,123 transform the way you think and I've kind of always enjoyed transforming 186 00:09:27,123 --> 00:09:31,503 the way I think like you don't pursue degrees and philosophy and theology if 187 00:09:31,503 --> 00:09:36,783 you're not willing to hear an idea or a concept wrestle with it and come away. 188 00:09:37,328 --> 00:09:40,898 With different ideas and be a different person or something like that. 189 00:09:40,898 --> 00:09:43,418 And I, to some degree, I think that happens in coding. 190 00:09:43,418 --> 00:09:44,798 Like I, I'll give an example. 191 00:09:45,278 --> 00:09:49,148 Many people who know me on Twitter know I have a course on state machines, 192 00:09:49,598 --> 00:09:53,438 and I've really enjoyed learning about them over the years, even though to 193 00:09:53,443 --> 00:09:56,858 this day I've still never gotten to use them in production at a company. 194 00:09:57,573 --> 00:10:00,063 Like I have a fullon course on 'em. 195 00:10:00,063 --> 00:10:01,893 I think they're great, but I've never gotten to use 'em. 196 00:10:01,953 --> 00:10:03,543 There's always some pushback somewhere. 197 00:10:03,543 --> 00:10:07,203 I think I might finally be at a place where we can, my managers 198 00:10:07,203 --> 00:10:11,118 like onboard another team is like, Oh yeah, we want to use those. 199 00:10:11,118 --> 00:10:12,588 So might quite get there. 200 00:10:12,588 --> 00:10:15,498 But what I'm getting at is like, regardless of never being able to use 201 00:10:15,498 --> 00:10:21,078 like X State, it radically changed how I think about programming. 202 00:10:21,138 --> 00:10:26,688 You know, you go from these variables that represent infinite uh, data. 203 00:10:27,208 --> 00:10:31,228 To understanding that things actually mostly progress 204 00:10:31,228 --> 00:10:33,928 through a set of finite states. 205 00:10:34,378 --> 00:10:37,168 And when you start to see that, you actually start to see states 206 00:10:37,168 --> 00:10:38,368 that you didn't know were there. 207 00:10:38,848 --> 00:10:42,358 I was explaining something to my wife the other day and I was like, You know, 208 00:10:42,898 --> 00:10:48,088 you might have something where like a light switch is on or off, for example, 209 00:10:48,298 --> 00:10:52,228 but there is something there in the time it takes you to move the switch. 210 00:10:52,318 --> 00:10:54,568 And I was specifically talking about animations. 211 00:10:55,383 --> 00:10:57,933 You would have a state of that transition. 212 00:10:57,933 --> 00:10:58,323 Right. 213 00:10:58,443 --> 00:11:01,443 And when you start to learn to think that way, I think it just changes the 214 00:11:01,443 --> 00:11:03,513 way you look at a lot of programming. 215 00:11:03,603 --> 00:11:04,683 And so, I don't know. 216 00:11:04,683 --> 00:11:06,933 I feel like all those things kind of keep me interested in it. 217 00:11:06,933 --> 00:11:09,573 I, I kind of went everywhere, but that's what I always do. 218 00:11:09,903 --> 00:11:11,943 My apologies for my ADHD brain 219 00:11:13,653 --> 00:11:15,903 . Eddie: No, that's really interesting because I also feel. 220 00:11:16,408 --> 00:11:19,408 In some ways swing it back around to your philosophy degree, like 221 00:11:19,408 --> 00:11:23,788 that's kind of profound because people oftentimes feel unsettled when 222 00:11:23,818 --> 00:11:26,668 they are in a state of transition. 223 00:11:26,968 --> 00:11:27,118 Mm-hmm. 224 00:11:27,418 --> 00:11:33,028 , and I kind of feel like identifying that you are actually in a definitive 225 00:11:33,028 --> 00:11:36,808 state and like, okay, if I'm in this state, what are the attributes 226 00:11:36,838 --> 00:11:38,038 of the state I should be in? 227 00:11:38,038 --> 00:11:39,508 Like, what should I be doing in this? 228 00:11:40,413 --> 00:11:43,323 Because normally they're like, Well, I'm not this thing yet, right? 229 00:11:43,383 --> 00:11:44,613 I'm not turned on yet. 230 00:11:44,643 --> 00:11:45,993 I'm not turned off yet. 231 00:11:46,323 --> 00:11:50,523 And I was like, Well, what properties belong to you in this state of transition? 232 00:11:50,793 --> 00:11:51,843 I feel like I don't know you. 233 00:11:51,843 --> 00:11:52,923 You hit something really deep there. 234 00:11:52,923 --> 00:11:53,343 That's cool. 235 00:11:54,273 --> 00:11:56,193 Kyle: Well, I guess I could kind of see that. 236 00:11:56,193 --> 00:12:00,193 I think I've, I think to kind of add to that, People often hear on my journey 237 00:12:00,193 --> 00:12:01,663 and they're like, How'd you end up here? 238 00:12:01,663 --> 00:12:05,653 And I think, I think people maybe don't recognize that there's really 239 00:12:06,013 --> 00:12:10,993 a ton of overlap, like of all these things, like learning to think 240 00:12:11,053 --> 00:12:14,503 like philosophy was mostly just learning to think analytically. 241 00:12:14,713 --> 00:12:17,023 And that's a skill that's used everywhere. 242 00:12:17,023 --> 00:12:21,493 I mean, that's why PhD stands for philosophy of that thing, right? 243 00:12:21,493 --> 00:12:23,083 Whatever you happen to study. 244 00:12:23,203 --> 00:12:27,583 And so I guess I had, I'm, I'm sure I have, but I, I've never really thought 245 00:12:27,583 --> 00:12:32,088 of it as, Maybe we do all focus on our personal transitions and not 246 00:12:32,088 --> 00:12:33,828 our current states, or vice versa. 247 00:12:34,218 --> 00:12:35,628 That's a really interesting thing. 248 00:12:35,628 --> 00:12:37,488 I think we need another podcast for that one. 249 00:12:38,328 --> 00:12:39,078 . Eddie: Yeah, definitely. 250 00:12:39,078 --> 00:12:40,488 We'll, we'll book that one. 251 00:12:40,488 --> 00:12:41,418 Stay tuned to everyone. 252 00:12:41,778 --> 00:12:48,438 Um, . So kind of one of the main things we come around to on this podcast is talking 253 00:12:48,438 --> 00:12:50,808 about things that bring people joy. 254 00:12:50,868 --> 00:12:56,988 And I've noticed that, you know, you kind of have this motto, right, That you enjoy 255 00:12:57,138 --> 00:12:59,238 leaving things better than you find them. 256 00:12:59,778 --> 00:13:01,128 And I just really love that. 257 00:13:01,188 --> 00:13:05,088 So I was curious if we could spend some time where you kind of talked to us 258 00:13:05,088 --> 00:13:09,108 around how you came around to this thought pattern and kind of how it intersects 259 00:13:09,108 --> 00:13:10,818 with your life and your job and, and 260 00:13:10,818 --> 00:13:11,388 Kyle: that stuff. 261 00:13:11,438 --> 00:13:11,928 Sure. 262 00:13:12,238 --> 00:13:14,098 I don't think it was a conscious choice. 263 00:13:14,098 --> 00:13:20,788 I think to some degree it's who I am, and I think it could be a bit, because I don't 264 00:13:20,788 --> 00:13:26,818 wanna say things are causational, but there's probably some high correlations 265 00:13:26,823 --> 00:13:31,858 with the fact that I'm neuro divergent and maybe there's some degree of rigid. 266 00:13:32,623 --> 00:13:37,033 I kind of look at myself sometimes as a, a relatively like black 267 00:13:37,033 --> 00:13:38,233 and white rigid kind of thing. 268 00:13:38,233 --> 00:13:41,173 I, it's not that I don't understand nuance, it's like, but once I've 269 00:13:41,173 --> 00:13:45,073 made up my mind literally about something, until you really give me 270 00:13:45,103 --> 00:13:48,553 extremely compelling evidence, I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand here. 271 00:13:48,943 --> 00:13:54,223 And I think that applies to like what I mean by improving, while improving 272 00:13:54,223 --> 00:13:56,593 involves change, like the constant. 273 00:13:57,423 --> 00:14:01,263 I always want to improve, like the things I pursue and the things I do 274 00:14:01,263 --> 00:14:05,643 in my life, whether it's coding or like, probably the biggest endeavor 275 00:14:05,643 --> 00:14:07,683 I've done in my entire life is golf. 276 00:14:07,893 --> 00:14:09,693 I took up golf in high school. 277 00:14:09,693 --> 00:14:12,633 I played lots of sports, but I took that one up in high school as 278 00:14:12,638 --> 00:14:15,153 well, and I played collegiately. 279 00:14:15,153 --> 00:14:17,793 I was an all American at the junior college level. 280 00:14:17,793 --> 00:14:21,273 I went on to play more and I thought about turning pro and. 281 00:14:21,628 --> 00:14:25,228 The truth is I didn't because I didn't have money, but looking back like that 282 00:14:25,228 --> 00:14:29,038 was probably a wise decision, even without having the money to try it. 283 00:14:29,398 --> 00:14:33,328 But even to this day, I still practice every single day. 284 00:14:33,358 --> 00:14:35,488 I have a net and a mat in my garage. 285 00:14:35,488 --> 00:14:37,858 I have a putt green in my basement. 286 00:14:37,888 --> 00:14:38,488 I am. 287 00:14:39,308 --> 00:14:43,628 Probably better than I was in college at this point, and I do it because 288 00:14:43,628 --> 00:14:45,668 it's an impossible to perfect thing. 289 00:14:45,668 --> 00:14:50,558 It just really tickles something in my brain to constantly pursue 290 00:14:50,918 --> 00:14:53,738 this impossible to perfect. 291 00:14:54,083 --> 00:14:54,653 Thing. 292 00:14:54,953 --> 00:14:57,803 And it's, it's not just that, like when I was doing music, you can see 293 00:14:57,803 --> 00:15:02,213 on the video camera behind me, I have, I have music equipment behind me. 294 00:15:02,693 --> 00:15:05,243 You know, I was constantly trying to get better at that. 295 00:15:05,248 --> 00:15:07,613 Whether it's be music production or songwriting or 296 00:15:07,613 --> 00:15:10,013 something, I just really enjoy. 297 00:15:10,583 --> 00:15:11,213 It's weird. 298 00:15:11,303 --> 00:15:13,763 The things don't necessarily like make me happy. 299 00:15:14,073 --> 00:15:18,213 But the recognition of improvement or just the feeling of improvement, 300 00:15:18,543 --> 00:15:21,303 that really speaks to me another way. 301 00:15:21,303 --> 00:15:26,043 Like video games, like I don't play video games that like make me happy. 302 00:15:26,283 --> 00:15:28,803 I play video games that I get better at. 303 00:15:29,223 --> 00:15:32,493 Like, as silly as it sounds like, uh, like Rocket League is probably the one 304 00:15:32,493 --> 00:15:34,083 I've played the most the last few years. 305 00:15:34,083 --> 00:15:35,043 And why do I like it? 306 00:15:35,043 --> 00:15:38,253 Because the skill ceiling is unattainable. 307 00:15:38,283 --> 00:15:40,533 Like the ceiling just keeps getting moved up. 308 00:15:40,893 --> 00:15:41,523 Now I. 309 00:15:42,543 --> 00:15:43,443 Personal skills, ceiling. 310 00:15:43,443 --> 00:15:45,003 My thumbs are not amazing. 311 00:15:45,008 --> 00:15:49,773 They're like the least coordinated digits on my body, but I can 312 00:15:49,773 --> 00:15:53,543 see how I've progressed and how I get better and, and that. 313 00:15:53,973 --> 00:15:57,723 That triggers something for me, that pursuit of improvement. 314 00:15:57,753 --> 00:15:58,953 So it's weird. 315 00:15:58,953 --> 00:16:03,723 It's like that's a constant, I think all things should pursue improvement. 316 00:16:03,753 --> 00:16:07,323 I look at the world and I'm like, Why wouldn't you try to get better? 317 00:16:07,328 --> 00:16:12,423 And it's why I get mad about all sorts of things is like, there are common sense 318 00:16:12,423 --> 00:16:16,923 actions you can take to do better or there are common sense actions you can take 319 00:16:16,923 --> 00:16:18,873 to be safer or, or something like that. 320 00:16:18,873 --> 00:16:19,833 Like, and. 321 00:16:20,728 --> 00:16:24,058 I just kind of look at that and that's a constant, like I just expect 322 00:16:24,298 --> 00:16:27,268 people should pursue the same thing as me, and that's, that's how I'm 323 00:16:27,268 --> 00:16:31,498 rigid, but I love the changing that comes from pursuing improvement. 324 00:16:31,678 --> 00:16:32,428 I hope that makes 325 00:16:32,433 --> 00:16:32,788 Eddie: sense. 326 00:16:32,878 --> 00:16:33,298 Nice. 327 00:16:33,298 --> 00:16:35,638 Yeah, no, that, that makes a lot of sense. 328 00:16:36,248 --> 00:16:41,888 I guess how does that, you know, as you're dealing with code as a 329 00:16:41,978 --> 00:16:44,528 programmer, how do you balance that? 330 00:16:44,528 --> 00:16:44,918 Right. 331 00:16:45,068 --> 00:16:50,678 How do you balance improving things versus building things, right, Like shipping. 332 00:16:50,848 --> 00:16:51,698 Yeah, exactly. 333 00:16:52,138 --> 00:16:52,498 , yeah. 334 00:16:53,403 --> 00:16:54,393 How do you improve it and 335 00:16:54,893 --> 00:16:55,383 Kyle: actually ship? 336 00:16:55,653 --> 00:16:58,083 No, I think that's why I'm a platform engineer, right? 337 00:16:58,083 --> 00:17:04,383 Like I, I realized one of the challenges I had was as a product engineer, 338 00:17:04,713 --> 00:17:09,153 I feel like there's unfortunately like a natural antagonism between. 339 00:17:09,558 --> 00:17:15,258 Um, doing quality engineering and product, and I think it's because, you know, 340 00:17:15,258 --> 00:17:19,458 maybe we're motivated differently, but also it's like product lives and dies 341 00:17:19,458 --> 00:17:24,828 by like what they're able to tell the business they've actually accomplished. 342 00:17:24,833 --> 00:17:27,888 Like, you know, what their slide decks and their meetings and also 343 00:17:28,098 --> 00:17:29,598 like what revenue does that bring in? 344 00:17:29,598 --> 00:17:34,983 Like that's how they're going to achieve success versus like, As an engineer, my, 345 00:17:34,983 --> 00:17:40,233 maybe my inclination is not to think of successes, how much dollars I've done, 346 00:17:40,333 --> 00:17:43,443 but, but you know, it could be, it could definitely be a metric, like, especially 347 00:17:43,443 --> 00:17:47,043 like if you're a backend engineer and you can like literally see like, you 348 00:17:47,043 --> 00:17:51,273 know, if I fix this, uh, this function here, this throughput here, whatever, I 349 00:17:51,273 --> 00:17:53,283 save the company X thousands of dollars. 350 00:17:53,283 --> 00:17:53,703 Great. 351 00:17:54,093 --> 00:17:55,293 It's a good metric for you. 352 00:17:55,293 --> 00:17:58,563 But as a front end engineer, I think my metrics tend to be a little 353 00:17:58,563 --> 00:18:01,593 more difficult to touch to underst. 354 00:18:01,993 --> 00:18:08,383 I can't tell you how much more money, uh, more delightful experience gave 355 00:18:08,383 --> 00:18:12,193 without somebody else doing some kind of like analytics and, uh, 356 00:18:12,193 --> 00:18:13,813 economic breakdown, stuff like that. 357 00:18:14,353 --> 00:18:16,633 So I feel like there's that, that antagonism. 358 00:18:16,723 --> 00:18:19,633 And if you're a product engineer, you unfortunately have to balance it. 359 00:18:19,633 --> 00:18:20,593 You have to learn. 360 00:18:21,143 --> 00:18:24,413 You want to be successful, you have to deliver product, and that 361 00:18:24,413 --> 00:18:25,733 should probably be your focus. 362 00:18:26,303 --> 00:18:32,843 But that's why I pursued work where my stakeholders aren't my product 363 00:18:32,843 --> 00:18:36,713 manager and the users directly, but my stakeholders are the other devs. 364 00:18:37,163 --> 00:18:40,793 Like do the other devs feel like it's easier to do their. 365 00:18:41,598 --> 00:18:45,828 Do the other devs feel like they're less likely to run into 366 00:18:46,138 --> 00:18:47,508 the problems they did in the past? 367 00:18:47,898 --> 00:18:51,408 Do the other devs feel like they're being successful? 368 00:18:51,438 --> 00:18:56,328 By using the tools and the systems we create, that's a win-win for me. 369 00:18:56,628 --> 00:19:00,618 That means I get to sit here and I get to fixate on little details 370 00:19:01,158 --> 00:19:02,868 that actually really matter. 371 00:19:02,928 --> 00:19:07,578 Um, things like a system is all all about balancing. 372 00:19:08,093 --> 00:19:12,503 Enabling and disabling what power do I give you versus what powers do I 373 00:19:12,503 --> 00:19:16,793 restrict, you know, and, and really thinking through, like, I'm writing 374 00:19:16,793 --> 00:19:21,323 a blog post right now about how, you know, props on a component do that. 375 00:19:21,328 --> 00:19:25,493 Like some props are expanders, like they expand the possibilities of what 376 00:19:25,498 --> 00:19:29,373 can happen, like children or, um, anything that can take an infinite 377 00:19:29,378 --> 00:19:31,493 state, like a string or a number like. 378 00:19:31,888 --> 00:19:37,108 That's going to expand what this thing can do, um, versus props that are restrictive. 379 00:19:37,138 --> 00:19:41,908 Like they only allow a certain set of, of things to happen. 380 00:19:41,908 --> 00:19:42,838 And both are good. 381 00:19:42,838 --> 00:19:47,308 But you really have to think about when you're designing something to, for reuse 382 00:19:47,308 --> 00:19:51,568 to be reused by a lot of people, how do those things that power, that enabling, 383 00:19:51,568 --> 00:19:56,158 that disabling, how does that impact everyone that's going to use this? 384 00:19:56,368 --> 00:19:58,108 And so, I don't know, lucky for. 385 00:19:58,948 --> 00:20:02,038 That really fits the way I like to think anyway, finding work 386 00:20:02,038 --> 00:20:03,538 that fits that way works for me. 387 00:20:03,568 --> 00:20:07,858 Like the hardest part is convincing people like that. 388 00:20:07,858 --> 00:20:09,808 It's worth paying me for that stuff. 389 00:20:09,838 --> 00:20:13,618 Cause you know, like when things are good, I think it, I think 390 00:20:13,618 --> 00:20:16,678 everyone's like, Oh yeah, let's, let's make it easier for everyone. 391 00:20:16,678 --> 00:20:20,598 But at the end of the day, You know, I think by the time this comes out, there's 392 00:20:20,598 --> 00:20:22,218 been plenty of companies with layoffs. 393 00:20:22,248 --> 00:20:25,728 Uh, I've definitely talked to people on internal teams that are, that have 394 00:20:25,728 --> 00:20:30,858 concerns that proving that you have value and you add value can be a little more 395 00:20:30,863 --> 00:20:36,528 challenging when your work is foundational versus on the edge, like on where the 396 00:20:36,558 --> 00:20:38,208 user actually interacts with stuff. 397 00:20:38,208 --> 00:20:39,198 So, I don't know. 398 00:20:39,288 --> 00:20:40,308 It's a double edged sword. 399 00:20:40,308 --> 00:20:40,368 I. 400 00:20:41,133 --> 00:20:42,753 Eddie: Yeah, no, that makes sense. 401 00:20:42,753 --> 00:20:43,023 Right? 402 00:20:43,023 --> 00:20:49,803 The more of a supportive role you play, the less clear cut your value is. 403 00:20:50,343 --> 00:20:53,883 And particularly like if it's a big supportive team that is like, 404 00:20:53,888 --> 00:20:57,963 Well, you know, how big does this supportive team actually need to be? 405 00:20:58,143 --> 00:20:58,443 Yeah. 406 00:20:58,503 --> 00:21:00,483 So yeah, I can definitely see that. 407 00:21:00,693 --> 00:21:02,143 See that playing a. 408 00:21:02,618 --> 00:21:02,948 Wow. 409 00:21:02,948 --> 00:21:07,598 So that's interesting how that has kind of shaped where you work. 410 00:21:07,598 --> 00:21:11,558 And I totally, I've so far spent most of my career in a product 411 00:21:11,938 --> 00:21:13,178 engineering role, so I totally agree. 412 00:21:13,178 --> 00:21:16,988 Like right, like I've been trained to think through tradeoffs 413 00:21:17,048 --> 00:21:20,168 of quality versus shipping. 414 00:21:20,318 --> 00:21:25,088 Speed, quality and speed are constantly like balanced. 415 00:21:25,418 --> 00:21:28,058 Anytime I'm working on something and it's like you talk to the 416 00:21:28,058 --> 00:21:29,618 product manager and you're like, Oh. 417 00:21:30,043 --> 00:21:33,733 Well, you know, how important is it that it does this extra feature? 418 00:21:33,733 --> 00:21:36,463 Cause we could get it out faster if we cut that one feature. 419 00:21:36,463 --> 00:21:37,003 You know, like 420 00:21:37,693 --> 00:21:38,053 . Kyle: Yep. 421 00:21:38,113 --> 00:21:39,223 You do it all the time. 422 00:21:39,313 --> 00:21:41,833 You know, you cut scope, you cut scope, you cut scope. 423 00:21:42,403 --> 00:21:45,343 I think one of the things that's really useful about this kind of 424 00:21:45,343 --> 00:21:47,653 job for the way my brain works is. 425 00:21:48,243 --> 00:21:53,283 I have a lot of autonomy to, as I'm going, like, I'm improving the 426 00:21:53,288 --> 00:21:57,993 system and I see something, it's not a big deal for me to make another 427 00:21:57,993 --> 00:21:59,823 ticket and go and just keep going. 428 00:21:59,828 --> 00:22:03,423 And, and as long as everything's building towards like the 429 00:22:03,423 --> 00:22:05,853 goal we have, that's fine. 430 00:22:05,853 --> 00:22:10,053 I, I'm also, you know, uh, I'm not the biggest stickler of like 431 00:22:10,083 --> 00:22:12,723 roadmaps and sprints and all that. 432 00:22:12,723 --> 00:22:14,733 I'm definitely a bit more of. 433 00:22:15,573 --> 00:22:18,153 Just put things on a board and let's go. 434 00:22:18,153 --> 00:22:19,593 Like, let's not worry about points. 435 00:22:19,593 --> 00:22:20,223 They're all made up. 436 00:22:20,223 --> 00:22:20,823 They don't matter. 437 00:22:20,823 --> 00:22:21,843 You know, stuff like that. 438 00:22:22,333 --> 00:22:26,403 You, you don't want me as your agile, uh, coach or anything like that. 439 00:22:26,643 --> 00:22:27,063 This time. 440 00:22:27,063 --> 00:22:30,453 I will swear you can blur it out, but I'm letting you know, it's, um, have you 441 00:22:30,453 --> 00:22:33,433 ever seen J F d I just fucking do it so. 442 00:22:34,108 --> 00:22:35,368 Kind of a believer of that. 443 00:22:35,608 --> 00:22:39,088 Eddie: Well, if you ever decide that you need to get a job as an 444 00:22:39,088 --> 00:22:42,358 agile something, let me know and we'll take down this episode. 445 00:22:43,528 --> 00:22:44,008 . Kyle: All right. 446 00:22:44,008 --> 00:22:44,788 Yeah, yeah. 447 00:22:44,793 --> 00:22:45,958 No, no. 448 00:22:46,138 --> 00:22:47,788 I'll stand by this till I die. 449 00:22:48,628 --> 00:22:49,618 Eddie: Sounds good. 450 00:22:49,648 --> 00:22:54,729 Well, hey, as we're wrapping up, I was just curious, like how does this kind 451 00:22:54,734 --> 00:22:57,388 of play in your personal life, right? 452 00:22:57,388 --> 00:23:00,718 Is there any way in which you kind of approach. 453 00:23:00,863 --> 00:23:02,723 This just in, Yeah. 454 00:23:02,723 --> 00:23:05,903 More, you know, where there's hobbies or how you go about 455 00:23:05,903 --> 00:23:07,643 your day or productivity or 456 00:23:07,643 --> 00:23:08,123 Kyle: whatever. 457 00:23:08,333 --> 00:23:08,753 Yeah. 458 00:23:08,903 --> 00:23:12,773 I mean, I think we've already touched a bit about how pursuing improvement 459 00:23:12,773 --> 00:23:14,053 and leaving things better really. 460 00:23:14,478 --> 00:23:15,618 Means something to me. 461 00:23:15,678 --> 00:23:20,538 Like for instance, uh, we bought our first home right before the, the lockdown. 462 00:23:20,538 --> 00:23:24,558 And so, you know, slowly but surely I'm improving things here and I have 463 00:23:24,563 --> 00:23:26,418 designs and plans and stuff like that. 464 00:23:26,418 --> 00:23:27,528 So there's things like that. 465 00:23:28,248 --> 00:23:32,778 I think there's also ways, like I just ask myself a lot, uh, not that I necessarily 466 00:23:32,778 --> 00:23:36,828 come up with good answers, but I ask myself things like, like, are there 467 00:23:36,828 --> 00:23:39,618 changes I can make that would improve my. 468 00:23:40,108 --> 00:23:44,968 That would maybe get me more time with friends, for example, or, 469 00:23:45,028 --> 00:23:49,678 uh, give me more opportunities to spend doing activities I enjoy. 470 00:23:49,918 --> 00:23:51,028 I'll give an example. 471 00:23:51,418 --> 00:23:55,618 I don't do this every Thursday, but one of the things I was doing when I, uh, was 472 00:23:55,618 --> 00:24:00,658 pursuing work was made sure that I told them like, Hey, there's a group of guys. 473 00:24:00,658 --> 00:24:04,558 I play with golf every Sunday, but they also play Thursdays afternoons. 474 00:24:04,828 --> 00:24:05,908 How cool are you with. 475 00:24:06,858 --> 00:24:09,858 Splitting off in the afternoon, going and playing, and then coming 476 00:24:09,858 --> 00:24:10,848 back and work in the evening. 477 00:24:10,848 --> 00:24:13,218 And it, you know, if they balked at it, I balked at them. 478 00:24:13,308 --> 00:24:16,158 But the way I look at it, two things. 479 00:24:16,158 --> 00:24:17,598 I live in the Pacific Northwest. 480 00:24:18,088 --> 00:24:19,428 Sunlight is a precious commodity. 481 00:24:19,488 --> 00:24:22,308 I gotta take advantage of it while it's there, but two. 482 00:24:22,758 --> 00:24:24,648 You know, time is a precious commodity. 483 00:24:24,648 --> 00:24:27,588 Like one of the ways you can be wealthy in this world is to have freedom with your 484 00:24:27,588 --> 00:24:30,318 time, and it's really hard to achieve. 485 00:24:30,468 --> 00:24:35,718 And so finding people that will be okay with that or allow you at least the 486 00:24:35,718 --> 00:24:39,678 flexibility to maybe control your time a little bit more can be really meaningful. 487 00:24:39,738 --> 00:24:44,238 And so for me that's, that's one of the ways, like I kind of apply all that to my. 488 00:24:45,693 --> 00:24:49,473 Honestly a part of it is it it, and this kind of goes back to philosophy, 489 00:24:49,473 --> 00:24:53,283 theology, and all that is like, it's just really thinking about how time is finite. 490 00:24:53,673 --> 00:24:57,453 And I think there's potentially even more pressure on it due to things like. 491 00:24:58,658 --> 00:25:03,378 Anything from like, uh, climate change to all sorts of other potential 492 00:25:03,378 --> 00:25:06,798 issues and crises that might happen that affect things like economics 493 00:25:06,798 --> 00:25:07,998 and communities and all that. 494 00:25:07,998 --> 00:25:12,858 So part of me is like, I might as well do the things I enjoy now while I can. 495 00:25:13,098 --> 00:25:15,798 Because I don't know if they're gonna be here in 30 years. 496 00:25:15,798 --> 00:25:19,188 I play with a bunch of old retirees, and I joke with them about that all the time. 497 00:25:19,188 --> 00:25:20,928 They're like, in their sixties and seventies, they play 498 00:25:20,928 --> 00:25:22,068 four or five times a week. 499 00:25:22,518 --> 00:25:25,668 And I know people have their qualms with golf and I, I get it. 500 00:25:25,728 --> 00:25:27,048 I really do actually get it. 501 00:25:27,048 --> 00:25:30,858 I, I think they'd be surprised that I, that I actually understand 502 00:25:30,858 --> 00:25:31,818 why they're upset with it. 503 00:25:31,818 --> 00:25:35,028 But it's just a, it's just the most challenging activity that I've 504 00:25:35,328 --> 00:25:36,738 ever done in my life and enjoy. 505 00:25:36,738 --> 00:25:40,458 I enjoy it in a very different way than probably they think, But my point. 506 00:25:41,073 --> 00:25:41,883 It might not be there. 507 00:25:41,913 --> 00:25:44,493 When I'm at the age of retirement, we might not get to retirement. 508 00:25:44,553 --> 00:25:47,823 So I'm gonna try and enjoy it while I can and enjoy whatever else in 509 00:25:47,823 --> 00:25:48,993 my life that I can, while I can. 510 00:25:49,233 --> 00:25:51,243 Eddie: No, I think that makes a lot of sense. 511 00:25:51,243 --> 00:25:55,983 And I think lots of times we can shut down our ideas of growth and progress 512 00:25:55,983 --> 00:25:57,603 because we think, Well, I can't do that. 513 00:25:57,663 --> 00:25:58,023 Right. 514 00:25:58,023 --> 00:26:01,053 And so it's just, I think in some ways, like you were talking about with your 515 00:26:01,053 --> 00:26:05,618 house, allowing yourself, What could be better and don't shut it down immediately. 516 00:26:05,618 --> 00:26:09,038 And then you can make a plan and you can say, This won't be tomorrow, 517 00:26:09,038 --> 00:26:12,068 but maybe I'll do this in six months or a year or two years. 518 00:26:12,068 --> 00:26:15,998 And allowing yourself, you know, um, to make the most 519 00:26:15,998 --> 00:26:17,228 important things happen today. 520 00:26:17,288 --> 00:26:18,698 Cuz like you said, you know, Yeah. 521 00:26:18,988 --> 00:26:19,828 Who knows what tomorrow 522 00:26:19,828 --> 00:26:20,218 Kyle: holds. 523 00:26:20,758 --> 00:26:21,268 Who knows? 524 00:26:21,328 --> 00:26:21,988 I sure don't. 525 00:26:22,498 --> 00:26:22,588 Yep. 526 00:26:22,948 --> 00:26:23,548 Eddie: Awesome. 527 00:26:23,548 --> 00:26:26,008 Well, Kyle, thank you so much for joining me. 528 00:26:26,098 --> 00:26:30,238 Uh, it's been just a delight to chat and kind of talk through your, 529 00:26:30,238 --> 00:26:34,828 your worldview and your experiences as a developer and, uh, yeah. 530 00:26:34,833 --> 00:26:35,278 Appreciate 531 00:26:35,278 --> 00:26:35,428 Kyle: it. 532 00:26:35,578 --> 00:26:36,358 Yeah, thank you Eddie. 533 00:26:36,358 --> 00:26:38,908 I glad to be here and, um, had a lot of 534 00:26:38,908 --> 00:26:39,208 fun. 535 00:26:40,215 --> 00:26:43,155 Eddie: Thank you for joining us for episode 19. 536 00:26:43,335 --> 00:26:47,295 There's always incremental improvements lying around with Kyle Chevlin. 537 00:26:47,715 --> 00:26:51,585 You can find out more about Kyle on his Twitter at Kyle Chevlin 538 00:26:51,855 --> 00:26:54,765 or his website, kyle chevlin.com. 539 00:26:55,395 --> 00:26:56,265 He has a brand. 540 00:26:56,955 --> 00:26:59,925 You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, 541 00:26:59,925 --> 00:27:03,465 as well as a link to Kyle's Twitter and website in the show notes. 542 00:27:03,795 --> 00:27:04,605 If you didn't get it. 543 00:27:05,805 --> 00:27:08,625 If you enjoyed this episode, help others discover it as well. 544 00:27:08,985 --> 00:27:12,825 Give us a shout out on Twitter and tag a friend or a coworker 545 00:27:12,825 --> 00:27:14,325 that you think would enjoy it. 546 00:27:14,865 --> 00:27:19,965 And don't forget to follow us on Twitter to stay up to date at web Joy fm. 547 00:27:20,565 --> 00:27:23,175 Thank you for listening and have a great day.