We were glad to record this lecture
by David Bercot,
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which he presented at a training on
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how Christians can have better
spiritual conversations with Muslims.
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Before we get started,
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we'd like to provide a little context
for a few things, he says in this lecture.
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Firstly, he uses the term orthodoxy,
which can sometimes refer to the Eastern
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Orthodox Church, but generally,
unless he says otherwise,
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he's probably referring to orthodoxy
in the sense of Christianity
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rightly understood, which would include
the church in both the East and the West.
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Secondly, while David does critique
the Western understanding of the Trinity,
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we think it best to acknowledge
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that there have been many in the West
that have properly articulated
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and understood the relationship
between the three members of the Trinity.
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Though we are thankful
for the imagery from the East
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that helps us better visualize
this hard to understand doctrine.
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If you would like the PowerPoint
that David uses in this lecture,
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you can find it linked as a PDF down
in the description below.
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The Trinity.
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You probably are guessing.
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You already know what it teaches,
and in that
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so you'll probably be hearing
some different things tonight.
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And this isn't coming from me.
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None of this is,
not a drop of it is original.
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So originally this presentation
would have been an explanation
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of what the early Christians
believed about the Trinity.
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The Christians, like within the first
100 years after the apostles.
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and I had to work through this.
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I grew up a Jehovah's Witness,
and so the Trinity
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is a big stumbling block for them.
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So I can relate to the Muslims
in this regard and how much the
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early Christian understanding
really helped me
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to grasp the Trinity
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and our church
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back in Texas years ago
when Deborah and I, this was
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maybe just a few years
after we left Jehovah's Witnesses, that
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our church was reaching out to Muslims
in our area there
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and in our experience
of witnessing to them, yeah,
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the Trinity was really hard And I had not
yet read the early Christian writings.
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This was just in an evangelical church.
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And so I couldn't answer their questions.
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It they objected.
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It's a totally confusing doctrine.
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And I had trouble disagreeing with that
because none of us could really explain
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it. You know, they were saying, well,
there's three gods.
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Well, we knew that wasn't true. No,
there's only one God.
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But we couldn't we couldn't really
explain it very well to them.
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You know, they'd say, well, Allah is one,
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you know,
And you're saying there's three gods.
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No, no,
there's only one God for Christians.
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But. Okay.
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And explain how this works.
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Well, it's a mystery, you know.
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And then they felt like, well,
that diminishes Allah
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because, you know, he's not supreme.
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There's the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
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And so anyway, I wish I could have
that conversation again.
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Now, I'm going to be sharing tonight
from the perspective
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that Allah, in worshiping
Allah, Muslims are attempting to worship
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the God of Abraham,
but with considerable misunderstanding.
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So I'm going to be thinking of Allah as
the Father, the God of the Old Testament.
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And I'm not qualified necessarily
to even discuss that subject.
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But I'm just saying this at the outset.
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So you know where I'm coming from
in my explanation, it doesn't matter.
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The Trinity is what it is,
regardless of your view of Allah.
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But anyway, that's my perspective
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and I think perhaps most of you here.
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In other words, I'm taking the view
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that Muslims
are trying to worship the Father,
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and that's what I believe about Orthodox
Jews as well.
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They just.
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Orthodox Jews maybe have a little better
understanding, a more accurate then
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the Muslims do.
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But neither one of them, of course, grasp
or understand the Trinity.
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Okay.
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So we're going to look
at some of the wrong explanations
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that Christians give about the Trinity,
the ones that were always
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given to me as a Jehovah's Witness,
the ones that our church gave.
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And that didn’t
make a lot of sense to Muslims.
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I mean, you could understand
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the illustrations,
but it didn't explain how this works.
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So one of them,
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the one I heard a lot as a Jehovah's
Witness is a trinity is like an egg.
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How many of you heard that before?
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Well, every hand just about.
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Okay.
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Well, that still was around
when I was a little boy.
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I guess it's still around.
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Okay, so, yeah, the explanation is, well,
it's like an egg.
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You have the yolk, you have the white
and you have the shell.
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See, it's three,
but there's just one egg, you know?
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Well,
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yeah, but
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we'll see why this isn't Orthodox
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in a minute.
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Apple, have any of you heard
that illustration, not as common.
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Okay, So that was another one
I heard a lot.
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It's the Trinity is like an apple.
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You have the stem, you have the skin,
and then you have the meat
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inside the fruit,
the white of it, inside.
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Don't take these notes down.
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This is the wrong way. Okay, So
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I don't want to go home and say, yeah,
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the Trinity is like an egg, or it's like
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another wrong one.
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Okay.
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Actually,
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Saint Patrick did not use the Shamrock
as an illustration of the Trinity.
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That's a myth, but that's one
you hear a lot.
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Okay, You say, Yeah, this is a trinity.
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You've got like a three leaf clover
or shamrock.
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Okay.
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So those are all explanations
that are dead wrong.
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Most Christians don't realize that.
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They're not trying to explain it
incorrectly, but
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most Western
Christians do not understand the Trinity.
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Now, the things we’ll be sharing
today are not only what
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the early Christians
believe about the Trinity, but it's what
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Eastern Orthodox Coptic,
almost all your Eastern churches believe.
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So if you're going to Eastern lands,
you'll be dealing with Christians there.
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They would be familiar with the things
I'm going to be sharing tonight.
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It's Western Christians who got it wrong
and have been explaining it wrong.
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Okay, so what
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the Nicene Creed says about God.
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Have all of you
heard of the Nicene Creed?
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If you haven't, don't raise your hand.
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I mean, don't.
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Okay, you've heard the egg,
but you haven't heard the Nicene Creed.
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That's interesting.
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Okay, so I'm glad I asked the question.
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So the Nicene Creed is the standard
orthodox
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explanation or statement,
I should say, of the Trinity.
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Almost all Western
Christians would say they believe it.
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Well, maybe I shouldn't say that,
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since obviously a lot of Western
Christians haven't even heard of it.
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But it's generally at least in textbooks
and that they would say, Yeah,
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this is what all Christians believe
about the Trinity.
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It was in the year 325
at the Council of Nicaea,
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and this was the definition
that they gave.
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It starts off, we believe in one God,
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the Father almighty maker of all things,
visible and invisible.
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And that's the same way
the Apostles Creed starts off.
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How many of you have heard the Apostle’s
Creed?
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Okay, good. Okay. All right.
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So that's the original creed of the early
Christians is the Apostle’s Creed.
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So I'm glad you've heard of that.
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That's the important one.
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So the Nicene Creed was a more
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elaborate explanation of it.
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And it says this.
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It starts off we believe in one God,
the Father Almighty.
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And then it says,
and in one Lord Jesus Christ,
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the Son of God,
the only begotten of His Father,
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of the substance, of the
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Father, God of God, light of light,
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very God of very God begotten,
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not made being of the same substance
as the Father.
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Okay, so that's the Orthodox
statement of the Trinity.
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Does that make any sense to you?
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Is it non intelligible
or is that understandable?
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It’s not a trick question? I'm
just curious
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how many think you understand
what that's trying to say.
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Okay, it's fine if you don't.
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I mean, you know, it's a bit
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I don't know if I would have understood it
when I first read it.
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You know, I get it now
and, by the end of tonight.
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You'll understand this.
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What it's saying.
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Okay. Okay.
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So it says Jesus is God
from God and light from light.
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And it sounds, see in English,
this was written in Greek and in English.
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This doesn't translate well.
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And, it does sound like you're
double talked or something like that.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Here the creed is using the word God
in a descriptive sense,
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not as a proper name
when it says Jesus is God from God,
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which sounds like,
okay, that doesn't make sense.
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It's using the word God
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to describe his nature.
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It’s equivalent
of saying human from human.
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Okay, See, in English you don't.
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The word God is normally
just a proper name.
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You know, God the person.
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But in Greek.
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Theos, the word for God.
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It could be the name of a person.
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But for most Greeks,
they didn't believe in just one God.
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So it was like saying human.
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In other words, is he human or is he god?
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Okay, That God was meant divine
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divinity,
that you're something more than human.
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Okay.
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Or it's like when Adam
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said about Eve,
this is flesh of my flesh.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Somebody of the same substance
or nature that he was.
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Okay, So
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Jesus is God from God.
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In other words, he came from the Father.
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He is the same nature as the Father.
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Like my Son would be.
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Man human from human or man from man.
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He's God from God. Okay.
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But if Jesus is eternal,
how can he be a Son?
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Or if he was begotten,
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how can he be eternal?
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And that was always my question. Okay.
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If he's eternal, how can he be a Son?
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And I would ask so many people this,
you know, after leaving
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Jehovah's Witnesses and it was like, yeah,
they couldn't answer.
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Well, in what sense is he a Son?
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You couldn't answer.
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But he is the Son, you know. Well, how?
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And then when I was reading
the early Christians,
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of course, they explained all this, and
this is where we're going to start now.
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Okay.
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So they use the illustration of the Son
in the sky, in the heavens.
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All right, So think of it.
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Just think of this picture.
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Hebrews one three says,
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and Christ is the radiance of His glory
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and the exact representation
of His, His meaning.
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The Father nature, and upholds
all things by the word of his power.
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Okay, so looking at that picture again.
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Okay.
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So they understood the Father
to be the nucleus of the Son.
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And Hebrews says this, that
the Son of God, Jesus is the radiance.
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So do you see the radiance that comes out
from the center of the sun?
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So that's Jesus.
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He's the radiance
that comes out from the Father.
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The Father is the mass of the sun itself.
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Okay. Okay.
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So the Son is begotten.
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He's not made.
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He's begotten in eternity.
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So let's think how that's possible.
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So he's begotten.
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In other words, the radiance or the light
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that comes from the sun, it's begotten.
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It doesn't come of itself.
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It has an origin.
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That origin is in the sun.
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The light is begotten from the sun.
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Everyone, understand that, okay?
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00:12:53,814 --> 00:12:56,275
The light doesn't just start nowhere.
247
00:12:56,275 --> 00:12:58,319
It originates in the sun.
248
00:12:58,319 --> 00:13:00,905
You could say it's begotten from the sun.
All right.
249
00:13:00,905 --> 00:13:03,741
Now we know the sun isn't eternal.
250
00:13:03,741 --> 00:13:09,371
But let's imagine that the sun up there
in the heavens, that it is eternal.
251
00:13:09,371 --> 00:13:12,374
Imagine it has always existed.
252
00:13:12,750 --> 00:13:14,126
If it's always existed.
253
00:13:14,126 --> 00:13:17,129
What about the light that comes from it?
254
00:13:17,505 --> 00:13:21,717
The light would always exist to,
because its coexistent.
255
00:13:21,717 --> 00:13:23,427
In other words,
256
00:13:23,427 --> 00:13:25,387
the minute God created the sun,
257
00:13:25,387 --> 00:13:28,390
you immediately
had light, instantaneously.
258
00:13:28,766 --> 00:13:31,268
And so the Father is eternal.
259
00:13:31,268 --> 00:13:33,229
He has alway been here.
260
00:13:33,229 --> 00:13:37,983
So the radiance from him
is eternal as well.
261
00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:42,112
In other words, as long as the Father
has been here, then that radiance,
262
00:13:42,112 --> 00:13:45,491
the Son, you know,
Jesus is eternal as well.
263
00:13:45,908 --> 00:13:48,369
But Jesus is begotten.
264
00:13:48,369 --> 00:13:51,372
He is like the light from the sun.
265
00:13:51,497 --> 00:13:53,749
His origin is in the Father.
266
00:13:53,749 --> 00:13:56,752
If you don't have the Father,
you can't have the Son.
267
00:13:56,919 --> 00:14:02,716
You can't have Jesus Christ, because
you know his origin is in the Father.
268
00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:04,510
He doesn't exist of himself.
269
00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:06,512
He exists in the Father.
270
00:14:06,512 --> 00:14:07,555
Does that make sense?
271
00:14:09,056 --> 00:14:09,807
It's not.
272
00:14:09,807 --> 00:14:11,141
Yeah, it was. It was so simple.
273
00:14:11,141 --> 00:14:13,352
I thought, Wow,
why have I never heard this?
274
00:14:13,352 --> 00:14:14,728
I've only heard the apple and the egg.
275
00:14:14,728 --> 00:14:18,899
And it's like, Yeah,
which didn't explain anything.
276
00:14:19,149 --> 00:14:20,609
Yeah, this. This made sense.
277
00:14:20,609 --> 00:14:23,612
And then we're not going to talk
very much about the Holy Spirit, but.
278
00:14:23,654 --> 00:14:26,699
Sometimes they would say the Holy Spirit
is like the heat that comes from the sun,
279
00:14:26,907 --> 00:14:30,661
the same, same principle
as if the sun is eternal.
280
00:14:30,661 --> 00:14:33,330
Then the heat that comes from
it is eternal is as well.
281
00:14:33,330 --> 00:14:34,999
Okay,
282
00:14:34,999 --> 00:14:37,084
So that's why you can be begotten
283
00:14:37,084 --> 00:14:40,087
and yet be eternal at the same time.
284
00:14:40,296 --> 00:14:43,382
And Here's another illustration
that some people find,
285
00:14:43,382 --> 00:14:46,385
easier to grasp.
286
00:14:46,385 --> 00:14:48,304
And both of them.
287
00:14:48,304 --> 00:14:51,056
So the other illustration, they would use
is that
288
00:14:51,056 --> 00:14:55,436
the father is like a spring of water
that that bubbles up.
289
00:14:55,477 --> 00:14:55,895
Okay.
290
00:14:56,979 --> 00:14:59,189
Jesus, the Son of God,
291
00:14:59,189 --> 00:15:03,485
is like a river coming out of that spring.
292
00:15:03,485 --> 00:15:05,279
Okay. Out of that pool.
293
00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:06,488
All right.
294
00:15:06,488 --> 00:15:08,616
So let me ask you the same question.
295
00:15:08,616 --> 00:15:11,619
If that spring that pool of water
296
00:15:12,244 --> 00:15:15,247
has always existed,
then what about the river?
297
00:15:18,334 --> 00:15:20,127
The rivers always existed.
298
00:15:20,127 --> 00:15:22,963
You see, it's co-eternal, in other words.
299
00:15:22,963 --> 00:15:25,466
But the river doesn't exist by itself.
300
00:15:25,466 --> 00:15:28,928
It's dependent
on the spring of water that comes up.
301
00:15:29,386 --> 00:15:33,515
But if that spring has always been there,
which the father has always been there,
302
00:15:33,766 --> 00:15:36,769
then the river running off of
it has always been there.
303
00:15:36,936 --> 00:15:38,979
At the same time. Okay.
304
00:15:38,979 --> 00:15:42,816
So that's why we can have a Son of God,
and yet he's eternal at the same time.
305
00:15:43,275 --> 00:15:46,278
Now, is there any difference between
306
00:15:46,612 --> 00:15:52,409
the nature of the water in that spring
and the nature of the water in the river?
307
00:15:53,702 --> 00:15:55,746
Not a trick question.
308
00:15:55,746 --> 00:15:57,623
No, it's the same thing.
It's the same water.
309
00:15:57,623 --> 00:15:59,333
You know, it's the same thing.
310
00:15:59,333 --> 00:16:05,130
So we say Jesus has the same nature
or substance as the father.
311
00:16:05,422 --> 00:16:06,840
He's he's not different.
312
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,009
It's the same
313
00:16:09,009 --> 00:16:09,551
life.
314
00:16:09,551 --> 00:16:13,138
It's the same divinity
that flows out of the father into the son.
315
00:16:13,138 --> 00:16:15,349
So he doesn't have a different divinity.
316
00:16:15,349 --> 00:16:20,771
He's not like a sub divinity or that he
has the exact same nature as the father.
317
00:16:20,771 --> 00:16:24,483
Just like that river would have
the exact same nature as the spring.
318
00:16:25,901 --> 00:16:26,193
Okay.
319
00:16:26,193 --> 00:16:27,695
So the Father, and see
320
00:16:27,695 --> 00:16:31,031
this is where most Western Christians,
they don't understand.
321
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,451
The Father is the source of the Trinity.
322
00:16:34,618 --> 00:16:37,913
They basically have a trinity
without a source that.
323
00:16:38,497 --> 00:16:40,165
Yeah, it's just always been there.
324
00:16:40,165 --> 00:16:43,585
Well, you don't really have,
you have names, Father and Son,
325
00:16:44,086 --> 00:16:47,089
but you don't really have a Father
and you don't really have a Son.
326
00:16:47,381 --> 00:16:51,010
But see, in the Orthodox
the correct understanding of the Trinity.
327
00:16:51,301 --> 00:16:51,635
Yeah.
328
00:16:51,635 --> 00:16:55,681
You, you have a real Father
and you have a real Son.
329
00:16:56,098 --> 00:16:59,101
The Father is a Father
because he's the source of it.
330
00:16:59,351 --> 00:17:03,689
The life of the Holy Spirit
and the Son come from the Father.
331
00:17:03,689 --> 00:17:07,026
They're being
their existence is in the Father.
332
00:17:08,193 --> 00:17:10,404
Okay.
333
00:17:10,404 --> 00:17:11,947
Have any of you heard any of this before?
334
00:17:11,947 --> 00:17:13,991
Is this new to you?
335
00:17:13,991 --> 00:17:16,952
Raise your hand if it’s new. Okay.
336
00:17:16,952 --> 00:17:17,327
Yeah.
337
00:17:17,327 --> 00:17:20,497
Most Western Christians,
I mean, like I say, you know,
338
00:17:20,622 --> 00:17:23,709
when I went and explained to my pastor
it was like, it's fascinating.
339
00:17:23,709 --> 00:17:25,711
I've never heard that before
and gone to seminary and everything.
340
00:17:25,711 --> 00:17:26,587
I mean, wasn't his fault.
341
00:17:26,587 --> 00:17:29,590
I mean, like I say,
this got lost in the West
342
00:17:30,007 --> 00:17:33,010
because of again, all of this was
343
00:17:33,427 --> 00:17:36,805
originally written in Greek
and it didn't translate well into Latin.
344
00:17:36,805 --> 00:17:39,391
And yeah, it got misunderstood.
345
00:17:39,391 --> 00:17:41,852
Okay,
346
00:17:41,852 --> 00:17:43,520
now back to this,
347
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,149
this illustration
of the spring and the river.
348
00:17:47,316 --> 00:17:50,319
Okay. Now,
349
00:17:50,444 --> 00:17:53,447
if that spring dried up,
350
00:17:54,281 --> 00:17:56,867
what would happen to the river?
351
00:17:56,867 --> 00:17:58,243
It would dry up. Very good.
352
00:17:58,243 --> 00:18:02,164
Okay, so you see, the river is dependent
353
00:18:02,164 --> 00:18:05,167
on the spring for its existence.
354
00:18:05,167 --> 00:18:06,585
Okay?
355
00:18:06,585 --> 00:18:10,506
If the Father, would ever cease to exist,
which is impossible,
356
00:18:10,756 --> 00:18:13,759
the Son and the Holy Spirit
would cease to exist as well
357
00:18:13,842 --> 00:18:15,844
because their life comes from the Father.
358
00:18:15,844 --> 00:18:19,056
They're not self existence,
they're not un begotten.
359
00:18:19,056 --> 00:18:22,226
The Father is un begotten. Okay, now
360
00:18:24,895 --> 00:18:25,771
what would happen if
361
00:18:25,771 --> 00:18:28,816
somebody dammed up the river
362
00:18:30,192 --> 00:18:32,945
so that it, you know,
363
00:18:32,945 --> 00:18:35,155
went off and dried up?
364
00:18:35,155 --> 00:18:36,615
What would happen to the spring?
365
00:18:36,615 --> 00:18:39,618
Would it still be alive?
366
00:18:40,285 --> 00:18:40,494
Yeah.
367
00:18:40,494 --> 00:18:42,121
Yeah, it would still be alive.
368
00:18:42,121 --> 00:18:44,289
It wouldn't, say so.
369
00:18:44,289 --> 00:18:46,041
And all of this is impossible.
370
00:18:46,041 --> 00:18:50,170
But if Jesus and the Holy Spirit
were to somehow cease to exist,
371
00:18:50,379 --> 00:18:51,922
the Father would still exist.
372
00:18:51,922 --> 00:18:54,675
He does not depend on them
for his existence.
373
00:18:54,675 --> 00:18:57,344
They depend on him for their existence.
374
00:18:57,344 --> 00:18:58,679
So. Okay.
375
00:18:58,679 --> 00:18:59,680
Do you see that?
376
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,599
So, yeah, the spring is eternal.
377
00:19:02,599 --> 00:19:04,476
It's the source of everything.
378
00:19:04,476 --> 00:19:10,023
And Jesus and the Holy Spirit
depend on their life from the Father.
379
00:19:10,399 --> 00:19:13,277
And that's why, again,
why he's called the Son.
380
00:19:13,277 --> 00:19:14,903
Because. Yeah, he does.
381
00:19:14,903 --> 00:19:16,405
He's not self existent.
382
00:19:16,405 --> 00:19:19,908
The Father is okay,
But all of this is an eternity.
383
00:19:19,908 --> 00:19:23,787
As I said, if that spring is eternal,
then so is the river.
384
00:19:24,037 --> 00:19:27,082
So it's not like there's a difference
in time or anything like that.
385
00:19:27,457 --> 00:19:29,960
If one's eternal,
then they're all eternal.
386
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,462
But they're dependent on him. Okay,
387
00:19:33,714 --> 00:19:36,842
So There's a Trinity diminish our
388
00:19:38,343 --> 00:19:39,636
or does it make him greater?
389
00:19:39,636 --> 00:19:42,514
If you think of Allah as the father. Okay.
390
00:19:42,514 --> 00:19:47,686
If you think of the Trinity and
the Orthodox, you know, original teaching.
391
00:19:48,061 --> 00:19:49,771
Does that make the father less?
392
00:19:49,771 --> 00:19:52,774
Does that make all it less,
or does it make him greater?
393
00:19:53,025 --> 00:19:57,988
Well, in the Muslim view,
this would be our just the spring.
394
00:19:58,238 --> 00:20:00,324
There's no river or anything like that.
395
00:20:00,324 --> 00:20:02,075
This is a Christian view.
396
00:20:02,075 --> 00:20:04,786
All right. So which one is greater?
397
00:20:04,786 --> 00:20:09,541
Just just being a a pool by yourself
or a pool that produces a river?
398
00:20:10,417 --> 00:20:13,420
Well, I would think a pool producing
a river is a lot greater.
399
00:20:13,420 --> 00:20:16,715
I mean, see, it's not taking away
from all of the have the sun.
400
00:20:16,715 --> 00:20:18,592
It's making him greater.
401
00:20:18,592 --> 00:20:22,262
That wow, he's not only he's
not just a he's not just a pool.
402
00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:23,055
Yeah.
403
00:20:23,055 --> 00:20:28,393
He's a pool that has given birth existence
to a whole river
404
00:20:28,393 --> 00:20:31,855
that ultimately flows down
to us here on here on the earth.
405
00:20:31,855 --> 00:20:32,648
Okay.
406
00:20:32,648 --> 00:20:37,402
So we're not diminishing Allah
when we teach the Trinity as Christians,
407
00:20:37,569 --> 00:20:42,324
we're making Allah greater than the
the Muslim concept of God would be.
408
00:20:43,951 --> 00:20:46,203
does that make sense to you?
409
00:20:46,203 --> 00:20:48,080
I don't know that
that makes sense to a muslim.
410
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:49,873
That's the that's the important question.
411
00:20:49,873 --> 00:20:52,793
But, hopefully it it should.
412
00:20:52,793 --> 00:20:55,796
Okay. All right.
413
00:20:56,171 --> 00:20:57,631
And it's the same question.
414
00:20:57,631 --> 00:20:57,923
Okay.
415
00:20:57,923 --> 00:21:00,968
This is the Muslim view of Allah.
416
00:21:01,301 --> 00:21:03,428
Okay. Let's say the sun in the sky.
417
00:21:03,428 --> 00:21:06,556
I don't know if they use
that illustration, but if they did, this
418
00:21:06,556 --> 00:21:09,685
would be the Muslim Allah.
419
00:21:09,768 --> 00:21:12,771
Okay, here's the Christian all okay.
420
00:21:13,730 --> 00:21:15,941
The Muslim one.
421
00:21:15,941 --> 00:21:16,650
The Christian one.
422
00:21:16,650 --> 00:21:19,444
Which one do you think is greater?
423
00:21:19,444 --> 00:21:20,862
Yeah. Christian I mean, yeah.
424
00:21:20,862 --> 00:21:22,572
Would you I mean wow.
425
00:21:22,572 --> 00:21:25,909
I mean, you know, I mean,
this is still great, but look at this.
426
00:21:25,909 --> 00:21:28,912
This is the sun that produces,
you know, wow.
427
00:21:28,954 --> 00:21:33,542
You know, light and beams and heating
and air, everything coming out from it.
428
00:21:33,667 --> 00:21:34,835
And see, this is a father.
429
00:21:34,835 --> 00:21:38,422
He is so beyond comprehension that, yeah,
430
00:21:38,463 --> 00:21:41,842
he can't exist by himself
that he's, you know,
431
00:21:42,092 --> 00:21:46,596
produced the son, the Holy Spirit,
all of these magnificent things.
432
00:21:46,596 --> 00:21:49,599
This is the father,
you know, of the Bible.
433
00:21:49,850 --> 00:21:53,061
This is the, the all of that
we're bringing to the Muslims these
434
00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:55,022
so we're not taking away from him.
435
00:21:55,022 --> 00:21:57,816
And we say, well,
there's also a son and the Holy Spirit.
436
00:21:57,816 --> 00:22:00,819
It doesn't make him any less,
you know, any more
437
00:22:00,819 --> 00:22:04,573
than all of the sun flares and all that
make the sun less, you know,
438
00:22:04,573 --> 00:22:08,201
it doesn't it doesn't it,
it makes it that much greater.
439
00:22:08,827 --> 00:22:11,204
So that's the exciting part of it,
you know, when we
440
00:22:11,204 --> 00:22:14,207
when we share the Trinity with, with,
the Muslims, it.
441
00:22:14,458 --> 00:22:14,666
Yeah.
442
00:22:14,666 --> 00:22:18,003
We're not diminishing
the Father Allah in anyway.
443
00:22:19,004 --> 00:22:20,672
we're, we're realizing he's
444
00:22:20,672 --> 00:22:23,675
even greater than what any of us thought.
445
00:22:24,468 --> 00:22:26,428
Or would that they might imagine.
446
00:22:26,428 --> 00:22:28,764
But, you know, Muslims rarely hear
any of this.
447
00:22:28,764 --> 00:22:32,434
They usually hear, yeah.
448
00:22:32,434 --> 00:22:35,562
Explanations like the egg or something
that don't make any sense.
449
00:22:36,021 --> 00:22:39,566
And the problem with most
Western explanations of the Trinity
450
00:22:39,566 --> 00:22:42,694
is that in no sense is the son begotten.
451
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,572
In fact, in no sense is he really a son.
452
00:22:45,572 --> 00:22:48,200
He just those are names
father, son and Holy Spirit.
453
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:54,039
But they're they're essentially
three brothers, that, you know,
454
00:22:54,289 --> 00:22:57,292
you give different names to them,
but it's not like
455
00:22:57,667 --> 00:23:00,295
Jesus came from the father.
456
00:23:00,295 --> 00:23:03,715
Most Western Christians, you know,
like I say, after I left Jehovah's
457
00:23:03,715 --> 00:23:08,011
Witnesses, I spent years asking
people explain how he is a son.
458
00:23:09,221 --> 00:23:11,640
Can't explain it, but he's the son.
459
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,643
Yeah, but
it means he had to come from the father.
460
00:23:14,976 --> 00:23:16,144
Yeah. Can't explain it.
461
00:23:16,144 --> 00:23:17,854
It's a mystery, you know.
462
00:23:17,854 --> 00:23:21,024
But it is interesting,
you know, the early Christians
463
00:23:21,024 --> 00:23:24,027
that they nearly all
464
00:23:24,528 --> 00:23:28,115
use that
same illustration of the sun in the sky.
465
00:23:28,573 --> 00:23:29,616
And it's interesting.
466
00:23:29,616 --> 00:23:32,994
And the orthodox church is
they use that today and I visited
467
00:23:32,994 --> 00:23:36,957
a Coptic church
a matter of probably 30 years ago.
468
00:23:36,957 --> 00:23:42,254
And I asked the bishop after church,
you know, I went up to talk to the bishop
469
00:23:42,254 --> 00:23:45,257
to ask them some questions,
what they believe and all that.
470
00:23:45,715 --> 00:23:49,177
So I told him about the illustration
of the sun and he said, Yeah,
471
00:23:49,177 --> 00:23:50,637
that's exactly what we teach.
472
00:23:50,637 --> 00:23:52,514
You know, it's still like I say, it’s
still what
473
00:23:52,514 --> 00:23:54,099
eastern Christians are teaching?
474
00:23:54,099 --> 00:23:57,102
So maybe, yeah, maybe God had that in mind
475
00:23:57,352 --> 00:24:00,230
rather than the shamrock to explain to us
476
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,443
the Trinity and how that works.
477
00:24:04,693 --> 00:24:10,115
So this is if you Google Trinity or,
you know, picture of the Trinity,
478
00:24:10,115 --> 00:24:13,368
Google images or something like that,
you'll see this all over.
479
00:24:13,368 --> 00:24:17,247
I mean, this, this exact picture
or something like it, a triangle.
480
00:24:17,289 --> 00:24:19,666
Say this is a trinity. Well, no,
I'm sorry.
481
00:24:19,666 --> 00:24:23,462
That is not an orthodox
explanation of the Trinity.
482
00:24:23,795 --> 00:24:26,506
Where is the source and what sense
483
00:24:26,506 --> 00:24:30,218
is one of those corners the Son begotten?
484
00:24:30,469 --> 00:24:32,345
Where does any that exist?
485
00:24:32,345 --> 00:24:34,264
This is just a triangle.
486
00:24:34,264 --> 00:24:37,642
The other thing is, as I mentioned,
if you took away the Son
487
00:24:37,642 --> 00:24:40,312
and the Holy Spirit,
the Father would still exist.
488
00:24:40,312 --> 00:24:42,481
He doesn't depend on them in a triangle.
489
00:24:42,481 --> 00:24:44,941
If you took away the Son
and the Holy Spirit,
490
00:24:44,941 --> 00:24:46,651
yeah, the whole triangle would collapse.
491
00:24:46,651 --> 00:24:48,612
So there would be no more God.
492
00:24:48,612 --> 00:24:52,991
But see, God, the Father is always there,
whether Jesus is His Son, Jesus,
493
00:24:52,991 --> 00:24:54,159
and the Holy Spirit were there or not.
494
00:24:54,159 --> 00:24:56,620
Again,
we're talking theoretical because Jesus
495
00:24:57,829 --> 00:25:00,207
and the Holy Spirit will always,
always be here.
496
00:25:00,207 --> 00:25:04,294
So we're just talking in theory
to help us understand the concepts.
497
00:25:04,294 --> 00:25:06,379
You know?
498
00:25:06,379 --> 00:25:08,381
Okay,
499
00:25:08,381 --> 00:25:12,260
A big reason for the confusion
among Western Christians,
500
00:25:13,261 --> 00:25:15,305
why this didn't happen
with Greek Christians,
501
00:25:15,305 --> 00:25:18,308
because they were reading it in Greek.
502
00:25:18,475 --> 00:25:21,853
It isn't helped
by most of the English Bible translations.
503
00:25:21,853 --> 00:25:25,524
And actually this goes back
to the Latin translations too.
504
00:25:27,150 --> 00:25:28,777
Of course,
when we're dealing with English,
505
00:25:28,777 --> 00:25:32,739
the translators themselves usually have
a wrong concept of the Trinity,
506
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,034
and so they translate several key verses
either
507
00:25:36,034 --> 00:25:40,330
incorrectly or inartfully,
I put it that way.
508
00:25:40,330 --> 00:25:40,789
In other words,
509
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:45,585
they translate a lot of verses in a way
that are going to confuse the reader
510
00:25:46,169 --> 00:25:50,715
that in Greek you wouldn't
have the same level of confusion.
511
00:25:51,341 --> 00:25:55,053
So one of them is John one one
we're all familiar with this
512
00:25:55,303 --> 00:25:58,932
in the beginning was the word,
and the word was with God
513
00:25:59,182 --> 00:26:00,934
and the word was God.
514
00:26:00,934 --> 00:26:05,522
Okay, we've all heard that verse,
I'm sure, hundreds of times.
515
00:26:05,855 --> 00:26:10,694
And when you look at it, I mean,
you can say it, but does that make sense?
516
00:26:11,111 --> 00:26:14,114
He was with God and he was God.
517
00:26:14,197 --> 00:26:16,866
It sounds like your double talk.
518
00:26:16,866 --> 00:26:20,078
Doing double talk,
you know, he's with God, but he is God.
519
00:26:20,287 --> 00:26:22,581
How can he be with God if he is God?
520
00:26:22,581 --> 00:26:27,586
Okay,
when many Christians say that Jesus is God
521
00:26:27,586 --> 00:26:30,547
and that's perfectly orthodox,
they say Jesus is God,
522
00:26:31,214 --> 00:26:35,218
but so many Christians,
when they say Jesus is God, they mean he's
523
00:26:35,218 --> 00:26:39,097
the same person as the Father,
which is not correct.
524
00:26:39,431 --> 00:26:42,434
They are two distinct
and different people.
525
00:26:42,892 --> 00:26:44,811
And I gave this message
526
00:26:46,146 --> 00:26:48,189
in Holmes
527
00:26:48,189 --> 00:26:51,192
County, Ohio, at a Beachy Amish church.
528
00:26:51,693 --> 00:26:56,281
I was giving a message on Jehovah's
Witnesses, trying to explain their errors
529
00:26:56,615 --> 00:27:01,870
and where they're wrong and their
understanding of Jesus and the Trinity.
530
00:27:02,078 --> 00:27:03,371
So I was explaining all this stuff.
531
00:27:03,371 --> 00:27:07,542
We had a Pentecostal woman
who was attending that day,
532
00:27:07,917 --> 00:27:10,920
and the Pentecostals,
the United Pentecostals,
533
00:27:11,463 --> 00:27:12,839
they don't believe in the Trinity.
534
00:27:12,839 --> 00:27:16,551
They believe there's just the Father
and that he is the Son
535
00:27:16,843 --> 00:27:18,345
and that he is the Holy Spirit.
536
00:27:18,345 --> 00:27:20,221
It's just
537
00:27:20,221 --> 00:27:23,183
three manifestations of one being okay.
538
00:27:23,183 --> 00:27:25,894
And so I was trying to explain all this.
539
00:27:25,894 --> 00:27:27,771
They are three persons.
540
00:27:27,771 --> 00:27:32,108
And she kept interrupting,
you know, unlike a good Mennonite
541
00:27:32,275 --> 00:27:35,195
young lady,
you know, no, they're not three people.
542
00:27:35,195 --> 00:27:37,697
They're three manifestations,
you know, And it's like
543
00:27:39,199 --> 00:27:40,992
so and it wasn't a Q&A.
544
00:27:40,992 --> 00:27:45,080
I was trying to give a message
and yeah, I never got finished
545
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,833
because she just kept interrupting
and arguing the whole evening.
546
00:27:48,833 --> 00:27:51,920
But that's yeah, so many Western
Christians have it so confused.
547
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,049
They don't understand what they mean
when they say Jesus is God
548
00:27:57,258 --> 00:28:01,179
now in John one one
what the Greek literally says,
549
00:28:01,179 --> 00:28:06,393
if you're just looking at the Greek,
it says in the beginning was the word
550
00:28:06,893 --> 00:28:11,648
and the word was with the God
and the word was God.
551
00:28:11,981 --> 00:28:14,693
So in the Greek,
there's a little distinction there
552
00:28:14,693 --> 00:28:18,405
when it says the word was with the God
and the word was God.
553
00:28:18,863 --> 00:28:21,950
So what John is trying to communicate
554
00:28:22,450 --> 00:28:25,453
is that the word that's Jesus, of course,
555
00:28:25,578 --> 00:28:29,749
that He was with the Father
and he puts the
556
00:28:30,250 --> 00:28:34,087
the in there,
which in Greek is the word ho
557
00:28:35,255 --> 00:28:37,340
and then the word was God.
558
00:28:37,340 --> 00:28:40,343
He doesn't put it in the second phrase.
559
00:28:40,844 --> 00:28:44,597
And so what he's trying to get across
is that Jesus
560
00:28:45,890 --> 00:28:48,184
see in Greek you can say this, that
561
00:28:48,184 --> 00:28:51,813
Jesus is Theos, He's God,
His nature is God.
562
00:28:52,147 --> 00:28:54,524
We don't use the word God in English
that way.
563
00:28:54,524 --> 00:28:58,695
When we say God,
we think of a person, the deity in heaven.
564
00:28:58,695 --> 00:29:02,115
We don't we don't think of it
as a, we talk about somebody’s nature.
565
00:29:02,574 --> 00:29:05,577
Now, boy,
there's one or two English translations
566
00:29:05,577 --> 00:29:09,122
that say in the beginning was the word,
and the word was with God.
567
00:29:09,122 --> 00:29:14,127
And the word was divine,
which maybe is not quite as literal,
568
00:29:14,127 --> 00:29:17,547
but it conveys
accurately what it's saying.
569
00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:20,842
What John is trying
to get across to his readers, that
570
00:29:20,925 --> 00:29:23,928
Jesus was with the Father
and Jesus was divine.
571
00:29:23,928 --> 00:29:25,597
He is the same nature.
572
00:29:25,597 --> 00:29:29,392
His nature is Theos
the same as the Fathers nature.
573
00:29:29,726 --> 00:29:33,646
Just like that water
that we use, that the water in the river
574
00:29:33,646 --> 00:29:38,193
is the same substance, the same nature
as the water in the spring.
575
00:29:38,193 --> 00:29:40,945
There's no difference
between the two. Okay.
576
00:29:42,572 --> 00:29:44,199
Does that make sense?
577
00:29:44,199 --> 00:29:46,993
You're still with me. Okay.
578
00:29:46,993 --> 00:29:48,703
Jesus has the same nature.
579
00:29:48,703 --> 00:29:50,872
He's not human. He's not an angel.
580
00:29:50,872 --> 00:29:52,749
He is fully divine.
581
00:29:52,749 --> 00:29:56,419
He is true God in the sense of his nature
or substance.
582
00:29:56,795 --> 00:29:59,881
Here we're using God
as a descriptive noun,
583
00:30:00,131 --> 00:30:03,885
as describing the nature of a being.
584
00:30:03,885 --> 00:30:04,636
Okay?
585
00:30:04,636 --> 00:30:07,597
And that's what we mean
when we say Jesus is God,
586
00:30:07,847 --> 00:30:10,850
that he has the nature of the Father.
587
00:30:11,142 --> 00:30:14,020
Okay? We don't mean he is the Father.
588
00:30:14,020 --> 00:30:15,855
All right.
589
00:30:15,855 --> 00:30:16,481
Okay. Now what?
590
00:30:16,481 --> 00:30:18,566
Talk about the love of the Father.
591
00:30:18,566 --> 00:30:22,362
Now, another aspect to share with Muslims
592
00:30:23,947 --> 00:30:26,282
and that we all know
about the love of the Father.
593
00:30:26,282 --> 00:30:30,495
But how this ties into the Trinity
and is something
594
00:30:30,495 --> 00:30:35,041
I would have never thought of,
you know, when I was a young person.
595
00:30:36,459 --> 00:30:39,796
We all know first John 4:16 God is love.
596
00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:43,299
Okay, now let me ask
597
00:30:43,299 --> 00:30:46,511
you about just that, God is love.
598
00:30:46,511 --> 00:30:49,472
How does that tie into the Trinity?
599
00:30:49,889 --> 00:30:52,725
When we say God is love,
600
00:30:52,725 --> 00:30:56,980
we don't mean that sometimes he loves
or that he's a loving God.
601
00:30:57,188 --> 00:31:00,108
Muslims would believe that
Allah is a loving God.
602
00:31:00,108 --> 00:31:01,568
They would teach that.
603
00:31:01,568 --> 00:31:05,363
But the Quran does not say Allah is love.
604
00:31:06,030 --> 00:31:08,199
But our Bible says God is love.
605
00:31:08,199 --> 00:31:12,704
That means it's in his nature
from the beginning,
606
00:31:12,704 --> 00:31:14,330
which for him means eternity.
607
00:31:14,330 --> 00:31:18,001
Okay, now can you love
608
00:31:19,752 --> 00:31:22,714
if you are the only person
in the universe,
609
00:31:22,964 --> 00:31:25,967
there was nobody else in existence
could you love?
610
00:31:26,801 --> 00:31:29,262
I mean, you might have a sweet
disposition,
611
00:31:29,262 --> 00:31:33,016
but how could you love
when there's not anyone else around?
612
00:31:33,516 --> 00:31:37,228
So even if the Bible didn't
tell us about the Eternal Son,
613
00:31:37,812 --> 00:31:41,441
we would have to deduce his existence
from that statement.
614
00:31:41,441 --> 00:31:42,400
God is love.
615
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:43,359
In other words,
616
00:31:43,359 --> 00:31:48,489
if He is love, if that's his essence, that
means he's always had somebody to love.
617
00:31:48,698 --> 00:31:51,576
Because love can't exist by itself.
618
00:31:51,576 --> 00:31:53,286
It can't exist in a vacuum.
619
00:31:53,286 --> 00:31:54,913
It has to have a recipient.
620
00:31:54,913 --> 00:32:00,126
You can't just say, yeah, I love
and you don't put anyone.
621
00:32:00,585 --> 00:32:03,379
You don't. Yeah, finish the sentence.
622
00:32:03,379 --> 00:32:05,798
I just love. Well, who do you love?
623
00:32:05,798 --> 00:32:08,092
No one, I just love, you know.
624
00:32:08,092 --> 00:32:10,929
No, that's not love. I mean, love.
625
00:32:10,929 --> 00:32:13,932
There's somebody you love,
you know, Or it can be something,
626
00:32:14,307 --> 00:32:16,267
but it can't exist by itself.
627
00:32:16,267 --> 00:32:20,480
So if God is love, that tells us
there has always been
628
00:32:20,772 --> 00:32:23,524
somebody that he loves.
629
00:32:23,524 --> 00:32:26,319
Love is an essential part of God's being.
630
00:32:26,319 --> 00:32:29,280
He didn't become love
at some point in time.
631
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,783
He has always been love.
632
00:32:32,867 --> 00:32:34,744
If God has always been love,
633
00:32:34,744 --> 00:32:37,789
I think God has always
had someone to love.
634
00:32:38,581 --> 00:32:41,542
Okay, See why we have to have the Trinity
or not necessarily
635
00:32:41,542 --> 00:32:43,503
the Trinity,
but at least the Father and the Son.
636
00:32:43,503 --> 00:32:48,049
There has to be somebody
that he has always loved.
637
00:32:49,175 --> 00:32:51,761
And that person is the Son.
638
00:32:51,761 --> 00:32:54,806
Now Muslims, as I said,
Muslims will say Allah is loving,
639
00:32:55,515 --> 00:32:58,518
but not Allah is love.
640
00:33:00,436 --> 00:33:04,607
yeah, In Muslim
theology, Allah has not always
641
00:33:04,607 --> 00:33:07,860
been a God of love because he hasn't
always had someone with him to love.
642
00:33:07,860 --> 00:33:10,279
They would say Allah is eternal.
643
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:11,698
Well then has he always loved?
644
00:33:11,698 --> 00:33:15,326
No, because in their view of the universe.
645
00:33:15,618 --> 00:33:18,329
Yeah. Allah existed from eternity.
646
00:33:18,329 --> 00:33:22,417
And it was who knows how many,
you know, trillion billion
647
00:33:24,210 --> 00:33:25,378
years afterwards that
648
00:33:25,378 --> 00:33:29,048
then you get angels or other things
in existence that he could love.
649
00:33:29,424 --> 00:33:33,928
But see, in our God of the Bible,
he is love
650
00:33:33,928 --> 00:33:38,307
because he's always had from eternity
someone to love.
651
00:33:38,850 --> 00:33:41,519
So the Trinity makes Allah
the Father greater
652
00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:45,273
because it reveals
that He has always loved, He is love.
653
00:33:45,732 --> 00:33:48,192
See, it’s a lot
654
00:33:48,192 --> 00:33:49,986
greater God, a God
655
00:33:49,986 --> 00:33:53,364
who is love versus a God who is loving.
656
00:33:53,781 --> 00:33:57,827
You want a God who is loving
but a God who is love.
657
00:33:57,994 --> 00:34:01,372
That's at a much higher level that always,
658
00:34:01,789 --> 00:34:04,167
as long as there's been a Father,
which is forever.
659
00:34:04,167 --> 00:34:07,045
I mean, you can't, you know,
you try to think back of eternity.
660
00:34:07,045 --> 00:34:08,963
I used to try it when I was a kid.
661
00:34:08,963 --> 00:34:12,800
I don't try anymore because I know it
just, it gets crazy when you start
662
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,679
to think of forever and there's you know,
it's always, always, always.
663
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:16,888
Yeah.
664
00:34:16,888 --> 00:34:20,016
No beginning there
But ya, the Father means.
665
00:34:20,016 --> 00:34:23,436
Yeah that's always been love All that time
666
00:34:23,728 --> 00:34:27,857
it's always been love because He's always
had his Son with him to love.
667
00:34:29,734 --> 00:34:30,109
Okay.
668
00:34:30,109 --> 00:34:34,155
Another reason why the Trinity
has not been properly explained to Muslims
669
00:34:35,907 --> 00:34:37,408
is Western theologians
670
00:34:37,408 --> 00:34:41,037
confuse nature and order.
671
00:34:41,245 --> 00:34:44,791
Okay, so in your family.
672
00:34:45,083 --> 00:34:47,835
Okay,
673
00:34:47,835 --> 00:34:50,213
you and your Father,
674
00:34:50,213 --> 00:34:55,009
whoever you are,
are of the exact same nature, Okay.
675
00:34:55,426 --> 00:34:58,429
Are you equal in order?
676
00:34:59,263 --> 00:35:00,932
No. I mean, does
677
00:35:00,932 --> 00:35:03,935
your dad do what you tell him
or do you do what he tells you?
678
00:35:04,727 --> 00:35:07,605
I hope it's, I hope It's the second one.
679
00:35:07,605 --> 00:35:09,524
So he's your head.
680
00:35:09,524 --> 00:35:12,276
Okay, so there's a difference.
681
00:35:12,276 --> 00:35:13,361
In order.
682
00:35:13,361 --> 00:35:14,862
You're equal in nature.
683
00:35:14,862 --> 00:35:16,948
You're equally human.
684
00:35:16,948 --> 00:35:21,911
But there's a difference in order
that your Father is your head.
685
00:35:22,328 --> 00:35:26,541
That, Yes,
Jesus said I came to do my Father's will.
686
00:35:26,541 --> 00:35:27,708
I didn't come on my own.
687
00:35:27,708 --> 00:35:28,793
My Father sent me.
688
00:35:28,793 --> 00:35:31,796
He makes it very clear
that there is an order there.
689
00:35:32,213 --> 00:35:34,882
Okay, so Jesus and the Father
690
00:35:34,882 --> 00:35:38,845
are equal in nature,
but they're different in order.
691
00:35:39,428 --> 00:35:40,263
Okay?
692
00:35:40,263 --> 00:35:43,224
That the Father is the head of Christ.
693
00:35:43,224 --> 00:35:45,560
The Bible tells us that very clearly.
694
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,105
And Jesus made that very clear
while he was here on the Earth,
695
00:35:49,438 --> 00:35:52,441
that his Father was his head.
696
00:35:52,525 --> 00:35:56,237
But that doesn't make him a lesser deity
than the Father
697
00:35:56,445 --> 00:36:02,577
any more than you are a lesser human
being than your father here on the earth.
698
00:36:02,577 --> 00:36:04,662
You are equally human.
699
00:36:04,662 --> 00:36:07,665
But there is an order there, a headship.
700
00:36:07,790 --> 00:36:10,501
Okay?
There's a headship within the Trinity.
701
00:36:12,753 --> 00:36:13,671
The Father is
702
00:36:13,671 --> 00:36:16,757
the head of Christ,
First Corinthians 11 three.
703
00:36:17,425 --> 00:36:20,511
I want you to know
that the head of every man is Christ.
704
00:36:20,887 --> 00:36:24,473
The head of woman is man
and the head of Christ is God.
705
00:36:24,473 --> 00:36:26,058
I mean it’s so simple.
706
00:36:26,058 --> 00:36:27,226
It's amazing
707
00:36:27,226 --> 00:36:30,855
that Western Christians can read that
and then turn right around and deny it.
708
00:36:30,855 --> 00:36:32,231
You know that.
709
00:36:32,231 --> 00:36:35,735
No, the Father is not His head, well,
it's right there.
710
00:36:36,194 --> 00:36:39,197
And sometimes I say, well, that was just
when he was on earth, when he was a man.
711
00:36:39,363 --> 00:36:43,618
No, this is Paul writing long after
Jesus had returned to heaven, you know,
712
00:36:43,659 --> 00:36:46,579
and he didn't say he was the head.
He said he is the hand.
713
00:36:46,579 --> 00:36:49,582
So it's yeah, it's very clear.
714
00:36:50,166 --> 00:36:52,960
Then Jesus said to them,
when you lift up the Son of man,
715
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,256
then you will know that I am he
and that I do nothing of myself.
716
00:36:57,673 --> 00:37:00,676
But as my Father taught me,
I speak these things
717
00:37:00,843 --> 00:37:03,346
and he who sent me is with me.
718
00:37:03,346 --> 00:37:06,057
The Father has not left me alone,
719
00:37:06,057 --> 00:37:10,144
for I always do the things that please him.
Doesn't say.
720
00:37:10,144 --> 00:37:13,564
The Father always does
the things that please Jesus.
721
00:37:13,773 --> 00:37:14,357
Not again.
722
00:37:14,357 --> 00:37:17,443
That there's a difference in,
you know, that they struggle or, you know,
723
00:37:17,902 --> 00:37:19,570
fight with each other
or anything like that.
724
00:37:19,570 --> 00:37:22,615
But Jesus himself wanted us to understand.
725
00:37:22,615 --> 00:37:26,077
He wanted to give that glory
to his Father.
726
00:37:26,369 --> 00:37:28,704
And I mean, he repeats it all throughout.
727
00:37:28,704 --> 00:37:31,958
John, You see the same kind of statement
over and over again.
728
00:37:31,958 --> 00:37:35,670
He wants us to respect
the Father as His head,
729
00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:38,881
and He doesn't resent
having a head in any way
730
00:37:40,383 --> 00:37:42,635
not spoken on my own authority.
731
00:37:42,635 --> 00:37:45,638
But the Father who sent me
gave me a command,
732
00:37:45,638 --> 00:37:48,641
what I should say,
and what I should speak.
733
00:37:48,849 --> 00:37:49,684
Okay.
734
00:37:49,684 --> 00:37:53,229
So there's a difference
in order in headship there.
735
00:37:53,437 --> 00:37:56,440
I mean, Jesus made this very clear,
736
00:37:57,233 --> 00:38:00,736
as Paul puts it in
first Corinthians eight for us,
737
00:38:00,778 --> 00:38:04,490
there is one God,
the Father of whom are all things.
738
00:38:04,490 --> 00:38:08,536
And we for him and one Lord Jesus Christ,
739
00:38:08,828 --> 00:38:12,498
through whom are all things and through
whom we live.
740
00:38:12,915 --> 00:38:17,003
So He's trying to show
the Father is the ultimate source of whom,
741
00:38:17,503 --> 00:38:20,172
and everything is through
742
00:38:20,172 --> 00:38:23,801
Jesus Christ,
that the Father is the ultimate creator.
743
00:38:23,801 --> 00:38:27,972
But everything was actually created
by the Son, and
744
00:38:27,972 --> 00:38:31,267
the Father used
the Son to do the creating.
745
00:38:33,811 --> 00:38:36,814
And then Paul tells us at the end
746
00:38:36,814 --> 00:38:40,985
that when all things are made subject
to him, that's Jesus.
747
00:38:40,985 --> 00:38:45,364
Then the Son himself will also be subject
to Him, who put all things under Him
748
00:38:45,656 --> 00:38:47,616
that God may be all in all.
749
00:38:47,616 --> 00:38:50,077
So He tells us, even in eternity,
750
00:38:50,077 --> 00:38:54,123
that the Father has set up
Jesus as the King of His kingdom.
751
00:38:54,123 --> 00:38:58,377
But in the end, the Son will turn
all of that over to the Father
752
00:38:58,836 --> 00:39:02,882
and will be subject to Him,
not that He is not subject now, but
753
00:39:03,299 --> 00:39:06,302
that He will not continue
to serve as King.
754
00:39:07,845 --> 00:39:11,140
And some people think some Bibles
even translate this in a way
755
00:39:11,140 --> 00:39:12,975
that makes it sound like he's
talking about Jesus,
756
00:39:12,975 --> 00:39:16,062
which the early Christians
would have been scandalized, talking about
757
00:39:16,062 --> 00:39:20,775
the Father who alone has immortality
dwelling in unapproachable light
758
00:39:21,150 --> 00:39:26,697
whom no man has seen or can see, to whom
be honor and everlasting power.
759
00:39:26,697 --> 00:39:29,700
A man Now when it says that he alone
760
00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:33,120
has immortality,
doesn't mean that Jesus is not immortal.
761
00:39:33,496 --> 00:39:36,332
But here why it says that is because His
762
00:39:37,583 --> 00:39:40,086
existence originates in the Father.
763
00:39:40,086 --> 00:39:45,841
He is the only person in the universe
who is self existent.
764
00:39:45,841 --> 00:39:49,720
He depends on nothing else for his life.
765
00:39:49,970 --> 00:39:52,973
And that's
why he says, who alone has immortality.
766
00:39:52,973 --> 00:39:56,394
Jesus, of course, is inmortal in the sense
that he's ever lasting,
767
00:39:56,894 --> 00:40:00,189
but he's not immortal in the sense
that he's unbegotten
768
00:40:00,439 --> 00:40:03,442
because his life depends on the Father.
769
00:40:04,276 --> 00:40:05,486
Okay?
770
00:40:05,486 --> 00:40:08,322
In fact, when the Scriptures refer to God,
771
00:40:08,322 --> 00:40:11,158
they're nearly always referring
to the Father.
772
00:40:11,158 --> 00:40:13,786
It’s correct refer to Jesus as God.
773
00:40:13,786 --> 00:40:16,747
I mean, you know,
that title is given in the Scripture.
774
00:40:16,747 --> 00:40:20,167
But normally when you see the word God in
Scripture, he's talking about the Father.
775
00:40:20,167 --> 00:40:23,170
I would say about 98% of the time
776
00:40:23,838 --> 00:40:26,132
we're talking now about headship.
777
00:40:26,132 --> 00:40:29,135
Now, this is the interesting thing, okay?
778
00:40:29,218 --> 00:40:30,136
And this is why,
779
00:40:31,512 --> 00:40:34,557
you know, if Muslims think that, okay,
the existence of Jesus
780
00:40:34,557 --> 00:40:38,310
takes away from God, from the Father,
781
00:40:38,686 --> 00:40:41,939
what they don't understand is that God
782
00:40:42,982 --> 00:40:45,985
wants people to honor Jesus.
783
00:40:45,985 --> 00:40:47,778
So it's not like there's a rivalry there.
784
00:40:47,778 --> 00:40:51,115
So if Jesus wants us to glorify
His Father.
785
00:40:51,115 --> 00:40:54,034
He's always giving
credit and glory to His Father.
786
00:40:54,034 --> 00:40:57,788
Well,
guess what the Father wants us to honor
787
00:40:57,788 --> 00:41:01,125
and worship Him
just like we worship the Father.
788
00:41:01,500 --> 00:41:04,003
He's not an insecure God.
789
00:41:04,003 --> 00:41:07,006
He's eternally secure.
790
00:41:07,006 --> 00:41:11,510
He's the self existent one,
and He loves his Son so much.
791
00:41:11,802 --> 00:41:14,805
He wants people to honor his Son.
792
00:41:14,805 --> 00:41:19,185
And He's not jealous as if,
oh, if we give the Son honor the Father.
793
00:41:19,268 --> 00:41:23,689
Jesus said, The Father judges no one,
but has committed all judgment to the Son
794
00:41:24,106 --> 00:41:27,568
that all should honor the Son
just as they honor the Father.
795
00:41:28,068 --> 00:41:32,907
He who does not honor the Son, does
not honor the Father who sent him.
796
00:41:33,407 --> 00:41:36,702
So this is a neat thing in their
relationship that most humans aren't
797
00:41:36,702 --> 00:41:39,705
that secure, you know. But here
the Father.
798
00:41:39,997 --> 00:41:44,960
Yeah, he because love
is this very being that he doesn't
799
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,714
want to hog all glory for himself
or it wouldn't be hogging.
800
00:41:48,881 --> 00:41:51,467
He would have every right to.
But it's just not his nature.
801
00:41:51,467 --> 00:41:53,886
He wants to share that
just like he wants to.
802
00:41:53,886 --> 00:41:55,387
He wants to love.
803
00:41:55,387 --> 00:41:58,807
He wants his Son to get all of this
804
00:41:58,807 --> 00:42:01,810
worship and glory and honor from us.
805
00:42:01,810 --> 00:42:04,355
And that is His will.
806
00:42:04,355 --> 00:42:07,107
So, I mean, it’s
807
00:42:07,107 --> 00:42:11,987
such an example for all of us of how
we should be of wanting other people
808
00:42:12,279 --> 00:42:16,992
to share honor if we're in a position
of honor, that instead of being jealous,
809
00:42:16,992 --> 00:42:20,746
we don't want somebody else to get credit,
that, hey, we want other people
810
00:42:21,038 --> 00:42:23,707
to get credit and honor as well.
811
00:42:23,707 --> 00:42:27,753
Hebrews one six But when he again
brings the firstborn into the world,
812
00:42:28,003 --> 00:42:31,423
he says, Let all the angels of God
worship him.
813
00:42:31,590 --> 00:42:33,008
This is the Father saying this.
814
00:42:33,008 --> 00:42:36,637
He wants the angels
to worship His Son here.
815
00:42:36,637 --> 00:42:39,765
And I've been talking about the Son,
but the Holy Spirit, all these things
816
00:42:39,765 --> 00:42:44,228
would be true as well, that, you know,
his existence is from the Father.
817
00:42:44,603 --> 00:42:47,773
He's eternal as well as the Son is.
818
00:42:47,773 --> 00:42:49,024
Okay.
819
00:42:49,024 --> 00:42:50,609
So if you're witnessing to a muslim,
820
00:42:50,609 --> 00:42:54,947
hopefully you can help him or her
to see that embracing the Trinity does
821
00:42:54,947 --> 00:42:59,743
not diminish Allah in some way
that, you know, guess what?
822
00:42:59,743 --> 00:43:02,663
Allah is far greater
than you ever imagined.
823
00:43:02,663 --> 00:43:03,080
Yeah.
824
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,834
Let me tell you about what
the Bible reveals about Allah.
825
00:43:08,002 --> 00:43:11,005
Thanks for listening to this episode
with David Bercot.
826
00:43:11,297 --> 00:43:14,508
A few times throughout this lecture,
he mentions how he was once a Jehovah's
827
00:43:14,508 --> 00:43:17,761
Witness, and we interviewed him about that
and why he left.
828
00:43:17,886 --> 00:43:21,265
You can find that episode
linked in the show notes down below.
829
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,476
We also have an email newsletter
that you can sign up for
830
00:43:24,476 --> 00:43:27,855
on our website
at anabaptistperspectives.org.
831
00:43:28,022 --> 00:43:31,025
If you enjoy what we're doing here,
make sure to subscribe
832
00:43:31,108 --> 00:43:34,778
and leave a rating on
wherever your favorite podcasting app is.
833
00:43:34,778 --> 00:43:36,155
It really does help.
834
00:43:36,155 --> 00:43:39,158
Thanks so much
and we'll catch you in the next episode.
835
00:47:56,582 --> 00:47:59,585
Anyway, so
836
00:47:59,793 --> 00:48:00,419
just the opposite.
837
00:48:00,419 --> 00:48:03,463
The Trinity is magnifies Allah or God.
838
00:48:04,256 --> 00:48:07,259
All right, that is my presentation.
839
00:48:07,426 --> 00:48:11,013
So it took less time than I thought,
which is good.
840
00:48:11,221 --> 00:48:15,225
Do any of you you want to take a break
first or do you want to do Q&A?
841
00:48:15,893 --> 00:48:17,644
You guys are tough. Yeah.
842
00:48:17,644 --> 00:48:19,313
Yeah. We're going to go to Iraq. Yeah, we.
843
00:48:23,525 --> 00:48:27,112
Did. Okay, So, yeah. Any.
844
00:48:27,362 --> 00:48:28,196
Any questions?
845
00:48:28,196 --> 00:48:31,199
I hope you have some.
846
00:48:33,327 --> 00:48:36,371
This is
this kind of relates to the Trinity.
847
00:48:36,538 --> 00:48:40,083
But so when Jesus came down to Earth was
848
00:48:40,667 --> 00:48:45,631
do you think it was kind
of a voluntary thing or do you think God
849
00:48:46,173 --> 00:48:49,384
specifically said,
I would like you to go down and do this?
850
00:48:50,594 --> 00:48:53,597
Or do you think they had a conversation
about it?
851
00:48:55,098 --> 00:48:58,018
Yeah. So?
852
00:48:58,018 --> 00:49:00,062
Well,
Jesus said I didn't come of my own accord.
853
00:49:00,062 --> 00:49:02,439
The Father sent me.
854
00:49:02,439 --> 00:49:03,982
Back.
855
00:49:03,982 --> 00:49:06,068
In saying that to me it's
856
00:49:06,068 --> 00:49:09,488
unimaginable that the Father and the Son
would ever disagree on anything.
857
00:49:09,488 --> 00:49:12,282
So I think it's equally voluntary.
858
00:49:12,282 --> 00:49:13,742
Yeah. I don't think this bothered you.
859
00:49:13,742 --> 00:49:16,745
All right, you get down there, you know,
860
00:49:17,329 --> 00:49:22,000
But I think Jesus had the freedom.
861
00:49:22,793 --> 00:49:26,254
You know,
if we're talking theoretical to say no.
862
00:49:26,546 --> 00:49:30,425
In other words,
I think he came because he loved us,
863
00:49:30,926 --> 00:49:34,262
not only because
the Father wanted him to come,
864
00:49:34,262 --> 00:49:37,933
but I don't know that
the Father would have required him.
865
00:49:38,058 --> 00:49:38,934
I don't know.
866
00:49:38,934 --> 00:49:41,269
You know, he just said my Father sent me.
867
00:49:41,269 --> 00:49:44,022
But we know that
868
00:49:44,022 --> 00:49:46,900
everything else
we learn about Jesus, that,
869
00:49:46,900 --> 00:49:50,278
you know, he's
he died willingly because he he loved us.
870
00:49:51,029 --> 00:49:54,116
But he was also fulfilling
the Father's will.
871
00:49:54,116 --> 00:49:59,496
He wanted to make that really clear, that
you know, this was his Father's desire
872
00:49:59,788 --> 00:50:03,583
and trying to set the example, look,
if I, the eternal Son of God,
873
00:50:04,543 --> 00:50:06,753
do whatever my Father says,
874
00:50:06,753 --> 00:50:09,756
then yeah,
what excuse do we have here on the Earth?
875
00:50:09,756 --> 00:50:10,924
We're not eternal.
876
00:50:10,924 --> 00:50:12,843
That yeah, we're not going to do what God.
877
00:50:12,843 --> 00:50:13,510
God says.
878
00:50:13,510 --> 00:50:18,223
He's trying to help us say, look, I even I
you know, who am God?
879
00:50:18,223 --> 00:50:23,103
Who am, you know, eternal that I do
what the Father wishes me to do?
880
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:28,150
But, you know, we know and Philippians
that, you know, he humble himself.
881
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:30,819
It said he became a servant,
you know, willingly.
882
00:50:30,819 --> 00:50:32,112
So it wasn't.
883
00:50:32,112 --> 00:50:35,615
Yeah, I think they are so of one will.
884
00:50:35,615 --> 00:50:38,618
And one mind that that, you know, whatever
885
00:50:38,618 --> 00:50:41,830
the Father wants, the Son is automatically
going to think the same.
886
00:50:41,830 --> 00:50:44,916
But we're talking beyond human dimension.
887
00:50:44,916 --> 00:50:46,960
So I know when they talk about,
you know, when he says,
888
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,962
my Father gave me a command, well, yeah,
889
00:50:48,962 --> 00:50:52,924
I don't think the Father has to, you know,
speak or, or something like that.
890
00:50:52,924 --> 00:50:54,009
I mean it's,
891
00:50:54,009 --> 00:50:57,471
it's yeah, it's just beyond something
that humans would be able to understand.
892
00:50:57,471 --> 00:50:59,723
He's trying to help
us to understand that. But
893
00:51:01,266 --> 00:51:01,808
yeah, it's,
894
00:51:01,808 --> 00:51:04,895
it's like I say, it's
just a wonderful relationship.
895
00:51:04,895 --> 00:51:07,898
That would be the perfect model of
896
00:51:08,648 --> 00:51:13,070
what a marriage
should be in among humans of just.
897
00:51:13,111 --> 00:51:16,698
Yeah,
they love each other so much that each one
898
00:51:16,698 --> 00:51:20,410
thinks of the other, you know, and each
one wants to please the other.
899
00:51:20,410 --> 00:51:23,622
And that. Yes.
900
00:51:24,498 --> 00:51:26,708
So I'm thinking of I'm
trying to think like a muslim.
901
00:51:26,708 --> 00:51:29,503
Right. Okay.
902
00:51:29,503 --> 00:51:32,506
So and then
903
00:51:32,672 --> 00:51:35,675
the Father gives
some of the points of the Son and let's
904
00:51:36,218 --> 00:51:38,345
get some degree of nuance.
905
00:51:38,345 --> 00:51:42,599
Is that then that is some of the glory
of God is as we start glorifying Jesus,
906
00:51:43,183 --> 00:51:46,186
that diminished the glory
because the Father.
907
00:51:47,354 --> 00:51:48,647
It shouldn't.
908
00:51:48,647 --> 00:51:50,524
And the Father doesn't
look at it that way.
909
00:51:50,524 --> 00:51:52,234
But as I say, he's not insecure.
910
00:51:52,234 --> 00:51:54,402
So he's he's totally correct. Now,
911
00:51:55,362 --> 00:51:57,823
I think it happens because of people
912
00:51:57,823 --> 00:52:00,242
having such a wrong understanding
of the Trinity
913
00:52:00,242 --> 00:52:03,245
that that they
914
00:52:03,912 --> 00:52:06,748
I you pick up the typical hymnal
915
00:52:06,748 --> 00:52:10,627
and there will be a whole lot more hymns
to Jesus than to the Father.
916
00:52:11,211 --> 00:52:13,463
I don't think that offends the Father.
917
00:52:13,463 --> 00:52:16,466
He's happy
that his Son is getting all of this honor.
918
00:52:16,466 --> 00:52:19,803
So I don't think he's
necessarily bothered by it.
919
00:52:20,345 --> 00:52:22,806
I don't know that it's appropriate.
920
00:52:22,806 --> 00:52:26,434
You know, that that like I say,
we tend to almost
921
00:52:28,436 --> 00:52:31,022
make Jesus more important
922
00:52:31,022 --> 00:52:34,359
than than the Father,
you know, just through ignorance.
923
00:52:34,484 --> 00:52:39,281
Again, I don't think the Fathers
bothered by that.
924
00:52:39,281 --> 00:52:42,242
I think he
he delights that his Son is being honored.
925
00:52:42,450 --> 00:52:45,453
But I think, yeah, we should
926
00:52:45,453 --> 00:52:47,289
we should be more aware that we're giving
927
00:52:47,289 --> 00:52:50,500
proper honor to the Father
and also that we understand the
928
00:52:51,626 --> 00:52:52,627
the three persons.
929
00:52:52,627 --> 00:52:55,672
I mean, maybe you guys have heard,
as I'm sure I'm
930
00:52:55,672 --> 00:52:59,426
not the only one,
maybe I tend to just immediately spot it.
931
00:52:59,426 --> 00:53:02,429
But I mean, I've heard prayers
in my own congregation.
932
00:53:02,429 --> 00:53:05,640
Someone will start off Father,
you know, we thank you.
933
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:06,224
Bye bye bye.
934
00:53:06,224 --> 00:53:08,852
And thank you for coming to Earth
and dying for us.
935
00:53:08,852 --> 00:53:11,771
And it's like, wait a minute,
you're addressing the Father.
936
00:53:11,771 --> 00:53:15,984
You know, he didn't come to Earth and die
for us, you know, And there's so much
937
00:53:16,359 --> 00:53:19,362
confusion
938
00:53:19,779 --> 00:53:22,490
that Western Christians have on the Father
and the Son.
939
00:53:22,490 --> 00:53:24,701
I mean, they get like you say,
you start listening to them.
940
00:53:24,701 --> 00:53:26,536
And after a while it's obvious.
941
00:53:26,536 --> 00:53:29,539
It's totally confused in their mind.
942
00:53:29,581 --> 00:53:31,333
Who.
943
00:53:31,333 --> 00:53:36,546
Is who and what is what and
and all of that, that we should have that
944
00:53:36,546 --> 00:53:41,134
clear distinction of who the Father is
and that he's the head of it all.
945
00:53:41,134 --> 00:53:42,677
He's the source of it all.
946
00:53:42,677 --> 00:53:46,181
And yeah, who Jesus is our savior and
947
00:53:46,181 --> 00:53:50,685
and our God
as well as the Father being our God. And
948
00:53:51,645 --> 00:53:54,397
I'm sorry I messed up your filming
by sitting down.
949
00:53:54,397 --> 00:53:57,150
It's okay.
950
00:53:57,150 --> 00:53:59,444
So, yeah, I think it's important.
951
00:53:59,444 --> 00:54:00,487
I do.
952
00:54:00,487 --> 00:54:03,406
Like I say, it bothers me.
953
00:54:03,406 --> 00:54:05,033
I don't think it bothers the Father that.
954
00:54:05,033 --> 00:54:09,371
Yeah, like so like I say,
you look in the back and their topics,
955
00:54:09,663 --> 00:54:12,999
the hymns that deal with Jesus Christ,
the things that deal with the Father,
956
00:54:13,083 --> 00:54:16,836
it's like, wow, you know,
we've made him greater than the Father.
957
00:54:16,836 --> 00:54:19,839
And Jesus said,
My Father is greater than that than I.
958
00:54:19,965 --> 00:54:20,507
And I get it.
959
00:54:20,507 --> 00:54:23,635
Jesus, you know,
is the one who suffered on the cross and
960
00:54:23,635 --> 00:54:26,888
and I understand,
you know, the appreciation.
961
00:54:26,888 --> 00:54:31,810
But yeah, we do tend to,
I think, get things skewed a little bit.
962
00:54:32,477 --> 00:54:33,687
Good question. Yes.
963
00:54:33,687 --> 00:54:35,105
Start with you. Okay.
964
00:54:35,105 --> 00:54:37,190
Explain a little bit behind
965
00:54:38,441 --> 00:54:41,444
why we're going to bring you those names.
966
00:54:41,695 --> 00:54:42,612
Yeah, because.
967
00:54:42,612 --> 00:54:45,573
Yeah, because
968
00:54:46,616 --> 00:54:48,660
Paul said there's one God,
969
00:54:48,660 --> 00:54:51,663
the Father and one mediator
between God and man, Jesus
970
00:54:51,663 --> 00:54:54,666
Christ. So,
971
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:56,918
you know, Jesus told in
972
00:54:56,918 --> 00:54:59,921
John, he told his apostles,
you know, I'm not going to
973
00:55:00,922 --> 00:55:05,260
I'm paraphrasing this, that,
you know, whatever you ask me, I will do.
974
00:55:05,260 --> 00:55:08,179
He said, you know, just ask the Father.
975
00:55:08,179 --> 00:55:12,183
And whatever you ask in my name,
you know, he will grant.
976
00:55:12,350 --> 00:55:18,106
So the instruction is like
when he gave us the Lord's Prayer,
977
00:55:18,398 --> 00:55:21,818
you know, he said, Pray this way,
our Father, who art in heaven,
978
00:55:22,444 --> 00:55:25,905
it's not wrong
theologically to pray to Jesus,
979
00:55:26,573 --> 00:55:30,160
but he taught us to pray
to the Father in his name.
980
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:34,122
So that's why we say, you know,
if we pray correctly,
981
00:55:34,122 --> 00:55:38,585
we pray to the Father, and then we close
in Jesus name because we know that
982
00:55:38,918 --> 00:55:41,963
there's a mediator between us
and the Father, and that's Jesus.
983
00:55:42,422 --> 00:55:48,553
Like I say, it's not wrong
theologically, Jesus is divine.
984
00:55:48,553 --> 00:55:50,680
He is God to pray to him.
985
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:52,557
It's not like praying to Mary
or to an angel
986
00:55:52,557 --> 00:55:56,353
or saint or something like that,
but it's not the way he taught us to pray.
987
00:55:56,644 --> 00:55:59,981
But yeah, I've mused on this a lot.
988
00:55:59,981 --> 00:56:02,942
So Catholics, they want to pray to Mary
989
00:56:03,026 --> 00:56:05,737
and Protestants want to pray to Jesus,
990
00:56:05,737 --> 00:56:09,115
you know, And Jesus taught us to pray
to the Father, you know. But
991
00:56:10,617 --> 00:56:13,620
Baptist usually do pray to the Father.
992
00:56:13,703 --> 00:56:18,041
But when you're around evangelicals,
I noticed I always notice this
993
00:56:18,166 --> 00:56:22,212
almost invariably
they'll start a yells, pray, Jesus,
994
00:56:22,212 --> 00:56:25,632
you know, And it's like we just eliminated
the Father.
995
00:56:25,632 --> 00:56:26,716
You know, Again, not
996
00:56:26,716 --> 00:56:30,678
that it's not theologically wrong,
like it would be to pray to an angel,
997
00:56:30,929 --> 00:56:33,723
but it's not the order
that that Jesus taught us.
998
00:56:33,723 --> 00:56:37,811
So that's why, yeah, we should say in
Jesus name that we recognize
999
00:56:38,019 --> 00:56:41,231
why we can even approach
the Father is because of Jesus.
Speaker:
00:56:41,231 --> 00:56:45,193
Without Jesus dying for us
and and all of that,
Speaker:
00:56:45,193 --> 00:56:49,781
then that's what opened the way for us
really, to be able to approach the Father.
Speaker:
00:56:49,948 --> 00:56:52,242
So, yeah, excellent question.
Speaker:
00:56:52,242 --> 00:56:53,660
And you had one.
Speaker:
00:56:53,660 --> 00:56:58,415
I was going to ask on the Dolphins
question that like
Speaker:
00:56:59,165 --> 00:57:02,919
so here's this begotten of the Father and
Speaker:
00:57:04,879 --> 00:57:07,924
and now
Speaker:
00:57:08,425 --> 00:57:12,053
if you like,
if the Father is the head of crimes, then
Speaker:
00:57:12,762 --> 00:57:15,765
if we are worshiping Christ,
when that boy
Speaker:
00:57:15,849 --> 00:57:18,768
also be around with all that because
Speaker:
00:57:18,768 --> 00:57:20,728
of the Father.
Speaker:
00:57:20,728 --> 00:57:21,271
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:57:21,271 --> 00:57:24,274
I think that's a correct statement.
Speaker:
00:57:24,274 --> 00:57:27,277
I think
Speaker:
00:57:28,862 --> 00:57:31,448
it's important that we recognize the
the order.
Speaker:
00:57:31,448 --> 00:57:35,452
But yeah,
Speaker:
00:57:35,452 --> 00:57:38,663
we're not in honoring and worshiping
Jesus.
Speaker:
00:57:38,705 --> 00:57:40,248
We don't,
Speaker:
00:57:40,248 --> 00:57:43,626
you know,
unless we have a wrong understanding of it
Speaker:
00:57:43,626 --> 00:57:46,504
all, we're not taking away from the Father
like you say.
Speaker:
00:57:46,504 --> 00:57:49,507
It delights the Father, you know.
Speaker:
00:57:49,507 --> 00:57:52,635
You know, if somebody honors my Son,
Speaker:
00:57:52,969 --> 00:57:55,180
I don't feel like,
that's taking away from me.
Speaker:
00:57:55,180 --> 00:57:59,809
I mean, it
it makes me feel good if people you know,
Speaker:
00:57:59,809 --> 00:58:02,312
if my Son gives a message and people say,
wow, that was
Speaker:
00:58:02,312 --> 00:58:04,355
that was a really good sermon
and all that,
Speaker:
00:58:04,355 --> 00:58:07,775
I don't sit there and think, well,
what about my sermon I preach last week,
Speaker:
00:58:07,775 --> 00:58:10,403
you know, And, you know,
I don't feel that way.
Speaker:
00:58:10,403 --> 00:58:12,947
It's like, yeah, yeah, I'm glad you know.
Speaker:
00:58:12,947 --> 00:58:14,699
Yeah, it makes me feel really proud,
you know?
Speaker:
00:58:14,699 --> 00:58:17,494
And I think that's how the Father is,
you know, that he just
Speaker:
00:58:17,494 --> 00:58:21,581
he feels really proud that,
you know, his Son did this for us
Speaker:
00:58:21,581 --> 00:58:24,709
and that that we praise
Speaker:
00:58:24,709 --> 00:58:28,213
and worship and serve Jesus because of it.
Speaker:
00:58:28,213 --> 00:58:32,884
So I think his how he looks at it and
of course, how Jesus looks at it to. But
Speaker:
00:58:34,594 --> 00:58:36,179
yeah, but again.
Speaker:
00:58:36,179 --> 00:58:38,223
The Father wants us to honor Jesus.
Speaker:
00:58:38,223 --> 00:58:40,600
Yeah. It's not like, it's okay to do it.
Speaker:
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,852
No, he wants us to do it.
Speaker:
00:58:42,852 --> 00:58:45,855
And he's displeased if we don't.
Speaker:
00:58:46,814 --> 00:58:48,233
Okay.
Speaker:
00:58:48,233 --> 00:58:49,567
Others? Yes.
Speaker:
00:58:49,567 --> 00:58:51,402
So I got to know him.
Speaker:
00:58:51,402 --> 00:58:54,030
A witness for him just a little bit. Okay.
Speaker:
00:58:54,030 --> 00:58:57,033
We were back and forth.
A big massive storm.
Speaker:
00:58:57,033 --> 00:59:00,370
And one thing I just went back
and investigated was looking over.
Speaker:
00:59:00,370 --> 00:59:03,373
One thing that he said was
Speaker:
00:59:03,540 --> 00:59:06,834
he told me to look at the history
of the Trinity theory.
Speaker:
00:59:07,293 --> 00:59:10,922
And then he said, you will see that
Christians in the first century
Speaker:
00:59:10,922 --> 00:59:14,801
didn't teach that,
but it was accepted some 200 years later
Speaker:
00:59:15,218 --> 00:59:18,221
by a non-Christian ruler,
which was constant.
Speaker:
00:59:18,221 --> 00:59:22,267
And so how what would be a good response
to that?
Speaker:
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,603
People that people that look at it
like a non-Christian?
Speaker:
00:59:25,603 --> 00:59:26,062
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:59:26,062 --> 00:59:28,147
Because of the Protestant being involved.
Speaker:
00:59:28,147 --> 00:59:29,023
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:59:29,023 --> 00:59:32,569
So Constantine,
the Nicene Creed, we started off with that
Speaker:
00:59:33,319 --> 00:59:34,696
most of you said you hadn't heard of.
Speaker:
00:59:34,696 --> 00:59:36,698
Okay, so that was it.
Speaker:
00:59:36,698 --> 00:59:38,741
The Council of Nicaea
Speaker:
00:59:38,741 --> 00:59:44,497
and Constantine is the one
who convened that council and and
Speaker:
00:59:44,497 --> 00:59:48,334
was the head of it, you know,
and that's why
Speaker:
00:59:48,334 --> 00:59:51,879
Jehovah's Witnesses think, that's
when the Trinity came into existence.
Speaker:
00:59:52,213 --> 00:59:55,675
But what we saw in the Nicene
Creed was what Christians
Speaker:
00:59:55,675 --> 01:00:00,471
had been teaching for 200 years
before that It wasn't something new.
Speaker:
01:00:00,471 --> 01:00:03,933
It was how
they had always understood the Trinity.
Speaker:
01:00:03,933 --> 01:00:06,227
But yeah,
so that's what I grew up believing,
Speaker:
01:00:06,227 --> 01:00:09,230
that Trinity came into existence
with Constantine.
Speaker:
01:00:09,355 --> 01:00:13,067
I don't.
Speaker:
01:00:16,362 --> 01:00:18,364
Well, these writings are on line.
Speaker:
01:00:18,364 --> 01:00:20,992
The anti Nicene Fathers.
Speaker:
01:00:20,992 --> 01:00:24,245
I was going to say,
if you had the dictionary virdi
Speaker:
01:00:24,245 --> 01:00:28,708
Christian beliefs, I mean,
you probably don't have a copy of it.
Speaker:
01:00:28,708 --> 01:00:32,295
But yeah, if you do, I mean,
if you look up,
Speaker:
01:00:33,504 --> 01:00:35,923
I think it's under Jesus divinity
or something.
Speaker:
01:00:35,923 --> 01:00:41,346
I mean, I mean there's pages and pages
of quotations of, of what they believed
Speaker:
01:00:41,346 --> 01:00:45,642
on the Trinity and the term Trinity
was actually coined by Tertullian
Speaker:
01:00:46,017 --> 01:00:50,021
about the year 200,
but he didn't come up with the doctrine.
Speaker:
01:00:50,021 --> 01:00:52,065
He just coined the term to describe it.
Speaker:
01:00:52,065 --> 01:00:55,068
But no, it is something that you see.
Speaker:
01:00:55,318 --> 01:00:57,820
Wow. Just
Speaker:
01:00:57,820 --> 01:01:00,073
a few years after the New Testament.
Speaker:
01:01:00,073 --> 01:01:02,742
I mean, I'm talking about
like five or ten years.
Speaker:
01:01:02,742 --> 01:01:05,244
They talk about the divinity of Christ.
Speaker:
01:01:05,244 --> 01:01:07,872
So it is not.
Speaker:
01:01:07,872 --> 01:01:11,209
Yeah, Jehovah's
Witnesses have been misinformed on that.
Speaker:
01:01:11,209 --> 01:01:14,712
So, yeah,
Speaker:
01:01:14,754 --> 01:01:18,883
there was a way to take him in to
some of those passages.
Speaker:
01:01:18,966 --> 01:01:20,218
Yeah, it would be amazing.
Speaker:
01:01:20,218 --> 01:01:22,220
I mean, it's like
Speaker:
01:01:22,220 --> 01:01:26,349
they clearly believed in it and yeah,
they've just been misinformed on that.
Speaker:
01:01:26,349 --> 01:01:27,308
Unfortunately.
Speaker:
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:33,314
Yes. Debate about the term bigots
and that kind of,
Speaker:
01:01:33,564 --> 01:01:36,567
at least in my mind, has generally implied
Speaker:
01:01:37,318 --> 01:01:41,656
or implied a beginning
or implied by my Father in some way.
Speaker:
01:01:42,156 --> 01:01:45,660
And I'm like,
is that the best word to translate,
Speaker:
01:01:45,660 --> 01:01:48,663
to describe the Father
rabble connotations are very
Speaker:
01:01:49,539 --> 01:01:50,665
like beginning.
Speaker:
01:01:50,665 --> 01:01:51,999
And but then I thought more about that.
Speaker:
01:01:51,999 --> 01:01:55,169
And so the scripture uses the Father Son
Speaker:
01:01:55,169 --> 01:01:58,172
analogy,
which also implies a birth or a beginning
Speaker:
01:01:58,923 --> 01:02:01,551
like this.
Speaker:
01:02:01,551 --> 01:02:02,802
Is that the best English word?
Speaker:
01:02:02,802 --> 01:02:05,763
Yeah.
Speaker:
01:02:07,682 --> 01:02:10,268
I think it's consistent
because that same word,
Speaker:
01:02:10,268 --> 01:02:13,271
you know, but we get.
Speaker:
01:02:14,439 --> 01:02:14,647
That.
Speaker:
01:02:14,647 --> 01:02:18,484
Doesn't necessarily mean birth,
although it can.
Speaker:
01:02:18,860 --> 01:02:21,487
But when you go through the chronologies,
you know
Speaker:
01:02:21,487 --> 01:02:25,241
say Adam begat so and so and he begat so
and so and he began so and so.
Speaker:
01:02:25,825 --> 01:02:30,538
So it's meaning he Fathered them
rather than that he gave birth obviously.
Speaker:
01:02:30,955 --> 01:02:35,084
So yeah beget doesn't necessarily mean to
Speaker:
01:02:35,293 --> 01:02:40,840
to give birth but it can have that sense
I'm pretty sure if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker:
01:02:41,090 --> 01:02:45,803
But yeah it
it also means can Father someone.
Speaker:
01:02:45,803 --> 01:02:50,099
So it is correct in that sense,
you know like Adam begot so and so.
Speaker:
01:02:50,099 --> 01:02:54,395
Like I say, the problem is
when we put it into human terms
Speaker:
01:02:54,395 --> 01:02:57,273
and this is why wrestle
so hard as a Jehovah's Witness is like,
Speaker:
01:02:57,273 --> 01:02:59,442
well, if we began him,
then he came into existence.
Speaker:
01:02:59,442 --> 01:03:02,153
It means he didn't used to exist,
you know.
Speaker:
01:03:02,153 --> 01:03:05,239
And so that's when they explain, hey,
you can be get something.
Speaker:
01:03:06,073 --> 01:03:09,786
And yet it can,
it can be co eternal with you in the sun
Speaker:
01:03:09,786 --> 01:03:13,372
and the spring of water that it begets it,
Speaker:
01:03:13,623 --> 01:03:16,417
you know, it's the one who generates
Speaker:
01:03:16,417 --> 01:03:19,378
another term would be generate maybe, but
Speaker:
01:03:19,378 --> 01:03:23,257
we don't usually use that term with regard
to people you know and so you know,
Speaker:
01:03:23,508 --> 01:03:26,469
I mean we do in the sense of generations
and that sort of thing.
Speaker:
01:03:26,469 --> 01:03:30,389
But you know Genesis but but
Speaker:
01:03:30,389 --> 01:03:33,392
yeah, I think beget
is probably the best we can do in English.
Speaker:
01:03:33,392 --> 01:03:38,272
Even the Greek words would have multiple
meanings, you know, so, so
Speaker:
01:03:38,856 --> 01:03:39,398
but they were
Speaker:
01:03:39,398 --> 01:03:42,568
I mean the early Christians, I mean people
asking the same question is why
Speaker:
01:03:42,610 --> 01:03:45,112
so much is written on it
by the early Christians.
Speaker:
01:03:45,112 --> 01:03:48,115
I mean,
other than the topic of salvation,
Speaker:
01:03:48,282 --> 01:03:51,953
it's more written on the Trinity
than any other topic,
Speaker:
01:03:52,036 --> 01:03:53,830
which would be something
I'll say Jehovah's Witness.
Speaker:
01:03:53,830 --> 01:03:55,081
I mean, it is everywhere.
Speaker:
01:03:55,081 --> 01:03:57,041
It's not just like a couple of people.
Speaker:
01:03:57,041 --> 01:03:57,375
It is
Speaker:
01:03:57,375 --> 01:04:01,295
virtually every writer talks about it
because it's a hard thing to understand.
Speaker:
01:04:01,295 --> 01:04:03,673
How can he begotten and be eternal?
Speaker:
01:04:03,673 --> 01:04:07,635
And so I'm assuming these illustrations
came from the apostles
Speaker:
01:04:07,635 --> 01:04:09,178
because they all use them,
Speaker:
01:04:09,178 --> 01:04:11,222
the early Christians, you know,
and they're still being used
Speaker:
01:04:11,222 --> 01:04:13,432
by the Eastern churches today,
you know that.
Speaker:
01:04:13,432 --> 01:04:16,686
So I'm guessing the apostles
maybe explain that.
Speaker:
01:04:16,686 --> 01:04:17,478
But yeah, it's a
Speaker:
01:04:18,437 --> 01:04:20,773
when we're thinking as people,
it seems impossible
Speaker:
01:04:20,773 --> 01:04:22,567
if you're begotten
and you had to have a beginning.
Speaker:
01:04:22,567 --> 01:04:25,778
And so and I always thought,
well that's yeah,
Speaker:
01:04:26,445 --> 01:04:27,697
how can you possibly get around that?
Speaker:
01:04:27,697 --> 01:04:30,074
And then when I read these
illustrations of the early
Speaker:
01:04:30,074 --> 01:04:33,077
Christians is like,
I never thought of that.
Speaker:
01:04:33,077 --> 01:04:36,080
Yeah. You know. So did you remember?
Speaker:
01:04:36,247 --> 01:04:40,418
The Father is not material,
you know, he's immaterial, he's spirit.
Speaker:
01:04:40,418 --> 01:04:42,628
And so we're we're talking
about different dimensions.
Speaker:
01:04:42,628 --> 01:04:46,924
You know, he uses things even like Father
and Son to help us understand,
Speaker:
01:04:47,008 --> 01:04:49,176
you know, in our world.
Speaker:
01:04:49,176 --> 01:04:52,179
But it's different from from his world.
Speaker:
01:04:54,682 --> 01:04:55,641
Another question.
Speaker:
01:04:55,641 --> 01:04:56,309
Okay.
Speaker:
01:04:56,309 --> 01:04:59,437
So we've been hearing more lately.
Speaker:
01:04:59,687 --> 01:05:00,730
It sounds really good.
Speaker:
01:05:00,730 --> 01:05:03,983
It says that that glory
Speaker:
01:05:03,983 --> 01:05:06,986
always go to the Son or the Father,
Speaker:
01:05:07,361 --> 01:05:10,031
and we should not work with spirit.
Speaker:
01:05:10,031 --> 01:05:12,992
If the spirit of being war by that's
not a God.
Speaker:
01:05:13,117 --> 01:05:14,410
And that sounds really good,
Speaker:
01:05:14,410 --> 01:05:16,203
but I'm not sure it's
theologically correct,
Speaker:
01:05:16,203 --> 01:05:18,581
because the spirit
and the last thing that the Father
Speaker:
01:05:18,581 --> 01:05:21,292
and the Son or how does that work?
There's more to this.
Speaker:
01:05:21,292 --> 01:05:24,462
And I think glory goes in the spirit.
Speaker:
01:05:24,462 --> 01:05:27,381
I know it's interesting,
the early Christians,
Speaker:
01:05:29,300 --> 01:05:31,052
like even the Creed, it just says in
Speaker:
01:05:31,052 --> 01:05:34,055
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
and that's all it says.
Speaker:
01:05:34,055 --> 01:05:37,975
You know, they didn't try to expound.
Speaker:
01:05:37,975 --> 01:05:40,144
I mean, just whatever
the scriptures say about him,
Speaker:
01:05:40,144 --> 01:05:42,521
they quoted that
and they didn't go beyond that.
Speaker:
01:05:42,521 --> 01:05:47,944
But certainly one sense of the honor
Speaker:
01:05:48,235 --> 01:05:51,906
that, you know, is due the Holy Spirit.
Speaker:
01:05:51,906 --> 01:05:55,117
When Jesus said,
you know, any word spoken
Speaker:
01:05:55,117 --> 01:05:58,245
against the Son of man
or the Father would be forgiven.
Speaker:
01:05:58,245 --> 01:06:02,083
But, you know,
a word against the Holy Spirit,
Speaker:
01:06:02,291 --> 01:06:05,503
who speaks against the Spirit
will not be forgiven in this world
Speaker:
01:06:05,503 --> 01:06:06,337
or the world to come.
Speaker:
01:06:06,337 --> 01:06:09,966
You know, So obviously the Holy Spirit is
Speaker:
01:06:10,299 --> 01:06:13,219
God wants us to honor and glorify him,
Speaker:
01:06:13,219 --> 01:06:17,390
but the Scriptures don't discuss it
as much in the early Christians.
Speaker:
01:06:17,390 --> 01:06:18,891
Therefore don't discuss it as much.
Speaker:
01:06:18,891 --> 01:06:23,437
Now, after I see it, when you get into
the three hundreds in the fourth century,
Speaker:
01:06:23,771 --> 01:06:28,567
then at the Council of Constantinople,
then they said the Holy Spirit is equal
Speaker:
01:06:28,567 --> 01:06:29,652
to Father and Son,
Speaker:
01:06:29,652 --> 01:06:32,780
and we should glorify worshiping him
as we do the Father and the Son.
Speaker:
01:06:33,197 --> 01:06:38,077
But yeah, this is after the Constantine,
after a lot of corruption had come in.
Speaker:
01:06:38,077 --> 01:06:38,619
I don't know.
Speaker:
01:06:38,619 --> 01:06:41,622
That is necessarily
theologically incorrect what they said,
Speaker:
01:06:41,747 --> 01:06:43,374
but that's not Yeah,
Speaker:
01:06:43,374 --> 01:06:47,086
that's not what the early Christians
would have said directly. You
Speaker:
01:06:48,587 --> 01:06:48,838
again.
Speaker:
01:06:48,838 --> 01:06:50,047
This brother had a question.
Speaker:
01:06:50,047 --> 01:06:53,718
Yeah, as long as
that was not in front of me where he is.
Speaker:
01:06:53,884 --> 01:06:54,677
Frankly, this is.
Speaker:
01:06:54,677 --> 01:06:56,220
I don't want to or
Speaker:
01:06:56,220 --> 01:06:59,223
I don't want the Father when I'm of going
in order to know where he's going.
Speaker:
01:06:59,765 --> 01:07:01,392
Yes. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:07:01,392 --> 01:07:04,395
Because as I heard, actually, word
was that even
Speaker:
01:07:04,437 --> 01:07:07,440
now you think is going to help, it's
not a good return.
Speaker:
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:08,315
Well.
Speaker:
01:07:08,315 --> 01:07:09,191
Yeah. Later on.
Speaker:
01:07:09,191 --> 01:07:13,195
So nowadays,
you know, after the Council of Nicaea
Speaker:
01:07:13,195 --> 01:07:17,074
then is actually Athanasius
who came up with the explanation, said
Speaker:
01:07:17,074 --> 01:07:20,786
well that was only because
Jesus was on earth then that he said that.
Speaker:
01:07:20,786 --> 01:07:25,833
But I don't know how
He's still in the incarnation.
Speaker:
01:07:25,833 --> 01:07:28,836
I don't know how he could not know
something he knew before
Speaker:
01:07:29,128 --> 01:07:32,089
because he could read people's hearts
when he was on Earth.
Speaker:
01:07:32,089 --> 01:07:32,882
So I don't know. That's true.
Speaker:
01:07:32,882 --> 01:07:36,010
The early Christians, yeah,
they took at face value.
Speaker:
01:07:36,010 --> 01:07:38,888
Jesus said,
you know, only the Father knows.
Speaker:
01:07:38,888 --> 01:07:40,681
And I just that's what Jesus said.
Speaker:
01:07:40,681 --> 01:07:43,559
We believe what he says
and that's it, you know.
Speaker:
01:07:43,559 --> 01:07:44,852
Yeah.
Speaker:
01:07:44,852 --> 01:07:47,938
Like you say after Nicaea
then they like you say they,
Speaker:
01:07:47,938 --> 01:07:52,193
they tended to not want this distinction
between the Father and the Son.
Speaker:
01:07:52,193 --> 01:07:54,904
And so all these passages
they explained away, you know.
Speaker:
01:07:54,904 --> 01:07:57,907
Well, I didn't really mean
that said the Father is greater me.
Speaker:
01:07:57,990 --> 01:08:01,660
What he meant was I'm here on the earth,
as you know, as a human now.
Speaker:
01:08:01,952 --> 01:08:04,538
And so, yeah, he's greater than me,
but not when we get back to heaven,
Speaker:
01:08:04,538 --> 01:08:06,123
you know, when,
not when I get back to him.
Speaker:
01:08:06,123 --> 01:08:09,418
And but of course, after
he's back in heaven, Paul says,
Speaker:
01:08:09,418 --> 01:08:12,880
you know that, you know,
God is the head of Christ.
Speaker:
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:14,173
So that's not not true.
Speaker:
01:08:14,173 --> 01:08:18,803
But yeah, people
so overreacted against the Arian Heresy,
Speaker:
01:08:18,803 --> 01:08:22,556
which was that Jesus was created,
that he was created out of nothing
Speaker:
01:08:22,556 --> 01:08:24,266
and came into existence in time.
Speaker:
01:08:24,266 --> 01:08:28,062
They were so afraid of that heresy
that then they overreacted.
Speaker:
01:08:28,062 --> 01:08:28,896
It's like, well,
Speaker:
01:08:28,896 --> 01:08:30,981
if we talk about the headship
of the Father,
Speaker:
01:08:30,981 --> 01:08:33,192
then that plays
into the hands of the Arians.
Speaker:
01:08:33,192 --> 01:08:34,610
And so let's just deny that there's
Speaker:
01:08:34,610 --> 01:08:38,572
any headship, deny there's anything there,
which is just a dumb way.
Speaker:
01:08:38,572 --> 01:08:42,827
So now you've corrupted the historic faith
just as much as what they were doing,
Speaker:
01:08:42,910 --> 01:08:43,410
you know, in
Speaker:
01:08:43,410 --> 01:08:47,498
trying to defend him mean we should always
just stick to what the faith is.
Speaker:
01:08:47,498 --> 01:08:51,877
And if someone is corrupting it,
we don't overreact to try to offset them.
Speaker:
01:08:51,877 --> 01:08:55,422
We just stick with what's there
and that doesn't silence them.
Speaker:
01:08:55,422 --> 01:08:56,048
So be it.
Speaker:
01:08:56,048 --> 01:08:58,050
You know,
they it'll go away after a while.
Speaker:
01:08:58,050 --> 01:08:59,385
You know. You
Speaker:
01:09:03,139 --> 01:09:03,639
look.
Speaker:
01:09:03,639 --> 01:09:05,850
At this brother in the back.
Speaker:
01:09:05,850 --> 01:09:07,768
In third
Speaker:
01:09:07,768 --> 01:09:11,272
grade, all in one one great one all agree
Speaker:
01:09:11,647 --> 01:09:14,650
at the creation of the.
Speaker:
01:09:17,987 --> 01:09:20,698
Well yeah
that's what I hope I've been explaining
Speaker:
01:09:20,698 --> 01:09:24,618
maybe didn't do a good job
that all three are eternal.
Speaker:
01:09:25,327 --> 01:09:27,788
So from the beginning.
Speaker:
01:09:27,788 --> 01:09:30,791
Yes. That all three have been
Speaker:
01:09:31,834 --> 01:09:33,252
from the very beginning.
Speaker:
01:09:33,252 --> 01:09:33,544
Yeah.
Speaker:
01:09:33,544 --> 01:09:36,797
It's always existed as the Trinity for
Speaker:
01:09:36,881 --> 01:09:39,842
from forever.
Speaker:
01:09:40,134 --> 01:09:42,011
Okay, well, first
Speaker:
01:09:42,011 --> 01:09:45,848
I had to say why
I'm okay in the Old Testament
Speaker:
01:09:46,265 --> 01:09:49,852
is a reference like in houses,
like the beginning of that creation.
Speaker:
01:09:50,436 --> 01:09:54,982
Is it referencing the yellow news
that refers to the tragedy
Speaker:
01:09:54,982 --> 01:09:57,943
of the world that.
Speaker:
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:02,948
I know that argument is used.
Speaker:
01:10:02,948 --> 01:10:07,077
I mean, that's what
everyone, you know says I, I don't know.
Speaker:
01:10:07,077 --> 01:10:10,873
The early Christians don't
normally use it argument,
Speaker:
01:10:10,873 --> 01:10:14,835
but very few of them
spoke Hebrew either either. But
Speaker:
01:10:16,295 --> 01:10:17,213
I don't know because, see,
Speaker:
01:10:17,213 --> 01:10:21,217
the Jews didn't believe in the Trinity
and they, you know, they use Elohim.
Speaker:
01:10:21,217 --> 01:10:24,678
So they didn't think that,
this is plural.
Speaker:
01:10:24,678 --> 01:10:27,890
Meaning there's a multiplicity of beings.
Speaker:
01:10:27,973 --> 01:10:32,853
I mean they understood
that was the plural of majesty.
Speaker:
01:10:33,354 --> 01:10:35,231
I don't know.
Speaker:
01:10:35,231 --> 01:10:38,192
You probably don't do a lot of reading in
Speaker:
01:10:39,068 --> 01:10:42,071
the 1600, 1500, some of King James.
Speaker:
01:10:42,071 --> 01:10:45,074
It's it's really funny when you read
Speaker:
01:10:45,115 --> 01:10:50,120
any of the rulers
when they're talking kings or queens,
Speaker:
01:10:50,454 --> 01:10:53,207
they always say we talk about themselves.
Speaker:
01:10:53,207 --> 01:10:54,917
You know,
Speaker:
01:10:54,917 --> 01:10:57,753
we are displeased about this or that,
and they don't mean anyone
Speaker:
01:10:57,753 --> 01:10:58,796
but themselves know.
Speaker:
01:10:58,796 --> 01:11:02,383
But it was they spoke of themselves
always in the plural.
Speaker:
01:11:02,716 --> 01:11:05,552
It's funny reading it
because it's so awkward for us,
Speaker:
01:11:05,552 --> 01:11:09,515
but that was just normal to everybody,
you know, back then.
Speaker:
01:11:09,807 --> 01:11:11,058
So I don't think
Speaker:
01:11:11,058 --> 01:11:14,812
that Elohim is a reference to the Trinity,
but I know that argument is use,
Speaker:
01:11:14,812 --> 01:11:18,649
and I don't know
that it is necessarily incorrect,
Speaker:
01:11:18,649 --> 01:11:22,903
but since the Jews don't, you know,
like you say, that's their language
Speaker:
01:11:22,903 --> 01:11:26,073
and they don't they don't see a
trinity because it's plural.
Speaker:
01:11:27,908 --> 01:11:31,578
And of course, when when God said,
let us make man in our image.
Speaker:
01:11:31,620 --> 01:11:35,582
Yeah, they understood He's talking to
Jesus is why are you saying our you know,
Speaker:
01:11:35,582 --> 01:11:38,585
that he's talking to the two of them. But
Speaker:
01:11:40,546 --> 01:11:42,923
yeah,
they didn't see in that of the Trinity.
Speaker:
01:11:42,923 --> 01:11:47,261
But I say today that's, that's what,
what people use but often like you say is
Speaker:
01:11:47,803 --> 01:11:50,347
they have a very confused understanding.
Speaker:
01:11:50,347 --> 01:11:51,432
I mean you could
Speaker:
01:11:51,432 --> 01:11:53,934
you could make that argument with
a correct understanding of the Trinity,
Speaker:
01:11:53,934 --> 01:11:58,230
but usually the ones making it
have a very confused understanding of it.
Speaker:
01:11:58,230 --> 01:12:00,774
You know, that
Speaker:
01:12:00,774 --> 01:12:04,028
they don't see the distinction
between the Father and Jesus there.
Speaker:
01:12:04,028 --> 01:12:04,862
But yeah, yeah.
Speaker:
01:12:04,862 --> 01:12:07,865
Thank you for bringing that out.
Speaker:
01:12:09,950 --> 01:12:15,164
So, yeah, girl,
Holy Spirit lives like that.
Speaker:
01:12:16,248 --> 01:12:16,665
there you are.
Speaker:
01:12:16,665 --> 01:12:19,668
Okay, I could tell he was talking.
Speaker:
01:12:19,835 --> 01:12:21,253
Like I did.
Speaker:
01:12:21,253 --> 01:12:23,339
He sent the Holy Spirit to us.
Speaker:
01:12:23,339 --> 01:12:27,718
Like, what did you think of that as?
Speaker:
01:12:27,718 --> 01:12:31,930
Like, his spirit
or what did you think of that as a person?
Speaker:
01:12:32,097 --> 01:12:34,016
Like, I
Speaker:
01:12:34,016 --> 01:12:39,438
like what I think of,
you know, the person.
Speaker:
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:44,860
But how does that relate with us
having the Holy Spirit in all of us?
Speaker:
01:12:45,652 --> 01:12:47,946
Okay, Yeah, it is the Holy Spirit.
Speaker:
01:12:47,946 --> 01:12:52,326
It's one of the harder ones to grasp
because definitely,
Speaker:
01:12:52,534 --> 01:12:54,495
you know, Christians have believed
from the beginning
Speaker:
01:12:54,495 --> 01:12:58,332
the Holy Spirit is a person,
but we don't get
Speaker:
01:12:58,540 --> 01:13:01,627
we don't get a personality with him,
you know, the way we do with
Speaker:
01:13:01,627 --> 01:13:04,630
with the Father and the Son,
you know, where we can kind of
Speaker:
01:13:04,922 --> 01:13:08,467
picture as as a person
the way we're used to thinking of it
Speaker:
01:13:09,968 --> 01:13:12,971
again,
because we're dealing with a spirit being
Speaker:
01:13:13,055 --> 01:13:16,058
then he can dwell within us
Speaker:
01:13:16,058 --> 01:13:19,061
and of course, all of these
Speaker:
01:13:19,269 --> 01:13:23,023
are written
so humans can understand because,
Speaker:
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:25,943
you know, the Father is everywhere.
Speaker:
01:13:25,943 --> 01:13:30,948
I mean, you know, the Bible talk about him
being in heaven, but he's here,
Speaker:
01:13:31,448 --> 01:13:35,285
you know, he's inside of us, too,
because he's he's everywhere.
Speaker:
01:13:35,285 --> 01:13:39,790
There's there's no part of the universe
where God isn't, you know?
Speaker:
01:13:40,249 --> 01:13:45,671
So the Holy Spirit dwelling in us,
I mean, he is everywhere.
Speaker:
01:13:45,671 --> 01:13:51,176
There's no way to bar the Holy Spirit,
but it's a way, I think, of trying
Speaker:
01:13:51,176 --> 01:13:56,890
helping us to understand that
that He is centered in us, you know, or
Speaker:
01:13:57,349 --> 01:14:02,020
that we're letting ourselves
be controlled by him.
Speaker:
01:14:02,020 --> 01:14:05,107
We're surrendering our life
and the Holy Spirit is guiding us.
Speaker:
01:14:05,691 --> 01:14:08,402
But I think. Yeah.
Speaker:
01:14:08,402 --> 01:14:12,030
Physically or whatever, in
a different dimension, he's always there
Speaker:
01:14:12,030 --> 01:14:17,786
because he's not physical, he's
not material know, But yeah, it is.
Speaker:
01:14:17,786 --> 01:14:18,996
It can get very confusing.
Speaker:
01:14:18,996 --> 01:14:22,374
You're reading it and it's easier just
to think of the Spirit as kind of a force,
Speaker:
01:14:22,583 --> 01:14:25,586
which is what Jehovah's Witnesses think,
because it
Speaker:
01:14:26,128 --> 01:14:29,590
yeah, you get that impression sometimes,
but then other times, you know,
Speaker:
01:14:29,965 --> 01:14:33,886
it's pretty clear he's
being referred to as a person.
Speaker:
01:14:33,886 --> 01:14:34,845
When Jesus said, you know,
Speaker:
01:14:34,845 --> 01:14:39,808
going to send you the comforter
or the advocate, you know, that that,
Speaker:
01:14:40,058 --> 01:14:43,270
you know, he's talking about a person
he said, who will take my place.
Speaker:
01:14:43,270 --> 01:14:46,565
I mean, it's it's very
it would seem like the analogy
Speaker:
01:14:46,565 --> 01:14:49,776
that this is a person, not just a force.
Speaker:
01:14:50,819 --> 01:14:52,196
Didn't that help you?
Speaker:
01:14:52,196 --> 01:14:54,823
I mean, it's very hard to answer that
because.
Speaker:
01:14:54,823 --> 01:14:58,702
We're just dealing in a dimension
that is beyond humans, you know, And
Speaker:
01:14:59,244 --> 01:15:03,999
all of these are just AIDS for humans
to try to understand things that are,
Speaker:
01:15:04,416 --> 01:15:07,294
you know,
just way beyond the world that we know
Speaker:
01:15:07,294 --> 01:15:10,297
and live in.
Speaker:
01:15:13,675 --> 01:15:15,552
And, yes.
Speaker:
01:15:15,552 --> 01:15:18,388
The spectrum of really problems
with the way you live
Speaker:
01:15:18,388 --> 01:15:22,017
now, clearly
the Son versus the apple of the egg
Speaker:
01:15:23,936 --> 01:15:25,687
in their first thought
Speaker:
01:15:25,687 --> 01:15:28,690
going to be, well,
that sounds very basic.
Speaker:
01:15:28,857 --> 01:15:31,860
I guess it sounds like multiple gods.
Speaker:
01:15:32,027 --> 01:15:34,321
I'm curious what Muslim defines with you
Speaker:
01:15:34,321 --> 01:15:37,324
is that somehow in the verses
Speaker:
01:15:37,366 --> 01:15:40,369
you're making differs
distinctly three different
Speaker:
01:15:41,411 --> 01:15:45,040
versions, or is that I agree with that?
Speaker:
01:15:45,457 --> 01:15:48,460
I don't know because I haven't
I haven't yet.
Speaker:
01:15:48,460 --> 01:15:52,589
Since I've understood this, I don't think
I've been in conversations with Muslims,
Speaker:
01:15:52,589 --> 01:15:56,510
but we got on the Trinity,
so I honestly don't know.
Speaker:
01:15:56,927 --> 01:15:59,763
I've explained it to
Speaker:
01:15:59,763 --> 01:16:02,724
people who've left Jehovah's Witnesses
Speaker:
01:16:02,724 --> 01:16:05,644
and they've grasped that, you know,
it is definitely help them.
Speaker:
01:16:05,644 --> 01:16:06,562
I know that much.
Speaker:
01:16:06,562 --> 01:16:09,064
But yeah, I cannot say a muslim.
Speaker:
01:16:09,064 --> 01:16:11,358
So you're you're the guinea pigs?
I don't know.
Speaker:
01:16:11,358 --> 01:16:12,359
Yeah. Tell me next,
Speaker:
01:16:14,361 --> 01:16:14,987
if we run
Speaker:
01:16:14,987 --> 01:16:17,990
into each other,
if you've had a chance to try that. And.
Speaker:
01:16:18,115 --> 01:16:20,117
If it, if it works.
Speaker:
01:16:20,117 --> 01:16:24,830
But yeah, you can maybe try it on your
GW acquaintance, you know,
Speaker:
01:16:24,830 --> 01:16:27,541
and just say Yeah,
let me explain the Trinity to you
Speaker:
01:16:27,541 --> 01:16:30,544
because I know it's hard to understand it
in any way,
Speaker:
01:16:31,587 --> 01:16:33,755
but yet.
Speaker:
01:16:33,755 --> 01:16:37,092
To me you still have it,
but we have to get that down,
Speaker:
01:16:37,092 --> 01:16:40,512
that there are three persons,
you know, and,
Speaker:
01:16:41,179 --> 01:16:44,891
and yet there's just one God,
because they don't, they don't constitute.
Speaker:
01:16:45,517 --> 01:16:48,604
And yet each one can be called God
or the Holy.
Speaker:
01:16:48,770 --> 01:16:51,189
The Scriptures
never call the Holy Spirit God.
Speaker:
01:16:51,189 --> 01:16:54,067
But I guess theologically
it would seem correct.
Speaker:
01:16:54,067 --> 01:16:55,235
It's just the Holy Spirit.
Speaker:
01:16:55,235 --> 01:16:58,572
I mean, the Scriptures never use that
expression, but it does with Jesus.
Speaker:
01:17:00,282 --> 01:17:02,242
But He's God
Speaker:
01:17:02,242 --> 01:17:05,746
by nature, but
He doesn't take the place of the Father.
Speaker:
01:17:06,330 --> 01:17:09,333
There's still just one head, one supreme.
Speaker:
01:17:09,541 --> 01:17:11,501
And that's why the Apostles Creed
Speaker:
01:17:11,501 --> 01:17:14,713
starts off, We believe in one God,
the Father, you know that.
Speaker:
01:17:15,047 --> 01:17:17,591
And his Son.
I mean, that's how it expresses it.
Speaker:
01:17:17,591 --> 01:17:18,508
We believe in one God.
Speaker:
01:17:18,508 --> 01:17:21,553
The Father God is one
because the Father is one.
Speaker:
01:17:21,595 --> 01:17:28,060
And and the Holy Spirit and the Son
are associated with the Father.
Speaker:
01:17:28,060 --> 01:17:31,647
You know,
they don't operate in dependently of him.
Speaker:
01:17:31,647 --> 01:17:33,774
They don't exist independently of him.
Speaker:
01:17:33,774 --> 01:17:36,401
But the Father is what makes it one God,
Speaker:
01:17:36,401 --> 01:17:39,363
because there is only one source
for the Trinity.
Speaker:
01:17:40,447 --> 01:17:42,282
Contains the same essence.
Speaker:
01:17:42,282 --> 01:17:44,284
The same essence. Your differences.
Speaker:
01:17:44,284 --> 01:17:47,829
Maybe you have something or something
like that, which is multiple gods.
Speaker:
01:17:47,829 --> 01:17:48,997
Yeah. And they're all independent.
Speaker:
01:17:48,997 --> 01:17:51,166
They fight each other
and they do things like that.
Speaker:
01:17:51,166 --> 01:17:56,004
There's this one essence you one one
divine being, one head of the universe.
Speaker:
01:17:56,046 --> 01:17:59,174
The the early Christians often talk
Speaker:
01:17:59,174 --> 01:18:02,928
about the monarchy of God.
Speaker:
01:18:02,928 --> 01:18:07,265
You know, there is only one head,
you know, in polytheistic
Speaker:
01:18:07,683 --> 01:18:08,809
there wasn't one head.
Speaker:
01:18:08,809 --> 01:18:12,145
There were, you know, there
might have been a supreme ruler like Zeus.
Speaker:
01:18:12,145 --> 01:18:15,774
But yeah, if you read the Greek myths,
man, they're all doing their own thing.
Speaker:
01:18:15,774 --> 01:18:20,320
It's not one one mind that is is is there.
Speaker:
01:18:20,445 --> 01:18:24,157
Yeah, but there's no doubt
it is the most confusing of all
Speaker:
01:18:24,157 --> 01:18:27,661
Christian doctrines and it's why Jehovah's
Witnesses make a lot of converts.
Speaker:
01:18:27,661 --> 01:18:28,453
I mean, because people say,
Speaker:
01:18:28,453 --> 01:18:30,789
I can understand the Trinity and Jehovah's
Witnesses say,
Speaker:
01:18:30,789 --> 01:18:32,499
Well, yeah, that's a false teaching,
you know.
Speaker:
01:18:32,499 --> 01:18:35,502
And yeah, I mean, it's, it's, you know,
Speaker:
01:18:35,669 --> 01:18:38,672
but because something is hard
to understand doesn't mean it's wrong.
Speaker:
01:18:38,672 --> 01:18:39,172
Just like
Speaker:
01:18:40,173 --> 01:18:42,342
it's just knocking on this.
Speaker:
01:18:42,342 --> 01:18:44,720
Okay. You would say
that's a solid piece of wood.
Speaker:
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:46,805
I mean, that's the most,
Speaker:
01:18:46,805 --> 01:18:50,851
you know, simplest understanding that's,
that's all there is.
Speaker:
01:18:50,851 --> 01:18:52,352
It's just it's just one thing.
Speaker:
01:18:52,352 --> 01:18:55,856
But if I tell you, you know,
actually that's made up of a bunch of,
Speaker:
01:18:56,273 --> 01:19:01,278
you know, atoms, and that atom has,
you know,
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01:19:01,319 --> 01:19:04,656
a nucleus and mirrors and electrons
going around it and all that.
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01:19:04,656 --> 01:19:06,908
And you say, Well,
what kind of nonsense is that?
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01:19:06,908 --> 01:19:08,618
I mean, it's just one thing.
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01:19:08,618 --> 01:19:11,621
I mean,
something can be a lot more complicated.
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01:19:11,955 --> 01:19:14,958
And, you know, if you're trying to explain
that to somebody
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01:19:15,250 --> 01:19:16,668
in the jungle who's never
Speaker:
01:19:16,668 --> 01:19:20,672
you know, had any education, yeah,
that would just sound like total nonsense.
Speaker:
01:19:20,672 --> 01:19:23,675
But it's it's what is the truth? You know?
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01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:24,760
And same with the Trinity.
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01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:26,553
It's harder to understand.
Speaker:
01:19:26,553 --> 01:19:28,221
But because something is hard
to understand
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01:19:28,221 --> 01:19:30,640
doesn't have anything to do
with whether it's true or not.
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01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:36,062
You know, something can be very complex
and can also go against our own sense of
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01:19:36,271 --> 01:19:39,274
I mean, I can't
I believe that in there there's, you know,
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01:19:39,274 --> 01:19:42,277
these neutrons and protons, electrons
and all these other things.
Speaker:
01:19:42,819 --> 01:19:44,488
In my mind, I believe that.
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01:19:44,488 --> 01:19:49,743
But when I look at that, I don't I can't
think of of this podium in that sense.
Speaker:
01:19:49,743 --> 01:19:52,287
It's just it's like a
solid, solid thing, you know?
Speaker:
01:19:55,707 --> 01:19:56,666
Yes. I
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01:19:56,666 --> 01:20:01,713
think more about, I don't know, Muslim
theology deeply that that well but
Speaker:
01:20:03,006 --> 01:20:07,052
I guess like there would be two
different ways to look at some analogy.
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01:20:07,677 --> 01:20:11,556
One would be like, God is this
that he's not really expressing himself.
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01:20:11,890 --> 01:20:14,768
So it's kind of like that
Speaker:
01:20:14,768 --> 01:20:15,101
actually.
Speaker:
01:20:15,101 --> 01:20:19,022
Does that sound like that without the rays
of light and all that extra stuff?
Speaker:
01:20:19,022 --> 01:20:22,984
But and in some ways,
some people sometimes think
Speaker:
01:20:22,984 --> 01:20:27,948
that that's almost like more glorious
or it's almost like he's reserving it
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01:20:27,948 --> 01:20:31,076
because he's like,
so great and connects us and somehow, like
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01:20:31,076 --> 01:20:34,246
if he would have never get less boring
because it's just like,
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01:20:34,913 --> 01:20:37,833
as bad as like
you can just like, show himself
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01:20:37,833 --> 01:20:41,002
to us almost like
some of that, like, was thinking and
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01:20:42,712 --> 01:20:43,046
again,
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01:20:43,046 --> 01:20:46,049
I don't know, wasn't Gougeon
well enough to know what position or take
Speaker:
01:20:46,091 --> 01:20:50,720
or another position would be that
that there's just one person of God,
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01:20:51,221 --> 01:20:54,140
just one or one of Allah,
and he's all of that.
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01:20:54,140 --> 01:20:58,061
He's like, this person is he is the light
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01:20:58,562 --> 01:21:02,691
is that he is just one big person
and I'm not
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01:21:03,817 --> 01:21:04,317
I don't know.
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01:21:04,317 --> 01:21:06,987
I mean, this is off the air. Right?
Speaker:
01:21:06,987 --> 01:21:07,904
Yeah. I don't I don't know.
Speaker:
01:21:07,904 --> 01:21:12,784
I mean, this, like you say,
is an explanation of the historic face on
Speaker:
01:21:12,784 --> 01:21:18,415
the Trinity that may or may not be helpful
in talking to two Muslims.
Speaker:
01:21:18,874 --> 01:21:23,920
I would think it would be, but
I've never actually tried it on on one.
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01:21:24,379 --> 01:21:26,172
I just tried the other.
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01:21:26,172 --> 01:21:29,175
And I know how that went, you know,
because it.
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01:21:29,467 --> 01:21:32,345
Yeah, it just it's like it made like
Speaker:
01:21:32,345 --> 01:21:36,016
no one could give an explanation
or why is it not three gods?
Speaker:
01:21:36,016 --> 01:21:39,269
I mean, it was very, very hard to explain.
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01:21:39,269 --> 01:21:43,273
This explains there's not three gods
because there is only one essence
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01:21:43,273 --> 01:21:44,608
that their life comes from.
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01:21:44,608 --> 01:21:47,611
Now, the problem is why
Speaker:
01:21:47,611 --> 01:21:50,739
it's different in Islam is that.
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01:21:54,117 --> 01:21:55,869
The. Son came to Earth.
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01:21:55,869 --> 01:21:57,245
He became one of us.
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01:21:57,245 --> 01:21:59,539
You know that never that's
Speaker:
01:21:59,539 --> 01:22:01,207
Muslim theology doesn't have that.
Speaker:
01:22:01,207 --> 01:22:04,669
You know, Islam doesn't have that,
you know, Allah is always distant.
Speaker:
01:22:05,253 --> 01:22:06,922
Yeah. I mean, he cares about us.
Speaker:
01:22:06,922 --> 01:22:11,384
He oversees us, but he doesn't have a Son
that.
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01:22:11,384 --> 01:22:14,346
Yeah, came to earth a divine Son.
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01:22:14,346 --> 01:22:16,389
So the Father.
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01:22:16,389 --> 01:22:16,640
Yeah.
Speaker:
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:19,601
The early Christians felt like
in what we read in First Corinthians,
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01:22:19,601 --> 01:22:22,979
who alone has immortality,
who no man has seen or ever can see.
Speaker:
01:22:22,979 --> 01:22:25,982
You know that? Yeah. The Father.
Speaker:
01:22:25,982 --> 01:22:29,861
The early Christians felt like, no,
he could not have come and died here.
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01:22:29,861 --> 01:22:31,363
That would not have been appropriate.
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01:22:31,363 --> 01:22:33,865
You know, for the Father to die.
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01:22:33,865 --> 01:22:36,576
So it doesn't
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01:22:36,576 --> 01:22:41,957
diminish his his glory or honor,
but it makes him so much accessible
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01:22:41,957 --> 01:22:45,126
that, you know, we have we have Christ
and we have the Holy Spirit.
Speaker:
01:22:45,126 --> 01:22:50,173
You know, I don't I mean, all it doesn't
dwell in people that I know of.
Speaker:
01:22:50,173 --> 01:22:53,176
I mean, again, I'm not an expert on Islam
Speaker:
01:22:53,259 --> 01:22:56,680
where, yeah, we have the Holy Spirit
dwelling in us, you know, and
Speaker:
01:22:58,515 --> 01:22:59,265
so it's
Speaker:
01:22:59,265 --> 01:23:03,937
I don't know, it's it's a God
is so much more he's just as glorious.
Speaker:
01:23:04,229 --> 01:23:06,398
But he's also here with us.
Speaker:
01:23:06,398 --> 01:23:10,110
I mean, you know, he's
he has through his Son,
Speaker:
01:23:10,110 --> 01:23:15,615
you we've had divinity right here
on the earth becoming one of us.
Speaker:
01:23:15,865 --> 01:23:19,452
You know, the same essence of the Father
became becoming human.
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01:23:19,452 --> 01:23:20,537
I mean, that is just.
Speaker:
01:23:20,537 --> 01:23:21,496
Yeah.
Speaker:
01:23:21,496 --> 01:23:24,124
Makes him so much more personal than.
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01:23:24,124 --> 01:23:25,458
Than the Muslim god.
Speaker:
01:23:25,458 --> 01:23:26,251
Yeah.
Speaker:
01:23:26,251 --> 01:23:29,212
Yeah.
Speaker:
01:23:29,254 --> 01:23:30,130
Okay.
Speaker:
01:23:30,130 --> 01:23:32,924
And you guys want to keep
listen to this question.
Speaker:
01:23:32,924 --> 01:23:33,466
I don't mind.
Speaker:
01:23:33,466 --> 01:23:36,469
I'm not.
Speaker:
01:23:36,970 --> 01:23:37,345
Something.
Speaker:
01:23:37,345 --> 01:23:40,140
You're right.
Well, let's make it the last one, okay?
Speaker:
01:23:40,140 --> 01:23:41,766
And we'll
Speaker:
01:23:41,766 --> 01:23:44,769
talk about that in advance again.
Speaker:
01:23:44,978 --> 01:23:45,478
Okay.
Speaker:
01:23:45,478 --> 01:23:49,107
Those three privacy from the Father
or mother or Father.
Speaker:
01:23:50,191 --> 01:23:51,735
From the Father only.
Speaker:
01:23:51,735 --> 01:23:53,361
Okay, so that's another Western.
Speaker:
01:23:53,361 --> 01:23:58,074
And that came from August in that
he came from the Father and the Son
Speaker:
01:23:58,616 --> 01:24:02,120
because words begin in splitting hairs.
Speaker:
01:24:02,287 --> 01:24:04,789
That's the Orthodox is huge.
Speaker:
01:24:04,789 --> 01:24:06,332
I don't know that.
Speaker:
01:24:06,332 --> 01:24:09,669
I don't think the Father, you know,
gets worked up about that kind of thing,
Speaker:
01:24:09,669 --> 01:24:13,256
but Jesus sends the Holy Spirit.
Speaker:
01:24:13,715 --> 01:24:15,800
But he doesn't.
Speaker:
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:16,301
Know.
Speaker:
01:24:16,301 --> 01:24:18,303
Why. It's why it's big to them.
Speaker:
01:24:18,303 --> 01:24:21,848
Is it just to them? It's an illustration.
Speaker:
01:24:21,848 --> 01:24:24,934
It's probably true that the West doesn't
understand the Trinity because,
Speaker:
01:24:25,643 --> 01:24:27,771
you know, you're saying
then the Holy Spirit
Speaker:
01:24:27,771 --> 01:24:31,775
has his existence in Jesus,
that that He comes from Jesus.
Speaker:
01:24:31,900 --> 01:24:35,612
So I know there's only the Father,
the is the center, the
Speaker:
01:24:35,862 --> 01:24:37,113
the source of the trinity.
Speaker:
01:24:37,113 --> 01:24:38,323
You don't have two sources.
Speaker:
01:24:38,323 --> 01:24:40,283
You don't have the Father and the Son.
Speaker:
01:24:40,283 --> 01:24:41,618
You just have the Father.
Speaker:
01:24:41,618 --> 01:24:44,704
And so the Holy Spirit proceeds
from the Father.
Speaker:
01:24:44,913 --> 01:24:49,000
But the sense the Son sends him,
you know, is the correct way.
Speaker:
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:52,587
But, you know, for the average person,
I doubt it makes the
Speaker:
01:24:53,338 --> 01:24:58,510
difference in what they mean
or that I don't think God gets offended by
Speaker:
01:24:59,135 --> 01:25:02,138
our inability to understand these things
because these are all just
Speaker:
01:25:02,305 --> 01:25:03,723
ways for us to try to
Speaker:
01:25:05,225 --> 01:25:05,934
present it.
Speaker:
01:25:05,934 --> 01:25:09,354
It's not like we really understand
these eternal things.
Speaker:
01:25:09,354 --> 01:25:12,357
It's just,
you know, ways that we can envision it.
Speaker:
01:25:12,941 --> 01:25:13,274
Okay.
Speaker:
01:25:13,274 --> 01:25:16,277
Reagan,
you ready for me to turn it over to you?
Speaker:
01:25:22,283 --> 01:25:24,619
Because
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01:25:24,619 --> 01:25:25,620
so many.