0:00:05.2 VB: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vicki Brett.

0:00:09.0 AS: I'm Amanda Solohi. We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

0:00:19.1 VB: Each week, we're gonna explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others...

0:00:25.6 AS: And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

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0:00:33.0 VB: Welcome, listeners.

0:00:34.8 AS: Hi, everyone.

0:00:36.2 VB: We hope everybody is getting settled into this new semester. And with that, it's kind of insane to think it might be the halfway point in the semester. [laughter]

0:00:50.0 AS: Yeah.

0:00:50.2 VB: We have Dr. Emily with us discuss inclusivity and equity within the classroom environment. We've had this conversation between Amanda and myself several times and with guests, but with a fresh perspective. Dr. Emily, we welcome you. Thank you so much for coming onto our podcast.

0:01:07.2 EA: Thanks for having me.

0:01:08.9 VB: So, can you give our listeners a brief background about yourself?

0:01:13.2 EA: Yes. Yeah. My name is Emily Affolter, and I currently work at Prescott College as the Director of our Sustainability Education PhD. And that is, we look at the nexus of social and environmental justice as enacted in teaching, learning, and leading. And so we have a really transdisciplinary cadre of scholar activists here, many of whom are in the educational K12 or K16 sectors. And my background is, I did my PhD with Dr. Geneva Gay, who you all may have heard of. She coined "culturally responsive teaching," and she's someone that I have great sense and love for. [laughter] And we've been working on just the evolution and the deepening of culturally responsive teaching and our own praxis. So, I've been a Head Start teacher. I've been a first through eighth grade Spanish teacher. I've done a lot of research on teaching and learning, and how do we infuse social justice principles in the work that we're doing, and not just in theory, but in practice. So, I love that you all are doing this inclusive education dialogue, ongoing dialogue, so we can really deepen our thinking and our practice around how we operationalize that.

0:02:33.0 AS: And it's definitely a very prevalent conversation right now. As you know, there's been big topics of conversations, not just on book-banning of certain topics, but also of banning curriculums that we in the education world would view as moving the needle forward and promoting inclusivity and social justice, and teaching our future citizens, right? These children, not only about these topics, but trying to ingrain in them these social justice principles. And unfortunately, we are really facing a battle right now in our public schools on how can we move forward. And so I think that might be a good segue for us to talk about, what do you see? Do you see that being something that is a barrier for the people you work with and train? And how kind of think about the pushback that we're getting. How do we push the needle forward more even though we have this pushback?

0:03:34.0 EA: I feel it in my body when you bring it up, the great resistance to work that I deem absolutely essential, that I deem for everybody and to the benefit of everybody. And so of course, the threats are real. And yet if we really get down to what it looks like to be culturally responsive and equitable in our teaching and learning, it isn't political. Because it behooves everyone in our classrooms to increase access and opportunity for those who have been minoritized. But also, if some of us have been hyper-privileged by our educational systems, an increased awareness of the why behind that and the historical landscape, just feels like such a leveling necessity. Of course, I'm gravely upset that it has become so politicized and I guess has historically been, but more and more, these days and these weeks.

0:04:40.8 AS: Yeah. [chuckle]

0:04:43.7 EA: When I really look at the work and go macro on the work, I just can't see a world in which this work needs to be politicized because it does benefit everyone, period. You know?

0:04:57.4 AS: Yeah. And unfortunately, we are in a position where we talk to people about, okay, how do we fix problems with... Let's just say teachers whom their perspective of inclusive education is that, "Well, some kids just can't and so they shouldn't be," right? That's a very old-school way of thinking about disability and diversity, and how kids learn just in general. And I think that we talk about teachers that have been in the field for 20 years. There's only so much we can do to retrain them or try to get them on board. And there's things that we're working on to try to move that needle forward. But going back to the basics of, where are these teachers coming from? Right? Obviously we want to ingrain these beliefs into children when they're young. But along with that is getting teachers really early on before they're even teachers. How can we embed this understanding and shared perspectives on how we look at learners in general? And so I think it's important, the work you're doing, because we need that training to start from the bottom before they even get in the classroom.

0:06:07.2 EA: I totally agree with you. And I think about it like plaque. First of all, yes, we need to go in and get those big, if you're like me, dental overhauls, preventative care... Teacher training. But we also need to get very frequent, if you're me, dental checkups in order to take care of our dental hygiene because plaque builds up.

0:06:31.1 AS: Yeah.

0:06:31.9 EA: And so I think that it's a both/and, right? We want to train folks as soon as possible and as early as possible, but also with a continuous thread so that we continue to keep unlearning some of those dominant narratives together, for a more equitable future and just disposition around equity.

0:06:51.8 VB: Yeah, with the preparation, the types of programs that are run, it really does stem from self-reflection. So, I can imagine how you have to go about that, right? Because as you had said at the top, being able to recognize if you've had a privileged educational background, right? You only know what you don't know what you don't know, right? And so if you've never experienced being in a low-funded school, for instance, your experience and just perspective on education is going to be a lot different than maybe some of even the students that you may initially teach right off the bat. So, how do you go about that? How do you confront that in a way that is beneficial for these individuals that will go out and begin their teaching careers?

0:07:46.7 EA: I think one of the biggest things when I really, the deeper I get into the field, the more crystallized just a few truths to me have become. And one of them is, we've all been acculturated to really think about our educational system and outcomes as a binary: Right or wrong, good and bad, A and F, like these.

0:08:09.2 AS: Yeah, yeah.

0:08:10.8 EA: And I think that to be able to question that really carefully and think about, what are the ways in which we could open up how we teach and learn for pluralism? And I mean "pluralism" like totally heterogeneous students learning outcomes, ways in which we could... Methods that we could teach our students, ways in which we could seek students producing work assessment. How do we break, crack the nut of, "There was one way of doing things?" But in fact there are endless. And that would honor a pluralistic individual, which we all are, but also any pluralistic group of students. And I think that the more that we can pluralize our methods, I know that sounds really jargony, but really... [laughter] Really break it down, the more it would benefit... The more it would be equitable and benefit any number of students. And it also creates a disposition for our students that there's, "I belong in the classroom, and I bring assets to the classroom," opposed to, "I need to contort myself into this singular way of being," which is easier for some than others, "in order to be successful here."

0:09:31.8 VB: And I don't think that a lot of the experiences in wanting to become a teacher even touch on that, [laughter] right? And so I think there's definitely an old way of just, "You just do this, and this is how you do it, and you're just learning." And Amanda and I even say it about, going to law school, "Can we take a class on accounting? Can we learn how to actually run a business?" Right? And it sounds like you're trying to provide realistic tools for situations that they will consistently confront, right? What are some examples that you can give our listeners as to the approach that you are taking?

0:10:14.5 EA: Yeah. I guess there's a few ways I think about it. First of all, I think I said it before, but just high-level asset pedagogy. How can we get really curious about the strengths of our students? And if there's a problem, if we see a problem, like someone's having a hard time with an assignment, we bring the onus to the system, which could be us, our curricula, maybe the school structure, school culture, opposed to the student first. So, we get really curious about how our structure might shift in order to support the strengths of the student and meet their needs. What are we doing that's too narrow or not supportive enough that the student is having a hard time meeting this goal? I need to own that.

0:11:01.9 EA: Another thing I think is really important is humility for educators. I keep thinking about, what are the dispositions that we hope our students will leave with? And I think we all want our students to know that they belong and have this disposition of, "I have agency. I have the capacity to do things in the world. My efforts are meaningful." So, the opposite of what we would call "systemic apathy." We want our students to be emboldened to make change and know they can. And I really believe that teacher humility plays a big role in that.

0:11:41.9 AS: Yeah.

0:11:42.8 VB: Yeah.

0:11:43.0 EA: And so how do we allow the students agency to really take up space and invite them to be as agentic or as powerful as possible so that they can really sit with that, that already lives within them with that, so that they can flex it? I believe systemic apathy is a huge issue for reinforcing inequities in our system.

0:12:07.9 AS: Yeah, I agree. I think any teacher listening or any parent listening would absolutely benefit from your course and what the work you're doing. But obviously everyone all across the country doesn't always have access to that. Is there a resource, like a book or a podcast or a website or information, that you could share as a resource for teachers or parents just wanting to learn more about how to educate themselves more?

0:12:34.5 EA: Yes, yes. Thank you, by the way. That was generous. [laughter] One group that I really recommend, because they make these... Well, first of all, because I'm friends with them and I've worked with them, but also they make these really great handouts that are open-access and one- to two-page PDFs that are really helpful.

0:12:55.0 VB: Oh, wow.

0:12:55.8 EA: Equity Literacy Institute. It's called ELI, and it's run by Dr. Paul Gorski and a bunch of brilliant co-collaborators. But I can share that with you later. And I highly recommend people who want short PDF resources that help deepen understandings of what are pathways to equity in our schools; and what are clear and consistent hurdles, and how do we become brave and moving through them or moving past them. That's where I go.

0:13:26.3 VB: Oh, I love how you said that too, "and how we can be brave in moving forward with it." Because I'm sure for some it does feel scary, right? And it really is just the sense of community and how you were speaking about these critical thinking skills of the teacher. And really including this, that's what Amanda and I advocate for a lot of times, is including the student, that this is their life. We can all be in a room and make decisions, but the agency that you were talking about for the teacher can also be extended, as you said, to the student. So, I think that that is just, the work that you're doing, is very much needed. And the way to inject it, is to really start from yourself and be able to reflect. And that's why Amanda and I have the podcast really, is to start conversations like these, and continue in something that a parent or administrator may not have ever known about, right? And really take it and sit with it, and see, "Okay, and so then how is a way that I can implement this?" If people wanted to reach out to you specifically, is there a way for them to do that or a website that they can follow up on?

0:14:44.5 EA: Yeah, I would encourage them to reach out to me on LinkedIn.

0:14:47.2 VB: Okay.

0:14:48.0 EA: And I'll share that link with you all. And I would love to have further conversations with folks about questions that they have or really tactical conversations about how to handle specific challenges, because ultimately the research, the theory is nothing if we are...

0:15:04.2 VB: Right, right. Exactly, exactly. And I think people learn through example. And the way Amanda and I learned were hypotheticals, right? [laughter] And that's always our favorite part of a presentation, are the questions. So, we try to get through our presentations and then we're like, "What are your questions?" so that it does give light to things and it's helpful to people. We so appreciate your time, and thank you so much. This is just a little snippet. If any of you have any questions or further comments, please reach out to us. If you have hypotheticals, and if there's enough, we can maybe have Dr. Emily back to help go through it. But yeah, we appreciate you and the work that you're doing. Thank you so much for your time.

0:15:49.1 EA: Thank you.

0:15:50.2 AS: [chuckle] And to our listeners, we'll talk to you next week. Bye-bye.

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