Welcome to the Complete Game Podcast where we're all about baseball with Ethan Dungan, owner of Glovehound Baseball glove repair shop.

Rick Finley, founder of MDNI Baseball Academy and the creator of George Foster Baseball, the MVP himself, Reds hall of Famer George Foster.

I'm your host, Greg Dungan.

Now let's talk baseball.

Welcome back.

Welcome, everybody.

Welcome to the Complete Game podcast.

This is episode 21 and today we're going to be talking about getting outs with pitching.

So we're going to profile some hitters and try and set up a handful of sort of archetypes is a big fancy word, but pro stereotypes, stereotypes, profiles, what these, what, what different types of hitters are likely to do.

And then we're going to talk about pitch strategy.

Everything from pitch selection to sequencing to specific strategies to use from the mound to try and get these outs your team.

So that's what we're into today.

The first thing we're going to do is start.

I will, I will go through the, for our name five segment.

I will go through each one of these and we're going to talk about a little bit about them.

And then we're going to name some current players who or, or past players, doesn't really matter.

We're going to name some players that are like these people that embody that profile these stereotypes so that you can kind of get an idea.

Oh, when they talk about this one that might be like this player or that player and kind of give you a frame of reference to, for when you're watching this on television or listen to on the radio or something like that.

Okay, so are we ready to go?

I'm ready.

I'm excited.

So our first one is the leadoff.

So this guy is looking to get on base.

This is his number one goal.

He gets up in the morning, eats his Wheaties and gets on base.

That's his job.

Very fast.

Usually fast guy that can, can, can get there in a hurry kind of guy who can beat out a drop, third strike, infield hits.

Infield hits.

Yeah.

Guys you got to be aware, be worried if, even if it's on the ground, you know, they're not usually power guys.

These guys are.

Are you wouldn't be in the bigs if you couldn't hit it over the fence.

But they're not likely to do that as often as guys in the middle of the lineup.

So not the main objective.

Yeah, that's not what they're out there to do.

They're, they'll do it, you know, as often as as is Burton.

But they won't.

That's not their goal when they get up there.

It doesn't do you any good to go over the fence if there's nobody on base, does it, George?

Well, that's it.

You find that some guys who can hit home runs leading off, it's just now becomes a solo.

But you want to have somebody on base so that pitcher can be in a stretch position.

And that's where when you start making a lineup, knowing that factor, some guys get happy about trying to hit the ball at a ballpark.

I know I'm.

I beat this guy's name to death, Fredo.

He likes to hit home runs.

But being able to get on base, he doesn't really realize how it sets up the offense.

Yeah.

And I think that's a really underrated point is that the guy on base is more than an rbi.

He's changing the approach of the pitcher to the batter.

And that was something that I had never even considered until you had brought that up when we first started.

He now can't throw out of his windup.

He has to throw out of his stretch.

Especially when the guy on base is a stealing threat.

So.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, you can't, you've changed the, you've put already put the, the pitcher in a defensive posture.

Yeah.

Now the, what they call is going to be different.

Right.

So he's on base now you're going to get, get guys who can hit fastballs, more fastballs.

So that's why I say it's very important in the lineup how the balance and then being able to, being able to have guys protecting one another and I use the statement many times is that speed sets up power.

What do you mean by that?

Well, you get a Morgan or Griffith on base and you know that you got as a hitter, you're going to get fastballs.

And I said somewhat this to a guy the other day, I said do not put a breaking ball hitter behind a base dealer.

Like why?

Well, you're going to get fastballs and he's a breaking ball hitter.

Yeah.

So that's.

You don't want that guy right behind a base stealer.

The other thing is that, you know, maybe not so much in the major leagues because of their, the pitcher's level of skill and being able to pitch equally well from the stretch or the, or the wind up.

But as you're talking about younger players, they may very well, they may have pitchers that, they may have pitches that don't work as well from the stretch as they do from the wind up.

You know, by getting them in the stretch, you, you may get a different pitch selection because now they had to.

Go to different things, especially at the youth level with varying degrees of catcher competence.

Yeah.

Yes.

You may find that some of, some of the velocity comes off of that fastball or that that curveball gets left out there and it hangs now because they got to throw it differently.

So those are the way that goes.

They.

The lead off header oftentimes will struggle with high velocity.

This was a, this was a so, so one.

This was kind of a.

At some point I had to turn this more into a person, you know, that's not a hard and fast one, just kind of a characteristic.

And I think that comes from not looking as maybe just a lower exit velocity.

They're not hitting the ball as hard.

But you could have a leadoff hitter that can handle velocity.

I was just trying to add one more thing that I do see sometimes.

Yeah.

Now the one thing about leadoff hitters though is you're going to get a lot of good discipline out of these guys.

You need, you need one that has y.

But also you need one that understanding that the situation.

Situation that you don't have to take the first pitch is a.

If you're going to take the first pitch, at least fake that you're going to bun do something.

Don't just say, okay, just throw it over the plate.

I'm not going to even, even try to contest this.

And I see guys just taking the first pitch because they, they think about, well, I'm going to get the pitch count up or I want to, but they're not getting information from that taking that first pitch.

And I think that's the key.

And you've mentioned this too before, Rick, that one of the lesser brought up roles of the lead off guys, just to reveal information is to.

Is to get the pitcher to show as many of his cards as possible so that the rest of the lineup behind him is prepared for that.

Exactly, exactly.

Let the, you know, make him throw a lot of pitches, foul off pitches, you know, got to control the strike zone.

That that's the key.

Kind of almost like a.

And you have to be a good 2 hit 2, 2 strike hitter also.

For sure.

Yeah.

Keep the at bat a lot.

Kind of reminds me of how a quarterback might put somebody in motion even if it's not going to then affect the play.

He's trying to get the defense to tell you the COVID It's kind of a same concept, right?

Yeah.

Show your Cards.

Yes.

So who are some guys that come to mind when you think about leadoff guys like this?

Ethan.

My, I got, I got two.

Number one, I put Kenny Lofton, a guy who, he's on that he's on the hall of Fame fence.

And a lot of some guys argue for it, some guys argue against it.

His, his case is why he doesn't maybe have the stats is that he was a leadoff guy with a different role.

And so I always appreciated that perspective.

And then my second guy is Juan Pierre.

Oh, that was pretty good.

That actually was a great one.

So I don't remember exactly what caused me to look at his stats but then I probably spent half hour 45 minutes just digging into it because from 2003 to 2007 he played all 162 for five years straight.

Yeah.

Okay.

But the shocking thing was that in his 14 year career he only had an OPS.

OPS plus over 100 twice.

And so OPS 100 is league average.

So it's on base plus slugging percentage and then 100 is league average.

So then the, the, the number that you're off of 100 is the percentage that you're better or worse than 100.

So for example, an OPS plus of 107 means you're 7 PER.

Your on base plus slugging is 7% better than the average.

And that at a glance is not good.

And I was trying to figure out why and it's because he just didn't slug.

But he, but he, his has a lifetime average of.295.

So another high hits guy or another high hits high average guy.

But he's not necessarily going to slug.

But in the leadoff position you don't have to slug.

You can but, but getting on on base is the name of the game.

So he also has a career on base percentage of.343 which is, which is pretty good.

But the slugging was down at.361 and usually you want that a little higher.

The other, a couple other things that stick out was that he had four seasons with double digit triples, which is interesting.

He was a big speed guy.

Yes, he was 600 with the Marlins, Marlins, Colorado and Rockies.

When he left the Marlins, I mean went to the Marlins that really helped the Marlins left Colorado for sure.

So he was, he didn't hit a ton of doubles, hit a decent amount.

Only 18 career home runs.

So very, very low home runs.

He wasn't pretty guy anymore.

No, he wasn't pretty low RBI is too high.

Stolen bases, that kind of thing.

The other interesting thing is that he has 167 sacrifice hits, so sacrifice bunts.

And that's, that's something else you like to have out of a leadoff guy.

So I don't know, I just thought he really embodied that role.

Well, that doesn't get reflected in the, in the numbers after his career kind of thing.

I love watching him play and like say he, he was excited when he got on the bases and because you never know what he's going to do out there.

But he's created, created excitement and helped create good, great offense for, for the Marlins and with, with the Rockies not as much because they didn't have a good team.

And you have a tendency to try to swing for home runs there.

I don't know how many.

Well, I guess most of those triples like you said with the Marlins, I'm thinking that.

And then the Colorado ball carry carried so well.

But he started to mature more so when he went to the Marlins and.

They won the World Series in Oh3.

When he first he was the key.

My man.

Jim Leland who, who comes to mind for you, George, when we start talking about the leadoff guys?

Well, the number one.

Well, I had to go.

Well it's either Lou Brock or Ricky Henderson and Ricky Henderson uses the obvious one.

But in Lou Brock's case, sometimes you want to go with a left hander that he's closer to first base.

Yeah, and, and we're talking about high velocity.

As far as slugging, you don't really want that guy.

Sometimes you just want to make contact, especially on the after turf or a harder surface being able to make contact and put the ball in play.

So Lou Brock really stands out.

Not only he at one time had the most stolen bases and had broken Mari Wilson's record.

So then Ricky Henderson broke Lou Brock.

But he was always a threat.

Just come up to the plate is a threat because right away the pitchers are saying and that's one thing leadoff guy does not understand that they're trying to get ahead, you know, throw the first pitch, strike.

But in Lou Brock's case, you're not necessarily looking to take the ball.

He's going to drive the ball because he had a high career batting average.

So Lou Brock really stood out.

Of course he's a Hall of Famer, but you watch these guys and the Cardinals was always, always had great speed in their, in their lineup.

They always drafted or traded for speed and a lot of clubs don't do that now.

But it's starting to change they starting to change again.

Yes, they are.

But you go to Billy Hamilton, that guy would have been a great player if somebody there to teach him how to do it.

Yes.

Put the ball in play.

He hit the ball at one period of time, hit the ball more in the air than Joey Voddle did.

Yeah.

So that's.

That's not the right way you want to go, but when Billy get on base, you know, he.

He created havoc on the basis.

Yeah.

What about you, Rick?

Who comes to mind for you?

Well, I did like the Ricky Henderson because I kind of patterned my son's game after him.

What's your son's name?

Ricky.

But I'm like Brett Butler.

Oh, I remember Brett.

Yeah.

When Brett went from the.

The Braves to the Dodgers, that's what.

He took off, man.

And I didn't even like Brett Butler.

But when he went to the Dodgers, man, it's like, man, he led the league in stolen bases a couple times.

I know he was up there all the time.

He was up there all the time, man.

So I like Brett Butler.

He's a lefty and didn't have a lot of power, man.

But n. He can bunt, especially from the left side.

He can drag a bunt, man.

He can do a push bunt, man.

He can do it all.

Run, get up.

He can tell you.

Really, he can tell you that.

He'll tell you.

He'll tell you that he going lay down a bun and still be it out.

So, yeah, Brett Butler, that's a name from the past.

Yeah.

But he's a great guy.

Great guy.

Even though you may not like it.

But I know, I say going from the good, going from the braze and with the Braves, he was, he was indecisive.

Indecisive.

What he wanted to do.

Yes, he wanted to get on base, but how do I get on base?

And then when you had that power lineup, it's like, I don't know, should I.

Should I butt or what?

Or going to the Dodgers, I think opened up his game.

The Dodgers, that's their mindset.

Yes.

The other thing I want to mention is you notice, not necessarily with Lou Brock, but you mentioned with.

With Brett Butler, Juan Pierre, Kenny Lofton, Rick Anderson, guys that play for a lot of different teams.

Yeah, I just, I just thought about that, and I think it's because it has to be, because those guys just provide value wherever they go.

Ricky Henderson, out of all of them, had the most power.

Yeah.

The way it was built.

And that's why I kind of patterned my Sons game after him because he was built like Ricky Henderson had gap power.

Ricky.

Ricky doubles triples and stuff.

But he actually was probably.

It's been a while now because I think the leadoff role has kind of changed a little bit because now there's power guys that are trying to.

George Springer.

Yeah.

You're playing, you're ahead right away.

You're playing the at bats game and get the best player the most at bats.

And I, I get why you might think that.

But Ash Warbur at lead off that one.

I know.

So yeah.

Well, that's a topic for another time.

Yes, yes.

For a kid in the Midwest.

That's Moneyball.

For a kid in the Midwest.

Growing up in the 80s, the late 70s and through the 80s, we all knew about Ricky Henderson.

But Ricky Henderson was in the American League for so much of the time.

Not the whole time, I mean for meant much of the time.

And so our guy that, that we thought of in that sort of Ricky Henderson role was Vince Coleman.

That's right.

That Cardinal again, that guy was like lightning.

He was.

And you know, he was always excited.

I mean I was always nervous when the Reds were playing the, the Cardinals.

Vince Coleman comes up, you just worry about me.

I was nervous.

I didn't want him.

I didn't want to hold him to a double.

Yeah.

Like I didn't want him on base.

I was like just.

No, no, no.

Because he was so fast and so good at stealing bases.

And so yeah, he was, he was kind of the, I don't know, the National League Midwestern, you know, guys we all knew about.

But another guy who jumped around at the end of his career and I think you see those guys jump around in the middle of the season to go to the playoff team that needs that extra a little bit of speed.

Yeah.

Willie McGee.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yep.

Well, and then I think as a Reds fan, I always think about Pete.

Same with.

He's not the typical that just happened to speak.

He didn't have no speed, but he's.

Leading the league in doubles.

So it's like he stole a second.

He did the job.

He's not the prototypical person we just mentioned, but yet like so many things about Pete is he just did the job.

Is this what you need?

Fine, I'll do the job.

Yes.

What you need?

Fine, I'll do the job.

The role like the guy played more than 500 games and what, like five different positions?

And I mean I'm just.

Whatever you need.

I'll just do the job.

So.

Yeah.

So I always think about Pete when.

We think about lead and talk about havoc on the base paths.

I mean, yeah, the guy who embodies that more than probably anybody.

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Okay, so our second, our second stereotype is the contact clubber.

Okay?

The contact club are low swing and miss rate.

So he's.

He's going to be touching that ball more often than not when he decides to swing.

Yeah, even foul balls, whatever, he's going to keep that thing alive.

Doesn't make the best quality contact, but it's hard to get anything by him.

So he's going to.

He's going to.

He's more likely to make more weak contact basically, rather than take a pitch that he doesn't think he can do as much damage on.

Ball and play is the name of the game for this guy.

Like get the ball in play, start some havoc, start something, start some action going on and see what you can make happen.

Rarely draws a walk and lacks the patient to last.

Lacks the patience to hunt the good pitches.

Yeah, and so that's kind of where that weak, that tendency to have a lot of weak contact comes from.

Because maybe George, maybe it's a lack of awareness of their hitting zone and rather maybe just trying to hit anything that they can rather than identifying their.

Strengths or lack of confidence of hitting with, with two strikes.

Okay.

Yeah, but that's, that's a good guy though.

If he's gonna, even if it's weak contact, sometimes it's good if he's gonna hit and run, he's just gonna ride hit and run.

So now the guys, of course he may end up getting an infight infield hit, but you don't want to really reach the infielders.

So.

But making weak contact is, is a plus.

So.

So my two guys for this category are Jacob Wilson and Luis Arias.

Because these are two guys who make a lot, a lot of contact.

It's not with a low average exit velocity, meaning that they're not hitting the ball hard as often.

And so you're going to have fewer strikeouts and also fewer walks.

So you're on base percentage though you hit the ball more may not be as good as your guy who's a little more patient, a little more strategic.

So I also think of this as more of a defensive swinger, kind of just scared to let anything get by him rather than, like you said, have the confidence to hunt something specific.

Yeah, these two guys, it's tough to think of because I don't look at a guy batting, say batting second in the lineup, not being disciplined up there.

Yeah, same with me.

But the guy that stand stands out because he really helped the Dodgers at one time was with the Cardinals, Edmond.

So yes, he would put the ball in play, but he really focused on hitting the ball on the ground, which was great.

And now you have almost a guarantee that the run is going to advance.

And the other guy came from the Dodgers, Lux.

A lot of times he's trying to be a slugger, but he can put the ball in play and, and he's a guy that situation with hitting, he's great because number one, he's left handed and most times than not he's trying to pull the ball.

He's going to hit it sometime weekly to the second base and first base.

So Fredo is going to have a chance to advance to, to the next base.

But he had a lot of ground balls through, through that hole between second and first.

A lot of times that second base is playing behind, behind second base.

So it's almost like, okay, we're going to bet I know he's going to hit it there.

And so Lux.

Lux and Edmund, those two guys really stand out.

And at one time, Edmund was a switch hitter, but he's.

He kept changing, finding out which side he's going to have more contact.

What you got, Rick?

Well, at first, I doing my research, the guys are back second a lot in there in the lineup.

In their lineup is Mookie Betts and Francisco Lindor, but they don't fit a typical contact players.

Oh, there you go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ozzy does, because he's not a bigger guy, but he can.

He hit to the right side a lot.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, also being a switch hitter, but with Lindor, it's that you don't want him.

It's like you're wasting him being in second.

Yes, but I want a guy, the guy that, like on the Reds, that I really want to be batting second.

People say, why him?

But we had to teach him how.

McClain, I agree with you.

But they got to be able to put him in a spot that he's got to be productive.

And Frito gets on base, he can bun him over or just give himself up.

Hit the ball to the right side and not getting the ball in the air.

And with that speed or even with that being what he should do, what he did do, he hit a lot of long fly balls.

I mean, every time I went to a game, he was.

He hit probably two or three to the warning track.

Whereas.

So if you've got somebody on base that's now productive because you're moving to third, you're scoring on that long fly ball.

If there's no.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

If there's nobody on base, then it didn't do anything.

Well, that's why with him, teaching him how to keep the ball out of.

The air, Got to keep him out of.

His hands are too far from his body.

He think he's a slugger, but just being able to put.

Put the ball in play with the speed that he has got.

I'm going to keep it.

I'm going to keep it rolling here so we can get through these.

Yes, sir.

So I'm going to go with the runner mover.

The runner mover is a fastball hunter.

He is aggressive at the plate.

He's looking for something to hit.

Can I put a bat on that?

He does not want to go there and come away with anything.

With anything else.

He's trying to drive the ball up the middle of the field.

He.

His job is to move the Runners.

We talked about this in the part.

One of the offensive objectives is that you know the best way hands down to move runners is with a hit.

And that's what this guy is out to get done.

He's looking for fastballs over the middle in a hitters count and he struggles with the slider especially from.

Especially from lefties.

Especially from lefties.

So this is going back back in history.

This guy Tim Foley when he went to Pittsburgh when he was with.

Yeah.

So Omar would get on base and either Foley would bunt, bunt the ball and get him to second then Omar was still third.

The infield doesn't want to come in because Dave Parker's up.

So.

But they score run that inning.

So that's a.

That's a big situation because I look at guys if you can score that run, score a run earlier, it puts the off the other team on.

On defense and.

But Foley could handle the bat well and.

But knowing that putting him second.

So now eliminate him getting breaking balls because you have a Parker behind you.

You don't want Foley on base when Parker's coming up.

If Parker hits a solo, that's fine.

But hit a two runner.

But Foley handled bat very well.

I just admired how to.

Because the Pirates look to be sluggers but they did play.

They manufacture one runs.

That's a.

That's an excellent point about the slugger who's maybe behind this guy controlling the.

The infield depth.

That's a.

That's an excellent point.

Who you got, Ethan?

My guy.

I went with Miguel Tejada because.

Because George often preaches the home run to RBI ratio.

And this guy had a career of almost one home run to four RBIs.

And so George looks for the one to three and he's got the one to four.

So this guy can have power and it's more of a.

Of a byproduct.

His power is going to be a byproduct rather than the intention.

So just an in.

And I know RBIs nowadays they're not valued as much because they say it's a.

It's a circumstantial situation.

But doesn't you still have to come through when you are in that situation?

So you can't ignore RBIs.

Yeah.

You play over 15 innings if you ignoring RBI.

That's true.

That's true.

What you got, Rick?

I have a father and son duo.

The Bonzes, the Guerrero.

Oh yes.

Oh, I like that.

Guerreros man.

They both hit three.

Yeah, yeah, they both hit three and.

Some sometimes they were the contact club or hitting balls that bounce on the ground and that kind of.

Especially the scene.

Especially him.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a, that's a great example.

Yeah.

Yes.

Especially dad.

But in the, in the, in the series that the Blue Jays just played in, man.

Boy, he.

Junior, he, he, he had a lot of rbis, man.

Yeah.

Always hitting the ball hard.

Yeah.

Home runs, RBIs, doubles.

Yeah, he, yeah.

So great.

Put the ball in, play hard.

Yeah, he does.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the funny thing they said about him is he's not a launch angle type guy.

It's.

Everything's line drive is just.

Yeah, well, he just had a different launch angle.

Yes, he has a different launch angle.

Stays inside very well.

This guy is.

He's going to probably have just, just under the max, the, just under the number of home runs that the top guys have.

But he's also going to be up there in doubles, his strikeout.

Yeah.

Rbi, his strikeouts might be a little bit higher.

Yeah.

But.

Yeah, that's a, that's a good pull.

But that's, that fits a Ted Simmons because they, from looking at Piazza, looking at Johnny Bench and they look at Ted Simmons, Ted Simmons going to hit for great average and still driving runs so you don't have to hit home runs to drive in runs.

And Jack Clark, that's the one that comes to mind.

Jack Clark, you've been in Atlanta with the Cardinals and man, the first and third, or second and third, he's going to hit the ball harder to right field than he did to left field.

Yes.

Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah.

When I, when creating this, I specifically took everything that George has said about his own playing career and tried to put these into the points.

So you, I wondered if you would catch on that.

But I know you were looking for the fastball.

You were an aggressive hitter.

You were always looking up the middle.

We talked about moving the foul poles in.

Yes, that's just right.

And he was not a fan of that left handed slide.

And you didn't like the left handed slider.

From what you said so far, Carlton.

It should have outlawed the sliders.

But, but even you've said yourself that your home runs were more of a byproduct, that you were looking to affect the situation rather than drive up your own tone.

That's where it should be.

Because people are looking for too much for results.

The, the results really the.

By playing a team game.

Yeah, that's what you're saying.

But this is a great teammate.

But your strategy up at the play, because Watching the Seattle play, Polanco, I'm glad he had redeemed himself.

He's up there with men first and third and he strikes out.

You cannot strike out in that situation.

But he's trying to hit a home run to be, to be a hero by hitting home run.

But the next time up, he was more disciplined.

I think that comes down to your hitting coaches too, man.

You know, just if you have some.

I just was just reading some have two.

That's too many.

I don't understand how.

Yes, you have a hitting coach and you have an assistant hitting coach.

Yes, exactly.

I just read about that is one.

For a right hand and one for a left hand.

The second guy is supposed to stand and say, yeah, what he said.

So, yeah, no, he's like, yeah, it's like Bubba.

Yeah, the enforcement, one of the fun things.

So in putting this together, Ethan actually had Chat GBT work up a scouting report on using.

Using George's career stats.

Wow.

This is my house.

So this is, this is what Chat GPT has to say about George Foster.

It says Foster was a prototypical middle of the order run producer with plot with plus raw power and a high impact bat from the mid-70s to the early 1980s.

He combined good contact rates with elite gap pull power in his prime, producing seasons of MVP caliber production, especially 76 through 79.

Over his full career, he graded well above average offensively.

OPS + of 126 and WRC + of 126, which matches his reputation as one of the era's best right handed sluggers.

That's what Joya.

That's what Chad GPT has to say.

Wow, these guys need to pay me for that.

I didn't know that Ethan is more than my podcast partner.

He's my son.

And like every baseball parent, my first priority was his development as a player.

Every year we'd start out with a new coach and a new team making new promises, only to end up playing the same old tournaments with little to no practice in between.

You know what I'm talking about.

That's why I'm so thankful that we found MDNI Academy.

I first met Coach Rick over a decade ago when he was just a kid.

And I'll never forget the relief I felt watching his first lesson.

I knew right then that no matter what team he played for, my son would have amazing, consistent instruction from someone who cared.

Rick has trained baseball and softball players at the select, travel and even college levels.

So I knew that Ethan could continue his excellence through training approach for his whole baseball career, he learned hitting, pitching, catching, fielding, and more all in one place.

Most of all, he learned to love the greatest game in the world and how to play it with character and integrity.

So if you're wearing yourself out running all over town to multiple teachers or worse, you're counting on that new select coach to actually develop your child.

You need to check out MDNI Academy today.

Go to mdaiacademy.com and contact Coach Rick to learn how you can get all the baseball instruction you need from someone who cares about your favorite player as much as you do at MDNI Academy.

All right, let's keep moving.

So the, so the next one we have is the power driver.

The power driver is big body, but he's slow.

He's got tons of power.

He struggles with breaking ball sometimes.

He's got a good plate coverage.

So he's got quite the reach, the big, big hitting zone and high swing and miss rate.

Yeah.

This is the guy who is hit.

Trying to hit a home run every single time.

And good plate cup, good plate coverage comes from.

He's probably, he's usually up on the plate a little more trying to take away that outside pitch because usually he's also looking to pull the ball.

So my, my, my, my.

Just absolute embodiment of this is, Is Adam Dunn, for me, a guy always looking to do.

And then I think also a guy who kind of took this too far.

A guy like Joey Gallo, a guy who had unreal power but couldn't make contact enough to make the adjustment.

Yeah.

So these guys usually have more strikeouts.

Can't.

Walks can be up there if, if you're afraid to.

If you're afraid to pitch to them.

But these guys aren't usually a base stealing threat.

But yeah, home runs is usually your indicator for this.

Those are great.

But the guy that he's not.

He's fast, but you can't steal first base.

Oh, he's fast, but.

But he is not a big body, but he strikes out a lot and he thinks he's a slugger.

Or it's Della Cruz.

Yeah.

And it just.

I had to get into biomechanics or physics with him because his swing is too long.

And each time up, each swing, it gets longer and they try to swing.

Yeah, yeah.

So.

And he's not the only Cruz in the NL Central that has this problem.

O'.

Neal.

Cruz is the same way.

Yes.

They have the same body type.

Exactly.

And he hits the ball pretty much harder than anyone else in the league.

He's also faster than pretty much everyone else in the league.

And so it's, it's, it just feels like a waste to not get to see him, you know, play to his full potential because he just walks back to the dugout after striking out and.

Guess what, where he's playing at?

He's playing center field.

No, no, the thing is the.

Oh yeah, the one with the Pirates.

So I know he didn't want to play center.

No, no he didn't because he tried to play himself out of playing center field.

Balls hit there.

He just take his time to get to it.

He wants to play short.

But he is two bookends though.

The Della Cruz with the Reds, he's aggressive.

The Della Cruz with the Pirates, not aggressive.

Here's all these right handed hitters, pitchers and he's taking fastballs down the middle.

Like swing the bat, swing the bat.

So if you can get a lower the power in a taser, you have to tase that guy to get him to react.

But there's a lot of potential there.

But these guys hit say 20 home runs.

Oh, I'm a home run.

20 home runs, that ain't nothing.

If we hit 20 home runs when we played during.

That's an offense.

Yeah, I hit 20 before All Star break.

But not bragging, but fact.

Anybody else come to mind, George, for you when we start talking about power.

Drivers, I was going to go but a lot of the, the parents would know it.

George Scott, you know, here's a guy not fast, but he's more of a slugger and he would, he strikes out a lot but when he makes contact, look out, it's Katie bar the door.

But George Scott stand out.

But it's.

Well, back when we played we didn't have a lot of guys that wasn't athletic.

They were not athletic.

Right?

Yeah.

And today some of these guys, I feel that they're not in shape, they're not in good condition and maybe he'll get better.

With Sal Stewart, you know, here's a great prospect but he needs to get.

Yeah man.

But he looks as though that he's been in the league like 10 years or so with, with his body type.

He looked a doughboy.

Well, it's like, it's like guys who are freakishly athletic that you wouldn't expect.

Guys like Prince Fielder and you're like.

Oh yeah, Pablo Sandoval.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, Pablo.

He, he ate himself.

Well, Bob Horner, they, they got an incentive if you're, if you get at a certain weight, you get a bonus each game.

Yeah, that's.

You talk about those big sort of thick kind of guys.

Buddy Bill was kind of like.

He was like, big kind of thick kind of guy.

Yeah, but he was athletic.

Yeah, he was.

He was still playing.

He was still playing hotcourt.

I'll put.

I'll put Josh Naylor in there too.

Yeah.

Especially now.

Yeah.

Just.

Just because a guy with his shape and athletic ability being able to steal third.

That's him.

That's just.

Yeah, that's.

That one I marveled at.

Cause this is what we've been talking about.

He got to second base, you see base.

Steelers not taking advantage of that.

And that was a key run in.

The playoffs when it mattered, Right?

Yeah.

Cause now he caught everybody by surprise.

And he just.

He went out there, had a game plan, gets on second base.

When you're on second base, you got one out.

If you have any type of speed, try to get a good jump.

And they talked a little bit about it, but with our talk about situational hitting, a situational play, that was great.

Who's on your list, Rick?

Well, I have two.

Two different spectrums.

Okay.

Cal Riley.

Yeah.

Okay.

And Jose Canseco.

Okay.

Jose had a lot of power, pulls a lot.

Pulled a lot of balls, you know.

Yeah.

And Cal Rally just dumbfounds me.

The fact being a switch hitter, being able to do what he does.

Unreal.

And.

And being a cat.

Yes.

And be a.

That guy, though.

He's always dangerous because he has an idea.

He's not balls outside.

He's not trying to pull everything.

He has put deadman for coverage.

We had a good year.

One year, Gedman, but he was doing that Charlie Ly style.

So he had the same swing, but they weren't throwing in that.

In that zone.

Yeah.

So those are my two.

Yeah, I like that.

Yeah.

Adam Dunn was the first person that came to my.

Adams.

Yeah.

Adam done.

When it came to 40.

40.

He got those, what, five years in a row or so, 40 home runs.

I also thought about.

Well before all the.

Before all the performance enhancement silliness.

But I also thought about Mark McGuire in this way.

Yeah, me too.

That was kind of his goal.

Yeah.

Kind of his thing.

Yeah.

For.

That's.

That's the cool thing about.

About Adam Dunn, you know, without being one of these steroid era guys, consistency can kind of.

Is going to elude this guy throughout the season.

Being that sometimes he can be a little more streaky because he's swinging for the fence so often.

And so he's going to.

He tends to strike out More.

Adam Dunn struck out a lot, but consistency over each season.

I find that interesting.

It was that he was able to replicate that over and over and over.

The other guy I was thinking about and this, this goes along with what George just said too, which is this guy played in an era when everybody was athletic.

It's just the way it was.

Is Dave Parker.

I was thinking in that God help you if he gets a hold of it.

But then he's.

He's also just tremendously athletic for his size.

Well, and that's what George's point I think brings up when we talked about this a lot in the home runs episode, how George was the only one to hit 50 home runs between maze and fielder.

Because like what you're saying, that wasn't really the goal of most guys.

That, that this player was not as common when you played, especially in the 80s.

It was so contact oriented.

Yeah.

Right.

And they.

Someone said that maybe the specialists in bullpen, you have a more relief pitchers coming in, so you're not facing that pitcher three or four times during, during the game.

So there were a lot of different changes.

I didn't think much about it until someone said what was the difference in that period from 70, what I was 62 to 77.

What was the big difference?

So.

And then, then even.

Oh yeah.

From.

Because I was the only one in the 70s and the 80s as far as hitting.

Right.

Yeah.

50 or more home runs.

Yeah.

The other, the other thing.

Oh, sorry, go ahead.

No, go ahead.

No, the other thing I was thinking about was I don't, I can't really think of.

You talk about a championship team back to back World Series.

You talk about 75, 76 with the red Machine.

And I don't really think of any of you guys as a, as, you know, like a big power.

I think everybody's moving run, everybody's moving runners.

Yeah.

It's not a go big or, or go home, but like Johnny Basketball, Johnny Bench, he wasn't fast, but he was quick and he was very disciplined up there.

He, he knew his zone.

Yeah.

And I don't think.

But it was a joke, you know, like, oh, one day I was caught off guard.

He said, jordan, congratulations.

I was like, on what?

You.

You made the club.

So what club.

You got 100 strikeouts.

Yeah.

I mean, Johnny could seriously hurt you.

Yes.

In the right time.

But Johnny was also.

He's just as likely to hit a double and move guys.

And you know, and same with Tony Perez too.

He's clutch.

He's more of a of a runner mover, a guy who's going to have a lot of, a lot of RBIs.

But the guy that maybe really fits that profile is Lee May.

Yeah.

But he ended up with, we had 3, 350, I think home 33350, 351.

Because Dick Allen thing had 351.

But here's a guy who was a slugger.

Yeah.

So he's going to go up there and hit his 35 or more home runs and he's going to have his strikeouts.

But you knowing that it's going to be a hit and miss situation.

But when he's hot, because like on say if he goes out Friday night and the next day he's, we say, how, how did you hit that ball?

I mean, you were out late last night.

He said, well, I look at, there are three balls there and so I hit the middle one.

All right, our last guy.

Last guy.

Hold on, hold on.

I have one other person that is a power driver, but he had great plate coverage and it says big body and slow.

But at the beginning of his career he stole a lot of bases and was a leadoff hitter until Jim Leland.

He says, I don't want to be a leadoff hitter.

Barry Bonds transition, for sure.

Transition.

So when he went to the Giants, he became more of a three hole hitter.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

So Barry Bonds, I would say power driver, hit for average walk.

Good on, just on base.

Good on base because nobody wanted to pitch to him too.

Yeah, that's true, that's true.

All right, Our last, our last, last profile is the patient poker.

This person is very disciplined at the plate.

Can hurt you on the pitch they're looking for, but only if it's exactly what they're sitting on.

Has the mindset that a walk is as good as a hit.

Works.

It works.

Account every time and has elite pitch recognition.

So the thing I want to keep in mind for, for really all five of these is that these are extremes on a spectrum.

So really good.

The good players are going to be a mix of, of all of these.

But the guy who I had in mind here, Gavin Lux and then also Joey Votto, guys with the mindset, guys with the, that that walk is as good as a hit.

And so they're a little more of a passive approach trying, trying to take those walks.

So these guys, the average might be decent.

You, you can't, you just can't expect.

Maybe the clutch is a little lower because of, because of what they're trying to do on Base percentage should be high.

But then it's not uncommon for these guys to be able to have some power and to really do damage when they get what they're looking for, for when.

When the pitcher makes a mistake and they can really, you know, punish him for it.

Muny for the Dodgers.

Here's a guy, he goes number one.

I want to change his stance.

He's.

He's down in the crouch, so now he's at a different level.

Then when he swings, he comes up, he's.

And then he first take the first pitch fast.

But he's a guest hitter or guest batter would say.

Yeah, but this guy, when he's hot, you know, he's a.

He put together a pretty good mass of home runs.

But this guy, he's been.

I don't know his age, but he's like.

He's been around a while.

Long time.

I think he came from the Oakland organization.

Yeah, he did, but he.

When he gets in there, he's.

He's still a threat.

And so Muncie really stands out.

And as far as discipline, he's not disciplined when he can do two strikes.

But I said, why did you take the first pitch right down the middle?

Oh, it's like.

It's like in golf, you know, I don't hit the ball.

I don't want to hit the ball in the face, middle of the fairway.

I hit in the rough or somewhere.

But this guy, when they.

They throw it in his zone, he'll hurt you.

Do you got what you guys think about Freddie Freeman?

Freddie, sorry.

When he's on, he's tough, but now when he's not on, he's.

He's missing his.

The zone because he's in between pulling and hitting the ball to left field.

Yeah, I think.

Because I thought about him when I, When I made this.

And this is a.

This is a point like what I just said.

How really good player is going to be a mix of everything.

Yeah, I think he's a little more.

He is patient, but he's also a little more contact.

So I think him and a prime Joy Votto are.

Are very similar players.

I agree.

But the guy, Olson, Olsen.

But there's a.

He has a lot of holes in a swing.

He will not change.

Well, it's funny that they traded for.

Right.

Well, he went from Oakland.

From Oakland to Atlanta and then.

Yeah.

And.

And Olson is, you know, he's a little unique in that he's also the power hitter.

So when, when he does that damage, it's even, you Know, even more so.

But it does seem to me that as players get older, they start to fall to the extreme of these stare.

You know what I mean?

When they're younger, they're a little more rounded, and then they start to fall in, you know, So a guy like David Ortiz, you know, he had more contact at the beginning, but then as his career progresses, it's more power.

Strikeout, kind of.

Kind of thing like that.

Yeah.

It's almost like when a guy get fatigued, they start being disciplined.

So they're looking.

They're hunting one location and trying to hit the ball out of the park.

They don't want to have to get on base and run the bases, but hitting the ball out of the ballpark instead of putting the ball in play.

If the patient poker is all about plate discipline.

When you say.

When you say a disciplined hitter, the very first name that pops into my mind is Ted Williams.

Yeah.

I don't know if Ted Williams fits this.

This particular profile.

Juan Soto.

And Juan.

He was my.

He was my current person.

Okay.

He was my current person.

But anytime someone says disciplined hitter, plate discipline, whatever, my brain automatically thinks about Ted Williams.

Yes.

Just because he.

He was just sort of.

I don't know if you could say that he was the godfather of it or whatever, but, man, that's where all the kids in my era, that's where we learned it, you know, science of hitting and y.

Yes.

So Ted Williams was highly influential in the way hitting was taught when I came up playing baseball.

That makes sense.

I have the book.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Our dad's learned, like, you know, when George is coming up, when my dad's coming up and they're playing, they're learning because they're learning.

You know, Ted Williams is still talking to people about it.

You know, that's the thing.

So they're learning this method, and that's why it comes.

It comes down and, you know, with the elbow up and the thing.

And I mean, it's a whole different that.

That thing that.

That I learned how to hit, and you looked at me like I had two heads, and it wasn't having any effect with you.

And that's why when I got you to Rick, and Rick was teaching you more of the newer ways to hit, it was.

It was actually helping you a lot more than.

Than what I was saying, because what I was coming from was just a different understanding of.

Yeah.

Well, I think the biggest thing with Ted Williams and his philosophy, the.

The lot, you have to be able to step over the boundaries a little Bit to fit it to the player.

So that's.

That's what really.

That's really what Rick did is he.

Looked at the word discipline and flexibility.

So Ted was really strict in being disciplined.

But I understand that helps you to be disciplined.

But finding out where you can hit.

Because now with kids, they too into strike zone.

Yeah.

And.

But it's okay if the umpire's good.

But nowadays that you gotta learn to get it hitting zone.

Expand that strike zone.

Yes.

Well.

And what was funny is my personality.

It's one of the reasons why I, I always.

I got fussed out a lot about.

They would teach us how to hit this way and then I wouldn't do it.

And I get fussed at a lot because I was a. I hated to see any pitch go by.

You're a rebel.

I wanted.

I wanted to put a bat on it.

If it was anywhere where I thought I could put a bat on it.

I was a first pitch swinger and it drove my dad crazy and I just.

I had no patience.

You're a good hit and run guy, though.

I wanted to hit that ball.

And I wasn't fast, but I had a better.

I had a better shot at making contact with that ball if I swung earlier.

Because the longer I stayed there, the more nervous I got.

I hated having two strikes on me.

I wanted to.

Especially if I had prune juice that day.

I wanted to pick a hittable pitch.

I wanted to pick a hittable pitch and get on it right now.

Yeah.

And that was one thing that always drove me crazy when you were playing.

Is it.

You know, we, we would go to these things and you'd watch the team and the kid throws the same pitch at the first, at the beginning of every single at bat.

Right.

I mean, even more than when you watch.

They do that in the.

They do that in the major leagues.

But when you were up, every single time that fastball came down the middle and every one of your teammates sat there and watched watch it go right back.

Because they were like, well, I got to take this first strike.

Are you kidding me?

Comes from overthinking.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I happen to know that the next thing he was going to.

Then he was going to turn and go to that and go that breaking ball secondary, which.

Which didn't work for him or was a little more.

He'd come at you with that speed change and they throw a little bit of a change and then now everybody's way ahead of it, you know, because he set you up with that fastball that you weren't going to swing at.

Because he knew we weren't going to swing at.

Right.

Because nobody swung at it all day.

And it's in the fourth inning.

So, you know, this is, this is the.

Part of the strategy from the other side is if I'm going to.

I'm going to, you know, throw fire in there the first.

First time everybody gets up there and you're not going to swing at it, I'm going to come back with something right.

You know, that's smarter, you know, slows down.

But the same thing when, say it's the ninth inning and you down seven runs, and I'm telling the kids, swing the bat.

They're up there.

I want to take.

I want to take to get on base.

But you didn't do any much earlier.

You think you're going to have a separate inning.

Swing the bat.

Even though.

Even though you're not feeling that you're in this game, get yourself ready for the next game.

And I've never understood that.

That frustrates.

That will get me to turn off a Reds game faster than anything in the world.

If we get to.

To 7, 8, 9 innings and we're standing there watching pitches go by and I will just.

I will just shut the thing off.

Why?

Why I'm not going to do this because it just raises my blood pressure.

But it's up to the.

The management, though, the manager or the batting coach.

Swing the bat.

That's one that I have to hand it to them.

In that series against the Dodgers, they swung and they swung at everything, but.

They needed a pitcher wedge to hit most of them.

Oh, my gosh.

They chased every breaking ball that Yamamoto had in his pocket.

Pocket man.

Oh, and Blake Snell and all this.

So, George, tell me this was.

Was Clue a big fan of the hitting zone and being aggressive, or was he more of a plate discipline guy?

It's a combination.

It's.

It's hot in a sense.

Well, he was disciplined in the sense that the.

Especially Perez Foster bench, even Morgan middle.

If the counts in your favor, look middle in right.

So.

And counts say you have two strikes, you still want to be aggressive, but look in middle away.

Yes, but it's not.

When you have two strikes, not still looking for a ball inside because he's expand.

You're going to expand your zone, and that's.

As a power hitter, you need to do that.

If you're a singles hitter, you know, just.

It doesn't matter putting the ball in play.

You don't.

You're not looking to.

Yeah, you want to drive the ball, but not out of the ballpark.

But when you the counts in your favor, look at middle end.

I had guys who, they had a 20 count and they swung the pitches outside for base hit.

They're excited, got a base hit.

And then I asked him, I said, okay, who won that battle?

Why did I got hit?

I said, no, he kept you in the ballpark.

You didn't get any extra base hit.

Look for a pitch middleman.

But a lot of guys don't have the confidence to do that.

They don't.

And, and that's why a lot of them get jammed a lot.

Like George Austin Hayes, he the counts in his favor and the ball's outside a slider.

He swings at it like.

But they may not trust being having two strikes on him.

Yeah.

So he's got to know the mindset of that person.

Yeah, I used to get nervous at two strikes, man, because I was like.

I did not want to be the kid I was a better hitter with.

Yeah, better hit it with two strikes.

I wish I could have done that.

I wish I would have felt more confident.

But what I.

Two strikes just felt like, okay, I've lost twice and I'm almost out.

I need it.

I need to, you know, do something desperate here.

Level swing, let it travel, wait for your pitch.

Be aggressive out there.

It's no wonder young players get confused at the plate.

What if your son or daughter could learn not only how to hit the ball but but also where to hit it, when to hit it there and why?

George Foster has played baseball at the very highest levels.

He was the National League MVP when he hit 52 home runs and 149 RBIs in a single season.

He led the major leagues and home runs twice and RBIs three times.

He was a five time All Star, a Silver slugger and he helped the Reds win back to back World series.

During his 15 year career, George developed a unique approach to hitting that made him one of the greatest hitters of all time.

And now your favorite player can learn it too.

That's right.

Baseball legend George Foster is currently accepting new students.

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So check out George Foster baseball.com to learn how you can apply for private lessons with a member of the Cincinnati Reds hall of Fame.

Spots are limited and the roster will fill up fast.

So don't wait.

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So those are our.

Those are our five profiles.

The lead off, the contact club or the runner mover, the power driver, and the patient Poker.

Now, we actually.

We actually profiled 10 different people when we did this.

And so we're going to meet some.

We're gonna meet some more profiles as we go forward.

Great job, Jake.

Great job.

Ethan, you did a lot of research.

He did.

But the biggest thing is that when you.

When you enumerate it to those different ones, you get things like the.

Well, the balanced, you know, or the.

Or the doubles guy or the.

Yeah.

And so it gets a little more subjective, but it becomes a mix of these.

And so these are.

Like I said, these are the extremes of the spectrum.

And you want bits and pieces from each one of these.

And you might even could say you want to avoid becoming one of these entirely because you want.

We talk about having, Having tools in the toolbox, you know.

Right.

Yeah.

You don't.

You don't want to be stuck in a hole, you know, you want to be able to be moved throughout the lineup if you need it, or be able to do different things based on what the situation costs.

We talked about that with regard to, like, guys like Pete or.

Okay, this is what the team needs.

Okay, I'll learn to do that job.

You know, it's.

You want to be a guy who has options.

Yeah, for sure.

So they can.

But in Pete's case, you know, the best spot was leading off and Wade Boggs the same way.

Boggs, maddenly.

Yeah, Ichiro.

But mainly Wade Boggs.

He could hit home runs, but by giving up how much he's giving up, if he's trying to hit home runs, if he's gonna hit in the 40s or more, but in his average, and I got to suffer, but he just felt, okay, I'm going to hit the ball between short and third.

Go from there.

So what we're going to do is in light of.

We've had a really good discussion.

It's kind of gone longer than we thought.

But I've really enjoyed what we've done.

What we're going to do is we're going to break this into two parts.

And so next week we'll get to pitch.

Sequencing, pitch, strategy, specific strategy.

So if you made it this far and you're going, hey, what about that?

Just tune in next week.

We'll get to it.

It'll be fine.

And I'll put, you know, it does say part one.

Good.

Okay, good.

There you go.

But before we, before we're done, we want to wrap up with some skills and drills, ideas.

And Ethan, you had some interesting questions regarding this, so why don't you share?

Yeah.

The biggest thing is the guys in the bigs are the best of the best.

It's their job to do what they're doing.

And so it's good to look at them as the ideal, but also have the self awareness to know, and I'm talking about the youth level, to know that you're not there yet.

And they've done a lot of growing through.

Well, they're way past puberty, but also growing in the weight, growing in the weight room and that kind of thing.

So there's a lot of intention to build the physique that they have.

So Rick, when we look at these different, these different archetypes.

Well, I have, I have it.

I have the question in two different parts.

One, I'll break them up so I don't throw too much at you.

Number one, how do you use this?

How does this information translate to the youth level?

Should you try to fit a specific role or should you try to remain flexible and when should you do one or the other?

That's a good question.

I think being flexible because each kid is different in how they internalize hitting and their bodies and things.

But also I think sometimes we give kids too much information.

So if they're going to an instructor and then they going to and listening to their coach and then they're listening to maybe her dad or someone like that.

So a lot of stuff might get internally or if they don't do stuff on their own.

So I just keep it simple.

Yeah.

And I think that's one of the main things, understanding letting kids know or helping them understand where they like to hit the ball at.

I think George went over that and the umpire strike zone when you're in the box.

I just had a kid the other day.

I said, do you, when you in the box, do you keep track of the account in your head?

Do you understand what's going on?

What they.

So you gotta really.

It's a, it's a thinking game.

This is based by iq.

It's a thinking game and you need to understand what's going on at the same time.

Yeah.

And so I think I, I like, I like that.

And I think what we uncovered in, in the hitting episode was the, the approach of looking middle in, in a hitter's count and then getting, not, not getting defensive until you have two strikes.

I agree that whole concept that applies for all five of these guys.

There are certain blanket approaches that everybody can have and that just because you're a fast guy or just because you're a big guy with a lot of power doesn't mean that you have to hit like that.

There are certain, there are certain concepts that transcend.

Well because especially as a, as a young player, you may not be a fast guy next year and you may not be a big guy next year.

You may be big right now.

Yeah.

Because everybody else hadn't grown yet.

And then you may find out that, you know, you're an average size down the road or everybody got bigger than you.

Yeah.

You know that that changes so often.

Which is what brings me to a clarifying question which is how, at what age do you expect to start seeing people show tendencies to, toward one of these profiles or another?

When, when do you start looking for them to, to show those things?

Go ahead.

Round 14.

Just because now, now, now you got to decide on not only what by that time you trying, you find out what type of player that guy's going to be and then also deciding on what sport you're going to be.

You got to make decisions at that time frames.

But say eight years.

Yeah.

High school, when you start in the high school, that's.

And then the, the length of the bases change.

Yeah.

Things as such.

And yeah, guys who are, you're taller than before.

You're, you're the shortest one on the team.

And then so it's a lot of adjustments that are taking place.

But when, when you start with a 8 years old younger kids, you looking at what they can do and not forcing them into a certain role.

I like that.

Exactly.

You take, take what you have rather than currently, rather than say, rather than forcing them to specialize into a certain role.

Yeah, I really like that because for me I was a bigger kid and so I just assumed the mindset of the slow guy.

And so I never, I feel like I never really broke out of that.

And so I didn't steal hardly any bases and I didn't, I was never going to try to bunt.

I tried too hard to, to hit for power rather than just having, having an approach and keeping it simple.

That's a great.

Grow into that role as you move.

Yes.

So I was just telling another kid yesterday, I was like what you are today, a year, year from now you won't even be that kid, man.

You might be somewhere else depending on how you grow into your body.

And so that's why George hit on Something about expanding the zone.

That's why I tell kids there's.

There's no such thing.

Well, it is as perfect BP when you come in, right?

Because there's going to be times where I'm trying to strike you out.

I'm trying to throw a change up to make you foul it off or you look or whatever, and it's okay if you go down swinging or if you miss, if you.

And I get it.

It's so excited when you foul off a tough bridge, man.

You know?

So those are things that you got to keep playing over and over and over with.

Growth.

Yeah.

That is growth.

I. I like the idea of taking a look at these.

You know, when you get to the.

When you get to the majors, these may be.

These may be slots that hitters.

These may be profiles that hitters sit squarely.

Yes.

Right.

When you're a kid, these are jobs that need to be done.

Okay?

So if you look at that in terms of.

Go back to when I would coach fall ball, okay.

And we had a bunch of kids on the team, and we were having a good time, and whatever my approach would be, I would go, okay, And I'd say, mitch, here's what I need.

I need you to go out there and get this kind of.

I need to go out there and just put a bat on it.

Just put it in play, make this happen.

Or I just.

I need you to go out, you know, Wave.

I need you go out there and get on base.

Wave was great at getting on base.

Okay.

He was fast and he could hit the ball, and he was the closest thing I had to Ricky Henderson, man, just go get on base and then go tear it up and freak him out on the base path.

So, you know, thinking about what I may need in this situation may be different than what we need in another game in this situation and trying to teach the kids to do these kinds of things as different jobs that need to be done.

This is a great profile for.

For coaches when they're gouting kids and.

And then.

Then also teaching them.

Yeah, yeah.

Because the kids may not understand, and then they.

They may get a complex.

You're like, what?

They said I was slow and things of such.

They lose that confidence.

Yeah, yeah.

So I. I look at it as.

I don't necessarily want a kid to think, okay, I'm a contact clubber, but I want to be able to say, okay, you're coming up in the.

In the game, you're coming up in the lineup.

Here's what I need you to Do I need you to go out and do this job?

And, and you know, and it can change.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So if you have, like we said, like 10 different profiles.

Okay, you.

How do you.

How do I get to 5 this.

The things that you need to do to get there.

And you look at, you know, if you're in a tournament, you're in pool play, you've got, you're that particular weekend, you got a kid who's just, I mean, normally he's a, he's a, a contact clubber, but now he just has a thing going where he's moving runners.

He just, he, he seems to be seeing the ball well and he's on.

Or we got runners on base or the opposite.

Is your aggressive guy, for whatever reason, just has his bat on the shoulder.

Yeah.

You.

You got to adjust.

Yeah.

And so you got to move your lineup around.

Yeah.

And you may have that.

You may have to say, okay, I need you to do this job now.

Yeah.

And I'm not necessarily telling them these profiles.

I'm not necessarily telling them naming it going.

I need you to be this guy.

What I'm saying is I need you to move here in the lineup and do this job now.

Yeah, there you go.

Or the thinking.

Yeah.

So now the guy that was aggressive before, he's not as aggressive.

So you put a hit and run on, encouraging him to swing the bat.

A lot of times they don't, they don't want to swing the bag because now it's like, if I miss it, it's on me.

But now at least I'm aggressive.

I want you to be aggressive because you don't understand that even though you're swinging the bat and you miss it keeps the catcher back.

Yes.

Because I had, I had one play.

I.

It resonate from that day to now.

I knew that it was a tie ball game and we weren't really the team they looked to win.

So I had my catcher at first base.

There are no outs.

And, and the guy who's up, he had the tendency to take the first pitch.

So they knew that.

So I said, okay, first pitch, hit and run.

And McCatcher got thrown out by a small margin.

But if the guy would have swung the bat, we would had first and third.

But didn't did that saying, my bad, I go.

Or somebody like the umpire apologized to Sanchez.

I was a strike.

I'm sorry I called the ball on you, but how can I, you know, benefits from him.

Now.

The second part of my question is how do you identify the opposing players and slot them into these different profiles to then attack.

But I will save that for next time because that, that, that's a much more in depth question.

Yeah, how do you take.

How do you take that?

I watched BP experience and then distill that into a strategy because you might.

Have to pitch backwards.

You know what I'm saying?

Save it, save it.

Because pitching backwards is.

I love pitching backwards.

But, but point being, I like pitching.

In reverse, but pitching backwards like I'm from another country.

I don't know what that's talking backwards.

Yeah, that's talking backwards.

But I like.

Because you don't.

For you and your own team, you don't want, you don't want to put too many labels on kids because it's then they try to form their identity in that label rather than kind of exploring what they're able to do.

But when you're a, when you're playing against a team, you're trying to identify who they are and what they do and then how to exploit it because they're the opposition.

So I'm gonna add one more to that.

What you got?

So George and I've, I've ran into that Parents will call you up and they'll kind of give you a scouting report of their kid.

Yes.

Oh, he's.

Yes.

Oh, he does it hit here.

He does this and that one is that they don't strike out.

Oh, he's not aggressive.

So then, and I get him.

I said, I don't see nothing wrong with him.

Not what you're thinking that it is.

And then I just said, man, he's just not being aggressive.

Just swing the bat, man.

And swing the bat.

Boom.

They start hitting it out like that was it, man.

Okay, you can go on them.

The other thing is, you know, if you're, if you're coaching little kids, let's say you're coaching seven, eight year olds, nine year olds, man.

There nothing wrong with before the game.

Okay, everybody sit down.

I'm going to give you the lineup today, okay?

So Joey, you're up first.

Now, what I need for you today, you're the leadoff guy.

That means I need you to do this.

Okay?

Now you're coming behind, I mean you.

And you're teaching them sort of what the jobs are by where they are in the lineup.

They may be in a different spot in the lineup in the next game.

You know what?

I want to know why.

Yeah, yeah, but you know, so.

And it could be.

Yeah, it's seven, eight, nine year old.

Is it Isn't because they didn't do a good job in that last week.

It's because.

Yeah, we're just moving.

Work on a different skill.

Yeah.

So.

But the idea is that when you set the lineup, rather than say, here's a card, here's the lineup, everybody read your name.

All right.

More often, something else.

Tell them why they're first.

Tell them why they're hitting in the three hole.

Tell them why they're.

They're hitting.

You know, unless there just really isn't any reason.

You just put them on there.

But it's still.

At the same time, tell them what the person in that slot in the lineup should be thinking about.

We only have nine players.

Had to put you somewhere.

But I mean, use that, Use that opportunity when you're coaching the little kids to start teaching them about making lineups and what lineups.

But that's the key to a coach being able to teach these kids and finding out, like the bottom line is finding a position they can be in to help them to be successful.

Yes, I'll guarantee there were.

There were, you know, select teams, even high school teams that you played on, where guys went up and saw where they were in the lineup and had no idea why they were there or.

Just assumed that they should be higher and then didn't think about what it means to be a lower and become withdrawn.

Yeah, it just didn't walk away.

They didn't walk away going, okay, they got me hitting six.

That means I need to be thinking about this.

Yeah.

And then.

Or last.

Exactly.

It just becomes a negative thing.

And there's a lot of value to those eight and nine guys.

Right.

Because you're in the lineup.

Yeah, that's what I used to say.

That's.

Hold on.

I used to say that as long as you see your name in the lineup, that's a.

But you.

We're counting on you.

You're only guaranteed to hit in that order one through nine once.

It might happen again, and you might turn up, start the inning at the top of the order, but it's not.

More often than not, that's not going to happen.

So I think you could make every kid just pick a number one through nine, and then that's.

That's where they get.

And then, okay, you picked it.

You have to do this.

But that's why I'm.

Because I'm closer to the team.

That's what I think.

The Reds, they need to know why they're there.

Yeah, but you put.

Put it.

You put a steer.

And second, I don't want him second because he, I want to go put him in a spot that he's gonna drive and run.

Yeah.

So he goes second.

Okay.

Now I, I don't think he's gonna be as aggressive batting second.

And, but then if you have him second because you want to get him more fastballs, a hit now you got to get encourage freedom to steal more even, even if you get thrown out, you're attempting, you're letting the other team know when you're going to give that effort.

Right.

Right.

So okay, well that's where we are this week.

So next week we will, we will come back with the in depth look at pitch selection, pitch sequencing, different strategies to use from the mound.

How do you come at hitters in these profiles, doing these jobs.

And we hope you'll join us.

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Come back next week and hear part two.

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