Continuing on from what we just started, um, that was good.

That was really good.

Morgan Hausel, and the book is called The Psychology of Money.

Is that right?

Now, from what I understand of this guy is, um, He was a journalist or

he, he worked in, in, in private equity and, uh, hedge funds or

something like that for a bit.

Mm-hmm.

And then he became a journalist and just continued being a journalist

and just talk, writing about money.

And the principle that he was talking about, uh, was the difference

between being rich and being wealthy.

In his interpretation, being rich is essentially the outward appearances of

having lots of money and being wealthy is really how much money you actually

have or how he was, he's interesting.

He was talking about this idea of, um, Agency autonomy and freedom is why.

So it's less about what do I, how rich do I look is how free do I feel?

Which is, I think, connected me to the whole money stories thing because of

course when you say money is freedom, then it has a whole load of connotations.

But in his case, and this is quite interesting 'cause it kind of, um,

it mirrors some of the stories that I've had from my dad about money.

Because for him, money is about making choices.

So if I want to get a private dentist, I can go to a private dentist.

If I have an accident and I, and I need to get healthcare, I don't

have to worry about going bankrupt.

If I want to go on a holiday, I can choose to go on a holiday

without second guessing.

It's like I, money gives me choice is one of, that's the big story I got

from my dad when I was thinking, when he, when he talked to me about money.

Mm-hmm.

And so on one hand, totally agree, you know, and I kind of live my life to that

as like, I like this idea of having so much in the bank, so that should the fit

hit the shan, or should I want something, I have the money to choose to buy it.

Mm-hmm.

Um, hi Krystle.

I just saw your chat there.

Oh, Krystle's here.

Wow.

Krystle knows a lot about money as well.

Um, love to hear your thoughts actually, Krystle, if you want to join us

and for a chat, please let us know.

Just put it in the chat and we'd love to just bring you on

board for a bit of a chit chat.

Anyway, going on.

This is great for podcasts.

Continue on from that.

So, on one hand, and maybe this is my conditioning, I do see that if I've got

x, hundreds, thousands, whatever, much in the bank, that gives me choice in terms

of I can buy services and products that I need to, to do the things I want to do.

And if I do it unconsciously or if I, I'm not conscious of that link

of the story to the money, then that might affect my decisions in a way

that aren't necessarily beneficial.

You reminded me of actually a lot of, some of the good stuff that was in the

book, which is the thing around the, this point around kind of what is rich

or what is wealthy, agency, autonomy, all of those, all of those sorts of things.

'cause you know, that is a lot of what is, is, is kind of very

good, uh, about the book for sure.

Well, now you've got me off on another tangent.

Mm-hmm.

Because, uh, and on one hand, so the whole rich, wealthy thing,

um, he talks about the, we gauge our worth based on comparison.

Mm-hmm.

We are really rubbish, objectively, objectively

defining our own value is people.

Mm-hmm.

And so even if you have a million pounds in the bank, you'll be looking

at someone who's got 10 million and thinking, oh my God, I'm not like them.

Or even if you've got 10 million, you think, I wish I had a hundred million.

Yeah.

And even if you've got a hundred million, you'll say, I wish I was like Elon Musk.

So there's always this comparison aspect to how you think about

your own worth or value.

Which are then kind of, again, I'll link back to the Happy Pricing course.

Mm-hmm.

And this idea about how we price and the idea of anchors and,

and relative differences choice.

In the book he talks about how much agency, autonomy, freedom, choice

that you can get when you have a certain amount of money in the bank.

And so, Rather than spending money to show that you look good.

Mm-hmm

investing, storing, keeping, whatever it is, but basically having wealth that

will give you possibility and choice.

But then, and this is where I was thinking back to it, that's a story now because

then the idea is that if I don't have money, potentially I don't have choice.

If I don't have money.

Mm-hmm.

I don't have freedom.

If I don't have money, I don't have agency.

Mm-hmm.

And so, Part of, I think this conversation, um, is go for me, um, where

I'm at is like, how do we unattach some of these stories or at least be aware

mm-hmm

of these connections, of the stories to the money.

And then how do we, how does that, what does that mean in terms of the

conversations we have with other people about price and, and even just

conversations about money and why that makes us feel uncomfortable?

Would it be helpful if, um, I went sort of back just a, a, a mini step and, um,

we just sort of shared some of the context behind our thinking for the planning

of this, uh, of this, this podcast.

Talk, the sort of conversation.

So, um, a few weeks ago, um, some, you know, some listeners

may know, others may not know.

Uh, you guys Happy, Startup, School put on the excellent, um, summer

camp weekend full of talks and all those, all those goodness.

And there was a number of kind of workshops there.

Krystle ran an excellent workshop there who's, who's listening in live now.

Uh, and uh, so there were kind of workshops there on, uh, money stories.

There's workshops, we ran, workshops on pricing.

I've many, many other things of course, with that,

Um, but one of the things that we noticed that is, is kind of how kind of resonant

the, the idea around money stories is for people, you know, it see, it seems to

really kind of, um, I would say kind of touch a nerve, maybe that is the point.

It actually kind of touches a nerve for people.

It triggers something in people.

It's kind of curious for people and, you know, so we, we assume

the kind of interest and intent.

Behind exploring that is a positive one.

And that probably reflects a lot of, you know, typically who is in the community,

who comes to the events of yours.

There is a, there is a curiosity about inquiry.

There is a, a kind of willingness and desire to, to kind of

look inside and go deeper.

And in service of kind of understanding, well, if I look inside and go deeper,

how that will kind of shape and affect the work that I do and, and

the relationship between those things.

So on the one hand, we were, uh, kind of looking at that about how people

kinda responded that, like I said, to Krystle's excellent workshop to

another Charles Davis, also around excellent workshop, these things and

people really sort of drawn to it.

So on the one hand, looking at that.

In addition to that, actually just in the, in the few days kind of after

summer camp, I was in a situation where I was negotiating with, with a client.

And, uh, you know, I, I've kind of worked on these things, thought about

these things, studied these things for 20, 30 years, and, you know, both in

terms of kind of running my old business and all the, the kind of work I do now.

So even with all of that, I've kind of caught myself, found myself in a situation

where I was negotiating with a new client, and actually kind of, sort of caught

sight of a lot of these, some of these kind of sort of money stories, some of

these kind of, the fears, the worries, the feelings, you know, the kind of,

'cause one of the stories I was kind of hung onto was this idea that money was

security, which kind of is a different sort of flip on what you were sort of

talking about, one of the stories you got from your dad, money is kind of freedom.

For me money is security.

And so again, the same thing that comes up.

If you don't have money, then the, the kind of the story is, or the

extrapolation is you don't have security.

And so the thing that I kind of noticed that this was just in a

single kind of one-to-one negotiation with a prospective client.

There's nothing really life changing, hanging on the line here.

But even there, kind of bubbling away under the surface is this kind of worry,

this kind of real kind of deep, kind, deep lying kind of, uh, old story that,

like I said, even with kind lot work is, is kind of prone to kind of bubble up.

And so I think one of the things that we were sort of really curious about,

particularly, you know, partly around the work that we do on kind of happy pricing

and partly about the work that everybody, all the kind of listen, all the community

do all the time in how they kind of sort of sell their work, how they engage with

prospective clients in a sense, the kind of, well, the kind of reminder I had a

little bit was that, you know, if you really want to positively affect your

kind of pricing, if you really want to do all of the things that lots of people

do want to do, which is why they kind of work with us, essentially, how do you

remove the guesswork from your pricing?

How do you start to kind of price and earn your work, earn your worth?

Actually, you can't really do that in a sort of consistently sticky,

positively sticky way if you are not also actually starting to kind of look

inside so you are a bit more aware of what those stories are, what those

triggers might be, you know, that actually does create a kind of a, a more

fertile ground for you to be ha able to have kind of positive conversations.

Because the other thing that, you know, comes up a lot on the course and, and

the work that we do, kind of beyond that, ultimately, of course people need

to get comfortable talking about money.

Uh, and you know, in a way we can't really be comfortable talking about

money if actually we are sort of, running a bit scared from the emotional

triggers that pop up when we do.

So it was kind of more, I think, a realization, a reflection that

came on the back of those various things that actually, yes, all the

tools and tactics in the world, actually, yes, they're useful.

Yes, they're good.

But actually, if you have those things without the complimentary kind of

awareness and inquiry, understanding money stories, then you're never

gonna be in a situation where you are kind of more comfortable being

able to sort of talk about money.

And if you can't talk about money, the other two things equally

don't work in isolation either.

So that was really kind of what was starting to kind of bubble up and sort

of inform this conversation today.

So you said you were having conversations with a prospective

client and, and you saw, um, or you experienced some discomfort

mm-hmm

I assume is what happened.

Were you able just for the, uh, to illustrate and bring it, bring that

point a bit home to, to anyone listening is like, were you able to identify the

source of that discomfort or was, you know, was it a particular story or was

it just, just a general discomfort?

So I, I think for, um, for me, I think there were a few things.

The, the discomfort was kind of rooted in a few things, some of which are

kind of linked to money, some which are not linked to money, but you know,

they all kind of, they all kind of, sort of swirl together in one sort of

happy sort of cocktail of discomfort.

Uh, and so on the one hand, uh, there is a kind of discomfort, a kind of

realization that when I'm actually in, in some, when I'm talking kind of one-to-one

with a prospective client, you know, that trying to kind of hold steady, the

idea that whether they choose me or not is not some sort of indictment on me.

Uh, so there's a kind of discomfort around am I being chosen, am I being rejected?

Am I good?

Am I bad?

Essentially, kind of rumbling around into that.

So there's that sort of going on.

That sort of kind of, you know, sort of twirls together, kind of fuses together

a little bit with a more kind of money specific thing, which is like, one

of the stories I always kind of had growing up in the somewhere is that

this idea that, that money was security.

And so like this, Sort of manifest for me in a, uh, like when I was

running the company, that we always had these real big cash reserves.

And that was partly because, you know, you know, we can sort of talk

about the importance of, you know, how, how, you know, how much you

should have and all those things is, is a sort of separate conversation.

But because money was linked to, uh, this, this story of security, I felt more

comfortable the more cash reserves we had.

Now, like I said, there is some value in that, but up to up to a

point and I, you know, so that is a sort of separate conversation.

But yeah, so for me, given this kind of money is security story.

I was in a situation where, you know, partly so the kind of those underlying

doubts, are they gonna choose me?

Are they not gonna choose me?

Do they like me?

Do they not like me?

Am I good?

Am I bad?

Am I being rejected?

All of those sorts of things.

Um, that kind of fuses together then with the kind of money security thing

kind of, which affected how, how hard I was willing or how willing I was

to hold a line on what I knew the, the work was actually worth to them.

So it all kind of, sort of fused together and I think the sort of

discomfort really was around those two kind of, sort of ugly beasts.

That's that's great.

'cause now the way I'd hook into that for me as well, um, I, I have a

similar kind of experience of like, oh, if they reject me or reject

this offer, are they rejecting me?

Mm-hmm.

Is this, is it saying something about me?

And so for me, there's a, there is a, uh, a fear of rejection.

There's a fear of, um, not even, uh, there's this also this fear of what

they, what's going through their minds?

How are they thinking about me?

You know, what is it that the, the judgments they're making?

So there's the fear of judgment.

And then also with the security thing, I, I have a similar

association with money and security.

I.

And my projection onto them.

Mm.

So if I have a belief that they have only a certain amount of money, I have no idea.

I dunno their bank accounts.

Mm-hmm.

And I believe if they spend that, you know, quite a substantial chunk

of money with me, I'm potentially taking away from their security.

And I couple that with another belief about I wanna be fair, or I don't

want to take advantage of people, or whatever that story again, fear

of rejection, fear of being judged.

Then it starts to get in some really messy cocktail of, I was like, oh, I, you

know, I, I, I believe, and I've done all the tactics and strategies, I know that

this is a good price, and because they're resisting slightly, I'm starting to

project my stories and beliefs onto them.

And coupled with that, this thing that, oh, because I'm taking away

the security, they're gonna hate me because I'm taking away the there.

Um, Krystle is ready to have a chat with us, so I'm gonna

see if she has any reflections.

Yeah, exactly.

Let's see if Krystle can fix us.

So before we get into the weeds, um, please share, uh, a bit about what

you do and also could you share also what you did at summer camp for us

so that people have some real context around the money conversations.

Yeah.

Um, okay.

So my background is I'm a charter accountant and I, about six years ago,

connected finance to psychology and dived deeper into behavioral science psychology

behind your financial decision making.

Uh, so my expertise lies in understanding the psychology behind you, what you do.

So it can be applied to healthcare, consumer behavior, et cetera,

but my thing is, is finance.

Uh, so I work with people one-on-one and in group settings to help

them understand their relationship with money fundamentally.

Um, and I heard you guys talking, there are so many

different things that go into it.

And I also do some work with corporates as well along the same lines.

Um, and in terms of summer camp, which was amazing, first time, um, those who

haven't gone, you have to go next year.

I will be there next year in case I haven't said Carlos.

Um, yeah, we worked on values and we did lots of exploring and understanding of

understanding what money meant for them.

And, you know, a lot of the people in the group were talking

about wanting to earn more money.

But even feeling uncomfortable about it, like you said, Ben actually, or

not knowing how to go about it and feeling like it was unjustified.

Like, okay, can I do this?

Is am I allowed to?

And you know, I got 'em to focus back in terms of what

is it you want from your life?

Why are you doing this?

And making that connection so they can start seeing, okay, I want this

life, this is gonna make me happier.

So, and even in terms of them delivering their service or product,

you know, for good, you know, good causes, they need to be in a certain

place to be, be able to do that.

And if you are not fulfilling your needs and working in line with your

values, that's gonna be hindered.

So it was really great and I, I think, you know, they gave great feedback

so I think they enjoyed as well.

That's brilliant.

And it's fascinating.

And what, what what's now happened is I thought we were converging on

something and now I'm feeling, ah, there's so much other stuff I wanna talk.

I know.

Which is great.

Which is great.

'cause I think there's a deeper level here.

There's, one way is this idea about talking about money and the conversations

we have, and I'm really curious to get your perspective on this and, and

the discomfort we feel, and we just talked about projections, so these,

your whole background and psychology, we'd be interesting to get any thoughts

and ideas you have around that.

And then the other aspect of this is you talked about, um, well, what I heard

anyway, Was, uh, something about value.

Am I allowed?

It sounds like, am I allowed to charge this or something like that?

I'm allowed to accept this money?

But also underneath that I'm also hearing, I'm also kind of connecting.

Am I allowed to do this type of work?

Am I allowed to be an entrepreneur?

Am I allowed to work a four day work week, a three day work week?

A coach who only works 10 hours a month while other people are

working 40 hours, you know, a week?

Okay, so lemme try at the beginning.

Where you started talking about money projections and I think, yeah, I was on a

IG Live just yesterday and we spoke about the conversation of money itself and for

many, it's still so deeply uncomfortable.

And I didn't quite catch, I think I might have missed you guys talking about

it earlier, and you know, even if we go back to the home and what was normal at

home, you know, in those early years of life, that's where so much is embedded

within us and carried throughout our lives, even if we don't realize it.

So if you've been raised in a society or your Pearse and talking about money

is so uncomfortable, or we know that, I think you mentioned this actually, how

we compare ourself to others is like the crux of us as human beings, right?

So if we are acting, behaving, spending, buying certain things, living in a

certain area to signal to our peers that I, I deserve to be in this community,

then talking about the truths of your finances may make that be questioned.

So that could also be a fear and that makes talking about money uncomfortable.

'Cause then you're potentially exposing that actually I had to

work really hard to get this thing to be like you, which sounds is, is

really kind of stripped right back.

We don't think that way actively, not at all.

Um, so I think that's one area about talking about money that

makes it really uncomfortable.

And the other side of that as well, I, I like to say all the

time we weren't taught about money.

So for a lot of us, we don't know about money.

We don't know how to do it, and that's okay.

And I think a lot of people are thinking that because they don't know what to

do with money, then they are, they're embarrassed, they're, they're, you

know, they're ashamed, they feel silly.

I don't even like repeating these words, but they, you know, they

feel stupid and all this stuff.

And it's like, ugh.

You know, I feel literally physical discomfort when people say that.

'cause it's not true.

You just haven't been taught what you need to know to go and thrive financially.

Um, so I think they're the two main things for me that make talking

about money really uncomfortable.

Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, really kind of identify with this, this thing that the

stories are so kind of baked in and, uh, you know, so I, I was obviously kind

of conscious of some of my own sort of stories from, uh, from growing up, but

then as you were sort of talking, I was then also thinking about my children.

And so even being conscious of my own stories, really curious

what stories they're picking up.

Do you know what I mean?

Mm, yeah.

And it's of course 'cause you know, we, there's, in a way, there's no

point sort of sweating about these things because the story, they all get

the story that they get essentially.

Um, and it, but it's kind of really, it is a really kind of curious thing.

What is going on?

What is that sort of source material for you?

Because, It will kind of pop up and manifest and cloud and lens

and shape and all of those things.

So much of these conversations, so much of the ideas that we have, uh, about whether

we can do it, whether we don't, whether we need it, whether we don't need it,

you know, whether we pull it, whether we push it, all of these things, it's such

an emotionally charged, um, thing for something which is creator of nothing.

What I hooked onto there, which Connects to the conversation I was

hearing from this author, Morgan Housel, because you talked about

tribe and this sense of belonging.

Mm-hmm.

And this, the out the signals we put out there, or the outward

appearances we create in order to create that sense of belonging.

And so, you know, I, there's a few people down my road who have like four

by fours, Range Rovers, Land Rovers, um, and so the on one hand it's like,

oh wow, you know, they can afford that.

But I dunno if they can.

Hmm.

Maybe what they have is like a massive debt in order to pay off that car.

Hmm.

Uh, and maybe they're renting the house and they don't even own that.

And I'm comparing my inward knowledge to their outward appearance.

Because, and I, and I say, oh, if I wanna be in this place,

I need to look like that.

So there's a question here.

It's interesting here for me about authenticity.

How can we through money turn up authentically?

So just because I don't have.

A brand name on my clothes or a particular type of car, or live in a particular

neighborhood, I, do I not belong?

Or even like, how do I remove, and this is the interesting thing

I feel about my, our community.

You know, even at summer camps, like we have people from all walks

of life, but they just feel like they're the same kind of people.

And then I go to places like in, you know, back home in London and there's

a bit part the areas that are very well to do and they're areas that aren't so

well to do, and you feel like an intruder sometimes if you go to certain areas.

And so there's, there's real sense of like, I need money

in order to fit in aspect.

I think that's where I'm getting to and how, how that starts to mix into

our conversations around money because it's so tied to our status in society.

Mm.

Is that fair?

I.

Yeah, it's interesting 'cause I, my brain just went somewhere in collecting

these thoughts, there's so many here.

Okay, so yeah, what stuck out to me there is the assumption that we're making.

Yes.

I think that's a really key point because we see people buying all these amazing

things and I'm sure you guys work with people and really dig into their finances

and see, you know, where they are really.

And a lot of us, or a lot of people are portraying a certain thing, but

actually underneath that, they're struggling to maintain that and, and fine.

Fair enough.

And then the assumptions we're making off the back of looking at those people.

And I think it's really interesting that you say we need money to fit

in, because I think that's off the basis of fitting into a society

or a community that is doing that.

So signal into their, you know, their peers that, look, I've

got this, we match on this.

Whereas actually, there are people who are a bit deeper and value the connection, the

relationship in the community for other things, not just how much, you know, how

rich or how expensive your jumper is.

But I think that requires a vulnerability and you being open about that fact

and also, you know, self-confidence in you and your value as just a

human being without the, the surface stuff, without the, you know, six,

seven, whatever, figure business, just you being valuable alone, which

I think is a, for many a harder task.

When I talk to people about this topic, for those who are quite new

to it, I think the simple task of questioning what you believe can

be really quite open eye-opening.

I think even the phrase just, you know, just knowing that just because you believe

it doesn't mean it's true, I think can be quite profound for a lot of people.

And if you are at the right, you know, right at the beginning of

your journey, that I think is a, is a great starting point and doing

that as a regular, ongoing thing.

'cause we constantly make decisions and do things based off of our beliefs

and it's good to challenge that.

Yeah, I guess, uh, a couple of quick things.

One, uh, I really enjoy everything you, what you are kind of reminding about

this, this thing around the, the point around, you know, kind of purchasing,

owning things as a signal, our constant kind of quest to signal, which might

be about accumulation, might be about money, might be the things that we have.

But that actually the, the bigger question is, you know, which communities

do want to be part of actually, and are these communities that require those

messages, the communities actually, I want to, where I want to spend time?

Or by contrast, like you're talking about, Carlos, we, we started by

talking about summer camp and as you just sort of said there, actually

everything about summer camp is the, you know, the antithesis of that in the

sense of the signals that people are sending are not those kind of signals.

So there is, there is a kind of connecting with people on a

completely different level there.

And so the, the importance of that, and I really like your, your question there

and Krystle, you know, you know, what, what is it that you kind of believe?

And, you know, as, as a kind of journey to just being who you are.

Because, you know, and coming back to that place or growing back into

that place, of course is the place of security, is the place of safety.

So all of those ideas, money is freedom, money is security actually is

just in lieu of that because actually freedom, security, creativity, all

of those things is, is actually here.

It's not there.

And so the journey is getting back here in a sense.

the thought that's sticking out is like when you were, Krystle, you're

talking about, um, something about the assumptions we make about people

because of their outward appearance.

And so on one hand because they have a lovely car and a house

and nice clothes, we might assume that they have a lot of money.

And I'd say the flip of that as well, just because someone looks like they're not

rich or doesn't have enough money to spend with you, don't assume that they don't.

Yes.

Have a conversation.

Talk, 'cause like suddenly if you just say, oh, they, you, they,

you make these, you know, un, you know, biased assumptions.

And so I c I can't charge a certain amount of money for them 'cause I don't, they

look like they don't, they won't afford it to, if we're gonna remove assumptions

about how rich someone is, you've gotta remove assumptions about how poor someone

is and you've gotta learn how to have a conversation with 'em that feels like a

mature conversation around money, which I, I would be, I'd like to dig into that.

What does that mean?

To have a me mature conversation around money, uh, particularly

with potential clients.

Mm.

And what does that mean in terms of getting to people just saying numbers

of some description if possible.

Thank you very much, both of you.

Thank you everyone who is listening.

Thank you Cecile, for, uh, recommending a book by Richard Schwartz.

It looks like no bad parts.

Until next time.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Take care.

Have a good rest of the day.

Thank you.

Bye bye.

Bye.