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Brian: So, Troy and I have been, you
know, having escapades, together in Miami.

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Alex: Are you been plotting against me?

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Is that why we have like
seven, seven guests today?

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We're just, is this like,
auditions for my replacement?

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Brian: don't be paranoid.

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Don't be paranoid.

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that's why

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Troy keeps going on Dylan's

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podcast.

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He's gonna replace me with Dylan Byers.

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Troy: Alex is getting replaced

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first,

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for sure.

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Alex: see

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Brian: Is that, your Should
we get into the episode?

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Troy: Let's get going.

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Alex: why I'm

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here.

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Brian: I think everyone knows who
everyone else is, but we are gonna
be joined by two guests today.

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anonymous Banker, who's another breakout.

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I think he's a breakout star.

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The recurring character
of Anonymous Banker.

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I think it's a good one.

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Alex: we're still dialing in
the voice modification because
it grates on some people.

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So I just, you know, this is still,
it's, it's still, it's still working pro.

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Yeah.

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I mean, after a while, We've some
feedback, so it's still work in progress.

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Everyone.

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We're trying to dial it in,

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Brian: Fine.

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I like it.

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and then, Anna Angelic, is a tastemaker
in my household, is gonna be joining us.

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little special family episode.

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We'll see how that goes.

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I hope it goes

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Alex: do you wanna remind
the people who we are?

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Of

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Brian: oh, well, I, I don't like this.

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But anyway, I, I'm Brian Morrissey and I'm
joined by Troy Young and Alex Schleifer.

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I don't like the intros.

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I, I, I've

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heard other podcasts that,

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Troy: And we do get guests.

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We do, we do make the
effort to get guests.

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Occasionally, but only if,
you know, they're solicited
over dinner or something.

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Like they're, they're, or they're in our
households, or they just agree to do it

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because they like us.

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You know, like,

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Brian: No, I like the, I like,
I like having the drop by.

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That's, that's the, that's
the approach we're taking.

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They're

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Troy: I, I mean, it was
a little shocking, right.

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Anna Ana's gonna drop by and we
asked her last night and she was
enthusiastic about it over dinner.

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I'm just surprised that we're
doing an episode on taste.

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I was surprised that you never thought
of having her on earlier because she, she
spends a lot of time thinking about that.

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Brian: She does.

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That's her profession, you know,
but we, we keep her professional
pursuits mostly separate.

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Anna's gonna be joining us in 15
minutes and, and Alex has a hard stop.

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Alex: as a way of taste before
you start, because you keep being
reluctant about sharing our names
at the beginning of each episode.

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Do you think that's tasteless?

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Brian: no, I don't think so.

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It's, it, it's familiarity because
I think what I got feedback and the
feedback that I commonly get the most
positive feedback that I think is, is

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good is someone wrote in this week and
said, oh, it's like, you know, listen
to three smart people like at the bar.

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And like, I think that's sort
of what, I think that's what
a lot of podcasts do well.

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but I don't know, I haven't gotten
any complaints on that, that front.

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Alex: I mean, we, we probably
saw like three smart people
at a bar after a few drinks.

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But I, I, I think it's nice
for a new audience to that
comes in to understand the

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Brian: Okay, fine.

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Alex: You know who

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Troy: I mean, when you, when
you, when you don't prepare, you
gotta lean into the banter, Alex,

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Alex: Yeah, you do.

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You do.

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Brian: Okay, well we can weave that
in because Alex, I wanna start,
'cause we're gonna do a taste episode.

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We did one on like productivity, and we're
gonna try another sort of theme episode.

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It's gonna be a theme newsletter
if you don't already get the People
versus Algorithms newsletter.

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it's a real banger.

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get it at peopleversusalgorithms.com
comes out every Friday.

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It's a a, a companion, a weekend
companion to this podcast.

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But I wanna

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start with

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Troy: even as like a co
a cover image, like as a

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Brian: Yeah, as a cover

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Troy: to, to the old days.

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This

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Brian: because Troy is a tastemaker
and we will get to, to that.

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'cause I think it's an important
part of his, his identity.

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But I wanna start with you, Alex,
because to me, when we're gonna like,
unpack taste, I think of like taste
as like inextricably entwined with
design and you're, you're a designer.

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At heart, even if you're
doing video games now, right?

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Alex: well, I'm a video game

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designer now, so

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Brian: what you,

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Alex: I'm still a designer.

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I just designed video

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Brian: It's still okay.

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You're still a

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Alex: Oh, it's a very malleable word.

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You just like slap it onto anything.

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You know, lifestyle,
designer, anything you want.

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You can be a designer.

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Yeah.

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Brian: All right.

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What is the role, first of all,
what is the role of Taste in Design?

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And, can you just unpack your point
of view on what taste actually

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is?

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Because I think a lot of
times it, it's like content.

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It's applied to all kinds of things,
and usually it's just used by
people for whatever they want to use

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it for.

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Alex: This question makes me anxious.

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I.

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think it's because, this, you
know, I was doing interface

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design and brand design and
information design kind of things

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that people use and, and apps or
see an advertising, and there was
always this conversation around.

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is taste valuable?

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And of course it

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is.

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Of course it is.

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But

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oftentimes you're talking
to people that don't truly

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understand taste, so you're trying
to talk yourself around it and
trying to, speak about these things
a little bit more academically
because they're paying you for it.

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And and it's it's, it's especially.

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when you're starting out it's kind
of hard to say like well, I think
this is good because I have good
taste and I made that decision right.

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so the taste conversations has kind
of, followed me throughout my career.

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and I think it's really

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hard to, for people to talk about
taste because in itself that

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is tasteless to say that, well, the
reason my work is good is that I
have better taste than most people.

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and in this case, I think in the

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case of Work like design, whether
it is for marketing or apps, it is

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kind of an understanding of what
will appeal tastefully to as large
a group of people as possible.

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And, and that you do it with enough
kind of awareness of what people may
like, but push the boundaries just

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enough so that?

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it's interesting and that you actually
become hopefully, a taste maker, right?

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Like what you wanna do is, is build
something that people find beautiful
and then others start emulating.

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That conversation is often really hard

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to have within an organization.

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And So.

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I think a lot of people in the

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field, talk around it.

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maybe it's different in, in
fashion and in music or, or
creative media, but definitely
in the world I used to come from.

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we we try to avoid the taste
conversation oddly enough.

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Dunno if that answers your question.

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Brian: I think it does in part.

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Troy, do you want to pick up here?

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I think of you as a taste maker.

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you have taste across a
lot of different areas.

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You've got a point of view to me like
taste is like you need a point of view and
I think you're getting at that Alex, and
then a lot of people shy away from, from
taste because it requires a point of view.

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I mean, we've talked about this on this
podcast, you can endlessly multivariate
tests like various things that's
not having, having taste exactly.

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But what is it to you, Troy,
and why is it important?

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Troy: Well,

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thank you.

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Thank you for, for the compliment.

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I appreciate it.

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it's important to me, I, don't,

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know, maybe it makes

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me feel comfortable.

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Maybe it makes me feel like the people
around me or the spaces that I occupy
that I like, are the right place to be.

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And there there's something
kind of nurturing and comforting
and reassuring about it.

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It was like, I am fussy when it, like,
when it comes to like, like I'll tolerate
a shitty room or a tasteless restaurant,

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if the food and the value and
the craft and the execution
kind of, you know, offset it.

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Hotels for me, like
bad taste in hotels is.

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Usually kind of sucks.

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and

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and

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that's why, you know, I
like to kind of find places.

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It doesn't mean they have to be
expensive, although hotels with
taste, you know, generally are.

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but like last night when I met you,

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Brian, I. we went into
that wonderful new hotel.

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I don't know how new it is.

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I guess a couple years, a
year, year or two old now in

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Miami, which I think is

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Brian: for longer.

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Troy: probably one of the nicest

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hotels I've been to in a

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long, it's the four season surf side.

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and it, it's, it's like an
incredible place, right?

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Like, it feels like it has history,
it feels, even though, you know it's
manufactured, it has like everything.

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Like, it just, feels kind of authentic.

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It feels like, you, you're
transported into an another place.

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Like it's kind of dreamy that way.

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I don't know.

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It, it, to me, it, it, it shows like
good taste has a sense of where it is.

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Like it's, it feels like a
kind of old fashioned Miami
that you wanna hang out in.

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Brian: Yeah, it's like got
a fifties, sixties vibe.

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They've got a Havana style

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Troy: yeah.

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Brian: Thomas Keller's the the

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chef

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Troy: it's like, you know, the, the flower
arrangements at that hotel were, were
beautiful and kind of, you know, simple.

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And the, the whole thing, it smelled good.

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The staff was incredible.

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Like, it's just a, it's

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just a great hotel.

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It.

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Alex: I, it's interesting what you're
saying because it actually, it, it, it
reminds me that taste, because the taste
conversation sometimes gets bogged down
by personal tastes, which is one thing.

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But a lot of what you're
talking about here is I. Is like
decisions and execution, right?

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Like, like execution that matches
the decisions that were made to
a point where the whole package
comes together really well.

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Like it's likely that you wouldn't
design your home or even your hotel
like that Four Seasons hotel is,
but there was a vision and it was
well executed and it feels coherent.

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And so even when you're in it, there's
lots of spaces that I visit or things that
I see where I said, I, it's not my thing.

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But that vision is so clear
and is so well executed that
it becomes tasteful in its own

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Troy: Yeah, I mean,

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Alex: and we forget about the execution.

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Execution is such a
big part of taste, like

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Troy: huge, huge, and the
foundation of TA taste has gotta
be some kind of empathy, right?

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Like you gotta.

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You gotta be able to feel what's
right for people in the moment.

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You've gotta make choices.

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It has to be underpinned by,

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you know, craft.

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Hopefully that craft feels authentic,

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but you know, it's just
like a sense of proportion.

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You know, good taste always has sort
of, I guess like a kind of cultural
literacy kind of knowing the right
references or the history, or you get
why like a vintage thing is cool or not.

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You know, usually it whispers in Miami,
it often yells, you know, it, it, it
avoids it, you know, being over the top.

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But you know, it, this conversation
started because I was thinking about
how you differentiate a business, right?

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And there's all the ways that you can
differentiate a product, which might
be price or might be quality, or might

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be service, or might be selection,
or might be, you know, those little
levers that you pull to try to.

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Create a mode or compete as a business.

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And taste is a really big one of 'em.

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And, and the, one of the reasons
this came up is Brian said, well come
and meet me at The Standard, which
is a hotel that's not on the kind
of main Beach, Miami Beach strip.

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00:11:07,059 --> 00:11:08,819
It's like on the, the Biscayne

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00:11:08,969 --> 00:11:10,169
Brian: The, The, Biscay Bay.

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00:11:10,169 --> 00:11:10,409
Yeah.

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Troy: Yeah.

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And so literally, you know, like I, I
went from a hotel that had what I would
say is absolutely no vibe to like one
that was like overflowing with Vibe.

223
00:11:21,599 --> 00:11:22,889
The, the standard has it.

224
00:11:23,429 --> 00:11:28,709
And, you know, that hotel
was, it was a shitty motel on
the wrong side of the strip.

225
00:11:29,009 --> 00:11:39,359
And in 2004, I, I think is when it, when
it opened Andre Baz, who's made lots of
cool spaces, he made one on Shelter Island
at, at, called the Sunset Beach Hotel.

226
00:11:39,789 --> 00:11:47,619
but gave the place kind of a vibe
and it still has it 20 years later
and people still wanna be there.

227
00:11:47,889 --> 00:11:50,709
And so it's interesting to
me that you cannot have.

228
00:11:51,294 --> 00:11:54,654
You know, the competitive
ingredients that all of these hotels

229
00:11:54,654 --> 00:11:59,874
have on, on, on the Miami Beach
side, but you can make a place
that just is so much better

230
00:12:00,519 --> 00:12:03,489
Alex: Yeah, and I think I, I
mean this is where taste is.

231
00:12:03,999 --> 00:12:14,109
and it, it same applies in in
filmmaking or any type of media or
anything like that, where like taste,
which leads to art direction, which
leads to very cohesive vision means.

232
00:12:14,259 --> 00:12:23,719
That you can punch above your weight
usually, you know, and, and I think
it's when, and, but it requires, it
requires I think, leadership with taste.

233
00:12:23,719 --> 00:12:29,899
And I think the two people I've
worked for in my life, were you
and Brian Chesky from Airbnb.

234
00:12:29,899 --> 00:12:38,599
And I think the thing that made it
work was that you both had taste,
even though you couldn't make me
execute the way I could, it allowed

235
00:12:38,899 --> 00:12:39,379
Brian: What do you mean?

236
00:12:39,379 --> 00:12:40,834
You've seen Troy's designs?

237
00:12:40,992 --> 00:12:41,682
Alex: Yeah, I've seen

238
00:12:41,757 --> 00:12:42,172
Troy: he, I, no,

239
00:12:42,417 --> 00:12:43,107
I suck.

240
00:12:43,197 --> 00:12:43,797
I suck

241
00:12:44,277 --> 00:12:46,587
Alex: Troy's got, I mean, just
like, just not to underplay it.

242
00:12:46,587 --> 00:12:54,837
I think Troy does have like, like
is one of the people that has
the, some of the best taste and
vision for what I think looks cool.

243
00:12:54,837 --> 00:12:58,752
Even, even in his advanced age, he's
keeping up with it, which is like very,

244
00:12:59,202 --> 00:13:10,392
Troy: Well,  one of the things that I
like about Miami, you guys, is like, it
breaks the rules in lots of ways, which
is a big part of taste, I think, which is
taking something ugly and making it cool,

245
00:13:10,602 --> 00:13:10,962
right?

246
00:13:10,962 --> 00:13:19,122
Like taking something from one context
and just who posing it in one word
maybe doesn't fit, but knowing how
to do it in a way that makes you
wonder about it or reconsider it.

247
00:13:19,122 --> 00:13:21,132
Like those are people that
are really good at it.

248
00:13:21,402 --> 00:13:24,312
But like Miami is ghastly in lots of ways,

249
00:13:24,324 --> 00:13:24,612
right?

250
00:13:24,612 --> 00:13:36,642
Like, you know, like, I mean the
car, green Neon, green Lambos, and
like butt implants and just like
duck lips all over the place and the
public art in Miami is horrendous.

251
00:13:36,642 --> 00:13:37,284
Um, yeah.

252
00:13:37,404 --> 00:13:39,174
Brian: district is a shopping mall.

253
00:13:39,684 --> 00:13:40,194
Troy: Yeah.

254
00:13:40,194 --> 00:13:45,354
Like you said about the design district,
it's the only place where, you know,
someone was paid to do graffiti.

255
00:13:45,724 --> 00:13:47,815
Brian: Well, no, that's,
Wynwood in Wynwood.

256
00:13:47,845 --> 00:13:50,905
You get, they, they've got the
brand activation graffiti there.

257
00:13:51,276 --> 00:14:01,836
Troy: And Miami just breaks rules in
other weird ways too, because like, like
you can do things that are considered,
gosh, in other places, like you can vape
in the pool or some people don't care.

258
00:14:02,346 --> 00:14:03,036
I mean, which isn't

259
00:14:03,156 --> 00:14:10,958
a big deal, but like you can just, there's
lots of, stuff that's considered tasteless
in other places, you know, is just

260
00:14:10,958 --> 00:14:13,208
like the rules of the road in Miami

261
00:14:13,613 --> 00:14:16,253
Brian: It's like living in an airport,
you know, all the rules are off.

262
00:14:16,915 --> 00:14:21,295
Troy: also, like the, and, and, and by the
way, who approved this one pisses me off.

263
00:14:21,835 --> 00:14:24,445
If you're on the Beautiful Mind,
the beach is great here, right?

264
00:14:24,445 --> 00:14:25,285
Weather's terrific.

265
00:14:25,285 --> 00:14:25,675
All that.

266
00:14:26,155 --> 00:14:29,695
And like, who approved those
floating TV sets that float by?

267
00:14:30,176 --> 00:14:30,416
Like,

268
00:14:30,416 --> 00:14:30,716
what,

269
00:14:30,926 --> 00:14:32,471
Brian: you're against Troy.

270
00:14:32,531 --> 00:14:33,846
You are against an ad network.

271
00:14:35,222 --> 00:14:38,432
Troy: You're on the beach, you
know, you're, you're having a,
you know, it's a beautiful place.

272
00:14:38,432 --> 00:14:49,562
You're chilling out and like these
gigantic barges with huge screens on
them float by advertising some like
electronic, you know, music festival.

273
00:14:50,117 --> 00:14:51,857
Brian: You see, you see the horizon.

274
00:14:51,857 --> 00:14:52,547
I, I see.

275
00:14:52,547 --> 00:14:53,717
Available inventory.

276
00:14:53,882 --> 00:14:56,132
Alex: Yeah, I mean, they're putting
banner ads on the scene now.

277
00:14:56,132 --> 00:14:57,542
That's like, I mean, burn it down.

278
00:14:57,542 --> 00:14:58,232
Start over.

279
00:14:58,232 --> 00:14:58,802
I'm sorry.

280
00:14:58,802 --> 00:14:59,072
This is,

281
00:14:59,702 --> 00:15:00,302
Troy: Thank you.

282
00:15:01,337 --> 00:15:06,183
Brian: that's, that's ballyhoo by the
way, ballyhoo, if you're listening,
we're open for sponsorships.

283
00:15:06,407 --> 00:15:06,947
Um,

284
00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:10,280
I think they're, they're
the floating ad network.

285
00:15:10,850 --> 00:15:13,460
They used to be, they used to be in
New York until they shut them down.

286
00:15:13,730 --> 00:15:14,540
I, I saw them

287
00:15:14,555 --> 00:15:17,075
Alex: Well, New York,
like famously tasteful.

288
00:15:17,075 --> 00:15:17,975
Tasteful city.

289
00:15:18,650 --> 00:15:20,090
City full of taste in New York.

290
00:15:20,330 --> 00:15:21,560
Brian: I think New York is tasteful.

291
00:15:21,780 --> 00:15:22,380
Alex: I, I agree.

292
00:15:22,380 --> 00:15:23,310
I'm not being sarcastic.

293
00:15:23,550 --> 00:15:24,143
Brian: okay, good.

294
00:15:24,463 --> 00:15:27,583
let's talk about, because taste
in media used to be a moat.

295
00:15:27,763 --> 00:15:28,273
Right?

296
00:15:28,373 --> 00:15:30,743
and I don't think that
really exists anymore.

297
00:15:30,743 --> 00:15:33,943
This is, you know, Grayden
Carter has his new book out.

298
00:15:33,943 --> 00:15:36,283
Like when, when the Times were good.

299
00:15:36,513 --> 00:15:38,253
about like the heyday of magazines.

300
00:15:38,253 --> 00:15:39,663
This is something you talked about.

301
00:15:40,083 --> 00:15:49,411
Last week, Troy, and, I think
that era was defined by taste
being wielded by gatekeepers.

302
00:15:49,411 --> 00:15:49,771
Right.

303
00:15:49,771 --> 00:15:51,931
And that, that's leaked out.

304
00:15:52,051 --> 00:15:52,291
Right.

305
00:15:52,291 --> 00:15:55,111
I don't think you can really say that.

306
00:15:55,291 --> 00:16:01,981
Maybe Vogue will be an exception to
a degree, but you know, I don't know
if GQ is like setting, setting taste.

307
00:16:02,011 --> 00:16:03,841
I mean, 'cause taste is aspirational.

308
00:16:03,841 --> 00:16:04,231
Right.

309
00:16:04,651 --> 00:16:11,701
And I don't know if media if
most of like, legacy media
doesn't play that role anymore.

310
00:16:12,047 --> 00:16:12,767
Troy: Is that a question?

311
00:16:13,279 --> 00:16:13,579
Brian: Yeah.

312
00:16:13,579 --> 00:16:14,064
That's a question.

313
00:16:14,419 --> 00:16:15,229
You can react to it.

314
00:16:15,990 --> 00:16:26,880
Troy: well, I I, I think they, you know,
you wish you did because being someone
who influences how people consume is,
has economic and cultural power and you

315
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:37,230
know, that, that power has, has kind of,
seeped out of, you know, traditional kinda
lifestyle media and other types of media
and so, but it, it's gone somewhere else.

316
00:16:37,431 --> 00:16:37,521
Ana: we

317
00:16:37,546 --> 00:16:37,816
Troy: who's here.

318
00:16:37,921 --> 00:16:38,227
Brian: here.

319
00:16:38,227 --> 00:16:39,127
Troy: How are you doing, Ana?

320
00:16:39,127 --> 00:16:40,187
Nice to have you here.

321
00:16:40,992 --> 00:16:42,312
Ana: Thanks for having me.

322
00:16:42,312 --> 00:16:42,612
How are

323
00:16:42,612 --> 00:16:43,237
you guys?

324
00:16:43,361 --> 00:16:44,171
Troy: we're good.

325
00:16:44,201 --> 00:16:44,711
It was great

326
00:16:44,711 --> 00:16:44,901
seeing

327
00:16:45,011 --> 00:16:46,001
Ana: to meet you, Alex.

328
00:16:46,001 --> 00:16:46,811
I don't think we ever

329
00:16:47,071 --> 00:16:47,931
Alex: No, we never met.

330
00:16:48,271 --> 00:16:48,491
Hi.

331
00:16:48,511 --> 00:16:49,091
You exist.

332
00:16:49,406 --> 00:16:50,816
Brian: this this is a drop

333
00:16:51,191 --> 00:16:52,571
Ana: I do exist.

334
00:16:52,691 --> 00:16:53,021
Yeah.

335
00:16:53,051 --> 00:16:54,161
Very much so.

336
00:16:54,221 --> 00:16:55,121
Very much so.

337
00:16:55,126 --> 00:16:55,376
Okay.

338
00:16:55,801 --> 00:17:02,385
Brian: we're talking about taste and
we were just talking about the role,
how it's sort of leaked out from,
from media being like taste makers.

339
00:17:02,385 --> 00:17:11,775
And to me, like taste making is,
it's a form of gatekeeping, I think
to some degree because he used
to have to work to have taste,
like if I put in the newsletter.

340
00:17:11,775 --> 00:17:14,475
But like Brian Breaker has
great taste in music, I think.

341
00:17:14,565 --> 00:17:16,905
And you know, he worked at it.

342
00:17:17,115 --> 00:17:21,705
He, he is gone to all the record
stores for like decades and
developed, he's been DJing.

343
00:17:21,705 --> 00:17:23,055
He is a Brooklyn DJ dad.

344
00:17:23,115 --> 00:17:24,165
That's, that's an archetype.

345
00:17:24,585 --> 00:17:29,415
And, and nowadays you sort
of give it over to Spotify.

346
00:17:29,475 --> 00:17:32,175
You don't have to like
work to develop ca taste.

347
00:17:32,355 --> 00:17:38,015
And I'm kind of struck by how the, the,
the tech CEOs, I. sort of outsource taste.

348
00:17:38,045 --> 00:17:39,905
Like they, they don't
naturally have taste.

349
00:17:39,905 --> 00:17:41,135
It's pretty obvious, right?

350
00:17:41,465 --> 00:17:50,045
But then you look at the
transformation of like, Bezos, of
Jensen, Wang of, of Zuckerberg,
you know, they just got stylists.

351
00:17:50,295 --> 00:17:53,595
and then all of a sudden they're just
like renting taste, which is to me totally

352
00:17:54,015 --> 00:18:01,395
Troy: Well, that would, that would,
that would assume that the way it
ended up, it, you know, reflected
some type of good taste, which
it doesn't seem to have at all.

353
00:18:02,006 --> 00:18:03,746
Brian: no, it's like
The appearance of taste.

354
00:18:04,216 --> 00:18:06,600
Alex: Jensen's Huang's, all black leather.

355
00:18:07,050 --> 00:18:08,070
Jacket suit dodge

356
00:18:08,145 --> 00:18:08,955
Troy: it's just like a,

357
00:18:09,435 --> 00:18:12,735
I mean, it it's definitely a
shtick, but it's not tasteful.

358
00:18:12,975 --> 00:18:13,215
It's

359
00:18:13,230 --> 00:18:13,715
Alex: don't think so.

360
00:18:13,755 --> 00:18:19,755
Ana: Well also guys, you should know
that stylists in Hollywood, like
in life didn't exist 20 years ago.

361
00:18:20,265 --> 00:18:21,495
That's like a new

362
00:18:21,895 --> 00:18:22,515
Alex: is it a new

363
00:18:23,765 --> 00:18:24,125
Brian: yeah.

364
00:18:24,185 --> 00:18:30,185
Well, you got offended when Troy
suggested getting you a stylist
to jumpstart Anna, the brand.

365
00:18:31,550 --> 00:18:32,810
Ana: A bring it on.

366
00:18:33,020 --> 00:18:34,970
Like I'll take anything like,

367
00:18:35,465 --> 00:18:37,235
Troy: I mean, I was
saying that if we could

368
00:18:37,245 --> 00:18:38,930
Ana: where, where does the budget start?

369
00:18:38,930 --> 00:18:40,730
A hundred thousand 500.

370
00:18:40,730 --> 00:18:42,200
Like, let's go Troy.

371
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:42,620
Come on.

372
00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:43,760
I'll open the

373
00:18:43,835 --> 00:18:45,425
Brian: Well, you naturally have taste.

374
00:18:45,485 --> 00:18:46,475
I think you have taste.

375
00:18:46,475 --> 00:18:49,565
I, you know, I'm biased in
this, but I think you have good

376
00:18:49,745 --> 00:18:57,155
Alex: I wish people watch this on
video because you can really see
the, the, the taste distribution
from, from, from screen to screen.

377
00:18:57,725 --> 00:18:58,685
Brian's background

378
00:18:58,850 --> 00:18:59,960
Ana: why like, thank you,

379
00:19:00,043 --> 00:19:01,423
Alex, because I don't even need to

380
00:19:01,430 --> 00:19:02,420
re respond.

381
00:19:02,420 --> 00:19:04,700
You know, some things you
just don't need to respond to.

382
00:19:05,555 --> 00:19:08,045
Troy: Well, what, what is,
what does it mean to you, Ana?

383
00:19:08,105 --> 00:19:10,175
You're, you're, you're
smart about this stuff.

384
00:19:10,385 --> 00:19:11,165
What, what is taste?

385
00:19:11,663 --> 00:19:23,183
Ana: So sociologically, there've been
a ton of studies because obviously it's
one of the ways that people organize
themselves and judge themselves and
rank themselves and signal their status.

386
00:19:23,633 --> 00:19:36,893
So the blend was used it to kind of
say, Hey, upper classes have specific
tastes, but when lower classes adopt
those tastes, upper classes, move
on and start doing something else.

387
00:19:37,403 --> 00:19:41,513
So that's like Soho House,
that's like maybe even Ani now.

388
00:19:41,513 --> 00:19:50,633
That's, you know, like when you
start doing certain things, when like
SoulCycle used to be cool, like I
know it sounds improbable, but, so

389
00:19:50,633 --> 00:19:56,873
that's kind of those behaviors that
you always need to kind of keep going
and that's the class distinction.

390
00:19:57,188 --> 00:20:02,648
Troy: Now I see why you got pissed
off last night when I asked you if you
knew what a Evelyn Good was, because

391
00:20:02,648 --> 00:20:03,938
this is foundational.

392
00:20:04,208 --> 00:20:06,393
Well, not pissed off, I mean,
but you were like, of course.

393
00:20:07,469 --> 00:20:09,329
Because I wanted you to be a ent Good.

394
00:20:09,329 --> 00:20:09,689
Right?

395
00:20:09,779 --> 00:20:10,199
So that

396
00:20:10,199 --> 00:20:13,019
you would increase your,
your subscription prices.

397
00:20:13,274 --> 00:20:14,894
Brian: Yeah, it's about monetization.

398
00:20:14,894 --> 00:20:15,134
Troy's

399
00:20:15,209 --> 00:20:20,399
Ana: but then you become a gaff and
good, you know, when your price is
just, people are buying you just

400
00:20:20,399 --> 00:20:25,739
because you have a really high price,
which is like, basically Jay Z's
champagne and like the crazy stuff.

401
00:20:26,029 --> 00:20:26,319
Troy: Yeah.

402
00:20:26,692 --> 00:20:33,327
Ana: So anyway, so like without going,
so that's like, let's talk about that
because that's important for what Brian
and what you guys talked about before.

403
00:20:33,327 --> 00:20:41,303
And then for, er he was also
talking about how taste is
actually you are born into that.

404
00:20:41,543 --> 00:20:47,573
It's something that's given and
that is actually the opposite
of what I believe in and what.

405
00:20:48,083 --> 00:21:00,263
Other schools sociology believe in because
as if tomorrow I decide to become a coffee
connoisseur and develop that taste, there
are so many places to go there read,
there are magazines, there are like blogs.

406
00:21:00,263 --> 00:21:01,493
There are like newsletters.

407
00:21:01,493 --> 00:21:09,757
There are videos I can be, if I wanna
become a bourbon connoisseur, if I wanna
develop like Japanese animal style, I can.

408
00:21:10,057 --> 00:21:12,062
So that is the whole point that in the.

409
00:21:12,182 --> 00:21:17,492
With the internet, with distaste
communities, anyone can develop taste.

410
00:21:17,522 --> 00:21:24,662
It's not something that's fixed and
given, which was, that's why I brought
up those two sociologists that in,
in the 20th century, it was something

411
00:21:24,662 --> 00:21:30,752
like, you are just born into that and
you're stuck with it, and that's how you
like, oh, that's not quite our class.

412
00:21:30,752 --> 00:21:33,512
Based on how, and Europe is
still very much the case.

413
00:21:33,512 --> 00:21:37,682
If you go to London and hang out, or when
you go to St. Moritz or so on, you know.

414
00:21:37,682 --> 00:21:38,342
Exactly.

415
00:21:38,942 --> 00:21:42,152
How do, how do knives
are, you know, arranged.

416
00:21:42,152 --> 00:21:49,382
You don't know how the forks are
arranged and you know how people
behave and based on those behaviors,
they know what class you are in.

417
00:21:49,652 --> 00:21:52,712
But like in general, all
of that can be learned.

418
00:21:53,222 --> 00:21:58,451
Brian: Yeah, but that's the
democratization part that I think is
like, interesting because, you know,

419
00:21:58,451 --> 00:22:04,511
taste, democratizing taste to me
is, is, I mean, isn't that like sort
of against the point of it, like.

420
00:22:05,306 --> 00:22:07,766
Alex: I mean, isn't that what you
were kind of mentioning, Anna?

421
00:22:07,946 --> 00:22:18,536
As soon as like taste a tastes start
scaling, they, you know, the class
of like, that defines themselves as
taste maker tries to move to something

422
00:22:18,536 --> 00:22:26,998
else, which is, well, like taste rarely
survives scale, once you, once you
start doing something mass market,
it's really difficult to keep, to

423
00:22:27,133 --> 00:22:27,261
Ana: But

424
00:22:27,283 --> 00:22:32,563
you have mass taste, you know, like Zara
is a mass taste, fashion is a mass taste.

425
00:22:33,073 --> 00:22:39,943
And that is, you know, but the thing
is, which I think is very interesting,
that's what you, your examples of,

426
00:22:40,303 --> 00:22:46,483
of like Elon Musk having here now,
you know, like that's kind of,
everyone can pay for taste basically.

427
00:22:47,695 --> 00:22:49,715
but real, like when you say hey,

428
00:22:49,914 --> 00:22:52,745
Troy: I, I sort of think that
bald is kind of beautiful.

429
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:53,290
Alex: Yeah.

430
00:22:53,470 --> 00:22:55,630
Ana: Troy, definitely niche taste.

431
00:22:55,900 --> 00:22:57,130
Alex: For, for the audio listener,

432
00:22:57,130 --> 00:22:58,350
Troy just lifted his head.

433
00:22:58,472 --> 00:23:07,682
Ana: so I do think that when you, when
you have like fashion Substack, now you
have all those different new gatekeepers
and they have their own niche audiences.

434
00:23:07,682 --> 00:23:09,692
They're like maybe a
hundred thousand or so on.

435
00:23:10,142 --> 00:23:11,522
And then you still have Vogue.

436
00:23:11,582 --> 00:23:14,282
Vogue is mass taste for someone.

437
00:23:14,627 --> 00:23:16,577
Zach Posen is fashion for someone

438
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:17,300
Alex: right.

439
00:23:17,615 --> 00:23:19,955
Ana: because he was a
project runaway and so on.

440
00:23:20,375 --> 00:23:25,775
But actually, what, how do you
wanna define what are those taste
makers and groups are doing?

441
00:23:25,775 --> 00:23:27,605
Are they advancing the discipline?

442
00:23:27,635 --> 00:23:29,165
Are they advancing a market?

443
00:23:29,465 --> 00:23:31,415
What are, what is the,
what is the purpose?

444
00:23:31,415 --> 00:23:33,335
Spotify is taste for someone,

445
00:23:33,845 --> 00:23:34,205
But not

446
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,896
Alex: all of this, all of this,
all of this taste though, comes.

447
00:23:38,631 --> 00:23:39,681
Even Zara, right?

448
00:23:39,681 --> 00:23:46,030
there's a, pipeline that comes
in from smaller groups, which are
often kind of defining tastes.

449
00:23:46,249 --> 00:23:50,029
you know, they can be artists,
musicians, or, or some subculture.

450
00:23:50,239 --> 00:23:53,689
And then that taste makes it into
the, the, the mass culture, right?

451
00:23:53,869 --> 00:23:54,979
And at some point.

452
00:23:55,417 --> 00:23:59,287
It feels that that gets tapped out
and new sources get picked out.

453
00:23:59,287 --> 00:24:00,817
I mean, Spotify is the same thing, right?

454
00:24:00,817 --> 00:24:07,513
A lot of the Spotify spotlight playlist,
it was about like discovering cool
new artists that were, you know.

455
00:24:08,268 --> 00:24:13,339
Doci was like, you know, looking for work
a year ago and now she's a massive star.

456
00:24:13,579 --> 00:24:24,409
isn't Zara also kind of like mining the
taste of these subcultures popping up,
isn't it, looking at like the whitest
society and saying, okay, this is
cool now we'll just mass produce it.

457
00:24:24,919 --> 00:24:26,599
Ana: Correct, but that's distribution,

458
00:24:27,109 --> 00:24:27,529
Alex: Right.

459
00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:31,099
So they're not, are they making taste
or just, are they just scaling taste?

460
00:24:32,254 --> 00:24:32,637
Ana: test.

461
00:24:32,905 --> 00:24:33,325
Alex: Right,

462
00:24:33,569 --> 00:24:39,149
Brian: I'm interested in your, your point
of view on the sort of European conception
of taste versus the American 'cause.

463
00:24:39,149 --> 00:24:41,519
I think of America i's, pause it.

464
00:24:41,549 --> 00:24:49,019
I, I think we're a crass full
group people, you know, we're
commercializers, we're scalers,
we like ad networks on the ocean.

465
00:24:49,259 --> 00:24:50,819
Like, you know, this is just who we are.

466
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:51,449
Right.

467
00:24:51,449 --> 00:24:53,459
I don't think this is
not happening in Italy.

468
00:24:53,669 --> 00:24:53,939
Ana: Well, you

469
00:24:53,939 --> 00:24:55,799
can also look at the positive side.

470
00:24:55,799 --> 00:24:57,839
Your pioneers, explorers,

471
00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:58,259
Brian: Yeah.

472
00:24:58,259 --> 00:24:59,039
No, that's a positive.

473
00:24:59,039 --> 00:25:10,109
I look everything is trade-offs, you know,
like I, I'm not looking to Italy to create
like, you know, the next frontier models
in ai, but I think I trust them more
on having like great tastes generally.

474
00:25:10,184 --> 00:25:14,264
Alex: Yeah, but that taste is also
really, is really set in legacy, right?

475
00:25:14,264 --> 00:25:18,674
Like, I don't think Italy, and, and a
lot of it is, is kind of based on legacy.

476
00:25:18,674 --> 00:25:28,124
A lot of it is based on, on old
fashioned ways and very rigid ways of
doing things, which is great, which
remains tasteful and there's some
maintaining that is, is important.

477
00:25:28,124 --> 00:25:33,614
But like, you know, rock and roll and
Bob Dylan and stuff like that, those
influences often came from the US where

478
00:25:33,659 --> 00:25:34,986
Brian: Yeah, no,

479
00:25:35,069 --> 00:25:36,629
that, that, I, again, it's trade offs.

480
00:25:36,629 --> 00:25:42,419
I'm just saying when you're looking
for, like, you know, Troy, if you're
gonna have like a, a go to a hotel

481
00:25:42,419 --> 00:25:47,729
with great taste, okay, are you more
likely to have that in Miami or are
you more likely to have that in Milam?

482
00:25:47,939 --> 00:25:48,959
Like it's not close.

483
00:25:49,056 --> 00:25:51,216
Troy: Oh, it, it, it
actually definitely Miami.

484
00:25:51,606 --> 00:25:53,443
I think that, the,

485
00:25:53,563 --> 00:25:54,583
Ana: deserve that, Brian.

486
00:25:54,583 --> 00:25:55,363
You deserve that.

487
00:25:55,483 --> 00:26:04,148
Troy: no, I mean that it's, it's, I, I've,
I've been to really terrible hotels in
Milan and I think that actually there's

488
00:26:04,208 --> 00:26:11,678
a real kind of taste perversion in Italy
where it's like, either it, it, it,
it actually, maybe we shouldn't draw.

489
00:26:11,738 --> 00:26:15,668
I mean, 'cause there's some things that
Miami and, and, and Milan share, right?

490
00:26:15,668 --> 00:26:16,238
Like there's,

491
00:26:16,538 --> 00:26:22,958
I think there's a, well there's
tackiness to both of it on this, on
the, on the kind of bad side, right?

492
00:26:22,958 --> 00:26:23,228
Like

493
00:26:23,288 --> 00:26:24,038
Alex: Peacocks peacocking.

494
00:26:25,396 --> 00:26:27,406
Troy: I mean, there's
wonderful hotels in Miami.

495
00:26:27,406 --> 00:26:28,636
We were at one last night.

496
00:26:28,816 --> 00:26:33,166
That hotel we were at last night is better
than any single hotel in Milan, for sure.

497
00:26:33,406 --> 00:26:34,786
Brian: Well, you said
you want to, you want to

498
00:26:34,871 --> 00:26:36,496
Troy: I, I would like to die.

499
00:26:36,496 --> 00:26:37,936
The areas I wouldn't mind.

500
00:26:38,776 --> 00:26:43,156
I'm not saying a violent death, like, but
like if you were gonna overdose anywhere,

501
00:26:43,156 --> 00:26:43,366
that

502
00:26:43,411 --> 00:26:47,669
Alex: we doing, are we doing like
a, this is Troy's white Lotus exit.

503
00:26:47,699 --> 00:26:48,179
Is

504
00:26:48,254 --> 00:26:48,644
Troy: Right.

505
00:26:48,644 --> 00:26:55,124
But, but, but like, so, because there's
so many more dimensions to taste that I
think that, that Americans are good at.

506
00:26:55,124 --> 00:26:56,709
There's just the sort of
fundamental layer of taste.

507
00:26:57,044 --> 00:27:04,794
But there's also, you know, the,
the kind of American obsession with,
like sophisticated execution, right.

508
00:27:04,794 --> 00:27:10,254
And service that make the kind of
American tasteful experience so wonderful.

509
00:27:10,674 --> 00:27:11,574
I, I, I don't know.

510
00:27:11,574 --> 00:27:15,744
I, I think that every society, I mean,
even Canadians have taste, right?

511
00:27:15,744 --> 00:27:17,454
It's just, it's just different.

512
00:27:18,084 --> 00:27:21,559
Brian: W Ana, what is your, your,
you're, you're, you're a cultural critic

513
00:27:21,814 --> 00:27:34,154
Ana: I do think there was a so-called
Battle of Versailles in the seventies
when American designers went to
Paris and that was, Bill bla, back
then you won't like know them.

514
00:27:34,154 --> 00:27:37,304
They were like before Calvin,
Klein, Donna, Karen even.

515
00:27:37,604 --> 00:27:43,814
So you would have those, that, that
sort of define the, the, the seventies.

516
00:27:44,204 --> 00:27:51,459
Jeffrey Bean I think was there and
basically it, they, they staged that in
Versailles and it was to raise money.

517
00:27:51,789 --> 00:27:56,109
And basically they came in and it was,
it was unbelievably stodgy affair.

518
00:27:56,109 --> 00:27:59,499
Fashion shows back there, there
was like classical music and so on.

519
00:27:59,499 --> 00:28:08,289
And Americans came and they were like,
those Pet Cleveland, there were African
Americans models, they were dancing,
there was jazz, and they just killed it.

520
00:28:08,349 --> 00:28:11,379
And not just with the looks,
but the, the entire format.

521
00:28:11,649 --> 00:28:13,209
And they really upset that.

522
00:28:13,209 --> 00:28:14,919
That luxury fashion.

523
00:28:15,092 --> 00:28:22,082
Setting and, but then he also, like
when you look at Apple and design
of computers, that is another thing.

524
00:28:22,592 --> 00:28:27,722
And so kind of like I do believe in that
innovation in taste that comes from here.

525
00:28:27,722 --> 00:28:36,782
I don't agree with Troy in terms of
service because when you go to a lot
of American luxury hotels, there's,
it's so overroad, it's not natural.

526
00:28:37,022 --> 00:28:38,672
When you go to Japan, for example, it's.

527
00:28:39,727 --> 00:28:40,447
One step ahead.

528
00:28:40,447 --> 00:28:42,187
It feels very flowing and natural.

529
00:28:42,427 --> 00:28:47,300
And here someone tells you 55 times good,
like good morning and knocks on your door

530
00:28:47,497 --> 00:28:52,177
and enters and you know, like breaking and
entering and do you need like chocolate?

531
00:28:52,177 --> 00:28:54,877
And you know, like it's, it's
kinda over, you know, like,

532
00:28:55,087 --> 00:28:55,527
Alex: I agree.

533
00:28:55,707 --> 00:28:55,982
As a, as

534
00:28:55,987 --> 00:28:57,157
Ana: it is like I'm naked.

535
00:28:57,157 --> 00:28:58,147
Go away, you

536
00:28:58,262 --> 00:28:59,132
Troy: you you're

537
00:28:59,237 --> 00:29:00,257
Brian: no subtlety.

538
00:29:00,287 --> 00:29:00,527
There's

539
00:29:00,572 --> 00:29:01,082
Troy: Right.

540
00:29:01,082 --> 00:29:01,142
Yeah.

541
00:29:01,768 --> 00:29:05,728
Brian: we used to do this event
at my last job in, at a, a resort.

542
00:29:05,728 --> 00:29:09,808
We went to a lot of resorts, so
I spent a lot of time in resorts
just for a professional reason.

543
00:29:10,438 --> 00:29:12,808
And it was in Deer Valley.

544
00:29:13,228 --> 00:29:18,658
And the staff, when you would walk
by them in the hallway, they would
like pin themselves to the wall.

545
00:29:19,078 --> 00:29:20,698
Like it was like a wide corridor.

546
00:29:20,698 --> 00:29:22,948
And I was just like, this is a
little bit much, I don't need that.

547
00:29:23,283 --> 00:29:23,643
Alex: Yeah, I think

548
00:29:23,823 --> 00:29:28,607
Ana: think that, in Milan you
have, like, when you go to
Como, those hotels are amazing.

549
00:29:29,157 --> 00:29:34,557
Now Mandarin Oriental and then even like
the attention to detail is much higher.

550
00:29:34,557 --> 00:29:37,527
Armani hotel like vo.

551
00:29:37,527 --> 00:29:42,387
You mentioned last night that you're
very interested in the escort scene
at Kaza Chip Onion Friday night.

552
00:29:42,687 --> 00:29:43,887
So when that's the like,

553
00:29:44,072 --> 00:29:44,407
Brian: Wait, who,

554
00:29:45,237 --> 00:29:45,747
Ana: just,

555
00:29:45,872 --> 00:29:46,502
Brian: who mentioned that?

556
00:29:46,562 --> 00:29:47,552
Was that me Or Troy?

557
00:29:47,612 --> 00:29:48,536
Or is that Alex?

558
00:29:48,717 --> 00:29:49,707
Ana: Troy, sorry.

559
00:29:49,707 --> 00:29:49,947
I was

560
00:29:50,042 --> 00:29:52,201
Alex: I was, I was, I
was not involved in this.

561
00:29:52,201 --> 00:29:53,401
I would like, for the record,

562
00:29:53,924 --> 00:29:56,504
Troy: yeah, I might have
mentioned that as an observer.

563
00:29:56,534 --> 00:29:59,504
I noticed at the Four Seasons
Uptown, the new Four Seasons

564
00:29:59,744 --> 00:30:01,214
Brian: Yeah, no, it was not as a consumer.

565
00:30:01,214 --> 00:30:01,814
I don't remember

566
00:30:01,844 --> 00:30:02,234
Troy: Yeah.

567
00:30:02,405 --> 00:30:10,581
And, and, and also, yeah, the, The
fashion examples may be, you know,
I mean, different countries have
primacy in different industries,

568
00:30:10,581 --> 00:30:16,521
and, you know, American fashion isn't
really, you know, obviously nearly
as well developed, if that's the

569
00:30:16,521 --> 00:30:17,631
lens you're using.

570
00:30:17,631 --> 00:30:20,151
Ana: Don't forget Ralph, respect to

571
00:30:20,421 --> 00:30:20,738
Troy: well,

572
00:30:20,991 --> 00:30:21,861
well hold on.

573
00:30:22,371 --> 00:30:27,291
Alex: but at the same time, Troy,
like European tourists are some of
the worst dressed people in the world.

574
00:30:27,411 --> 00:30:28,131
I can say that.

575
00:30:28,131 --> 00:30:29,845
As a European, I mean, see

576
00:30:30,085 --> 00:30:30,205
Ana: only.

577
00:30:30,205 --> 00:30:31,705
Hero trash.

578
00:30:31,765 --> 00:30:34,225
No, you haven't been in Milan or Paris.

579
00:30:34,225 --> 00:30:35,395
Why do you have Parisian

580
00:30:35,395 --> 00:30:35,965
style?

581
00:30:35,965 --> 00:30:36,895
Parisian chic,

582
00:30:36,895 --> 00:30:37,255
the entire genre.

583
00:30:37,255 --> 00:30:40,747
Alex: If you're, If I know, but
those, those are like, yeah.

584
00:30:40,747 --> 00:30:40,987
If you

585
00:30:41,002 --> 00:30:42,472
Ana: You are speaking with your people.

586
00:30:42,472 --> 00:30:42,892
I dunno who

587
00:30:42,892 --> 00:30:43,837
Brian: well  no.

588
00:30:43,837 --> 00:30:44,137
Look,

589
00:30:44,137 --> 00:30:45,487
there's a lot of Europeans

590
00:30:45,577 --> 00:30:45,908
Alex: I'm, I'm,

591
00:30:46,449 --> 00:30:47,019
Brian: Those like.

592
00:30:47,739 --> 00:30:50,799
Polo shirts with the
giant numbers on them and

593
00:30:51,159 --> 00:30:51,999
Alex: Yeah, exactly.

594
00:30:51,999 --> 00:30:52,449
Yeah.

595
00:30:52,704 --> 00:30:53,364
Ana: But that's Euro

596
00:30:53,364 --> 00:30:54,144
trash.

597
00:30:54,204 --> 00:30:55,704
You have that everywhere.

598
00:30:55,704 --> 00:30:56,874
Don't you know?

599
00:30:57,024 --> 00:31:01,886
Alex: No, I, I, under, I am judging
because I think if you look at there,
there's definitely the population

600
00:31:01,886 --> 00:31:07,886
of, you walk into any city, you walk
into New York and you think, you
know, America is full of great taste.

601
00:31:07,886 --> 00:31:15,356
I think every country has, something
that another country will find offensive,
including kind of like the broad
European fashion when they travel.

602
00:31:15,565 --> 00:31:16,525
I think, you know.

603
00:31:16,852 --> 00:31:18,262
Ana: Yeah, but what's the point?

604
00:31:18,562 --> 00:31:19,282
What's your point?

605
00:31:19,612 --> 00:31:25,852
Alex: My point is that like, I don't
think it's, I don't think we can
casually like talk about one country
having more taste than another.

606
00:31:25,852 --> 00:31:29,872
I think there are exports
of taste that each of these
countries can do really well.

607
00:31:30,092 --> 00:31:31,892
France, Italy, even America.

608
00:31:32,222 --> 00:31:33,032
But I think like

609
00:31:33,062 --> 00:31:33,962
culture itself,

610
00:31:33,992 --> 00:31:35,162
Ana: I don't know,

611
00:31:35,252 --> 00:31:36,032
Alex: of a mishmash.

612
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:36,720
Ana: Right.

613
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,405
But I think that certain countries made
the brand out of themselves thanks to it.

614
00:31:41,955 --> 00:31:44,205
Like that's, France makes money out of it.

615
00:31:44,592 --> 00:31:49,662
Of their luxury industry,
of their province, of their
vines, of their perfumes, of

616
00:31:49,662 --> 00:31:51,941
their luxury brands, of

617
00:31:51,941 --> 00:31:53,021
their museums.

618
00:31:53,021 --> 00:31:56,591
Like that's their, their
brands based on their taste.

619
00:31:56,591 --> 00:32:00,791
Italy the same, that they
haven't created anything new in
like, whatever, a hundred years

620
00:32:01,211 --> 00:32:04,121
Alex: But it's a, it's an
industry rather than like a broad

621
00:32:04,131 --> 00:32:04,351
Brian: new.

622
00:32:04,691 --> 00:32:04,991
Troy: Right.

623
00:32:05,111 --> 00:32:05,951
Alex: behave, you know?

624
00:32:06,006 --> 00:32:08,411
Ana: this was the latest global

625
00:32:08,561 --> 00:32:12,258
Troy: I, I want her, I want you on every
week, Ana, we're gonna build up brand.

626
00:32:12,258 --> 00:32:12,648
I'll get you

627
00:32:12,648 --> 00:32:13,458
a stylist.

628
00:32:13,578 --> 00:32:19,848
What, listen, but I'm wondering, Ana,
'cause this, this podcast occasionally
likes to veer into service territory.

629
00:32:20,348 --> 00:32:26,258
you know, what helpful tips
would we offer the audience
around how to be more tasteful?

630
00:32:26,498 --> 00:32:31,131
How to think about taste, with more,
I don't know, sophistication maybe?

631
00:32:31,131 --> 00:32:33,801
Or like, what advice would
you give me about taste?

632
00:32:33,801 --> 00:32:35,241
I, I'm, I'm looking for it.

633
00:32:35,637 --> 00:32:37,137
Ana: In terms of service,

634
00:32:37,362 --> 00:32:39,102
Troy: Well, no, I, I meant
when I said service, I

635
00:32:39,102 --> 00:32:41,322
mean service in the context
of service journalism.

636
00:32:41,352 --> 00:32:42,672
Like we want to help people be,

637
00:32:42,822 --> 00:32:45,402
live a more ta live a more tasteful life,

638
00:32:46,047 --> 00:32:47,877
Brian: Is this something
you can do intentionally?

639
00:32:47,877 --> 00:32:49,527
Like can you learn to have taste?

640
00:32:49,527 --> 00:32:49,557
I.

641
00:32:50,217 --> 00:32:56,847
Ana: That's what I wanted to say, but
like I'm really like, I wanna really
pay respect to American designers
who are at bachelor Versa side.

642
00:32:56,877 --> 00:33:06,477
And I know that your audience
doesn't care, but if that goes, I'm
segueing into the next answer is
like, what are you really interested
in and passionate about, Troy?

643
00:33:07,557 --> 00:33:10,047
What would you like to learn more of?

644
00:33:10,197 --> 00:33:13,017
Because everything, you
wanna develop a taste.

645
00:33:13,662 --> 00:33:17,052
I have a taste for is an expression.

646
00:33:17,382 --> 00:33:21,522
It's basically think of
taste as an active thing.

647
00:33:21,837 --> 00:33:21,957
Troy: you

648
00:33:22,227 --> 00:33:26,457
Ana: Something that can be learned,
not something that's given,
and you have it or you don't

649
00:33:26,457 --> 00:33:29,787
Troy: So do you think I could be
more stylish if, if I, if I put my

650
00:33:29,937 --> 00:33:32,877
Ana: Thousand percent
you can hire a stylist.

651
00:33:33,117 --> 00:33:34,347
Look at Jeff Bezos.

652
00:33:34,347 --> 00:33:35,667
I mean, look at that.

653
00:33:35,967 --> 00:33:39,057
He's like, cover of Vanity
Fair Shot by Ann Leitz.

654
00:33:39,057 --> 00:33:40,047
Have you seen him

655
00:33:40,197 --> 00:33:41,067
before?

656
00:33:41,407 --> 00:33:41,647
Alex: I don't.

657
00:33:41,647 --> 00:33:42,307
Are we, are we saying

658
00:33:42,492 --> 00:33:43,204
Ana: No, but like, that's

659
00:33:43,272 --> 00:33:43,812
what I'm saying.

660
00:33:43,812 --> 00:33:47,982
You can hire a stylist, but you can also
learn about style, read fashion, substack

661
00:33:48,354 --> 00:33:48,864
Brian: Lauren

662
00:33:48,934 --> 00:33:52,698
Alex: in tech, everybody in everybody in
Silicon Valley right now is a stylist.

663
00:33:52,698 --> 00:33:53,268
I can tell you,

664
00:33:53,513 --> 00:33:54,773
Ana: ab Absolutely.

665
00:33:54,773 --> 00:33:55,973
They all go to Brunel.

666
00:33:55,973 --> 00:34:03,833
Cuccinelli is like, Nona is making
them like meatballs and solo mayo,
you know, like, like they're,
they're all into like that.

667
00:34:03,833 --> 00:34:04,913
So that's kind of.

668
00:34:05,273 --> 00:34:16,248
It's not that that's a shortcut to
taste, but if you are really interested
in that, Troy, you go fashion subject
you, you click on affiliate links
and then you slowly go whatever your

669
00:34:16,568 --> 00:34:20,978
Troy: Yeah, I'm kind of more
interested in, I'm waking up
in the to this morning, right.

670
00:34:20,978 --> 00:34:24,158
And I'm my little low on clothing
'cause it's the end of a trip.

671
00:34:24,548 --> 00:34:35,348
But, you know, I make decisions in my
closet or to add things to my closet
and I'm just wondering if you would
maybe have anything for me to think
about when I'm making those decisions?

672
00:34:35,795 --> 00:34:38,405
Ana: If you have nothing
to wear in your hotel room,

673
00:34:38,862 --> 00:34:39,162
Troy: Yeah,

674
00:34:39,222 --> 00:34:40,577
Ana: that's pretty much the end,

675
00:34:41,677 --> 00:34:44,982
the end of your, I can't
like deliver anything

676
00:34:45,004 --> 00:34:46,302
for like, I don't know the.

677
00:34:46,757 --> 00:34:47,147
Troy: You see,

678
00:34:47,147 --> 00:34:49,577
because men of my, I mean,
I'll just finish this up.

679
00:34:49,577 --> 00:34:50,537
Men of of of

680
00:34:50,537 --> 00:34:55,847
my vi vintage typically just kind
of veer towards uniform dressing

681
00:34:56,341 --> 00:34:56,761
and.

682
00:34:57,016 --> 00:35:03,526
And try to just stick to the same
stable of brands and, and, and
looks, and then vary them slightly.

683
00:35:03,526 --> 00:35:14,291
Like, you know, I have, you know, classic
Lacoste, you know, polo tops in 37 colors
just because it's comforting to me and
I don't have to make a lot of decisions.

684
00:35:14,708 --> 00:35:14,998
Alex: Yeah.

685
00:35:15,193 --> 00:35:16,363
Troy: you, is that okay?

686
00:35:16,862 --> 00:35:18,482
Ana: I am not sure that I
understand your question.

687
00:35:18,482 --> 00:35:28,382
We went from you having a lot of dirty
laundry to having, you know, like, so at
the end of your trip, so like a lot of
men, like honestly, I'll just go back.

688
00:35:28,442 --> 00:35:32,102
A lot of men behave like you, banana
Republic build an entire like.

689
00:35:32,412 --> 00:35:36,072
American companies build an
entire business on the fact that
men don't wanna make decisions.

690
00:35:36,072 --> 00:35:43,452
They buy one pair of chinos when they're
22 and they buy, like the next time
they buy, like they're buried in at 92.

691
00:35:43,542 --> 00:35:44,082
You know what I mean?

692
00:35:44,172 --> 00:35:48,552
They buy the same over and over
and over again, and America little
business is created like that.

693
00:35:48,792 --> 00:35:49,782
So, you know what I mean?

694
00:35:49,782 --> 00:35:53,592
That's, that's kind of your, an
archetype of that sort of behavior.

695
00:35:53,862 --> 00:35:58,092
So if you wanna sort of evolve
your taste, then I have the same.

696
00:35:58,602 --> 00:36:01,812
Recommendation is before
having 37 lowcost is amazing.

697
00:36:01,812 --> 00:36:07,282
That really takes decision
making out of your, your day,
and which is more important.

698
00:36:07,282 --> 00:36:10,582
It creates a brand for you,
repeatability and uniform.

699
00:36:10,582 --> 00:36:13,192
It's like, oh, I know how
Troy's gonna look like it's

700
00:36:13,192 --> 00:36:15,322
Steve Jobs, black turtleneck, and so on.

701
00:36:15,322 --> 00:36:17,032
So you project a specific image.

702
00:36:17,332 --> 00:36:18,532
So what do you want?

703
00:36:18,532 --> 00:36:20,002
You wanna have a different image.

704
00:36:20,458 --> 00:36:22,888
Troy: I think I'll stick to
this one for now, just 'cause

705
00:36:23,113 --> 00:36:23,503
Ana: Cool.

706
00:36:23,503 --> 00:36:24,673
So what's your question then?

707
00:36:25,179 --> 00:36:27,598
Troy: well, I was being, I,
we, we, it was a hypothetical

708
00:36:27,744 --> 00:36:28,554
Ana: Hypothetical.

709
00:36:28,554 --> 00:36:29,364
So let's let,

710
00:36:29,364 --> 00:36:30,534
okay, so let's, do you

711
00:36:30,714 --> 00:36:31,704
Brian: the, what's your question?

712
00:36:31,704 --> 00:36:32,064
Treatment,

713
00:36:32,079 --> 00:36:33,766
Alex: I don't, I don't
mean so I have a hard

714
00:36:33,901 --> 00:36:34,591
Ana: No,  but I

715
00:36:34,591 --> 00:36:35,761
wanna be helpful here.

716
00:36:35,761 --> 00:36:37,561
I wanna be useful to your audience.

717
00:36:37,561 --> 00:36:39,211
So kind of my thing is, oh, there

718
00:36:39,211 --> 00:36:40,411
is Anonymous banker.

719
00:36:40,411 --> 00:36:40,981
It's time for

720
00:36:40,981 --> 00:36:42,151
me to go.

721
00:36:43,336 --> 00:36:43,366
Alex: I.

722
00:36:44,491 --> 00:36:47,866
Brian: YY Ana, thank you.

723
00:36:47,896 --> 00:36:49,516
Thank you for taking the

724
00:36:49,891 --> 00:36:50,761
Ana: Maybe I can give.

725
00:36:50,761 --> 00:36:53,281
Hey Troy, can I give a
tip to anonymous banker?

726
00:36:53,441 --> 00:36:54,106
Troy: A hundred percent.

727
00:36:54,106 --> 00:36:54,556
You know what

728
00:36:54,706 --> 00:36:54,886
Brian: what

729
00:36:54,886 --> 00:36:55,306
what do you think

730
00:36:55,456 --> 00:36:57,094
Troy: like, he,

731
00:36:57,289 --> 00:36:58,238
Alex: Are we gender gendering?

732
00:36:58,238 --> 00:37:01,875
Troy: he has 30 of those
blue, Oxford, button

733
00:37:01,875 --> 00:37:02,265
downs.

734
00:37:02,790 --> 00:37:05,775
Ana: That's not the brand, Troy,
that's something different.

735
00:37:06,885 --> 00:37:16,365
No, but I do wanna like just wrap up
and leave you on a, like if you really
wanted to explore, like you can say, Hey
Anna, tell me which podcast to listen to.

736
00:37:16,365 --> 00:37:18,135
Tell me, which like newsletters to.

737
00:37:18,135 --> 00:37:27,000
To read, tell me which stores to go
to, and you start from there because
like I tell, read a continuous link,
for example, like read za, go to

738
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,890
those Instagram accounts, see what you
like, you like more of that algorithm
is gonna take care of the rest.

739
00:37:32,460 --> 00:37:33,570
You are gonna look like him.

740
00:37:33,630 --> 00:37:33,840
No

741
00:37:33,855 --> 00:37:34,335
Brian: Give us.

742
00:37:35,254 --> 00:37:37,610
Give us five tips for the PVA weekend.

743
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:38,270
Thank you, Anna.

744
00:37:38,370 --> 00:37:38,850
Ana: Thank you.

745
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:40,020
Bye.

746
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:40,380
Thank

747
00:37:40,399 --> 00:37:40,620
you.

748
00:37:40,625 --> 00:37:40,805
Bye.

749
00:37:40,905 --> 00:37:41,925
Troy: Please come back.

750
00:37:42,375 --> 00:37:43,065
Shit.

751
00:37:44,085 --> 00:37:44,535
Brian: All right.

752
00:37:44,535 --> 00:37:45,285
Ab,

753
00:37:45,450 --> 00:37:46,195
Troy: That's a lot.

754
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:47,040
That's a lot.

755
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:48,420
that's your daily day

756
00:37:48,495 --> 00:37:50,145
Brian: That's, yeah, that's a Tuesday.

757
00:37:50,473 --> 00:37:51,493
you know, uh,

758
00:37:51,733 --> 00:37:57,253
Anna's very accomplished and she's
very high energy and she's a lot
of opinions and she takes his shit,

759
00:37:57,253 --> 00:37:58,273
So it's good.

760
00:37:58,378 --> 00:37:59,510
Alex: stop in six minutes.

761
00:37:59,578 --> 00:37:59,668
I

762
00:37:59,743 --> 00:38:00,853
Brian: got a hard stop.

763
00:38:00,958 --> 00:38:02,908
Alex: I just wanted to say
hi to anonymous Banker.

764
00:38:02,908 --> 00:38:03,598
We keep missing

765
00:38:03,787 --> 00:38:04,927
AB: Hey, Alex.

766
00:38:04,987 --> 00:38:05,347
Yeah.

767
00:38:05,467 --> 00:38:05,892
How's it going?

768
00:38:06,538 --> 00:38:08,788
Alex: I'm, now I'm nice sworn to secrecy.

769
00:38:08,863 --> 00:38:10,583
I, I've seen your face, so

770
00:38:11,117 --> 00:38:16,488
Troy: Well, if they found out, if
they found out at at Goldman that he
was doing this, they would be pissed.

771
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:18,244
AB: Exactly.

772
00:38:19,030 --> 00:38:21,130
Brian: so, ab, is there a taste premium?

773
00:38:21,130 --> 00:38:23,920
Like, can this get, can
this get the multiple up?

774
00:38:24,430 --> 00:38:25,690
How's taste valued?

775
00:38:25,690 --> 00:38:27,100
Is that just an intangible?

776
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:27,730
Where does that go?

777
00:38:27,730 --> 00:38:28,480
On the balance sheet.

778
00:38:28,969 --> 00:38:33,259
AB: So I think there's sort
of two layers to, to taste,
especially in the media space.

779
00:38:33,259 --> 00:38:36,679
So taste around personalities
and then taste around companies.

780
00:38:37,085 --> 00:38:39,155
personalities you see people.

781
00:38:39,755 --> 00:38:47,865
Like even a Joe Rogan, who you might
say doesn't have taste, but he has this
cultural zeitgeist, and that allows
him to get these massive Spotify deals.

782
00:38:47,865 --> 00:38:59,655
Howard Stern did his deal with SiriusXM
and at the company level, I think
where you see it pushing up valuation
is where larger media companies are
trying to say either they feel like

783
00:38:59,655 --> 00:39:06,555
they're getting behind and so they need
to capture new tastes or they need to
basically align themselves with the
next generation of content creators.

784
00:39:07,050 --> 00:39:09,420
so yeah, I think it totally
plays into valuation.

785
00:39:09,953 --> 00:39:11,088
Brian: Okay, but how much.

786
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,130
AB: Um, I don't know,

787
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:14,640
it's hard to

788
00:39:14,718 --> 00:39:15,030
say.

789
00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:16,075
I mean, the, the

790
00:39:16,115 --> 00:39:18,815
Brian: five x EBITDA to
like a eight x ebitda?

791
00:39:18,815 --> 00:39:19,775
Like what are you gonna get?

792
00:39:20,165 --> 00:39:21,335
Alex: I think it absolutely can.

793
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:29,909
AB: yeah, I mean, the, the best way to
drive a price is running a competitive
process or have people believe that
there's scarcity of a business.

794
00:39:29,909 --> 00:39:32,579
So depending on the size of the deal.

795
00:39:33,134 --> 00:39:34,784
And your counterparty.

796
00:39:35,144 --> 00:39:42,574
I've been in situations where, I
had an offer that I tripled, and
not based on any sort of revenue,
multiple or EBITDA multiple.

797
00:39:42,574 --> 00:39:46,804
It, it, it, it ultimately tied out
in this case to a revenue multiple.

798
00:39:47,164 --> 00:39:48,424
but I think it can be, it can.

799
00:39:48,424 --> 00:39:50,404
actually drive significant value.

800
00:39:50,404 --> 00:39:50,704
I don't know.

801
00:39:50,704 --> 00:39:51,514
There's not a specific

802
00:39:51,514 --> 00:39:52,054
percentage

803
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:59,558
Alex: But I mean, it, it, it would
make, it would make sense that in an
algorithmic world where standing out
is, is so important and, and, you know,

804
00:39:59,558 --> 00:40:05,378
getting kind of beyond the noise, that
taste and taste making would be a huge
premium for any brand at this stage.

805
00:40:06,055 --> 00:40:06,565
AB: Exactly.

806
00:40:06,625 --> 00:40:06,805
Yeah.

807
00:40:06,946 --> 00:40:11,026
Alex: they built a billion dollar
company by calling it water liquid death.

808
00:40:11,116 --> 00:40:11,386
Right.

809
00:40:11,386 --> 00:40:15,616
I mean, it just, it was just like hitting
culture right at the right moment.

810
00:40:15,616 --> 00:40:17,416
And I think you can do that in anything.

811
00:40:17,416 --> 00:40:20,596
It's always been the case and it's
more the case today than ever, I think.

812
00:40:21,106 --> 00:40:22,816
AB: Yeah, there's in the YouTube space.

813
00:40:23,326 --> 00:40:25,306
One of the things that's
happened and what you saw.

814
00:40:25,306 --> 00:40:30,286
So last year there were a couple
YouTube channels and brands for
sale, and no one was really biding.

815
00:40:30,286 --> 00:40:33,346
And then they just recently
sold, one of them sold last year.

816
00:40:33,346 --> 00:40:34,662
The, The hot ones.

817
00:40:34,662 --> 00:40:34,887
Right.

818
00:40:34,887 --> 00:40:42,942
And so one of the big things with
the reason why that deal got done,
is because people believe that
you could connect Now taste with.

819
00:40:43,452 --> 00:40:44,322
Monetization.

820
00:40:44,322 --> 00:40:47,592
So another deal that just got announced
is this company called Good Good Golf.

821
00:40:47,652 --> 00:40:50,142
And that thing's been
shopped for 18 months.

822
00:40:50,502 --> 00:40:59,442
And so now what you're seeing is the
market believes and, and you know,
all these different analyst reports
that YouTube is the next TV that
they believe that they can connect.

823
00:41:00,042 --> 00:41:01,692
Taste with monetization.

824
00:41:01,692 --> 00:41:06,776
And it's really interesting when
you hear how the guys from, first
we fee sell their advertising.

825
00:41:06,776 --> 00:41:08,246
It's not based on a CPM.

826
00:41:08,336 --> 00:41:12,866
It's basically selling brands
on the adjacency to the content.

827
00:41:12,896 --> 00:41:18,776
Like that's, they, they sell out one
week to these different brands and get
them to pay premium advertising rates.

828
00:41:19,178 --> 00:41:20,798
Troy: that's not, that's
not taste, that's just

829
00:41:20,933 --> 00:41:23,227
Alex: But, but here's the thing
about the, the algorithmics thing.

830
00:41:23,227 --> 00:41:27,247
I, I was talking, you know, when
I was, I've been raising money
for, for our video game studio.

831
00:41:27,427 --> 00:41:35,697
Thankfully that's all behind us, but,
What, what happened is we talked to a
few, industry, publishers, like big,
big publishing firms that they used

832
00:41:35,697 --> 00:41:41,577
to be able to kind of find a decent
product and, and, and push that out
and, you know, build an audience.

833
00:41:41,577 --> 00:41:46,767
But I said as things have turned more
and more algorithmic and it's harder
and harder to reach audiences via,

834
00:41:46,977 --> 00:41:52,197
via just like, you know, blasting
paid media at them, what they're
investing in is that they're actually.

835
00:41:52,617 --> 00:41:59,457
Taking investment into, into
smaller studios, smaller companies
and the entirety of their,
their searches around taste.

836
00:41:59,547 --> 00:42:04,887
Trying to find people who have taste,
that are taste makers that can kind
of like build a number of things.

837
00:42:04,887 --> 00:42:13,431
Not only a product, but like, not
only a product, but like content,
media, social activity that kind
of breakthrough because of taste.

838
00:42:13,431 --> 00:42:15,651
So they're, they're taste scouts now.

839
00:42:15,831 --> 00:42:19,521
They, they went from, you know, and,
and I think that makes a lot of sense.

840
00:42:20,031 --> 00:42:20,961
AB: Here's where it applies.

841
00:42:21,021 --> 00:42:32,380
So in the first We feast, I agree with
Troy's point that it's just a, it's a
packaging example that I gave, but the
reason why taste drove value at, at,
hot Ones is that they were very like.

842
00:42:32,890 --> 00:42:36,700
Thoughtful and like how they
put the content together.

843
00:42:36,998 --> 00:42:42,578
they get the actors or whomever the
celebrities they have into the studio,
get 'em comfortable with the content.

844
00:42:42,908 --> 00:42:44,228
like that's very intentional.

845
00:42:44,228 --> 00:42:52,808
And so there's a, a taste element to
the content that's been created that
resonates with an audience and that
has like the, basically built in a very
embedded audience that continues to grow.

846
00:42:52,898 --> 00:42:58,808
And so you can leverage good taste
being intentional about content
creation to then sell because.

847
00:42:59,348 --> 00:43:03,308
The brands like CMOs want to be
aligned with good content, right?

848
00:43:03,308 --> 00:43:12,998
So I, I agree with Troy's point, but
it's a little bit different in that
there's a bunch of cooking shows
online that haven't been able to
tap through as much as the hot ones.

849
00:43:13,124 --> 00:43:13,334
Brian: Yeah.

850
00:43:13,604 --> 00:43:16,724
I, I think the big question is whether
taste gets you off the spreadsheet,

851
00:43:17,234 --> 00:43:17,594
right?

852
00:43:17,654 --> 00:43:18,104
Like in media, I.

853
00:43:18,134 --> 00:43:18,464
Troy: does.

854
00:43:18,464 --> 00:43:19,484
Of course it does.

855
00:43:19,739 --> 00:43:20,399
Brian: It used to.

856
00:43:20,399 --> 00:43:21,629
I don't know if it still does.

857
00:43:22,139 --> 00:43:22,769
Troy: maybe less so.

858
00:43:22,769 --> 00:43:28,199
No, but I, I think there's always a
contextual premium on, you know, in
places where people believe that the

859
00:43:28,199 --> 00:43:28,619
media's

860
00:43:28,664 --> 00:43:29,804
Brian: Alex has a hard stop,

861
00:43:30,689 --> 00:43:30,959
Alex: stop.

862
00:43:30,959 --> 00:43:31,949
I gotta go, guys.

863
00:43:32,189 --> 00:43:32,639
Troy: you gotta,

864
00:43:33,029 --> 00:43:33,509
Alex: Thank you.

865
00:43:33,509 --> 00:43:33,929
See?

866
00:43:34,355 --> 00:43:35,129
No, I'm gonna keep

867
00:43:35,183 --> 00:43:35,483
AB: The re

868
00:43:35,699 --> 00:43:36,149
Alex: Stop.

869
00:43:36,216 --> 00:43:36,516
I'm

870
00:43:37,161 --> 00:43:39,931
Brian: to like do it as a spinoff
It's our  Joni loves Chachi.

871
00:43:40,144 --> 00:43:46,511
AB: biggest thing I think that taste,
'cause the way that it pulls it off
the spreadsheet is basically people
are saying, we have to have this.

872
00:43:46,511 --> 00:43:49,301
If we don't have this, then it's,
we're missing out on an opportunity.

873
00:43:49,301 --> 00:43:50,771
it's not just like a capability ad.

874
00:43:50,771 --> 00:43:51,161
We're not just

875
00:43:51,196 --> 00:43:52,396
Troy: it's media.

876
00:43:52,456 --> 00:43:54,586
It's media for crying out loud.

877
00:43:54,886 --> 00:43:56,416
Of course, taste matters.

878
00:43:56,416 --> 00:43:56,866
Of course.

879
00:43:56,866 --> 00:43:57,826
Context matters.

880
00:43:57,916 --> 00:43:58,246
Of course.

881
00:43:58,246 --> 00:44:00,676
Your ability to influence culture matters.

882
00:44:00,676 --> 00:44:03,526
Of course, that translates
into CPM premiums.

883
00:44:03,676 --> 00:44:07,636
It's media like, I don't even know
why we're even discussing this.

884
00:44:07,636 --> 00:44:08,536
It's crazy.

885
00:44:09,046 --> 00:44:09,766
Oh my God.

886
00:44:09,766 --> 00:44:12,946
We'd be, we'd be better off
talking about whether AI has taste.

887
00:44:13,456 --> 00:44:14,506
Does AI have taste?

888
00:44:14,506 --> 00:44:15,046
Brian?

889
00:44:15,074 --> 00:44:20,984
Brian: to me, taste is like
a point of view and that's
when the taste really excels.

890
00:44:20,984 --> 00:44:29,744
And I, I think by its nature, ai,
flatten AI is basically an accelerant
to what we see with algorithms
and that flattens everything.

891
00:44:30,044 --> 00:44:42,374
And so I think there's a good case to
be made that AI will make taste like,
particularly in media and other areas
actually be more valuable because

892
00:44:42,629 --> 00:44:43,109
Troy: Right.

893
00:44:43,334 --> 00:44:44,384
Brian: inherently human.

894
00:44:44,969 --> 00:44:48,059
Troy: But let's break it down
into the pro and con, right?

895
00:44:48,059 --> 00:44:51,569
So can it, could you
create a tasteful AI bot?

896
00:44:51,869 --> 00:44:56,189
Can AI do the automate the things
that are part of taste making?

897
00:44:56,339 --> 00:44:59,309
Well, is taste making pattern recognition?

898
00:44:59,309 --> 00:44:59,579
Yes.

899
00:44:59,579 --> 00:45:00,359
Can AI do it?

900
00:45:00,359 --> 00:45:00,779
Yes.

901
00:45:01,169 --> 00:45:04,619
Is it understanding references
and br bringing those in?

902
00:45:04,619 --> 00:45:04,949
Yes.

903
00:45:04,949 --> 00:45:06,629
Can AI do that very well?

904
00:45:06,929 --> 00:45:09,509
Can it curate based on a rule set?

905
00:45:09,689 --> 00:45:10,319
Sure.

906
00:45:10,809 --> 00:45:14,409
could it therefore do
playlists and interiors and.

907
00:45:14,724 --> 00:45:22,434
Maybe fashion selection based on
those rules, would that be in 90% of
people's minds the equivalent of taste?

908
00:45:22,434 --> 00:45:23,214
For sure.

909
00:45:23,574 --> 00:45:25,554
Does that mean knowing your preferences?

910
00:45:25,554 --> 00:45:26,184
Probably.

911
00:45:26,214 --> 00:45:29,514
'cause they're, you know, gonna
customize to what it believes about you.

912
00:45:29,514 --> 00:45:36,594
And you might find that tasteful on
the other side, the, the more exquisite
part of taste, which is emotional

913
00:45:36,594 --> 00:45:43,884
resonance and, you know, sensitivity
to culture and time and knowing
when to break rules and instinct.

914
00:45:44,094 --> 00:45:44,394
Right?

915
00:45:44,394 --> 00:45:53,424
And that sort of sixth sense that,
you know, when, you know people that
are super tasteful, they have that
sense of things and when to break
the rules and surprise and all that.

916
00:45:53,764 --> 00:45:58,954
you know, like this idea of taking
something ugly and making it cool,
like AI will never do that Well.

917
00:45:59,464 --> 00:46:09,994
So I, I think that actually for a lot
of the world, AI will, could be a taste
companion, but at the top end of the
pyramid, it, it just, it, it, it doesn't

918
00:46:09,994 --> 00:46:20,764
have sensory, the sensory capability, the
history, the memory that gives great taste
makers there, you know, you know, sort
of effervescent or, or elusive quality.

919
00:46:20,914 --> 00:46:21,934
That would be my take.

920
00:46:22,323 --> 00:46:24,993
Brian: But I mean, that's the thing, it's
like most people don't want the taste.

921
00:46:24,993 --> 00:46:26,163
It's just like, it's good enough.

922
00:46:26,163 --> 00:46:30,123
It's the, the simulation
of taste is, is is fine.

923
00:46:30,183 --> 00:46:39,443
But if you're going to, I don't know if
I, if I was going to like Tokyo, I would
trust, like, you know, Colin Nay, like,
he's, he's like a, he's like a taste guy.

924
00:46:39,443 --> 00:46:41,033
He's like a Japan guy.

925
00:46:41,063 --> 00:46:50,123
Like I, I go for his, like,
recommendations because I know he, I know
his taste and you know, it's not gonna
be the same thing that AI would give me.

926
00:46:50,123 --> 00:46:53,213
I mean, AI is, is just gonna be
the average at the end of the day.

927
00:46:53,723 --> 00:47:05,513
Troy: You know, Brian, I had this funny
conversation this morning with a guy
that owns a hotel and he said, you know,
there's this guy, he's like, some things
that are considered sort of tasteful

928
00:47:05,513 --> 00:47:15,633
and I'm not, and I'm, and I'm going to
deliberately confuse this with like,
stuffs that, that is memorable or quirky
or, you know, just like surprising.

929
00:47:16,143 --> 00:47:26,733
you know, they, he's like, when you, when
you operationalize it in a hotel, it, it,
it loses its taste kind of appeal, right?

930
00:47:26,733 --> 00:47:38,223
So he was saying that inside of their
hotel there was this quirky guy that
always walked around and took the coffee
orders, just walked around the hotel
and became a character in the hotel.

931
00:47:38,373 --> 00:47:47,103
And it probably didn't pencil out
as a. You know, you know, as a good
investment, but like, it was like part
of the, it was just part of the vibe.

932
00:47:47,103 --> 00:47:52,683
And he is like, you can't, you
can't just make that as a role
inside of all of our hotels.

933
00:47:52,893 --> 00:48:03,033
It's, and, and so it, it, it does kind of
speak to like, you know, the humanness of
it and when, you know, the challenge with
like, hotels are a great lens for this.

934
00:48:03,033 --> 00:48:10,863
Like the challenge of scaling taste
and, and why you have to really admire
companies that, that are able to do it.

935
00:48:11,373 --> 00:48:18,603
you know, like to, to kind of add surprise
and taste in ways that are not cheesy
or feel manufactured across a big chain.

936
00:48:18,603 --> 00:48:27,933
And that's why that hotel last night
was so impressive to me because, you
know, I've been in lots of shitty four
seasons, but like, this one is special and

937
00:48:27,973 --> 00:48:28,803
Brian: Well, four Seasons.

938
00:48:29,013 --> 00:48:31,803
Four Seasons is like, it's like
a licensing play, isn't it?

939
00:48:32,073 --> 00:48:33,513
Don't they just license it out to

940
00:48:33,778 --> 00:48:33,898
Troy: I.

941
00:48:34,323 --> 00:48:38,853
Yeah, but I think there's a taste
book obviously, and a playbook
that goes along with it, so,

942
00:48:39,963 --> 00:48:40,353
Brian: that's the thing.

943
00:48:40,353 --> 00:48:47,703
It's like when you try to scale, Alex
said it like, when you try to scale
these kinds of things, they inevitably
get diluted, like at the end of the day.

944
00:48:47,703 --> 00:48:57,633
And that's was my point about
Americans not really having, you
know, taste as a strong suit is we're,
we're hyperscalers, we blitz scale.

945
00:48:57,933 --> 00:49:00,873
You know, like, you know, and
if taste comes along, eh, fine.

946
00:49:01,023 --> 00:49:04,773
Like, you know, but like, at the end of
the day, it's in service of monetization.

947
00:49:05,043 --> 00:49:05,433
Am I right?

948
00:49:05,433 --> 00:49:07,503
Ab I mean, we're outta monetization

949
00:49:07,647 --> 00:49:08,367
AB: I, Yeah.

950
00:49:08,367 --> 00:49:15,147
I mean, I think if some of these media
companies, and if, as I mentioned some
of these names, some of these people
have been canceled, but I would make

951
00:49:15,147 --> 00:49:25,917
the argument that a traditional media
company that had scale, there are people
like I. Ales Moonves or a Barry Di at
at Paramount, or a Sheila Evans at HBO

952
00:49:25,917 --> 00:49:32,937
Docs, like they really drove, their taste
drove a significant increase in value
because they were picking the content.

953
00:49:32,937 --> 00:49:34,887
They knew what resonated with viewers.

954
00:49:35,127 --> 00:49:43,647
I think what's happening, there's a really
good subset post about this guy talking
about the evolution of sort of taste at
Netflix and how when you combine it with.

955
00:49:44,124 --> 00:49:46,344
The algorithm and and viewership metrics.

956
00:49:46,584 --> 00:49:58,194
It's sort of getting diluted in the sense
that all these shows have the same sort
of look and feel like they feel like
movies, but they have these like ways
of getting you hooked to keep watching.

957
00:49:58,524 --> 00:50:04,648
And so it's like a delusion or a
perversion where when everyone's
looking at the metrics, taste is sort

958
00:50:04,648 --> 00:50:09,268
of going out the window to just get
people to, cons, basically become
like hyper consumers of content.

959
00:50:09,268 --> 00:50:11,788
So I think that there was
a role to play 'cause like.

960
00:50:12,278 --> 00:50:13,508
Brian Roberts at Comcast.

961
00:50:13,538 --> 00:50:14,678
He doesn't have any taste, right?

962
00:50:14,768 --> 00:50:22,898
It's, it's a, it's a telephone or it's
a cable business with a bunch of content
there, but no one would argue that he's
green lighting shows and things like that.

963
00:50:22,898 --> 00:50:30,398
I think the media executives of
the past had a lot of say and drove
a lot of value creation through
having taste, but I think that's

964
00:50:30,398 --> 00:50:30,848
changing

965
00:50:31,209 --> 00:50:37,719
Brian: Yeah, I mean look at HBO,
like Richard Plepler era, like
HBO versus doctor, what is it?

966
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:38,919
Doc, the Pimple Popper.

967
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:39,880
that's a show.

968
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:47,685
I mean, you gotta pick a lane and
like ultimately, you know, we pick
a lane of scaling and monetization
and that's fine, but you're gonna
lose something along the way.

969
00:50:48,039 --> 00:50:48,339
AB: Yeah.

970
00:50:48,789 --> 00:50:53,379
I think where AI plays its role
in this taste world is it, it
allows you to action on it.

971
00:50:53,379 --> 00:50:53,529
So.

972
00:50:54,039 --> 00:51:01,869
In your example of of Japan, it will just
rely on some of these taste makers or say
you, you want to update your wardrobe.

973
00:51:01,899 --> 00:51:08,829
AI should be the sort of the layer
that's telling you, Hey, you follow
these five people on Instagram
and you know you wanna wear this.

974
00:51:08,829 --> 00:51:11,109
Here's what fits with you and
here's how you can buy it.

975
00:51:11,469 --> 00:51:14,349
Brian: That makes monetizing, having
great tastes really difficult.

976
00:51:14,379 --> 00:51:21,549
I mean, we gotta get, it's like
Chris Black, he's a good example
of someone who, you know, how
would you describe Ki Chris Black?

977
00:51:21,549 --> 00:51:23,289
I mean, he does all kinds of things.

978
00:51:23,289 --> 00:51:26,619
Like he, he's like a, he's
like a taste maker guy.

979
00:51:26,619 --> 00:51:26,859
He's,

980
00:51:27,054 --> 00:51:29,844
Troy: He is like a,
he's a male influencer.

981
00:51:29,994 --> 00:51:31,794
Dj, podcaster guy.

982
00:51:32,679 --> 00:51:34,329
Brian: yeah, he's at fashion shows.

983
00:51:34,329 --> 00:51:36,489
He's at all kinds of things like Right.

984
00:51:36,519 --> 00:51:39,259
But, you know how he mo he, he
would be an interesting guest.

985
00:51:39,259 --> 00:51:42,559
'cause how he monetize his taste,
I think is, is pretty interesting.

986
00:51:42,981 --> 00:51:43,461
when I can

987
00:51:43,530 --> 00:51:43,710
AB: Yeah,

988
00:51:44,215 --> 00:51:48,985
I mean, his desire is to make more content
to try to monetize like he wants to.

989
00:51:49,105 --> 00:51:51,775
What's interesting is he wants to move
kind of into the traditional media realm.

990
00:51:51,805 --> 00:51:57,115
That's like his, one of his goals is
to move back into the traditional media
realm with a show to monetize it more.

991
00:51:57,115 --> 00:52:03,295
He, I, I don't, he has a big
audience, or not an audience that's
highly engaged, around a specific.

992
00:52:03,610 --> 00:52:04,480
Group of men.

993
00:52:04,590 --> 00:52:11,220
but what's interesting is as he
thinks about building future value,
it's actually going backwards,
not forwards in terms of content.

994
00:52:11,559 --> 00:52:13,869
Brian: Why do you would like, that would
be good to have mom to talk about this.

995
00:52:13,869 --> 00:52:15,039
Why, why, why would that be?

996
00:52:15,039 --> 00:52:20,499
I mean, 'cause to me, it's like
the way the world is now in digital
media, it's like it's all algorithmic.

997
00:52:20,499 --> 00:52:25,419
It's, you know, we talk about it
on the show all the time and it
inevitably, Kyle Chaco was on here.

998
00:52:25,419 --> 00:52:26,619
It flattens everything.

999
00:52:27,009 --> 00:52:36,293
And so you might wanna just go
back to traditional media because
there you can actually opt,
optimize to your taste versus

1000
00:52:36,383 --> 00:52:36,803
here

1001
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:42,629
AB: I mean, think about there's
much better substack riders than
some of these Fox or CNN news or

1002
00:52:42,629 --> 00:52:48,389
M-S-N-B-C news hosts that some, some
of these people on M-S-N-B-C are
making five, 10, $15 million a year.

1003
00:52:48,389 --> 00:52:55,769
I. And what they're saying on a daily
basis doesn't make any, they're just
reading off a script or just kind
of going off on their own thoughts.

1004
00:52:56,009 --> 00:53:02,819
Whereas people, like, I think there's a
ceiling on how much money you can make
on Substack, and so most of those people
are figure, like audio is one of the

1005
00:53:02,819 --> 00:53:07,679
best channels to make a lot of money
because the traditional media companies
are still writing pretty large checks.

1006
00:53:07,799 --> 00:53:12,999
'cause they have the, the depth of
advertisers, be able to push premium CPMs.

1007
00:53:13,509 --> 00:53:15,459
It's just, just how the
world, it could change.

1008
00:53:15,969 --> 00:53:18,524
but for now, that's sort of
how you have to navigate.

1009
00:53:19,034 --> 00:53:19,364
Brian: All right.

1010
00:53:19,364 --> 00:53:22,124
Do you wanna do good product, Troy,
or do you find closing thoughts?

1011
00:53:22,124 --> 00:53:23,924
Do you have a, like a sermon?

1012
00:53:24,434 --> 00:53:25,489
Troy: I don't really have a sermon.

1013
00:53:25,489 --> 00:53:35,629
I mean, I think that that the, the Chris
example is just another one where someone
who's considered to have great taste.

1014
00:53:36,139 --> 00:53:44,639
Is, someone whose recommendations move
the needle in commercial settings, and
therefore their premium is justified.

1015
00:53:44,639 --> 00:53:55,359
I mean, it's just, to me it's like the
difference between franchise media,
that has incredible kind of, you know,
an elusive cultural power and stuff

1016
00:53:55,359 --> 00:54:04,119
that sits in the middle where you have
to work really hard to, to kind of,
you know, make a media business work
versus the far end, which is just,

1017
00:54:04,149 --> 00:54:10,209
you know, monetization where you're,
you, you're, you're taking commodity
impressions and turning them into money.

1018
00:54:10,209 --> 00:54:15,699
So yeah, in, in media, the
game will always be to get,
to turn taste into premiums.

1019
00:54:15,819 --> 00:54:16,329
I think,

1020
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:16,959
you know,

1021
00:54:16,959 --> 00:54:21,339
particularly, and, and, and I think that
taste exists on different strata, right?

1022
00:54:21,339 --> 00:54:24,249
Like there's taste in economics.

1023
00:54:24,534 --> 00:54:31,554
There's taste in politics, there's taste
in fashion, there's taste in travel,
there's taste in all those places.

1024
00:54:31,554 --> 00:54:45,617
It generally is the sort of thing that
differentiates someone who, you know,
is, is seen as, as, you know, as having
weight from a, you know, kind of, cultural
perspective or, or economic perspective.

1025
00:54:45,647 --> 00:54:47,627
So I'm glad we did this.

1026
00:54:47,937 --> 00:54:52,657
and it happened to, to nicely
coincide with my visit to Miami, is,

1027
00:54:52,702 --> 00:54:55,192
Brian: So is that like
let's get into good product?

1028
00:54:55,252 --> 00:54:57,220
I think he has some books for us, not

1029
00:54:57,458 --> 00:54:57,946
Troy: Well,

1030
00:55:00,102 --> 00:55:04,562
I think we should revisit, preppy
Handbook and Anonymous Banker
probably has a couple copies of it.

1031
00:55:04,562 --> 00:55:08,072
I noticed by the way, that
it's 119 bucks on eBay.

1032
00:55:08,342 --> 00:55:09,152
It's outta print.

1033
00:55:09,519 --> 00:55:12,279
Brian: Really because
we have a copy at home.

1034
00:55:12,489 --> 00:55:15,699
I hope Ana didn't pay 120 bucks for that.

1035
00:55:15,804 --> 00:55:21,458
Troy: Well, and then there's also,
um, the, the funny thing about
Miami is it doesn't feel like
the most kind of literate city.

1036
00:55:22,218 --> 00:55:32,998
my Jillian and I had to travel 10 miles
by bike to find a bookstore and there,
there, there isn't a bookstore, like
you ask the people at the hotel, you
know, is there a bookstore around?

1037
00:55:32,998 --> 00:55:35,098
And they point out like
a Tash in bookstore.

1038
00:55:35,138 --> 00:55:36,358
These are baby books.

1039
00:55:37,228 --> 00:55:39,298
These are picture books for grownups.

1040
00:55:39,328 --> 00:55:40,984
These are not books, right.

1041
00:55:40,984 --> 00:55:45,814
So anyway, I bought, I went
to the bookstore and I bought
that book Miami by Joan Didion.

1042
00:55:46,324 --> 00:55:48,724
And I got to read that
in the last couple days.

1043
00:55:48,724 --> 00:55:49,354
That was fun.

1044
00:55:49,874 --> 00:55:54,554
there's a, it's fun to try to understand
what made this city into the city.

1045
00:55:54,554 --> 00:55:55,034
It is.

1046
00:55:55,454 --> 00:56:00,134
And in particular, the, the
Cuban influence on the city
was really fascinating to me.

1047
00:56:00,524 --> 00:56:08,381
And they were, you know, and incredibly,
idealistic crowd, the, exiles in Miami
and also seemingly quite violent.

1048
00:56:10,324 --> 00:56:11,284
Brian: It's a great mixture.

1049
00:56:11,847 --> 00:56:12,147
Troy: Yeah.

1050
00:56:12,507 --> 00:56:14,241
But, yeah, no, last night was fun.

1051
00:56:14,241 --> 00:56:16,453
And, that hotel is a
good product for sure.

1052
00:56:16,797 --> 00:56:21,867
if you could bring yourself to,
spend the exorbitant amount that they
charge, I think you would enjoy it.

1053
00:56:21,982 --> 00:56:23,067
Brian: You're welcome, Troy.

1054
00:56:23,127 --> 00:56:23,787
It was on me.

1055
00:56:24,297 --> 00:56:24,477
Troy: Yeah.

1056
00:56:24,477 --> 00:56:25,347
You paid last night.

1057
00:56:25,347 --> 00:56:26,727
That's also a nice product

1058
00:56:27,147 --> 00:56:29,337
Brian: ab, if you come to
Miami, I'll buy you a fancy

1059
00:56:29,386 --> 00:56:29,577
mail.

1060
00:56:29,796 --> 00:56:30,036
AB: good,

1061
00:56:30,602 --> 00:56:30,942
Troy: All right.

1062
00:56:31,437 --> 00:56:31,902
Thanks guys.

1063
00:56:32,466 --> 00:56:40,649
That's it for this episode of
people versus algorithms where each
week we uncover patterns shaping
media culture and technology.

1064
00:56:41,054 --> 00:56:44,494
Big thanks as always to our
producer, Vanja Arsenov.

1065
00:56:45,004 --> 00:56:49,684
She always makes us a little clearer
and more understandable and we
appreciate her very, very much.

1066
00:56:50,184 --> 00:56:53,634
If you're enjoying these conversations,
we'd love for you to leave us a review.

1067
00:56:54,070 --> 00:56:56,730
It helps us get the word out
and keeps our community growing.

1068
00:56:57,205 --> 00:56:58,895
Remember, you can find People vs.

1069
00:56:58,925 --> 00:57:03,365
Algorithms on Apple Podcasts,
on Spotify, and now on YouTube.

1070
00:57:03,848 --> 00:57:06,138
Thanks for listening and
we'll see you again next week.

1071
00:57:06,698 --> 00:57:07,178
Brian: All right.

1072
00:57:07,178 --> 00:57:07,958
That's it.

1073
00:57:08,048 --> 00:57:08,828
We're gonna wrap it up.

1074
00:57:08,828 --> 00:57:09,548
Thank you.

1075
00:57:09,638 --> 00:57:13,584
This was a good special episode
and yeah, we'll keep bringing
people on for drop bys.

1076
00:57:13,584 --> 00:57:13,884
It'd be good.

1077
00:57:14,207 --> 00:57:14,507
Troy: All right.

1078
00:57:14,507 --> 00:57:14,927
Thanks.

1079
00:57:15,146 --> 00:57:15,416
AB: right.