Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. The summer of 1933 was a tense one. Economically, it was in the throes of the Great

Depression. People were struggling, but they were also organizing and agitating around labor

rights and the social safety net. Others were also organizing though, towards a fascist end.

In the first half of this episode, John Clark and I will talk a little bit about these swastika

clubs that sprung up in Toronto during this time, how they were emboldened by the rise

of Hitler and the Nazis, as well as legitimized, even encouraged by the establishment here in

Canada. These clubs, furthering white supremacist ideology, attacking Jewish community members,

were allowed to roam around the city until the community decided they had had enough. On August

16th, 1933, after a series of escalating events, a riot broke out during a heavily attended

baseball game at Christie Pitts. a park in the heart of the Jewish and Italian Catholic communities

in Toronto. The game was between Harbor Playground, a predominantly Jewish team, and St. Peter's,

who were mostly Catholics. The Nazis came, again, to taunt the Jewish players and use their swastika

to intimidate. But it obviously did not work. The response of mostly the Jewish community,

the Italian community, and in part organized labor, sent a message that resonated for quite

some time. Our second guest, Catherine Crockett, will talk about that impact and the fact that

Nazis are planning on coming back to Chrissy Pitts, in circumstances terribly familiar to

those that existed back then. A nationalist anti-immigration rally in the park is planned

for this Saturday, September 13th. But as they did before, the community is organizing against

it. We'll find out. what that response is shaping up to look like and why. It's so important

folks take a stand right now. First, let's hear from John. Good morning, John. Welcome back

to Blueprints. Can you introduce yourself to the audience, please? Yes, certainly. I'm

John Clark and I was a long time organizer with the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty, OCAP.

And I'm presently active in an organization called 230 Fight Back, which is fighting for

uh housing in Toronto's downtown East. various other things. Lots of various other things.

We'll be sure to link folks to John's work in the show notes and we've had 230 Fight Back

on. They were fun guests to have. I love talking about tenant organizing. It gives me hope

when I see folks rising up against landlords. But yeah, John, I did call you in here to

talk about, you know, what lessons we can draw perhaps from the riots that occurred in 1933

and make some comparisons to today. I mean, in a situation where Hitler and Mussolini were

in power and fascism was a major threat across the world, there were significant fascist movements

in many other countries, including here in Canada. And they became quite arrogant. They were fascists,

they were anti-Semitic. and they targeted the Jewish community in Toronto. They were organizing

swastika clubs, as they called them. And there's no question that they had a base of support,

significant base of support. But what's also true is that the establishment, not just in

Canada, but in a whole series of Western countries, were actually very sympathetic to the fascist

movements at that time. uh Later, of course, they had a big falling out over over prophets

and colonies and they went to war and they became champions of democracy against fascism. But

in fact, people like Winston Churchill and such like were great fans of Adolf Hitler. So

there was a huge amount uh of high level support. And so the fascists engaged at Christie Pitts

during a baseball game in a deliberate provocation. And there was a mobilization against them,

spearheaded by the Jewish community that that took them on. One of a series of such confrontations

that happened internationally, two years later in Britain, the famous cable street situation

occurred where Oswald Mosley and his fascists were prevented from marching, despite the fact

that the Home Office in Britain mobilized 20,000 police to try to enable a few hundred fascists

to march through London's East End. So uh a period of turmoil and a period of challenging

fascism. And today, in the context of, you know, rising far-right sentiments and organizations.

We've seen the so-called freedom convoy go to Ottawa, but there's a significant base

for the far-right. And so right there in Christie Pits, a place where fascism was contested

a lifetime ago, they're coming back. And so I think that those that are organizing to try

to stop them are performing a really vital service. Absolutely. I want to go back to that

arrogance though, because it triggered something in me watching some of those, there's some

silly documentaries online. I'll link folks to them just for shits and giggles. what

one of the things that seems obvious is the way the Toronto mayor at the time gave space

to these swastika clubs. Not only that, you know, didn't just tolerate them, legitimize

them. Even after they led to so many confrontations, right, and there was violence and tension and,

you know, as a mayor, something that you're supposed to quell, he brought them in as a

conference on equal level with members of the Jewish community to try to kind of talk them

all down. Things like that add to the arrogance, right? They feed into the legitimize that

division that's occurring in the working class. And another one of the fun facts from about

the Toronto mayor at the time and the police is that quite often police resources would

be allocated to working class struggles within the city rather than try to quell these riots,

including on the day the Christie Pitts riot where they were more worried about unemployed

folks protesting and sent much of their police resources there. And I just thought it spoke

to the idea that it was so They played right into their hands to have folks fighting in

the parks rather than organizing um together as a working class. That was more fearful.

That was something that the police force was to be used for. um Not. Because this didn't

just happen on August 16th. It was like a summer of tension. There was all these dates that

really hit head um on Orange Day Parade time. when it was clear labor was standing with

the Jewish community to a degree um and the migrants. and it was growing the tension. uh

And then it culminated then on the 16th after, you know, a scuffle on the 14th. And then

they came back on the 15th and spray painted a swastika. And it was that use of that imagery

over and over again, trying to intimidate the Jewish community that just eventually folks

had had enough. And that's what resulted in the riots that we were talking about. What

kind of lessons can we draw from that? like following the riots, they did ban the swastika,

but it's not like Jewish people were treated any better. I think something you said before

the recording, maybe you want to hit on it again, like the conditions that Jewish people in Toronto

were facing helped feed into this. There's no doubt that the context with regards to

the Jewish community was significantly different. Not that I'm seeking in any way to downplay

the issue of anti-Semitism in present period. But it is true that in the 1930s you had levels

of active discrimination against the Jewish community that were enormous. That was generally

true of people from Ireland, southern Europe and eastern Europe. It was particularly true

of the Jewish community. We're treated to outrageous levels of discrimination. were marginalized

and impoverished to a huge degree. So there was a real active, violent prejudice that

the swastika clubs were playing on at that particular time. And I think that's an important

distinction that needs to be made clear. And Hitler at this time is arresting tens of thousands

of folks in Germany, right? He's starting to arrest his political opponents, but also massive.

moves to discriminate against Jewish people there. And it seems early to folks in history,

right? 33, where we didn't know exactly what was going on to Jewish people. we, Jewish community

certainly did. Right? And they had been marching against that as well on July 11th. So right

before the Orange Day Parade. And the Orange Order kind of ruled the city at the time, right?

Like the Anglo-Saxon kind of white supremacists. was the establishment as well. But they marched

to a cenotaph and the uproar that was created around, you know, allowing Jewish people to

march on the cenotaph and, you know, the letters to the editor and then the comments that you

can kind of historically go back and look at sound like they could have come from Facebook

pages here and now, right? Where folks are so very protective over our military nationalism

and the way that folks are viewing and treating migrants. indeed. mean, we're seeing the same

rise of a far right that's playing on xenophobic and racist prejudices. the parallels are

the same. And indeed, I think as well, an important point that you raise is the legitimization

of the far right by the establishment. was occurring at that time. You talk of the mayor being very

chummy with the swastika clubs and such like. I mean, today we see sections of the Conservative

Party prepared to openly embrace the freedom convoy and people who are overtly fascist.

We're seeing, in fact, a blurring of the lines of distinction between mainstream conservatism

and the far right. I think that's occurring. I I just read an article from Australia in

the in the newspaper Red Flag. And they were talking there about demonstrations taking place

organized by racists and fascists and the degree to which the media, the mainstream corporate

media and the political establishment uh are presenting them as just people with valid concerns.

So yes, the door is being opened by the establishment. the other point, and it comes from Christie

Pitts, of course, is that Any serious attempt to stop the fascists, any working class mobilization

that challenges the fascists, will not be dealing with an impartial establishment and it certainly

won't be dealing with an impartial police force. uh We're going to be dealing with a situation

where the far right will be largely tolerated, significantly supported and assisted, and any

mobilization that we engage in is going to have to swim against the stream. I mean, it's true.

at the resources that are going into trying to crush Palestine solidarity movements at

the moment. I guarantee that this gaggle of racists that assemble in Christie Pits, if

they show up and it's hoped they don't, they're not going to be lines of cops waiting for them.

There's not going to be mounted police. There's not going to be riot cops ready to go. They're

going to put down the welcome mat for them. And that's the reality of of dealing with

the rise of the far right. We can't count on the establishment to take a disapproving position

and help us out. We have to organize independently. I asked you before we recorded, I read a comment

that the swastika clubs tended to overplay their numbers. There was one report by 40

times to give the impression that there was more of them. They acted as gangs, so obviously

that worked to their advantage to think that There was always backup around the corner,

but it also was to play on the minds of the people, right? That there was a larger majority

of people excited, of working class people, excited about Hitler than there really was.

I don't know, is that significant now? Whether or not public sentiment as a whole was against

Jewish people because they did face widespread discrimination. So in today's age, like, The

Nazis are gathering at Christie Pitts this time, not because of Jewish people or Italian people.

Even if they were migrants, they're talking about migrants of color, right? Specifically,

there's obviously a delineation that's been made and they're the targets for everything,

right? Housing, jobs, unit, healthcare, right? They're the reason your Tim Hortons is cold,

like... literally everything right now you read is just uh blaming migrants and that is

to such an advantage to the establishment. So like what is the right response then now knowing

some of the parallels but then also the stark differences? Well I mean I think in those

days I mean the swastika clubs clearly had a base they were supported in higher places

m and they had a base in the general population. There was widespread anti-Semitic prejudice

at that time and they drew upon that. Whether their active numbers were exaggerated, that's

quite possible, but they nonetheless were a significant social manifestation and I think

that has to be acknowledged. And that's true today. I mean, this gaggle that's gonna assemble

in Christie-Pitts may look quite pathetic, but the fact is... They speak to deep-seated

prejudices that exist and prejudices that are being nurtured. mean, I'm absolutely a believer

in the notion that fascism is uh a dangerous and violent force that we have to prevent from

organizing and assembling. We must deny them the public square as a matter of necessity.

But having said that, um the extremists, if you want to use that term, are actually growing

out of a soil that is impeccably mainstream. For every fascist who draws overtly racist

conclusions, there are 10,000 editorials being written in newspapers and 100,000 statements

being made by quite mainstream politicians that provide uh the nurturing for precisely those

kinds of ideas. If we're going to build a movement to stop fascism, it has to be a much more broadly

anti-racist movement that's prepared to challenge the places where these, the places that produce

this fascist edge. So although protecting the town square is important, there's such larger

platforms out there to tackle preaching this same message on so many levels. Yeah, I get

that. Yeah, again, back to that toleration and uh encouragement from the establishment.

Other parallels that just kind of scream city of Toronto right now is the fact that once

pressured to stop using the swastika and being so overt in their racism, right? Because then

sides start to be taken in the war. And so they took those shirts off and they became

like a gentrification club for the beaches This was the neighborhood where they thrived the

most obviously they were in the the pits the pit gang but um the They would patrol the

beaches right trying to keep the beaches clean and I thought like this was like the birthplace

of Toronto gentrification was literally Nazis just trying to still meet as a club and patrol

like gangs, but Under the auspices, they were doing something really good for the city. Yeah,

there's a song where, you the Nazis never really went away. We're still having to deal with

them. So I know you're not organizing for Saturday. I don't know if you're going to be there. I'm

going to go cover it. And a lot of the response has well, it's been varied. And I love that

it'll be a rainbow of collectives there responding. Some folks are organizing a family picnic,

you know, because this is a park. The reason they're choosing the pits is because it's

has largely been an immigrant park. I say that with love, right? It's always been kind

of sandwiched between two neighborhoods that has been changing over time, but almost always

uh from for new Canadians, right? People who have recently arrived and to take that target,

I think. they're targeting migrants and families. So the response is to say, yeah, absolutely

this park belongs to our community and their families. But then there's also kind of a more

militant response. I think this is a very different response than obviously what we saw in 1933.

We have plans, right? We know it's coming. This was a little more spontaneous. And so it's

gonna go down a little bit differently. But I thought there's some real beauty in that,

that maybe we've... We've gone places as a movement that we can respond in different ways. I think

that when it comes to how you confront a Nazi gathering, it's significantly a tactical question.

And the notion of actually just simply reclaiming the park in numbers is valid. But I do think

there's a place for confronting Nazis. And I don't think we can shy away from that. I

think it has to be recognized that if they are allowed to assemble, what they're building,

I mean, it goes back to the swastika clubs and the tactics they use, what they essentially

try to do is to build a street army. I mean, that's always their objective, is to mobilize

in enough numbers and to develop the confidence and the status. where they can start organizing

openly. And when they do, they become larger. And so it's essential to prevent them from

reaching that critical mass. And so it has to be approached strategically and various

tactical options are on the table. But one way or another, it's essential to ensure that they

do not achieve any organizational cohesion. Because if they do, there'll be a violent

and very dangerous and very hateful force. you say street armies, obviously my blood starts

to boil a little bit faster. But I thought immediately to the University of Toronto and

the tolerance given there for, I don't know what they called themselves, but they were

vigilante groups that were allowed by the city and the university to patrol the campus, you

know, looking kind of like military. They had, you know, vests and certain insignia's on to

kind of give that impression. And they were clearly targeting pro-Palestinian activism.

You know, that was the danger they were responding to. uh then also, I think of ICE now. watching,

we talk about Hitler, but south of us right now is, we're witnessing an unleashing of

horror, right? We can give it all kinds of names. It looks like fascism. We have state

militia of sort, ICE, kind of. They seem like street gangs, street armies. We don't really

know who makes them up. They don't seem to be following the law. And there is a kind of

base of support that's rooted in that same kind of deep-seated prejudice that exists. But

I do think you're seeing larger community groups rise up. in response and physically confronting,

you know, armed state police. You see any parallels to folks here taking a stand now on any

kind of kernels of that street vigilantism? Right. Yeah, I mean, we're going to be dealing

with that very same kind of thing. And to a degree, we already are. We're dealing with,

yes, fascist mobilizations and such like. But there's no question that the whole agenda

that we see in the ICE raids in the United States. The same mechanism is beginning to play out

here. I Carney's whole approach to border security and anti-immigrant stuff is to go in exactly

the same direction. So I don't think we can delude ourselves that immigration raids and

such like are just not something that happens because Canada's too nice. It happens south

of the border because they're an ugly crew down there. I think there's a real risk of exactly

the same kind of thing happening here. And yes, when it comes to state forces and the far

right, well, I I think of comrades in Greece who confronted Golden Dawn. Essentially, they

were dealing with a situation where Golden Dawn was the night shift and the riot cops were

the day shift. So I mean, of the same movement. And that's, that's also something that's

part of the reality of what we're up against. Have any predictions for the outcome on Saturday?

From what I can see, it's certainly resonating. I think it's going to be it's going to be

an impressive mobilization. The possibilities for the fascists losing their nerve are there.

The possibilities for a level of confrontation are always there in a situation like that.

one way or another, I think the fact that there has been a high profile mobilization and an

attempt to rally communities to confront these ugly and nasty people is a really, really important

gain. So I think there's already been a victory. There's already been a situation where these

evil bastards couldn't just call their arrogant display of hatred and go ahead with it unchallenged.

They are being challenged and that's what's really vital. And the issue is to build that

challenge and to make sure that challenge prevails and that they just go back into the sewer

and stay there. I did feel that too, you know, watching all kinds mobilized towards Saturday

and a special kind of joy seeing the posters go up around the city using the imagery of

the baseball bats and the anti-fascist uh symbols. Because we are in scary political times, tense

political times, and a lot of people are exhausted and maybe want to avoid confrontation,

right? That's an easy kind of thing to do. It's hit and different watching what we're

seeing down south. And it's like, we don't want to wait to that point. Cause you're right.

Like Carney's very first bill wasn't, was a migration bill, right? It gave them sweeping

powers to ministers to revoke visas in the same way you're watching Trump revoke visas and,

you know, round up South Koreans working inside factories and all the other horrible stuff.

yeah, it, I feel like it's us responding not just to the Nazis who wanted to intimidate.

our immigrant community members in Toronto, but to all of it, right? And then obviously

a week after that is, uh, draw the line. Yeah. In fact, as you say that, I mean, I think

that the, I think the whole point is, that, is that the rise of the far right is a kind

of a symptom, you know, like if there's something wrong with the blood, you might get a pimple

on your nose. and they're the pimple. that, think, is what we're dealing with, is they

grow out of conditions of social crisis, and they grow out of situations of despair, and

they certainly grow out of passivity by working class movements. If you have that kind of

a situation, the growth of the far right is more or less inevitable. uh We need to build

therefore movements that engage in a struggle, and not just against the Nazis, but against

the conditions that are creating the Nazi presence. And we need to mobilize decisively. And if

we do that and build a movement that's strong, that's powerful, that's challenging the whole

vicious agenda of racism, austerity, uh militarization, attack on indigenous rights, uh the environmental

degradation that's being pursued, all of these things that are underway now. If we've got

a strong, powerful movement, then the fascists are going to be like an irrelevant force. They're

going to just not have the, they're not going to have the social base that they're looking

for. They'll just have to go home and look at their Nazi scrapbooks and give up. Even

the ruling elite will be insignificant, John. Yeah. Well, we've got, that's a, Bit of

a ways ahead, but I live for the day. yes, I I think that we've got to build the kind

of fighting movement. And when we do that, the Nazis will be like a little annoying bug that

you just squash. They'll be irrelevant. But if we remain passive in the face of this situation,

they will grow and they will become a threat. You just heard from John Clark, and when we

called him into the studio, He made it clear, look, I'd love to talk about the history of

Christie Pitts and the significance of now, but I can't take responsibility for doing the

organizing. I am not involved. I can't speak for them. But he did say whoever was doing

it was doing a vital service. And now we have one of the people who's doing one those vital

services in the studio with us today. Catherine, can you introduce yourself, please? Sure. My

name is Catherine Crockett. I'm involved with the General Defense Committee of the Industrial

Workers of the World. I'm a Wobbly. I've helped organize a whole bunch of counter protests

to hate rallies. We nearly always manage to shut them down. It's normally it's a matter

of just showing up in greater numbers. And I'm feeling really optimistic about the numbers

for Saturday. It's a beautiful thing when we outnumber them so much that they just kind

of give up and leave, which has definitely happened in the past. don't show up at all. Sometimes,

2018, the first anniversary of the Unite the Right hate rally in Charlottesville, there

was a vigil at Nathan Phillips Square and the far right tried to show up and they saw

that the square was full of um anti-fascists and they turned around and left. Some of them

literally ran. So. How satisfying. yeah. having excellent numbers is my favorite tactic because

it means everyone will have a less strenuous day than they might other. At least everyone

on our side will have a less strenuous day and we can network and hang out and do all that

good community building stuff and. I'm rather expecting that's going to be what happens

on Saturday because I don't think the person organizing the hate rally, Joe Anager, had

any idea what he was doing locating it at Christie Pitts. I don't think he knew. really? It seems

so deliberate to us. so symbolic, right? Yeah, I know. I think what happened was last year,

it was at Nathan Phillips, you know, December 2024, it was at Nathan Phillips Square and

His group did not manage to stay. We managed to shut them down just by tooting on the siren

on a megaphone every time any of them tried to speak. And it's really hard to push through

that and no one could hear them anyway. So they left. And I rather suspect he was just

picking a location that was further from downtown because he thought it might work better. I'm

sorry, I'm laughing at the idea he thought maybe they could fly a little bit under the radar

more at Christie Pitts and just doesn't realize the shitstorm he stepped into. yeah, yeah,

I really think he just had no idea. And of course, there's just enormous, I've never seen grassroots

pushback like this ever to a hate rally. people are constantly asking me is something happening?

And I'm like, yes, yes, there is. We're countering them. You should come. You know, all these

neighborhood groups on Facebook and the whole region are like, this can't happen. This must

not be allowed. And all sorts of community orgs are, you know, working on ongoing.

And I think if they even bother showing up, they're going to show up to find that the Park

is full of community members who have no patience with um this nonsense. And one of the beautiful

things about the Christie Pitts riot is it stayed done for 92 years. This is the first time

anyone has even tried this sort of crap since. Let's talk a little bit about what this crap

is because, you know, they're not labeling it as a hate rally. What are they telling people?

What? Are they preying on and trying to get folks to come out and rally around? They are

saying that they're to mass immigration. while they're not actually letting on what they mean

by that, they mean immigration by people of color. um And when they've had small outings

where they march around with flags on hockey sticks and such like... Canadian flags? Canadian

flags on hockey sticks, yeah. They tend to harass service workers who are people of

color. They will tell any person of color they see to behave and to conform to Canadian values.

And uh they generally seem to have a lot of fear, distrust, hatred towards people of color

and somehow think that they're less Canadian than white people. And they're on stolen ground.

They should know better. But of course they don't. uh they don't ever seem to get very

many people. Like the Nathan Phillips Square thing last year, they got under a hundred

and every other action they've done, you know, which I don't think they've been preannouncing

them. They get maybe three dozen and they just like wander around and sing the national anthem

very badly. And let their flags drag on the ground and generally do a really incompetent

job of being nationalistic. the more you describe them, the more they end up sounding like the

swastika clubs. John and I, you know, referenced in the first half of this. And just that the

harassment to the way like these would be the first fuckers to sign up for uh ice here in

Canada. Yeah. And one of John's opinions, I know you didn't get to hear it, but I'll tell

you. um was that part of the purpose for them was to try to build capacity, just like we

do, and literally build street armies. Yeah, they may be trying that, but I think what they're

doing is turning people off. Good. They're just, yeah, I'm also following some of the online

stuff because I'm trying to monitor their online presence and they... Just the more I see

the less competent they sound. you say confident or competent? Less competent. Like I think

they're both. think Joe Anujar is confident, but it's there's no basis in reality for him

to be confident. Sure, he got Tommy Robinson to um signal boost the action, but Tommy Robinson

is thousands of miles away in ah England and also. um For someone who's anti-immigration,

Tommy Robinson got kicked out of the country for lying to Canadian immigration. He's holding

his own rally in the UK on the same day. It's a significant date for them. Apparently. uh

So obviously we can't have something like this go unchecked. So how did the response start

to shape up for you? Someone showed me a Twitter uh post of Joanna Jarr's... saying

that they were going to do this at Christie Pitts and I said, no way in hell and talked

to some people in my union branch and we called an action and then later we found out other

people had called actions and were like, awesome. ah We can all show up and it will be great.

And, like everybody I've spoken to their reaction has been Christie Pitts. You've got to be kidding.

They cannot possibly be allowed to do that. And I'm really, really thrilled with just

the sheer unanimity of community response to this. I think it's a mixture of the location

choice, bad location choice, but also the timing, right, where folks are looking to take

a stand. Yeah. And imagine all the people who didn't, I mean, that's 90 years ago, 90 plus

years ago that that happened. And so there's going to be people who didn't know. I mean,

it's not exactly something Toronto advertises a whole lot. don't don't mark it as a city.

So I love that there's probably a good chunk of maybe generational that is learning the

history of the Christie Pitts riot and are embracing it the way we did before we started recording,

you know, how it was such a lovely thing to think back on. it was great. It was quite possibly

the first mass resistance to Nazism outside of Germany. And it really had some wonderful

long-term effects. Like there had been ongoing struggles with um segregation in Toronto parks.

And before we had air conditioning, it was pretty much a matter of life and death to

have access to parks, especially the Lakeshore parks. And there had been a lot of racist nonsense

about trying to exclude Italian and Jewish people from a lot of the parks. And there'd been

There've been other skirmishes, but after Christie Pitts, the city of Toronto made Nathan Phillips,

the dude City Hall Square is named after, made him parks commissioner. I believe he was the

first Jewish parks commissioner. I believe he later became mayor. And they worked on improving

park access and making it more equitable, which was, you know, a really awesome thing. I lived

about four blocks south of there in 1988. And there was a really nasty heat wave and drought

summer of 88. And I would see entire families coming out at night in their like jammies carrying

cots and they would sleep in like Garrison Creek Park, Bickford Park, etc. just to because if

you have a top floor apartment with a west exposure, it's not going to cool down. So People needed

parks access then just to avoid getting heat prostration. And I've heard like just oral

history of wonderful stories of cooperation. Like he is a Jewish dude called um Isidore

Rosenthal. He later had an electronics distribution company, but, was my grand boss, but he was

jogging towards Christie Pitts and some dudes driving a truck pulled over and said, Hey,

are you going to Christie Pitts? You want a lift? And it was some Italian Torontonian guys

who were taking a truckload of axe handles over. So he got a lift over, they probably gave him

an axe handle. But um it's like everybody who had grandparents in Toronto at the time has

a story about it. And it, I heard a speaker at one of the commemorative barbecues we did

talk about that and say that You know, some people would be like, oh, yeah, Zadie, sure

you were there. Everybody says they were there, but they probably were. Apparently the numbers

were such that chances are nearly all of the Jewish men and youth between 15 and 35 went

to Christie Pitts that night, like nearly all of them. then some. Yeah, yeah, and it worked.

It worked. ah We haven't had any problems with hate rallies at Christie Pitts in the 92 years

since. The parks, you know, there was a lot of reform in how the parks were run and how

they were made accessible. It was really successful and uh no one actually died. Even with all

the bats and axe handles. ah Like, I don't really care about what happens to the dots. It was

pretty vigorous, but yeah. And there's so much, there's been a ton of stuff written about it.

There are some books. There's a lot of stuff in the Toronto Public Library. um There have

been at least two graphic novels, The Beguiling, which is a few blocks southeast of Christy

Pitts. It's on College um near Augusta. um Actually, it's half a block south of Joe Schuster's house.

Joe Schuster, who is one of the two people who invented Superman. uh He lived like half

a block north of the Big Wildling um before he moved to the US. But um yeah, yeah, they

have graphic novels. There's all kinds of cool stuff. um I'm going to be rocking my Christie

Pitts Hardball League t-shirt on Saturday. uh It's a riff on the Three Arrows of the Iron

Front, which is one of the oldest anti-fascist groups. May we use it on our cover art? Oh,

awesome. We may still have a few shirts to sell, if anyone's interested, they're also available

on Bonfire online shirt vending site. If I find you, I'm going to try to buy one from you.

I will be there Saturday. OK, awesome. Now, let's talk about that for a second. That's

actually a talking point. Not everyone likes that, right? Some people will. see Charlie

Angus retweeting it. He's embracing it. I will reserve comment on Charlie Angus for this episode,

but that's going to rub some people the wrong way. Right? Maybe not our audience, maybe they

will. A lot of folks have a real heavy emphasis on nonviolence and, you know, three baseball

bats. Antifa already has a rep, right? m So we add the baseball bat reference and we glorify

riots, violent riots, you know, necessary. You know whose side I'm on here, but Let's

talk to the folks that are like, they're sitting a little uncomfortable. They want to defend

migrants, right? They definitely do not like this shit in their neighborhood or any neighborhood.

they don't know how to approach Antifa. oh the only time I've ever seen things get rough is

when the numbers are even. That is wildly unlikely on Saturday. On Saturday, chances are uh we

will outnumber them so massively they may even just give up and not even try. But the other

likely possibility is that they will wind up, the far right will wind up inside a pig pen,

which is what we call it when they're surrounded by several rows of cops. And they will spend

some time in the pig pen, find out it's not very much fun because people are either yelling

at them or ignoring them. get kettled, but like in a wholly different way. Yeah, yeah,

they sort of choose to be kettled. Like the cops will help them leave, but that's about

it. If people, yeah, anyone is concerned about violence, the thing that is most likely to

prevent violence is making sure a counter protest has excellent turnout. Because the more people,

if we get enough numbers, any tactic works. And nobody really actually wants to get hurt,

you know? So if we get, anytime we got great numbers, we would hang out, eat snacks, network.

make sure any nearby unhoused people got snacks too, because like we're in their space. And

it would, you know, maybe sing songs. It would be a pleasant experience. I think, but the

more people show up the better, because I want this to have a deterrent effect too. Like part

of the thing with the far right is they assume most people agree with them. Like I know for

sure, Joanna Jar thinks that most Canadians agree with him. And If he winds up showing

up with like two dozen goofs and we show up with like hundreds or thousands of community

members who are saying, no, we don't like you, we don't approve of you, you're wrong, go away.

That will actually help take the wind out of their sails. Um, did take him a while before

he started doing anything again after that thing in Nathan Phillips Square. mean, as an

organizer, can you not understand that? Oh, well, yeah. But, um, we went out, lay low

for a while. I've never failed that hard. No, maybe we don't know how I mean, I have

thrown some rallies where like, does you and a friend show up? So I will I bet I wasn't

to counter a force. the thing. Like, sometimes you go, okay, well, we've got the numbers to

do an information picket. So let's go with that hand out some leaflets. Part of the thing is

to like, sometimes it's funny. The Nathan Phillips Square thing, it was the same day as the Santa

Claus parade. And some people leaving the after the parade, Inc. walked across Nathan Phillips

Square and one of their group was like all excited about Canada First. And I don't think the

people she was with knew she was would support that sort of thing. And they were embarrassed

and not happy with her. And the kids who were with them were embarrassed and not happy.

At one point, she heard me refer to the group as white supremacists, and she decided she

was big mad at me personally. And she started yelling at me. And this was a very petite

woman in an elf costume. And she was literally hopping mad, just jumping up and down and

stamping her feet and waving her arms and berating me. And I'm just like, I could only laugh.

You know, it was just so ridiculous. And the people she was with kept trying to get her

to disengage. And I wasn't really helping because I didn't think, you know, it was too funny

for me to really want to like, cut things short. That's too tempting. getting berated by a white

supremacist in an elf costume was not on my bingo card. The things you get to see when

you push back. Yeah, yeah. What do you hope to get other than deterring the far right from

showing up on Saturday or, getting them to leave or pig pens and even warning them from trying

this again, particularly that group? Well, every time they fail, they wind up squabbling with

each other, which really saps their capacity. So that will be nice. um The other thing I

want to see is um lots and lots of networking and community organizing, because a lot of

people who don't necessarily usually come out will be there. And I hope they get talking

to each other and talking to organizers and, you know, Many good things will come from

this, including fairly unrelated stuff. Like all of us do all sorts of community work. I

do some support for a safe injection site and a food serve. And I do a bit of encampment

support. And all of those are things where we could use a lot more volunteers. Always sign

up sheets. You're all going to have your sign up sheets. Yeah, exactly. And I am sure I am

not the only person in this who is thinking of this as an opportunity to go, well, you're

obviously really interested in community defense. We have so many things that you could do. Tell

me what would be a good, you know, let's talk and we can find you a good fit. Because there

really is a ton of stuff that needs doing. um pretty much anybody who has any spare time

whatsoever um could probably be a huge help. That comment you made about numbers earlier,

deterring folks at the park and being enough to prevent violence, it's also the solution

to a bloodless revolution and a defense against... people often ask, besides the elbows up, you

what are going to do then to defend yourself against annexation or all these other external

threats they're worried about? And the answer is a united working class, right? Like numbers,

numbers, numbers, numbers, not just on Saturday. Yeah, there's that famous thing that allegedly,

if you get 3 % of the population out in the streets, anything works. And I've never

seen that many people come out, but I'd love to see it. We'll get there. but um yeah, having

a mass response is huge and it works. And like there was a famous women's strike in Iceland

and they went from women being very unequal in their rights there to things improving

dramatically and having a female head of government and so forth pretty rapidly. And it's just

like all the women were like, okay, we're on strike today. We're not doing anything. We're

just going to go outside and talk to each other. And that worked. And there are so many things

where, you know, solidarity is what it takes to get things done. And if there's ever a need

for folks to, you know, band together to find this kind of common ground, we can always find

differences, but surely fighting Nazis is one common ground. then next Saturday, right? Is

it next Saturday? The 20th. On September 20th, folks are again uniting under many, banners

to draw the line. And that's kind of like a pushback against anti-immigration rhetoric,

austerity measures, militarism, imperialism, and genocide, and all of that. so it's growing,

it's building, and Christie Pitts could possibly be just another one of those sparks. points

that help build um into that. That would be beautiful. Yes. I'm so glad that folks like

you are doing the work so that it's going to be an impressive turnout with purpose. We

didn't kind of get into the details, but there is all the links will be in the show notes,

folks, for you to RSVP, find it and find out more about it. But there's a community rally

that's planned, that's timed for when Canada first. was planning to be there, but then,

you know, presumably when dust settles or they scamper with the tail between their legs,

there will then be uh a massive reclaiming of the park continues with like a family oriented

day with all kinds of people that have signed up for activities to entertain children and

other kind of community activities. And I love that it's kind of this uh menagerie of a response.

uh because that truly is what community is doing. I think it's going to be a wonderful day. And

I hope that the um Canada first decides to like not bother showing up. So I get to concentrate

on attending the event and enjoying all the stuff they've got planned. um And I, you know,

I think that's actually not pretty likely that I'm really looking forward to being part of.

you know, either making sure they don't show up or, you know, fending them off if they

do. And I'm also like, I'm really happy about all the people who are organizing response

and also the orange hats and the movement defense committee who are awesome and who keep us safe.

The orange hats are legal observers and what they do is keep an eye on the police. and

the Movement Defense Committee helps anyone who gets arrested. And I'm not expecting anyone

on our side to get arrested, but you know, there's gonna be a lot of cops around, so who the heck

knows? um Hopefully the police will behave themselves. I know that, I believe the mayor and the local

city councilor have kind of- Commented. Commented, criticized Canada First. They say have about

the action, you know. Yeah, they've asked the hate crimes police like they're utilizing

those same tools used against us and saying, asking them to keep an eye on it. em We shall

see. Yeah, we shall see. But I would love to touch base afterwards as well. I'd be delighted

to Yeah, yeah, see how we all feel about how it went down. But yeah, the best of luck. on

Saturday. You won't need it though, the community will be with you. I feel I'm having feels about

this. I grew up in Toronto. I don't think I was totally familiar with that history and

I obviously did a deep dive going into this week and so I am also in awe of what happened

and riled up for Saturday and extremely hopeful, especially after talking to both you and John.

That's great. Yeah, thank you. I'm looking forward to meeting you too. Talk to you after our glorious

victory and may it stay done for another 92 years. That is a wrap on another episode of

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