Hi, and welcome to the animal welfare junction. This is your host, Dr. G and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today's guest is Marika Bell, host of The Deal with Animals, which is a podcast about anthrozoology and the interconnection between humans and animals. Welcome to the junction.

Hi. Hi. Nice to meet you. Thank you for having me on.

Yes, thank you for being here. How about you start by letting our listeners know about your background? What got you started into, into the field? Where you come from?

Uh, well, anthro zoology is a relatively new field compared to a lot of other disciplines. Um, so it really wasn't around when I was first going to college. I was kind of, I knew what I wanted to do in general. I wanted to work with animals. Um, I really wanted to work with big cats. And there was really no regular university sort of programs for, you know, that sort of connection with animals, which is what I was going for. I didn't want to be a veterinarian, nothing against veterinarians, but that wasn't where I saw myself. I actually, uh, faint when I see blood. So, uh, it didn't seem like a good path for me. Uh, But I figured the closest I could get to what I really wanted to do was zoology. So I did my degree in zoology at Washington State University and then over at the University of Washington I finished it off. So I stuck with that for a while and didn't really know, you know, zoology is kind of one of those things that really is sometimes pre vet. It's, it's a nice one to have if you want to know about physiology, but it, it doesn't really get you to the, um, philosophical stuff that you really want to be in when you're looking at the connection between humans and other animals. So I was kind of stuck for a while. I worked at zoos for a little while. Uh, I worked at pet stores for a little while, and, um, then I became a dog trainer. So, I did, uh, my own dog training business, and when it came to moving from, um, I was, I was doing my dog training business in New Zealand, uh, we decided to move back to the United States, and I got a position with, um, the Washington Humane Society, which is an organization now called, uh, ooh, something else, I have to look that one up again, it, it doesn't stick in my head as much as Washington Humane Society, which is where I worked for those few years, um, but. They basically took care of all of the animals, uh, in the, uh, Washington, D. C. area. So in the district, they were responsible for, um, all of, all of the dogs and cats, but also any, you know, goat that happened to be wandering down the street in D. C., which does actually happen sometimes. So, uh, wildlife, all of that. Uh, so I worked with them and I was the director for behavior and rehoming programs. And, uh, when I moved, From there, and we decided to go back to the UK for a couple of years, I kind of didn't know what to do. So I started looking into my master's and found anthrazoology, which again was not available, you know, the, I don't know, 15 years before that when I finished my zoology degree. So I jumped at that opportunity and got my master's in anthrazoology at the University of Exeter. And, uh, really, I feel like that sums up a lot of it.

So what is anthrozoology? Because we're talking about the interconnection between humans and animals, but I feel like it just means so much more than just that definition.

Yeah, and it's called by a lot of different names, too, again, because I think it's a very, uh, you know, a fairly new discipline. You hear it called, uh, Uh, anthrozoology, also zooanthropology, or, uh, human animal studies, which is probably how it was first known, and, um, a fantastic book written by Margaret, uh, oh, sorry, Margot de Mello, um, about humans and all of the ways in which humans interact with other animals. And that is where it really hit me that that's really what I'd been looking for the whole time, right? This, this idea of not just how do animals behave? It's interesting. How do animals work? That's interesting. But, but why are they connecting with us and how are they connecting with us? Uh, and examples of that would be, you know, our dogs and cats, obviously. How, how is it that? That animal, the totally different species, can live in our house. Like, that doesn't happen very often in nature, where two species coexist and, and live together. And so when it does happen, it's, it's really interesting, and especially with humans, because um, we are such a weird animal. I mean, we are, we're, we're very strange. Um. Um. But we're still just animals. So the way that we have our relationships with other animals, I just find very interesting. And the way that animals choose to have a relationship with us. Now, sometimes it's not a choice. And that is something we also talk about in anthrozoology, you know, the ways that humans use animals, the ways that humans think about animals, um, and, and how they reflect our own cultures, you know, how we use animals, um, in our art, in our music, um, you know, Even in our clothes or our medicine, you know, there's, there's just animals always connecting us, uh, no matter, you know, whether we like animals or not, whether we consider ourselves animal lovers or not, they're, they're always in our lives and, uh, we can't really get away from that and if we did, we probably wouldn't survive. So I, I just, I find all of it fascinating. Um, and I, I really like to share it, which is why I started the podcast.

Excellent. So, yeah. And, and what are the kind of things that I was looking through and I have listened to some of your episodes. So, I see that you separated into like series. Yeah. Um, so what got you, what got you started into doing that?

Well, again, I think I've alluded to this in just that there are so many subjects, right? There's, there's, it's a multidisciplinary area. There are so many different areas where anthrozoology comes into it, even if it's not considered anthrozoology technically. So, um, Because there's so much to cover. I really feel like I needed to narrow the scope a little bit and create these series so that people could come in if they don't know anything about the subject. It's kind of a 101 on that subject, but also for people who do know about a little bit about, say, animals in religion, they could come into that series. And, uh, still learn something because it's, it's trying to, I try to get guests from all over the world. So it's not just a, an American or a Western philosophy focused, um, podcast, but I also want to bring in subjects that are surprising, right? Something that, that maybe people haven't thought of before. It's not the same story that they've read in 15 different books about animals. You know, it's going to be something hopefully a little bit different.

Yeah, from looking at, I'm, I'm looking right now at the, at the website. So any of our listeners that want to look into this, the deal with animals. com, and I'm looking at your series library and you have all of these different, different topics that are, that are very varied, right? Like really different. Like we're going everywhere from vegan culture to animals in the divine and one health. So I mean, it's like, it's, it goes all over the place.

Yeah, and, and I like to keep things different, right? I don't want to stick with one thing for too long because I myself have a problem with getting bored. Yeah. So I want to learn something, I want to learn something new. So this is, I mean, I did a lot of this for me, I, I, I love sharing it, but I started the podcast because I personally needed to talk to people about. You know, these sorts of subjects, I like to learn about them and, uh, I knew that there were people out there that would love to share that information. So, uh, if I want to learn something, if I find it interesting, I think that my, my listeners will also find it interesting, which is one reason why I do like to jump around a little bit from series to series, even if the series itself stays pretty focused.

I think that, you know, one of the reasons I started the podcast was very similar. I wanted to let people know, like educate them and educate myself on all, all sorts of things, animal welfare, which we think about animal welfare as, as one definition, but it involves everything. It involves everything from how we feed our animals to animal cruelty investigations, to just all sorts of different things. So I find that podcasting gives us a voice to be able to give that information. So, you know, do you, do you feel that it's That podcasts overall are a benefit to shelters and advocacy efforts and such.

Yeah, in fact, I, one of the things that I have done in the last year or so is started a mentoring, um, part of what I'm doing to help people do that and I really focus on people who are either in the area of animal welfare or animal education and trying to get more information out there that's accessible for people, you know, who, who maybe aren't going to have the money to get the journals. Most of us don't have the money to get all the journals because they're actually really expensive. Uh, you gotta join a lot of different, uh, societies. And, you know, maybe they don't have the time to read or they don't have, you know, the, the know, in, in the know about all of the jargon for different things. And those are all roadblocks for people to learn anything new about, or to even enjoy themselves trying to learn something new, um, whether, you know, in any subject. So podcasts are a really accessible way to get your information out there and also to learn from, you know, what is put out there. And you have to sort through it a little bit, obviously, know where your information is coming from. But it really is. an excellent way of, especially if you're an organization like Animal Welfare, of getting, you know, getting your community to know about what you're doing. Just because you start a podcast doesn't mean you need to have 50, 000 or 200, 000 listeners. It could just be for your community and that will be a successful podcast. So if you're an animal welfare organization and you have a hard time, you know, getting people to, to hear about your adoption, you know, your adoption, um, Animals that are up for adoption or your, your events that you're having, or just want the community have more of a connection with your organization, knowing who your staff are, you know, knowing what, what, uh, what things you offer. You can start a podcast with that kind of information. And. And put it out there for the community, even if, you know, it seems like you only have 10 listeners to start with, you're still educating people, you're still getting that information out there, and they're going to talk about it, and you will be able to build on that until you've got people listening and, you know, using it for to as a resource, not to just know about your organization, but to know about what they should do when they've adopted an animal.

Looking at your, at your list, your last season was about the animals of the Maui wildfires. And I know that you have been doing, uh, having putting forth a lot of effort into the fundraising and that. So what led you to create that season? And can you give us a little bit of a summary about it?

Yeah. So animals of the Maui wildfires, which is my last season, uh, last series of season one. was really, uh, a labor of love. It was really different than all of my other episodes. So generally my episodes are a one on one or a round table episodes where I interview someone about what they're doing. Um, but for animals of the Maui wildfires, I really came to it in a different way. Um, I interviewed, I went to Maui, I was going to Maui anyway for a vacation, but it was, it ended up being two months after the wildfires, and I felt like I should talk to Maui Humane Society about what had happened, because I didn't really know what had happened. So when I went there and I, I talked with them, I really, I got this feeling that, uh, something really important had happened with the community. Something really, uh, Life changing had happened for the people who were there and, uh, who saw some of the things that they saw, but were also able to help their community. recover and we're continuing to recover. And I wanted to be able to share that, but I, at the time I listened back to my recording and I realized I just didn't have enough to be able to share that story well. So I sat on it for a while and didn't really, couldn't really figure out what to do because I definitely wanted to share that information. I had the platform to share it. Um, and I felt like that was, uh, uh, you know, within what I should be doing. It's my responsibility to do when you have a story like that, that you want to share. But, um, I didn't have enough voices. So I call, I called them back and said, Hey, is there anybody else who wants to talk, uh, about this? And I ended up interviewing a few more people who were staff at Maui Humane Society about their experiences and they were ready to talk about it. They wanted to talk about it. So what we did was we, we did these interviews and then we put them together more as a story arc as a narrative rather than an one on one interview style. Um, Okay. And, uh, I had a fantastic audio engineer come in who created some beautiful music for the series and, uh, did all of the sound design. It was excellent. Uh, it took a lot of time, much more time than it takes to do a single episode or even a single series, typically. Um, but it was, it was well worth it. It was, it was, It was an amazing project to be able to work on. And on top of that, we're running a fundraiser for Maui Humane Society to continue their work and to really get the word out about the series so that they can share their stories and their messages. We're sure, primarily messages of hope and, and, you know, hearing about the reunification stories of the animals that came out of the burn zone is wonderful. Um, but also, you know, sharing some of what they went through in a way that made them feel comfortable, I think was also really important because I, I think that sometimes these, these disasters happen. And We all really feel for the people who they're happening to and the communities, but because there's so much of that in the world right now that we're hearing, not that I don't think that that's a new phenomenon. I think there's always been, you know, natural disasters and, um, and wars and things happening that we have a hard time coming to grips with, but we hear about them more now because Of media and, and how accessible everything is, the downside to accessibility maybe, um, but we, we, I don't want to say we forget about when something happens, but something else takes its place so fast, unfortunately, uh, so with the anniversary of the wildfires, uh, just passed, uh, August 8th. Um, I really wanted to remind people what had happened and what we need to do to prevent it in the future. And so it seemed like a really good time to release it, uh, right before the, the anniversary and run this fundraiser through August to try to get 10, 000 for Maui Humane Society to continue all of their fantastic work. So if anybody wants to donate to that, they can do that through my website as well.

Yeah. And I think that one, one thing that you said that is important for people to understand is the impact that it has on the people that take care on the end of the animals, right? Because We hear about the animals of Maui and we're thinking about the horrible things that the animals are enduring. But we also have to take into consideration what the humans that are helping those animals that have to see that, that, you know, or that are experiencing losses, what their story is as well.

Yeah, and that happens all the time in animal welfare, doesn't it? I mean, it's not just when a disaster happens. In animal shelters, it's one of those things where it really never ends. We end up seeing sort of the worst of, of everything, um, related to that bond with humans and, and companion animals. Um, and we can forget that there's a really positive side of that as well.

Yeah, we, we talk a lot about compassion fatigue and, uh, and the impact that having to deal with these bad situations. And then on top of that, the, the public that is not very well educated at times. It brings more grief to the humane, you know, everybody in shelter med and the veterinarians and everything else. And it, you know, it takes everybody learning and becoming educated and working together so that it makes it a better environment for the animals and for the people that are working with the animals. Because realistically, if we don't have those shelter workers, who's going to take care of the animals, right? So we need to be a little bit more kind.

Well, and it shouldn't be an us versus them, right? Like, we're part of the community and they're part of the solution when it comes to issues of animal sheltering and animal welfare. And so we have to be working on it as a, as a team and, and not seeing it as a, as a, you know, you know, This group versus that group and, and, you know, we can all be working on it together. And I think, again, podcasts are a great way of doing that. Being able to share your story and making the staff human for people, for the, for the community, I think is so important. Because it really is really very easy for people to say, well, I couldn't work there. I think we've all heard that, right? I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that job. I never do what you do much. Yes, that one. You're like, oh that hurts But I think what people really understand why we work in animal sheltering And, and why it's important if you love animals to know what's going on in animal sheltering and animal welfare. You know, it is important. You can't just, you shouldn't just close your eyes and hope somebody else is doing the job.

Right. And it's, and even if you could not do it, at least be supportive to the people that are doing it. Because it is hard, it is hard work. Yeah. like your whole series eight was centered on animal shelter world, uh, in the, what is it? The world of animal welfare and sheltering. So can you tell us what, what people, because we have a quite a few of our listeners that are, that are shelter people. So can you tell us what they could expect to, to learn from that series?

Yeah, that series was a really fun one again, because my background is in animal welfare and sheltering. Um, I, I first started training dogs, By working with shelters and, and training dogs in a shelter environment, met my first pit bull that way, and, uh, I remember, if I could just share this quick story, I remember that, uh, her name was Una, and she was this white pit bull, and, uh, I wasn't sure if we were allowed to go in with her, because we didn't see pit bulls very often back then, you know, that was, that was a time where people were still euthanizing pit bulls most of the time whenever they came to the shelter, and, uh, I was told that, yes, she was very nice, I should go ahead and work with her, it was fine. So I went in there, and I brought a hairbrush, and I brought my clicker, and I brought some treats, and I was gonna see if I could groom her a little bit, and I showed her my hairbrush, and she cowered. And it just, my, my heart, you know, it hurt. Um, so I sat down, crossed my legs, and she came over and curled up in my lap. Her entire, you know, huge 80 pound ness curled as tight as she could in a tiny ball on my lap. Um, and I couldn't pick up the hairbrush because she would just, she would, she would shrink away. So I just sat there and I cuddled with her. And that's how we spent our, you know, 15 or 20 minutes. And it was lovely and I have, I've loved pit bulls ever since. They're beautiful. She, she was a beautiful, beautiful animal. Um, Sorry, I, now I've forgotten your question. Oh, what can people expect from the series? Yeah, from Series 8. Um, so, I think there's a lot in Series 8, uh, for people who maybe want to learn more about animal welfare and what actually goes on. Uh, but also I really wanted to make it a series that was going to be useful for people who are already in animal welfare. So I talked to, uh, quite a few people who are leaders within the animal welfare community in things like new ideas, right? What, what are new things that we could be doing? Um, What are things that are working that are, uh, really progressing animal welfare and sheltering in a way that is humane, in a way that is, uh, connecting with the community. So it, it was really a way of. Trying to find that nice middle ground between getting some information out there for people who didn't know anything about animal welfare and really just want to know what's going on versus the people who, who really already know what's going on, but maybe want a new perspective or want some new ideas and what they can be doing a little bit different to make things better.

There's something because, you know, it takes everybody coming together and it's about collaboration and not everything works everywhere, but a shelter may be struggling, whether it be with their intake protocols or with how they take care of the animals, their behavior, you know, adoption, marketing, all that stuff. And there may be another shelter that can help them with that. So being able to work together with, with other groups instead of. I just see so much divisiveness anymore, you know, like people saying, Oh, our shelter is better than that shelter because they do X, Y, and Z, or they don't do X, Y, and Z, and it's like, let's lift each other up and let's help each other, right? Because in the end, it's about getting these animals taken care of and getting them adopted.

Yeah. You know, one of my favorite episodes in that series was a roundtable I did with Nanette McCann, who is the executive director at a local animal shelter here, um, called, uh, Homeward Pet Adoption Center. And, uh, Corey Regnerus Kell, who works in New Zealand and, uh, is a, um, oh, now I can't remember his title. He, he is the District manager. He, he oversees quite a few of the, uh, shelters, the, the SPCAs in New Zealand and, you know, two different worlds, right? Like two different approaches, um, to animal welfare and sheltering, uh, some, some of them similar and some of them, you know, we were just learning from each other the whole time. It was a great conversation. We, we all had a really good, good time with that one. And, you know, And the amount of times we were like, Oh, so how do you do this? Oh, how do you, you know, it was just really fun conversation and learning from each other, which was great.

So switching gears a little bit, because it goes along with shelter problems that we see a lot of animals that end up in shelters is because of behavioral issues. So first, I don't think that that many people in the community understand the difference between a trainer and a behaviorist. So, can you tell us about that, what, what the difference is?

Um, a behaviorist. is very science focused, and they like to work with the quadrants often, and if that's not a term that people have heard, it's a pretty common dog training term, um, talking about, uh, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, negative punishment, um, and, and behaviorism stems from uh, Uh, a lot of work previously done within animal behavior, um, the science. So it's a very science based approach to dog training. A dog trainer is often a behaviorist, right? A behaviorist is often a dog trainer. Not always. Uh, but dog trainers, I would say for the most part, again, this is overgeneralization, focused on obedience and on training cues. Whereas, maybe a behaviorist is, is similar, but a behaviorist might also be focused on, uh, figuring out where that behavior is coming from in more of a scientific way. So they want to, to solve a behavior problem sometimes, and, and that takes really looking at context, right? Looking at the whole context. And I'm not saying just a dog trainer doesn't do that because they usually have to do that as well. Um, but a lot of it just depends on the approach and, and what the end goals are. Sometimes you can get a dog trainer who, who has no scientific background, um, is not certified in any kind of dog training and they, they can still be a good dog trainer, um, because they understand, you know, dog body language, or they understand, you know, how to teach a cue, um, and that's great, but they might not be able to tell you why the dog is food resource guarding. Um, but they might be able to solve the behavior one way or the other. Yeah. It kind of depends on, you know, what your, what kind of connection you're looking to have with your pets.

So what, what do you need to do to become certified as a professional dog trainer?

Yeah. Uh, well there's quite a few different certifications out there in the world. Um, when I was looking to become a certified dog trainer, I went through the certification council for professional dog trainers. It's called CPDT. And back then I was living in New Zealand and I was again, starting my dog training business. And I'd had some previous experience, um In practicing with clickers and in, I had a certification through the animal behavior college as well, which is a dog training program, but I didn't feel like I was really ready to take clients just from that. So I actually did a whole lot of reading, read pretty much every dog training book I could get my hands on. And I really became focused on, uh, positive reinforcement style dog training. Uh, so that, the certification council, that was a really good match for me in terms of how to become and, and what kind of certification I wanted, uh, because that often tells you what kind of dog trainer you're going to get, depending on what kind of certification they have. So, yeah. CPDT is very much focused on positive reinforcement style training, um, but they are very inclusive as well and understand when there is sometimes a need to, to think outside the box. Also, um, you know, cookies aren't always the answer to everything and positive reinforcement isn't always about cookies. So it's, it's really important to know your science and to know why animals do what they do and, and dogs, if, if you're a dog trainer. Uh, so I was living in New Zealand and, uh, they didn't have a certification program set up in New Zealand at all. So I had to kind of start that right from the ground up and find my own proctor and get my own, um, you know, to sit the exam. I, of course, I was the only one sitting in the exam and I was just sitting there with, with the proctor. Um, and yeah. It was it was kind of funny, but it made it work, you know, found a room to in the local college that let me borrow and and I got my certification done through through that. So it's it's kind of a long process. You have to get a lot of, uh, letter of recommendations from colleagues from from veterinarians that you've worked with. And even from clients. So you actually start taking clients typically before you become certified just to get that background. Um, but what a lot of what I had done is I'd gone into shelters and worked with the shelter dogs for free. Just offered my services to the shelters So that I could get that practice in because as much as you read books about dog training You know dogs are not recipes dogs are dogs are individuals and they aren't going to follow the recipe They're not gonna follow the literature. They don't read And they will always throw something new at you, you know I can't, all the times that I thought this, this should work, this should work. Why is this not working? Um, because, you know, dogs, they, they are going to teach you something new. So it's good to get that hands on experience and working with a shelter, if there's a shelter that really could use that help, is a great way of doing that.

Yeah, I think that it would be very beneficial for, humane organizations and shelters to have dog trainers, both for trying to keep animals from coming into the shelter to begin with, you know, if it is something that can be worked with, with the pet owner, you know, if the pet owner is having a problem that is manageable and the pet owner is willing to work with it, because we got to remember that we need to have the willingness to, to do the work. Um, and then also to make animals more adoptive, right? Like it, what is the overall benefit of, of training for shelter animals?

You know, I think the biggest benefit to the shelter animal is that Interaction with humans, whether they learn anything from the training or not, it's it's giving them something to do being in a shelter is very boring. Being in a shelter is is stressful. And anytime we're. If the animal can get out and interact with someone, if they can learn something from that as well, great, but often they're actually too stressed in a shelter to be able to take on much. Uh, I think one of the, one of the first things you learn as a dog trainer is that dogs learn much more easily when they're happy and when they're comfortable and when they're having fun. Uh, that's sometimes hard to get to in a shelter environment. Uh, it's a little easier in a foster. Um, but if they can just get out and have a little bit of fun, um, you do a little training, it gives them something to think about. It's such a great way of, of doing enrichment with the dogs. So I honestly, I feel like that is the most important part, um, for the, for the dog trainer. Yeah. They're going to get some experience. The dogs are definitely going to learn something. Um, yeah, they're, they're going to have, they're going to have a little bit of, you A background and how to sit better, you know, how to sit in a stressful circumstance, then they would have, if they didn't do any training at all. So, anything, you know, that's positive, anything that's not going to stress them out further. Uh, don't push too hard if you're working with a dog in a shelter. Certainly don't use any techniques that are punishment based or, um, going to cause them any kind of fear or pain. And I would say that for all dogs, but particularly for dogs in a shelter that is now what they need. Um, and, and if they are behaving in a way that makes you think that that is what they, you know, would benefit from, then, then you've really got to have a long conversation about, you know, what, what is, you What the dog is there for and whether they're going to make it through the system at all, but I, I truly feel that, um, you shouldn't need any of those techniques to work with an animal. You know, my background was working with big cats for a while, and, uh, you, you don't use those techniques with big cats. You, you don't put a prong collar on a big cat. You don't use an electric shock collar. Um, if you tried to do that, they would kill you. So, um, you, you. work with them in a positive way. You know, you, you have to, um, often you're, you're working between, you know, you've got a cage between yourself and a big cat, um, you often don't have that with a dog. So, you, you literally, even if you wanted to, to punish or use any kind of negative, uh, punishment or, sorry, uh, positive punishment to actually, uh, work with a big cat, you couldn't, because you often, you know, you have this barrier. Uh, and if you don't have to with big cats, why would you have to with dogs?

Yeah, I mean, it, it is a huge pet peeve of mine, is the electric shock collars. Um, because I think that you get one of two things you get either submission or aggression, right? Like that's going to be the two things that they're going to come up with you're injuring this animal. They're confused They don't they don't necessarily associate the the discomfort with the action So then they're going to learn to either be afraid of you and hide from you or they're going to, you know, not be able to take it anymore and become aggressive and we see some Some animals in in shelters that You know, are trained in these manners. And then you get the, the person coming into the adoption and they're handed this remote and told, here you go. This is how you're going to control your dog. And you know, there are some really horrible stories of things that happen with these electric collars. Once again, once that dog has decided that it's not putting up with it, or just the fact that you're not really doing anything to control the behavior. All you're doing is just kind of like putting the stop. This temporary stop. You're not getting to the root of why the dog is doing what they're doing. It's, it's almost like, like, like an easy fix.

Yeah, you're not, and you're not creating a relationship with that dog that, that is based on trust. Um, again, if it's, if it's equipment that you wouldn't use on your child, I wouldn't use it on a dog. Um, I think it's cruel. There are, I know there are other people who use those sorts of equipment and, and, You know, you'll hear the whole, um, if you use it the right way, then it's not cruel, or use it the right way, and it teaches the dog quickly, so they can't, you know, hurt themselves, and, and I understand that, that that's, you know, for some dogs, it probably does work, you know, certain, certain personality dogs, Um, you know, maybe, but there are, there's fallout no matter what, any dog, there's going to be some fallout, whether you see it right away or not, and that could be a damaged relationship with that person. Um, it could be that they're not willing to listen to you when that thing is not on their neck. Um, you know, there, there is, there is, uh, damage to someone when you use pain to, to train them, whether it seems to work in the moment or not. So yeah, I would always tell people that that's not appropriate.

Yeah. And especially my fear is when people are using it because of aggressive problems

and, and

that's only, I would never use it for a dog who is

already showing aggression for sure. I mean, like I said, I would never use them, but, but yes, I would be particularly concerned if someone was trying to use it for, any kind of pain or punishment technique in a dog that was already showing aggression.

So what, what would you say to shelters as far as things that they can do to improve the quality of life of animals? Since we're seeing these animals that are staying in shelters for longer periods of times than we used to. What, what are the kind of things that shelters can do to, to do better by these animals?

That's a really good question. Um, you know, I think we need to get them out of the shelters faster. And, And I know that there, there are some difficulties with that and a lot of, it's a blanket statement that the, that doesn't solve the problem. But, Anything we can do that will help the dog or the cat in the shelter be more comfortable is important. Um, I think training is a really good option for that. I think anything we can do to, again, get the community more involved. These are their animals, and I think they need to see it that, that way, you know. Um, again, I think people should, I think shelters should start their own podcasts. Um, I think that that's a way of, of being able to connect with the community. Um, And it doesn't cost a lot of money. It, it, it does take some time, um, and it does take some, some learning the equipment and learning the process. But it's not difficult. I mean, honestly, if I could do it, then it's definitely not difficult. I'm not a techie person. Um, and, and if they just, you know, want to do it, I don't know, you know, a short series, six episodes on, you know, what to do once you get your dog home. Or what to look for when you're actually looking for a dog to adopt. Like, what are the things you should be looking for? And, you know, spoiler, it is not the color of the dog, um, nor the size. Sometimes it's actually more about the dog's personality. Um, and, you know, maybe their hair and their size comes into that a little bit. But, you know, looking at what kind of personality that you, you can live with is much, much more important than the breed of the dog. Um, but that's my soapbox. So if, you know, if you can, if you can start a podcast, if you can get someone doing even just, you know, five minutes of interviewing the other staff members so that the community knows who's working there and what they're doing and how important their jobs are. I think it's a great way of connecting. And I think anything like that, even if it doesn't feel like it's directly for the animals. Um, Anytime we can connect with the community and get the community's involvement is going to be beneficial for them. Like I said, get the animals out faster.

Yeah, I think that when people see a dog or a cat that's available for adoption, they see it on TV or something. It just makes them kind of almost bond through, through the media with that animal. So if we get, if we get people to learn about the residents of the individual shelters, It may encourage people to come in and meet them and if anything, take him home, take him for a day or, you know, like, even if you're taking them to the park and bringing them back, at least it's, it's something, you know.

Oh gosh. Yeah. I love the ones where the dogs can actually get out of the shelter for more than just a walk. You know, they get to go to the beach or they get to go to the mountain and have a bit of a hike and get out. Um, not for every dog. Not every dog is going to be up for that, you know. Um, but yeah. In a lot of cases, that's a great way to burn some energy, uh, and, and really get to know the dog better too. I don't know if you can truly know an animal until you've walked them. You know, dogs, until you've been on the other end of that leash, you just don't know what they're going to be like. Um, take them out to all sorts of places, you know, to find out how, how they feel about being in public. Find out how they feel about being near other dogs. If you walk past a dog park, you know, find out how they feel about being in the woods. Um, you know, ask them questions. I think maybe that's a good answer too. It's just ask, ask that animal a lot of questions while they're there. That's, you know, they're, they're there for a while. Um, sometimes too long, but even if it's only for a few days, ask that dog so many questions.

So is there anything that we have not touched on or anything else that you want to share with our audience? Um, I

guess one of the things that I would love to share with people is, Uh, and this still is on the same vein as, as starting a podcast. If you just don't feel like your organization can start a podcast, um, doesn't have time, doesn't have the money. Uh, again, I don't think those should be huge barriers, but if you feel like they are, try to just be guests on other podcasts. Like that's a great way of getting, you know, getting more your organization out there more about what you're doing is find some other podcasts and try to be guests. Um, you know, there's, there's always. I think that's a good story to tell about how you became, you know, part of animal welfare or a particular animal that you want to share. I think that that's a really good way of, of Yeah. Raising awareness for your mission, but also interacting with the community more.

So anybody listening, if you want to get more information, visit the deal with animals. com and you can get information on the podcast, on the episodes. And also if you're so inclined to donate to the animals from the Maui wildfires.

Yeah. Thank you so much.

Yeah. Thank you so much for being here and for everything that you're doing. Keep up doing the good work. And for everybody that's listening, thank you for listening and thank you for caring.