They want to use things as they want to use them.
They wanna stop using them as they don't want to use them.
And I always joke, like they wanna live on the beach one month,
and then like three months later they wanna go live in the city.
Right.
So they're renting more.
They don't necessarily, they don't buy cars, they lease cars.
Look at all the streaming services.
Use them as you want.
Cancel 'em as you don't want to use them.
Everything has moved to this model because subscriptions provide convenience.
And that's what our next generation's about.
Welcome to the e-Commerce podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.
The E-Commerce podcast is all about helping you deliver e-commerce wow.
And to help us do just that, I am chatting with today's guest, uh, Chris George
from the subsummit.com, and also from the Subscription Trade Association about how
subscriptions improve customer experience.
Yes, we're gonna get into all subscription stuff, uh, but before
Chris and I dive into our conversation, uh, let me share with you, uh, my
previous podcast pick, the three Ps.
Oh yes.
The previous episode that I think you're gonna enjoy.
Based on today's topic, check out how to increase your customer retention.
The ultimate guide, uh, and everything you need to know to take over with
subscription e-Commerce, with Evan Padgett, uh, it's just gonna add to
the conversation, uh, and you can access my podcast pick, uh, it's just
not easy to say, is it, uh, on our, and our entire podcast for free on
our website, eCommerce podcast.net.
Plus, if you are there, sign up to the newsletter and we'll send you our links
to our podcast Picks, the notes from today's conversation with Chris, the
links, everything just gets delivered straight to your inbox, all at no cost
to you, which I think is pretty amazing.
Now, uh, Chris, I'm sure you've come across a bunch of folks stuck with their
e-commerce website, or they've got siloed into working on just one or two areas of
their business and miss the big picture.
Well enter e-commerce cohort solve this particular problem.
It is a membership group which you can join if you are in e-commerce,
which is gonna help you cycle through all the key areas of e-commerce.
The sole purpose of which is to provide you with clear and actionable jobs to be
done so you'll know what to work on and you'll have the support to get it done.
So whether you are just starting out an e-commerce or if, like me, you're a bit
of an e-commerce dinosaur, uh, then I encourage you to definitely check it out.
You can find out more information at ecommercecohort.com, have a look at that
because what they're doing is great.
I'm a part of it.
Uh, love being a part of it.
Uh, and in fact we just, we've got some great guests doing
some great, uh, workshops and cohorts, so it's gonna be awesome.
Anyway.
Enough about me.
Let's meet Chris, the unstoppable serial entrepreneur who has
successfully launched and managed seven businesses and has sold two of them.
Uh, he's the mastermind behind the wildly popular gentleman's
box and hosts his own podcast.
Oh, yes, he does.
We're gonna get into what his podcast does, what it's all about.
We're gonna get into this, uh, subsummit.com.
I'm really excited, Chris, to have you on the show.
Welcome man.
Great to have you here.
How are you doing?
I'm very well.
Thank you for having me.
Oh, no worries.
It's great.
It's great to have you.
So let's just dive.
What, tell us about your podcast.
Let's start off there.
You're a podcaster yourself.
Yeah, I can tell actually by the, by the, the gear.
Uh, you know, and you have people cuz if you're watching
the video, you'll see, right?
There are some people that come on with just like AirPods and you kind
of think, okay, you've not really done many of these, but not you.
No, no, no.
You've got a bunch of tech.
So, uh, tell us about the podcast and what that's all about.
Yeah, it's a subscription podcast.
You know, we, my background is in subscriptions and we run
the largest event in the world for all consumer subscriptions.
Mm-hmm.
So it was only fitting that we'd have a podcast around subscriptions.
Right.
And it's, uh, you know, me and my co-founder Paul, we jump on, we chat
about relevant things that are happening.
Right.
Twitter, coming out with the Twitter blue and how that's a subscription
and you're seeing more and more brands pivoting to the subscription model.
So it only makes sense that we'd have some sort of podcast around that.
But you know, I always say, I think we think we're funnier
than everybody else might think.
No.
Us watching it is always great, but it's um, It's relevant to
what's happening within e-commerce.
Yeah, it's everything subscription.
More and more brands are pivoting to the subscription model.
So we're, you know, we stay at the forefront of that.
Mm-hmm.
And we do that through a large event.
We do that through our podcast.
We do that through written content, all the above to keep us as a
leading voice within the space.
Yeah.
It's interesting, isn't it, that you are, um, The, the, the podcasting.
Um, and how actually that does help you become a sort of a leading, like you say,
the leading voice, uh, in an industry.
And I'm a, I'm a big fan of podcasts for that reason.
Uh, but like you, I probably think I'm funnier than I actually am when it
comes to, when it comes to the podcast.
Uh, so, so yeah, I mean, it's what have you.
I appreciate this is a show about e-commerce, but uh, it's always
nice to speak to a fellow podcaster.
Yeah.
What are some of the key things that you've learned from podcasting that you
kind of wish you knew when you started?
You know what?
I think, um, I think a lot of it's the basic stuff, right?
Like being consistent, having relevant content, you know, and I, I don't know
that it's anything that's special, right?
It, it's the consistency, it's the relevant content.
It's using clips from the podcast to drive more people to watch it.
I think you have to love it, right?
Like, don't just podcast because you think you should podcast, right?
You hear that all the time.
Like someone's like, oh, I'm gonna start a podcast.
And then I also think.
Everybody probably thinks that they're more entertaining and
funnier than they really are.
And so I always will joke, like people will be, oh my
God, that podcast is amazing.
And I'll be like, look, you know me when I hear about like some person that's like
in California that doesn't know who Chris is and like thinks it was really good.
Mm-hmm.
Then I'll feel really good about it.
Um, but.
I think you, you do it because you like it.
You don't do it because you think you're supposed to.
I think you do it because you like it.
Mm-hmm.
You know how you can use that within your business or industry
and really have purpose behind it.
Right.
Some people run podcasts so that they can build relationships with others.
They build podcasts as lead gen, right?
There's gotta be some sort of purpose, uh, And drive around why you're doing it.
Yeah.
What's the end goal?
It's not always just viewers, it's not always listeners.
Mm-hmm.
And I think people get caught up on that.
So, you know, I think for me it would've been, I wish I did it five years ago.
Right, okay.
Instead of doing it out.
Yeah.
So we were so focused on so many other things, and I think that.
We're seeing consumer's attention is, is all on the phone, and being
able to put clips together that drive them to a larger format podcast
longform video, use the short form to drive them to longform as mm-hmm.
A recipe they should be doing.
Right.
Because one one hour podcast, you might pull 30 clips from it.
Yeah.
You can pull a lot from one episode.
Right.
Yeah.
No, we do exactly the same thing.
You just, you pull a lot of the clips out of it, which is just wonderful.
So why, why subscriptions?
So you've got this event Sub Summit, which is the largest, uh,
event to do with subscriptions.
We'll talk about that.
You've got your podcast, the subscription podcast.
I'm spotting a theme with the word subscription.
I'm not gonna lie, Chris.
Um, so why subscriptions?
How did you get into that?
Was that by accident or was it by design?
Well, I'll say why subscriptions because every e-commerce brand
should have a subscription model.
But I got into it because I was originally the co-founder and CEO of the Gentleman's
Box, which was a subscription box for men.
We sent you ties, dress socks, tie clips, all delivered to your door monthly.
This was 2014 when subscription boxes were still relatively new.
Yeah, we had a partnership with GQ Magazine very early on, and you
know, I sort of identified that consumers were looking for value.
Mm-hmm.
It's easier to retain a customer than to acquire a new one every single month.
And if I can consistently build a relationship with a customer with
my subscription, that was the way I was going to be able to compete with
the amazon.com and the walmart.com.
Cause I'm gonna provide them with an experience that you
can't get on a retail level.
Mm-hmm.
That worked well, that got accord in 2020, but in that time, we
identified nobody was cultivating this community within subscriptions.
And that's when we started Sub Summit.
And I think that becomes very important because, Gentleman's box was.
Was like the launchpad for what?
Us having a product within an industry to us then leading the whole industry.
And now you're seeing every brand nearly from Mercedes-Benz
to Porsche to Microsoft office.
Right.
You know, five, seven years ago you paid $500 for that program, or maybe you lied
and said you were a student and got it for 150 bucks, but now you pay a monthly fee.
Right?
Yeah.
And I, and the big reason for that, This next generation of consumers
are about usership over ownership.
Mm-hmm.
They want to use things as they want to use them.
They wanna stop using them as they don't want to use them.
And I always joke, like they wanna live on the beach one month,
and then like three months later they wanna go live in the city.
Right.
So they're renting more.
They don't necessarily, they don't buy cars, they lease cars.
Mm-hmm.
Look at all the streaming services.
Use them as you want.
Cancel 'em as you don't want to use them.
Everything has moved to this model because subscriptions provide convenience.
Right.
And that's what our next generation's about.
They don't, I joke, but Gen Zs don't have to work hard for anything.
Right.
You want food, you just DoorDash and it's at your door.
Yeah.
Right.
You wanna drive somewhere, you jump in an Uber.
Yeah.
10 years ago you couldn't do that.
Right.
And so subscriptions are a big reason why that works.
That's why I'm a big proponent of it.
And, and like I said, you're seeing more and more brands
that are pivoting to the model.
So this is really interesting.
So when you started out, the gentleman, uh, the gentleman's
box, uh, and the subscription model was definitely back in 2014.
Was, like you say, it was around, but it was not properly around.
Um, at that point I saw a few things like the beauty box and, you know,
those kind of sort of things start to come out and people were like,
I, yeah, this, you know, I, I could see how people found it attractive.
It seemed relatively cheap and relatively convenient to, to sort of get it.
And so you are, you are, you've got the business and you kind of think,
oh, we could do this around the gentleman's box, what was, and then
you did it to 2020, is that right?
So you did that for sort of over six years.
Let's jump into the nitty gritty a little bit.
Um, uh, Chris, if you don't mind, so what if I'm an e-commerce business and
I don't have subscription uh, as part of my arsenal, what are some of the,
sort of the key lessons that you've learned that I should really think about?
Um, when I, when I do start?
When you do start a subscription or when you go start an e-commerce brand?
When you start a subscription yeah.
I mean any, I mean, if you,
yeah.
I mean, look, if I'm an e-commerce business that I'm already selling
products and I wanna say, well, how can I build a subscription model around it?
Mm-hmm.
I think it becomes what is something that I can provide the consumer monthly,
or quarterly, or bimonthly, whatever that cadence might be, that's going to
provide the consumer value that's going to keep them engaged with my brand.
Yeah, I think it becomes very important.
Nobody, I don't care who you are, you start, you have an e-commerce
company, you're never going to sell something cheaper than Amazon will.
You're never going to ship it to the consumer faster.
Mm-hmm.
But the way you're gonna separate yourself from them is by having
an exclusive product, something you can't get anywhere else.
Right?
Yep.
Or you build a relationship with a consumer, so they don't
wanna buy it from anywhere else.
Right.
Amazon sells candles.
But if I provide a really unique candle subscription, I might
be able to differentiate my, differentiate myself from Amazon.
Yeah.
Right.
Look at like what Chewy did.
chewy.com sold for 2.5, 3.5 billion.
They were selling dog food and dog treats.
There was nothing special.
I mean, so did Amazon.
Mm-hmm.
But they built that experience with the consumer.
That they couldn't get anywhere else.
Yeah, and that's what separated themselves from Amazon.
That's what allowed them to get acquired by peco.
That's what subscriptions do, is it builds a relationship with the consumer, and
that's something that Amazon won't do.
Walmart won't do.
Target won't do.
Right.
And, and so what I'm doing, if I'm an e-commerce brand and
I'm thinking, well, what's the product or service I can provide?
How can I consistently use that to engage the customer?
Mm-hmm.
What's the value to that customer?
And then the value to the business is already proven.
Right.
Subscriptions businesses have way higher valuations than typical e-commerce brands.
You've got predictable income.
Yeah.
Right?
And so that changes everything.
Yeah.
And the predictable income is quite a big deal, isn't it?
I mean, this is part of the reason why subscription models are more valuable.
Um, and why actually, me, as an e-commerce business owner, I'm kind
of, I'm, I'm really predictable income is not something you would've normally
associated with e-commerce business, other than the fact if I spent 10 grand
over here on paid media, I should in theory, get 20 grand worth of sales.
That was as bad as predictable as it got, but, With the, with the subscription
model, you do have that predictability.
Do you, I guess some of the questions that people have about this, um,
Chris, if I can ask them, cause we've got some questions come in.
Of course.
Do you have, uh, many people who sign up to the subscription and then cancel, like
just to get the offer or the benefit, but then there's a high fallout rate?
Of course, right?
But everything comes onto LTV.
There's an average lifetime value of the customer.
So you had made a comment, you said you'd spend 20, $10,000 on paid
media and you get $20,000 in revenue.
That doesn't happen with subscriptions.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
You might spend 10,000 in media and you might get 7,000 in revenue,
but that's on first purchase.
Now, if I'm a $50 a month subscription, and I know on average.
Customers stay on for eight months.
Right.
There's some that cancel right away.
Yeah.
There's some that stay on for 15 months.
My average is eight.
Well, my revenue's $400.
Yeah.
Per customer.
That theoretically might mean that that $10,000 in ad spend netted me $40,000.
It just, it takes time.
Yeah.
Right.
You need the renewals and if you can get your consumer
investment back within two months.
Huge win.
They stay on average for if, if there's a three to one ratio CAC to
LTV, you're on pace to build a really successful, healthy subscription model.
And that's why you'll find that a lot of brands that are scaling fast
are like on a one-to-one ratio.
Like, I don't know how familiar you are with like acquisition
costs on subscription models, but they can be very high.
Right?
Yeah.
Like for example, you might find that Netflix is a $20 a month
service and they're spending $130 to acquire a customer.
And you're gonna say, well, gosh, those unit economics don't make sense.
But then they look back and they say, well, on average our
customers stay on for 24 months.
Yeah.
So we're making $480.
Mm.
And those customers over the lifetime of the, of the customer, so they
can spend $120 to acquire one.
Mm-hmm.
And Netflix has got a different disadvantage or a different advantage.
Right.
I'm sure they're not spending that much.
But you could look at that for brands like Dollar Shave Club or HelloFresh.
Right.
Brands like HelloFresh have a huge, they're probably, their first
month churn is probably like 80%.
That's really high.
Yeah.
It is.
The reason for their success is HelloFresh is looking to build
a habit within their consumer.
Mm-hmm.
You're either gonna like the idea of cooking it or you're not, and if you like
it and it becomes part of your lifestyle, you might be on for three, four years.
Mm-hmm.
And the ones that try it and after two weeks you're like, well,
like, I don't really wanna cook.
Yeah.
Just looked like it was fun, but it's not for me.
They're gonna cancel fast.
Yeah.
No, that's, that's fascinating.
So I, I.
The three to one, um, CAC to LTV ratio, um, for those, I mean, you have mentioned
it, but I just wanna be super clear for those listening to the show that
might not understand what CAC or LTV is.
Sure.
Just, just explain that.
Yeah, so LTV is lifetime value of the customer.
So how much am I going to make on the customer over the lifetime
of them being a customer of mine?
Mm-hmm.
And CAC is the amount of money I paid to acquire the customer.
I can give a really easy example if you want me to.
That could clarify it for the audience.
Yeah.
You know, this is a simple example.
Let's say that I'm a dentist, I have a dental office, uh, in my city.
Typically people that go to the dentist, they don't switch their dentist unless
they move or some sorts where the dentist really screws their teeth up.
But if I spent $10,000 on TV ads and it got me 10 customers, well
then I know I spent a thousand dollars to acquire each customer.
Yeah, yeah.
But I know through data that over the span of that patient,
between billing, fillings, crowns, Dentures, whatever it might be.
I make $10,000 on a, on a new patient every time I get one.
Mm-hmm.
Well then I'm in a 10 to one ratio.
Yeah.
I'm spending a thousand acquirement.
I'm gonna make 10 grand on them over the lifetime of the
customer being a patient of mine.
Yeah.
Those are great unit economics.
If I knew that was the case, I would spend a million dollars on tv ads.
Right.
Well, you'd, I suppose the, the question then becomes, when you look at those
numbers and you are, and you are calculating this, obviously you've gotta
understand your, your lifetime value.
You've gotta understand the customer acquisition costs.
Um, and I suppose the, the other metric here is how much cash can
I sustain before I get it back?
So what, what, so you know, if, if Netflix is an example where it's a year
before they're profitable, you the, you need to have that year's cash flow Yep.
Or the ability to pay cash for that year before you start to see
profit at the other end, right?
Correct.
And you gotta keep the engagement going, right?
You might, your data might show that on average they say for 12 months,
but if I don't consistently engage the customer or I start to make mistakes,
my LTV is gonna start to drop.
Right.
It could go from 12 months to 10 months, or 10 months to 8 months,
have one bad month of a product.
Let Netflix go down for two days, watch all the customers cancel.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
So it doesn't just mean, oh, we, ah, we got the customer there
for sure staying for 12 months.
We still have to build a product or service we're offering that's
going to keep the customer engaged.
Mm-hmm.
So, and, and again, you need to be able to bankroll that, right?
So assume Correct.
So,
So if I, if I'm, um, if I'm building this subscription model,
how do I, how do I build that engagement then with the client?
So obviously keeping them engaged, keeping them paying, uh, well, I mean, they're
not paying every month, but then keeping them from stopping to pay every month
is probably a better way of putting it.
How do I, how do I keep that engagement going?
Uh, being proactive.
So you don't wanna be reactive.
Mm-hmm.
You don't wanna wait to find out why they might be canceling
after they've already canceled.
So the biggest thing that I'm a proponent of is proactive retention.
That means consistently surveying my customers, identifying and making sure
that they're happy and satisfied with the service or product that I'm offering.
Mm-hmm.
Which may re may mean that I'm going to send them an email and I'm gonna
ask 'em a question very early on.
Like, one of the things that I like to do.
Is like, have three smiley faces on an email.
Okay.
On the left is a smiley face.
I'm happy.
And the middle is like the meh face.
Like I'm like, I'm medium, I'm okay.
It's a sad face.
So how happy are you with my product or service?
If they click the happy face, well lemme start here.
If they click the sad face or the medium face, immediate
trigger to customer service.
Yep.
Versus not happy.
We find out why, but it's an immediate trigger to customer service, and now our
customer service team is getting ahead.
Mm-hmm.
They're reaching out to that customer for their thinking about canceling.
If they click the happy face, then I'm sending 'em to one of the social
channels with like a pre-made post.
It's like, Hey, let everybody know how happy you are with our product or service.
That's a big part of it.
It's also being very intelligent about who you are targeting.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
If you acquire a thousand customers, but 90% of 'em are the wrong customer,
then they're gonna be unhappy when they get their product or service.
They're gonna cancel quickly and then staying engaged with them is
consistently communicating with them through all channels, making it easy
to have them be able to contact you, making sure that you're staying on
top of social, responding to comments, being a, having a chat feature on
your website, making the customer feel like as easy as it was for them to
sign up, it's just as easy to cancel.
And that you're providing a product or service that's going to keep them engaged.
I think one of the things that's really important to understand is, let's say
that I have a s a beauty subscription.
Mm-hmm.
Two, three years ago, my competition was other beauty
subscriptions, but now it's not.
Now you're competing against every other subscription service because
you're competing for share of wallet.
I had a, are you familiar with Truebill, the app and manages your subscriptions?
No, it's called Rocket Money now.
Really large brand.
It got acquired for a billion dollars.
Me and the CEO did a keynote together, and one of the data
points that he had identified was that in years past, customers were
adding two or three subscriptions.
If they added two or three subscriptions, they would cancel one.
Okay.
But now those charts have crossed, meaning if a customer adds a
subscription, they're going to cancel one.
That means every subscription is competing for share of wallet.
That means Netflix is competing with HelloFresh because the consumer is
thinking about, well, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna add a $25 a month subscription,
I need to cancel one of them.
And you don't wanna be the one that gets canceled.
That's really interesting.
So actually as an e-commerce business and the beauty subscription, the,
you are competing with Netflix, um, you're competing with HelloFresh.
So does that mean, and I, and I'm, I'm li I, I fully appreciate what
you're saying, Chris, and I'm going Well, that makes a lot of sense.
Cause I'm thinking back through me, right?
I'm like, well, I canceled that subscription to that and I've canceled
that and I've taken that one on there.
And I, um, especially with cost of Living crisis, and you can see.
This sort of having a big effect on things certainly here in the uk I dunno
what it's like in the states as much, but here in the UK it's unbelievable.
Um, and so I, I get that.
So I, I, I'm then sitting here thinking, well, if I was starting
out either an e-commerce or I was already established an e-commerce and
thinking about starting a subscription business, I'm now, uh, as we would
say in the uk, quietly cacking myself.
Um, cacking, pooping is, is the, uh, translation, not cost of acquisition.
It's a bit of a slang term, uh, but works well here because I'm thinking, well,
not only if I wanna start a subscription service in a beauty business, not only
am I now competing with Beauty Box, what Chris is telling me is actually
I'm now competing with Netflix.
How in the hell am I gonna do this in a way that's gonna work, right?
Hey, you're gonna, yeah.
How you're gonna do it is by targeting the right customers and
making sure that you're getting the attention of the ones that'll want
your product or service, right?
Mm-hmm.
I think that one of the biggest mistake marketers make is that they
target a large, large audience.
They don't really get into the nitty gritty and understand the customer
profile, the ones that really, really like their product, and then look at that data
in the future to make better marketing decisions on your product or service.
Everybody has needs and wants.
And so for example, if you've got a beauty subscription, you're more than
likely targeting the female demographic.
Well mm-hmm.
The female demographic's not gonna stop with the beauty.
Right.
So make sure that if, when they're going to select one that they need,
that you're the one that they select.
Mm-hmm.
And you shouldn't be surprised if they would wanna cancel their Netflix
subscription for your beauty subscription.
You're, you're offering two different products or services.
You know?
Yeah, I do.
And actually I think it's quite a sobering thing, isn't it?
In some respects, but in other, in other respects, it's forcing you to
think about, Your product offering, cuz before in 2015, 2016, I could just put
anything out on a subscription model.
And people go, that's kind of cool, that's kind of new niche.
Cool, I'll take that.
Now I can't do that because they're deciding whether or not my
product is, is worth keeping over keeping their Netflix subscription.
So that's gonna, that's an opportunity in a lot of ways, but it's gonna
force you to think outside the box and it's gonna force you to, to offer
something of value to your well chosen target audience, I'm guessing, right?
You can absolutely provide more value than Netflix.
That should be the title of this this week's show.
You can you provide more value than Netflix?
Okay.
Uh, it, it's, it's interesting.
Is it?
So why, why do you say that?
So, um, uh, if I can put it this way, so carefree, so, so assured.
Yeah.
Um.
I say that so assured because we all have things that we truly are passionate about.
For example, like I've got a dog, right?
I love my dog to death.
Mm-hmm.
If you ask me to pick between BarkBox and Netflix, I'm picking BarkBox.
Okay?
Right.
We've all got passions and things that we want and need.
And you know what?
Netflix has got a lot of competition when it comes down to just like the
consumer entertainment and consumer attention, there's more eyeballs glued
on TikTok than they are on Netflix.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
And you know, I can watch a lot of things on YouTube.
I can watch Disney Plus.
I mean, I personally only watch Net.
I used to only watch Netflix for Stranger Things in Ozark.
I just, they're just lucky that I'm one of the customers that doesn't cancel
when I'm not, I'm not using Netflix, so I just keep paying the bill every month.
Right.
But yeah, if I had to choose, if, if I was, if I had to start watching
what I was purchasing Netflix.
Netflix is near the top of the list of getting cancelled.
It might be at the top right now.
I don't even, I don't know the last time I turned it on.
Right.
Like I really haven't turned it on in a minute, so, so, mm-hmm.
I think that you, I think that just, it, it, it may seem like
it's a big competition cuz of what the name is, but what's the true
product and service it's offering?
Mm-hmm.
The only way Netflix wins is by its original series.
Netflix will never win unless it comes out with content that
you can only watch on Netflix.
Yeah.
Well, 99% of its content is everywhere else too.
It's not just on Netflix, it's on Amazon, it's on Disney, it's on YouTube there.
There's tons of sites that have those same movies for free.
Yeah, there's just certain shows you can't get anywhere else but Netflix, which is
what keeps people signed up for Netflix.
Yeah.
Very powerful stuff.
And I, I, I, I like, I like the way you're saying it actually, and I, I'm
thinking to myself, yeah, that's true.
I, I only stay subscribed to Netflix.
Not cause I watch it, but I know my kids do.
Um, and my, you know, I know my, my boys at university wouldn't,
they just, they just haven't got the money to pay for Netflix.
So I'm kinda like, well, well, dad will pay for it, of
course, typically then, right.
And I, I, Chris, I don't know if you know the answer this or whether it's in
fact a, a stupid question to ask in a lot of ways, but how many subscriptions
does a typical consumer have these days?
You know, don't quote me on this, but I think it was like 15 or 16.
When you really think about, it's funny, uh, everybody sits and
thinks I don't have that many.
Then you start to think about the apps Yeah.
On your phone.
And then you start thinking about the streaming services you have and you
quickly realize it gets to 10 fast.
Mm-hmm.
It gets to 10 really fast.
I might have like 20, 20.
I don't even know.
Like I, I, I have so many and you know, what's the beautiful thing about that?
They can all be canceled tomorrow.
Right.
That's what's changed the landscape of e-commerce.
Mm.
And actually, yeah, you're right.
That, uh, you know, and I've seen a lot of the subscription businesses
now making it easy to pause and to restart just because they're obviously
getting, a lot of people do this.
One of the things that I'm listening to you talk, one of the things that I've
noticed, for example, with Netflix, um, and, and this, I suppose I'm thinking
about my own subscription services that we sell on, on, on our sites,
but one of the things that strikes me as you are talking is Netflix have
started certainly here in the uk.
I imagine it's the same most of the way around the world, they've started to.
Um, bundle their subscription with other services.
So, uh, we have a, we have a, a subscription service over
here called Sky Sports, right?
So if you wanna watch sports, you pretty much have to
subscribe to the sports Channel.
And it's like, the way they do it is you subscribe to Sky Sports,
but if you get this bundle, you get Sky Sports, you get Netflix,
you get this, you get that, and so.
Rather than me feeling like I've, I'm paying for 10 subscriptions, I'm, I'm
in effect paying for one slightly more than what I would've paid for the, the
one without the 10, if that makes sense.
So there's this, I guess there's this psychological factor of
sort of boosting up that way.
Um, is that a strategy people are using a lot now?
Yeah.
I mean, they, they're doing that as like a defense mechanism
to keep the customer, right?
Mm-hmm.
Because, Netflix was like the first streaming service and now there's 10,
20, I don't even know how many, right?
Mm-hmm.
So they're doing that to compete to provide more value.
Right.
So subscriptions provide one of three things, access, value, or convenience.
By com by merging different streaming services.
You just did two of them.
You just nailed two of the three reasons why somebody would sign up for something.
There's value and access.
And really in some respects, convenience, cuz it's great to your tv.
But yeah, I'm saying the true value, like they're saying, we're giving
you access to shows and movies that you can't get anywhere else.
And by the way, we're giving you value cuz we just teamed up with a
couple of their streaming services and put it all together in one bundle.
Yeah, no, that's fair play.
And so, and, and I like this and I suppose, and I, I'm thinking this
through that I, I, I dunno where I'm going with this Chris other than
the fact that I'm just thinking it through, uh, as you are chatting.
Actually, it becomes harder to cancel Netflix.
So I can't, because Netflix is now bundled with my sports channel.
Yes, I can't, if I cancel Netflix, I've gotta cancel my sports channel.
Or if I cancel my sports channel, I've gotta cancel Netflix.
Right?
And so this is where you're talking about value.
I've, I've increased value massively.
So it makes, makes it harder to cancel that one particular bit over there.
You know, I, I don't care with my sports channel, I get the Discovery Channel.
I never watch it.
I don't care.
But, you know, I, I can't cancel that.
But it makes no difference, you know?
Um, so Chris, I have so many questions, right?
Uh, if you, uh, if you, um, if you are starting again the gentleman's box, right?
Um, you started that, uh, again here, 2023, and I'm curious,
what would you do differently?
Uh, how, you know, what, what would that subscription business look like now?
If I was starting the Gentleman's box?
Oh, I wouldn't start the gentleman's box now, but if I was starting a
new subscription, what would I do?
Mm-hmm.
If I was starting a new subscription right now, what would I do?
That's a great question.
No one's asked me that in a while.
Um, I would probably build a product that was a depleting product, so something that
every month or every quarter depleted, meaning they had to get more of it.
Um, what industry would I go into?
Wow.
I would either do that or I would do something that was exclusive.
Meaning that you couldn't get it anywhere else.
There was limited quantity.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
So limited supply would sell out.
I'd build demand and hype around it.
I'd use influencers to build demand and hype around it.
I would try to come up with a product or offering that was unique, exclusive
in-demand, hard to get waiting list.
On a subscription and membership to the point where people were like dying
to be one of the members, and I'd make those members feel super exclusive.
It'd be almost like VIP, it'd be like, oh, you're part of this subscription
and you get this shirt, or whatever it might be, this piece of art.
Whatever the case may be.
Yeah.
I think that exclusivity is really a big part of a big thing right now.
Exclusivity.
Uniqueness.
Products that are, that are in demand, right?
Like you look at like little things like the prime drink
that Logan Paul came out with.
Yeah.
The fact that he sold out and because of who he is, people were
selling them like $20 a bottle.
Oh, it's crazy.
Yeah, it was crazy.
What happens now if anybody that knows that drink happens to see one
available in a store, they snatch it up.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Why?
Cause of the demand.
Yeah.
Right.
So I, that's how I would build, I'd build something around that super exclusive,
um, hard to get, and I would, I would channel some high end influencers and
make sure that they had 'em mm-hmm.
And get them to, you know, push that product.
Yeah.
That's really interesting.
And it's sellout.
I like the idea of exclusivity.
I mean, you're right.
I remember being at Costco a few weeks ago.
A lady came up to me and she said, listen, I wanna buy two boxes of these drinks.
But Costco was limiting it to just one because the demand was so high.
Can you buy this for me and I will give you the cash, uh, here and now.
And I'm like, of course I don't care.
Just put it on the conveyor.
It's not a problem.
Right.
But it.
I, I dunno how much you know about England, Chris, but we don't do
things like that in England because, you know, it's, it's not very
British to ask somebody to do stuff.
So the fact that she was willing to do that Yeah, kind.
I was like, what is this that we're buy, I'm like, is this cocaine?
I don't know.
And so, yeah.
And so I just found it fascinating and that exclusivity,
I, I get the value of that.
So let me ask you a question, right?
Going back to the beauty website.
Someone has a beauty website, they're online, they're
selling all kinds of products.
Um, and if I go back to the start, you know, your premise at the start was you
should have a subscription business.
Um, Does the beauty company start a subscription business?
Is my first question.
And my second question is, if I started a beauty company today,
should I be subscription only?
I'm curious to un understand how you think the sort of the, the
you know, you can buy it normally.
Yeah.
Or you can buy it through a subscription model thing.
Yeah.
You know, is that, is that too weak?
I'm, I'm kind of curious as to your thinking on that.
It's funny, you know, me as an entrepreneur, I'm like, I'm like the worst
guy that you want to tell an idea to.
Cuz like, I poke a hole in everything and I'm like, like I
have a friend that jokes with me.
He's like, I'm not even gonna tell you my idea because you're just
gonna like piss on it, you know?
But I'm, I'm looking out for you.
So one, I'm like, Everything.
Like, see, like, you know, this like, ideas are so cheap, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's all about like, how are we gonna execute on this product?
What's the go-to-market strategy?
So I get pitched, I'm gonna get your answer to this question, by the way.
Mm-hmm.
So I get, I get pitched ideas once a week probably, and, um, I'm trying
to limit that because it's, it's a big time waster, but, um, everything
comes, I care less about the idea and I care more about the strategy of
getting the attention of the audience.
You could have.
A wildly insane idea, but there could be this like niche group of individuals
that really love it and like mm-hmm.
You can build a real business around it.
Like, I, that's, that's great.
Like, I wanna know what the strategy's gonna be.
How are we gonna go to market?
How are we get the attention to consumers?
It's not field of dreams.
It's not like if you build a baseball field in your backyard, all these people
are gonna show up and play baseball.
That's not how, how e-commerce works.
If I have the right plan, I have the right product.
And I'm building a new beauty subscription.
I'm absolutely building subscription first, because typically beauty
products are depleting, they're gonna need it month over month.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't want them to get their facial cleanser anywhere else or
their eyeliner anywhere else, or their lip gloss anywhere else.
And if I'm gonna get super aggressive and I'm brand new, I'm gonna say
try my product for free potentially.
Or samples of it.
Or I'm gonna, uh, you know, either my marketing strategy's gotta be that.
If you think about beauty products in general, either they've gotta use it
or somebody they know or influences them's gotta tell 'em to use it.
Yeah.
There's no other way.
Right.
If I'm selling a t-shirt, I could look at the design and say, oh, I like
this, this design, I'm gonna buy it cause I'm gonna like the way it looks.
Yeah.
I don't need to feel it or touch it.
With beauty, I need to u the, the, the.
Audience needs to use the product to see that it works.
So now I'm trying to get the product in their hands, whether that's give it to
them for free, let them pay shipping and handling only, and maybe it covers my
cost and I'm getting 'em on a subscription so that they know that when it comes the
next month, they're going to have it again and that's when they're gonna get billed.
And yeah, there might be high churn, but if it's a net zero on
the cost, like great, like it's a low cost marketing tool, um,
that's probably how I'm doing it.
And that, and with beauty, I'm absolutely building a subscription.
I, I'm subscription first in nearly everything.
I don't know that anybody would convince me to build.
I don't think that there's a lot of industries where subscriptions don't work.
Maybe in some medical fields, maybe.
Yeah.
So you're subscription, you're subscription first, but does that mean
on your new beauty business, you're subscription only or can subscription work
alongside traditional typical e-commerce?
It work.
It can work, but I'm subscription only and I.
I mean, may be because I'm biased, but the value of the customer on a subscription
is way higher than the one-off purchase.
Yeah, that's really fascinating.
That's really, there's no, there's no comparison.
Yeah.
So you're building this beauty business subscription only and it's like, add
these products to your basket, um, and we're gonna get them out to you every
month or whatever the frequency is.
Uh, I'm kind of curious actually.
Uh, I dunno if anyone's done the study, cuz nothing's springing to my mind.
Is, If you took a subscription only model and then added traditional
e-commerce to it, whether the total revenue of that site falls, um,
yeah, Does it dilute it too much?
You know?
Yeah.
I've seen it all the time.
I hate one time purchase and brands that add that element are either
trying to move old inventory, right.
So they, they made some inventory mistakes.
Mm-hmm.
There's so many better ways to do it than.
If you're gonna pay for the customer to come to the site, let's sell them
the product that's gonna get us the most conversion, the most value.
That's gonna be on a subscription over a one time, every single time.
Yeah.
No, that's really powerful.
There's, and there's a, I, I'm, I'm really tempted actually
to do some, I've not done it.
Uh, but you, you've inspired me to go away and do some split tests with our ads.
So run people to subscription only pages versus running people to just buy pages.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
So the same product, one's on subscription, one's on buy now.
What are you selling?
What's the product?
Uh, I would do this with supplements.
Um, so we have a supplement business, and this is the one that I'm thinking of.
Um, like a vitamin supplement or like a, yeah, yeah.
Oh gosh.
I don't even, you don't even need to test it.
Well, no, I'm, cause I wanna see the results.
You'd think that I'm joking with you, but Yeah, yeah.
No, there's, there's like, no, there's like, there is not a doubt in my mind
like, email me in three months and I'll, there's not a doubt in my mind
you are gonna see way higher value on the, on the subscription side.
It's, it's depleting.
I need the supplements quarterly and monthly.
Like, there is not a doubt in my mind that the, yeah, one
time purchase should be gone.
Okay.
And you know what?
You should, you should be at Sub Summit this year.
You'll even see more about that.
Well, let's talk about that actually.
Um, uh, because I, I, I, when you were saying, I mean, subsummit's in
Dallas, and I'm, I'm actually thinking to myself, I'm tempted to go here.
I've got some good friends in Dallas.
I'm gonna go stay with them and, and, and, uh, and come over.
Um, let's talk about subsummit then, because, um, we'll just tell the folks
what it, what it actually is, and then I've got some questions about it.
Yeah, so it's the largest event in the world for all consumer subscriptions.
We bring together brands like Netflix and HelloFresh and BarkBox to your
mid-level Hunt a killer, FabFitFun, battle box to your startup and growth phase.
It's three days long.
There's a huge expo hall with solution providers.
There's multiple track rooms.
We've got speakers from the NBA, uh, Harry's Razor, Time Magazine.
There's like a panel I think with time, uh, New York Times and Wall
Street Journal talking about how to start up and grow your subscription.
Mm-hmm.
There's three, there's three tracks.
So there's like a startup track, there's a mid growth track, and
there's an enterprise track.
Mm-hmm.
We, we, we built this event to help.
Entrepreneurs and subscription-based businesses build better
subscription-based companies.
Tons of networking.
There's a huge award ceremony on day two with a red carpet.
It's tons of fun, fake paparazzi screaming people's names.
It's it's 15th category, um, huge exhibit hall with all your solution
providers from fulfillment to payment, processing the CRMs to Shopify plugins
to three, three days of packed tracks with leaders within subscriptions.
How to grow and build it, how to retain customers, how to go international.
Mm-hmm.
How do you consistently engage with the consumer and 2000 attendees.
It's, it's a lot of fun and if you're in e-commerce, you should be at subsummit.
If you're in subscriptions, you should be at subunit.
Yeah, totally.
So, uh, just to circle back on something that you said there,
there are three different tracks.
So if I'm just new in e-commerce, go to subsummit, there's
gonna be something of value.
If I'm Netflix, go to subsummit because there's gonna be something of value
and then everyone in between you cover.
Right?
100%.
Awesome.
So how long has this, uh, event been going?
We had our first event in 2016.
We had like 200 attendees.
I always joke, uh, Matt, it felt like the first event felt like I was in high
school and I was throwing a party and I didn't know if anybody'd show up.
I kinda nervous energy.
No, totally.
You're sitting there like waiting by registration.
Like one person got off and then like two more got off the elevator.
Oh my gosh.
And then it was like 200 people and, um, It, it was, it worked well.
Like we couldn't believe it.
Mm-hmm.
And then fast forward, three years later, we're in New Orleans with 1100 attendees.
Wow.
And then Covid hit, right.
So we, we stalled for two years, but this past May, we were in Orlando, 1300
attendees, DoorDash, Netflix, battle Box, Hunt a Killer, like they're all there.
Mm-hmm.
And now we're gonna be in Dallas this year, 2000 attendees more than likely,
The best speaker lineup we've ever had.
It's like you can check out the speakers on subsummit.com, but
you know, Quotery is speaking.
FabFitFun is speaking.
Harry's Razors is speaking, the NBA is speaking.
Mm-hmm.
It's wild.
We've never had this kind of lineup ever.
Okay, well I'm excited for it.
I'm excited.
So, uh, do join, uh, is it sub Sumit?
I'll be there.
Come and say hi.
You know, we maybe do a little, uh, EP hookup.
Um, we have a little podcast stage there too, Matt, so maybe we can
do a little podcast at the event.
That would be awesome.
That would be really quite fun.
Do you know what would be cool is like, you and I could potentially do something
live, but you might be able to grab some other attendees, entrepreneurs
and pull 'em on stage with you.
We can talk about that after, but there's something cool.
Ah, sounds great.
Yeah, yeah.
No, that sounds awesome.
I'm up for something like that.
Uh, where do people go?
Um, I, I know the URLs on the screen, uh, Chris, but most
people listen on the audio.
Just tell everybody how to find out more information about Sub Summit.
Yeah, just go to subsummit.com and right on there is everything about the event.
Yeah, it's really easy.
It, you know, there's, there's all this information about the venue,
the different tracks, the agenda, the speakers, the sponsors, it's all on there.
And if you are a brand that does more than $500,000 a year in
revenue, we actually have what's called the hosted buyer program.
Where you can come to the event for free and get travel reimbursement.
You have to take, you have to take six, 10 minute one-on-one
meetings with solution providers.
Mm-hmm.
But we did that.
It's a really good way for brands to get to the event that are on a budget.
It's a great way for solution providers, so like if you're in
fulfillment or payment processing or marketing for you to meet those brands.
Mm-hmm.
We're gonna cultivate more than 1500 one-on-one meetings
at the event this year now.
Fantastic.
I like that.
That's a really clever, I'm not gonna, I, I don't wanna blow smoke
here, Chris, but I like that.
I like that.
You know, if you, uh, as an idea.
Um, very clever.
Very clever.
Especially if they play, uh, first class from the uk.
I'm there.
No,
only 750 you get, you know, but
that's really funny.
So listen, um, Chris, let me ask you my final question.
Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm starting to ask everybody now, and it's, it's a bit
off topic, uh, from the subscription.
Um, but as you know, this show's sponsored by, uh, cohort, right?
E-commerce cohort, which is kinda like, it's a training, mentorship
program, learning kind of program.
It's awesome.
Um, it's actually a membership, funnily enough.
Uh, and in fact, um, let me ask you this question cuz I'm kind of curious.
Cohort's a membership and I was listening to, I dunno if you've
come across the guy's name, Stu McLaren, who is like big into.
Online memberships, you know, in terms of if you wanna do like an online membership,
like a mastermind, he's a guy that you would listen to a mentor in that space.
And I saw a, a post on him on, uh, on Instagram the other day saying
The best way to sell a membership is off the back of a course.
So he's like, you sell your course.
And then off the back of that, you have your membership because the
course delivers insane value and it gives a reason for people to join.
And he said, when you do it this way, you get a, a better outcome.
I thought that was really interesting.
Uh, off the back of that membership.
Anyway, um, cohort is this kind of membership group,
so I wanna imagine, right?
Uh, it's not in Dallas, it's probably in London.
We've got a room full of cohorts.
Uh, you've just delivered your keynote speech on, on subscriptions and told
everybody all the secrets they need to know to, to do it super well.
At the end of it, as they're giving you your sort of standing ovation, um, crazy,
uh, I'm curious who you sort of, you stand up and you say, well, I'm here and
I'd just like to thank dot, dot, dot.
Um, who's had a big influence on you?
Who do you thank?
Uh, and, and, why?
Who do I thank for helping me get to where I am now?
Yeah.
Um, my two business partners, Paul and John, Paul Chambers
and John Hodge for sure.
Mm-hmm.
It's a shame your name's not Ringo, I'm not gonna lie.
Paul John and Ringo.
Yeah.
Anyway, a different, a different group of people.
You know.
Yeah, probably them.
I never really had mentors growing up.
Um, I listened to a lot of, like, I get influenced by other entrepreneurs, right?
Mm-hmm.
And that's where I get my inspiration.
But those two guys for sure, you know.
Yeah.
That's cool.
That's awesome.
It's good that actually you've had a partnership that's worked,
you know, cuz that's actually quite an unusual thing these days.
And so, uh, long may that continue.
Um, Chris, listen, it's been a blast.
If people want to get in touch with you, I mean we've, we've talked about
subsumit, but if they wanna get ahold of you, Uh, what's the best way to do that?
How do people connect?
Yeah, real easy.
Actually.
Either connect with me on LinkedIn or just send me an email.
Chris@subsummit.com.
I'll get that email.
I'm in, I'm inbox zero, so Oh wow.
I'm doing harder.
It's getting harder and harder.
Yeah.
Um, but, um, you know, 48 hours, I'll more than likely reply.
Yes.
I always throw a funny, man, you'll love this.
If there's more than like four sentences in the email, the likelihood of me
reading it right away is like slim to zero, and it might be a month.
So I like, I, I have a short attention span.
Like, it's funny, like a long paragraph email will come in and like my mind
will be like, Chris, I'm gonna read it.
Don't worry.
Like I'm not reading that long email.
We don't have enough time in the day, but, um, make it short and
sweet and you'll get my attention.
Yeah, less than four sentences.
And I, I'm with you.
And I've te I mean we've tested this with marketing emails.
You know, the, the shorter the email usually the better it pulls because,
but the shorter the email, you have to focus on selling the click.
Right?
In e-commerce, we talk about sell the click, not the product.
Um, and um, I think it's true in any kind of, uh, outreach email.
So, and I'm with you, I'm with, I just, I don't read anything that's long.
I just, I just, I can't.
I just don't care.
Just put it into chat gpt and say, just tell me what it is that they want.
Yes, so LinkedIn or email, we'll of course link to Chris' info in
the show notes as well, which you can get along for free with the
transcript at ecommercepodcast.net.
Or it will be winging its way to your inbox if you've
signed up to our newsletter.
Chris, listen.
Uh, honestly man, real treat, really appreciated, um, your insight and energy
today and love what you guys are doing.
Uh, yeah, and hopefully we get to meet at Sub Summit.
Looking forward to it.
And, um, thank you.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Of course.
Thank you for having me.
Uh, really grateful to be on.
Awesome.
So there you have it.
What a great conversation.
Huge thanks again to Chris for joining me today.
Also, a huge shout out to today's show sponsor the ecommerce cohort.
Remember to check out their, uh, check out their membership ecommercecohort.com.
They've also got a free training at ecommercecycles.com.
You might want to check out.
Uh, be sure to follow the e-commerce podcast wherever you get your podcast
from because we've got yet more great conversations lined up and I
don't want you to miss any of them.
Uh, and so yes, before I wrap up today's episode, let me just take
a, a wee moment here, uh, dear listener, and ask you if you want to
be part of the e-commerce podcast.
If you're an e-commerce entrepreneur or expert, like
to share your insights with us.
Uh, and then what we'd love to hear from you.
Or if you know someone who would make a great guest, please send them our way.
Just head over to the website, ecommercepodcast.net, uh,
and get in touch with us.
I can't promise we will, uh, get everybody on the show.
We have a, we do have a big waiting list, but we would love to hear from you.
Uh, so do get in touch.
We are always looking for fresh perspectives and new ideas.
So don't be shy.
Whether you're just starting out and have year or you have years of experience
under your belt, uh, do get in touch.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Yes, we do.
And in case no one has told you yet today, you are awesome.
Yes, you are.
Created awesome.
It's just a burden you have to bear.
Chris has to bear it.
I have to bear it.
You've gotta bear it as well.
Created awesome.
Uh, the e-Commerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media.
You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast
app and the team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Josh
Catchpole, Estella Robin and Tim Johnson.
Our theme song was written by Josh Edmundson, and as I mentioned,
if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, head over to
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That's it from me.
That's it from Chris.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.
I'll see you next time.
Bye for now.