1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,800 And the way that these markets work is it's true market 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,320 dynamics. In order to buy a yes 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,720 contract, there must be a seller of a no contract. 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,800 There must be a buyer of a no contract. Sorry, try that again. 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,040 For every yes, there's someone that's taking the no. And so 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,920 that's where it gets interesting for these quantitative hedge funds, is their market making 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,680 on bad bets. This is Data Driven today. Prediction 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,240 markets, KPI trading, and the new wild west of retail 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:30,800 finance. 10 00:00:45,740 --> 00:00:49,500 Hello and welcome back to Data Driven, the podcast where we explore the emerging 11 00:00:49,500 --> 00:00:53,340 industry of AI, data science, and of course, data engineering, which is really 12 00:00:53,420 --> 00:00:55,900 the underlying infrastructure to it all. However, 13 00:00:57,020 --> 00:01:00,620 my most favorite data engineer in the world, Andy Leonard, is not here today, but. 14 00:01:00,770 --> 00:01:04,530 But my most curious favorite person in the world is here today. And 15 00:01:04,530 --> 00:01:07,650 I mean that curious like in a good way. Not like curious like strange. 16 00:01:08,450 --> 00:01:12,250 This kind of our tagline for Impact Quantum, our sister podcast, 17 00:01:12,250 --> 00:01:15,570 which is doing really well. So if you're not subscribed to that, check it out. 18 00:01:15,570 --> 00:01:19,410 We talk about quantum computing and in a way that's not scary, at least 19 00:01:19,410 --> 00:01:23,090 for most normal mortals. So thanks for joining me 20 00:01:23,090 --> 00:01:26,930 today, Candace. Andy couldn't make it. My pleasure, my pleasure, Frank. 21 00:01:27,250 --> 00:01:31,010 Today we're talking to Andrew Levos, who is a SVP 22 00:01:31,090 --> 00:01:34,670 of data licensing at Benzinga, not 23 00:01:34,670 --> 00:01:38,430 Buzzinga. And welcome to 24 00:01:38,430 --> 00:01:41,910 the show, Andrew. Thank you for having me. Cool, cool. 25 00:01:42,310 --> 00:01:45,830 So I'll have to keep in mind Mercedes 26 00:01:45,830 --> 00:01:49,550 Benz, when I say your company's name and the big bang theory kind of 27 00:01:49,550 --> 00:01:51,590 all at once. Right? Kind of like mash it up. 28 00:01:53,030 --> 00:01:56,590 So you're coming to us from sunny 29 00:01:56,590 --> 00:02:00,330 Miami and you work at a financial, I 30 00:02:00,330 --> 00:02:03,170 would say a fintech company. Is that a good way to say it? Kind of 31 00:02:03,170 --> 00:02:06,770 fintechy or fintech supplier? Fintech, yeah, fintech 32 00:02:06,770 --> 00:02:10,090 vendor, financial media company. Tow both lines. 33 00:02:10,730 --> 00:02:14,570 Right. Which Miami is now like, no pun intended, like one of 34 00:02:14,570 --> 00:02:18,370 the hot places for it. Right. There's obviously Wall street, there's y' all 35 00:02:18,370 --> 00:02:20,810 street they have in Dallas, I heard on Bloomberg the other day. 36 00:02:21,930 --> 00:02:25,610 But obviously Miami's become a focal point for a lot of financial 37 00:02:25,690 --> 00:02:29,500 services. So what exactly does Benzinga do? And 38 00:02:29,500 --> 00:02:33,060 kind of like, how'd you end up there? Yeah, so 39 00:02:33,060 --> 00:02:36,060 Benzinga, we started as a financial media company 40 00:02:36,940 --> 00:02:40,700 strictly the thesis by our founder was 41 00:02:40,700 --> 00:02:44,340 that Wall street had a massive edge 42 00:02:44,340 --> 00:02:48,100 on Main street in terms of information. That thesis still 43 00:02:48,100 --> 00:02:51,820 lives true today, but we're trying to democratize it. Many companies 44 00:02:51,980 --> 00:02:54,940 have joined the mission in 2009, 45 00:02:55,740 --> 00:02:58,540 the High Flying tech stocks that we all love and know today 46 00:02:59,340 --> 00:03:02,940 were impossible to read or understand unless you had a Bloomberg 47 00:03:02,940 --> 00:03:06,780 terminal or another institutional resource. And so our founders set out 48 00:03:06,780 --> 00:03:10,540 to cover these stocks in a way that was understandable by everyone. 49 00:03:10,940 --> 00:03:14,500 Right. You didn't have to have a financial background, you didn't have to have a 50 00:03:14,500 --> 00:03:16,460 finance degree to invest. 51 00:03:18,380 --> 00:03:22,220 That was his thesis and it rang true. It got very popular very fast. 52 00:03:22,780 --> 00:03:25,980 And then in 2011, thinkorswim 53 00:03:26,460 --> 00:03:30,300 joined the democratization of finance mission and 54 00:03:31,020 --> 00:03:34,860 wanted the news piped directly into their platform for their retail users. 55 00:03:35,100 --> 00:03:38,700 We built an API, we became a vendor at that time. And then we 56 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:42,540 slowly but surely realized that a lot of the data that we were producing and 57 00:03:42,620 --> 00:03:46,300 aggregating was of value outside of just news. 58 00:03:46,620 --> 00:03:50,300 So we started delivering earnings calendars and dividends and analyst ratings 59 00:03:50,300 --> 00:03:53,820 and people would display it on their platform. You know, if you think about your 60 00:03:53,820 --> 00:03:57,220 401k provider or your self directed investing platform, 61 00:03:57,540 --> 00:04:01,100 a lot of the data that you see on the page for Apple is from 62 00:04:01,100 --> 00:04:04,780 Benzinga or one of our competitors. And so we've, we've kind of 63 00:04:04,780 --> 00:04:08,580 transitioned to being that we're still a breaking news outlet and that's what 64 00:04:08,580 --> 00:04:12,260 most people know us for. But we take the data and 65 00:04:12,260 --> 00:04:15,860 content that we produce and deliver it for wider 66 00:04:15,940 --> 00:04:18,340 use across fintechs, across the globe. 67 00:04:20,019 --> 00:04:23,859 Interesting. Which is obviously very crucial. And I don't think anyone who's not. I 68 00:04:23,859 --> 00:04:27,339 started my career in New York and on Wall street and things like that. 69 00:04:27,339 --> 00:04:31,099 Bloomberg terminals, at least in the 90s, early 90s, particularly before there 70 00:04:31,099 --> 00:04:34,779 was the Internet and all that, were very much status 71 00:04:34,779 --> 00:04:37,499 symbols I think like, you know, you knew somebody was a player if they had 72 00:04:37,499 --> 00:04:41,259 a corner office and a Bloomberg terminal, right. Or they had a, you know, 73 00:04:41,259 --> 00:04:45,030 they had a private office. But I think it was really 74 00:04:45,030 --> 00:04:48,710 Bloomberg that really kind of pioneered the whole notion of getting information to the 75 00:04:48,710 --> 00:04:51,870 people. And I wouldn't say they were certainly not the first 76 00:04:52,510 --> 00:04:55,870 like financial information services company, but 77 00:04:56,270 --> 00:04:59,670 they're the one I think everybody knows. I still watch Bloomberg, I have a TV 78 00:04:59,670 --> 00:05:02,470 over there. Lord knows I have a lot of monitors in my office, but One 79 00:05:02,470 --> 00:05:06,270 of the TVs is always tuned to Bloomberg because I always like 80 00:05:06,590 --> 00:05:08,990 kind of knowing what's on and things like that. 81 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,840 It seems like, it seems like I have a lot of 82 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:18,640 questions, right? So one of them is Bloomberg is probably 800 pound gorilla in this 83 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,280 space that you're in. How do you, as a startup 84 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:25,720 or smaller firm, how do you, how do you work around that? Right. And it's 85 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,480 not saying that you can't do that. Right. Because clearly you know, at one 86 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,760 point Microsoft was the 800 pound gorilla in the PC space, right? 87 00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:36,560 Apple still exists, shockingly. And as I think 88 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,840 I have a check today, haven't watched Bloomberg today, 89 00:05:40,660 --> 00:05:44,340 may have an evaluation greater than Microsoft. So clearly, you know, having an 800 90 00:05:44,340 --> 00:05:48,020 pound gorilla in a room doesn't mean anyone else can compete. 91 00:05:48,020 --> 00:05:51,620 It's just how do you, you obviously have to work with it like an ecosystem. 92 00:05:51,780 --> 00:05:55,060 So what's Beenzinga's kind of like angle on that? 93 00:05:55,700 --> 00:05:59,460 It's a great question and similar to the Apple Microsoft 94 00:05:59,620 --> 00:06:03,260 analogy, there's a niche in 95 00:06:03,260 --> 00:06:05,460 every industry that needs to be filled. And so 96 00:06:07,070 --> 00:06:10,910 just as an aside, there's this funny narrative going 97 00:06:10,910 --> 00:06:14,710 around with AI saying the Bloomberg killer, this platform is the 98 00:06:14,710 --> 00:06:18,550 Bloomberg killer. I never see a world, at least while I'm alive that that 99 00:06:18,550 --> 00:06:22,390 happens. Bloomberg is the first mover, it is the cream 100 00:06:22,390 --> 00:06:25,950 of the crop of the industry. But 101 00:06:26,350 --> 00:06:30,030 our news is in the Bloomberg terminal, so we coexist. 102 00:06:32,030 --> 00:06:35,630 Our news is quite popular to the investors in the 103 00:06:35,630 --> 00:06:38,830 Bloomberg terminal. It's not the deep 104 00:06:38,830 --> 00:06:42,270 analytical 50 page report 105 00:06:42,430 --> 00:06:46,150 news, it's 500 to a thousand words, it's what happened, why is it 106 00:06:46,150 --> 00:06:49,470 important what happens next? There's a demand for that across 107 00:06:49,550 --> 00:06:53,270 institutional investors and retail investors. There's a demand for the 50 108 00:06:53,270 --> 00:06:57,070 page reports too. That's where a lot of people generate their alpha. But there's a 109 00:06:57,070 --> 00:07:00,550 demand for breaking news news in an easy to consume way. 110 00:07:00,950 --> 00:07:04,670 And so we've, we've kind of made that our brand identity and 111 00:07:04,670 --> 00:07:08,350 build our teams around delivering that across our 112 00:07:08,350 --> 00:07:11,510 news and all of our data sets. And so 113 00:07:11,750 --> 00:07:15,430 Bloomberg is the 800 pound gorilla. I, I use the Bloomberg app 114 00:07:15,430 --> 00:07:19,230 for my news. I also use Benzinga for my news. I 115 00:07:19,230 --> 00:07:22,230 think that there's enough room in the space and with, I mean 116 00:07:22,950 --> 00:07:26,670 I, so I joined Benzinga in 2019 and then in 2020, 2021, the retail 117 00:07:26,670 --> 00:07:29,900 trading boom happened. Everyone wanted to invest on their own. 118 00:07:30,220 --> 00:07:33,420 Everyone wanted to build a trading app. There was a trading app for 119 00:07:35,420 --> 00:07:38,940 every region of the country, every demographic, 120 00:07:40,300 --> 00:07:43,620 every interest, every type of 121 00:07:43,620 --> 00:07:46,460 investing. It just exploded. And 122 00:07:47,740 --> 00:07:51,340 everyone has the ability to invest now in a way that is interesting to them 123 00:07:51,900 --> 00:07:55,350 and everyone needs content to power those platforms. 124 00:07:55,430 --> 00:07:58,910 So coexisting, in short, how do you build 125 00:07:58,910 --> 00:08:02,670 trust with an audience that's used to institutional authority like 126 00:08:02,670 --> 00:08:06,390 Bloomberg, but might be quietly craving something more 127 00:08:06,390 --> 00:08:08,950 human or interpretive? 128 00:08:10,310 --> 00:08:14,110 That was an uphill battle for many years. I, I think I 129 00:08:14,110 --> 00:08:17,870 got lucky. Joining in 2019, we had, we already had like 6 million monthly 130 00:08:17,870 --> 00:08:21,340 active or monthly. Monthly uniques at the time. 131 00:08:22,460 --> 00:08:25,820 But I, I'm sure the, the first million was the hardest, right? 132 00:08:28,060 --> 00:08:30,860 We, we kind of got first mover advantage in the retail 133 00:08:31,580 --> 00:08:35,420 news space covering stocks that didn't have a lot 134 00:08:35,420 --> 00:08:39,140 of traffic or a lot of insight in a way that was 135 00:08:39,140 --> 00:08:42,860 easy to understand. So you know, for example, if, if 136 00:08:42,860 --> 00:08:46,580 Apple announces something, a new product, the foldable phone I just saw the other 137 00:08:46,580 --> 00:08:50,320 day, everyone's going to cover that. But a 138 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,000 small to mid size company that announces a new product 139 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,800 or a new partnership, we try to get there first, we 140 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,440 try to break that news and then we went on SEO, we went on 141 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,000 distribution on the platforms. If someone's searching that symbol on 142 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,800 a fidelity or a public, they'll see our news 143 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,280 first because a lot of the outlets don't care to cover the little 144 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,910 guys and we've kind of taken the opposite approach. And so that's how we've, 145 00:09:15,910 --> 00:09:19,630 we've scaled it. Of course we cover the Apple updates 146 00:09:19,630 --> 00:09:23,430 as well. Everybody has to, our users need to know that. But 147 00:09:23,430 --> 00:09:27,190 we cover the smaller guys and we've also been a little bit, I need 148 00:09:27,190 --> 00:09:30,190 to say this compliantly. How do I say this compliantly? We've been 149 00:09:32,430 --> 00:09:36,270 flexible and open minded about new 150 00:09:36,270 --> 00:09:39,550 markets as they enter the space. So we were one of the first 151 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,880 financial media companies to cover Cannabis back in 152 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,240 201716 when, when everything went 153 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,080 bonkers. We covered psychedelics. 154 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,640 That didn't really go anywhere from a public company perspective, but it was interesting 155 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,400 nonetheless. We, we foresee of course, AI blockchain, 156 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,880 crypto, but we foresee 157 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,200 ourselves as like our duty is to share with our 158 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,680 users any and all investable 159 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:12,520 opportunities. They come to us to understand how to 160 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,240 build their wealth and we present it in an objective way. And so we've, 161 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,600 we've kind of, we've been able to win from an SEO and a readership 162 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,320 perspective and built a loyal following by 163 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,080 not being afraid to push the status quo and share what's 164 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,360 going on. That makes sense because you know, 165 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:34,290 cannabis now is kind of very mainstream but like 166 00:10:34,290 --> 00:10:38,050 psychedelics is probably not very mainstream. I can't imagine them talking 167 00:10:38,050 --> 00:10:41,850 about that seriously on Bloomberg, right? Bloomberg is very straight 168 00:10:41,850 --> 00:10:45,530 laced. But now I can kind of see 169 00:10:45,530 --> 00:10:49,250 like you know, that that's one interesting niche. I also looked at your 170 00:10:49,250 --> 00:10:52,610 website and I think it's cool, like one of your item headers is 171 00:10:52,610 --> 00:10:56,450 APIs. So we'll talk about that next. But yeah, that's 172 00:10:56,450 --> 00:11:00,090 an interesting point. It looks like I cut Candace off. Sorry Candace. Well, I was 173 00:11:00,090 --> 00:11:03,670 just thinking because you know, Bloomberg's strange strength is their speed 174 00:11:03,670 --> 00:11:07,430 and their breath. Right. I wonder 175 00:11:07,430 --> 00:11:11,190 if that creates blind spots in the stories that they're 176 00:11:11,190 --> 00:11:14,990 covering. Yeah, I mean, they're breaking 177 00:11:14,990 --> 00:11:18,390 the biggest stories in the world. They'll get there first. They have their 178 00:11:18,390 --> 00:11:22,230 relationships and so they're focused on those, 179 00:11:22,230 --> 00:11:25,470 those larger moving items. They need 180 00:11:26,350 --> 00:11:29,780 outlets like us to cover the smaller stuff, the, the stuff that we're chasing and 181 00:11:29,780 --> 00:11:32,460 digging for. It's not worth the resources to do that. 182 00:11:33,420 --> 00:11:36,940 We've built those relationships over the last 16 years and so 183 00:11:36,940 --> 00:11:40,460 it's like a 17 now. So it's, 184 00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:44,300 it's, it's, it's kind of, it's a good place to sit. As, as a 185 00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:47,900 media provider and considering 186 00:11:48,380 --> 00:11:52,100 retail investing for the long term, our users want to know about 187 00:11:52,100 --> 00:11:55,890 those smaller companies that are emerging, the smaller markets. One 188 00:11:55,890 --> 00:11:59,650 example, and we could talk about it in depth if you'd like. I'm 189 00:11:59,650 --> 00:12:02,730 super interested in the prediction markets, 190 00:12:04,250 --> 00:12:07,890 developments across the industry. This would be like Poly base, 191 00:12:07,890 --> 00:12:11,129 Poly market and all that. Yeah, I'm curious about that too because 192 00:12:11,850 --> 00:12:15,570 I see that and I'm like, how is this different than betting? And 193 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:18,570 then I know there's a lot of pressure to regulate this and 194 00:12:19,450 --> 00:12:21,730 I don't want to put you on the spot or anything like that, but I'm 195 00:12:21,730 --> 00:12:25,520 just, how did this come about? Because it just seems like how come this 196 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,080 wasn't always a thing and how come it's just recently become a big thing? 197 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,960 Yeah, it's. So Kelsey, we just announced a 198 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,480 partnership with Kelsey today. Actually we're working with Fiscal 199 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,680 AI. It's another really impressive data vendor in the space. 200 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,800 Benzinga earnings plus fiscal AIs 201 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,880 company KPI data is helping to power new company 202 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,660 KPI markets on Kalshi. So imagine you're 203 00:12:53,660 --> 00:12:57,340 a trader. I like to think of it as trading. It's not investing, it's not 204 00:12:57,340 --> 00:13:00,860 betting. It's trading. Some of it is betting. But for this 205 00:13:00,860 --> 00:13:04,660 specifically, this is trick. Imagine 206 00:13:04,660 --> 00:13:07,780 you feel that Spotify 207 00:13:08,020 --> 00:13:11,380 users will increase this quarter 208 00:13:12,500 --> 00:13:15,700 and you want to invest in Spotify, but with the 209 00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:19,880 macroeconomic trends and general market trends, you 210 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,400 don't know that the price will respond 211 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,680 positively to the news that you are confident in. Now 212 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:31,040 you can invest in that specific company, 213 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,600 KPI on Kelsey 214 00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:38,480 instead of investing in Spotify as a single equity 215 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,480 and you take out all that variability. And so 216 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,240 this is above my head, but imagine you're a quantitative 217 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,220 trader or an institutional 218 00:13:50,420 --> 00:13:54,140 firm and you have a bunch of long 219 00:13:54,140 --> 00:13:57,380 call options on something. You can start using those different 220 00:13:57,380 --> 00:14:00,820 markets to hedge your positions in 221 00:14:00,820 --> 00:14:04,580 structured ways. I think that this is the first 222 00:14:04,580 --> 00:14:07,060 step towards true financial 223 00:14:08,260 --> 00:14:11,300 systems and strategies that combine 224 00:14:11,860 --> 00:14:15,500 traditional equities or options futures contracts 225 00:14:15,740 --> 00:14:19,460 with single company performance. I think 226 00:14:19,460 --> 00:14:22,540 that from here it's. The opportunities are endless. 227 00:14:23,180 --> 00:14:27,020 That's pretty wild. So if I heard you right, it's, 228 00:14:27,660 --> 00:14:31,420 you can pick one KPI and kind of invest, slash, bet, slash, 229 00:14:31,420 --> 00:14:35,260 trade. You know, those verbs are very, the lines between those are very 230 00:14:35,260 --> 00:14:38,220 blurry in my opinion. And, 231 00:14:39,020 --> 00:14:42,470 and then just kind of invest in that. That's an interesting concept. 232 00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:46,390 I remember hearing something, and this goes way back probably, probably way 233 00:14:46,390 --> 00:14:49,830 before. I think I'm a bit older than you, but I remember 234 00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:55,750 the rise of these new financial products that were like coming out of 235 00:14:58,310 --> 00:15:01,670 like the quant world. Right. Where it was kind of like one of the ones 236 00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:05,150 I heard was Snapple at one point was not a public company. Right. But you 237 00:15:05,150 --> 00:15:08,910 could buy something called an Elk and it was like an equity 238 00:15:08,910 --> 00:15:12,670 linked something. And I'm like, I always was fascinated by 239 00:15:12,670 --> 00:15:15,510 this. And what's interesting was most of the quants 240 00:15:16,390 --> 00:15:19,870 when I was at Merrill lynch were on the 24th floor and they kind of 241 00:15:19,870 --> 00:15:23,710 had their own separate space there. And like, it was kind of like they didn't 242 00:15:23,710 --> 00:15:27,470 talk about what they did in there, but if you 243 00:15:27,470 --> 00:15:30,550 could talk to them and they would kind of explain things in ways that made 244 00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:33,830 no sense and simultaneously made a lot of sense. 245 00:15:35,310 --> 00:15:38,910 That. And, but what you're describing seems to be very much a 21st century 246 00:15:38,910 --> 00:15:41,790 edition of what we used to call quants. 247 00:15:43,230 --> 00:15:46,990 Yeah. And there's, I mean there's still. The quants do very well. The quants beat 248 00:15:46,990 --> 00:15:49,790 the market last quarter. Right. They're, they're outperforming. 249 00:15:50,990 --> 00:15:54,590 They either really outperform or really underperform. Like there's no, 250 00:15:55,070 --> 00:15:56,270 there's no middle with them. 251 00:15:58,590 --> 00:16:02,290 They, some of them are getting involved in the prediction markets, their market 252 00:16:02,290 --> 00:16:05,930 making some of that. Like, I mean, Charles 253 00:16:05,930 --> 00:16:08,970 Schwab yesterday on CNBC expressed interest 254 00:16:09,850 --> 00:16:13,530 in the prediction markets. Of course, the Charles Schwab 255 00:16:13,530 --> 00:16:17,130 CEO wouldn't say yes or no explicitly, 256 00:16:17,130 --> 00:16:20,170 but he said something like, there's a world where we could have it on our 257 00:16:20,170 --> 00:16:23,810 platform. It wouldn't be too hard to add. Interactive 258 00:16:23,810 --> 00:16:27,520 Brokers has a, has a company that is building 259 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,920 markets. They spoke at our event last year. All these 260 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,600 brokerages that are allowing for investing in 261 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,560 equities are looking at this as well. And we foresee it 262 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,360 as, as an industry. We foresee it as a new tool that opens 263 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,080 up opportunities. And so anybody trading, whether 264 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,320 it's the quantitative PhD at Citadel 265 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,060 or the retail investor like Myself, 266 00:16:55,020 --> 00:16:58,820 the odds and I know I'm kind of all over 267 00:16:58,820 --> 00:17:02,580 the place on this idea, but consider also the implied 268 00:17:02,580 --> 00:17:06,260 odds from public opinion and what that can 269 00:17:06,260 --> 00:17:09,900 provide. So all these analysts that all these sell side banks are saying 270 00:17:10,060 --> 00:17:13,740 there's a 58% chance that the Fed is going to increase rates 271 00:17:14,060 --> 00:17:17,220 on X date. Now you can go on Kelshi or 272 00:17:17,220 --> 00:17:21,030 Polymarket and see that public opinion says it's 273 00:17:21,030 --> 00:17:24,510 actually a 68% chance and you can 274 00:17:24,510 --> 00:17:28,030 invest accordingly. And so not only does it provide new 275 00:17:28,110 --> 00:17:31,830 tools to ways to invest, but it 276 00:17:31,830 --> 00:17:35,470 also provides new publicly sourced insights on 277 00:17:35,470 --> 00:17:39,030 traditional investing. It's like another signal that you can read 278 00:17:39,030 --> 00:17:42,750 into and get. But how does that work though? Like how does that work 279 00:17:42,750 --> 00:17:46,510 when we use the current events of the Strait of Hormuz, right. There 280 00:17:46,510 --> 00:17:50,150 was all these bets leading up that will there be. Will it be closed by 281 00:17:50,150 --> 00:17:51,290 X number of dates? Right. 282 00:17:53,690 --> 00:17:57,330 And people, how do you invest in that? Because there's no, as far as I 283 00:17:57,330 --> 00:18:00,970 could tell, what are the assets behind that? I don't get. 284 00:18:00,970 --> 00:18:03,890 That's the thing I don't get. Like with the stock, it's pretty obvious, right? You 285 00:18:03,890 --> 00:18:06,849 get a slice of a company, right? The future. You get a slice of a 286 00:18:06,849 --> 00:18:10,570 future trade or whatever. I don't understand like, so if 287 00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:13,690 I don't want to, I don't want to say like a sports like who's going 288 00:18:13,690 --> 00:18:16,530 to win the Super Bowl? Because that's kind of betting. But I mean we're. I 289 00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:20,370 get. Maybe it's the same thing. I don't know, like where's the money 290 00:18:20,370 --> 00:18:23,170 for this? Is it just people putting money down? Like, hey, you know, 291 00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:28,930 what's the river by. By Montreal? 292 00:18:28,930 --> 00:18:32,770 St. Lawrence river, right. Who's going to close the Straits of St. Lawrence, right. I 293 00:18:32,770 --> 00:18:36,570 don't want to try not to like get involved in any geopolitical things 294 00:18:36,570 --> 00:18:40,210 that are going on. Right. Although who knows, like, you know, what are the 295 00:18:40,210 --> 00:18:44,010 odds of the straight, you know, the St. Lawrence river being blocked up by ice 296 00:18:44,010 --> 00:18:47,550 in April, Right. Like, you know, which does. We're going to have 297 00:18:47,550 --> 00:18:51,390 flooding then, right? Like right, right, right, right. Like flooding. Where's 298 00:18:51,390 --> 00:18:55,150 the asset for that? Right. That's good. Scandals. Because that's a natural thing. It's not 299 00:18:55,150 --> 00:18:58,790 tied to any geopolitical drama because the world has enough of that. 300 00:19:00,310 --> 00:19:03,990 Like what's. Or, you know, hurricanes in Miami or you know, 301 00:19:04,310 --> 00:19:08,110 flooding on the Chesapeake Bay or I don't know, like what is it 302 00:19:08,110 --> 00:19:11,910 just like who puts up the money? Who would forces those contracts? Like how does 303 00:19:11,910 --> 00:19:15,720 that work? Like I, I feel like I completely have 304 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,440 no idea what's going on here. Yeah, so I, I'm no, 305 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,400 I'm no professional on this. I, or, or you know, but 306 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,040 I, I've done some research and the way that these markets work 307 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,040 is it's true market dynamics, in order to buy 308 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,000 a yes contract, there must be a seller of a no 309 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,080 contract. There must be a buyer of a no contract. Sorry, 310 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,240 try that again. For every yes, there's someone that's taking the no. 311 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,680 And so that's where it gets interesting for these quantitative hedge funds 312 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,200 is they're market making on bad bets and there's even 313 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,760 retail investors that are market making on bad bets. And so 314 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,280 you know, one thing, not bets, trades. One thing that I 315 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,120 think is interesting is a multi outcome event 316 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,720 like the presidential election for example. There is 317 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,080 a list of 30 candidates and one 318 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,920 candidate is at a 35 chance. Similar to 319 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,320 horse, horse racing where some people, you can either take the, 320 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,680 the preferred or you can, or you can play the field and there's all these 321 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,240 different ways to do it or you can bet no against specific 322 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,360 winners and take a 4% return, 323 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,200 take a about 6% return. But if you do it at scale then 324 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,400 it makes it worth market making. And so 325 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,800 the Kelsey or the platform Polymarket 326 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,280 will create the market and they'll settle the market based on a 327 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,080 defined outcome, you know, based on the Fed 328 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,760 notes of this, you 329 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,440 know, however they announce it and then 330 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,300 the market will determine the odds and determine 331 00:21:01,460 --> 00:21:05,140 the yes or no. And it also, it's, it's, it's 332 00:21:05,140 --> 00:21:08,820 driven by liquidity. So if there's no one taking no, then you can't buy a 333 00:21:08,820 --> 00:21:12,460 yes. So it's almost self regulating or 334 00:21:12,460 --> 00:21:16,100 self, not self balancing. Self equilibrium 335 00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:19,460 would be a good way to put that. Okay, that makes a little more sense. 336 00:21:19,780 --> 00:21:22,740 But these Polymorph, I don't want to call anyone by name but a lot of 337 00:21:22,740 --> 00:21:26,370 these quote unquote, you know, it will. The river flood type things, 338 00:21:26,690 --> 00:21:30,050 those are not regulated like an exchange as of 339 00:21:30,530 --> 00:21:34,210 today at least. Right. The CFTC regulates these 340 00:21:34,210 --> 00:21:37,890 markets now. Oh they do. Okay. But that's pretty recent. Like within the last 341 00:21:38,370 --> 00:21:41,010 few months. The date, I'm not sure but 342 00:21:41,890 --> 00:21:45,370 since, since Kelsey has been live in the US and legal. Okay. The 343 00:21:45,370 --> 00:21:48,850 CFTC has been on it. So which makes it very interesting as well 344 00:21:48,930 --> 00:21:52,210 because it does add some structure. 345 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,960 I think this is still the golden age of it. I think this is still 346 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,960 first innings but there is some structure of what markets can 347 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:03,160 and can't be what you can and can't bet on. Or trade on. 348 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,600 I'm fascinated by this new market. Benzinga just 349 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,160 produced a newsfeed around prediction markets, 350 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,240 how it can affect equities, what's happening in the market. It's getting a lot of 351 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,590 traffic on our site. We, we try to be ahead of the curve on that 352 00:22:22,590 --> 00:22:25,830 type of stuff. So. And it does seem to be, at least with some of 353 00:22:25,830 --> 00:22:29,430 the macro events in the world, it does seem to be fairly accurate from the 354 00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:32,350 ones now, I don't know, maybe those are the ones that are just cherry picked, 355 00:22:32,350 --> 00:22:35,190 right. We don't, we hear about the winners, we don't necessarily about the user but 356 00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:39,030 losers but like the whole, you know, will there be action taken against. I 357 00:22:39,030 --> 00:22:42,710 know with Venezuela, the, these prediction markets got that 358 00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:46,440 nailed. It got, you know, 359 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,960 what's currently going on in Iran and that part of the world. It got that 360 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:51,640 correct. Alarmingly so. 361 00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:57,880 So clearly when it works, it works really well. But have there been examples where 362 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,759 it really wasn't on point or is it really just 363 00:23:01,759 --> 00:23:05,280 so plugged into. I also 364 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,600 wonder too, like how does that. I'm sorry, I don't want to follow. I had 365 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,080 back on the monster energy drink today, so my 366 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,150 brain's kind of on fire, but 367 00:23:15,830 --> 00:23:19,270 I just can't imagine like, I mean there's got to be some kind of insider 368 00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:23,030 trading risk, right? Like if you work at, you know, 369 00:23:23,030 --> 00:23:26,550 a government agency and you know, like we're going to, we're going to start 370 00:23:26,550 --> 00:23:29,910 wrecking this part of the world, right? Like, let me, let me go into 371 00:23:29,910 --> 00:23:33,310 polymarket, right? There's probably got to be some kind of. That's probably 372 00:23:33,310 --> 00:23:37,070 illegal. It's illegal. They, all of 373 00:23:37,070 --> 00:23:40,480 the platforms have controls around it 374 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,480 and you'll see headlines about XYZ getting caught, insider 375 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,120 trading on these things. The 376 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,640 what I'll say, I don't know of examples where it is not 377 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,520 correct, but there's a bunch of. I studied econ in college and 378 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,280 there's a bunch of studies around how public opinion is the most accurate opinion. 379 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,360 And so when you crowdsource an opinion, it's, it's often 380 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:10,240 truer than any single researcher can, can create. 381 00:24:11,290 --> 00:24:15,090 So I think as a general rule the insights, as long as there's enough liquidity, 382 00:24:15,090 --> 00:24:18,570 as long as there's enough activity on the platform, these insights are 383 00:24:18,730 --> 00:24:22,570 pretty accurate. And that just opens up a lot of, 384 00:24:22,970 --> 00:24:26,609 I mean the more markets that are available on the platform with high liquidity, the 385 00:24:26,609 --> 00:24:30,370 more insights we can get on what may happen in the future. It's like 386 00:24:30,370 --> 00:24:34,210 a prediction tool for researchers and traders. 387 00:24:34,210 --> 00:24:36,720 Whether you're Using the platform or not, you can use it as a reference point. 388 00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:40,670 Point. Interesting. Yeah, that, that's cool. I hadn't thought about 389 00:24:40,670 --> 00:24:44,470 that. It's another signal to pull in from. Interesting. Candace looks like she's 390 00:24:44,470 --> 00:24:48,150 itching to ask questions. Sorry. So do prediction markets 391 00:24:48,150 --> 00:24:51,670 actually forecast outcomes or are they mostly. 392 00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:55,830 They mostly reflect the confidence of whoever is paying the most 393 00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:59,670 attention at the moment. That's a very 394 00:24:59,670 --> 00:25:03,310 good question. I'm not sure. There probably is some, 395 00:25:03,310 --> 00:25:07,150 some bias involved because if you are willing to 396 00:25:07,150 --> 00:25:09,190 pony up your personal money 397 00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:13,830 towards something, you probably have a bit of bias 398 00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:18,150 that I'm not sure. So let me 399 00:25:18,150 --> 00:25:21,870 ask you this. Where do prediction markets break down? What kind 400 00:25:21,870 --> 00:25:24,470 of events or conditions make them unreliable? 401 00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:30,790 Unreliable. These are good questions. I'm going to 402 00:25:30,790 --> 00:25:31,750 do some research on this. 403 00:25:34,860 --> 00:25:38,540 I, I think that now that there's 404 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:42,540 better controls for insider trading, 405 00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:46,220 there's probably less accuracy, actually, 406 00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:50,380 because the people that know for sure aren't able to 407 00:25:51,660 --> 00:25:55,380 invest or trade. But with that comes 408 00:25:55,380 --> 00:25:59,060 a fair market for participants. So that could 409 00:25:59,060 --> 00:26:01,900 be considered a breakdown in some respects. 410 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,120 There was the, the, there's rules that the 411 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:12,680 CFTC has where you can't have 412 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:13,880 contracts on certain 413 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,040 outcomes like death or war. 414 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,360 There are also rules from the cftc, and I'm, I'm no 415 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:26,960 professional on this, so this is not legal advice, it's not investment advice. This is 416 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,690 just my, you know, nightly research that I, I've been 417 00:26:30,690 --> 00:26:34,370 doing on this. There's rules around like everyone. Yeah, this is 418 00:26:34,370 --> 00:26:38,090 just, this is my first, my personal opinion. Don't bet the 419 00:26:38,090 --> 00:26:40,450 farm on anything you hear today. Yeah, 420 00:26:41,810 --> 00:26:45,410 I, I've read that there's certain CFTC regulations 421 00:26:45,410 --> 00:26:49,170 where there can't be contracts around specific revenue figures 422 00:26:49,170 --> 00:26:52,370 for companies. And so that's where the c, the, the 423 00:26:53,330 --> 00:26:56,850 KPI thing comes into play where it's like you can't 424 00:26:56,850 --> 00:26:59,610 bet or trade on 425 00:27:00,330 --> 00:27:04,050 earnings to be this amount or total revenue, top 426 00:27:04,050 --> 00:27:07,810 line, bottom line, this amount. But you can trade on how 427 00:27:07,810 --> 00:27:11,610 many iPads will be sold, how many cyber trucks will be delivered. 428 00:27:13,130 --> 00:27:16,410 So I think that with any new market, 429 00:27:17,690 --> 00:27:21,210 it's slowly through trial and error and through 430 00:27:22,850 --> 00:27:26,690 new scenarios that we haven't seen before. The, the details 431 00:27:26,690 --> 00:27:29,730 will, will get ironed out further and further to be an efficient market. 432 00:27:32,290 --> 00:27:36,090 Interesting. I, I find it fascinating that this 433 00:27:36,090 --> 00:27:39,570 is real. I think the regulation here is relatively new. I remember this was, 434 00:27:39,730 --> 00:27:42,210 you know, and I, you know, 435 00:27:43,570 --> 00:27:45,890 I hear on the radio that, you know, 436 00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:51,180 that Congress is looking at more regulations than this. 437 00:27:52,860 --> 00:27:56,020 I just think it's fascinating because you said this is the golden age. It's also 438 00:27:56,020 --> 00:27:59,500 the wild, wild West. And I think it's always interesting how those two tend to 439 00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:00,540 go together. Right. 440 00:28:04,780 --> 00:28:08,460 And I would imagine, I guess with the individual KPIs, 441 00:28:08,540 --> 00:28:12,340 it would be like more people are going to listen to podcasts next month 442 00:28:12,340 --> 00:28:15,590 on Spotify than they would on Apple. Would be like one of the things you 443 00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:19,350 kind of bet for or against. And I guess that's a way, if I'm willing 444 00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:21,910 to pony up the money, as you would assume, 445 00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:26,510 rational actors would go with what 446 00:28:26,510 --> 00:28:30,310 they're thinking. And then that kind of explains, I guess, the wisdom of 447 00:28:30,310 --> 00:28:34,150 the crowd. Right. I remember this was a thing when 448 00:28:34,150 --> 00:28:37,950 it was. Might have been one of those famous bloggers from 449 00:28:37,950 --> 00:28:40,720 the mid 2000s had this whole. 450 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,520 Mini book on who wants to be a Millionaire 451 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,720 and they discovered that the most accurate answer was the 452 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,560 crowd, which was really kind of where I 453 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,440 first heard the notion of crowdsourcing and wisdom of the crowd. 454 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,080 And it seems to be still kind of be true. 455 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,530 Right. And these prediction 456 00:29:07,530 --> 00:29:11,370 markets tend to let that happen. That's really interesting. 457 00:29:11,610 --> 00:29:15,410 That is interesting. I mean, I, and anybody can build their own thesis, 458 00:29:15,410 --> 00:29:19,170 right. I'm in Miami. It's flooded with cyber trucks and 459 00:29:19,170 --> 00:29:22,730 Ferraris everywhere. If I see a decrease in 460 00:29:22,730 --> 00:29:26,330 cyber trucks at the turn of the year, the new model, 461 00:29:26,330 --> 00:29:29,970 then I might make a thesis on deliveries for cybertrucks 462 00:29:29,970 --> 00:29:33,600 myself. That's true. There's a lot of these little signals 463 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,200 people don't, like, take seriously. And I think one of the ones I 464 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,960 heard was that there was somebody did 465 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,760 a project where predicting local congressional district 466 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,440 election outcomes based on car types. 467 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,560 So if they suddenly notice a particular type of car showed up 468 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,610 on Google Street Maps of all places, right. They. 469 00:29:57,930 --> 00:30:01,490 They would basically low, like, you know, suddenly, you know, if it's a swing 470 00:30:01,490 --> 00:30:05,130 district, obviously, if it's. If it's a stable district and it's really not, 471 00:30:06,250 --> 00:30:09,010 that's not a good signal. But if it's like a swing district where it really 472 00:30:09,010 --> 00:30:12,769 could go either way, like if they saw more Priuses versus more, you 473 00:30:12,769 --> 00:30:16,090 know, pickup trucks, right. Like, it was. It was an interesting signal. 474 00:30:17,050 --> 00:30:19,610 Interesting, yeah. The signal that people use 475 00:30:21,610 --> 00:30:25,370 baffles me. It's. It's incredible what 476 00:30:26,490 --> 00:30:30,130 the smartest people in the world, frankly, the quantitative investors, the, the hedge 477 00:30:30,130 --> 00:30:32,970 funds, I mean, satellite imagery, 478 00:30:34,090 --> 00:30:37,130 phone usage, app downloads, 479 00:30:37,610 --> 00:30:40,970 credit card history. It's like 480 00:30:41,370 --> 00:30:45,170 the, the signals that they put together in order to produce alpha. It 481 00:30:45,170 --> 00:30:49,010 just blows my mind. And you mentioned satellite imagery, because that was 482 00:30:49,010 --> 00:30:52,810 the one I first heard of. This was basically on Black Friday. They would have 483 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,080 either Satellites or people like in planes taking aerial photography 484 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,680 of shopping mall parking lots and based on how 485 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,160 full or not full they were, they could predict kind of that 486 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,240 wasn't an elegant signal, but it was still a signal. 487 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,160 That was the one that blew my mind because like I was talking to somebody 488 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,680 who claimed his brother or his cousin was like a, like a 489 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,200 commercial pilot that would take aerial photography and like the busiest day of the year 490 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,640 for him was Black Friday. That's 491 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,880 crazy. Yeah, the, anything that's statistically significant. 492 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,320 I, I think the alt data space is so interesting and no matter how good 493 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,760 AI gets the ideas that 494 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,160 humans have that link together to produce alpha 495 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,800 will forever be dynamic. We, we work with a lot of the quant funds 496 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,890 and they're always willing to test everything and anything they 497 00:31:45,890 --> 00:31:49,730 want to see if there's correlation between two variables. And it's 498 00:31:49,730 --> 00:31:52,730 so amazing what they find in order to produce alpha. 499 00:31:53,930 --> 00:31:57,170 Maybe in a different life I'll do my PhD in 500 00:31:57,170 --> 00:32:00,650 mathematics and put numbers together to produce 501 00:32:01,770 --> 00:32:05,410 alpha. So is that what alternate data is? Because I was looking at the API 502 00:32:05,410 --> 00:32:08,650 products that you guys have on your site and 503 00:32:08,970 --> 00:32:12,650 there's the obvious news, there's corporate actions, but there was also something called 504 00:32:12,650 --> 00:32:16,260 alternative data. And I was like what does that mean? Alternative 505 00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:19,980 music? No, but what is alternative data? I guess these are kind of, 506 00:32:19,980 --> 00:32:22,980 would be non traditional kind of stuff like number of 507 00:32:23,540 --> 00:32:27,060 cyber trucks you see on Miami street 508 00:32:27,060 --> 00:32:30,580 versus let's just say if the economy tanks 509 00:32:30,660 --> 00:32:33,860 people will be driving more modest. Maybe Honda Civics. Right, like 510 00:32:35,140 --> 00:32:38,740 that sort of thing. Yeah, I think in Miami they'll still rent 511 00:32:38,820 --> 00:32:42,580 the Lambos. I don't think it's. Yeah, yeah, I'm still gonna see the Lambos on 512 00:32:42,580 --> 00:32:46,240 my street. Um, but it's the old 513 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,520 data space is super interesting because the data has to be 514 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,280 extremely structured and consistent and there has to be a back, 515 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,040 is a back testable history available of at least three years 516 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,800 usually. So one example, 517 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,600 so how, how our alt data business came along and we actually have 518 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,160 someone on our team that focuses on it. He was a trader for 519 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,160 15 years and he speaks the language and understands what people are looking for. 520 00:33:13,070 --> 00:33:15,630 We as Benzinga have a really deep 521 00:33:16,750 --> 00:33:20,310 network with fintechs across the space. We host an 522 00:33:20,310 --> 00:33:24,070 annual fintech awards day where all 523 00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:27,830 the brokerages trade tech data providers big and small come together 524 00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:31,510 and share what they're, they're working on. And so because of that we've built this, 525 00:33:31,510 --> 00:33:34,590 this really deep network and people come to us and say hey, we have this 526 00:33:34,590 --> 00:33:38,310 new data set that might be interesting we have the relationships with the quants and 527 00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:41,950 the brokerages and if something rings 528 00:33:41,950 --> 00:33:45,630 interesting from our qualification, then we'll present it to who we think it 529 00:33:45,630 --> 00:33:49,350 fits with. So it's kind of like a data brokerage. It's not a. The majority 530 00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:52,750 of our business is our internal data sets, our proprietary data sets, but we do 531 00:33:52,750 --> 00:33:56,350 this as well. It helps us keep a pulse on what's going on. And so 532 00:33:56,350 --> 00:33:59,910 it could be anything from like one partner we're working with 533 00:33:59,910 --> 00:34:03,510 now. They've found a way to provide real 534 00:34:03,510 --> 00:34:07,350 time short interest data, which is extremely difficult because a lot of short interest filings 535 00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:10,929 is on a delayed basis. We have a partner who has 536 00:34:10,929 --> 00:34:14,289 deep institutional holdings data and trends from it. 537 00:34:14,929 --> 00:34:18,649 We know people that do advanced options chain 538 00:34:18,649 --> 00:34:21,889 analytics. We have different news sources 539 00:34:22,129 --> 00:34:25,409 that are unique and abnormal, 540 00:34:25,729 --> 00:34:29,169 specific niches that they fill. And so if we ever come across something 541 00:34:29,169 --> 00:34:32,689 that's interesting and unique, that is delivered in a 542 00:34:32,689 --> 00:34:36,340 structured, systematic way, present it to the quants and they, they 543 00:34:36,340 --> 00:34:40,060 always test it. And if they find that it fits in a model, then 544 00:34:40,220 --> 00:34:44,020 they move forward with it. If it doesn't produce alpha, then we 545 00:34:44,020 --> 00:34:47,740 try the next one. And I think it's just 546 00:34:48,060 --> 00:34:51,900 like friend to friend on this podcast and everyone listening. It's very 547 00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:55,580 interesting to me because in my career it's always 548 00:34:55,580 --> 00:34:59,340 been, you have a product and then you sell 549 00:34:59,420 --> 00:35:03,270 and try to, you, you go and search and try to source leads and 550 00:35:03,270 --> 00:35:06,790 then you sell them on the value proposition and you help them 551 00:35:06,790 --> 00:35:10,510 visualize how it will fit into their platform. On the alt 552 00:35:10,510 --> 00:35:13,870 data side, there's. There's no selling. It's actually 553 00:35:13,870 --> 00:35:17,590 buyers. It's like just buyers and producers. Essentially all of these buyers 554 00:35:17,590 --> 00:35:21,430 are looking for new data sets and they'll test everything. 555 00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:25,430 There's no sale. It's like, hey, there's people 556 00:35:25,430 --> 00:35:29,190 at these companies that their whole role is to know what's going on in 557 00:35:29,190 --> 00:35:33,030 the market and test each of the data sets. So it's really, 558 00:35:33,350 --> 00:35:36,750 if you can, flea market, isn't it? It's almost, I mean, I get the vibe 559 00:35:36,750 --> 00:35:40,270 that it's like a flea market where people are looking for the, I don't know, 560 00:35:40,270 --> 00:35:43,870 some ridiculous tacky thing or not tacky that sounds, 561 00:35:43,870 --> 00:35:47,470 but like something that has no value to anyone else right now. Right. 562 00:35:47,470 --> 00:35:51,230 Like, you know, that, that vintage, you know, we'll go back about 10, 15 563 00:35:51,230 --> 00:35:54,950 years. Vinyl, like people weren't really in the vinyl. 564 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,880 You know, there was a core set, but, but like now, now 565 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,720 that's a premium offering, right? You see a lot of companies offering kind of new 566 00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:06,400 Vinyl, old vinyl, that sort of thing. That is interesting. That makes 567 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,360 sense, right? Because if I'm a, if I'm a quant 568 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,040 and, or I'm a, you know, wannabe quant, right. I'm going to be like, you 569 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,720 know, hey, maybe the, the wind pattern is going to 570 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:21,480 alter. Like, you know, you know how the birds fly around my 571 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,860 house and then that's going to impact crop yields down the line. 572 00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:28,820 So I'm gonna buy more. I don't know, my neighbor grows corn, so I'll say 573 00:36:28,820 --> 00:36:32,300 corn, right? I'll buy more corn. You know, or. 574 00:36:32,940 --> 00:36:36,020 That's interesting. That would make a lot of sense because that's kind of like you 575 00:36:36,020 --> 00:36:39,820 have these people. I would imagine it runs the gamut from very, 576 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:43,500 very, very serious kind of PhD types to kind of these 577 00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:46,140 wild eyed scientist types and you know, 578 00:36:47,020 --> 00:36:50,630 Mythbuster type folks. I only 579 00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:54,070 remember this because I remember talking to Someone. This was 580 00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:57,990 30 years ago, Candace. Oh, that's painful to say. 581 00:36:59,030 --> 00:37:02,790 Where I guess SAP had OLAP cubes and things like that. This was still 582 00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:06,470 relatively new. And somebody was saying, he goes, no, no, you don't understand. 583 00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:10,390 Like, you know, the population of kangaroos in Australia could 584 00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:13,110 have an impact on demand for rubber 585 00:37:13,750 --> 00:37:17,590 prices in this market because the way that the 586 00:37:17,590 --> 00:37:21,390 weather hits Australia might hit Indonesia a different way or 587 00:37:21,390 --> 00:37:25,230 something like that. Like, it was just kind of like, it was very 588 00:37:25,230 --> 00:37:28,550 much like, you know, if a butterfly flaps its wings in Singapore, you're going to 589 00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:32,190 have a hurricane in Miami or something. It was kind of like there's a 590 00:37:32,190 --> 00:37:36,030 chain of causality. Yes, I can kind of grasp that. But like, how valuable is 591 00:37:36,030 --> 00:37:39,630 that chain of causality? I think is the. Yeah, it was 592 00:37:39,630 --> 00:37:43,110 just, I remember hearing that and I'm thinking like, this person's either really 593 00:37:43,110 --> 00:37:44,770 brilliant or are really insane. 594 00:37:46,850 --> 00:37:50,490 This, the cross, the cross linking 595 00:37:50,490 --> 00:37:54,210 between data sets to produce alpha. Like I said, it blows my mind 596 00:37:54,210 --> 00:37:57,730 every single day. And one of the frustrating things about working with quants 597 00:37:58,850 --> 00:38:02,610 is that they don't share a thing. They don't share what? No, 598 00:38:02,690 --> 00:38:06,210 zero. Like you said, 24th floor, silent, locked. 599 00:38:06,770 --> 00:38:10,370 They don't want to let. On the left was the server room. 600 00:38:10,660 --> 00:38:14,300 Like, you know, this is way before the cloud kids. There was a server 601 00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:16,940 room and then there was the copy room on the left side of the building 602 00:38:16,940 --> 00:38:20,660 and the right side of the building. It was them. You, you needed badge access 603 00:38:20,660 --> 00:38:24,060 to get into the server room and you needed special badge edges to get to 604 00:38:24,060 --> 00:38:27,620 their, their, their offices. Yeah, no, they don't share that. Cause it's like, 605 00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:31,460 I guess if they Figured something out before anyone else. Like that's the secret formula. 606 00:38:31,860 --> 00:38:35,220 Yeah. And if too many people buy into it or start using that same strategy, 607 00:38:35,220 --> 00:38:38,050 then it. Then it dilute. Right. 608 00:38:41,170 --> 00:38:43,970 Yeah. This has always been a fascinating thing because 609 00:38:46,370 --> 00:38:50,130 the most interesting people when I worked on Wall street certainly weren't 610 00:38:50,130 --> 00:38:53,650 the investment bankers at all or the traders. They were characters, for sure. 611 00:38:53,730 --> 00:38:57,250 But it was the FX traders, the foreign currency people, and the quants. 612 00:38:58,450 --> 00:39:02,210 Quants never talked to anyone outside of their circle. But the foreign 613 00:39:02,210 --> 00:39:05,410 exchange people, the exchange currency people did tend to be a lot more 614 00:39:06,130 --> 00:39:09,850 rambunctious. That's all I'll say. I would love to hear 615 00:39:09,850 --> 00:39:12,450 some stories of these. Lord have mercy. 616 00:39:13,730 --> 00:39:17,450 But yeah, one time. Sorry, go 617 00:39:17,450 --> 00:39:20,810 ahead, Candace. No, no, let's tell your story, Frank. Tell your story. No, I, I 618 00:39:20,810 --> 00:39:24,570 remember I was, I was, I was in it, right? 619 00:39:24,570 --> 00:39:28,370 And I got. One of my tasks was to support 620 00:39:28,530 --> 00:39:32,050 the. With the foreign. The currency 621 00:39:32,050 --> 00:39:35,770 exchange people. And they were characters. I mean, it was just 622 00:39:35,770 --> 00:39:38,970 really weird. Like, I remember my first day, I walk in there 623 00:39:40,410 --> 00:39:44,050 and this lady comes walking by. Apparently 624 00:39:44,050 --> 00:39:47,450 she's famous in those circles in full on cow, 625 00:39:47,610 --> 00:39:51,370 like Roy Rogers style cowboy cowgirl 626 00:39:52,490 --> 00:39:55,530 attire. And 627 00:39:56,090 --> 00:39:59,250 I said to the guy who was now working for me, I'm like, who is 628 00:39:59,250 --> 00:40:02,360 that? He goes, oh, that's so and so. She's really cool, dude. That's not where 629 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,080 I was going with that. It's like, why are we like, you know, 630 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:10,280 you know, in. In like, you know, this old stodgy bank and 631 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,960 somebody's walking around like. Like, this is the wild west. And then I 632 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,520 come to find out that she was very successful. And 633 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,200 part of the, part of the. The 634 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,920 lore of that. That world is like, the more outlandish you can 635 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,160 be. The more successful you are, the more outlandish you can be. 636 00:40:29,370 --> 00:40:32,970 Because no one cares because you made X millions of dollars that morning. Right? 637 00:40:32,970 --> 00:40:36,330 So like, it's almost like a status symbol of how weird you could be. 638 00:40:37,530 --> 00:40:41,050 Interesting. That was my first day there. I was like, I don't know how 639 00:40:41,050 --> 00:40:44,730 prevalent that was. Or was it just this one department in this one company or 640 00:40:44,730 --> 00:40:48,250 is that a thing? I don't know. Sorry, Candace, I cut you off. But 641 00:40:48,570 --> 00:40:52,010 the sight of seeing somebody, like, dressed like Roy Rogers walking down the hallway, 642 00:40:52,250 --> 00:40:55,490 like in a cubicle, but if she's making the money, then she can wear whatever 643 00:40:55,490 --> 00:40:58,250 the hell she wants to wear. I'm not gonna say. I'm gonna say. 644 00:40:59,090 --> 00:41:02,890 Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly, right. Like, you know, somebody said, like, 645 00:41:02,890 --> 00:41:04,890 you know, if you made enough money, you can come in here With a clown 646 00:41:04,890 --> 00:41:07,130 suit. And no one will say words to you. No one's gonna say a thing. 647 00:41:07,130 --> 00:41:10,810 They're gonna say, where do I get mine? Right? That's gonna make me better at 648 00:41:10,810 --> 00:41:14,050 what I better. It's almost a flex. It's almost a flex. It's almost a flex. 649 00:41:14,050 --> 00:41:16,650 I can walk in with a clown suit or something like that. Like it was 650 00:41:16,650 --> 00:41:20,490 just like this was like 30 something years ago and I'm still 651 00:41:20,490 --> 00:41:24,260 like, holy crap, that actually happened. Sorry 652 00:41:24,260 --> 00:41:27,500 Candice, I cut you off. No, no, I'm just thinking about the idea of incentives 653 00:41:27,980 --> 00:41:31,820 shaping truth. And if people 654 00:41:31,820 --> 00:41:35,460 can profit from being right, does that sharpen accuracy 655 00:41:35,460 --> 00:41:38,220 or does that introduce new distortions? 656 00:41:40,380 --> 00:41:44,140 I think both. I think that's the whole, 657 00:41:44,140 --> 00:41:47,860 that's, that's the yin and yang of investing for retail 658 00:41:47,860 --> 00:41:51,110 investors, for institutional investors. 659 00:41:52,070 --> 00:41:55,710 We're all trying to be right, we're all trying to find that edge. And 660 00:41:55,710 --> 00:41:59,310 we, the, the data we produce day in and day out and deliver to these 661 00:41:59,310 --> 00:42:03,150 brokerages is to help users find an edge. Of course they have to 662 00:42:03,150 --> 00:42:06,990 take that data and create their own thesis. Where 663 00:42:06,990 --> 00:42:09,910 it gets dicey is when people 664 00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:14,910 try too hard or get immoral about it. It's, it truly is. The 665 00:42:14,910 --> 00:42:18,620 market truly is an aggregation of humanity 666 00:42:19,260 --> 00:42:22,060 and there's good actors and there's bad actors and there's 667 00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:25,900 immoral and moral beings in the space 668 00:42:26,380 --> 00:42:30,180 and it's a net zero game. So 669 00:42:30,180 --> 00:42:34,020 someone's going to win and someone's going to lose and people do 670 00:42:34,020 --> 00:42:37,020 some really shady stuff across history. Right. Like we've seen 671 00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:41,620 the Bernie Madoffs of the world and smaller cases of it every 672 00:42:41,620 --> 00:42:45,430 year. There's a small case of it. I think 673 00:42:45,430 --> 00:42:49,190 as long as people maintain their humanity and they use 674 00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:51,950 the tools that are legal and moral to 675 00:42:53,310 --> 00:42:56,430 find alpha, I. E. Be correct, 676 00:42:56,990 --> 00:43:00,790 then it makes the market better. But once people try too hard and get 677 00:43:00,790 --> 00:43:04,390 too dicey about it, that's when people lose jobs and 678 00:43:04,390 --> 00:43:07,070 Enron closes and those sort of things. 679 00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:12,960 Yeah, there's always that. I mean it is a mirror. Markets are a mirror to 680 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:14,760 humanity, aren't they? Right. Like 681 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,720 bad people are going to be bad, good people are going to be good. 682 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,160 Most people are going to bounce between those two extremes. Good, 683 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,480 bad, the ugly. Right, right, right. Back to the western theme. 684 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,480 So if we fast forward a couple years, do we 685 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,050 see prediction markets becoming a trusted decision making tools 686 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,960 or just another signal people learn to question? 687 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,280 I don't know where it's going to go. That's what I'm excited to see, where 688 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,040 it's going to go. I keep posting on my LinkedIn with that question and no 689 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,240 one's answering it. I'm waiting for someone. If anybody has the answer, please go to 690 00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:54,520 my LinkedIn and tell me where this is actually where this is going to end 691 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,440 up. Is it going to be in every 692 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,560 brokerage? Are we going to look on our 693 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,240 401k and have the odds next to 694 00:44:05,470 --> 00:44:08,830 the S P, you know, the spy, whatever you're 695 00:44:08,910 --> 00:44:11,390 averaging into, in your, in your account? 696 00:44:13,070 --> 00:44:16,670 Or is it going to be a secondary resource? Or are these 697 00:44:16,670 --> 00:44:20,470 lawsuits of. This is gambling. You 698 00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:23,870 know, there's a lot of pressure from specific 699 00:44:23,870 --> 00:44:27,590 jurisdictions and also from the fanduels 700 00:44:27,590 --> 00:44:30,350 and the draftkings of the world to 701 00:44:31,450 --> 00:44:35,290 kind of nip this at the bud. Where. Where is it 702 00:44:35,290 --> 00:44:37,050 going to go? I think that's, I think that's one of the reasons why I'm 703 00:44:37,050 --> 00:44:39,850 so interested in this space is because it's 704 00:44:40,570 --> 00:44:44,170 extremely disruptive for traditional finance, for 705 00:44:44,330 --> 00:44:46,090 the gambling industry, for 706 00:44:48,010 --> 00:44:50,650 researchers, I mean, for politicians. 707 00:44:51,770 --> 00:44:55,530 And so when that happens, there's. There's people on both sides. It's polarizing. 708 00:44:55,850 --> 00:44:59,670 You know, this is like my, this is my drama that 709 00:44:59,670 --> 00:45:02,550 I'm following. This is my reality tv. 710 00:45:03,670 --> 00:45:07,470 No, that's true. Prediction markets have a finger in a lot 711 00:45:07,470 --> 00:45:09,750 of pies. Politics, sports, finance. 712 00:45:11,590 --> 00:45:14,550 It's fascinating because you have this many people 713 00:45:16,070 --> 00:45:19,830 it touches. Very rarely do you see something. I think the last time 714 00:45:20,550 --> 00:45:24,390 the financial world saw something this crazy in this out of left field 715 00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:28,000 was probably crypto. And again, crypto was very 716 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,760 rebellious, very, almost anarchistic at first. And then 717 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,600 to your point, I don't quite see it on the same page or the same 718 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,360 panel when I log into my 401k and I don't see 719 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,200 it next to precious metals. But the way people kind of refer to bitcoin prices 720 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,040 and things like that has a feel of like. Well, we're kind of talking about 721 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,840 ounces of gold, Right. It's not exact. You know what I mean? Right. It's 722 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,890 not exactly the same, but it went from kind of being this crazy, crazy weird 723 00:45:52,890 --> 00:45:55,250 thing that only hackers and criminals use 724 00:45:56,450 --> 00:46:00,210 and super nerds to now it's kind of just a. It's just 725 00:46:00,850 --> 00:46:04,250 an element or two on a dashboard. Right. That's 726 00:46:04,250 --> 00:46:07,770 fascinating. And you're right. Like, will this do the same thing? Right. You know, 727 00:46:07,770 --> 00:46:11,410 bitcoin had a lot of. And all the cryptocurrencies kind of had a 728 00:46:12,450 --> 00:46:16,090 very shady birth process. Right? Not 729 00:46:16,090 --> 00:46:19,700 necessarily shady in the bad way, but kind of sketchy. How about that? That's. 730 00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:23,460 That's a better Word. Right. But now you 731 00:46:23,460 --> 00:46:26,980 see these prediction markets as they kind of grow, will they be. 732 00:46:27,140 --> 00:46:30,620 Will they become kind of legitimized, like. Like 733 00:46:30,620 --> 00:46:34,380 crypto did, or will they kind of, you know, will 734 00:46:34,380 --> 00:46:37,860 they not be as successful? I don't know. Like, that's, That's a good point. 735 00:46:38,420 --> 00:46:41,780 I don't know either. And even if your 736 00:46:41,780 --> 00:46:45,140 brokerage doesn't allow you to buy Bitcoin directly, 737 00:46:46,210 --> 00:46:50,010 I'm sure you have access to IBIT and the other ETFs. It can be 738 00:46:50,010 --> 00:46:53,490 in your 401k no matter where you're investing. And 739 00:46:53,570 --> 00:46:57,410 so 10 years ago, did we foresee a world where 740 00:46:57,490 --> 00:47:01,250 I could have crypto in my 401k alongside my VU or 741 00:47:01,250 --> 00:47:05,050 whatever my holding is? That was not the 742 00:47:05,050 --> 00:47:07,250 outcome that I thought it would be. I thought it was either going to be 743 00:47:07,730 --> 00:47:11,410 anarchy, new world order, Bitcoin only, 744 00:47:11,490 --> 00:47:15,250 or zero. And the market found a middle ground, which is really cool. 745 00:47:15,490 --> 00:47:17,890 Yeah, it kind of adapted around it, grew around it. 746 00:47:19,570 --> 00:47:23,210 No, it's true. Because there was a point when might have been on Bloomberg 747 00:47:23,210 --> 00:47:27,050 actually, they were talking about, will crypto ever be. This is like 10 748 00:47:27,050 --> 00:47:30,130 years ago. Will crypto ever be respected? And then 749 00:47:30,450 --> 00:47:34,250 everybody was like, no, that's the third rail. These brokerage 750 00:47:34,250 --> 00:47:37,970 companies will never touch that because it has a stain of or 751 00:47:37,970 --> 00:47:41,520 stench of criminality to it. And here we are. Right. 752 00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:46,040 Like you said, you can either buy it directly through your brokerage or you can 753 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,040 get it indirectly through your brokerage. Right? Yeah, 754 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,160 there's an old line and about. 755 00:47:54,720 --> 00:47:58,400 I don't know, it's kind of not safe for work, but basically saying that I'll 756 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,080 clean it up, I'll put some PC words to it. It was basically 757 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,880 talking about how when a building goes up. It was an architecture 758 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,680 critic. It basically said, even if it's considered ugly when it's made, 759 00:48:11,540 --> 00:48:15,220 as it. As it ages, it still 760 00:48:15,220 --> 00:48:18,660 becomes respectable. The original quote's a little more salty, so I'll leave it at that. 761 00:48:19,220 --> 00:48:22,420 But it's basically like, you know, older sex workers and 762 00:48:23,540 --> 00:48:27,380 old buildings still get respect no matter how they originally were treated. Something 763 00:48:27,380 --> 00:48:31,180 to that effect. Okay. Yeah, interesting. I guess the 764 00:48:31,180 --> 00:48:34,900 same applies to financial products, right? Yeah, I guess so. I 765 00:48:34,900 --> 00:48:37,930 mean, build it in no comm. They say. Right, right. 766 00:48:39,130 --> 00:48:42,970 Everyone wants to know what the next big thing is. It's part of human nature. 767 00:48:43,690 --> 00:48:47,530 It's a good opportunity to produce wealth for yourself. 768 00:48:50,170 --> 00:48:53,730 And this is dominating the news 769 00:48:53,730 --> 00:48:57,050 cycle. Who knows how long that'll last? But man, 770 00:48:57,370 --> 00:48:59,850 it's interesting. That's cool. 771 00:49:01,450 --> 00:49:04,490 I'm fascinated by the API stuff. I'm like, 772 00:49:05,050 --> 00:49:07,610 what's the fun? Because I'm a big sucker for data, obviously, 773 00:49:08,850 --> 00:49:11,850 this podcast, but I'm like, oh, what are sort of the cool things you could 774 00:49:11,850 --> 00:49:15,570 do with this data? I'm going to definitely poke around your API keys and stuff 775 00:49:15,570 --> 00:49:18,530 like that. Amazing. 776 00:49:19,330 --> 00:49:22,250 You can. You can sign up for a free trial on there. Right, right. I 777 00:49:22,250 --> 00:49:25,970 definitely will. If you prefer a web hook, I can. 778 00:49:25,970 --> 00:49:28,250 I can hook you up with a key as well. People are doing some really 779 00:49:28,250 --> 00:49:31,330 cool stuff with it. I mean, especially with the rise of, 780 00:49:32,850 --> 00:49:36,490 you know, AI has really enabled folks to build faster and 781 00:49:36,490 --> 00:49:40,200 smarter. Yep. And so we're seeing a lot of interesting 782 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,400 dashboards. People are building their own dashboards for their investment 783 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,960 strategies. We are working with some 784 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,040 of the AI companies direct as well. It's been a huge growth lever for us, 785 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,440 these AI companies. I mean, the output is only as good as the input. And 786 00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,160 so some of our more proprietary data sets are 787 00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,400 being consumed by the perplexities and their competitors of the world. 788 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,530 Interesting. No, because, like, you know, I think 789 00:50:05,530 --> 00:50:09,050 everybody can be a builder now. Right. And that's. That's, you know. 790 00:50:09,210 --> 00:50:12,570 You know, Candice and I are building actually four products right now 791 00:50:14,010 --> 00:50:16,170 because, you know, ADHD and all. Right. 792 00:50:17,610 --> 00:50:21,410 But the moat 793 00:50:21,410 --> 00:50:24,490 used to be you have an idea you have on the back of a napkin 794 00:50:24,490 --> 00:50:28,290 or whatever or on a whiteboard behind you, and then you build it 795 00:50:28,290 --> 00:50:32,060 someday. Someday never happens. But now the building of the code is 796 00:50:32,060 --> 00:50:35,700 really just a matter of how do you get the AI to put 797 00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:39,460 what's on your head into the computer. Now 798 00:50:39,460 --> 00:50:43,180 the next challenge we're facing is there's a lot more to launching a Sass 799 00:50:43,180 --> 00:50:46,860 than code. Right? It's not idea plus Sass. 800 00:50:47,580 --> 00:50:50,780 Idea plus code equals sass. No, no, no. There's idea plus 801 00:50:51,020 --> 00:50:54,700 Sass plus X, and it's probably more than one variable equals 802 00:50:55,020 --> 00:50:58,200 sas. So we're kind of 803 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,280 learning that now. Right. Because Candice and I, before this call, 804 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,200 we had a conversation. We're like, hey, it looks like somebody else is building something 805 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,840 like what we're talking about. Like, yeah, I'm not surprised, because good 806 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,680 ideas do not happen in isolation. Exactly, exactly. 807 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,200 So where can folks find out more about you and Benzinga? 808 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:21,160 Benzinga.com, where you can read our news. Benzinga.com 809 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,000 APIs where you can find the product offerings. 810 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,800 We build a new product every quarter, so. Oh, cool. Join 811 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,520 our newsletter list and we'll keep you updated. And then 812 00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,440 keep an eye out. You'd be surprised. Your brokerage 813 00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,360 may have little inklings of Benzinga around it. Now that you've 814 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:41,160 heard the name, 815 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,800 I will look for it. Give us a nod with your preferred brokerage. 816 00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,080 There you go. Very cool. And with that, we'll end the 817 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:52,360 show.