Very often you're not in the room when decisions are made.

You need to have somebody who speaks up for you in the good and the bad and the ugly because you don't know what is going on there.

And they can then actually take that feedback as well, bring it back to you, coach you.

I think about a person which inspires me who is good in what I want to do.

I reach out to that person.

Most of the people, 99% of the people, are always willing to help.

But it's a matter of actually reaching out and actually asking that and being clear what you want.

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Welcome back to Lead the Team with number one bestselling author and in demand corporate trainer Ben Fanning.

On this podcast, the world's most innovative senior leaders share their top success strategies to motivate your direct reports, cultivate your top leaders and accelerate your career.

Let's get started.

Hey there everybody and welcome back to Lead the Team.

A fun one coming your way with Horst Gallo, who is chief people officer or over at Orion Innovation.

His global leadership experience includes Catch Us having lived in and worked in over seven countries and moving more than 10 times.

He's also served as a senior leader with IBM for over 20 years and he's an advisor to people tech companies where he's passionate about AI and how this can help transform HR products.

Now, if you're not familiar with Orion Innovation, they're a leading digital transformation and product development services firm with a global team of more than 6,400 employees where they've more than tripled over the last six years.

Horst, welcome to lead the team, sir.

Well, thank you very much for having me, Ben.

Let's roll.

So looking back over your career, was there a moment or an experience that unexpectedly taught you a powerful lesson or shaped the way that you approach challenges today?

Yeah, that's a very good first kind of question around that.

I think one of the most important things was probably when I moved out of Germany because back then that was like 25 years or so ago.

I did not speak English.

I wanted to learn English, I wanted to live in London.

And then I gave notice, I was trying to find a job.

And then luckily a week or so before I moved, I moved to London, joining IBM and of course I moved there not knowing the language properly.

I could say a few things, I could order a beer, but not much more than that.

And then of course that taught me a lot of things around resiliency, growth, mindset and how it worked to approach things.

And interestingly enough, I never looked back because I never returned back to Germany, even though the plan actually was to only stay a year.

But now, 25 years later, I've moved and I'm still enjoying it.

Wow, what a time in your career.

Y'all think about it like you want, you know, you want to go in a place, but you don't really speak the language, so you just show up learning to speak the language of corporate, learning to speak the language of IBM and just learning the business language of English.

What did you do to be successful?

Because obviously you stuck around for ib, you know, in IBM for a long time.

Something must have been working for you.

What did you do to go from hey, I can order a beer to hey, I can lead a staff meeting.

Yeah.

So when I, when I joined, I was lucky in the end because they needed a person like, who speaks German in England.

So that helped us a lot to transition around that.

And then of course I also fell into HR because before that I was in insurance, I was selling insurances, doing other things and then getting into HR was really an eye opening thing for me.

I fell in love with it.

And of course 25 years afterwards I'm still here.

But the important thing I think was learning every day and trying to get better, not being afraid of asking for feedback, which is a really important one.

Even though of course I meant in the beginning I was getting a lot of feedback and that feedback was not necessarily very positive, but it helped us overall around getting better.

Yeah, yeah.

For the listeners, don't, don't miss out on that part of Horror Story where like your strength in moving to London and starting for an American company there, your strength was not speaking English, but it was speaking German and they needed someone that could speak German.

And I think a lot of times we, we discount this.

It's almost, it reminds me of the Matt, the Malcolm Gladwell book David and Goliath.

Like a perceived disadvantage might become an advantage in those moments and especially dealing with people.

You were in hr, probably with people in Germany right through the I mean, I just see that really coming together early on in my career.

It was a time when NAFTA was coming on and I went to, I went to the University of Alabama.

But I was hired by a US company to work more in Latin America.

Even though my Spanish wasn't great, but I spoke great English, at least the southern vernacular of English, and was able to make the translation for our friends in Mexico.

And that ended up working out pretty well.

So I don't know what, what a cool part of that story.

Did you, on the English front, did you double down on taking courses and things like that to help accelerate it or just kind of let it evolve through, through working?

Yeah, you know, I used the natural forces back then.

I was relatively young and I had a girlfriend very early on where you needed to communicate in English.

And that of course had a natural advantage because there was no other way to do that.

But in addition to that, of course, joking aside, a lot of things have to do with.

The company provided a lot of help with learning English.

You need to do things.

You were living in an environment of sharing a house with an English family.

So all of this, of course, helps around that.

I think you need to be deliberate when you do things like this and you cannot just jump without a preparation around that.

But having that open mindset, I think is the important thing.

Open mindset.

And I hear that you had the courage to immerse yourself.

Like you could have tried to live with some German folks to make you feel at home in London.

Be like, no, essentially burning the boats here and I'm going to do this thing and learn English.

Oh man, so cool.

And says a lot about your openness as a leader.

Worst.

Now, one of the things that you talk a lot about in today's fast evolving tech world, you're talking a lot about these days about artificial intelligence and technology.

Can you share a time when AI or tech helps solve a problem in a surprising way or in a way that changed the team or changed the way that your team works?

Yeah, I think there's so many examples, of course, especially working with IBM or now with Orion, where technology actually is really involved around that.

But I just take maybe a small example recently, and we were trying to solve actually an issue with engagement where we have lots of people working on client side.

They feel more connected to the client than they feel to us.

And reaching out to them is sometimes complicated because they don't use our email, they use the client's emails, they use their private kind of things around that.

So we were always having difficulties around that.

Then we were exploring a very new company, a startup out of India who are now providing virtual services where it's not a chatbot, but it's a virtual agent who is basically doing everything for you.

They're reaching out to the people by email, by sms, by other things, setting up a call and then having a conversation like you and me are having at the moment.

But it's a chatbot.

And then you can choose, is it anonymous?

Do you want to bring the things forward?

And you can, with a chatbot like that, you can reach out to 100% of the population as often as you want, while otherwise, of course, you would have not that chance.

And that capability around that, that helped us really engage people in a very different way.

Wow.

So how long ago was this?

Was this pretty recent that?

Yes, we were starting probably with that maybe three months or so ago.

And it's really cool because again, you get insights which you otherwise wouldn't get.

You have much more connection and then you can follow up with personal conversation.

Because I do believe that AI is not going to replace a lot of things.

They're going to help us.

And it's the augmentation what is really important around that.

Then you can really focus on the things which are important.

So when the, when we talk about chatbots and whatnot, what kinds of questions were they reaching out?

And like, how did it, how did it go about engaging?

How did the chatbot get engaged with the people where they're going to, going to interact with the chatbot?

Yeah.

So chatbot is the wrong, the wrong, the wrong name.

It's really a virtual agent.

It's, it's a virtual agent.

What's the difference between a chatbot and a virtual agent agent?

Well, I think a chatbot is very much.

You have questions what you pre feed and then you have answers where you put them into drawers.

But I think it is, this virtual agent is more.

It's generative, generative AI.

So they have that capability of speaking natural language.

You give them a topic and based on the themes and some of the notions around that, they can have a conversation with you and they will ask you a question and depending on your answer, they will engage in this, give me more information, asking questions, and then of course in subscribing the things and summarizing it, and it gives you, as a manager or as an HR kind of person, a lot of insights where you can work on afterwards.

Yeah, I love that.

So on the leader side, it's like, man, this can save you a lot of time because you're going to be able to use the people you have in a more effective and efficient way because they're only going to get, you know, interacting with the people that want to communicate, that have the challenge that you're interested in solving and then creating a much more, I guess a like a better meeting of the mind, so to speak.

I'm just curious, like, what's your perspective on when a virtual agent reach that reaches out?

Do they say, hey, I'm a virtual agent sent to you on behalf of this company or do they not always even let them.

Do you just say, hey, just.

Does it matter if they're a virtual agent or not?

They should interact?

Like, should we let them know or doesn't get matters?

Yes.

Well, I do think transparency is a very important one because I think it all starts as trust.

If you as an organization are not able actually to build that trust with the employees, they will not talk to you, they will not talk to a chatbot, they will not talk to anybody else.

But if you are trying to build up that information and giving as well the context of look, you can do it anonymously.

I'm going to use whatever you're going to say, but I'm not going to put a name to it.

But if you're willing to do that, people can reach out and solve the problem around that.

But I think it's the transparency, what we are very often lacking because we are trying to do things because we think it is good because go to a doctor today.

I know if you have seen that.

But recently I went to a doctor.

The first kind of thing was done by a computer, by a machine in front of it and giving you all of the information and getting there.

At one point there was no information that something is used afterwards, you don't trust that organization.

So I think this transparency is really important upfront.

Otherwise anything else is not going to be useful.

Yeah, to be able to say, hey, this is a virtual agent and this is good for you because XYZ click here, let's roll and get that kind of transparency.

Otherwise, as soon as they figure out it's a virtual agent, like I thought I was communicating with a human and it's not.

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So for leaders who are interested in leveraging AI more effectively than just using ChatGPT on the side to like correct their emails or write their speeches or whatever happens to be like, do you really want to integrate it?

Kind of like what you're thinking about from a processing standpoint, what are the questions that they should be asking themselves?

I think the important thing is always what's the use case you're trying to solve?

Because AI today can do many, many different things.

And of course ChatGPT is in the word and the mind of a lot of people, but most of the use cases you can solve with regular AI automation.

Usual things which we were able actually to do maybe three, four, five, six years ago.

Now, of course it's a lot more affordable.

Back then I was lucky, I was working in IBM, we had Watson for free, which we could use actually in the daily kind of activities around that.

And Watson was One of the OGs, one of the originals, right?

That's right.

Yeah, that's exactly right.

But of course that's a transition today.

Many of these things are very inexpensive.

It's easy actually to get to.

You see ChatGPT, I mean, you can use it for free in many of the instances around it.

Of course it has its downside.

You have to know what is going on.

But today there's so many things out there and.

But when you start off with saying, what are you trying to achieve?

What are you trying to solve?

Then it's much easier actually to get to a solution around it.

And as I said before, very often it's not this generative AI what everybody is talking about, but it's more simpler kind of solutions around it.

And then you can always get more advanced into, into areas.

What's the worst leadership advice that you've heard?

Worst?

That's a very good one.

Maybe it's cultural as well, but when I was back in Germany, I would always hear like, okay, just keep your head down, work and don't ask.

And I think that is very stupid because when, when people and the manager around you, they don't know what you are trying to do, what you're willing to do, like they will not consider you for roles because actually they are thinking like, oh, that person, he likes to be here, he doesn't want to move somewhere else or he doesn't want to do this kind of roles.

Around it, or he's not passionate or she is not passionate.

I think you have to let people know what you are interested in.

You have to be open to the things and talk about that on a regular basis.

And I think that's where, if I may say that the American culture, I think, is a lot better than the European or the Asian one, because then it's more about being the same, connecting the US Here very early on in school, you talk about how you can talk about yourself, how you can bring yourself forward, and that creates opportunities and it creates innovation.

That I think is for me a big change and that I'll make sure that I will not repeat to other people.

So very good point there.

And no doubt bringing the personal side of that, raising your hand, participating is really big.

One question is, what's your advice for people who feel anxiety around that?

Or they're like, hey, I don't want to raise my hand because I'm going to get ridiculed.

Or it feels like too big a risk.

They're like, hey, I can just do my job and go home at the end of the day and I'll have a happy life.

What do you think?

Yeah, I think.

I think everybody has to decide, of course, what is right for them, because what is good for one person is not good for the other.

But what I find is if you're surrounding yourself with a network of people, you have a lot more ability around that.

And of course, then coaching, mentoring, sponsorship, especially for people who don't feel comfortable around that, is really important.

And sponsorship is another important part because very often you're not in the room when decisions are made.

So you need to have somebody who speaks up for you in the good and the bad and the ugly, because you don't know what is going on there.

And they can then take that feedback as well, bring it back to you, coach you, or provide that mentorship.

What do you need in order to do that?

I think that's an important kind of aspect around it.

Great, great point there.

And so people, some people rise, rising leaders might be sitting there thinking, well, I don't really know who would speak up for me in the room.

Like in that, in those bigger conversations, what's a step that they should take to start to strengthen their network or maybe identify a mentor or an advocate for them?

Yes.

So I always think that, I don't know, there's maybe this myth or so, at least in some companies where you say, oh, you can only have one mentor and you need to have hr actually Assign a mentor.

I think that's not working.

I think if I want to have a mentor, I think about a person which inspires me or a person who is good in what I want to do, and then I reach out to that person.

Of course, you need to get to that ability around that.

But my experience in the last 25 years is that most of the people, 99% of the people, are always willing to help.

They're not saying no, but it's the matter of reaching out and asking that and being clear what you want.

Because there's different things.

You can want a sponsorship where somebody is in the room which is speaking up for you.

Sometimes you need a mentor who can give you advice in different things.

Maybe it is career.

Maybe it is a specific kind of role.

Maybe it is you want to go somewhere very completely different around that.

Where this coaching where you just need somebody who can make you ask the questions yourself and get to that point.

But it is about speaking up and finding that and not waiting for somebody else to assign somebody.

Love that.

It's.

The word that comes to mind is you're telling us to be proactive.

That's right.

Don't wait around for someone to solve your problem.

And to be honest, I really believe that, like, you're never too old to employ this strategy.

But, gee, if you do it while you're in high school or middle school, are you.

The earlier in your career you use this, the more you're.

You're giving it time to accelerate your results.

And maybe in addition to that, what I found is that any kind of.

Because of course, now I'm at the point where people ask me for advice, I always get something out of the relationship as well.

So it's like a reverse mentorship or so.

Because if somebody young reaches out, I always take that opportunity and just say, hey, what's new in the tech world?

What.

What are you using?

Which could help me.

And this is a very, very cool.

Because I'm normally not on this.

New tools and I don't know what is going on, but that helps me get the insight.

And people feel very good about it because they say they're not wasting my time, but they're giving something back.

Love that.

So this is for the executives that listen to the show too.

Who are you mentoring and what are you gleaning from them?

Is easy to, like, sit back in your chair and cross your arms and drink your coffee and just let them ask you about your experience.

But you're saying, hey, flip the tables.

Ask them what tech they're using, what social media?

I mean, I'll tell you this, if you have a 13 year old daughter, if I ask my daughter, I'm like, hey, show me, show me some cool things on your iPhone that you're doing.

I, she always has many tricks that she's showing me.

Like I didn't even know and I consider myself pretty simple.

But they, that's exactly right.

Yeah, they're much more patient.

They're willing to sit with the technology, to play with the technology and figure stuff out versus me.

I'm like, okay, yes, I'm going to go to YouTube and try to figure this out and if I don't get it for two videos, I'm like, next.

Yes.

No, that's right.

And again, it's not just technology.

Right.

Because when you look at today's workforce, we have what, five generations or so in the, the environment around that.

So it's very likely that you have two or three generations to manage.

If you're a leader and how to interact with them, what is on their mind is a very important one.

And that's a great opportunity because people feel good about being asked questions and explaining things.

Yeah.

So good man.

Well, horse starting to wrap this up.

What books, podcast or music do you recommend for someone who's already in the C suite or someone who's on a mission to get there?

Well, books, I, I love reading, so I, I read far too much, I guess, if I have time around that.

But I think leadership.

I love Patrick Lenzione because his style is just very engaging and it's even for, for people who don't like business books, who are not geeks like me, you can read them.

You have this way of showing the story and then getting to the points which are important in a much, much easier way around that podcast I do, I don't do so much because I don't travel in that part.

But what I like a lot is podcasts in different kind of areas.

Different.

I mean, so I was working in enterprise for a very, very long time and I was always listening to the founder for LinkedIn, what's his name?

Reid Hoffman.

So yes, so he has a podcast or he had one in the very beginning.

Masters of scale.

It's slightly different now because he doesn't do it himself anymore.

He does more cool stuff now with AI.

But the beginning of it, he used to talk to all of these tech leaders and the big scalers and there were super big lessons in that.

Not only, of course for startups, but for any leader around that.

Because managing in uncertainty is something which we all need to do on a daily basis.

Yeah.

So thinking about that and thinking about leaders facing uncertainty.

You mentioned tech and there's a lot of stuff out there from an uncertainty standpoint.

There's US elections, there's always something going on.

What are, what are some strategies or what have you found helpful for your personal journey and managing uncertainty?

Yes, I think uncertainty change, I think it's the only constant today because of course, any company or so is going through two or three or four different transformations at the same time.

It's not anymore sequential.

You do something and then you do the next.

It's happening in parallel around that.

And I think the important thing is you need to be comfortable with change.

You need to embrace technology as well, because very often it's connected around that.

But for me, the starting point is growth mindset.

Always trying to learn, being open to that.

Because once you start off with that equation, it's not so much about how it disrupts you, but what can you do differently?

How can you maybe see things in a different area around that?

That I think is for me the most important thing today because it's not going to change.

The part of transformation is probably going to increase and not actually decrease.

Yeah.

So how are you thinking about instilling this mindset in 6,400 employees around the world?

Because yes, you know, they people bring their own backgrounds, their own personal preferences.

But it sounds like this is pretty important to your business.

You know, everyone having this gross mindset or thinking about this, and dang it, I mean, you're the chief people officer, so you might be the chief mindset officer too.

From that standpoint, think about AT skill.

Yes, doing that with your teams.

The good thing is, when you work in an IT services company, skills is really the biggest thing because your clients are paying for the work, what you do.

So if your skills are outdated, you're not getting a job anymore, you're not getting a project, you're not getting things.

And we have a lot of engineers in the company and they like to work on the cutting edge kind of part.

They're only on the cutting edge with work when they have the right kind of skills around it.

So for us, learning growth mindset is a key component around it.

We have parts where we offer to everybody as much learning as they want.

Everything is enabled by the company.

But then at times you look at Gen AI as an example.

One and a half or two years or so ago, we had to get in an Initiative to say, let's train everybody on Gen AI, that everybody has the right kind of mindset around it.

And of course, you go through the company, you start off as a leader to role model some of the things.

You ask questions, you do things and then you go there.

That's starting off with the mindset.

And I do think role modeling as a leader is a very, very important part because I only asked my team to do what I have done myself.

That is either with kind of mandatory training or things like AI, where I start off doing things.

Because if you're not willing to do it yourself as a leader, why should the team do that?

Yeah.

So good.

Yeah, yeah.

Let the record show.

Ask them.

How do you instill a growth mindset in your team?

Number one thing is role model it yourself.

Yes.

If you don't know what's going on with Gen AI, you don't feel comfortable talking about it.

There's one thing to know what's going on, but the other one is to share it and talk about it with your team.

Then don't expect them to.

That's, you know, they're gonna.

But if you role model it, they're much more likely to embrace change and keep the saw sharp, so to speak.

So, Horus, starting to wind this up here, my friend.

What is your partying thought for our listeners today?

Well, we talk a lot about the interesting word we live in.

The word is of course, very divided.

Unfortunately, we live in a very volatile world, I think is the word actually people are using around that and it's only going to increase.

I heard the other day that of course, 40, maybe even some people actually say 70% of the jobs are going to be changed by AI going forward in the next few years.

So the only way to help and do with that is to embrace change, to have a growth mindset and to embrace technology.

Because there's no job in the world which is not going to be influenced by AI in the future.

I think that is my parting thought and I think this is exciting.

But of course it can be scary for people.

But if you have a positive mindset to that, you can influence it.

Yeah, what a great cap on this.

It all goes back to how you think about it.

Is AI is an AI, Is it a threat or is it an opportunity?

Well, it's what you're making it and how you're role modeling your approach for your team.

So, so good.

Thanks for coming on lead the team today, sir.

Absolutely.

Thanks for having me.

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