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Welcome to the Atlanta Tennis Podcast.

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We talk with coaches, club managers, industry business professionals,

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In today's episode, Bobby and I talk with Jack Broudy,

who I know is the YouTube coach with the cowboy hat,

but he's much more than that.

Have a listen and let us know what you think.

[Music]

Who are you and why do we care?

[Music]

Well, I guess in the tennis world, which is really the only one we all care about,

I'm a guy who went through the juniors, played college ball.

In the juniors, I did all right.

I had a decent ranking, made it to Kalamazoo.

I didn't crack an egg at Kalamazoo, but you know, and then I played college ball,

D1 and D3 tennis both.

I played UC San Diego my last two years in the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

My first two and, you know, and why should we care?

Let's see, and then I played a little pro.

Got my butt kicked by Samperous and Dubs, Luke Jensen and Dubs.

And I had a couple good wins here and there.

I actually had a few good wins.

I beat Francisco Gonzales, who was a good player back in the day.

I beat him 0 and 1.

I was the match of my life.

You know, everyone's got one.

Everyone's got one.

I've been a pretty good coach.

I worked a lot with guys like Sam Query, Steve Foreman, who was number one in the nation in the

juniors.

Eric Riley won Orange Bowl doubles.

Stevie Jensen, I worked with him quite a bit.

I worked with his father a lot.

Steve Jensen's senior, our rest is soul.

Good man.

So I worked with all those guys.

Coco Vanderwae, a little bit.

Guy Fritz, Peter Smith at USC.

I worked with him a lot.

He bought a lot of my products.

Used to be called the eight board.

It was a double swivel I patented.

We'll talk about technique later.

But yes, so I worked with Peter quite a bit.

And a lot of other coaches as well.

The Chapel Hill coach.

Paul, you know, Paul's father.

Actually, he's the coach at Chapel Hill.

So I've worked with a lot of coaches and players over the years, written a few books.

And I guess the real reason you should care now is because my quest is kind of in the same

since I was 14 when I was watching the finals of some tournament that I had lost in the quarters

of pretty typical lives.

You know, I never lost the early rounds, but I never made it.

You know, I was never, you know, that well known as a player, but I'll never forget it when I was

14. I'm watching these guys warming up.

Wasn't even the match.

It was just a warm up.

And I'm thinking to myself, why does it look so easy?

Why do some players make it look so easy?

And why does it look like, you know, more like a virtuoso?

You know, I play a little guitar and I practice hard.

My fingers get shredded.

But then you go watch a guy like Larry Carlton or some great guitarist and you're like,

I'm going to go home and burn my guitar because, you know, I'm nothing.

I'm literally nothing.

Well, that's how I felt in the tennis world.

I was like, well, you know, I did okay until you got to play a really good player,

someone from a UCLA or like Kalamazoo.

I can't remember where I played.

I meant, I played once Hans Guiltermister.

And I played some really good players and I'm like, you know, what is the difference?

Why do they look like it's breathing?

And I look like I'm trying, you know, I guess it's the difference between a

grinder.

I guess I was a grinder and a baller.

And I wanted to be a baller.

And my whole life, I said, you know, that's all I care about.

I want to be the baller.

I don't want to be a grinder.

I don't want to have to get to net because my groundees can't hang with his groundees.

You know, that's what I did.

And that's how I won some of my matches.

You know, I grinded.

I got to net as fast as I could.

Play a little BS tennis up there.

I had quick hands, you know, quick hands, good overhead.

But I didn't want to play like that.

I was like, no, I want to be able to just stay back and spank the ball.

And like one of my students used to tell me,

came members, Warren Wooder.

He won the NCAA.

He's a good player.

He just got off the tour.

Irfan was four men.

He was number one in the juniors.

But I think it was four men.

He just, I mean, he used to tell people,

I can hit a winner from any part of the court with my forehand.

That's what I wanted.

And he was my student, right?

I taught him for 14 years.

From time he was four to the time he was,

you know, graduated college.

And, you know, I made him great.

And, you know, through my, this technique we'll talk about today.

But I wanted what he has.

You know, I wanted to be the guy who could hit a forehand

from literally any place on the court as a winner.

So that's, that's, you know, that was my quest.

And it was, it hasn't changed since I was a little kid.

And then lucky for me, I discovered an obscure,

an obscure science called projective,

many sciences, ones called projective geometry,

the other spatial dynamics.

It's all about nonlinear motion,

meaning, you know, how to, it's really the science of infinity,

which is, I found fascinating.

It was up in San Fritz Sacramento.

I'd go up there to these, these, these,

this college called the Steiner College.

And it was brilliant, brilliant stuff.

And I'd get home and I'd be playing the best of my life

after not playing the whole weekend,

just taking all this in about, you know, reality.

Forget tennis, you know, reality, you know,

verticality, horizontal, you know, gravity.

And geometry, stuff that you would, you know,

study in a college.

And I was just like, wow, I've never, you know,

I must have lived under a rock.

Because this guy Rudolph Steiner was fascinating.

He was from the 1800s.

And you know, things like a guitar string moves in a figure eight.

Didn't know that hummingbirds wings move in a figure eight.

Didn't know that.

So then I started putting things together back in 1998.

And I'm like watching Marcelo Rios,

most people don't like, but I loved him.

Because I didn't care, I still don't care about personalities.

I'm a purist.

Give me the best looking players.

And Marcelo was, he was kind of fetter before fetter.

People don't know that.

But he was a five foot six lefty, five seven, very short.

But I saw him out a caffeine who was about six four.

And a monster.

I saw him out ace him in a match.

And I'm like, what the hell?

How is that possible?

And he could out hit these guys,

same with the agacy.

He wasn't a big guy.

And that's where I started going, well,

maybe there's something to do with this

science of natural motion, right?

The science of a tree blowing in a wind or a flag.

How can you predict it?

Why does it shred at the end of the flag?

Or a bullwhip?

Any of that stuff, I was fascinated.

So I started just obsessing about it for years.

And I started to see it in agacy.

It was obvious you saw it in his racket, right?

And he saw his rise and fall.

And it was very continuous, like fetter.

And he was unlike the others who were stopping,

like Rodic would stop on his forehand and then start again.

And it wasn't nearly as pretty as Roger.

And so back then with Agacy and Rios,

they were the first two that really got me.

I said, how is this?

And so I started realizing, wow, they used this power in nature.

You know, these fundamentals that you find in nature,

they use them to a tee.

And that's why they're so beautiful and so balanced and so effortlessly powerful.

Kind of like when you used to watch Tiger Woods, right?

Everything looks slow and small.

Until the stroke was over and you go, wow, that was huge.

But you never could figure out the part of the stroke that was huge.

Because it was amorphius, right?

It was in an analog system, kind of like a bullwhip, right?

You move your hand slowly in this figure eight.

But it naturally by the time it gets to the tip of the whip,

because of the law of conservation, which I learned back in the

late 1900s, the law of conservation,

you have to have as much energy in the lighter parts of the whip.

So it moves quicker.

And then in the end it breaks the sound barrier.

And I was like, holy mackerel, I mean, this is huge.

And that's, and that's why I think people should listen.

Because I'm, I'm tennis is taught pretty much the same way.

Whatever your style is, it's your observation and then your tips.

That's it.

I mean, I'll care if you're watching,

messy or who it is.

It doesn't matter.

It's still their observation of what they see.

And then they give you a tip.

Oh, do this with your hand.

Do this with your foot.

But it's like taking a picture of a moving flag in the wind.

There's no way.

One picture can tell you anything, nothing at all.

You have to encompass the whole movement, right?

And then you can go, oh, well, it works like this because,

you know, the sail loves it or the flag loves.

Because wind is nonlinear, right?

It's not wind is never straight or any.

You know, there's no line in wind.

So it's always hitting both sides of the flag.

So that's what creates the figure eight in a flag is

is something that's already nonlinear, which is wind and so is water.

And, and, and so I started taking all these things and it was rudimentary back in 98, 99, 2000.

But it was basically talking about this figure eight motion and how it translates into tennis.

And then over the years I took more and more courses learning, wow, you don't know nothing, Jack,

because yeah, I guess his arm doesn't move in a figure eight, but look deeper.

Because the courses were always telling me to look deeper.

And then you saw his hips would move in a figure eight.

And the arm would move counter to the hips.

So when the hips would move to the right, his hand would actually move forward a little bit.

You're not looking for you'd never see it.

And that created a coil.

That created a roundness in his arm.

And that's what made it so beautiful, but nobody looks for it.

So what would they do?

They'd take a picture of Aguicy when his racket was coming in the back, right?

And they'd stop and they go see, see how he he breaks his wrist.

See the lag, you know, lag, you know, you tell, you tell a guy,

you tell someone who can't find his ass with both hands.

You tell a non-athlete to lag, that ball's going over the fence.

Okay, so things like lag and load and unit turn.

It's not that they're raw, even.

It's just, they don't help really because you don't understand the whole,

you know, the holistic, the entirety of the motion.

Kind of like taking a picture of that flag in the wind.

One picture doesn't mean it.

Ten pictures don't mean anything.

You have to understand what's going on through, you know,

laws of geometry and then you go, oh, okay, I get it.

And yeah, my students do great.

I mean, I mean, what do I have?

Sixty probably in my heyday.

And I would say 45, got full scholarships.

Six or seven went on to play WTA or ATP.

Sam got to be 12 in the world.

So I would say we've got a pretty good system,

but I guess more importantly than that, I'm talking a lot.

But more importantly than that is the kids that couldn't find their ass with both hands.

Sure, Sam was a great athlete.

Trust me, he was a great athlete.

I hit with him the first time he was 11.

He hit a heavy ball at 11.

So and Stevie Johnson, guy played since he was two years old.

He's and his father was a pro.

Good friend of mine, Steve Sr.

And so there are special athletes.

But what's more important is you see these fundamentals in nature.

You can take a kid that has zero athletic ability, none.

And make him look like a pretty player because they're smart.

And if they go, oh, okay, I line up to the 45 and this and that.

And I keep my hips continuous.

Oh my god.

And they look beautiful.

And that's I think that's probably the biggest part of it.

Because I think there's so much.

There's so much being left on the table now.

You know, people are going to other sports because oh, I stink of tennis.

And I don't have a thousand hours a month to play.

I'm not going to pay that kind of money.

I'm not going to give it that kind of time.

But if they knew, if they knew what we knew,

then they would go, oh, my god, I have a shot.

I don't even have to play more than twice a week.

And I can look like I can be steady.

I can look like a good player.

And I can feel like a player.

So I guess that's why I think I'm on this show.

And that's why I think I'm talking to your folks.

I want to appreciate that. Bobby might be the most involved why we should care, answer.

We've ever heard to this point.

And I want to for those just listening, not watching on YouTube.

I want to compliment Jack.

I want to talk to you.

We've I've followed you for years.

And you're known to me as the guy in the cowboy hat on a tennis court.

That just doesn't happen that often, right?

I got one back there.

I can't see it behind you here in the video.

Yeah.

And it's one of those things that just it's good.

It's branding.

You know, we talk about that.

It's a personal brand.

But what a lot of people might not notice is what you've done with your logo

for non-linear tennis, which is the hat that is the infinity symbol with the NT.

I want to congratulate you on that.

That is well, well found.

Good choice.

I get no credit.

Speaking players that I hate to say this live, but I won't mention their names.

They're at a New Jersey.

I give them lessons online.

He and his son and son never played.

And not a good athlete.

I mean, I say not a good athlete.

Father was a big time graphic designer for a big company.

And I made his son.

His son looks good now.

I mean, and we only did it two months, two months.

Kid looks great.

And he's playing great.

You're going to play on his high school team.

He's so happy.

He loves tennis.

They're playing indoors.

He and his father play all the time.

And I guess I kind of changed their lives.

I mean, I got a really nice Christmas thing from him saying,

Jackie with a highlight of our year in 2024.

We just can't, yeah, it was really felt nice.

It always feels nice, you know?

And he said I was fooling around.

And he sketched something.

I noticed on a piece of paper.

And it was the logo you see.

And I said, "Dude, that's incredible."

He says, "If you want, I can clean it up and fix it up."

He says, "I'm retired now."

And he's a young guy in his early 50s.

But he was a big time graphic designer, I guess, for a big company.

And he did it for me.

I didn't even ask.

It was really touching.

And then he just expanded on it.

And he gave me like 25, 50 burp.

You know, I don't know how many versions.

Different colors.

And he gave me my color scheme.

And he always says anything I can do to help.

When you help someone with their tennis,

and all your people listening,

are going to know this.

When someone's playing good tennis.

And it means that much to them.

It changes their whole life.

They're happier.

They're more confident.

They walk around with a smile.

If you get bagel, or if you double fault four times in a doubles,

when your partner looks at you like, "Dude, what are you even doing here?"

You suck.

I mean, it really makes you want to crawl in a hole and die.

And it's true.

I mean, you can, you know, everyone we all laugh about it.

But it's true.

I mean, you get suicidal.

And even the best players, look at them.

You know, look at, I mean, the best players,

Osaka, I mean, a lot of them have nervous breakdowns.

I mean, even Sabah Lanky, you see her in the finals.

And she double-foughts twice in a row.

And it looks like, "Oh no, the wheels are falling off.

The bus here, you know, is not looking."

And she looks like she's just going to die out there.

So at the highest levels, people get angst.

So can you imagine the people that lose in the first round all the time?

So tennis is so important to people.

But anyway, that's back to that story.

I guess it was real important to he and his son.

And he was so happy about his son.

And his son is so happy, you know,

because he was never an athlete.

There was no sporty light.

And he wasn't good at sports.

And now he's a good tennis player and took us two months.

So yeah, so my friend, I'll say his first name, Andy,

over in New Jersey.

Thank you.

You really, I mean, he blew my mind with that logo.

Yeah.

I appreciate it.

It's fantastic.

I get no credit for it.

And you do because nobody else is going to know that story until now.

So yeah.

But in that case, how do you help him?

So I want to jump right in if you don't mind.

Because you're talking about something that you have figured out

that needs to be shared with the world.

And you call it non-linear tennis.

I've watched a bunch of your videos.

You do a really good job of showing what's going on.

Because there's anatomy and there's physics.

And there's all the things Bobby and I talk about with our students as well.

And word teaching is like, there's so much to these people we want to explain to them

to answer all the questions of why the tennis player has.

Why this?

Why that?

Well, I can't explain the math.

But you've got some products that help with some of those visuals.

And we can't go through that today.

We'll go through that in a follow-up conversation.

But as best you can without the visuals.

Can you talk to us about your non-linear tennis?

Yeah, yeah.

Sometimes I get right on court with people.

With this kid I didn't.

I just saw him.

I told his dad before we get started.

I just want to get to know people a little.

I said, send me a video.

I do that a lot.

And it's him and his son.

And they're poking the bus.

This looked like glorified pickle.

It was awful.

It was awful.

And I said, man, I said, let's do this.

Before we even get started, let's not even go on the court.

And our first lesson.

And I remember it was a Monday and I said, let's meet at your house.

And I said, you need to get the swivels.

So he got the swivels.

I think he bought everything.

But I didn't tell him to.

But I said, you got to get the swivels.

Because I had to make his son, it's kind of like dropping a pebble in water.

You know, when you drop a pebble in water,

the rings exponentially get larger, right?

And they say the same.

It's just larger, but the same exact form.

And that's sort of one of the rules of infinity right there.

And I knew if I couldn't get this kid to move his inner body, right?

I mean, we would have no luck at all with his tennis.

So the first thing I had to do was get him to move like an athlete,

like a shortstop who can catch and throw on the same motion, right?

Shortstop is always the best athlete on the team.

Because he's the only one on the team who can catch and throw in one motion.

Right?

Everyone else catches like I was a second base and center field when I played little league.

Because I couldn't do it.

I would catch the ball.

I had a great arm and I could catch anything and I was fast.

But I would catch it step and throw like an average decent athlete.

But shortstop on my team, he was really great athlete.

You know, he just everyone just thought he risted it.

But now as I'm older, I realize because I tried to rist it and I would just be wild.

But I realized he was connected to his core, right?

So he had this catch and throw in one motion.

And that's what's so amazing about the shortstop.

But anyway, I knew if I couldn't get this kid,

his inner working is right, his hips to work.

Because that's your core.

It's another complaint I have with tennis.

Everyone talks about the shoulders.

But that's the tail wagging the dog.

That's not your core, the shoulders, right?

The core is closer to the center of your body.

Right?

If you took yoga, they call it the Dante end.

It's just above your belly button.

But it's your hips basically.

So the first thing I did was we got in the, in his house and I,

we were doing a Zoom like we're doing here, fellas.

And I said, you know, put your fingers together and like you're making a pointer

with your index fingers.

And draw figures.

Get on your swivels and draw a figure eight.

And describe the swivels for me.

There are little discs that help me pivot.

Won't describe those for me.

Yeah, the swivels are basically, I used to have a product

back in 2000.

I patented a product called the eight board.

Now I just have the swivels because I had too many complaints with taller players

because I was working with some pros.

And they wanted a wider stance.

Well, I couldn't make this in my mold any wider.

Unfortunately, it cost me 70 plus grand.

But that's, that's, that's, that's not my bureau over that one.

But so I created the swivels because then you can use them for little kids

because you can put them real close.

But yeah, they're just free.

Think of a lazy Susan.

Basically, it's like a lazy Susan.

So I developed these and our new swivels are super sweet.

And they're really, they're like ice now.

They're just great.

And so I said, get on your swivels.

And I said, now let's, so the first thing I did because he was terribly,

he was falling off this and that.

He wasn't an athlete.

It wasn't, let's put it this way.

It certainly wasn't a natural athlete.

And so after about five minutes, ten minutes,

he's moving really nicely.

And then I said, okay, now when you swivel to the left,

pick up your right foot, spin around.

He couldn't do it.

But eventually he got his vertical axis together.

Because that's important, right?

If you spin a top, if the vertical axis isn't true,

it's going to flop over real quick.

But if the vertical axis is true, right?

It spins for a long, long, long time.

And because it has a 45 degree point atop.

All these things, nobody thinks about it.

But that's how a top works.

It's a 45 degree angle.

And you spin it.

So centrifugal force with a vertical axis that's true

will spin for a long, long time.

So the first thing we did was an hour of just swiveling

in the house, doing the figure eight.

And by the time we were finished,

and I said, okay, feel your forehand, feel your backhand.

All of a sudden, in his living room,

the kids starting to look like a player after like 45 minutes.

So that was the first thing I did with him.

Was, was teach him how to move his inner body.

Because I knew if we got his inner body to move,

I could get it. So he understood a little bit more.

And then the outer body would follow, right?

Like the pebble and water.

Except for instead of being a circle, it's two circles to figure eight.

I was going to say that leads us into the figure eight infinity shape, right?

That's right.

Because the figure eight has more power than just a circle.

Like guys like Conor's, he had a simple rotation, right?

He had a very centrifugal stroke.

And it was good.

But it's not Federer.

It's not Rios.

It's not Sinner.

It's not any of the way they play today at all.

That figure eight is a little more complex, right?

So a little bit more complex.

And it creates a lot more power.

And I learned that through my courses, right?

The hummingbird is the fastest animal on the planet.

Its wings move in a figure eight.

A horse, they move in a figure eight, a tiger.

All the predators, they have this figure eight motion.

And it's fascinating to me.

So yeah, so I had to get this kid's inner body working.

And once we got that working, that made my life a lot easier.

Then we went to the court the very next day.

Because they were really, he wanted his son to learn fast.

So they did one of my courses, which is every day, for eight weeks.

Except for the weekends.

I take weekends off.

Well, if I can, if I can interrupt, how do you convince, and this is one of the things,

I think tennis coaches in general have the struggle with,

how do you convince the client that some of the, some of the work that needs to be done is not on a tennis court.

There is some physical work to do.

We do, we add some Pilates, we incorporate Pilates into our work.

Yes, because we've got some a bunch of seven year olds that have never done anything but work on an iPad.

So they don't, they can't do a plank.

They can't do even the shadow swing that we want them to do to keep it going.

So we're playing there, Sean.

We want those things to happen in that fluid motion, whether it's specific to the non-linear tennis system of yours,

or something similar.

But we incorporate that.

How do you convince them to say, guys, especially when it's cold outside?

If you've got fires burning down your town, like whatever's going on outside that keeps you from the tennis courts,

you could be working and getting better, especially just even in your athleticism and how much that helps.

Well, I mean, first, I think you got to know your stuff.

You know, you can't just parent something.

And that is a problem because then the parents go, well, I'm going to take some from you.

And then after I've done with you, I'm going to go over here because I heard he's really good with footwork

and I heard he's really good with serving.

And the parents become, it's brutal on the kids.

It's brutal on the kids.

And I think it's really brutal on the parents too because it's the blind leading, the blind.

You know, they don't know what they're doing either.

They're just always thinking, oh, he'll tell me something different.

And that's kind of where I'm at with this whole program of mine.

It's like, no, no, no, we have to change the idea of taking instruction.

Tips are, I mean, they're fine and all, but to me, it's dark ages.

If you're taking a lesson, all your guys giving you tips and then say, do this drill with this tip.

That's the dark ages of tennis, in my opinion.

And it's true. I mean, it really is the dark ages.

I've seen players take lessons for 20 years and not get any better.

But how do I convince the parent? Well, I'm lucky.

I have a reputation a little bit.

So I don't have to.

But I have a lot of certified pros in San Diego, LA, Chicago, New York.

And they don't get crap from their students because they know their stuff.

And it's irrefutable.

I mean, can you tell me that the vertical axis and the horizontal axis, horizontal axis?

Okay, think of those two.

One's up straight up and down, one's ladder.

Can you honestly tell me that the 45 degree angle doesn't bisect those two?

Go ahead and try.

You can't.

The 45 degree angle.

You have people argue with this.

This basic.

Never.

I mean, that's, they can't.

That's just it.

They can argue with the point of lag or loop or take your racket straight back.

Yeah, okay.

Punch whatever whatever it is this year.

What's bumper sticker we're using this year?

Yeah, whatever bumper sticker to buggy whip.

Bugs a good one.

I mean, they can argue with that.

But they can't argue that the 45 degree angle bisects the 90 degree angle.

Go ahead and tell me it does.

Right.

And they can't.

Or how efficient, how efficient the sign curve is if we're actually trying to use math in the

in the anatomy of what we're trying to accomplish.

Yeah, it's impossible.

You can't refute it.

And the fact that there's only two infinities in the world.

One is a circle, right?

Never stops.

Never, you know, never starts.

Never stops.

And the other is the infinity or the figure eight.

Sideways, right or straight.

It doesn't matter either way.

That never starts and never stops.

You can't refute things like that.

Gravity.

Nope.

Can't refute it.

You know.

So that's how I think you get to parents is you educate people.

But when you're a buzz word guy, which is what I think, you know, 99%, I got 1%.

But my pros are great.

I swear you take a lesson from Claudio and New Jersey or New York.

He's amazing.

And he puts out all the great players.

Or what's his name?

Javier and Chicago.

He works with the number one guy in the nation in the boys 12s.

My guys are crushing John Carusoza and L.A.

They crush it because I'm sorry to interrupt again.

When you talk about your guys, so these people using your system, they don't work for you.

They work with you.

What is your relationship with these other coaches?

I'm close with them.

We're friends now.

But they've all gone through a certification course and they know they're stuff.

So you will offer a certification based on your system?

Yes.

And I send students to them like I'm no longer in SoCal.

I was there for a lifetime 45, 46 years.

And I'm no longer there.

So when someone goes, oh, I'm coming to San Diego.

I don't worry.

See Dean.

Dean's amazing.

See Dave.

Dave's great.

I've got half a dozen guys there.

So you know, these guys, they know what they're talking about.

And no one goes hopping from student to student.

I mean, I kept forming.

I told you for 14 years, from four to 18, he never took a lesson.

Neither did Warren from anyone else.

Warren started four with me.

Never took a lesson from anyone else.

Sam Quirry, I gave him a ton of lessons, not a ton, a lot of lessons and a lot of tennis

camps. He would come to my camp.

But his coach, what Tim was a certified coach.

So so Sam the whole way through, same with Steve Johnson,

senior, of course, he liked to work with his own son, even though I worked with Stevie

occasionally too.

Steve and his son were thickest thieves, right?

They were really close.

And so but but he had Stevie on an eight board and all that stuff, doing the stuff, 45,

you know, we would lay the lines on the court with the 45 degrees in the sine wave you mentioned.

So all those guys were brought up with it.

A same with Guy Fritz.

I know he used the eight board.

I think I sold him one couple weeks before I left California.

And his son's doing okay.

Yeah, he's doing good.

And he also coached a girl named Coco Vanderwey, who I worked with as well.

And she was very good.

She got to 26 in the world.

She was good.

She was very good.

But anyway, so yeah, so I don't think, you know, you can argue with math or geometry.

You know, you just can't.

When someone says load, I always say, okay, now I'm a doofus.

How much did I load?

90%, 80%, 60%, 40%, I can never answer that.

Because it can feel thing.

And that is what I think.

That's why I said earlier.

The tennis world is leaving, I think, a billion dollars on the table.

They're leaving it because all these people they get frustrated because they try the load in the lag,

or the grip in the rip, or whatever, or whatever they're saying this year, this month.

And it doesn't work for them because they're not a good athlete.

They don't load properly.

We're a normal, you know, a natural athlete.

Will you tell them the load?

Maybe he will feel it.

So I do, I think we're leaving about a billion dollars on the table.

Because there's so many people that would love the sport.

If they only thought, oh, I could be a beautiful tennis player.

I could be consistent.

I could play matches.

And instead of fearing every point, every time I have to serve.

And every time they serve to me, instead of fear, I go, oh, another opportunity to line up that sucker.

Another opportunity to keep my hips continuous.

And, and, and, you know, visualize and see what's happening.

My players love to play.

I love to play sets.

I love to play sets.

When I was a kid, I used to, I remember I always thought, God, I hope,

can't wait for this roller coaster to be over.

I don't want to play anymore matches.

It's stressful.

And, and, and I think that is a big problem with tennis.

People freak out too much on the court.

Instead of enjoying competition because they're playing their own little inner game.

You know, their own little mind game.

So that they don't have to get involved with the drama of tennis.

A great story about Foreman.

So I can say he was number one in the nation, the 12s, 14, 16s, 18s, great player.

All American college, one about seven, eight gold balls.

I mean, the kids great.

And I remember watching him in the quarters of the hard courts over in San Antonio.

And he was down and, and he was down a set, a match point, I think, a couple match points.

And the guy served, he ripped two forehands.

He ran around his back and ripped him down the line.

And I was just like, oh my god, you know, because I would have blocked him when I was a junior.

I was a whoos.

I would have blocked him.

And I would have just said, okay, get it back in, maybe he'll miss.

You know, maybe you can get to net.

But this kid, he'd down a match point, runs around his back, he rushes a forehand,

did it a couple times.

Comes back, wins the match, wins the tournament.

And I said, I said, don't, he was only 14 and I said, dude, you gotta tell me, because we're close,

you know, we go, his parents took me skiing.

We're very close.

I said, what goes through your mind when you are down match point?

He goes, I said, because it's gotta be some, I said, because I wouldn't have the wayboes

to do what you do.

And he said, Jack, he said, I just think to myself, I'm going to line up that shot.

I'm going to throw my racket into infinity, because we talk infinity.

And I'm going to throw my racket into the 45.

And I know good things are going to happen.

That's the way to think on a court, you know, instead of, oh, I think I'll just block it back and

don't miss, don't miss, you know, this kid's going for winners, just like Jokovic,

it wimbleed in when he was down match point to fed.

Hit that winner on the line.

That's the match I was thinking of when you just, when you made that, it's going to be a two big four.

I got to pipe in, because I want Jack's opinion on this one.

I'm going to take it back to 2004, 2005, US Open.

Now, I'm not going to give Jokovic the credit at this point in his career.

They, you know, they were close.

I think it was the semi final match.

I don't even know if it was a final.

And Jokovic was down 40, 15 fed serving for the match.

And Jokovic, they played an incredible point for Fed to get up 40, 15.

And Jokovic returns.

And he takes this big ol' swing.

He missed hit the crap out of it and it landed on the line.

And I, he not only did that year and came back in one.

Almost the same exact circumstance the following year.

Same point in the match against Fed.

And, you know, do you think which one comes first off to chicken or the egg?

Did he, yeah, he got the wave out.

So he's going to do it.

But he did it out of anger, but it worked.

And now all of a sudden, you have a working model that says,

I'm going to do this again.

And it goes on to, he becomes a great, like I said, if I'd love to talk to no back about that match.

And I'd love to talk to Roger about, because you very see barely so Roger.

You're invisibly angry.

And you know, being the purest, he was pissed at a shank beat him with, you know, on a return.

So that's, if you remember those jacks, those jacks, what do you think there?

Well, you know, there's certain guys like him, like Kobe, Kobe Bryant, right?

They always want the ball.

I believe that they have an unconscious knowing of what we're going to discuss either today or next week.

But I think they have an unconscious knowing of the 45.

I think they have, because you'll see I was going to show you pictures, but we'll do it later.

You'll see, Jokovic does things where you can see with his opposite hand.

He's trying to know his left hand.

He's trying to hold himself in the 45.

He doesn't, unlike Malfice, who will let the left hand go sometimes and then hit the fence.

I love Malfice, but he's not as disciplined as Jokovic or Federer or Nadol or a lot of these guys.

The discipline guy.

But I believe they have an unconscious knowing Bobby.

I really do of what they do.

And that's why they're like Kobe.

They're like, oh, all the pressure in the world, I'm the guy.

Give it to me, because I know I've got the feel.

I've got this unconscious knowing of what I'm doing.

And all I want to do is make it conscious for people, because not everyone is a natural athlete.

In fact, I'd say maybe one in a million is a natural athlete.

And so you talk, and I'm going to jump back in and then give it back to Bobby.

But you talk about the 45, you talk about this math.

And physics is something that is arguably, maybe not even arguably, it's unbreakable.

If I do, it's irrefutable.

Right.

So if I do this to the ball, it has no choice but to do that.

Exactly.

If I'm in control of this, meaning I understand the 45 degrees, I understand the swing and how it works.

And I know the math and the anatomy of everything that's happening,

barring a giant gust of wind or something, or something externally happening, the ball must do that.

And that's where that unbelievable confidence comes in.

For some reason, I've got a basketball movie in my head, where Michael Jordan's in with some

cartoon characters.

And he says, just give me the ball and I'll take care of it.

And Bill Murray says, don't lose that confidence.

That's all you need.

You need the guy that is going to say, just give it to me and I'll figure it out.

Why can't we all be that way?

Well, you know we can.

I was going to actually, that's why I asked you earlier if we're going to have this real,

this is going to be video, but we'll do it next week.

I have a woman I've been working with for a couple months up in Toronto, Canada.

And I teach her remotely and she's crushing it, crushing it, just rising level at level.

But it's more important than rising levels.

The college kids, everyone wants to hit with her because she hits like a college kid now.

And she used to hit like a lady, like a 3.0 lady.

Now she hits like a college kid.

And she was talking last week with me and I pulled it up for today's meeting with you guys.

And before we even started the lesson, I go, how's it going?

And she just started.

So I zoomed in on her because I knew it was good stuff.

And she said, Jack, I got to tell you.

I mean, everyone's, the club is saying how amazing I'm playing.

This and that.

And she goes, you know, I have so much confidence.

I never want to block the ball.

I always want to hit it.

And she just, I don't know what exactly she says, but it's beautiful.

And there's a 3.0 lady that's now more like a 4.0.

But only in a couple of months.

And she is just loving life.

She goes, you know, I can't do it every time, Jack.

Sometimes I stop my hips.

But I know what's wrong.

And she goes, and as soon as I, if I ever miss, she goes, I look where I'm standing.

And I'm facing the net.

I'm not.

My eyes aren't at the 45.

I lost my 45.

And she goes, but I never make the same mistake twice.

This is the lady.

It was a 3.0 lady.

And now she looks great.

And she just hits super smooth and beautiful.

And she's steady.

And she loves to compete now.

And she said, and when I met her, she said, you're my last hope.

Because she, she, our first meeting before she paid the price, right?

Or she gave me the money.

Our first meeting, we had a 10 minute meeting.

She goes, you're my last hope.

I'm about to go to pickleball, which is why we tell you guys,

we're leaving a billion dollars on the table.

Because we're going to lose people to think, oh, I can't be that.

It's not, you don't know what you don't know.

It's not possible for me to look pretty like Federer.

So I'm always going to be funny looking player,

a mechanical looking player.

The lessons I've taken are still, I still, you know,

I don't have confidence.

And I think she's a great example.

And I was going to play that for you.

You could hear it if you want.

But it's a beautiful thing.

And I have a lot of people tell me that.

You know, just, I can't do it every time.

But now I'm doing it 70%.

Now I'm doing it 90%.

So even if it's more often than not, yeah.

All right, Bobby, I've been dominating.

I took over Jack.

I'm sorry, which isn't uncommon in these conversations.

So what do you got for Jack, Bobby?

That's okay. You guys didn't even know.

I overheated my phone.

I was gone for five minutes because the phone was in the sunlight.

So I was outside cooling the phone off.

So I get.

Right away, Jack, what do you think of Jan thinner?

I like him a lot.

I like him a lot.

You know, everyone is so funny during the three biggies, right?

Ben, Nadal, Jokovic.

That's what we should have been going nuts.

That's when tennis should have been going.

You making bucks, bucks, bucks.

And everyone, that's when it should have been sexy, right?

60 plus 60, almost 70 grand slams among three guys.

Yes.

In 20 years.

So now everyone's like, well, we missed that boat.

So now the Alkarez is the next Nadal.

I'm like, stop it.

Stop it.

You really, you're just, you know, they're just trying to make things exciting for

maybe television or something.

Don't say he's the next Nadal.

He's the Alkarez.

We'll see.

We'll see.

Sinner, he looks great.

He does look great.

And if you watch those guys through my eyes,

just like if you watch Nadal and fed through my eyes,

you'd see there's a thin red line going down all these players and you go,

oh, yeah, I see how he coils.

I see how he lines up to the 45.

Federer was my poster boy because he made it look effortless.

Sinner is fantastic.

I love the way it cuts off angles.

He does that better than anyone, except for maybe, well,

joke of itch and Medvedev.

All three of those guys are amazing at cutting a lining up the 45.

And especially Medvedev.

He's got no stroke, right?

He puts his racket on the 45 and he wiggles his butt and then,

you know, when everyone's like, oh, you know,

what a strange looking stroke.

And I'm going, what are you talking about?

He's just closer to the grist, right?

He just keeps it closer to the 45.

He's closer to the grist where a guy like Andy Murray was really in the horizontal.

So he was pretty.

And Nadal does it all the same as Andy Murray,

but he's really in the vertical.

Federer was perfect, right?

He was, I would say for every cubic club called an inch.

For every cubic inch his arm would go up.

It would go sideways.

I mean, he was perfect, right?

He looked like a wave on the ocean.

So Sinner, I like, I like, he doesn't make it look quite as effortless as Fed

or Rios.

I don't think anyone right now has got, oh, maybe Baratini.

He looks pretty effortless.

He's, he's pretty good.

But I love Sinner, you know, he does everything right.

If we watch the match together, you and I, Bobby,

I go, I would stop and go, look, see, look at his contact.

Look how he's, look how he's perfectly at the 45.

Look at his left hand, how it's cupping in.

So he doesn't lose his contact point, right?

Unlike Malfi, so we'll do that once in a while.

All the great players cupped their left hand in, right at contact.

To make sure that they are lined up like a bloody surgeon, right?

You know, going in, you know, with that scalpel.

So, so Sinner does everything right.

He looks great.

Is he going to win 20 grand slams?

I have no idea.

I have no idea.

I just brought him up because to me,

like you just said, his forehand to me is the epitome of,

I watched him play him match and he hit three winners to the outside T to the

duke's court.

First time he did it, I was like, okay, got lucky.

Second time he did it, I was like, okay.

Third time he did, it's like, no, he really can get, you know,

and I think the hard part, because I'm a Fed guy too, you know,

same way, I grew up my coaches.

The vernacular was look cool.

And how do you feel?

Those, because I was the shortstop.

And the story of my tennis career is, is he going to be six foot?

Is he going to get big enough?

And can we get him enough reps?

But I was the shortstop.

It was the athleticism was there.

And the feel is everything to me.

But I've watched Sinner and I'm, you know, I'm impressed just because he's taller.

It's a different body shape.

So it doesn't look, it's never going to look as pretty as

Fed. But I think he's doing some pretty wild stuff right now.

And I'm just curious, you know, where you see it going.

Yeah, I don't, you know, some little, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a purist because I'm,

I coach like a scientist or a, you know, I post like a geometry.

It's not about my observation.

And then I give you the tip.

I'm like, was he living into, yeah, his vertical axis is perfect.

Yeah.

Yes, he's concave at every contact lag, whatever you want to call.

But he's meticulously, he's at the 45 and he's convex.

He doesn't get out on the hit as much as Fed did.

Right.

His elbows slightly more bent.

Yes, it is.

You mean an Alcarez is deeper on the hit, right?

Their arm is just a little more curved.

What's his name's Sinner's is curved, but it's a little bent.

Yeah.

So it's not quite as pretty as Roger.

Right.

So he's, I, I will use him now because he's here.

Yeah.

But I still use Fed the most when someone, when someone wants to see something about a one-handed

backhand, I'll either use Warranco or Fed.

Sure.

Even use Gascay because Gasc really exaggerates.

You see the con, yeah, you see his wrist is concave at the wind up with Gascay.

And then guys like, I'll even use TFO because you've got the big wing.

So you see the sign, you see the concave and his arm on his forehand.

Mm-hmm.

So I can use people for different things, but Fed had it all.

Yes.

And he had it seamlessly.

He did it all seamlessly.

So he's still my poster boy even though he's not on anyone's radar anymore.

No, I'm with you on that.

I mean, that's when people ask me if he's the greatest.

So well, one looked beautiful.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

They're tired to go past that fact.

Destetically, he was so unbelievable to watch that, you know,

and again, I don't think the average fan goes that far.

They're not, I'm laughing all the little things that you picked out.

You know, we watch videos like that because I try to figure out, you know,

how do I, it's 59.

I still want to get better.

And I know my biggest thing was not enough rep.

So I've watched the, you know, if you're going to watch a backhand,

you'll watch Roger or you'll watch Stan.

If you're going to watch a forehand, you'll watch Roger.

You know, you'll watch you serve, you watch Sampress.

And I do, I've watched Sinner and that's another again, because of his verticality's height.

And just he's an elastic band too.

And, you know, I think the whole skiing thing gets under emphasized.

Because like you said, this is a core sport.

Well, he'd never stood up.

And that's a problem with a lot of, you know, recreational tennis players.

They stand up way too quick.

Well, why do you think all the best players in the last 25 years

were all good soccer players, Roger, including Joke of it, including.

They're all good soccer because they understand their lower body.

And it's like, it's, it's, it's imagine an apple tree, right?

You want to break your neck.

You can climb up the apple tree to get an apple.

If you want to use your brain, you shake the bottom of the tree.

The limb is moving in a nonlinear way.

And the apple's dropped.

Right?

So that's why these soccer players and skiers,

they're tuned into their lower body and their upper body is just there for balance.

Right?

Where Americans, well, baseball and this and macho.

So we're all an instruction.

I think it's horrible, you know, oh, turn your shoulders.

Turn your unit turn.

It's not a unit turn.

I mean, when we, when we show you next week,

you'll see it's not a unit turn.

Yes, it looks like a unit turn in fast motion.

But is watching it like I watch it,

framed by free.

It's not even close to a unit turn.

It's much more like shaking the apple tree.

Right?

The tree, the bow of the tree moves just a little, just enough.

Maybe, maybe a quarter of an inch.

But the branches playing off that quarter of an inch move maybe feet, maybe three, four feet.

And that's, you follow me?

So that's your right.

So skiing is a big deal.

Just like the soccer is a big deal.

Well, I agree.

And I said that's the, I'd love to get more basketball players playing tennis

because they have to have you play defense.

You have to be in tune with the lower half of your body.

As you said, I always ask the kids if they played shortstop, if baseball was their game,

because you're doing a split set, you know, the motions are very similar.

And you know, being Cuban, they have to mandatory, have to be able to salsa dance,

because you have to be in tune with your hips.

And by that's right.

And by the way, it's all set.

And I happen to know it because I'm a California wacko.

So I've done everything from the dance lean to, you know,

Pilates to Tai Chi to surfing.

Yeah, it's all figurate surfing.

All of it.

Belly dancing.

I've got Belly dancers.

Copiously.

You're not a true California wacko until you end up in one of those castenata groups, though.

Yeah, no, not yet.

Actually, I did read two or three of his books.

I did read, I actually take that back.

I read several Carlos castenata.

Takes me back to college.

Because I went to UC San Diego and yes, I imagined it.

I was really into the one with the Raven on the front.

I can't remember the name of that book.

Yeah, that's the third one.

Yeah.

That's the third one.

Yeah.

But I read that.

And that's way off-topping.

But they've got a group where they do their movements.

And it's all there.

They're not really Pilates.

It's a little more, quote unquote, spiritual than that.

But when you talk about shaking the tree and those kinds of scenarios,

when we talk about that kind of movement,

I'm my wife and I are currently reading through the mindset book.

As our two-year-old calls it, "Bobby, we read the mindset book,

which is the Carol Deweck concept of growth mindset."

And in that case, what I'm hearing from you,

and we might want to leave it here today,

because I know we can talk for hours.

Sure.

What I'm hearing from you is you think even though

Bobby's students and a lot of mine as well,

I work all in the tennis court only with beginners.

And we've got so many uncoordinated people.

They're just not doing the work at home.

We talk about a natural athlete all the time.

There is some of that genetically,

but I'm coming to believe that a lot of it can be learned.

A lot of it can be practiced and you can get better

and become that natural athlete,

whether I was in the beginning or not is less relevant.

Well, that's where the swivels come in,

because not everyone can move.

I mean, if you're a shortstop,

then you learn to catch the ball as your hips are coming in.

And then as your hips are rounding the corner,

the ball gets flung.

Flung.

So, but everyone can do that.

I can do it now.

Couldn't do it when I was a kid,

because I didn't understand it.

I was going to show you guys some drills that I do

that most people can't understand.

And I was going to ask you, what do you see?

And you won't, we'll see what you say next week.

It'll be very interesting little thing.

Because I thought about our meeting a lot,

and I thought this would be fun.

What do you guys see?

Because that's the problem.

It's not what you see in tennis.

It's what you don't see.

So, when I watch these pros, I started this new series.

Everyone's mad at me,

called Gatt tennis gaslighting.

But it makes me mad.

People pay a lot of money.

The kids, you know, they miss school,

or this or that,

and they put their heart on the line,

and their parents put their bucks on the line,

and that time, the time is a joke.

So much time.

And their kids still loses.

And I'm like, wow, you know,

don't teach that.

You know, don't teach that.

And so I started this gaslighting series, like,

and like I said, I get a lot of love,

but I do get, I would say, 8% hate mail.

And that's fine.

But, yes, it can be learned.

I mean, you have to remember,

when we were kids,

instead of plunking on, you know, on a phone,

we played games like Jax.

Remember Jax?

You throw it all up.

You'd grab the Jax, and you'd catch the ball.

Or we'd play pickup sticks.

Or we'd play operation.

All these games, you had to have a steady hand,

and you had to be coordinated.

And you had to do little things.

I can't even find those games anymore.

But, but that's an issue as well.

I think you're right, Bobby.

I don't think, I think kids today are,

are because they don't do the things we did,

kickball, right?

They don't do the things we did.

They're not in their body.

They're not in their body.

I'll give you a quick, quick, quick one.

I gave tennis lessons, not tennis lessons.

I gave windsurfing lessons to Bob Dylan,

about 35 years ago, 40 years ago.

Bob Dylan, this singer.

Bob, Robert.

Yeah, like a Rolling Stone, that guy.

You gave windsurfing lessons to Bob Dylan?

I gave, yeah, Bobby.

This is why we're going to talk to the crazy California people more often.

They got stories like, I gave windsurfing lessons to Bob Dylan.

So I gave this to Bob Dylan because he introduced drugs to the Beatles.

So we got to work in the S4.

Anyway, so I gave him a lesson, right?

And let me tell you, because I gave a lot of windsurfing lessons back then,

which is why I learned a lot about the wind.

But, and I was still playing tennis,

in tournaments and all that, but I loved windsurfing back in 1980.

I gave him a couple of lessons,

two weekends in a row, Saturday, Sunday, Saturday, Sunday.

And he was the worst student ever,

because he wasn't in, he's a genius.

Right? He's a genius. I mean, he's right songs like Mad, he's incredible, amazing.

I don't think anyone, I don't, I think he's a class by himself,

but he was not in his body.

And the same thing with Deepak Chopra.

I gave him some tennis slash golf lessons.

He was working on his golf, but I showed him how they were similar.

Gaman and Aepord, he ended up having me give a whole thing to his Chopra kids at the La Costa.

For the next year, he says, you got to take these Aepords.

I want to get my kids on them, you know, all the kids in my school,

because they had a thing called Chopra Kids.

But I gave Deepak some lessons as well.

The worst athlete, because these guys are all in their head.

Yeah, they think the tournament's all in their head.

And they were literally the two worst athletes.

I mean, they couldn't hit the ocean if they were sitting in a boat.

It was so bad.

But, but that's what I mean.

And you're right, Bobby.

I think that a lot of the kids today are very much in their head.

They don't go out and play.

You know, they don't play.

They don't.

And I think that affects their competitiveness, too.

Like, I mean, we talk about all the time.

You know, it's a 10 year old.

I didn't care if I was playing my buddy who was the hockey player and hockey.

I still wanted to win.

And if when he played me in baseball or tennis, he still wanted to win.

We were just more competitive by nature, where these kids,

and it was natural.

Because like you said, we were doing on the street.

We were playing kickball.

We went season to season.

Okay, what are we playing now?

It's basketball season.

Let's play basketball.

Everything today is so rigid.

And I think that burns them out.

And they don't see a pathway in tennis.

Because the kid who starts a little sooner is naturally going to be a little bit better initially.

And, you know, we do lose a lot of people.

And here, I would love to speak to the dynamic of Atlanta,

where there are so many people playing that it's such a rust to be...

I mean, here we go.

We might have to edit this.

On rust to be bad, you know, they want to go out and to play CA tennis so quickly,

that well, once you get the beginning, it's hard to unbreak things.

And if you don't go in, you know, I have a lady that I taught today.

And I laugh, you know, well, young 40, but I'm like, you know,

I'm teaching you how to be a tennis player.

I'm not teaching you how to be an out-of-player.

And there's a difference in our mind.

And unfortunately, when you do it for a living,

I don't want to alienate my entire clientele.

But I do look forward to those people that want to get out there and understand the idea about

feeling something and that there's a kinetic motion going on that you just can't...

You know, I can tell you, like you said, lag.

I can give you all the buzzwords.

And there is validity in every one of the buzzwords.

But bottom line, feel it and then make it your own.

You know, I think my motto for myself has always been make myself obsolete.

I want to teach my clientele.

I call everyone a kid, by the way.

That lady, she must be 60 or 55 or 60 in Toronto.

And I got actually two or three in Toronto, different clubs.

But this particular lady, you know, all of them, everyone's a junior.

That's the problem.

We're all junior.

I'm a junior.

When you're a tennis player, you never leave the juniors.

So, you know, I want to make myself obsolete.

I want the kid to be like Foreman to go, okay, I've got it.

I got all the tools.

I know everything.

I've got a big...

I've got the big picture.

I can visualize because he's practice with those lines that I put on the court.

So, he can literally visualize.

Almost everybody comes up to.

He sees it before he hits it.

He sees what he's going to do before he does it.

And so, I want to make myself obsolete.

But I think most pros make themselves where you're dependent on.

Yeah.

I think you're drug addict.

Absolutely.

Yes.

You're trying to keep your client because you need customer retention

as...

Because we need the money.

Like, there's always a financial component there.

But really to have almost a master and apprentice kind of a concept to say,

"I want you to be better than me.

I want you...

I'm going to give you everything I have.

All of my information.

You should be able to retain it and then get more.

Because you're younger, you should be able to do more.

But in this case, it's... you've got so many people that need the clients.

You need the customer.

You need the financial base.

And that takes a little bit of the purity out of the coaching.

But I love that concept of yours, Jack, where you say,

"I want to give you everything and have you surpass me."

And at some point, then tell me how cool it was to do a thing

that I'm incapable of doing.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, I mean...

And the fact is, you don't need to keep the same client.

It's embarrassing if you have the same client and they're still playing at the same level.

I mean, seriously, I mean, if they're not a whole level, if they're a 30 and I work with them

for two months and they're not a 40, something's really wrong.

So I would rather just go through people.

You know, I'm lucky, I guess, because of my internet presence or whatever,

I get new people all the time, which is great.

That's what I want.

I want to go fly a little bird, go.

You're off.

You're off to the races.

And they'll still come see me every once in a while.

Like in the end, I remember I saw Sam when he was senior in high school.

They just said, "I just want to, you know, I hadn't seen him for a while.

I don't want to work on my backhand and my backhand volley."

Okay, so we worked for a couple of hours.

We were at Dick Van Patens House.

If you like California stories, I was in San Diego.

He was in Thousand Oaks, so we met at Dick Van Patens House.

He's gone now, too.

But in his son Nils and Vinny Van Paten, they were both there.

Let me go ahead and tell you right now, Sean has no idea who you're talking about.

He doesn't even know.

Dick Van Patens, the battle of the network,

Starr's dick beating.

I think did he beat Bill Cosby?

Yeah, it's like that.

They both out there with their Prince Rackets.

Well, he was at the date of the night.

They're best.

He was on Hollywood Squares.

Yeah.

He was the best.

I just was off.

I know who he is.

All right.

He was the enough.

He was the dad.

He was the best.

He was one of the founders.

Vinny Van Paten.

He was one of the founders.

He was the big tennis player, too.

Yeah, sometimes I really show my age here, Sean.

Sorry about that, bro.

That's fantastic.

I got to look him up.

I'm like, yeah, okay, I've heard of that guy.

Yeah, yeah.

He was a famous Hollywood, one of the first famous Hollywood guys,

like John Wayne, that era.

But anyway, yes, so that was, you know, so.

But in general, these guys don't need lessons.

Even their coaches, when they say, oh, so and so's his coach,

I have a lot of friends that travel with some of the top WTA girls.

It's more like, you know, coach, give me some more.

Give me a coach.

Give me a basket.

I want to practice my serve.

It's not as much as you think.

They don't really listen to me with all ears to their coaches.

Trust me on this.

It is more, hey, coach, what hotel would you book us in?

All right.

No.

The team manager.

I'm okay with that.

Bobby, I hate to do this to both of you guys,

but we're going to go on forever here.

So I'm not even going to do my whole, hey, Bobby, what else you got?

Because I also know we're going to follow up soon.

And we'll do a video version to where we can show your products

and really dive into the nonlinear tennis system.

Because we want to learn about the methodology.

We want to be able to share it.

But I do want to hit you with King of tennis

and make sure we get out of here at some point before it's tomorrow.

But Jack, you know, you know this is coming.

And I appreciate you making time to prepare for this.

But we, it's my favorite question.

I love asking at the end, everybody.

If you were King of tennis, and whether it's the whole world

or just the United States, whatever, whatever size you want it to be.

If you were King of tennis, is there anything you would do or change?

All right.

Now I'm going to get political on you.

Ooh.

It's the way I feel about America.

I think if you're going to come here,

you got to be able to speak some form of English.

Because if not, we can't communicate.

And if we can't communicate, we fight.

You know, because you go to other things.

You go to other things if you can't communicate.

If I were the King of tennis, and this is what I'm trying to do now, actually,

I'm working real hard to do this with some of the biggest organizations and

money people and all the things that I've really never delved into my whole life.

I've always been a real grinder.

And then before that, I mean, after that, it's been all about my system.

So I've been like a mad scientist.

Now if I were the King of tennis, yeah, I'd make sure every pro,

new and commentator,

knew the science behind the champions.

What is that thin red line?

So we can stop saying, oh, look at that lag.

Look at this.

We could say, hey, look at that contact point.

Is that guy dialed in at the 45 or what?

Because you see it with joke of it.

You see it with all the best players.

They're always at contact. They are on the money.

They're not late.

They're right on the money.

Like I said, they have an unconscious knowing.

So if I feel like if I were King of tennis, if everyone knew

this projective or nonlinear geometry,

that's behind all great athletes, and certainly all great tennis players,

because it's the most athletic sport there is.

And even the commentators, I don't even think they know how to shoot.

The video, right, if they were really smart, they'd video and a drone from above,

and they'd say, look at center, look at how he's totally perfectly lined up a contact.

But you never see that shot.

You never see that shot.

But if you did, you'd go, oh, I just learned something.

So that's what I would do is make sure everyone knew it was

knew the same language.

I don't really care what tips or vocabulary you use,

as long as you have the same basis of vertical horizontal gravity, you know,

the standing wave, which we'll talk about next time, because that you have to see.

But to describe that, you just go to the gym and you see the heavy ropes,

there's your standing wave.

Yeah, or a fly fisherman, you know, who throws the cast the reel,

150 yards, that's your traveling wave.

But anyway, that's the only way I can describe it without showing you.

But yeah, that would be, if I were King, everyone would come from the same place,

whether it's commentators, coaches, players, pros, they would all at least know,

you know, the real fundamentals that are in nature that make something look natural,

right? Nature, natural.

So that's what I would do.

Bobby.

Right, I'll be back next week.

We want more Jack, we want more.

I'll be back.

You guys are a lot of fun and you're really good at this.

So because I've done a few of these, you guys are really good at this, probably the best I've worked with.

So I appreciate that.

Well, and Jack, I appreciate it.

But I mean, you know, it always comes back to you.

And I think one thing that we, you said it, and I loved it, and we, we got to hit it,

even though we got to get out of here, is, you know, the people that are kids, like you say,

you call them, so you still call them kids.

Well, I think there's a child like nature to people who want to continue to learn.

And that's a great thing. You know, as a coach, more than anything, the kids out here, you know,

I live in a district and work in a district where these kids are so just consumed by their GPA.

And I'm like, listen, guys, I want you to do well. Don't get me wrong.

If you wanted to have a conversation about what you learned, I'm all in.

I don't want to know about your grade.

And I think we're so, unfortunately, gone to so much results oriented that

these passion and the joy of learning. You know, and that's what life is all about.

Just don't do what you're good at and stay with it. It'd be boring.

And if you're judging yourself, there's always going to be somebody better.

Very rarely, well, you know, number one, it, everything you do.

And that's just that's human nature.

And like you said, not to get political, not to get as we get older, we wax philosophical,

but there's something to be said about staying, staying childlike in some capacity.

Well, you're right about the continuous learning and continuous improving.

I mean, I'm almost 70 and I'm I'm I'm playing stats against guys that, you know,

just got out of college, 23, 24. And I'm doing well.

I do fine. And my goal is, you know, next year to get my serve back over 100, this and that.

So I mean, you're right. That's why I say we're all juniors.

But it really is to me with tennis,

winning ugly is almost the opposite of what I do. I like Brad, by the way.

I've had beer with Brad. He's good guy. But, but you know, you got to love the way you play.

If you really want to play a lot of tennis, you got to love the way you play.

And if you don't love the way you play, you're going to quit eventually.

But if you really love the way you play, you just can't get enough, you know, and that's the thing.

You just can't get enough of it. So I think that's a real big deal.

I know the old adage was it doesn't matter if you win or lose.

It's how you play the game. Well, that I don't believe in either.

But I do believe in somewhat, because I can tell you, I did all right as a junior and I did okay in college.

I wasn't, I had a winning record, but it wasn't, you know, I wasn't the top guy.

And, and I hated myself sometimes even when I won. I was like, God, I was once so ugly today.

I chipped and charged. I was afraid to hit a backhand. I sliced everything when I should have

drilled it. I lobbed when I should have passed him. So even when I won, I didn't love the way I played.

And now today I'd love the way I play. All I want to do is play.

And when you come in and net, I'm rare. I mean, unless it's really a tricky shot, I'll hit a lob, but

I just want to drill it either at you or down the line or cross or sometimes I'll do what Warren does.

Warren would, he just got off the tour. He made top thousand, got like 14 ATP points, but he won the

NCAA. He's a good player. Another long time student. So he tells me things like he goes, you know, Jack,

there's so many options I have. Sometimes I just don't know what to do. And I go, I know what you mean,

man. I know it because when you're lined up on that 45, which we'll show you on next week,

you'll see geometrically speaking how it's the easiest to massage the ball at the 45 and adjust.

With the slightest adjustment, you can go from wicked cross court to down the line. That's why

guys like Roddick, when he went to net, he couldn't do anything against Fed because he couldn't read Fed.

He would move his head to the left, Fed would go to the right. And Fed owned him when he came to net

because Fed was so at the 45, he massaged the ball that he could change his mind in a nanosecond.

So I think loving the way you play is a big deal. And I think like I said, I think that'll bring a

billion dollars back to tennis. And people thought that they could love the way they played the game.

Even under pressure. That's standing. I've ever heard of a tag line.

That's the technique I've ever heard. You guys did not like it right there.

I can talk to you guys. I hope we get to hang out someday. I'll be coming to your neck of the woods

in a few months, actually, to work at a couple of clubs.

Yeah, we'll figure it out for sure. We'll be there.

Then some time. All right.

We figured out. Well, Jack, thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

And we will definitely be in touch. And like I said, we'll do a follow-up where there is a video

specific conversation to share with your product about your products and your methodology because we

want to get that out there as well as we can. But for now, I appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time.

Hey you guys. Cheers.

Thank you, sir. See you soon.

Well, there you have it. We want to thank reGeovinate.com for use of the studio

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