Many, so practitioners want to achieve big results, but when

it comes to business, behave more like a freelancer or a contractor.

So what would happen if you started to think more like a C E O.

This is what I discussed with Janet Marie on this episode of architecture

business club, the weekly podcast for solo and small firm architecture

practice owners, just like you.

He wants to build a profitable future-proof architecture business

that fits around their life.

I'm the host, John Clayton.

If you want to get notified, when I release a new episode.

And get access to free resources and exclusive offers.

Then go to Mr.

John clayton.co.uk forward slash ABC.

And sign up to my free weekly email newsletter.

Now let's dig in to thinking like a CEO.

Janet Murray is an online business strategist and copywriter.

She's the creator of the 2024 Courageous CEO strategic business planner and

resource kit, along with a whole host of content kits that save time on

content planning and creation, and the host of the Courageous CEO podcast.

Janet has been podcasting for around a decade and has published more

than a thousand podcast episodes.

As a copywriter, Janet specializes in Creating and writing

strategic copywriting campaigns.

She's also a keynote speaker who has spoken on big stages around the world.

To grab a copy of Janet's 2024 Courageous, CEO, strategic Business Planner and

Resource Kit, visit Janet murray.co.uk.

Janet, Welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Thanks so much for having me.

Oh, it's an absolute pleasure.

Um, Janet, before we get talking about the topic that we've got in mind today,

I've just got to ask you about this.

I heard that you, you recently started a choir in less than 30

days, which is absolutely incredible.

How did that come about?

Well, when I make a decision, it tends to happen quick,

but, but basically I'm a runner as well.

Um, so I've had this idea for many years now that it would be amazing.

Um, so I've done park run, um, every Saturday.

It would be amazing during December to.

to, uh, see choirs and have some Christmas music, um, at the finish.

Um, I'm a big sort of believer in in, in just testing things out and, and minimum

viable product, just get it out there.

So, um, within, I think it was 23 days, actually, um, I had a Facebook page,

I had a full practice backing track.

We'd had our first rehearsal, um, and, um, yeah, it went well.

And.

It's something that I think potentially could be a business idea in the future.

But like I say, I'm a big believer in like testing things out, you know, not

spending too much time in resources and actually getting the format and the

delivery right, you know, before you, you kind of put something out there.

So I was able to actually apply a lot of my business skills, but it's

still really scary because, um, I've done a lot of singing over the years

and a lot of music, but I've never.

So, yeah, so quite, uh, yeah, quite, quite, it's quite scary and really

took me out of my comfort zone.

It's good sometimes to push yourself out of your

comfort zone though, isn't it?

I think that's absolutely amazing that you managed to get it going so quickly.

Um, Janet, we, We met a number of years ago, actually, I first discovered you

actually, it was via your podcast, which I mentioned in the introduction,

you've recorded over a thousand podcast episodes, which is absolutely incredible

and your podcast was, I discovered it when I was wanting to learn more

about marketing because it was an area that was quite a weakness of mine and

it was an absolute treasure trove.

And it was actually.

Okay.

It was one of the first, if not the first podcast that I ever started listening to.

Wasn't really into podcasts before that.

So we have quite a connection there.

So it's a huge honor to have you as a guest on my podcast.

However, today we're going to talk about something a little bit different.

So.

The time that this is going out, we're at the start of the new year.

Um, so this is a perfect time to take a fresh look at how you

think about your business and of yourself as a business owner, we're

going to talk about CEO mindset.

So thinking like a CEO, um, with that in mind, firstly, in your experience, how

do most small business owners think of themselves and their business normally?

I think what I've discovered over 10 years of working with small

business owners, and I've had actually had my own business for more than 20 years.

I was a self employed journalist and editor before that.

But what I've discovered is a lot of people behave like

freelancers or contractors.

And, And then they, they go, Oh, like, well, why have I got inconsistent income?

Like, you know, why am I not able to predict how much money I've

got coming in each month or year?

Why is it, why, why are things not growing?

Why, why are things stagnating?

And it's interesting because a lot of people decide to run their own

business because they want to leave the corporate lifestyle behind.

People behave like a sort they've got the kind of freelancer

contractor mentality And that is the kind of gig mentality, isn't it?

You're getting a new client, you're delivering, and then

you're going out looking for more.

And it has taken me a long time to be able to kind of articulate this,

but I got to the stage in my business where I was getting so many clients

who were coming to me for help with marketing and content, because that

is kind of like my specialist area.

And I was finding that they didn't know how to do like basic stuff, like how

to get a client or how to you know, set their financial targets for the year

and how to make sure they hit them.

And it sounds a bit silly, but you know, knowing how to get a client or knowing how

to get clients, that is far more important than knowing how to set up a Facebook

page or Instagram account or whatever.

But a lot of the advice out there will be like, Oh, you've

started your own business.

Oh, you need to get on LinkedIn or you need to be on TikTok or, you

know, whatever, YouTube or whatever.

And yeah, I mean, having a podcast for me has You know, it's definitely helped

me grow my audience and my network, but there's a couple of things about it.

That might not actually be the best route for you.

There might be quicker and easier ways and ways that are

more suited to your personality.

Um, and the other side of it is, yes, you know, a lot of us work for ourselves

because we don't want to All that corporate stuff and all the meetings

and strategies and targets, but actually there's a lot of useful stuff in there.

You know, if you were to ask, um, somebody at sort of C suite level, or you to ask

somebody, a CEO of a successful business, like what are your financial targets?

Like what are your key sales periods?

Like, you know, what's coming up?

They might not tell you, they probably wouldn't because that's

commercially sensitive data.

But they would know.

And so I feel like there's a lot of people out there who are kind of expecting CEO

results, but actually they're behaving like a freelancer or a contractor.

And I should say at this point, there's absolutely nothing wrong with

being a freelancer or contractor.

That's absolutely fine.

But if, but if you are going to approach your business in that way,

you're going to get that kind of feast and famine and kind of not knowing

where your next client's coming from.

And so for me, it's all about.

A CEO of a, um, a successful business and growing business that's, you know,

growing in the right direction will be strategic and we'll be like, okay,

what is it that I want to happen here?

And what is the best way for me to, to get to that destination?

And that journey isn't going to look the same for everybody.

And, and just as every business, you know, they're going to be focusing on different

things and using different strategies.

And the other thing I would say about marketing as well is that.

A lot of people get confused with marketing marketing

and content is a tactic.

It's a tactic the same as, you know, some, some people go to

networking meetings or some people.

By paid, you know, invest in paid sponsorship or whatever, and the

crucial thing is, do you know what it is you want to achieve and

then choosing the right strategy?

Um, whereas I think a lot of people, the kind of freelancer, um, contractor

mentality is just kind of like, well, everybody else is getting on

TikTok or they're doing LinkedIn or.

People are trying YouTube.

That sounds good.

And so you end up doing things without really knowing why you're doing them.

So you end up wasting time and then you're like, I'm still not

getting regular consistent income.

Does that kind of make sense?

Yeah, I think so.

And, um, I mean, it's, that's just a, such a common scenario that, um,

folks will decide to start up their own business, whether that's in architecture

or any other industry that generally they are doing a job or profession

and they'll decide to start their own business and they know how to do the job.

The whole business building side of it and that strategy side of it is usually

often it can be somewhat lacking.

It certainly was when I started out with my architecture

business and you end up then.

You can go down the rabbit hole, particularly with social media I think

sometimes people jump on that bandwagon and do it just because to be seen to be

doing it because that's what everybody else does without that strategy behind it.

If that's the way that a lot of small business owners are

operating, What's the alternative?

What is the different way to think about things when it comes to, you know,

running and growing a successful business?

Well, I mean, it sounds a bit boring, I suppose.

Um, but it is about strategy.

So it's about, but it's actually really simple.

It's about sort of looking across the year.

So like, this is going out, I think in early 2024 and just starting

with those questions, like.

How much do I want to earn?

It's amazing, actually, how many business owners I say, like, how

much do you want or need to earn?

And they, they either don't know or they don't want to say, um, and there's

a difference between how much you need to earn, like to cover your, you

know, your, your basic commitments and to meet your household commitments

and then what you want to earn.

So that's the first thing is like, what is it that you, you Want to

earn or need to earn, but also being able to set realistic targets.

Cause I could like put my thumb in the air now and say, yeah, I want to earn

a hundred grand, but like, if I haven't actually thought about how I'm going to

get there, a lot of people as well will sort of say they'll pluck a figure out the

air and, and it's not based in any data.

Again, I'm conscious.

This all sounds really boring.

I'm actually quite a creative person, but I sort of feel like taking this

strategic approach to business.

That's what frees you up to be more creative and to.

experiment and, you know, and try things.

You can't just say I want to earn 100 grand or 150 grand, like,

well, what did you earn last year?

What did you earn in the last quarter of last year?

Like, how was that made up that income?

Like what sort of clients?

What sort of contracts?

And what strategies did you use to get those clients?

What worked well, but what didn't, what didn't work well.

So and really, it's about making the right decisions and just

making things easy for yourself.

But, and, and it's just taking that big, I often talk about it as being

like a photographer and taking like a wide shot, like across your year,

just looking at three quarters.

Okay.

Like what, what's going on, depending on what industry you're working mainly with,

you might find this certain peak periods that there might be busier times or times

where people are more likely to invest.

It could be that, you know, you work it.

With industries whereby, you know, they have money to spend in April or they

have money to spend in March because they're getting a new budget or whatever.

So it's about really kind of understanding that rise and fall of your own business.

Now, if you're new in business, if you've just started as a freelancer

or contractor, obviously you, you may not have that data to draw on.

Um, so again, it's probably not a great idea just to go and

pluck a figure out of your head.

It's probably better to start conservatively and then

kind of build up from there.

Um.

But it's really about just looking at that bigger picture, um, looking

at what you need to earn, what you want to earn, if you want to increase

on last year, like what's realistic, like, you know, doubling your income

might be realistic, but actually what would need to happen, like how many

conversations would you need to have?

What strategies would you need to use?

And that's the bit when I talk about marketing is that is that

people do marketing without really knowing what their goal is.

It's about going, what's my goal?

And so if I want to, you know, earn 50 grand in the next quarter or whatever,

what are the best activities for me to do?

Um, and it might be that proactive outreach, it might be.

as simple as making a list of all the people that you've worked with before.

Uh, and I have template templates for this kind of thing in my strategic business

planner, um, reaching out to them and booking in some calls or whatever it,

it may not be as hard as you think.

Um, and also thinking about how much time you want to spend on marketing.

And cause you know, we were just talking before we started recording this about,

um, About, you was talking about creating like video shorts and things to go with

this and you know, there, there can be actually quite a lot of production time,

um, in, in, in terms of doing something like a podcast or a YouTube channel, which

is great, you know, uh, that's definitely what doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

But you also have to be realistic about not only the time that it

will take you, but also how long you would expect to see results.

So the other thing is, is asking yourself like, how soon do I need results?

Like, if you wanna get clients in the next 30 days, then a

YouTube channel or podcast.

It's probably not going to be your priority because, um, yeah, some people

listen, I don't know about you, John, but some people listen to my podcast

for years, like, and when they buy a thing, you know, like, yes, it's great.

Cause they're building a relationship and you're building your authority and

your credibility, but they're probably not going to listen to one episode or

see one social media posts and buy.

So in the meantime, you're going to have to be using some different strategies,

which is probably going to be more proactive, like, reaching out to people

proactively, um, and, and actually being.

Really good about following up.

So I talk about it like a proactive outreach campaign.

It might be going to networking.

It might be, getting yourself along to the right events, but

it's really about understanding what it is you need to achieve.

And crucially, what's the timescale, because if you're using, um,

so something like a podcast, I wouldn't expect or social media, I

wouldn't expect you to see results.

before 90 days or certainly not big, you know, big results.

Often it will take years.

So if you're using strategies that typically take longer than 90 days

to get results and you're expecting money in the bank this month or

next month, then you're constantly going to be feeling disappointed.

You're going to be stressed, but if you're going, okay, well, yeah, you

know, long term I do need to develop my brands and I want to be a thought

leader and have authority in my industry.

So yes, I will do that podcast or the YouTube or, you know,

build my profile on LinkedIn.

But actually, in the meantime, I still need to be, um, getting myself

clients and getting work lined up.

And ironically, that's the bit that can free you up to do the

more creative stuff as well.

You know, like if you're not worrying about where your next client's coming

from, um, does that kind of make sense?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah.

So actually spending a little bit of time, maybe doing some of the.

Maybe for some people, the boring, unsexy type stuff, where you sit down

with a spreadsheet or a notepad and pen, and actually just be a little

bit more strategic about planning out your year, thinking about what your

goals are, what direction you want to go in, how you're going to get there.

And then when it comes to the marketing side of things, you mentioned

about those different options and all being, they're all sorts of

different tactics, aren't they?

But picking the right one to align with your goals, as you mentioned, if you.

needing to get some money in, the next month.

Like you don't want to launch a YouTube channel.

Something I wanted to just kind of touch upon though, is this thing about.

Being a CEO.

So many small business owners, particularly sole practitioners, they

won't consider themselves to be a CEO.

And dare I say it, some of them may not even know what a CEO is

like, but what does that even mean?

So for those that aren't familiar with the term, could you just

explain like, what is a CEO?

that's such a good question.

And funnily enough, I think I address it in my, in my podcast, my, my training

that goes along with my, um, business strategy planner, because yeah, I don't

think I would really know what a CEO was.

And I kind of knew the CEO was like the head honcho, but I didn't

really understand what that meant.

But basically it's your chief executive officer.

So that's the person who's, you know, leading the organization and beneath

that, and if you've worked in corporate, you'll, you'll know that you've got your

C suite, so you might have, you know, sales or marketing or other kind of

key, uh, finance, you know, departments where there's, there's somebody kind

of leading, um, that department.

Um, but I saw a really interesting post on, on LinkedIn recently, which I had to

respond to where this lady was saying.

And I really like her stuff actually, but she was saying, oh, oh, isn't it

annoying when people say that they're a CEO of a business and obviously having

a podcast called the Courageous CEO Podcast, I had to like jump on there.

And I said, well, yeah, I know what you mean.

I said, and I personally wouldn't, if somebody said to me, you know,

sometimes when you go to someone's website and it says, oh, um,

like we do this and we do that.

And you know, it's just the one person.

And she was going, oh, you know, they say I'm a CEO, but, um, you

know, it's just me and my cat.

But for me, I literally do have a cat on my desk at the moment with me, but,

um, but for me, it's more about being as calling yourself a CEO, tell people

that that's what you're calling yourself.

It's just, just seeing, seeing yourself as having a business, um, rather than,

than being a freelancer or contractor.

And actually, just to be honest, something I often say to people, and it often stops

them in their tracks is, If you're a freelancer, a contractor, you don't really

have a business because if you stopped doing what you were doing tomorrow, like

you've got nothing to sell, your business wouldn't be able to run without you.

So you don't have a business.

And so actually some of the episodes on my Courageous CEO podcast, and this is

why I changed my own content strategy a little bit because I wanted to.

attract maybe a different sort of business owner or more of the type

of business owner that I think really get where I'm coming from with this.

So I've, I've done episodes on growing a business to sell or, you know,

generating recurring revenue or, or, you know, finding ways, um, to

make your business work without you.

Now, some people will.

Some people think, Oh, that means I need an agency or I need a practice,

but it isn't necessarily that, but thinking about, well, you know, even

if there's just one or two of you, like, how can I create a business,

which isn't reliant on me being in front of my clients all the time?

Because the CEO isn't, you know, the CEO's.

traveling or doing meetings or off somewhere.

Now the business doesn't grind to a halt, and I think that is the difference.

It's the difference between having a business that is just you basically

delivering, and if you're not around to deliver, nothing happens, but also

you're not creating anything of value.

Um, and actually you don't have to have a practice to have

something of value to sell.

It could be like in my case, um, I have a small team of contractors, but I don't.

I don't actually have anybody on staff, but I've got assets.

So I've got digital products that generate recurring income.

I've got my planner and the resources go alongside it.

I've basically got things that, that to the right person will be valuable.

So somebody come along and want to buy it.

Obviously, if you want that to happen, having proper systems and processes

in place in your business, there's lots of things that you can do.

I've got a podcast episode about this, um, to make your business more value.

valuable, but that's really what I'm talking about is having a business

that if you're not able to show up one day or you're sick, or you've got

something else going on, there are ways.

And it doesn't mean there's like one way for that to happen, but it could run

without you and there's so many different models, but you don't have a bit.

If you're a freelancer or a contractor, you don't have a business basically,

because you're in business, you might say, but you don't have a business.

And this is exactly what happened with me, I'd decided

I was going to start a business and I created another job.

So that, that was me, and I was going to ask a question, which I think you've

kind of answered it already, just about how, um, are all small business owners

really CEOs, whether they call themselves that or not, but I think from what you've

explained that all business owners, even kind of freelancers or those starting out

to grow their business, Whether they call themselves a CEO, they probably should try

and think like a CEO to at least do some of those activities like the strategic

planning that many of them don't do, but actually until they get to the point

where they've developed the business enough in whichever direction it goes,

whether that's, um, creating products that can be sold without them needing

to be present or building a team to help deliver the services that actually,

unless it runs without them there, So It isn't actually really a business yet.

Yeah.

around or you, you know, you were unwell or you weren't able to

work for whatever reason, that business just wouldn't operate, would it?

Um, and that's why I say there's nothing wrong with being a

freelancer or contractor.

If that's how you want to work, then great.

I did it for years and I absolutely loved it.

But if you're thinking, well, actually I want to grow something

that possibly I could scale or sell, or there isn't really, that, that

maybe I can retire early or, or maybe I can, uh, reduce my hours and

build a team to, you know, something that's an asset, that something's of

value, or it isn't always about money.

It could be about leaving a legacy or whatever, whatever you build.

That can't really just be reliant on you because otherwise it's not a business.

And it's actually the first time I've said it, but you've helped me make

a better distinction, really, which is kind of like you're in business.

But you don't have a business.

I think if you see what I mean, you're in business, you're doing business

with people, but that's not the same as having a business because a

business will generally be something that has some commercial value that,

you know, somebody, the right person may be interested in investing in.

And also, I mean, for me, CEO thinking is also deciding whether

you want that as well, because.

Having a practice or a team or having, um, even their passive income.

I have so called passive income problem products.

They're not passive at all.

You know, Christmas day, if something goes wrong, uh, someone tries to buy one

of your products, it probably will be me that has to jump on and try and fix it

Okay.

As the CEO of our business or in thinking like a CEO in trying to grow

and create a business, if we're in business, but don't necessarily have one.

What are the key things that we should be doing that we might not be doing already?

Remember, don't forget to subscribe to my free weekly email newsletter.

You can do that at mrjonclayton.co.uk/abc.

And if you are enjoying this episode then please visit podchaser.com,

search for Architecture Business Club and leave a five star review.

Now, back to the show.

Yeah, so the first one we've touched on quite a lot, which is

obviously strategic planning and, having that, you know, forward planning, knowing

where you're going and then working out the best tactics to get there.

Um, data.

So, you tracking data, know what data you're going to track.

Again, the reason that a CEO of a big company can tell, could tell

you, if they were to tell you, they probably wouldn't, what their

financial goals are or whatever, and they can publish a report every year,

um, is because they're tracking.

So they're, they're looking at sales.

They're looking at increases.

they're looking at, you know, which product lines or which services are

selling the best, you know, they're, they're, they're making decisions

about what to continue with and, and, and, you know, what, what isn't worth

their investment of time and resources.

So tracking data.

So for example, I gave an example, I think I said this earlier, but

a lot of clients will say they'll, they'll pluck a figure out the

air of how much they want to earn.

I say, okay, well.

How are you going to get there?

Um, Oh, well, I'm not really sure.

Like what are your best selling products or services?

Oh, I don't really know.

Um, and the other thing is actually commercial viability.

And this is something I've been starting to talk about a lot.

And actually my choir was probably quite a good example because, um, You can

have some, sometimes I think, and I, and I think it may be less, less so in

the architectural industry, but you'd be able to, uh, put me right on that.

But a real common problem I see is people trying to sell things that they want

to deliver, but people don't want to buy . Um, and, and so, you might feel

really passionate and you might think that all the people that you, your ideal

customers and clients need to have these skills or need to have this service, but

if they don't get that, it doesn't matter.

How, how, how you put it.

So, so my best, um, top most downloaded podcast actually in my latest series was,

is your online course commercially viable?

Like how do you know if people want to buy something?

And the truth is you'll never know whether people want to buy a particular product

or service until you actually get out there and, and, um, put it on the market,

but really understanding what your.

ideal customers or clients problems are and making it your

business to find out what it is.

I did something interesting actually on, I ran a virtual event

recently and to show people what I meant by this is quite risky.

I do like to take a risk, but I said, look, I'm going to create

an offer with you on live.

I mean, I'm going to write the copies, the sales copy for this offer.

Uh, and it was actually a.

a one off consulting session.

And I said, look, if you could do like 90 minutes with me and I could help you like

achieve like a particular goal with a 90 minute session, like what would you want?

And what they all said was, um, they would want me to help them create a

commercially viable office to, to really kind of like hone, it could be a new

service or it could be something that they already had that wasn't selling very

well and crucially have to copy like, so that, so, because the problem is I think.

Is if you could have a great product or service that really transforms.

people's businesses or lives or whatever.

But if you can't find the right words to say that, or you're not

able to articulate the value of it, then it's not going to sell.

Um, so I think that's really important as well.

So understanding your value, having social proof that you can deliver

the results that you say that you can, and really be able to have

those commercial conversations.

So again, you know, a CEO of a company, while they might not be doing it

themselves, something they really do understand is how it delivers

value, what the transformation is.

And being able to do great sales calls and again, a CEO, like wouldn't

necessarily be doing those themselves, but they would understand the importance.

Of having people who can have great sales conversations, who can write a

great proposal, who understands, a team of marketers or whoever, who can

understand how to sell the benefits of it.

It, it's a lot, and so I think that's a really understanding commercial

viability, understanding how to create products or services people want to buy.

Being able to have great sales conversations.

Really listen to what people are saying.

And when I said at the beginning about people not knowing how to get a client,

it was just such a shock for me because, and it was, I think because of all

is that like online, you know, make millions overnight, all those sort of

views out there, I was getting people who literally had invested in like every

program under the sun, um, marketing wise, but just didn't know basic stuff.

Like, you know, the easiest way to get a client is probably to go to a networking

or probably to make a list of people you've worked with before or colleagues

and ask for recommendations or referrals.

So I think making it your business to, to get those kind of business

skills because you are a salesperson,

Do you think that part of that is that people will

sometimes gravitate to the Sales and marketing activities that

feel in their zone of comfort.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think it's because, um, there's that risk of rejection.

So if you post some stuff on Instagram and no one replies, you can say, oh.

Oh, well, it was the algorithm or whatever, you can blame it

on something else or just say perhaps people aren't interested.

If you email somebody and ask for a referral or if you, um, reach out to a

previous client and say, Hey, I've got some space in the diary and I was thinking

about you for this, that's, you're more likely to get rejected, aren't you?

Um, and so people spend a lot of time, I think, procrastinating.

A real learning for me over the last decade is how much people will move

towards the marketing activity, sometimes because they think they're fun, like

personally, I think it's much more fun.

But, but also sometimes because they're scared of being rejected.

But actually, if you can master these essential skills of, knowing how to

get clients, real old school, make a list of Who you've worked with

before or what connections you've got, ask for recommendations, referrals,

know how to reach out to people, follow up, have those conversations.

That that's your key to freedom in a way, because if you, if you really, if

you can get really commercially minded and you can, you can get good at that

stuff, you know, I generated about five brands of income in about half an hour or

something, um, no fancy sales pages, by the way, I didn't, I, I, I sent the offer.

I'm not joking even, um, on a Google doc.

No, no fancy sales pages or whatever, because if people feel that you

understand their problem and you're able to articulate that they, they will buy

I have this great idea that I'll spend months writing the

copy for it and investing money in a new sales page on the website.

Totally reverse engineering that the way that you've done it by getting yourself

in front of your ideal audience and asking them, actually surveying the audience

and saying, what are you struggling with?

What are those biggest struggles and what, what would be the ideal

way for me to help you with those?

What's the outcome that you've been looking for and what would

you be willing to pay for it?

Actually reverse engineering it that way, I think is like genius.

Such a good idea.

can I pick up on, on that question?

What would you be willing to pay?

That's actually.

a question that I feel personally, you should never have to ask

if you understand your value.

And if you ask somebody, what would you be willing to pay?

They'll go either I don't know, or they'll say as little as possible.

CEO thinking is people will pay what that transformation is worth.

to them.

So people often ask me questions about pricing.

So for, I'll give you an example.

So I sell strategic copywriting campaigns and they start at 5, 000 pounds.

And, and so what I do is I do, um, somebody might come to me

and they've got a very specific, uh, launch in mind and whatever.

And, and for the, for the wrong client, they'll go, Oh my God,

5, 000 pounds or whatever for the right client, they go brilliant.

So I'm going to get somebody who's going to.

Who's going to take the time to really understand my product or service, who's

going to help me look at every part of the process and the funnel, sales

page, emails, social media, whatever we decide, you know, whatever is going out.

Somebody who's got the experience, who's done it before, has got the

social proof, you know, and has got all the testimonials to say that they've

helped people get great results.

I worked with a client recently who, she had a group.

Program.

And she was doing all right.

Like she, she was getting people in, but she was just really busy

delivering and she wasn't, she, she wanted to increase the numbers and

she just wanted it to feel easy.

So I worked with her, uh, to work on all of her content, uh, the

strategy, crucially, and, um.

She, she generated 22 leads for that and she only needed 10 before

she even opened the enrolments.

The price of her program, I think was about two and a half thousand.

So she's going to make that calculation and go, well, if I

am able to sell two of these, like, , two more than I normally do.

Like this is a great investment and it's not just an investment for now.

It's an investment because she does it four times a year and I've got rinse

and repeat process that I can tweak.

So for the right client,

you can charge what you like, and also remember people are

buying your years of experience.

So, CEO thinking is not like how much do people want to pay, but it's

actually what, what is my service worth?

And, and for someone who is going to invest in this.

service or product, like if you've got the social proof, I can really

confidently charge that because I know that I've delivered that result.,

we could talk for hours on this, this whole, the whole pricing thing.

One little point I wanted to just touch upon was that I think one

of the key things is communicating the value that's being offered,

particularly in architecture.

A lot of people, um, Still looking at it like we're exchanging time for money

you know, they might not be selling the services by the hour necessarily,

but often it can be a fixed price.

That's based on an estimated number of hours.

But that thing you mentioned, it's not just the fact that with your service

that they're getting the campaign written for them or the course created,

the paying for all that experience.

And I think that's one of the huge disadvantages for those

consultants that do charge hourly.

You deliver the service quicker and you get penalized if you

charge by the hour, you get less money, which is absolutely bonkers.

You're delivering a better, more efficient service for the

customer and you get paid less.

Totally doesn't add up at all.

And that's me having a little bit of a rant about that.

Um, so I'll get off my soapbox.

but I mean, that's a key skill is about being able to design

offers and services and to, um, when someone comes to you and says, um,

Oh, how much would it be for this?

You having that conversation with them?

Um, I just an example I often give is like, I, I was approached

by university few years ago to do some training for them.

Um, and it was thousands and thousands of pounds at the time didn't know any better.

It's like, yeah, great, whatever.

When I got there, it was like a hornet's nest because.

They'd basically hired an advertising agency to create this like branding

style guide and brought me in to teach writing for the web because they

wanted all of their academic staff to, to write stuff for the website and

upload it, but they hadn't told anyone.

So me now would have said, well, I need to have a sales call.

You know, I don't just do a day rate.

I'd have listened to what they said.

And I would have said, well, look, you know, my expert advice is.

You need to, there's a bit of communication work you need to

do there to make sure everybody knows about it on board.

I'm happy to help.

you with that.

But I can't deliver these workshops without this key communication piece.

And so that potentially could have been, you know, 5000 into 15 So it's also about

that as well about about when you're quite skilled at having those sales

conversations, you can take a relatively small Oh, it's this many hours and

potentially if you really understand what the needs are, it doesn't mean everyone's

gonna say yes to it, but you can actually go back with a bigger piece of work.

Janet, that has been absolutely brilliant.

I think there's, there's so many, um, You know takeaways from that episode.

It's been really really useful.

Is there anything else that you wanted to say?

Particularly about CEO mindset and thinking like a CEO that

we haven't already covered in the course of the conversation

think we've covered most things, haven't we?

But I think it is just about having the bigger picture.

It's okay to be a freelancer or a contractor, like that's fine.

Um, but if you, if you want your business to run without you, if you potentially

want something that you could sell that's got value or that could generate income

when you're not around, the CEO thinking will really help and just being more,

you know, just help you make more money.

Um, that example I just gave there.

is potentially taking, you know, a couple of thousands worth of work to,

you know, multiple tens of thousands.

And, and, and, you know, even if you do want to be a freelancer or contractor,

just thinking more strategically.

And this is something I haven't mentioned actually is confidence as an expert.

So there's, again, we could do a whole episode on this, but I think

a lot of people lack confidence when they go out into the.

Into the market, you know, having been employed by a firm and they, they

have this kind of, I'll take what I get mentality, but you are an expert.

And, um, having the confidence to say, actually, I know you, you wanted to have a

conversation with me about this, but from what you've said, I, I, I, I think you

actually need to do this, this, and this.

And, and having the confidence to, to, um, to say no as well.

And again, a CEO, you know, doesn't just say yes to everything, including

things that aren't aligned with.

you know, the business vision.

Um, I think a freelancer contracted mentality can also be, oh, I'll just

take everything that comes my way.

Um, and actually when you're more, uh, secure on who it is you want to work

with, how you want to work with them, and you've got that vision, um, generally

everything is a lot easier, but, um, hopefully that's just a helpful addition.

It's probably loads more, but that's some, yeah, just that kind of self confidence.

Absolutely.

Yeah, that's something that's so lacking with so many people and the

power of saying no, actually, you know, if you're saying yes to one

opportunity, you're saying no to another.

So actually being brave to be able to say no, particularly when you

sometimes you get a gut instinct, don't you, about whether Somebody's

going to be a good client or not.

And, um, yeah, I've started to say no a lot more over the years.

I started out and it was yes to everything, but not any, not anymore.

Thankfully.

Um, Janet, there was just one other question I wanted to ask.

Um, it's not topic related, but I, I love to travel and discover new places.

And I just wondered if you could tell me like one of your favorite places

and what you love about it, just out of interest and curiosity, could be anywhere,

could be the end of your street or somewhere on the other side of the world.

Is there anywhere that springs to mind as one of your favorite places?

Yeah, I've traveled quite a lot with work all over

the place, and there isn't a particular place that stands out.

A place where I feel very comfortable.

Um, I was actually, although it doesn't sound like it, I was born in Liverpool.

And um, I think it's an amazing place and a wonderful city.

And I certainly feel very at home there.

Um, but yeah, that doesn't sound it?

I feel like I should be saying something more like exciting.

Um, but I think any travel or any new place I've visited

always has something to offer.

Um, in terms of Just meeting new people and having new experiences.

So, yeah, I wish I could say something that sounded a bit more.

No, that's absolutely fine.

Liverpool, Liverpool's an awesome city.

I've, um, I didn't visit there up until probably within the last, I don't

know, five to ten years of my life.

And I, I can't even remember the specific reason.

I think I went for like a city break there with my wife.

We had an amazing time.

Such a fantastic city.

So definitely recommend people go visit if you've never been before.

And an amazing history of music as well, if people are into music.

Could you just remind everybody, um, firstly, where's the best place

for people to connect with you?

If you want to connect with you online, get in touch with you, where's

the best place for them to do that?

So I think probably I have a Facebook page, which

is Janet Murray, Facebook.

Business business strategy, a Facebook page, business strategist and copywriter.

Um, but I'm everywhere else where we're online.

Um, and, um, I had the podcast, the survey courageous CEO podcast.

And if what I've been saying about these.

Strategic skills has really resonated.

And you're like, yes, I need to know about all of that stuff.

My courageous CEO, um, strategic business plan and resource kit, um, has got a

comprehensive business strategy, training, audio training, some a podcaster,

which goes through all of this stuff.

how to come up with commercially viable offers, how to put together

packages, how to design them, how to write copy that sells your,

um, social products and services.

Um, also how to, um, have sales calls and follow up and write great proposals.

So a lot of those foundational skills that a lot of us we get in business.

And like we kind of get some of them and then sometimes we have to go

back sometimes and fill in the gaps.

I certainly had to.

Well, it's basically what I wish I had when I started all the templates.

So templates for sales calls follow up as well as thousand social media templates.

Basically anything you need to do in your business.

I have a template for it.

I've basically just given everything.

that I use every day in my business, um, to, to help me generate

sales and consistent sales.

Um, so that's the 2024 career courageous CEO, strategic business plan and

resource kits and massive mouth mouthful.

It's even harder to say than architectural.

Um, actually, but I managed it.

And there's a special discount code, um, which is, um, John 97, um,

which will get you 50 pounds off.

Um, and my discount codes providing Yeah.

The product's still available.

Uh, they're live for 90, 90 days.

Oh, that's absolutely awesome.

Thank you so much, Janet.

I will make sure that those links and the discount code

go in the podcast show notes.

So if you're listening to the podcast, uh, just go and check

out the show notes on your.

Podcast app of choice go and look at the description.

All the links will be in there.

Go ahead and grab one of those from Janet Um, i've bought lots of products

from Janet before and attended a lot of events and everything that she

creates is absolutely amazing And ever so useful, so please go ahead and take

advantage of that discount Okay, Janet.

Thanks again.

It's been a pleasure to have you on the show

Thanks so much for having me.

Next time I'll be chatting with Laura Robinson about

bite sized one-to-one experiences, otherwise known as first date

offers that can lead your clients towards your higher priced services.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Architecture Business Club.

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