Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. Welcome. Gada, introduce yourself to the audience, please. Hi, and thank you for

having me. My name is Gada Sasa. In Arabic, that's Radha Sasa. I am a third generation

Palestinian refugee. My mom is from a village near Nablus called Madama. And my father is

from the city of Ramle, which is now part of what's considered Israel, but we refer to as

1948 Palestine. And I'm a PhD candidate in international relations at McMaster University, where I write

about Israeli green colonialism and I'm working on finishing my degree. Well, you can't go

and drop a term like that and not explain a little bit more. What is Israeli green colonialism?

Sure. So I look at how Israel weaponizes environmentalism or uses environmental policies like national

parks and nature reserves to colonize Palestinian land.

American Independence Park, which Israel has established over several Palestinian villages

with the aid of American taxpayer money and the work of the Jewish National Fund, a registered

charity in Canada and many other countries in the world, even though this is primarily a

colonial and racist institution. And so yeah, I look at how Israel planted pine trees over

destroyed Palestinian villages, literally to cover up the rubble, to Europeanize the land

while they... They're planting these invasive pines all at the same time, deforesting the

native flora, like the olive trees. And then, of course, it's part of this broader agenda

to kind of greenwash their occupation, to talk about how they're making the desert bloom.

And as if nobody lived in Palestine before, or as if Palestinians neglected their land.

And yeah, it's used as a way for it to greenwash its regime of apartheid and ethnic cleansing.

And at the same time, it also greenwashes its crimes, not only against the Palestinian people,

but also the environment, right? So what I do is kind of like locate Israel's actions within

a broader history. So I look at how international parks, for example, were invented by the United

States, right? And I look at how Western environmentalism puts this separation between nature and humans

that doesn't really exist. and it advocates for the exclusion of people, especially women,

people of color, and poor people from nature, so-called nature in order to protect it. And

so nature is used as a tool to justify many human rights violations. And so I actually

look at Palestinian environmentalism and other forms of environmentalism as examples of how

we can challenge the human nature binary in order to ensure that we're protecting human

rights as well as the environment. Yeah, so I guess that's a summary of my research. That's

fascinating. And it's not even why we called you in here to have a discussion. I feel like

maybe we should have that that's an episode in itself. Because we see greenwashing used

as a tool for many, many things. Didn't realize apartheid was one of them. But, you know, that's

why we're always learning. I actually called you in here because of the massive amount of

work that you are doing surrounding political prisoners, Palestinian political prisoners

in Israeli jails. Sorry.

And even though the audience will understand my disdain for electoral politics, and we'll

get into the possibilities in a little bit, but you do a lot of your work in and around

Parliament Hill. I mean, you might not always physically be there, but your targets and appeals,

literally some of your words have been to the elected. And I kind of wanted to get into that

with you on how effective you feel that is, but also the different ways in which you need

to engage with these people. Because we typically talk about engaging in your immediate community,

not necessarily with the powerful. And although I don't wanna do that work, I understand it

needs to be done. So let's give people an idea of what it's like. to advocate for Palestine

on Parliament Hill?

Yeah, sure. Thank you. So basically I have been following the case of Ahmed Manasra, who is

a Palestinian, who's been imprisoned by Israel since he was 13 years old and tortured by them.

So essentially he was arrested at first, accused of stabbing Israeli settlers. settlers, him

and his cousin, Hassan. Hassan was immediately killed at the scene and Ahmad was run over

by a car, a settler car. And there was like a horrible image, that video that emerged at

the time, it went viral of Ahmad, you know, essentially, you know, bleeding to death and

settlers just cursing at him. And then he was hospitalized. At the time, actually, I think

it was falsely announced that Ahmad had died and I just... couldn't believe it. Like I just

thought, wow, I just saw someone like die. Like, and then basically we found out actually he

survived, but, you know, you saw him handcuffed in the hospital and then he was brutally interrogated.

There was a video that leaked, I guess, of Israeli interrogating him without his parents or lawyers.

Ahmed kept saying, I can't remember. He obviously had a brain injury and, From what I understand,

he was also possibly on sedatives, so there's a lot of illegalities going on. Despite all

this, the Israeli court's actually cleared that he was innocent, but since he was 13, he's

been in prison, and he's just turned 21 at the beginning of this year in January. And not

only is he in prison, but since November 2021, Israel held him under solitary confinement.

And so his trial was actually supposed to take place last Wednesday, but Ahmed was too sick

to attend. He was hospitalized. And so Israel delayed his trial date, but they also renewed

his solitary confinement for another six months. So Ahmed's health physically and mentally is

deteriorating because obviously like he, it is kind of torture, right? According to international

law, more than 15 days of solitary confinement. prohibited and cruel torture. And at this point

they've kept him for almost two years now and it's going to be more than that. So he has,

you know, been diagnosed with schizophrenia, severe depression and yeah, so basically his

life is on the line, right? He is suicidal right now and I guess, yeah, it's, for a long time

I have been, you know, engaged with pro-Palestine work. because I guess I mostly grew up in so-called

Canada, but I am Palestinian, I have my family back home right under occupation, it's my responsibility

I feel to act and defend. And I speak out not just for the Palestinian community, I speak

out for LGBT rights, I speak out for like... women's rights, I advocate in general against

injustice, even when that's calling out my own community. And basically, for a while, I felt

like I had to take a bit of a break from my activism. But in December of last year, when

I heard that it's renewed Ahmad Salah, you can find me, I just thought I kind of had to drop

everything and just do something for this man, this boy. And I just, I don't know why I had

this idea that in January... I just thought I would love to do something on his birthday.

And it just so happened and when I looked it up, it was in January. And it fell on a Sunday.

So everything kind of fell in line. And I am a believer, so I do feel like sometimes, I

know God just makes things really easy. And so I thought, okay, maybe this is an interesting

idea. So we did a birthday protest and it was outside of the Israeli consulate in Toronto.

It was a snowy day, but we had balloons, gifts, and it was really beautiful. We blocked the

intersection and... and we had a protest there, we gave some speeches. And yeah, I guess like,

what I thought was maybe like an interesting or strange idea actually took up because like

all the major Palestine and like human rights organizations, even Amnesty International,

they were all talking about Ahmad on his birthday and like making their own posts or even I saw

there were protests for Ahmad in like, in the U.S. and other places. So yeah, that was really

encouraging. So I guess my first instinct was to go to the community to mobilize and you

know we got endorsements from Defense Children International Canada and like Amnesty and Independent

Jewish Voices and all these groups. And then basically, so yeah nothing was really planned

for me to directly engage with government officials because like you I'm actually quite disillusioned

with the electoral politics and... the system because, you know, just having studied science

and having just, you know, I, for example, a couple of years ago, I was elected as the representative

for graduate students on the board of governors at McMaster University, which is the highest

decision making body. And I just saw how corrupt it was on the inside and how difficult it is

to make change when, you know, there's, you know, one or a few of you fighting for change,

but then the rules are changing. And then it's just a very, honestly, it was very traumatic

experience being on there when you're constantly lied to and gaslit and just treated poorly,

right? So, but actually I noticed Alexandre Boudérice, he's an MP based in Quebec. And

he just kept like, he was one of the first people, you know, to like my post about Ahmadzadeh,

like, okay, I have to reach out to him, right? So I reached out to him and, you know, I thought

maybe let's just do a petition. And sure enough, he agreed. And he read it in Parliament. And,

you know, as like, as Palestinians, we're so deeply erased by the Canadian government and

just worldwide that for like, you know, sometimes the bare minimum is like huge. So for them

to say Ahmed's name in parliament, for them to... Yeah, I thought that was impactful. And

obviously the response that we received from the Canadian Foreign Ministry was disgraceful.

They didn't even mention Ahmed's name. They just gave this whole usual, oh, Canada supports

peace between Israel and Palestine. Always Israel first, right? And like... advocate for Israeli

children before Palestinian children, as if Israeli children are the primary victims. So

it was just like a terrible statement, not really addressing any of our points. Basically, we

were saying, you know, UN human rights experts have demanded Ahmed's immediate release. Same

with Amnesty International. Like, we're not asking for the moon here. We're just asking

for them to issue a statement, right? I mean, I would hope that Canada opposes the imprisonment.

torture of children and prisoners in general. So yeah, I mean, it wasn't altogether surprising.

And actually, I decided to do the press conference in parliament when I was being encouraged by

politicians who support Palestine to do this. And as far as I'm concerned, it was the first

Palestinian press conference in parliament. So again, for me, that was... As far as I know,

I haven't seen anything like that. And I've asked- You're not joking when you say, you

know, Palestinians and Palestinian voices are erased by the Canadian government. Like I know

that there's no official liaison group, right? You folks have had to kind of create their

own, nothing government funded in terms of advocating for Palestine. They're not recognized as a

state by the Canadian government. And in all these years of Palestine and Israel issues

coming up, right? The amount of massive incursions, the rulings on the occupation. This is like

the first time they've allowed a Palestinian to speak. Yeah. I don't know. I think I don't

think there's so much allowing Palestinians to speak, but I don't know. I feel like there's

just been such heavy erasure. And you know, Dr. Mohandad Daesh and you know, he's a Canadian

Palestinian professor. He talks about how like Palestinians were so toxified, right? So people

are afraid of even talking about Palestine, let alone in a place like the parliament, right?

That's like severely like surveilled. So I can understand why people hesitated. But we thought

basically it was a Monday and May 15th, it fell on the 75th anniversary of the Nakba. And we

also wanted to... The United Nations was recognizing the Nakba for the first time, commemorating

it. And so we were calling on Canada to commemorate Nakba Day, but also to speak about Ahmad and

urge for his release. So we held his photos and it was really great. We had representatives

of several groups speak, including one called Canada Stand Up for Palestinian Children and...

This is a Christian group, we had independent Jewish voices there. We had a member of Association

of Palestinian Canadians based in Ottawa. And also we had an Aqaba survivor, so that was

really powerful. And he spoke about how he was ethnically cleansed in his family, and how

his young teacher, like sister, was martyred by the Israeli regime. And their expulsion,

so I was there to translate for him from Arabic. That was powerful. Unfortunately, how Palestinians

are treated is we didn't get much press coming to document or to ask us questions. And I sent

emails to many journalists and many alternative media, mainstream media, news tips. I thought

at least, this is like, I was trying to say May 15, Nakba Day, and everything going on

globally that maybe it would get the attention, but. still, you know, and we released before

that like press advisories in English and French. So that was of course kind of disappointing.

The Hill did write a little bit about us, which was nice. The newspaper based in Ottawa. But

other than that, honestly, it was again relying on like a lot of the past and Saudi groups

locally that kind of shared our videos and got our word out. And then in the evening of May

15, actually, there was an event called Palestine on the Hill. And so it was, this event was

like 700 people, there were ambassadors and like a lot of MPs. And it was basically, speaking

about the Nakba and they had some like cultural exhibits. And so I actually managed to be able

to speak on stage. I asked the organizers and I just drew attention to them. Hey, this morning

we had a press conference and none of you were there. I'm specifically looking at the MPs,

right? The media wasn't there. And it was so nice to like know that they're somewhat there

or, you know, being half having to listen to you. But basically... My speech was probably

the most well received of the night because it just came from the heart and it was advocated

for Palestinian prisoners who I feel are really forgotten. And even though they suffer some

of the worst, you know, violence of Israeli settler colonialism, you know, it's one thing

to get martyred but to be tortured for years and it's just it's a horrible thing. So, yeah,

basically I presented a bit about it and I realized after that while I was speaking, the MPs were

basically having a photo shoot on the side and there were photographers on stage almost bumping

into me. If you see the videos. Trying to get a better shot of them. Because yeah, I was

going to ask you about photo ops and you know, at one point you did name drop Alexandra Bourissier

and I've seen you come. and thank him for coming through for Palestine. And I was going to say,

you know, is that what does that look like on the Hill? Is that more often than not showing

up for a photo op and not making the kind of boulder statements that you need made? I mean,

kudos for the petition. We know the NDP is supposed to be shifting their position. there according

to what members had passed in their last convention, right? So there should be more room for work

there within that party and getting it to the floor. But it seems like that's a bit of a

rare commodity in terms of actionable items that politicians do. Right. And so, yeah, picturing

you spilling your heart out, especially these personal connections that you're making with

this work. right, talking to families and how you must internalize a lot of that, especially

as a Palestinian yourself. And then seeing that opportunistic imagery and all that politicking

that you have to put up with. But it's tough though, like, especially when we're talking

about Palestine, and I'm, you know, kind of criticizing for spending time in parliament,

perhaps. It's not a local issue. So although you do. need the community on board. I think

we know that most Canadians don't agree with solitary confinement, that they don't agree

with the occupation, that they understand that the war crimes have been committed there, are

being committed there. It's really the politicians that are lagging in terms of doing something

about it. And then you've got that added disadvantage of essentially lobbying a foreign government.

Canada can make a statement and that would add political pressure. But in the end, you need

Israel to act. And so that is a far way removed. When we talk about the political pressures

that we have to put in there to get what we want or what needs to happen, that's a tough

job for you folks, especially as the diaspora. So you not only have to deal with the barriers

that exist within the Canadian government, right? The Zionist attitudes that exist within the

ruling party there. But even that is still far removed from your goal. of direct pressure

to Israel to do the right thing. Yeah, exactly. I guess I wanted to go back to the May 15 press

conference. Basically, I actually sent an email in advance to a bunch of the MPs who were supposed

to be in solidarity with the palace. A lot of them showed up to the event in the evening

and all of them told me, oh, like, we're busy. If they respond, a lot of them just didn't

even respond. So that was disappointing, you know, and Alexandre Boulneris also couldn't

come. And, yeah, of course, I do wish that they do more, you know, and I feel like a lot of

excuses are made for politicians. Like, oh, you know, like they're busy or like, you know,

like I'm personally, I know I'm so inspired by you, Jess, I know you for so long and I

know how you speak truth to power and you, you know, and like I'm, I'm very much like the

same. I am there to speak honesty. I'm a principled person. And so it's hard for me to like understand

that because like, you know, like people should know that yes, people who speak about Palestine

can be demonized. right? But it's like not as bad as what Palestinians are facing. And I

think people sometimes don't grasp like, you know, people talk about Palestinians being

so brave. Well, there's a reason we're so brave because we're literally facing a genocidal

project. All settler colonial regimes, including the Canadian regime, are genocidal. They're

based on eliminating all natives, right? And so this is why we feel like we have nothing

to lose. Even though I am, you know, living, I'm forced to live. side of Palestine, you

know, I was never able to visit even my dad's city of Framle, because I have a Palestinian

ID for my mom, so I can't visit, can't live there. But, you know, it's like, I can't escape

the trauma of statelessness, my culture being eroded, just, you know, the violence, institutional

violence and all the other forms of anti-Palestinian racism, I face all the time here. So I don't

know where I'm going with this, but... Sorry, I went out on a rant, you know, I got emotional,

I don't know. Well, we met at York University doing Palestinian activism. And I can attest

even back then as a student, watching the institutional racism play out on people's lives. And I surely

witnessed the demonization of anything Palestinian, quite literally, right? mural with the flag,

voices, any actions were always countered, but at the highest level as well. Right? You talk

about the Board of Governors at McMaster, you've gone up against the Board of Governors at York.

What are those barriers like for you? Because that bravery might be by necessity, but there's

a lot to discourage you from doing this work. Right, like there is probably a lot of personal

toll that you've experienced that a lot of folks would just need to stop. And in fact, you did

have to take a break. But maybe you can share with folks just without sharing any specific

traumas, or if that's what you want to do. But I don't mean for this to be trauma porn. But

I don't think people truly grasp how combative it is to simply demand for human rights in

Palestine. Because as a white person, even I feel it. And when I go to speak on Palestine,

in the back of my mind, I know someone out there is gonna call me an anti-Semite. I know it.

I have to brace for it, right? And I have to persevere regardless. And I'm not trying to

make myself sound courageous, but I'm telling you what my thought process is every single

time. Every time I use a hashtag free Palestine or anything, or I even wanna like something.

It goes through my brain that I am just, I am asking for it in a way. I am opening myself

up to what I have experienced myself. But that's at the smallest level. I'm not sticking my

neck out as an academic in that way. Yeah. I mean, it's, um, so I guess I just remembered

now what I want to say. I wanted to say actually, so I hinted at this, but I do speak out on

Twitter, even sometimes against, like I speak out about my own community. Right. And what

I mean by that, I mean the Palestinian Saudi community more broadly. So, for example, I

said Independent Jewish Voices joined us for the press conference. Until now, Independent

Jewish Voices has not taken a stance against Zionism. Right. Even though they're, you know,

a comparable organization, which is Jewish Voices for Peace in the U.S., they have taken a stance

against Zionism. I went to, you know, Independent Jewish Voices conference this year, and I was

just disappointed that I felt constantly erased. as a Palestinian by allies, right? And I don't

want to get into that too much, but even I said there was a member of the Association of Palestinian

Canadians from Ottawa who joined us for the press conference. He didn't mention Ahmad's

name at all, okay? And I spoke to him before because he had just sent me the speech. I asked

him to speak about Ahmad, but unfortunately a lot of Palestinians are even afraid to touch

the issue of prisoners. Okay? Why? Because they think that, you know, like, I don't know, I

guess they think they'll be targeted, you know, because like, you know, like the prisoners

are like somewhat criminal or, yeah. Like, I don't know. I don't think they believe that,

of course, but it's like, there is just like so much fear, right? And it's not, you know,

it's just like a lot of organizations. I mean... I'm a board member for Canadians for Justice

and Peace in the Middle East, right? And like, there's even troubles there trying to get them

to be involved. So I'm saying like, of course you look at politicians and then you look at,

you know, and it's disappointing because of course, Palestinian youth movement, there's

like a lot of segments of the Palestinian population that are like extremely courageous and outspoken

about these issues. And, but it's just unfortunate that... A lot of times, yeah, we have to push

to unite within the Palestinian Solidarity Movement in so-called Canada. And I think there's a

lot of unity work that needs to be done. Okay. But also, I guess, yeah, so I feel like, okay,

I'll go back then too. So basically what happened is before I advocate for Ahmed, most of the

work I've been doing is around BDS. So getting folks to know why it is important and act on

boycotting Israel, I think that's the most powerful thing we can do as people who live outside

of Palestine. And so, yeah, so when you talk about institutional harassment, I guess, yes,

I am a victim of a lot of institutional violence but also I've been resisting against a lot

of the oppression. For example, at York University, I led a motion calling on my faculty of environmental

studies to end and not renew the relationship with ARAVA, which is an Israeli academic institute

because of its greenwashing and complicity in Palestinian human rights violations. And it

passed. It was possibly the first academic boycott against Israel, North America. It passed 20,

I think it was 15 to 7. And you can bet, you know, I faced like... bullying by professors

there and intimidation. And we saw immediately after that vote won, how Cija, the primary

Israeli lobby in Canada, like went after the president of York, Rhonda Lenton. And I know

this because they literally put it on like their Facebook page. And she released a statement,

but it was so sketchy because it didn't even have her signature. It wasn't sent to all students

like other statements that she does. But it was just kind of like. faculties don't have

the right to boycott, it has to go through me. So she was like clamping down on faculty democracy.

And yeah, and it was just really wild because then a month later, they tried to like reverse

that motion without even telling me. I just happened to find out, you know, the day before

and I went to New York and I defended it. So the motion stayed. But even then basically

they kind of like rewrote the minutes. And then the dean, the dean actually of my faculty,

he voted for my motion at first, okay? And then he came out being like, I don't know what I

was doing, Gata manipulated us. Like the president is right, we don't have the right to boycott,

it has to go through me. Like it's a hortative motion, it goes to the dean, and then the dean

goes like, but I'm like, but you voted for it as the dean, right? Like, so yeah, you can

see how there's so much intimidation, you know? And it's interesting because after I finished

my masters in environmental studies, I was contemplating pursuing law or doctoral studies and a Palestinian

lawyer who's really wonderful at the time advised me to go to law school because he's like, as

an academic, you're always under the mercy of the institution. Right. But, you know, I still

here I am. I kind of just went with the flow and I love studying and teaching. And so it

made sense for me to be in academia. And. I still push wherever I can. For example, two

years ago, we were gonna take part in the International Studies Association Conference. Basically,

this is a conference that happens every year and it's the major one for my discipline. So

all of us go to attend it. It's like, you know, over a hundred countries, I guess, they go

to this conference. And basically, I think two years ago, we were gonna do like the first

BDS panel and it was with like Refuse Ziade and a lot of other big names. And it was plainly

rejected by the ISA because they said, we didn't have a Zionist voice for balance. And so at

the time, basically, I was mostly working with a group of profs on this panel. They were kind

of responding to them and not really going anywhere. It's a panel, not a debate. Yeah, exactly.

So I think I was kind of pushing for more I guess, aggressive approach with them. No doubt.

Because I feel like sometimes academics, they're too afraid to organize and speak up. And they're

too kind of using kind of polite diplomatic language that doesn't do anything, right? And

so about a year later, what happened was actually the conference was like a hybrid model. So

a lot of people actually didn't even go and it was in Nashville. So I actually went at

the time and I got to see the president of the ISA and just confronted him. He's like, send

me the emails. And I did and then basically he said, oh no, your event was canceled because

of the pandemic. And I was like, no, here are the proof, it's clearly not the pandemic. And

then he's like, oh, just apply again. I said, no, I'm not applying again until you ensure

that we are gonna be accepted. It's not gonna be declined and for no reason. And I just made

it clear, this is anti-Palestinian racism. This is suppression of free speech. You know, you

wouldn't go to Black Lives Matter panel and be like, why isn't there a white supremacist

voice, right? At the conference, you know. Or even an environmental and ask for big oil and

gas to take the stage. Right, exactly. Or you don't have, you know, ISA does these like land

acknowledgments. And it's like, you know what I mean? So there's so much hypocrisy. And so

when I sent him that email, I think I was scaring a lot of scholars because I was like, you know,

kind of like speaking for that group. But sure enough, he said, OK. and they guaranteed that

it would be approved and it was approved. So last year we held the panel. It was this time

the conference was in Montreal. Good on you. So, yeah, so I am thankful that I don't just

do activism, but I do see results in my work. I am results oriented, right? Like, unfortunately,

I think it's not just really just about, I think a lot of times in activism and like social

media, I think a lot of people are just like. driven by like, you know, kind of like you

said, it's like the photo ops, it's more like about image. It's not even just the politicians,

right? It's kind of like, just try to look good and put others down and it's not actually about

helping the people of Palestine or the oppressed fight back. So that's why I thought it was,

yeah. And about my writing, I guess I can mention that was interesting because I had... My first

chapter was published by a really well-known journal, thankfully, right? But you know what's

interesting is I've been getting published... I also had a book review published recently,

and it was a very critical book review. And I was advised by the scholars, like, you probably

won't get this approved, right? And I did. And it's not like to say I haven't had challenges,

right? Sometimes you'll have, you know, blind peer reviewers being like, oh, I don't like

what you talk about Zionism, or what kind of Zionism are you talking about? all of Cyanism,

right? Like I have to kind of put my foot down and challenge... Hold the line, right? Because

a lot of times they try to like gaslight me, right? Yeah, and so I just kind of had to exactly

toe the line, so I kind of have to stand up for myself. And sometimes I kind of get threats,

like if you don't do X, Y, and Z as like in your paper, we're not going to approve it,

for example. And then I learned actually peer reviewers don't have that power. It actually

goes down to the editor. So as long as you make a good case. So what I found really useful

in this case, I think in academia in general, is just having a community. For example, PECAN,

which is Palestinian, Canadian Academic and Artist Network, was founded just a couple of

years ago. And it was just so refreshing. I think a year ago when I joined them, I'm on

their steering committee now, but a year ago when I joined them, and I was talking about

complaints, I've fortunately been facing complaints. You know. typical being accused, like you said,

of anti-Semitism or something because of my activism. And somebody asked the group, like

who here had a complaint made against them as like a professor or artist and like everybody

put their hand up. So at least in a sense you feel like, hey, I'm not alone. Because what

happens in a lot of cases kind of try to gaslight you as like a bad person, right? You kind of

have somewhat, I feel like just like some kind of support, someone to vent to, right? So I

feel like community was really helpful and having allies who were just, you know, able to guide

me, like other academics who are, you know, battling against transphobia, for example,

like were able to link about, you know, what we're facing, right? Cause academia can be

very isolating. And I think having a community of people is really helpful. And yeah, I mean,

we just find pockets to push back, right? Yeah, pushing back seems key because when you try

to simply navigate through the tools that they want you to use, right? Get yourself a seat

on the board of governors. Get a petition. Get all the faculties to sign. Get all the student

groups to sign. Present it. Get it passed. And the rules change. The finish line is moved.

And the only time, not the only time, but the successes that you've listed off to us and

the gains that you've made. seem to only come when you are agitating, right? Maybe going

against conventional advice, going against the system head on, making public accusations,

right? Like being loud, not keeping it under wraps, which is typically how things are cordial.

Sorry. Typically how you're encouraged to do things, right? Send an email, sit down with

a private meeting with them. that only goes so far when they're going to turn around and

give you a half-assed effort when, when you need it. So that's a lot of, that's a lot more

work, right? It's like double the work every time to do it through the proper channels.

Cause if you don't, you'll forever be accused of co-opting the system and, and being in that

agitator. So you kind of have to play the game, but also play all those side games involved.

And that's gotta be. exhausting a little bit. So thankfully, you've seen some victories there

that probably keep fueling that fire because even understanding all of the rules, right,

to follow them can be a lot. Right? Like I remember trying to, with the Why U Divest movement at

York, so that was, you know, attempts to get... the entire university to divest from specifically

weapons manufacturers. It wasn't a Palestinian issue in so much that it had to be couched

that way, right? That with the limitations because it was easier because of the resistance you

face any time you said you were doing something pro-Palestine and in fact even the presence.

of Palestinian groups in that movement were enough to label anti-Semitic claims at the

entire group.

As a community, it's nice to see that those connections are made, but at the same time,

how do you not burn out? How do you keep dealing with all of those? pressures and you know you're

it seems like you're always on the offense and defense right like we talked about different

uses of tactics but you're constantly employing both of them it's tricky right but honestly

yeah you do have to of course protect yourself because you know and sometimes that looks like

just me like taking some breaks from activism I'm actually quite sensitive to seeing like

video content so I try to avoid seeing like graphic imagery for example and I have my own

critiques about that I feel like a lot of times you like to humanize as people and it contributes

to I don't know like the normalization of violence and it invades the privacy of the victims but

yeah I think I think you can you kind of try to do what you can at the time for me like

of course besides when I'm still working on Regarding Ahmed, I... Sorry, it's okay. So

basically, I'm still working regarding Ahmed, but I'm also focusing on finishing my degree.

And obviously, like the PhD degree, it gives you a lot of power, because it's like, you

know, as a woman of color, you're already seen as like emotional, irrational, all of that.

And so with a PhD somewhat, you're given some credibility, but you know what's interesting

is... despite all of the difficulties I've had in academia, I mentioned that I did publish

in some really good journals and I am getting invited actually, instead of me having to reach

out to these publishers, they're reaching out to me. So I wanted to say this because I feel

people talk a lot about risks going in, but there's also a lot of reward that I think when

you speak from integrity, like something you're passionate about, you're... you're daring to

speak on a topic a lot of people aren't, right? That opens up a lot of opportunities. Like

a lot of people are just, you know, had a book about post-colonial being like, we're not going

to publish until we get a chapter in Palestine. Can you please write us a chapter? Right. So,

yeah. I mean, yeah. Right. So, yeah, that's really nice. And and you do feel the tide is

changing. And I am I am an optimist and actually do. believe that Palestine will be free by

2030. And I have my own explanation for this.

You can't leave us like that, Gada. Give us hope because that brings me a little bit of

tingles. Yeah. So I remember actually when we had like, I don't know what the York strikes.

I can't remember which year it was. And we had Jamal Jamai. We were inviting him as a SIA

York.

big BDS organizer, we brought him from Palestine. And at the time he explained how like, the

BDS, like BDS Palestine is working around like BDS South Africa, right? As a model. And so

they took about 30 years to be able to dismantle the South African apartheid regime. We started

BDS in 2005, right? But from what I see, there's like a great visual from Visualizing Palestine

that compares. progress of the South African apartheid movement and the Palestinian one.

The Palestinian one actually shows progress faster than the South African one, which you

would hope for because, you know, we would hope that we would have learned from history, right?

Yeah, there's a model. We know we were on the wrong side so you think we would not repeat

it. Right, and I think it's important because a lot of people until now they really dismiss

BDS and, no, BDS has been having a lot of work and, yes, we are seeing this worsening Israeli

government and the colonization is increasing. But at the same time, we are seeing more and

more people know about Palestine, speak up, we're seeing the polls change, we're seeing

the Jewish community is standing up to Zionism more and more. So we are seeing this pushback.

And I think even the election of this far right government is kind of like a sign of like the

end of Israeli apartheid, right? Because even... Absolutely, because as power slips, the fist

grows tighter. Right? And often that has a detrimental effect in the end. It backfires. But it's what

the powerful do when they realize they're losing that grip a little bit. Right. They squeeze

a little tighter. So surely I agree that is a sign. Yeah. And the mask is just slipping

more and more, you know, whatever facade there is. That's why you're seeing Israelis protesting

now, because it's like more overt the fascism. But. Yeah, I guess I personally believe like,

and it's just so interesting. I read this book, I think it was Ali Abunima, something, Justice

in Palestine. I need to get the name of the book, but Battle for Justice in Palestine.

And so the book, I think it was there where it was talking about how nobody expected South

African apartheid to fall just six months before it did, right? Like things when they turn,

they can change so fast. So I think about the same thing that we're likely to be seeing in

Palestine, besides all the on-ground resistance we're seeing. We're seeing, you know, violent

resistance, non-violent resistance across 48 Palestine, Gaza. So, you know, I think I saw

yesterday on the news Gaza Strip, you know, they're burning tires and just like directing

the wind towards like the Israelis. Like, like they're just doing anything at their disposal

every day to resist. Right. So I see how that gives you like for folks who can't see Gaza.

her face lights up as she speaks about these, which seem like really small acts of resistance,

perhaps to us, but inherently put those people in danger. And just, I think I just wanted

to make note of it because those are like sparks that really keep the diaspora going. We've

had guests on here before that have spoken about what it feels like to see the resistance and

not necessarily the violence, because I understand. But parts of the videos that do kind of show

that even under these conditions, if they can keep fighting, surely you can keep fighting.

Yeah, exactly. It takes so much of my strength from people back home. Even like Ahmad, you

know, in his last trial, he was smiling, you know? He has so much strength to still smile.

And like, you know, I just saw the journalist, you know, how are you doing, Salah to confinement?

And he's like... you know, God willing, I'll be free, like, you know, and it just broke

my heart, even when he's asking the lawyer, like, is it haram to commit suicide? Like,

it's horrible, but at the same time, it's like, you know, this young man is just holding onto

his faith, and, and yeah, it's just really inspires me to just keep fighting whenever I can, because

I know I am privileged in so many ways, and another thing I try to keep aware of also is

like, staying in touch with folks back home, my family. And, you know, because I have my

own privilege here and I do often visit Palestine, of course, the occupied West Bank. But yeah,

it's, I think that was actually my first trip to Palestine as like a teenager. So I was old

enough to understand what was happening. That was really what motivated me to do activism

around Palestine, because there's so much like Twitter debate about like, don't visit Palestine,

but BDS, which is, you know, endorsed by a large segment of Palestinian civil society, says

actually encourages people to visit Palestine. Specifically the occupied, you know, Palestinian

territories. And of course, if you are, you know, going on Palestinian led tours, supporting

Palestinian businesses. And from my experience, actually visiting Palestine, even as a Palestinian

was just huge because you don't realize the violence really until you're there. Like you

see the Israeli snipers pointing at you just for driving, little of the day, for no reason,

right? settlers walking around with huge guns, or just like the settlers, just invade your

village and break watermelon, just wreak havoc, burn some trees. So you just see all of that's

happening, and at the same time, you just see the beauty of the Palestinian people, their

generosity. They're like, it's just, it just really inspires to be like, wow, this is such

an enormous injustice, and I wanna do something to help. Yeah. It's funny, not funny, but even

visiting back home has its own controversy built into it. Right. I feel like you had to almost

justify to me there the fact that you would go home and visit family. I mean, I understand

that the premise that you may be giving money to the Zionist government through your travels.

Yeah, the controversy is more based to like, it's directed to non-Palestinians who are visiting

Palestine. I would hope so, because I think that line has to be very distinct, that we

cannot tell people in exile that they should have the right to return, but not yet. No,

of course. And, but no, even for non-Palestinians, as far as I understand, even my experience,

like most Palestinians welcome when people come because it's like they get to see what's happening.

And actually Israel has been... trying to prevent people from going to the West Bank or prevent,

you know, like discourage people, it's dangerous, because they don't want people to see the truth.

And I wanna be careful around that, because some people say, oh, I never visited to like

know the truth. You don't have to visit it, right? And the reality isn't sometimes all

that real. Like a lot of it's manufactured to look in it, right? When you go on an Israeli-led

tour, they're very careful. Oh, I've heard that even myself, like I can't comment on Palestine

and Israel because I have not. visited it. That has been told to me many, many times. So I

don't know anyone to be so nervy as to level that at a Palestinian. But I get that. I often

move to Cuba. It's such a ridiculous argument, right? As if like, you know, for me, I think

what's the most important when learning about any place is centering the voice of the people

who are being oppressed, right? In this case, listening to Palestinians on the ground and

like... There's so much scholarship, and even I on Palestine, now it's hard to see it as

a Canadian, because it's new law. But there's so many now, social media, you just see things

happening all the time, right? You don't really need to be there. Yeah, I just wanted to say,

I think it's unfortunate sometimes people, I feel like they just, you know, activists sometimes

just are like pit. against each other and it's not helpful. Well, we're getting near the end

of our time. And like I said, I know especially this audience, but even the broader general

public here in Canada does not agree with the tenets of Zionism, nor the behaviors of the

Israeli government. What can your everyday person, I know we hold a lot more power than we think

we do, but let's just call ourselves everyday regular people, what can we do to free political

prisoners or to realize a free Palestine in 2030? I think honestly whatever is in your

capacity, right? So maybe that just looks like signing the occasional petition and honestly

that's great. Maybe that looks like maybe you're working for an NGO and you can get them to

issue a statement or you can email your MP calling for the freedom of Ahmad. Even just educating

yourself about Palestine, keeping in touch about what's going on. BDS is huge for us. So...

trying to get companies to divest from, you know, some of the biggest, people think BDS

is like targeting all Israeli companies, but actually targets the few and some of the worst

human rights violators. So you can find that on the BDS movement's website. They cool like

HP, Israeli fruits and vegetables, right? So these are some of the biggest on our list.

So yeah, how do we ensure we're boycotting divestment? divesting from how are we implementing academic

boycott against Israel. So yeah, we all have our own interests, skills and time and privilege

to push in our own way. So I think when people put their mind to it, anything's possible.

Because when it came to the birthday protest, it was just a small idea and it was me and

honestly just a bunch of my friends, most of them not even Palestinian who were like organized

and it was beautifully. done and it was actually watched by Ahmad Manasseh's mom. Like that

was so powerful to me, right? So, you know, if at the very least just that Ahmad knows

that there's people about him who care, right? Everybody on his birthday was talking about

him. For me, that was huge, right? So I think, yeah, it's important to stay hopeful. Don't

get cynical because at the end of the day, yeah, like Israel is an apartheid regime. It's not

going to, you know, these oppressive regimes, they don't last forever. And we as the people

have the power to overturn that. And yeah, so I'll keep leaving it there. I love your optimism.

And thank you so much for visiting the show and sharing your experience and mostly for

just continuing to do the work that you do. I'll be sure to link a lot of this stuff back

into the show notes so folks can dive into it deeper. Look at BDS. perhaps we can load up

that visual that gives you hope in seeing a free Palestine a lot sooner than I think maybe

us pessimists would have thought, but I am renewed in my hope here, not just speaking to you,

but seeing the truth on your face and the way that you light up thinking about it. And so

surely that's contagious. So thank you so much, Gata. Thank you, Jessa. Always a pleasure talking

to you. Yes. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for

joining us. Also a very big thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Halu-Quintero.

Blueprints of Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively. You can follow us on

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