1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,760 What's up, everybody? It's Becky Enzer here. We are back for 2 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,560 another episode and we have two people that we want to welcome 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,760 back. Tony was here a couple of episodes ago. 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,000 I'm so fired up that I got another invite. 5 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,760 Erick. We have not seen him since last season. Welcome back. 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,280 Been too long. I love. I love the setup. 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:28,320 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. 8 00:00:28,540 --> 00:00:29,340 Was our number one gang. 9 00:00:29,340 --> 00:00:31,980 Yeah, yeah, he was. He was. We just kept on scheduling wise, you 10 00:00:31,980 --> 00:00:34,980 know, it was just a lot. But anyways, we're back and we are here 11 00:00:34,980 --> 00:00:38,260 to talk about something super important. But before that, I wanted 12 00:00:38,260 --> 00:00:40,740 to share a quick story. I don't know why I'm sharing it, but 13 00:00:40,740 --> 00:00:45,100 it's. We'll. We'll check. When I was little, right, I grew up in 14 00:00:45,100 --> 00:00:48,100 this really small town called Silver Springs, Texas. And super 15 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:52,020 small or surrounded by a lot of people that, you know, my own 16 00:00:52,020 --> 00:00:55,100 culture, Mexican American culture was all I really knew. And 17 00:00:55,100 --> 00:00:59,020 we went to this Asian buffet place in Silver Springs called Broadway 18 00:00:59,020 --> 00:01:01,380 Buffet Fire. It's still open. It's really great. 19 00:01:02,020 --> 00:01:03,300 I love Asian buffets. 20 00:01:03,460 --> 00:01:06,420 It was great. And I saw this like little dish that had like a 21 00:01:06,420 --> 00:01:12,140 bunch of green stuff in it and my brain was like, oh, I'm Mexican. 22 00:01:12,140 --> 00:01:15,900 This is Mexican. Ish. Like, this has to be guacamole. This is 23 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:20,100 the only possible thing this could ever be. And so I got a plate. 24 00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:23,620 I was little. I don't know how old. I'm not little enough for this 25 00:01:23,620 --> 00:01:26,940 to not have like flagged something in my brain. And I had 26 00:01:26,940 --> 00:01:30,700 like a big old dish of. Of wok is. I thought. And I got like a chip. 27 00:01:30,700 --> 00:01:32,500 And I don't even think it was a tortilla chip. It was just some 28 00:01:32,500 --> 00:01:34,580 type of. Probably like a wonton chip or something. And I like 29 00:01:34,580 --> 00:01:39,500 grabbed it, try to literally like chips and walk it. And I almost 30 00:01:39,500 --> 00:01:44,380 died that day. I almost met my maker that day. I literally spit 31 00:01:44,380 --> 00:01:46,940 it out, made a big scene and ran to the bathroom and stuck my 32 00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:49,460 tongue under the cold water faucet for a long time. 33 00:01:50,260 --> 00:01:53,540 For those of us that have no clue what green substance you're 34 00:01:53,540 --> 00:01:55,380 talking about, you want to let us know what not to. 35 00:01:56,340 --> 00:02:01,340 It was wasabi. I don't recommend it. Especially not in heaping 36 00:02:01,340 --> 00:02:04,140 portion sizes on a wonton chip. I do not recommend it. That 37 00:02:04,140 --> 00:02:06,980 has zero relevance to the topic today. But I just wanted to 38 00:02:06,980 --> 00:02:07,780 share it because I thought it was. 39 00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:11,780 It doesn't lead to burnout. It leads to burning of your. The burning 40 00:02:11,780 --> 00:02:12,100 up. 41 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:15,340 Anyway, so, yeah, if you didn't catch that we are talking 42 00:02:15,340 --> 00:02:18,540 about burnout today and we wanted to talk about it with you 43 00:02:18,540 --> 00:02:23,230 guys having. I haven't necessarily experienced burnout, 44 00:02:23,230 --> 00:02:26,110 but I've gotten to, like, the edge, you know, like right at the 45 00:02:26,110 --> 00:02:29,630 edge or I'm like, looking over and then I get to backtrack. But 46 00:02:29,950 --> 00:02:31,630 have you guys experienced it? 47 00:02:32,510 --> 00:02:33,070 Yeah. 48 00:02:35,950 --> 00:02:38,350 How would you define burnout? I think it's important because I 49 00:02:38,350 --> 00:02:41,950 think that's very. It could be varied definitions of it. 50 00:02:42,430 --> 00:02:47,860 Ooh. Defining burnout. Um, I think. I think more about what it 51 00:02:47,860 --> 00:02:53,140 feels like. It's like, as much as I want to rest, whether that's 52 00:02:53,140 --> 00:02:56,780 physically, mentally, spiritually, there is not enough 53 00:02:57,500 --> 00:03:00,460 ketchup. That gets me to a place where I'm like, oh, I'm operating 54 00:03:00,460 --> 00:03:04,980 once again from a place of overflow. I'll do a Lord of the Rings 55 00:03:04,980 --> 00:03:10,100 reference, which is great resurrection. Bilbo is talking to 56 00:03:10,100 --> 00:03:13,300 Gandalf and he's like, I just feel like butter spread over too 57 00:03:13,300 --> 00:03:18,340 much bread. Where it's like, oh, I'm spread so thin that I can't 58 00:03:18,340 --> 00:03:22,180 possibly catch up. But there's something in me that is driving to 59 00:03:22,180 --> 00:03:26,340 continue to work and to achieve. That was my experience. 60 00:03:27,380 --> 00:03:29,700 To come back to that place of like, well, I have. I just have to 61 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:34,100 get these things done. Like, there's an expectation on me, and 62 00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:36,860 if I don't achieve it, regardless of how I feel, well, then 63 00:03:36,860 --> 00:03:39,860 I'm failing. So I just have to keep going and going and going. 64 00:03:40,070 --> 00:03:44,070 Yeah. Very similarly. Like, I love that analogy of like butter 65 00:03:44,070 --> 00:03:48,310 spread through too thin on a piece of toast. But for me it's like, 66 00:03:48,710 --> 00:03:52,230 then put that same piece of toast, then put it in a toaster and 67 00:03:52,870 --> 00:03:56,070 it stays in there. Like, that's how I felt where it was. Like, 68 00:03:57,350 --> 00:04:00,670 it is a feeling. But the reason I knew I was burnt out was 69 00:04:00,670 --> 00:04:04,150 because of the crash. Like, it was just. Life was in shambles for 70 00:04:04,150 --> 00:04:08,640 me. Family wise, work wise, just mentally, spiritually just felt 71 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:09,000 drained. 72 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,080 And so dryness seems to be something that I'm hearing you guys 73 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,040 say. Right. And unfruitfulness. Is that like. Like 74 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,960 a lack of good fruit being produced? Would you guys. 75 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,680 I mean, it feels like there would be, like, fruit, but maybe 76 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:24,520 not life giving fruit. 77 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:25,040 Yeah. 78 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:32,080 Like, I'm still operating at capacity or maybe way beyond capacity, 79 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,190 I guess is the point. But there's still. I'm still producing, 80 00:04:35,270 --> 00:04:39,150 but it's not. It's not in any way like that. I feel like would 81 00:04:39,150 --> 00:04:43,230 be God honoring or respecting. Yeah. Life giving. Respecting of 82 00:04:43,230 --> 00:04:43,990 my limitations. 83 00:04:44,470 --> 00:04:47,750 Because that's. I think fruit and production are potentially two 84 00:04:47,750 --> 00:04:48,310 different things. 85 00:04:48,310 --> 00:04:49,190 Yeah, that's true. 86 00:04:49,190 --> 00:04:51,510 Because I'm. When I mention fruit and trying to use biblical 87 00:04:51,510 --> 00:04:53,750 language and. So you're producing a fruit. Why would you. 88 00:04:54,070 --> 00:04:54,470 So. 89 00:04:55,510 --> 00:04:57,910 Yeah, anyway, just kidding. Keep going, keep going. 90 00:04:58,710 --> 00:05:02,190 Because we are a gospel centered podcast. That's why I did 91 00:05:02,190 --> 00:05:06,710 that. Yeah. So a lack of spiritual fruit. 92 00:05:06,710 --> 00:05:06,950 Yes. 93 00:05:06,950 --> 00:05:11,790 Probably is. Would be a sense in there. And then specifically. 94 00:05:11,870 --> 00:05:13,950 And I know that you're going to get into this, but when I met 95 00:05:13,950 --> 00:05:17,630 you, you were on the. On the, like, not other side of it, but on 96 00:05:17,630 --> 00:05:21,630 the recovery side of the tail end. Tail end. Trying to recover 97 00:05:21,630 --> 00:05:22,110 from it. 98 00:05:22,270 --> 00:05:22,710 Yes. 99 00:05:22,710 --> 00:05:25,870 And what I heard from you was like, I don't feel like I can move 100 00:05:25,870 --> 00:05:32,310 forward right now in ministry because of it. And I don't know if 101 00:05:32,310 --> 00:05:37,470 that, like, there's. To me, that looks like some. Not lack of 102 00:05:37,470 --> 00:05:40,710 fruit, but, like, can't exercise in the calling that God 103 00:05:40,710 --> 00:05:41,230 has given you. 104 00:05:41,230 --> 00:05:46,870 Yes. Yeah. And there was like. It comes back to expectations of, 105 00:05:46,870 --> 00:05:50,830 like, what I perceived people were putting on me, what I perceived 106 00:05:50,830 --> 00:05:54,400 from the Lord. And some of it. Some of it, I think, was born out 107 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,360 of, like, an immaturity in myself. And so, like, with any burnout 108 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,720 conversation, it was in my own story, really easy for me to cast 109 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,440 blame and be like, oh, it's their fault. It was a toxic work 110 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:10,400 culture or unhealthy. And I've come back to the other side of like, 111 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,840 oh, it's. There's something in me that is also drawing these things 112 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:18,660 out that I had to. I had to deal with both. Like, it wasn't something 113 00:06:18,660 --> 00:06:21,100 I could be like, well, I'm just going to deal with me. Because 114 00:06:21,100 --> 00:06:24,180 there is, like, an external factor that was, like, at play. 115 00:06:24,740 --> 00:06:28,260 So why don't you share some of, like, what burnout was for you? 116 00:06:29,220 --> 00:06:30,980 Yeah, whatever you're comfortable with. 117 00:06:31,140 --> 00:06:32,580 Ready? You excited about this? 118 00:06:32,980 --> 00:06:36,580 Excited? I'm already burnout on this conversation. No, no, no. 119 00:06:37,780 --> 00:06:42,580 Yeah. So was working in ministry. So at 18, started working 120 00:06:42,580 --> 00:06:46,800 at a church as an intern. Um, and the advice that was given to 121 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,800 me by a mentor, which I think taken correctly can be good advice, 122 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:55,560 but I don't think I was mature enough or had the counsel to, like, 123 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,360 really operate well in this was the more, you know, the more 124 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,600 you can do. And so I was constantly like, okay, well, I need 125 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,240 to get my foot in the door. I need to show my value. I need to 126 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,320 become indispensable. So I was just like, well, I'm going to learn 127 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,720 how to do this and I'm going to learn how to do this. And so I 128 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:17,290 moved from intern to like a paid contractor doing social media, 129 00:07:17,290 --> 00:07:22,370 which is obviously your real house. Yeah, yeah. Not. Not anything 130 00:07:22,370 --> 00:07:25,930 that I even remotely care about at this point in my life. 131 00:07:27,050 --> 00:07:29,930 As you're watching clips of this in social media. 132 00:07:30,010 --> 00:07:33,530 Yes, yes. Where it's just like, me personally, like, not super 133 00:07:33,530 --> 00:07:38,330 active on, like, I have them, but I'm not like, yeah, this is my 134 00:07:38,330 --> 00:07:42,670 jam. It's like, oh, wow, passion area. No, definitely not. 135 00:07:44,030 --> 00:07:47,470 So started, yeah, it was like 10 hours a week and then went to 136 00:07:47,470 --> 00:07:51,870 25 hours a week with that. Plus I was band directing on Sundays, 137 00:07:52,110 --> 00:07:56,190 running a student ministry worship team to coming on full time 138 00:07:56,190 --> 00:07:59,670 as a communications person. So I learned how to do web design, learned 139 00:07:59,670 --> 00:08:05,110 how to do like newsletters, email things. Yes. And part of my 140 00:08:05,110 --> 00:08:08,670 own problem was as I was like gaining all these responsibilities, 141 00:08:08,750 --> 00:08:12,360 making myself indispensable. I wasn't releasing responsibility, 142 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,280 I was just like constantly adding. So like, by the time I'm, 143 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,800 I started at 18, by the time I'm 25, I'm basically doing like 144 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,600 three jobs. And I think there was a point in my life where I'd 145 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,480 have worn that as a badge of honor. Like, oh, yeah, I can do three 146 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:32,400 jobs at capacity. It's going to get done. And now it's like, it's 147 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,320 like a pocket of shame of like, oh, I was working way beyond 148 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:42,130 my limits, trying to conjure up, I guess, meaning and approval 149 00:08:42,130 --> 00:08:48,130 for myself. But the culture I was in, like, I won't, I won't use 150 00:08:48,130 --> 00:08:52,850 the word toxic. I think it was unhealthy in that we were very work 151 00:08:52,850 --> 00:08:57,210 driven. Like, it's a, it's about what you can produce versus 152 00:08:57,850 --> 00:09:02,610 fruit. And so got to the point where it's like, well, my value is 153 00:09:02,610 --> 00:09:05,530 in what I can produce, so I just have to constantly produce more 154 00:09:05,530 --> 00:09:10,080 and more and more. And so end of 2019, beginning of 2020, I started 155 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,080 having like anxiety attacks where it was just like, not quite 156 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,760 like a panic attack where you're just like, here's this like 157 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,640 really hyper moment of just like, can't breathe. It was more 158 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:25,640 of like eight hours of just full on anxiety. I'm laid out in 159 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,000 my room. I just didn't feel like I could function. And so I'm 160 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:34,200 like, I should probably go to counseling and get some help. And 161 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,960 just through, through that. I didn't have language around this 162 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,560 at the time, but burnout is what one of the counselors that I 163 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:43,760 met with was like, yeah, you're probably like working way 164 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,119 beyond your capacity to, to function as a person and with the 165 00:09:48,119 --> 00:09:51,440 added pressure of, like, well, I'm working for the kingdom of God, 166 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,240 so shouldn't I, like, essentially work myself to the bone 167 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,100 to see, like, the gospel go out to people and people change lives? 168 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:01,260 And it was just. Yeah, I'm sorry. 169 00:10:01,260 --> 00:10:03,660 It's just that's such a dangerous place to be. But it's, 170 00:10:03,820 --> 00:10:06,220 But I think it's so natural. I'm going back to this. 171 00:10:06,220 --> 00:10:07,260 Super passionate about this. 172 00:10:07,260 --> 00:10:11,540 So, like, I am so even going back to trying to exemplify what 173 00:10:11,540 --> 00:10:14,659 burnout. I think you guys did a really good job at kind of talking 174 00:10:14,659 --> 00:10:18,860 about it. And I was thinking of who was behind the camera. Marty. 175 00:10:19,260 --> 00:10:23,420 And he loves cars and doing burnouts in cars and all that kind 176 00:10:23,420 --> 00:10:26,870 of stuff. And I thought about what's going. The burnout of a car. 177 00:10:26,870 --> 00:10:29,230 Yeah, I know. I mean, but, like, think about it. The wheels 178 00:10:29,230 --> 00:10:31,750 keep turning and turning and turning and turning, and you're burning 179 00:10:31,750 --> 00:10:35,590 through all the rubber, but you're not going anywhere. And I 180 00:10:35,590 --> 00:10:37,510 think that's probably what you, what you. Oh, yeah, you were, 181 00:10:37,510 --> 00:10:39,630 you were, you were turning, turning, turning, burning, burning, 182 00:10:39,630 --> 00:10:43,390 burning. Trying to go somewhere and produce something and 183 00:10:43,390 --> 00:10:47,030 go really fast. Brian, maybe. Or not. Not speed, but, like, much 184 00:10:47,030 --> 00:10:48,150 production, right? 185 00:10:48,150 --> 00:10:48,550 Yes. 186 00:10:48,550 --> 00:10:50,710 And you were, you, you were doing the complete opposite. You 187 00:10:50,710 --> 00:10:54,030 were drying yourself out, and you were coming down to the bone. 188 00:10:54,350 --> 00:10:57,690 Because I had never heard you say that. You at that as a season, 189 00:10:58,250 --> 00:11:02,490 you said a pocket of shame. That's hard because I always saw 190 00:11:02,490 --> 00:11:07,450 that as what, in the time that I've known you, which is about, what, 191 00:11:07,450 --> 00:11:08,490 about four years now? 192 00:11:08,490 --> 00:11:08,970 Four years. 193 00:11:09,850 --> 00:11:13,450 I've always seen that aspect of your life as a place where God 194 00:11:13,610 --> 00:11:19,170 moved in freedom and brought health to your life. So I'd see it 195 00:11:19,170 --> 00:11:22,210 as like, a moment of God doing a lot of really important work in 196 00:11:22,210 --> 00:11:24,890 me. And I just heard you say that it was maybe a pocket of shame. 197 00:11:25,050 --> 00:11:28,080 And I just feel for that because I don't, I don't, man. I, 198 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,760 I, I don't want that for you. I don't want that for anybody. Right. 199 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,800 I, I saw this phrase on, you know, those, like, carousels on Instagram 200 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,640 that's like all these random quotes that are supposed to be inspirational, 201 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,680 and they have this, like, little super exciting Daisy, like, 202 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,680 music in the background. I saw this quote that I actually really 203 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:47,160 liked, and I wrote it down. It's like, maybe burnout is not the 204 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,480 end of your calling. Maybe it's the beginning of a healthier, 205 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:50,440 more honest one. 206 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:51,000 Yeah. 207 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,195 And that was really good because I feel like in the seasons, 208 00:11:54,195 --> 00:11:56,300 that There was a season, maybe, I don't know, maybe I need 209 00:11:56,300 --> 00:11:58,780 to talk more to my counselor about this. But, like, I don't. I 210 00:11:58,780 --> 00:12:01,940 don't feel like I ever got to that point of like, of burnout. But 211 00:12:02,020 --> 00:12:04,140 in the seasons where I feel like I've been overworked, like, 212 00:12:04,140 --> 00:12:07,300 there was one season where my sweet husband, when he got stuck 213 00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:10,580 in Brazil for a period of time, I kind of took over his job 214 00:12:10,580 --> 00:12:13,540 and let go of some other aspects of my job. But there was 215 00:12:13,540 --> 00:12:17,780 like, there was like a series of two weeks where it was heavy, 216 00:12:17,780 --> 00:12:21,060 heavy, heavy. We had a fasting or. No, it was a post retreat and 217 00:12:21,060 --> 00:12:25,260 we were moving into our new admin building and great times. It 218 00:12:25,260 --> 00:12:29,940 was great because I love, like, those high, like, high, you 219 00:12:29,940 --> 00:12:33,660 know, pace a lot of tasks to accomplish. Like, I get a serotonin 220 00:12:33,660 --> 00:12:35,580 kick every time I check something off my to do list. Like, 221 00:12:35,660 --> 00:12:39,420 I loved it, but at the end of the day, I'd be like, dang, I don't 222 00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:42,580 have anything left. And then I remember one of my bosses calling 223 00:12:42,580 --> 00:12:44,580 me out on it, and he was like, I think you're reaching a level of 224 00:12:44,580 --> 00:12:48,100 unhealth. And so I want you to be sure to know your limits. Like, 225 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:51,660 you are not superwoman. Like, and that's okay. Like, and so that 226 00:12:51,660 --> 00:12:55,860 was like an encouraging word for me because I was just. I wasn't 227 00:12:55,860 --> 00:12:58,580 looking to do any of those things for any sense of acclaim. 228 00:12:58,740 --> 00:13:01,820 I just wanted to do it because I. It was my job. Like, I felt like 229 00:13:01,820 --> 00:13:04,980 a responsibility and ownership to do all those things, but, like, 230 00:13:05,060 --> 00:13:09,540 feeling seen by my pastor slash supervisor and also, like, 231 00:13:09,940 --> 00:13:14,420 being able to humble myself to be like, oh, I am working in an unhealthy 232 00:13:14,420 --> 00:13:17,700 way, you know, Like, I don't know, was sobering for me. 233 00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:19,940 It was also a terrible season because you weren't married to your 234 00:13:19,940 --> 00:13:25,080 husband at the time. Golly. And he was out of the country. It 235 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,680 was such a dark age, really. Carlos, we love you. 236 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:29,600 Yeah, we love you. 237 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:29,960 Yes. 238 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:30,160 Yes. 239 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:30,480 Yes. 240 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,840 No, I was gonna say, I love that quote that you said. 241 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:34,240 Yeah. 242 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,800 Because there's there for me that, like, that quote is literally 243 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,840 for me, my experience with burnout. So this was Covid time. 244 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,480 I was part time student pastor, and ministry period was just 245 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,770 hard engaging with students through the Internet. But that was 246 00:13:50,770 --> 00:13:55,010 also the season where the Lord welled up in me, like, just a desire 247 00:13:55,010 --> 00:13:58,250 to reach people digitally. So I started streaming video games and 248 00:13:58,730 --> 00:14:03,330 really started to make a small, good, decent amount from it 249 00:14:03,330 --> 00:14:07,530 and wanted to really pursue it. So I was just, after two things 250 00:14:07,770 --> 00:14:12,650 Wanting to see this ministry grow and also wanting to reach people 251 00:14:12,650 --> 00:14:17,470 digitally. But then it came to a point where, like, I was working 252 00:14:17,950 --> 00:14:21,710 crazy amount of hours doing online because I was passionate about 253 00:14:21,710 --> 00:14:25,550 both. And it came to a point where I couldn't do both healthily. 254 00:14:25,870 --> 00:14:28,950 And it led me to a place, like, I remember, like, Fairy can 255 00:14:28,950 --> 00:14:31,550 tell you about that. I was just crying all the time, like, and 256 00:14:31,789 --> 00:14:34,830 it's Covid. Nobody sees you. You're just crying, you know, like, 257 00:14:34,830 --> 00:14:36,590 yeah, yeah. You're just. 258 00:14:37,310 --> 00:14:37,950 Amen. 259 00:14:38,910 --> 00:14:42,920 But it was. It was a rough season. But I love what you said. 260 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,160 It was like, what was the same part of. 261 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,480 It's like, maybe it's the beginning of a healthier, more honest. 262 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,120 One more honest season. 263 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,400 And when I. When I took a break from it, the very next thing 264 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,639 that I come back to is an online ministry, Literally online 265 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,600 pastor at Fielder Church. And it was such a healthy season for 266 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:00,720 me. 267 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,280 I think there's nothing more vulnerable than be able to, like, 268 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,960 be able to be honest about your limitations and your brokenness. 269 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,760 And so it's like, whenever we're able to own up to, like, I 270 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,320 do have limitations. Wow. Like, that is, like, there's so much 271 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,480 growth, and that's such fertile ground for the Lord to work 272 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,640 in your life and for you to see a strength that surpasses, like, 273 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,519 anything that you could formulate or produce. And so I agree 274 00:15:26,519 --> 00:15:29,240 with you. I think there is, like, something super God honoring 275 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,680 in being able to admit, like, I can't do this well. 276 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,000 And the opposite is also true for the enemy. 277 00:15:36,180 --> 00:15:36,500 Yeah. 278 00:15:36,660 --> 00:15:39,780 So if you are not humble enough to say, I have my limitations, 279 00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:44,260 then what takes that place is pride. And pride is going to be the 280 00:15:44,260 --> 00:15:48,620 fertile ground for Satan to come in and bring you to places of 281 00:15:48,620 --> 00:15:49,220 unhealth. 282 00:15:49,380 --> 00:15:49,860 Yeah. 283 00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:54,820 Yeah. And I think, like, even in your story, like, having a structure 284 00:15:54,820 --> 00:15:58,820 in place where it's like, this is my tendency right now as a person 285 00:15:58,980 --> 00:16:02,420 of unhealth, and then having someone come behind you and say, 286 00:16:02,580 --> 00:16:08,230 that's not healthy. Not everyone has that same opportunity 287 00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:11,070 when it's like, oh, I'm working from a place of unhealth. 288 00:16:11,070 --> 00:16:15,990 And the place that I'm at is also operating at a pace of unhealth 289 00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:18,750 that just kind of, like, continues to draw that out. And it's 290 00:16:18,750 --> 00:16:24,310 like, I think more so than, like, outright sin, moral failure, 291 00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:26,790 and those are things that burnout can lead to. But it's like, 292 00:16:26,790 --> 00:16:31,120 this is a place where the enemy can work so hard in pride. 293 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:31,680 Yeah. 294 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,280 To just take people out of ministry, and that's like, What I, 295 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,280 what I told my, the lead pastor and the executive pastor at 296 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,240 the time, I was like, I want to be in ministry long term, and 297 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,440 if I keep working here, I won't want to. And they both are 298 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:46,400 just kind of were like. 299 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,960 But that's like a teachable moment for them too, you know, like 300 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,360 what I'm saying? Like, it's like, I don't know. Hopefully they 301 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:53,440 took something from that. 302 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,280 Yeah. And we, we have to trust that the Lord is doing a work in 303 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,760 them as well, because none of us are perfect. Doesn't matter what 304 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,440 level of leadership you have within a church. 305 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:00,870 Yeah. 306 00:17:01,180 --> 00:17:05,820 And it's important for every single human being to be teachable. 307 00:17:05,980 --> 00:17:10,420 And so I think that's true. But wanted to mention something you 308 00:17:10,420 --> 00:17:13,340 said that sin, and there's certain blatant sin that can come 309 00:17:13,340 --> 00:17:17,540 from burnout, but I think that burnout is extremely dangerous because 310 00:17:17,540 --> 00:17:20,540 it's the one that you can rationalize the most. Well, I'm doing 311 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:24,540 good for the kingdom. I'm doing good for others. I'm doing 312 00:17:24,540 --> 00:17:27,660 good for the organization. I'm honoring God because I'm working 313 00:17:27,740 --> 00:17:30,510 hard. And these are all things that I heard you were, the things 314 00:17:30,510 --> 00:17:33,510 that you were saying to yourself and even user as well as 315 00:17:33,510 --> 00:17:36,270 you were sharing your story, talking about, like, okay, these 316 00:17:36,270 --> 00:17:38,950 are all good things. And even you, Becky, talking about how this 317 00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:42,830 was a place of joy you were finding in accomplishing all these 318 00:17:42,830 --> 00:17:47,630 tasks. And this is why you have to be so rooted in your relationship 319 00:17:47,630 --> 00:17:50,390 with Christ so that you can hear the voices. Like, for you, it 320 00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:54,190 was the pastor, and for you, I think it was the spirit. And for 321 00:17:54,190 --> 00:17:56,950 you, maybe your wife in all these areas, like people around you 322 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,480 care for you, know you, love you, and are also God honoring people 323 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,600 that want to, that want to follow what God's doing. And so they, 324 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:05,400 they help you out. 325 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:11,080 And I, I think too, I think your. What your spiritual life, your 326 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,000 spiritual life was already suffering to like whenever you got 327 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,000 to burnout or it's suffering because of your burnout, you know, 328 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,040 like, I feel like those are like kind of hand in hand. Well, 329 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,040 there was one season semi recently where I was kind of like 330 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,120 again on the precipice of burnout. I was like, I could feel 331 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:31,190 myself like, oh my God, I'm my God and it's right there. And I. 332 00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:34,630 My spiritual, my quiet time was like basically non existent. 333 00:18:34,630 --> 00:18:39,270 And I was just like kind of going on yesterday's wisdom for today. 334 00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:43,950 And so. And that's just not a good way to live your daily life. 335 00:18:43,950 --> 00:18:46,270 You know, give Give me this day my daily bread, you know, kind 336 00:18:46,270 --> 00:18:51,270 of thing. And I remember I just kept telling my husband, I was 337 00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:53,670 like, I just don't have anything left. Like I just don't 338 00:18:53,670 --> 00:18:57,610 feel like I have anything left. And he prayed for me that night. 339 00:18:57,610 --> 00:19:00,170 And then I just felt like I could sleep for like two years. Like 340 00:19:00,170 --> 00:19:04,130 I literally felt like I could sleep for that long. And I woke up 341 00:19:04,130 --> 00:19:08,810 like at 3am like bright eyed, wide awake. Like that Katy Perry 342 00:19:08,810 --> 00:19:11,490 song, I'm wide awake. Like I literally. I can't sing it. 343 00:19:12,210 --> 00:19:14,210 You're into quoting some very interesting. 344 00:19:14,290 --> 00:19:17,090 Sing it. Even though I really want to, I just can't do it. I can't 345 00:19:17,090 --> 00:19:19,370 bring myself, dude. But anyways, so like I'm just wide awake. 346 00:19:19,370 --> 00:19:23,390 And so I like literally woke up and I went to go do my quiet time 347 00:19:23,390 --> 00:19:26,070 and I was there for like a long time. And then by the end I 348 00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:29,310 was expecting, okay, I'm gonna be dead by the end of the day. Because 349 00:19:29,310 --> 00:19:33,430 I woke up so early and I was, you know, bright eyed and bushy tailed 350 00:19:33,430 --> 00:19:35,710 by the end of the day. Like I was like, by, you know, I went to 351 00:19:35,710 --> 00:19:39,830 bed at 9pm and felt like I had slept so much. And same thing happened 352 00:19:39,830 --> 00:19:42,670 the next day where I woke up again at 2am and like had another 353 00:19:42,670 --> 00:19:45,030 great time with the Lord and then made it all the way until the 354 00:19:45,030 --> 00:19:48,620 end of the day without falling asleep. And I think what the Lord 355 00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:51,460 was speaking over me in that season is like there is no physical 356 00:19:51,460 --> 00:19:54,620 rest that you can receive that will outweigh and out measure the 357 00:19:54,620 --> 00:19:58,220 spiritual rest only I can give you. And like that was just so powerful 358 00:19:58,220 --> 00:20:01,140 to me because I was like, I was working out of my own resources, 359 00:20:01,220 --> 00:20:05,100 relying on my physical body and on my mind and on whatever I 360 00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:07,980 could produce. But the Lord isn't more proud of me because I 361 00:20:07,980 --> 00:20:11,300 can do more things. You know what I'm saying? And so that season 362 00:20:11,380 --> 00:20:14,420 was just so impactful to me. And the Lord has done it a couple 363 00:20:14,420 --> 00:20:17,130 handful of times since then. But I remember the first time it 364 00:20:17,130 --> 00:20:21,370 was just so impactful. Like there's a spiritual rest that burnout 365 00:20:21,610 --> 00:20:25,210 does not give you. Yeah, it cancels it out if anything. 366 00:20:25,530 --> 00:20:28,250 Yeah. And it's interesting because I'm hearing you saying that 367 00:20:28,250 --> 00:20:31,090 you'd get to the corner or to the edge of burnout and like the 368 00:20:31,090 --> 00:20:36,610 Lord kind of helps you identify that, whereas for pushes 369 00:20:36,610 --> 00:20:39,530 you over away from here. 370 00:20:39,530 --> 00:20:40,010 Yes. 371 00:20:40,810 --> 00:20:45,150 And you guys talk about, hey, I arrived there at the burnout. How 372 00:20:45,150 --> 00:20:48,910 would you tell our viewers or our listeners to identify that? Because 373 00:20:49,070 --> 00:20:52,470 there's a sense of, like, where is it that I should be most 374 00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:56,030 alarmed? Or how do I know that I've gotten there? We talked a little 375 00:20:56,030 --> 00:20:58,310 bit about definition of burnout, but how would you, based 376 00:20:58,310 --> 00:21:01,110 on Yalls experience, say, okay, this is how I can identify 377 00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:03,270 that I'm on the edge of it. And this is how I can identify that 378 00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:03,870 I've arrived? 379 00:21:04,590 --> 00:21:04,950 Yeah. 380 00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:09,830 I think my first thought is, we want to kind of spiritualize it. 381 00:21:09,830 --> 00:21:12,640 We're like, well, I want God to tell me that I'm, like, operating 382 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,880 from a place of unhealth. And he. He very well could. I think he 383 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,480 has given us. We are embodied creatures that he has given us bodies 384 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,400 that we need to, like, pay attention to the cues. Like, if it's 385 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,720 like, oh, I'm still getting eight or nine hours of sleep and 386 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:32,120 I feel absolutely exhausted, that might be a good cue that there's 387 00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:35,520 something out of balance. Like, how do you find those, what 388 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,850 we would call natural or earthly things that are like, oh, 389 00:21:38,850 --> 00:21:41,850 yeah, I need to pay attention to these cues that I normally wouldn't 390 00:21:41,850 --> 00:21:45,090 be tuned into because those were the things I ignored. I was 391 00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:49,050 like, well, I'm physically tired, but we have a mission to accomplish. 392 00:21:49,050 --> 00:21:53,570 We have these things to do. So that's. I. I think for me, that's 393 00:21:53,570 --> 00:21:56,730 like, number one is like, how do I pay attention? Yes. How do I 394 00:21:56,730 --> 00:22:01,530 pay attention to what limits my body is trying to cue me in on? 395 00:22:02,570 --> 00:22:04,010 Which is what you were talking about earlier. 396 00:22:04,430 --> 00:22:09,390 Yeah, Yeah. I would say, honestly, listen to my spouse, like, 397 00:22:09,390 --> 00:22:13,950 she was already speaking. Hey, you, first of all, you work a lot. 398 00:22:14,270 --> 00:22:19,390 Hey, you're doing this a lot. Hey, you. You act a certain way when 399 00:22:19,390 --> 00:22:22,430 you come home or when you're done off the computer. Like, it also 400 00:22:22,430 --> 00:22:24,590 didn't help that what I was trying to do is preach the gospel 401 00:22:24,590 --> 00:22:26,910 playing video games. And you play video games a lot. It's not 402 00:22:26,910 --> 00:22:30,190 good for your brain, you know, like, so she's telling me, it's like, 403 00:22:30,930 --> 00:22:34,450 hey, you're not acting right. You know, like, I could have heeded 404 00:22:35,650 --> 00:22:38,210 wisdom, but I said, no, I can do this. 405 00:22:38,290 --> 00:22:39,410 Yeah. Yeah. 406 00:22:39,970 --> 00:22:44,810 So physical ways to identify it, but also the community around 407 00:22:44,810 --> 00:22:49,090 you, obviously your. Your wife is like the suitable partner. Right. 408 00:22:49,090 --> 00:22:51,690 Who God gave you, and so you got to listen to that. But for those 409 00:22:51,690 --> 00:22:54,970 that maybe aren't married, community around you, circling yourself 410 00:22:54,970 --> 00:22:57,140 around the right community will help bring you to that place 411 00:22:57,140 --> 00:22:57,500 of health. 412 00:22:57,580 --> 00:23:01,540 When I think spiritually, it's. It was the difference for me 413 00:23:01,540 --> 00:23:05,700 between I am. I am taking spiritual time to prepare for something. 414 00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:09,700 This Is, like, more specific to ministry. I am taking this time 415 00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:12,620 to prepare for something. I'm prepping for the next worship set, 416 00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:15,460 the next meeting that I'm going into, versus, like, I am seeking 417 00:23:15,460 --> 00:23:19,980 God just for the sake of seeking God. So it's like. Like, 418 00:23:20,220 --> 00:23:24,360 I don't. I cannot remember really. Like, a prolonged stretch 419 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:28,640 of time. And probably those, like, maybe 2017 to 2020, where it 420 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,200 was like, oh, I'm just seeking God to seek God. It was always like, 421 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,440 well, we have two services on Wednesday. We got another service 422 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:40,160 on Sunday. Like, how do we get to get to a place where. Yeah. I 423 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,600 was never operating from an overflow. It was always, I'm pouring 424 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,000 in my cup just to pour right back out. 425 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:49,530 Yeah. Is it possible that your yes to others or to other things 426 00:23:49,770 --> 00:23:51,770 has become a silent no to God? 427 00:23:52,970 --> 00:23:53,610 A thousand. 428 00:23:54,650 --> 00:23:55,290 Absolutely. 429 00:23:55,290 --> 00:23:59,170 Because I think about. Marty mentioned this, like, Martha. Martha 430 00:23:59,170 --> 00:24:03,410 versus Mary in Luke 10 of, like, she was preoccupied with a 431 00:24:03,410 --> 00:24:06,810 lot of really, you know, good things. Like, it wasn't bad what 432 00:24:06,810 --> 00:24:10,610 she was doing. You know, like, go back and read Luke 10 about the 433 00:24:10,610 --> 00:24:12,730 two sisters. And one of them was, like, doing all these things 434 00:24:12,730 --> 00:24:15,210 and preparing all these things. And Mary was just sitting 435 00:24:15,210 --> 00:24:19,570 at the feet of Jesus and. And Jesus commended what Mary was doing. 436 00:24:19,650 --> 00:24:23,090 Seemingly pointless. Like, you know what? Like, she's, like, she's 437 00:24:23,090 --> 00:24:25,370 just sitting there. She's doing nothing. You know, like, how 438 00:24:25,370 --> 00:24:29,370 from a productive mindset, like, how is that commendable compared 439 00:24:29,370 --> 00:24:33,010 to what Martha over here is doing? But I think, again, like, 440 00:24:33,010 --> 00:24:35,970 Jesus went back to the core thing of, like, what she is doing. 441 00:24:36,290 --> 00:24:38,690 Like, she is sitting at my feet again, like, kind of what you 442 00:24:38,690 --> 00:24:41,770 said about, like, seeking Jesus for the sake of seeking Jesus, 443 00:24:41,770 --> 00:24:45,030 not getting, like, I don't want to. My only times that I go 444 00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:47,390 to the Lord is whenever I'm like, I'm about to do this thing. 445 00:24:47,550 --> 00:24:50,310 Let me come get, like, my. My Gatorade, my spiritual Gatorade, 446 00:24:50,310 --> 00:24:52,990 so I can go do what I need to do. Like, it's like, no, like, I. 447 00:24:53,230 --> 00:24:55,750 Again, you want to spend time with those that you love. And I want 448 00:24:55,750 --> 00:24:58,190 my love for Jesus to be evident in my pursuit of him. 449 00:24:58,190 --> 00:25:02,790 And you quoted this earlier. You were talking about, give us this 450 00:25:02,790 --> 00:25:06,150 day our daily bread. And you think of bread, you think of sustenance, 451 00:25:06,150 --> 00:25:11,150 you think of something that will keep you going. It gives you 452 00:25:11,150 --> 00:25:14,430 life and all these things. The daily bread is your time with Jesus. 453 00:25:14,910 --> 00:25:19,710 It's not. It's not the amount of the word of God that you get to 454 00:25:19,710 --> 00:25:22,830 be able to do something that you need to do. And I know that we 455 00:25:22,830 --> 00:25:25,510 have people listening to this and watching this that could either 456 00:25:25,510 --> 00:25:28,750 be on either side, like in ministry and pursuing things, or 457 00:25:28,750 --> 00:25:31,790 serving your church really well, which if you're not, you need 458 00:25:31,790 --> 00:25:34,830 to be doing that because it matters. But for those of you that 459 00:25:34,830 --> 00:25:38,890 maybe just having quite entered into spiritual leadership 460 00:25:38,890 --> 00:25:40,970 of others, this is so important for you to know before 461 00:25:40,970 --> 00:25:45,050 you even do that, because you can spiritually lead others towards 462 00:25:45,370 --> 00:25:48,690 the spiritual bread that comes from the word of God. If you're not 463 00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:53,370 doing it yourself and you want to talk about how to prevent burnout, 464 00:25:54,090 --> 00:25:59,290 you ensure that you have a deep quality time with Jesus. 465 00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:05,360 And I saw this thing talking about encouragement for the burnt 466 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:09,120 out soul. And there was four things that it said that I wanted 467 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:12,360 to read. God is not more proud of you whenever you're performing. 468 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,240 You are not more loved when you're doing more. Your rest is just 469 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,040 as holy as your work. And there's no shame in stepping back 470 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,200 to breathe. And that was like, again, it kind of goes back to the 471 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,090 whole concept of rest and Sabbath is an act of worship. And 472 00:26:30,090 --> 00:26:33,650 I think we, I think particularly like in Western culture, 473 00:26:33,650 --> 00:26:38,450 like, we just, we are so independent and very, like productivity, 474 00:26:38,450 --> 00:26:42,850 like very efficient that we tend to kind of treat our spiritual 475 00:26:42,850 --> 00:26:45,729 life in the same way when that's not how it's supposed to go. 476 00:26:46,050 --> 00:26:51,410 And so I think it, it just, it's just some. It's a slippery slope. 477 00:26:51,410 --> 00:26:53,970 And I think that's when accountability is such a big piece. 478 00:26:54,690 --> 00:26:57,810 Like, there's times where, like, I'll skip my quiet time and 479 00:26:57,810 --> 00:27:01,630 my husband will literally come by and bring me my Bible and my journal 480 00:27:01,790 --> 00:27:04,430 and like, put it right in front of me and then take my phone 481 00:27:04,430 --> 00:27:07,030 from me, like. And so it's like there's an accountability piece 482 00:27:07,030 --> 00:27:11,270 there that I think we all should have. If it's not your spouse 483 00:27:11,270 --> 00:27:14,510 and it's like your best friend or your pastor or, you know, your 484 00:27:14,510 --> 00:27:19,630 parents or whoever it is in your area that they just have that 485 00:27:19,790 --> 00:27:23,630 act that you've allowed people that access into your life to be 486 00:27:23,630 --> 00:27:25,350 able to speak sanctification over you. 487 00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:28,190 And you said it perfectly. You allowed people to enter in. You have 488 00:27:28,190 --> 00:27:31,890 to choose accountability for you to grow because you have to want 489 00:27:31,890 --> 00:27:34,970 it for it to be the most effective for you. But that's what 490 00:27:35,530 --> 00:27:37,410 we were designed for. We were designed for community. And that 491 00:27:37,410 --> 00:27:39,610 community is meant to help us grow in our faith. 492 00:27:39,770 --> 00:27:44,570 I agree. How does people pleasing or fear of disappointing 493 00:27:44,570 --> 00:27:46,650 others play a role, if any? 494 00:27:46,730 --> 00:27:48,970 I can't say because I don't Want anybody to get upset at me, 495 00:27:50,490 --> 00:27:51,130 whatever. 496 00:27:53,290 --> 00:27:54,330 That's crazy. 497 00:27:55,690 --> 00:27:59,450 There's some lore there. We'll put you guys in later. Goodness. 498 00:28:00,710 --> 00:28:04,190 Well, I mean, it's. I think it's the root of the lie that you 499 00:28:04,190 --> 00:28:06,550 tell yourself to kind of keep going forward. Well, I need to please 500 00:28:06,550 --> 00:28:10,350 somebody. My value is in what other people think of me, and my 501 00:28:10,350 --> 00:28:14,030 value is in what I can produce, and my value is in how well 502 00:28:14,030 --> 00:28:19,990 I do in this. And so as. As a prototypical people pleaser here, 503 00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:21,750 that's what I am. 504 00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:23,590 I do not. 505 00:28:23,910 --> 00:28:28,780 Whatever. It's. It's an area where I've had to grow in because 506 00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:32,100 I've had to learn to say no. And as a people pleaser, I like to 507 00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:35,180 say yes. I don't like people to ask me something and me say that 508 00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:41,460 I can't do it. And so to have to grow in that is a lot of trusting 509 00:28:41,460 --> 00:28:46,500 in God. Because even if I don't please the person, but I please 510 00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:51,500 God, then I have done well, right? And if pleasing God is being 511 00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:54,260 healthy in my personal relationship with him, and out of 512 00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:57,800 that personal relationship with Him I get to bless others, then 513 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,720 I am well and I am good, and I'm doing what is honoring to God. 514 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,840 But the more I seek to please others, the more selfish I become. 515 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,280 Because I want to do it for my reasons, for your glory. For my glory, 516 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,240 and to bring honor to my own name. 517 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,520 Yeah, no, I agree. And if you're saying yes to everything, 518 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,440 you're saying no to everything at the same time. Like, I am a firm 519 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,660 believer that you cannot overstretch yourself because you're 520 00:29:26,660 --> 00:29:29,940 gonna. You're like, you can't give 100% to everything. And so, 521 00:29:29,940 --> 00:29:32,100 like, this thing that's super important over here is gonna get, 522 00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:34,780 like, 25% of you. And this other super important thing is gonna 523 00:29:34,780 --> 00:29:38,860 get 15%. Whenever the Lord, like, might be asking you to do these. 524 00:29:38,940 --> 00:29:43,100 This. These two or one things at 100% capacity, but because you're 525 00:29:43,180 --> 00:29:45,780 saying yes and over committing to all these things, you're invested 526 00:29:45,780 --> 00:29:49,620 in nothing at the same time. And so, like, I'm. I, like, I think, 527 00:29:49,620 --> 00:29:52,790 again, like, that takes a lot of discernment and a lot of prayer 528 00:29:52,790 --> 00:29:56,670 of, like, I don't need to be in two or three community groups 529 00:29:56,670 --> 00:29:59,830 to make my name known. I can just invest in this one community 530 00:30:00,710 --> 00:30:04,270 to, like, really be present and. And be poured into and invested 531 00:30:04,270 --> 00:30:08,430 into. I don't need to, like, have all of these, like, all these 532 00:30:08,430 --> 00:30:11,150 relationships with all these people. When the Lord has given these 533 00:30:11,150 --> 00:30:14,070 five people in My hands that he's given me favor with. You know 534 00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:17,110 what I'm saying? And so, like, I. I just think it takes discernment. 535 00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:21,350 And just like, again, like, I think you need to be okay with disappointing 536 00:30:21,350 --> 00:30:25,750 others because that's just gonna happen regardless because you. 537 00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:28,110 Sometimes you might say yes to something and then you end up disappointing 538 00:30:28,110 --> 00:30:31,190 them anyway because your, your heart wasn't really in it, you know? 539 00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:33,670 Yeah. Like, so it's like, it's a lose, lose situation either way. 540 00:30:33,670 --> 00:30:36,430 Well, I think you're keying into something where it's like, when 541 00:30:36,430 --> 00:30:39,470 we talk about burnout, oftentimes we talk about workplace, 542 00:30:39,470 --> 00:30:45,450 like, what am I doing with my 9 to 5 or whatever. But you're highlighting, 543 00:30:45,450 --> 00:30:49,570 like, you can be burnout in a host of different areas in your life. 544 00:30:49,570 --> 00:30:54,530 Like, if it is, oh, I have to hit these certain benchmarks in my 545 00:30:54,530 --> 00:30:57,930 spiritual life. Like, that can be a place of burnout. If it's like 546 00:30:57,930 --> 00:31:00,250 coming from a place of selfishness. I have to do this with, 547 00:31:00,570 --> 00:31:05,850 with family or with friends or with, I don't know, communal engagement 548 00:31:05,850 --> 00:31:08,930 or something. Like, there, there are a ton of different ways 549 00:31:08,930 --> 00:31:12,530 where burnout can, like, manifest not just in our working 550 00:31:12,530 --> 00:31:15,930 lives. That's what we see most often because that's where we spend 551 00:31:15,930 --> 00:31:20,250 a lot of our time. But I think, yeah, it's interesting to 552 00:31:20,250 --> 00:31:21,570 highlight and note there too. 553 00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:25,130 You reacted earlier when the people pleasing thing, and I kind 554 00:31:25,130 --> 00:31:27,450 of spoke to it, but do you have any people pleasing tendencies? 555 00:31:27,450 --> 00:31:28,770 And if so, what do you do with them? 556 00:31:30,050 --> 00:31:37,810 What do you want my answer to be? No, I definitely have people 557 00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:42,900 pleasing tendency. And it's. So much of it is born out of perception. 558 00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:45,620 Like, I want to be perceived as a certain kind of person. Like, 559 00:31:45,620 --> 00:31:51,020 I'm reliable, I'm trustworthy, I can get the job done. Which is 560 00:31:51,020 --> 00:31:54,420 what led like, personally to so much of my burnout before was 561 00:31:54,820 --> 00:31:59,380 I was trying to achieve an identity when the Lord was like, 562 00:31:59,380 --> 00:32:02,620 I've already given you one. You're a son of God. Like, you just 563 00:32:02,620 --> 00:32:06,660 have to receive it, preach it, brother. And for me, that was like, 564 00:32:06,970 --> 00:32:09,930 I don't think that really hit me probably until about a year ago 565 00:32:10,090 --> 00:32:12,930 when I was like, so like, even in the midst of, like, working through 566 00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:16,850 burnout, going through counseling. Yeah, it wasn't something 567 00:32:16,850 --> 00:32:21,610 that, like, I didn't realize how much of my identity was tied 568 00:32:21,610 --> 00:32:25,850 up in what people thought of me. And now it's like, oh, I feel 569 00:32:25,850 --> 00:32:29,770 so much more freedom when it's based on this is who God has made 570 00:32:29,770 --> 00:32:33,010 me to be, but who God has Called me as a result of what Jesus 571 00:32:33,010 --> 00:32:36,100 has done for me. It's like, yeah, it's totally different. 572 00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:39,980 I'm just. I'm laughing because it was about a year ago that he stopped 573 00:32:39,980 --> 00:32:43,220 working with me, started working on a separate team. So obviously 574 00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:46,340 he needed to move to understand what healthy identity 575 00:32:46,340 --> 00:32:48,340 was. I'm sorry for reading your. 576 00:32:50,420 --> 00:32:50,900 Dang. 577 00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:52,260 This work is real people. 578 00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:56,900 For background. Tony was the one who brought me back into ministry, 579 00:32:57,620 --> 00:33:00,020 and I worked with. I worked with him for what, two years? 580 00:33:00,020 --> 00:33:00,540 Yeah, two years. 581 00:33:00,540 --> 00:33:03,220 That's great. This is great. No, people pleasing was not attached 582 00:33:03,220 --> 00:33:06,620 to this man. I promise. So it was just. 583 00:33:06,780 --> 00:33:07,660 That was so scared. 584 00:33:07,660 --> 00:33:09,100 There was fortuitous timing. 585 00:33:09,100 --> 00:33:12,700 Yes. It was a coincidence. There were spiritual things happening 586 00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:13,900 on. 587 00:33:14,060 --> 00:33:14,940 In the backside. 588 00:33:15,580 --> 00:33:16,620 That's crazy. 589 00:33:17,820 --> 00:33:20,340 Well, that's a way to call me out, Becky. I'm over here trying 590 00:33:20,340 --> 00:33:21,179 to have my own moment. 591 00:33:21,179 --> 00:33:24,300 You were like. It was like you were trying to stifle us. 592 00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:29,860 I was trying to stifle it. I wasn't aware. I'm glad. For candid 593 00:33:29,860 --> 00:33:30,780 conversations, he. 594 00:33:31,470 --> 00:33:35,070 Wow, you said something like, the language you're using, it just 595 00:33:35,070 --> 00:33:41,630 reminds so very similarly the language of, like, freedom, identity, 596 00:33:43,070 --> 00:33:46,949 one thing like big shout out to Pastor Larry Dan, who was walking 597 00:33:46,949 --> 00:33:49,670 with a few of guys. We're going through this curriculum called 598 00:33:49,670 --> 00:33:53,310 Steps to Freedom. And it was literally that revelation that really 599 00:33:53,630 --> 00:33:58,090 showed me that I am a people pleaser or, like, seeking approval. 600 00:33:59,210 --> 00:34:03,890 But it was crazy because it oftentimes it's not just a lie that 601 00:34:03,890 --> 00:34:06,490 we tell ourselves. It's actually what's been spoken to us. 602 00:34:06,570 --> 00:34:10,970 And so we went through this exercise of, like, praying and just 603 00:34:10,970 --> 00:34:14,290 asking the spirit of God, God, can you show me? Like, when did this 604 00:34:14,290 --> 00:34:17,490 lie begin? And, like, not to out anybody, but it was just like 605 00:34:17,490 --> 00:34:20,370 over and over, just constantly just waiting on the Lord. And he 606 00:34:20,370 --> 00:34:21,850 brought me back to a specific moment. 607 00:34:22,740 --> 00:34:24,020 Where was it with me? 608 00:34:24,180 --> 00:34:31,380 No, this specific moment when I was in Tony's office. This is like, 609 00:34:31,460 --> 00:34:35,140 little kid, little kid. But just like, spoken over me of like, 610 00:34:35,380 --> 00:34:42,620 your, like, your parents only approve of you because of the work 611 00:34:42,620 --> 00:34:46,700 that you do. And so it made me strive and strive and strive to try 612 00:34:46,700 --> 00:34:49,220 to gain their approval. And then I took that in all these different 613 00:34:49,220 --> 00:34:51,849 relationships. And I ultimately took it to God where it's 614 00:34:51,849 --> 00:34:55,969 like, God, I'm just. Rather than working from a place of approval, 615 00:34:55,969 --> 00:34:58,169 I was trying to seek God's approval. And then I took it in every 616 00:34:58,169 --> 00:34:58,929 other relationship. 617 00:34:59,409 --> 00:35:02,849 Understanding that is so important when you work, you got 618 00:35:02,849 --> 00:35:05,888 to see work as worship. Any line of work that you do. Has to 619 00:35:05,888 --> 00:35:10,409 be your act of worship to God. And when you work as an outflow of 620 00:35:10,409 --> 00:35:14,129 how you've been approved by God, that is huge, brother. That's 621 00:35:14,129 --> 00:35:16,289 absolutely, it's freeing. I agree with you 100%. 622 00:35:16,860 --> 00:35:19,740 I think it's freeing because there's a security in who you have, 623 00:35:19,820 --> 00:35:22,740 like, in what your identity is. And so like you mentioned this 624 00:35:22,740 --> 00:35:27,660 in the parents episode that we did last time of like speaking over 625 00:35:28,140 --> 00:35:33,180 your sons, like, knowing that they are like my sons, like, I love 626 00:35:33,180 --> 00:35:36,260 you because you are my son. And so just even having that mindset 627 00:35:36,260 --> 00:35:39,940 as children of God that like we are his children, he loves us. 628 00:35:39,940 --> 00:35:44,860 And so there is like a, there is a insecurity that we like to cling 629 00:35:44,860 --> 00:35:48,620 to as an effort to try and earn our value in the kingdom. And 630 00:35:48,620 --> 00:35:51,260 that's not where the Lord wants us. Like he wants us to have 631 00:35:51,260 --> 00:35:54,580 the security of our, of who we are as children of Christ, that he 632 00:35:54,580 --> 00:35:57,620 has prepared us to walk in these works, you know, and he has 633 00:35:57,620 --> 00:36:00,140 decided to like the founder and perfecter of our faith. He'll 634 00:36:00,140 --> 00:36:02,580 go before us in the work, he'll be behind us in the work, you 635 00:36:02,580 --> 00:36:07,420 know, and he'll be with us in the work. So you have some pretty, 636 00:36:08,130 --> 00:36:11,570 like you're very passionate about these like, specific barriers 637 00:36:11,570 --> 00:36:15,850 and boundaries that you have. What are some of those that you would 638 00:36:15,850 --> 00:36:16,610 like to share with us? 639 00:36:17,010 --> 00:36:20,370 Yeah, I think that it's important for every single believer 640 00:36:20,370 --> 00:36:25,090 in Jesus to have regular rhythms in life and that can help 641 00:36:25,250 --> 00:36:29,210 you gain some health and can help prevent some burnout. And so 642 00:36:29,210 --> 00:36:31,810 I've seen a lot of burnout around me and I think that that's 643 00:36:32,130 --> 00:36:35,170 kind of, honestly, a little bit of the people pleaser in me has 644 00:36:35,170 --> 00:36:38,340 wanted to like, why can't do that? I don't want to get to where 645 00:36:38,340 --> 00:36:43,220 that person got to. And as a result, in a weird way, God chose 646 00:36:43,220 --> 00:36:47,740 to redeem that and bring me to a place of specific practices that 647 00:36:47,740 --> 00:36:51,260 I use towards health that even helped me gauge when I'm arriving 648 00:36:51,260 --> 00:36:54,540 to places like you're talking about where I'm like, there's something 649 00:36:54,540 --> 00:36:59,580 alarming here that's happening and I need to deal with it. So Sabbath, 650 00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:06,260 I think that's one of the first low entry but areas of health 651 00:37:06,260 --> 00:37:09,940 that you could really establish and grow in. And if you, 652 00:37:09,940 --> 00:37:14,900 if you just focus on that for a season, that will bring a lot of 653 00:37:14,900 --> 00:37:19,500 health and stability to your spiritual life. But the, the basic 654 00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:23,700 idea of Sabbath is where you take a 24 hour period and you choose 655 00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:27,460 to leave behind work and rest in the good work that Jesus has already 656 00:37:27,460 --> 00:37:32,190 done for you. And you seek ways to spiritually engage with God. 657 00:37:32,190 --> 00:37:35,230 So I choose to Sabbath on Sundays, and that's weird. A lot 658 00:37:35,230 --> 00:37:37,670 of people think that it's odd that as a pastor I choose to Sabbath 659 00:37:37,670 --> 00:37:40,310 on Sundays because it could be seen as a workday. And I understand 660 00:37:40,310 --> 00:37:44,830 that as well. But we can have a whole other podcast about Sabbath 661 00:37:45,230 --> 00:37:51,350 alone. But on Sabbath I go and engage with my church community and 662 00:37:51,350 --> 00:37:55,110 I come back home and I engage in some really yummy food with my 663 00:37:55,110 --> 00:37:57,540 family. And then I do activities throughout the day that 664 00:37:57,540 --> 00:38:00,660 help me remember God through my family. And so we engage in family 665 00:38:00,660 --> 00:38:05,140 things that help us connect with God specifically. So try not 666 00:38:05,140 --> 00:38:07,820 to do a lot of shopping or anything like that, but try to focus 667 00:38:07,820 --> 00:38:11,580 on ways that we engage relationally. Another one that I 668 00:38:11,580 --> 00:38:15,700 try to do, as far as like overall health, is have specific 669 00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:21,380 benchmarkers in my year where I am seeking to get away and distance 670 00:38:21,380 --> 00:38:25,540 myself from what is everyday work. And so one of that's going 671 00:38:25,540 --> 00:38:28,140 to be a vacation. So we take a family vacation. Another one's going 672 00:38:28,140 --> 00:38:31,100 to be another getaway with my spouse. With my spouse. 673 00:38:33,820 --> 00:38:36,860 I'm sorry, I tried to let it go. I just couldn't. 674 00:38:36,860 --> 00:38:39,780 Tried to keep moving away from it. I think it's actually maybe the 675 00:38:39,780 --> 00:38:43,060 second time that I, that I mispronounce a word. Thank you for 676 00:38:43,060 --> 00:38:46,540 not calling me out on the first one. No, obviously you, you 677 00:38:46,780 --> 00:38:54,600 heard this one. So anyways, your spouse. Yeah, my spouse. That's 678 00:38:54,600 --> 00:39:00,920 fine. My wife. My wife. So a getaway to my family, getaway with 679 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:07,280 my wife, and then a spiritual getaway. And we are very blessed 680 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,880 to be afforded that as members of the staff of this church. And 681 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:16,160 so we have a couple of those a year. And I'm so grateful for them 682 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,320 because they center me back in my relationship with the Lord. And 683 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,560 so these are general year long practices that I keep myself accountable 684 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,800 to, that I'm doing that. And then on a weekly basis, not just 685 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:33,760 Sabbath, but also the dinners with both, like connecting with my 686 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,600 wife intentionally and then connecting with my kids intentionally, 687 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,520 not just on Sabbath. So, like having. I want it to be more regular 688 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:45,520 that dinners are happening at home than they are not. And the reality 689 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,010 is that that's not true right now as we're recording this podcast. 690 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,800 It's not true. And this is an area of growth for me that I discovered 691 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,160 recently where I am probably spending more evenings away from 692 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,880 the house and away from dinners with my family. Because I 693 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,640 keep on saying, God, why can't I Engage spiritually with my children. 694 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,720 Like, every time I try to engage in this way, it's hard. And 695 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,040 he revealed to me that one of the ways was because I was spending 696 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:12,320 more evenings and dinners away from home than I was at home. And 697 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,600 so hopefully by the time this podcast airs, I'm better at that. 698 00:40:16,270 --> 00:40:18,430 But that's another area of growth that I think is really important 699 00:40:18,750 --> 00:40:21,070 and I feel fairly confirmed. So that one's not from experience. 700 00:40:21,230 --> 00:40:25,550 That one's from something that I heard on. On another media platform, 701 00:40:25,950 --> 00:40:28,910 but the other ones are from an area of experience, and they have 702 00:40:28,910 --> 00:40:34,110 helped me, like, have those. Those balances. Also something tangible 703 00:40:34,110 --> 00:40:36,870 on the week to week is balancing my hours. So making sure 704 00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:40,390 that I cap my hours that I work throughout the week. And that's 705 00:40:40,390 --> 00:40:42,390 another one. That's the closest that I've ever been to burnout 706 00:40:42,390 --> 00:40:45,300 was when my wife started saying, like, hey, you work a lot. 707 00:40:46,260 --> 00:40:49,220 And when I took that to my pastor and my supervisor at the time, 708 00:40:49,380 --> 00:40:52,060 he was like, yeah, we need to work on this. We want to make sure 709 00:40:52,060 --> 00:40:58,660 that you will be chastised for overworking. And. Whereas I don't 710 00:40:58,660 --> 00:41:04,300 think. Yes. And I had to assess why I was overworking because 711 00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:08,340 I felt like my value, my identity was found in that. And so. 712 00:41:08,580 --> 00:41:12,430 Okay, a few quick. Yeah, no rapid fire stuff. 713 00:41:12,430 --> 00:41:16,590 I love that. What are yalls final thoughts as. As we close this 714 00:41:16,590 --> 00:41:19,150 up? Like, any. Like, I have to say this. 715 00:41:19,150 --> 00:41:23,230 I have to say this in addition to Sabbath, I love Sabbath and what 716 00:41:23,230 --> 00:41:26,510 we do for Sabbath to. You already know what I'm going to say. 717 00:41:26,510 --> 00:41:28,670 We play pickleball. That's right. 718 00:41:28,830 --> 00:41:30,270 It's a great Sabbath practice. 719 00:41:30,350 --> 00:41:32,590 The best his baby literally does. 720 00:41:33,230 --> 00:41:33,790 Yeah. 721 00:41:33,790 --> 00:41:36,070 Didn't we talk about pickleball last time I was on the 722 00:41:36,070 --> 00:41:37,780 podcast? That's obviously. 723 00:41:39,140 --> 00:41:39,860 We love it. 724 00:41:40,580 --> 00:41:40,940 Yeah. 725 00:41:40,940 --> 00:41:43,020 Pickleball and Sabbath. Do something with your family. Like, 726 00:41:43,020 --> 00:41:45,540 do something with your community. Like, do something that 727 00:41:45,540 --> 00:41:49,700 recharges you, that you like, that you like. Enjoy. So, yeah, I 728 00:41:49,700 --> 00:41:49,940 agree. 729 00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:54,500 You asked for final thoughts. Resting is not evil. 730 00:41:55,860 --> 00:41:57,300 Amen. Say it again. 731 00:41:57,460 --> 00:41:59,060 Resting ain't evil. 732 00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:00,020 Say it again. 733 00:42:01,060 --> 00:42:04,090 El descansar no es pecado. 734 00:42:04,410 --> 00:42:04,970 Okay. 735 00:42:05,050 --> 00:42:06,570 You can put subtitles on that. 736 00:42:06,570 --> 00:42:07,210 That's good. 737 00:42:09,530 --> 00:42:10,170 I love it. 738 00:42:11,690 --> 00:42:14,970 Rest is not something you have to earn. It's something that God 739 00:42:14,970 --> 00:42:15,530 gives you. 740 00:42:16,170 --> 00:42:20,010 That was. That one was better than mine. I like that. 741 00:42:20,250 --> 00:42:24,570 No, but I think they go hand in hand because we so often think. 742 00:42:24,570 --> 00:42:28,650 Like, you hyperventilated when he started saying that. 743 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:31,480 Okay, sorry. 744 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,200 Yeah, like, I operated from this place of, like, well, once I 745 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,880 finish X Y and Z, then I can rest. And it's like, oh, God literally 746 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,720 baked a rhythm of rest into creation before we did anything we 747 00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:48,840 don't have, before we produced anything. Yes. Like the first day. 748 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,160 Like, first basically full day that people were on the Earth. Rest 749 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,950 because God rested. And it's like, it's not something you have 750 00:42:55,950 --> 00:42:59,230 to earn. You don't have to put in your time, like, receive it. 751 00:43:00,110 --> 00:43:02,030 Receive it. There's humility in receiving it. 752 00:43:02,030 --> 00:43:02,430 Yes. 753 00:43:03,870 --> 00:43:05,870 Well, yes. 754 00:43:05,870 --> 00:43:06,470 You got a rich. 755 00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:10,949 I'm like, dang. I wasn't expecting to be personally attacked, 756 00:43:10,949 --> 00:43:11,750 but it's okay. 757 00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:12,830 It's what Eric does. 758 00:43:13,310 --> 00:43:15,790 I personally attack people all the time. 759 00:43:16,350 --> 00:43:18,270 That's why he hasn't been on the podcast yet. 760 00:43:19,470 --> 00:43:21,210 We've had to work soothing forgiveness. 761 00:43:21,210 --> 00:43:25,290 Forgiveness and betterness. All right, well, thank you guys so 762 00:43:25,290 --> 00:43:27,410 much. Thank you all for coming and for sharing your. 763 00:43:27,490 --> 00:43:31,530 It really is an honor to. Seriously, I. I appreciate the opportunity 764 00:43:31,530 --> 00:43:33,930 to come and talk with you guys. I'm thankful. 765 00:43:33,930 --> 00:43:38,050 Yeah, we like having you guys. Okay. And tell your spouse we said 766 00:43:38,050 --> 00:43:38,450 hi. 767 00:43:39,490 --> 00:43:42,370 I'm never leaving this with. Anyways. I'm never leaving this with. 768 00:43:42,370 --> 00:43:43,810 We love you guys. Peace out. 769 00:43:43,890 --> 00:43:45,220 Peace.