I'm Todd Miller of Isaiah Industries manufacturer of specialty metal

roofing and other building materials.

Today my cohost is Seth Heckaman, Seth, it's been a while since

you've been on the show.

Welcome back.

It has been.

Thank you.

Excited for today.

It's going to be a good one.

Been off on any world travels or any fun places.

You know, no fun travel, no world travel, just out

there peddling or metal roofing.

Right.

Now, I know you were just up in Michigan, so the

Michiganders are not going to like to hear it's not fun to be in

We keep that on the down low because I didn't see

my in laws while I was in state.

So we can't, we don't want to talk about that too much,

I'm just going to jump in right here, guys, and say, go blue.

Oh gosh.

Now we really have to move on

Thank you very much for tuning in today's show.

We appreciate,

Ha ha ha ha ha.

No, that's awesome.

Good stuff.

Well, Seth, I'm anxious for today's show and I know you are as well

and just to tell our audience, we are doing challenge words.

Once again, where each one of us on the show has been given some extra

special word that we are challenged to work into the conversation as

seamlessly and naturally as possible.

And at the end of the show, we will reveal to our audience, our success, or

lack thereof, and we have had that a few times at working in our challenge words.

Sales training doesn't develop sales champions, leaders do.

Thought provoking statement if you ask me.

Well, this is one of the phrases often used by today's guest here

on Construction Disruption, Mr.

Keith Rosen.

Since 1989, through his company, Profit Builders, Keith and his team have coached

hundreds of thousands of business owners, managers, and salespeople across the

globe, creating breakthrough results with improved productivity and life balance.

He has helped them to achieve rewarding goals, eliminate the challenges they face

at work, and create extraordinary lives.

And, if that's not enough, That wasn't enough.

Keith is also a bestselling author with books, such as The Complete Idiot's

Guide to Cold Calling, love that title, Own Your Day, Sales Leadership, and

Coaching Salespeople Into Sales Champions.

Keith Rosen, welcome to Construction Disruption.

It's a pleasure to have you with us.

Thanks for having me.

Appreciate it, Todd.

Well, I know what we really want to dig in today are some brass

tacks, coaching and advice for those out there in sales and sales leadership.

And, I know that Seth, who has used some of your materials and coaching our own

sales team is especially interested to hear what you have to say about those

things, but, first, kind of curious, can you tell us a little bit, tell

our audience where you came from?

What are your roots that brought you to where you are today?

And I understand that they actually include a little bit of home

improvement back there as well.

So, tell us what brought you here today.

Yeah.

So it's one of those, Hey, did you know about Keith?

After I graduated college and I, ran into a few buddies that, we're

starting a home design company and this was down in Maryland.

So, after graduating Maryland, we opened up this company and we were doing, you

know, full build construction, remodeling, and, probably did that for several years.

Until we built the company, for those of you who are familiar with the

magazine qualified remodeler magazine, we were rated the top 25, remodeling

companies in the country at that point.

So we were, we were doing very well and we were very successful.

And one day I'm reading the paper, I'll never forget it.

And, and I opened the newspaper, back in the day when people

read newspapers, by the way, I

Yeah.

generation knows what that is.

And I'm reading an article here about life coaching and I'm like, Wow.

That's really interesting.

And, the, the summation of the article was basically.

The coach would help individuals develop the best life they can

just like in sport coaching.

The coach is responsible for maximizing the performance of each player.

Well, the life coach would be the same around the their life.

Well, I took it to another level and, at that point, when I read that article,

within a year's time, I sold the rest of my partnership to my other partners

and open up my coaching practice.

When I was working within my remodeling business, I was the one who was

always out there selling, going out to customers homes and, you know, businesses

and, training all the salespeople.

And at that point coaching them, but I didn't know I was even coaching them.

So after I read this article, I'm thinking, wow, this could really apply to

salespeople and it can apply to managers.

And, once I saw the opportunity where I could support sales people around,

not only helping them balance their life, but also upskill them and help

them maximize not only their gifts, but also shifting their mindset.

So they're thinking like a sales leader and changing your mindset,

beliefs precede experience.

How you think is what you get that then transcended into their

skillset and how they showed up.

So my niche was really transformed into working with salespeople and, and

sales managers to really help up their game, and help up their people's game.

And, that was 31 years ago, 76 countries later and six continents.

That's an amazing story.

And yeah, I had no idea that it all started in home improvement.

Of course, Baltimore DC market has been, you know, a big,

successful home improvement market for years and years and years.

so that's awesome that, you started that way.

Well, a lot of our listeners are going to relate really well

to, to that that's for sure.

Well, I know that one of the things that we often see in the construction

industry, we're modeling industry, and I I'm guessing other industries as well.

My whole career has been spent in this industry also, but, is that the

sales manager tends to just be the cream that floats to the top and the

one that's been around the longest.

there's a thought, you know, if they have so much experience, they're going

to be the best one to tell others what to do, but I know from following

you that that often simply isn't the case that may not be the best

person to be leading your sales team.

Can you elaborate a little bit on that for us?

Oh, by all means this actually is a global epidemic,

regardless of industry, regardless of location, regardless of organization,

the, the quintessential stories pretty much starts like this.

I'm a great independent contributor.

I'm a great salesperson.

And one day, maybe my boss says, Hey, there's, there's an opening in management.

You want to be a manager and, you know, salespeople kind of look around

and say, sure, I'll be a manager.

And just like that, they're a manager.

Now, of course, no training and you know, no onboarding for that.

It's just, Hey, you were a great salesperson.

So of course, you're going to be a good manager.

Talk about a massive assumption.

So now the salesperson shows up the next day to work and they're a manager.

Now let's play this out.

Now they're responsible for a team of salespeople.

Well, the salespeople, of course, look to, you know, for their

support from their manager.

So a salesperson has a challenge.

They go to their manager.

Of course, the manager is probably, you know, in the middle of

something with all the, you know, things that are on their plate.

And they say, boss, I have a challenge.

I have a question.

Can you really help me on this?

And of course the manager.

Most of them are coming from a good place, good heart, good intentions.

They say, sure.

How can I help you?

And the salesperson shares their challenge.

Now, the visceral reaction of the manager is okay, in a nanosecond, they think,

wow, I've been doing this for a while, I've been in that person's situation.

So their response typically sounds like, hey, you know what?

When I was in your role, this is how I did it.

So you should do it as well.

And unfortunately that creates one of the greatest challenges,

to build sales champions.

Because if I'm telling people to do what I did, I am not honoring

their individuality, number one.

Number two, I am falling into the toxic trap of now I am coaching or managing in

my own image as in, hey, it worked for me.

It should work for you.

And now what we start doing is we start building automatrons.

We start building robots.

We start building mini me's.

And the irony of all this is, I've never met a manager who doesn't want

to develop a team of independent.

Accountable people.

And it's a paradox managers create the very problems they want to avoid.

So if we think this through, here I am, I'm a salesperson,

Todd, you're my manager, I come to you, you give me an answer.

Great, I go execute on it.

Well, what's the underlying message that I'm hearing?

What I'm hearing is, well, this is great.

Every time I have a problem, I can just go to my manager and they'll fix it for me.

I don't even have to think this is fantastic.

You're creating the very dependency managers want to avoid.

And let me be clear, you can't scale dependency.

When I had 20 salespeople, 30 salespeople, 50 salespeople in my remodeling business,

I can't have 50 people outside of my door waiting for me to give them an answer.

You can't scale that.

So now the manager falls into the realm of the role that you guys need to retire

from the role of chief problem solver.

You can't be a chief problem solver and a coach, you have to choose.

And the irony of course, of all this is if, Todd, you give me a

solution and I go execute on it.

And it doesn't work.

Whose fault is it?

Hey, boss, you told me what to do.

It's not my fault, it's your fault.

My hands are clean on this one.

And now we've actually robbed people of the very

accountability we want to instill.

I mean, if we stop and reflect on this, it sounds like insanity.

And I just want to share one more point.

As managers are coming from a good place and they truly want to support their

people, what they're not realizing is while some salespeople love when their

managers do their job for them, there is still some salespeople that when a

manager keeps giving them the answer, that salesperson is thinking, wow, my

manager didn't even ask for my opinion.

I guess they don't trust me.

I guess they don't have faith in my ability that they have

to give me the answer right.

away.

Gee, that's kind of eroding my trust in my manager, and it's

also eroding my confidence.

And that is the exponential cost of being that chief problem solver.

So the greatest leaders lead with questions.

Not answers.

Goodness, that that was incredible Keith.

So it resonates with me so much and

I

think it's going to resonate with anyone who's been in that

leadership and management position.

And that's the dream.

That's the panacea of a sales team of, you know, this group of individuals who are

thriving in their own natural giftedness, feel empowered to be strategic, not

dependent and always coming back and being needy for all the answers and, you know,

being accountable to their own results.

Correct me if I'm wrong, buddy, the last time I checked, isn't one

of the primary roles of managers is to make their people more valuable every day

and to build a bench of future leaders.

I'd be doing it this way.

So yeah, everyone can get bought into that vision.

It's incredible.

And it would be a game changer for every organization.

But I think the first, question I think most have, and the question I

came away from reading Salespeople and Into Sales Champions, it, How?

How do I start changing that mindset?

How do you know, start asking those questions and especially in the midst

of all the day in day out craziness because undoubtedly it takes more

time to lead with questions than just give the road answers and move on.

So, what, how do you coach people up starting from ground zero up from there?

Well, so, so let's let, let me share with you, something that

I created several years ago in my last book, Sales Leadership, because I quite

frankly got so tired of leaders telling me, well, coaching takes too long.

It's so much, it's so much easier just to give them the answer.

I mean, asking questions, I mean, gosh, that, that could take forever.

When I hear that it means one thing managers don't get coaching.

Okay.

So I had a, I used to call it a 60 second coaching strategy.

And I'm from New York and I talk kind of fast and I'm going

to talk really, really slow.

It's actually a 30 second coaching strategy that I would

challenge every leader and salesperson to start using today.

And I'm going to share it right now.

Here it is.

One of my salespeople comes to me.

Now I have a choice.

I can take this path and just visibly react, give them the answer

and get back to What I'm doing.

Or I could just take one little step back and think, I need to lead with a

question because the greatest coaches seek to understand other people's

point of view before underline, underline, underline, you share yours.

So here's the 30 second coaching strategy.

Hey, Mr.

or Mrs.

Salesperson, I'd love to share my opinion with you.

However, you're much closer to this situation than I am.

And I trust you.

And I trust your judgment on this.

So what's your opinion on how to achieve the results you want?

Again, I really slowed down.

I think it's 30 seconds.

I implore managers to use this strategy in every conversation

and every time one of your people comes to you seeking the answer.

Because think about it, if we break it down, they're looking for the answer.

What's the first thing you say?

Hey, I'm happy to share my opinion with you.

Oh, great.

I'm getting what I want.

However, you're much closer to this than I am, which is true.

So you're acknowledging them in their position and I trust

you and I trust your judgment.

Well, what do you think that's going to do in that relationship

and the level of confidence that salesperson is going to feel?

And finally, the billion dollar question.

So what's your opinion on how to move forward and achieve the results you want?

Now, before we move on, I want to also underline the word opinion

because my definition of coaching and selling is synonymous.

It's the art of creating new possibilities in every conversation.

Okay.

Selling is a language.

Coaching and leadership is a language.

The language is coaching, leadership, sales.

We speak coach, so in the most simplistic forms and listen, I know, you know,

our jobs are challenging enough.

My job is to make everyone's job easier.

So one question, can, can stimulate thinking critical thinking on the other

person's side by using that strategy.

And I want to also underline that word opinion.

Because if you ask someone, what are your ideas or, you know,

what's your solution or what's your strategy or what's your answer.

Solutions, strategies, and answers can be right or wrong, puts people on the spot.

But when you ask people for your opinion, opinions are not right

or wrong, and everyone has one.

So that creates a safe zone for that coachee to share their opinion and

for the manager to respect that.

Now, some of the listeners here are thinking, well, Keith, that's great.

If they give me the right answer, but what happens if they give me the wrong answer?

What if it's stupid?

That's the, my, my thought.

So what we're not going to do is we're not going to say.

Are you kidding me?

How long have you been in this position?

No, if you want to erode trust, that's the way to do it.

What we're going to do is we're going to respond by saying, hey, you know what?

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

I really appreciate it.

Let's walk through your strategy together so we can both come up with

the right strategy that's going to help you achieve the results you want.

Now it's a conversation.

It's not a competition.

You know salespeople and managers have tendency to be pugnacious sometimes.

And rather than, rather than, creating a rift, create the collaboration, okay.

When managers, are hearing from their people, a scenario that they know may not

work and they need to support them on it.

Don't just tell them what to do.

Again, seek to understand their point of view.

Collaborate.

Okay.

Don't interrogate.

Did he try this?

Did he try this?

Did he try this?

Did he try this?

No.

One question.

What have you tried so far?

I know one of the things that I have often found when, and

coaching isn't my nature either.

I mean, I realized this something I gotta, I have to work at, but one of the things

I've often found is that when I do ask those questions, I suddenly discover

things that are relevant to the situation that I had no idea, my answer wouldn't

have applied to those things at all.

And what I love about what you're telling here and teaching here is

that you are rewarding the person who wants to learn, who wants to get

better, who's being observant, and you're rising them up to be a champion.

And, you know, on the other hand, that salesperson who maybe really

is just in this, cause they thought it was going to be an easy gig

and, oh yeah, Joe, give me all the answers, I'll just do what he says.

It, it kind of puts them in an uncomfortable spot where they're

probably going to move on.

Well, it's, it's what I find is that when managers truly take that

position of coach, to empower, to give power to people, It really stimulates

critical thinking and it helps people create a greater level of self awareness.

And the biggest thing is confidence.

So when you are empowering your people to come up with solutions,

what do you think that's going to do to their level of confidence?

It's going to go up.

Now their confidence goes up, their belief in themselves go up.

Guess what happens for the manager's time?

People are no longer coming to them with every problem because you've empowered

your people with the strategies, and, and, and mindset and ability to

self generate solutions on their own.

So there's the lesson on time management.

You want to get your day back, coach more, work less.

Now I'm not saying you're not going to go to work.

I'm saying you're going to have less problems coming at you.

I love that.

that set up in that 30 second strategy is the game changer for me where, yeah,

after reading the book and working on it and understanding, you know, seeing

my own tendencies, I, I'm working on, you know, asking, starting with the

question, but I haven't had the setup.

I've just been asking, well, what do you think?

And it puts it in that, you alluded to it earlier, this sort of, I know the answer,

I'm withholding the answer right now.

And I'm just seeing if you give me the right answer and not versus the,

I trust you, I trust your perspective, you're closer, let's start there

and then we'll work together on it, that collaborative approach.

I'm curious, you know, on the other end of the spectrum, what if you

have a salesperson that you feel like is a little too overconfident, you

know, out over their skis in terms of thinking they, they don't need to

be as collaborative with the one with experience or skills or, or expertise.

How do you, without total undermining them and, and, you know, cutting their,

their legs out from under them, how do you try to reign it in a little bit?

So, can you unpack that a little more for me, Seth?

Overconfident.

Can you give me an example?

Not necessarily in terms of, cocky or how they carry themselves.

That's not what I'm alluding to, but just, missing that a little bit of collaboration

with someone who's done it longer and is more experienced, would help them.

So maybe it's a blind spot for them.

Is that fair to say?

That's a good, that's a good, see, he's, he's coaching me.

He's asking questions.

What kind of coach would I be?

If I didn't model what I, what I preach, right?

Got to walk your talk.

Um, this sounds like a, a self awareness issue.

And one of the things managers, leaders struggle with is coaching the inner game.

See once managers have a good sense of a coaching strategy mindset, and the habit.

They're good at coaching on, hey, here's the strategy, or here's the scale,

or here's what we need to work on.

Or here's the product knowledge we need to work on.

But when it comes to the inner game, for example, coaching attitude, coaching

confidence, coaching self awareness, coaching fear, where managers get

stuck is, well, how do I do that?

Cause think about it.

That's not a go do it's a goal be.

It's the inner game.

So when we're talking about someone where we need to amplify their self

awareness, we are not just going to walk up to them and say, hey man,

you have no level of self awareness.

Because again, that just is a surefire way to just destroy trust.

I want to introduce the concept of enrollment.

Enrollment is about setting positive intent.

And the model again, in its most simplistic form is,

hey, here's what we're doing.

Here's why we're doing it.

Here's what I want for you.

Now, managers are really, really good at telling people what to

do, except there's one problem.

When you tell someone what to do, the other person in their mind is

thinking, well, what's in it for me?

Everyone is tuned into WIIFM, right?

What's in it for me, your customers, your internal customers, your

external customers, your prospects.

That's what they're tuned into.

So if you tell them what to do, the first thing they're going to say is why.

Now the manager can go two ways, they can play the power card and say, because

that's, that's what we need to do.

And you got to go do it, or they can empower their people.

So when we're talking about, for example, dealing with someone who might be lacking

a little bit of self awareness, Now the manager has to approach that person.

Okay, now that's different.

Before we talked about the salesperson approaching the manager.

Well, what happens when the manager observes something

and they have to address it?

The last time I checked, the majority of people do not like conflict and

they do not like confrontation.

And the assumption that's made is, oh my God, this is going to be such

a difficult conversation, I know it's going to lead to an argument.

Well, again, that's an assumption.

Well, what if instead we start with something like this?

Hey, Todd, listen, you know, what I want for you is to achieve the goals

you have set here in your career.

And I noticed that there's a few things that you're doing that if we

can work on together, we'll help you achieve the results you want faster.

As well as help build your personal brand.

Are you open to talking about that?

Who would say no to that?

Because what I have done is I've established positive intent.

If you don't, and if I'm a manager and I say, Hey, Todd, I need to talk to you.

Come into my office.

What's your first reaction?

Oh, am I getting fired?

Did I lose a big deal?

Am I being put on a performance improvement plan?

Human beings default to fear.

So here's a little mantra I'd like to share when intentions aren't

clear, people default to fear.

It is, is it imperative for managers to be very clear where they're positive intent?

And what's in it for that person so that it opens up the dialogue

in a safe and empowering way.

I love that.

You know, one of the things that I keep thinking about as I listen to you, I mean,

have you ever seen company where, okay, you know, they get someone who gets it

and they start doing this sales coaching with their sales team and suddenly other

areas of the company, maybe accounting, maybe operations, maybe whatever, start to

say, hey, what's Keith doing over there?

That seems to be working so well with this team because everything

we're talking about here would work in any other discipline as well.

Have you seen it ever spread through a company like that?

Yes.

You know, it's interesting when you're, when you're dealing with, and I've

heard this from managers many, many times, sometimes, shifting a culture,

it's almost like turning a battleship.

You know, it can feel so overwhelming.

And what I share with leaders really resonates to your point is.

You know, how do you change a culture?

How do you transform talent?

One person at a time, one conversation at a time?

And if we're looking at, you know, all the different departments here,

and if we're looking at, for example, a manager with their sales team,

let's face it, the sales people are talking to their manager every day.

The manager is engaging and supporting their people every day.

Well, you can look at the overarching culture.

But what if the manager can develop a subculture?

Because again, every manager can develop the subculture they want among their

team so that their people can thrive.

And that's when every other team and every other department is looking and

saying, hey, what's, what's Todd doing?

What's Seth doing over there?

They're crushing it.

And that's how coaching can spread organically through the organization.

Absolutely.

It almost would become a, you know, rising tide raises all ships sort of situation.

Oh, that's good stuff.

That's good stuff.

Yeah.

Incredible.

So I sort of derailed some of Todd's questions that he was planning to

ask early on by jumping in there.

So excited for some of mine.

So thank you, Keith.

But I do want to, Todd was going to ask a little bit earlier and I think

it's so appropriate now with all this context is, you know, what, as you're

trying to build that organization and, and identifying the right person who can

fill this coach role rather than just a directive manage role, what are, what are

some of those key indicators, not just the longest tenure, not even necessarily

the highest sales volume, what, but other indicators of how you find that, sanguine,

you know, You know, willing to take the time manager to, to lead the team.

Yeah.

one thing is.

If we, you know, we, today we're living, we're still adjusting to this hybrid

world, You know, and, and prior to the pandemic, I share that if managers are

still managing and salespeople are still selling the way they did pre pandemic,

and they're doing the same thing today.

They're already set up for failure because 76 percent of all buyers

have changed the way they buy.

But only 17 percent of companies have changed the way they sell.

We can stop right there because to me, that is where the disconnect is.

Throwing more technology and platforms and automation for your

team certainly are supporting their role, but it's not a substitute.

The last time I checked technology doesn't sell and build relationships.

Salespeople do.

So what I find is managers today and salespeople today need

to be mindful of the dominant sales and leadership strategy.

And it's one word care.

Care is the dominant sales and leadership strategy, because that

is what your people want today.

Whether it's your team, whether it's your customers, whether it's Everyone

is still going through something and especially today, there is no

more line between work and life.

There's just life, especially if you're working at home.

And I always have this saying, you know, are you working at

home or are you living at work?

And to my point is, that's when the conversations for managers to

best support their people becomes more of a personal conversation.

I don't think many managers today are asking, hey, how are you balancing your

personal and professional responsibilities when you're working at home?

How are you turning off work at the end of the day?

So you can be present and engaged with you, your family, your children?

How are you honoring your self care regimen?

How are you taking care of yourself?

I can pretty much guarantee the only managers that are asking these

questions are the ones that I've coached on these questions, because

these are new conversations that no one would even consider because

we've never gone through this before.

So.

Especially when we're dealing sometimes with developing relationships on a one

dimensional screen, it is imperative for leaders to go deeper into who their

customers are and their people are to connect on a more personal level.

You know, I think it's interesting to think about

that, you know, that duality.

I mean, you know, you're, you're the, you're the worker, you

fill this role at work, but now you've got to add care to it.

And I was going to ask you, I was going to say, you know, 20 years ago,

would you have used that word care?

And I'm, I'm guessing probably not.

No, no, no care.

How about love?

Oh my God.

The word love.

Okay, rant coming, For years, you asked people why they stay at their job.

What do they say?

I love my boss.

I love my company.

I love my product.

I love my service.

I love my customers.

So why is the word love taboo?

Why is the word care taboo?

20 years ago?

Yes, totally different paradigm, totally different landscape.

But today, when people are so thirsty for connection and engagement,

that's what people want most.

The last time I checked guys, I don't remember asking a, salesperson.

Hey, let me ask you this, why, why are your customers buying from you?

And they say, Oh, because I'm a subject matter expert.

I don't remember any salesperson telling me that's the reason why their

customers buy, of course it is important.

Of course it's essential, but people are buying because of the connection

you're fostering in the level of trust between you and your customers.

And that's is ultimately the sales person's responsibility

and taking that up, the manager's responsibility to their team,

Reminds me a lot of Jeb Blunt's first book was People Buy You.

And yeah, good, good, good answer

Jeff's a great guy.

He's a friend of mine.

Awesome.

Yeah.

I love how you keep tying this back to where it applies both on the

coaching side and on the sales side.

And, and it makes so much sense why wouldn't it we, and we're so quick to

talk about some of these things more on the sales side, this consultative

approach, you know, having the customer's best interest in mind, finding their

ideal solution, just working with them.

And, you know, being that sort of, having that benevolent mindset going

in and it'll all work out for you.

But yeah, carrying that back to inter organization dynamics or working

with each other and caring for each other would be total game changer.

And even building off that there.

It's not much of a trend, a shift between consultative selling and

really coaching your customers.

The best salespeople today are coaching their customers to succeed.

The greatest leaders today are coaching their people to succeed.

Now, if you want to talk about transforming a culture,

that's where it starts.

If everyone is working off the same mindset, philosophy, languaging of

coaching, that's how you shift a culture.

Now you have mindshare around the organization of what a

true coaching culture means.

You know where you're saying coaching the customer

to success, I, I like that.

And, and I get the concept and it makes me think a little bit of, of Donald Miller's

stuff, make the customer the hero.

But can you expand a little bit?

Cause I think that's kind of a new concept to a lot of our listeners,

expand a little bit on what that means to coach your customer to success.

Yeah.

Well, if we look at, for example, a generic sales process, well, what is it?

It's okay.

So I have, let's say it's outbound.

Okay.

So I have to, you know, I identify my ideal customers and then I'm, I'm going

to make my outbound calls and, and, at, at that point, hopefully I'll be

asking some questions because again, there are so many parallels between

professional selling and coaching.

Seeking to understand the customer's point of view first, before you throw up and

show up is selling as well as coaching.

Asking open ended non leading questions is selling and coaching.

People like being asked questions because that demonstrates care.

It shows that you are truly interested in what they have to say.

And you're not starting with, okay, I have these 350 slides

that I think are important and I'm now going to dump on you.

I don't really care if you're interested in them or not.

They're important to me.

That's selling in your own image.

We need to shift to understand and align how buyers like to

buy, not how we like to sell.

Pivoting a little bit or transitioning from, you

know, these overarching principles.

I'd love to hear, you know, some of your just nuts and bolts day in and day

out sort of recommendations or tactics.

And you, you alluded to it earlier, this new dynamic of, sales leaders being in

this position of coaching someone, you know, through a screen where no long, you

know, we're States and thousands of miles away and trying to have that relationship.

And so what, with that specific context, what are, what are some of the best

practices or recommendations for building that depth of relationship and that

comfort level to be able to have this, coach and coachee sort of dynamic.

Yeah.

You actually brought up one of the biggest challenges, that I hear from managers

when they say, Keith, I don't understand.

You know, I tried to coach this person and they're, they're reluctant.

I don't understand.

And, there's one reason.

Because people didn't understand your intention.

So for example, okay, here I am Keith and yesterday I was the quintessential

chief problem solver running around and like a heat seeking missile I love

putting out fires and solving problems.

And then I had this epiphany and I made this transformation in my

thinking like, Oh my God, giving people answers is not helping them.

I need to tap into their wisdom.

I need to tap into their individuality.

So yesterday, here I am, my salespeople are coming to me, they expect the answer,

I give them the answer, well, maybe I went through this episode and I learned, wow,

I need to start leading with questions.

So the same salespeople are now coming to you and you're thinking, whoa,

I'm not going to give the answer, I'm going to start asking questions.

So I might say something like, so Todd, how did you handle

a situation like this before?

And the salesperson is thinking, well, Todd, I just need the answer, buddy.

Just tell me what I need to do.

Like you always, you just don't know.

I understand.

And I'm happy to share my opinions with you.

I'm curious.

what do you feel the best way is to achieve the results you want?

That's why I'm coming to you boss for you to tell me that.

No, no, no.

I appreciate that.

Well, what assumptions might you be making about the customer that could

be getting in the way of connecting with them on a deeper level?

Listen, I don't know what you're doing, but I'm out of this conversation.

Okay.

Cause you're freaking me out right now.

Am I in trouble?

Are you putting me on a pit?

Are you firing me?

Why are you drilling me with these questions?

People don't understand your intention they default to fear.

So we need to set the new rules of the game upfront when managers are changing

anything as little as it can be, they need to enroll their people in positive change.

So that bleeds back to enrollment.

What could that sound like?

It could sound like this.

Well, Todd, you know, what I want for you is to achieve the

success you want in your career.

And.

I've been working on how I can be a better coach for you so I can

support you in a better way to accelerate where you want to go.

Now keep in mind this is something we're both going through together so I'm not

going to get it perfect the first time but I just want you to be mindful that

rather than keep giving you the answer, I really want to seek to understand your

knowledge, your ideas, because you're the expert and I know you got this.

So are you open to giving this a try to see how it works?

Let's go ahead and set the parameters of coaching to ensure it works for you.

Are you open to the conversation?

Now they understand your intent.

They understand your why and what's in it for them.

Good stuff.

Well, so I know that your company, Profit Builders, you know, helps

companies, coaches companies how, how to do this and how to get better.

But I'm kind of curious for any of our folks out there who may be listening,

saying, gosh, I wonder where my organization really stands on all of this.

Is this really happening here?

It's kind of funny.

I mean, I remember once I was giving a speech at my alma mater and the College

president turned to someone else and said, do we do what he's talking about?

because I was relating to them things that I had experienced there.

But, are there any sort of easy litmus tests that a business owner could

kind of filter their own company through to help them decide whether

they need your company's help or not?

Oh, absolutely.

Well, first of all, only 1 percent of all organizations

have truly a coaching culture.

Now don't get me wrong.

There are, there are sparkles of brilliance in every company, and

there are some incredible leaders in every organization that have

embraced coaching on their own.

However, when we're looking for a full organizational transformation,

the first thing, let's face it, avalanches roll downhill, right?

It starts from the top.

So when I'm having a conversation with whether it's a VP of sales or a CSO or

a CEO, some of the questions I'll ask is, well, give me, you know, share with

me the day in the life of a manager.

And I'll hear, well, yeah, most of the time they're just putting out

fires and doing their people's job and, you know, super salesperson,

I will help you close that deal.

Okay.

Well, may I ask how many, how often are they taking a time to

do one on ones with their people?

Oh no, they're not doing that.

Okay.

how much training have your managers had specifically?

On understanding and mastering the skillset and mindset

of performance coaching.

Oh, no, we haven't done that, we just promote our top salespeople to managers.

Okay.

Well, may I ask, how many, how many of your salespeople are hitting quota?

Ooh, Keith, that's a really sensitive subject right there.

Hmm.

Considering that, last year, I think, what was it?

Only.

27% of all organizations hit quota and the level of disengagement in

organizations is a whopping 92%.

And we hear about this new catchphrase, quiet quitting.

People might be working with you, but if they're disengaged, it's

costing companies billions of dollars.

So this is really something that companies need to stop and

take a time to self-reflect.

And the reason why they're not is because of companies doing good.

Yeah, we're doing good.

You know, we don't need anything.

Let's just keep on selling.

Well, you know, when companies are often calling me is when they're not doing

very well and let's face it, you can't hide when things are tough out there.

Anyone can sell in good times.

Anyone could be a transactional order taker in good times, but it's during

the difficult times when the true character of our essence of who we are

gets tested, and that's when the true leaders and salespeople rise to the top.

So just some of the questions I've shared with you really help put in

front of the leader's mindset is.

We really need help.

Oh, and by the way, Keith, we're experiencing 30 percent turnover.

Wow.

That's a lot.

What if we can reduce that by 20 percent and what if we can increase,

you know, the, your, your salespeople's ability to hit quota and what if

we can turn around your C players?

Here's a rhetorical question.

Have you ever seen a company that doesn't have a C player?

And have you ever seen a company that keeps their C players

around just a little too long?

And then they wonder why they're spending their time oiling the squeaky wheel.

The person who may not want to change rather than working

with the people who do.

Your B players, your A players who value you, who want to

do better, who want to grow.

And the real irony here is that managers are rewarding their

underperformers because the reward they're giving them is their time.

And time is the only thing that we have a limited, ability.

We can't expand that.

We can't put it on pause.

So if you're investing time in people who don't want to change, you're not

investing your time with the people who do, and this falls into another,

massive challenge that leaders fall into, which is being seduced, by potential.

So they might see, for example, someone who came aboard and they were an A

player and they were doing great.

And all of a sudden they slipped to B status.

And the next thing the manager sees is this person is now a C player.

Let's face it, you know, we want, of course, a team of A players.

There's always room at the winner's table for a solid B player.

The people that are hitting their numbers, good corporate citizens,

empowering great collaborators.

There's no room at the winner's table for the C player.

So now here's the manager, you know, having conversations

now with the C player.

Hey, what's going on?

You know, you used to be a top performer and the C player says, well, yeah, you

know, I've really been struggling with this, this, this big change and, and how

we're working and, you know, I've had some personal issues, but don't worry,

boss, I'll turn it around next month.

And you're thinking, well, great.

You know, I hope they do because it's a lot more time consuming

and it's a lot more expensive.

To have to replace someone, then to turn someone around.

So the manager is thinking, okay, let me give it another month and another

month passes, and inevitably the manager has a similar conversation

with that salesperson, hey, Mr.

or Mrs.

Salesperson, what happened?

Oh, well, you know, those two deals I said, I was going to

bring in this month, one of them fell through, but the other one's

definitely going to close next month.

So what's the manager thinking?

Okay, well, we need that business.

I'll hang out for another month and the next thing this manager knows they

turn around and this underperformer has been there for three, six, nine,

12 months, two years because of the seduction of potential we see in people.

What is missing is evidence of change and certainty.

That's what managers need to see.

They need to see the commitment from that C player who truly wants to change to work

with them consistently on step by step to get them back to where they need to be.

And that is called giving each person unconditional support.

Not conditional support, not, well, I'll support you if you're only, you

know, doing well, or I'll support you if you're only doing bad.

That's conditional.

And it can be very confusing to your team.

It's like, well, who's showing up today?

Is it my empowering manager or is it my directive manager?

You know, they're going to think you're schizophrenic.

We need to be unconditionally supportive of all our people, because now we're

speaking about the manager's legacy and how they want to be known.

I'm kind of curious.

This is probably a, maybe a tough question.

I don't know.

Any words of advice, let's say for a salesperson out there who is in

an organization that, they know they're not being coached, right.

And they know that's not an empowering organization, but yet, you know, there's

things that they love about it and they don't necessarily just want to move on.

Any ways for that salesperson to try to be the instrument to create change?

Brilliant.

Everyone needs to understand personal development is your responsibility.

It's not your manager's responsibility.

It's not your company's responsibility.

Your professional and personal growth is your responsibility.

So now let's take this to the next level because Todd, what you're

sharing is how can people coach up?

Wait a second.

I'm a manager.

Aren't I only coaching my directs?

No, a true holistic coaching culture is.

I'm a manager.

I'm coaching my peers, salespeople, coaching their peers, salespeople,

coaching their customers and salespeople coaching up to their managers.

That's a transparent coaching culture.

So again, that's the theory, but you know what?

I'm a tactical guy.

People want to wrap their hands around something that keep

giving me something I can do.

Well, here's something you can do.

It's another opportunity.

And there's that word I'm using again, enrollment, clearly essential

theme, because the greatest leaders are the greatest communicators.

Okay.

So coaching up could sound like if I'm not getting the coaching and support

that I need, it may not be my manager's fault because if my manager isn't getting

the coaching and support they need.

They may not be able to recognize the needs of others.

So it could be a blind spot for managers.

Let's take another scenario.

Let's say the manager, is managing you in a way where it's not working after all.

Then the manager, we fall into that trap again about managing in our own

imaging, managing everyone the same.

If you're a salesperson or non salesperson and you're, you know,

you're being managed in a way which is not supporting your growth.

Go to your manager and enroll them in how you want to be managed.

And it doesn't sound like, hey, Mr.

And Mrs.

Manager, you know what?

I hate the way you're being managing me.

You're being really directive, please stop.

Cause that's not going to change anything.

What if you tried this approach?

hey, Mr.

And Mrs.

Manager, you know what I want for you and what I want for the organization

is for me to be a value contributor.

And there are certain things that I've noticed that you're doing, which

are really, really helping me thrive.

At the same time, there's a couple of things that I'd like to talk to you,

which really aren't working for me.

That's why I would love to have a deeper conversation about the best

ways, how I like to be managed.

So you can get the most out of me and together we can

thrive and collaborate best.

Are you open to having that conversation?

I can't imagine a manager saying no.

Think about the stand now the salesperson is taking, not just for them, but

for the company, for the manager.

Hey, Mr.

and Mrs.

Manager, what I want for you, I want to make your job easier.

Best way to make your job easier is to help me.

I know you are a wealth of information and I'd love to shift our parameters

and kind of create some guidelines of how I like to be managed so

you can maximize my performance.

What manager wouldn't want to do that?

This has been great.

and you told me going into this, Todd, I'm sure we could talk for

hours and, you're absolutely right.

We certainly could, but at some point we got to decide to wrap it up.

So this has really been great talking to you.

And we are close to wrapping up what we call the business end of things.

Anything we haven't covered today that you wanted to be sure to tell our audience.

Yes.

If we look at any culture, okay, people create the mindset.

Mindset shapes behavior.

Behavior defines your culture.

And your culture determines your success.

And that is why the primary objective of every organization is to make

their people more valuable every day.

If we look at what happens with managers, they wake up in the morning and all

of a sudden I got to hit my number.

I got to get my sales people selling.

I got to close more deals.

Okay.

What can I do to make my people, you know, close more deals today.

Okay.

And they're thinking about revenue and results and goals and

stressing them out in the morning.

They're asking themselves the wrong question.

You can ask, what do I need to do to generate more revenue?

And what do I need to do to close more deals?

The question great leaders ask themselves every morning is, what

can I do today to make my people more valuable today than they were yesterday?

That's how you stimulate transformation, both in the hearts, in the minds, as

well as in the actions and skills of your people to develop a world class

thriving team of sales champions.

Such incredible words of wisdom and great advice there, Keith.

Thank you.

Especially, I think, in this day and age of, you know, low unemployment,

difficulty getting people engaged.

And, you know, you're asking something there that, you're probably younger

than me, but we're similar age.

You know, 30 years ago, we didn't ask those questions.

And so I, I love the new mindset here.

Good stuff.

Well, Keith, we are at something now that we call our rapid fire round.

And so this is seven questions that we're going to pose to you

and all you have to do is give a quick response or a long response.

I could tell you're all up to it.

Let's do this.

Seth, you want to ask the first question?

Sure, absolutely.

These range from silly to serious.

They're, they're a good time.

So question number one, if you could have any fictional character

as a best friend, who would it be?

SpiderMan.

The New Yorker, of course you go that way.

Yeah.

Oh, that makes sense.

Okay, I know that you're a music guy.

I see the guitar back there, and I've heard this before.

So, what is the best or most memorable music concert you've ever attended?

Hmm.

I would say The Sphere, but I have not gotten there yet.

I would have to say the last three, final shows of The Grateful Dead in

Chicago, after a 50 year run where, Trey Anastasio of Phish, which is one of my

other favorite bands, played lead guitar.

and I have to say that was probably one of the most memorable,

concerts I've ever experienced.

That being said, my, my genre goes from Grateful Dead to Phish to Green Day

to Eric Clapton to, Maroon 5 to, to, Billy Joel to, The Stone Temple Pilots,

Bush, Nirvana, I mean, everything.

And, and, by the way, the next time we, do one of our sessions.

I take requests.

I'm happy to play, happy to play some songs for, for everyone here, you know?

So, I would say though, I'm a, I'm a jam band kind of guy.

So I'm the, I'm the guy who's sneaking in the front, riding the rail and I have

to be right in front of that guitarist because, that to me, when, when you

could see the passion that they put into playing and, and, you know, you think

of the greatest guitarists in the world, Jerry Garcia, Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix,

you know, of course my, my favorite Trey Anastasio, you know, you just can

see that they're not playing from their head, they're playing from their heart.

And that's what I want for every salesperson and leader.

You know, you sell from your heart.

You coach from your heart.

That's how you connect with people.

So, without going too much more on a tangent on music, I'm just going

to shut that one down right now.

Awesome.

So I have to ask that.

So my wife and I had Dead In Company tickets last summer and

then our whole family got COVID.

So it derailed it.

But I'm curious, did you see, did you see them with, with Mayer on guitar?

I've seen, them many times.

I'm a little spoiled because I've seen, let's say, a hundred

shows with Jerry Garcia.

And, as much as I believe John Mayer is wicked talented and he's amazing.

And I love Bobby Weir.

God bless the guy.

He's 80 years old.

He's in amazing shape and he can still, I think he's still one of the

greatest guitarists and underrated.

But they're at that age, you know, and, and it kind of,

they slow it down a little bit.

What was a fast song before is now a slow song.

do I still enjoy going to hear that music?

Absolutely.

And I'll tell you something.

I love the fact that the younger generations are going and

they're appreciating that music.

So, and just one final point here.

And no judgment on good music.

Well, maybe, maybe a little judgment on new music.

I should say, there's a reason why these old bands like Lynayrd Skynyrd

and Kansas and all these other bands and Journey, are still touring because

that's you can't replace this music.

It's the best music out there

It is.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

All right.

Question number three, what, well, you said 76 countries

and six continents earlier.

So this may be your favorite city you visited or what is one city

you would most like to still visit,

Toledo, Spain, is one of my top favorite cities, in the world

I don't want to insult all of my my my international friends because to

me every company, every organization, every culture organizationally wise

or geographic wise, it is such a gift for me to be able to travel.

And my core values are, learning lifelong learning.

And that means studying different religions and studying different cultures.

So I can connect with people on their level.

One of my core values is, connection, adventure, making an impact all of

these things that that I am able to express when I do travel and looking

at some of the countries I've been, I'm not going to tell you the ones I don't

want to go back to, but I will tell you the ones that I truly love that are

showing up right now, is, Ireland, one of my favorite countries, absolutely.

I mean, come on, first of all, you can't beat the Guinness there.

It's, it doesn't travel well to all my Irish friends.

And, It's the, one of the only places in the world where you can walk into a

pub and leave with 10 new best friends.

So Ireland love, Spain, one of my favorites, Switzerland

is one of my favorites.

Gosh, I can keep going and going.

Malaysia was incredible.

I've been, I've been to, you know, just experiences like I've been to Saudi

and I've been to Egypt and I've been to South Africa and South America.

It is so hard to, to label, I could, I could, I could literally walk

through every one of those and change my mind and say, you know what?

No, no, no, no.

Brazil's my favorite.

No, no, no, no, no, Argentina no, no, no, no, it's India.

no, it's Africa.

You know, I can, because every experience and I feel so blessed

cause quite frankly, I don't think.

People today will ever have an opportunity with the state of our world is to go

to 76 countries on six continents.

And to me, it was such a gift that I got having worked with global

organizations and to connect with people across the world.

And.

You know, you know, we talk about music and I always say, and call me Pollyannic,

I believe music can solve world peace.

I really do.

You know, there was a reason why they had live aid.

There was a reason why they had Woodstock and it brought hundreds

of thousands of people together.

And in any culture, wherever you are in the world, there's a C

chord, there's a B chord, there's a melody, there's an instrument.

So to me, if we can use music to connect, because it's one of the universal

things we all have in common, music, dancing, food, and of course, coaching.

You know, I love that it is crazy because I've been thinking recently

that we need one of those world concerts.

That is really something we need right now.

So, well, next question.

If you could instantly master any skill, what would that skill be

I'd really like to learn how to fly.

I think that would be really cool.

In a plane I assume?

Just, just

Okay.

Superman, like Superman, you know,

Gotcha.

You get a little invisibility invisibility, invisibility, invisibility,

being the invisible man can be kind of fun

Gotcha.

Rapid fire.

Number five, what is the best or conversely, what is the worst piece

of advice you have ever been given?

When you are going out on a one call close and you

give the price, you can always drop price without justification.

Wonderful advice.

Wow.

And then I wonder why I wasn't selling.

Oh, I can tell you came from home improvement also.

Right.

I know my friends out there would appreciate that one.

Okay, question number six.

What is your favorite flavor of ice cream?

Hmm.

The, what if I'm a lactose intolerant?

Yeah, that's a bummer.

I could still answer that question.

I don't know.

I'm just a vanilla guy.

Yeah,

Interesting.

works.

I wouldn't have guessed that, though.

Last question.

What is a product or service you've purchased recently?

That was a real game changer.

Wow.

So any, anything.

Anything?

Well,

you know, I have to say I feel very blessed.

I, recently, built my dream home.

Ironically, it was right across the street from where I raised my family.

It was just one of those weird scenarios, where I live.

It was just, a beautiful, beautiful piece of property and.

We're able to build, my wife and I built our dream home.

and, I have to say that, my Anderson windows that are in my

home are probably one of my favorite products that I've bought recently.

They're gorgeous.

And it really, you know, I look around at these incredible black

windows and sliding doors, and it just adds so much character to my home.

And, plus the fact that, they are truly an incredible company.

So, I would say that's, that's the way it sounds silly, but that's

what jumped in my head windows.

Not at all related, how many RBA locations are clients of yours?

Next question.

know what would be fun, though?

let's do another show, and let's maybe have you and your wife on

it, and talk about that process of building your dream home.

That could be a really fun thing to unpack for our audience, I think, so.

Yeah.

And then you guys, I always say, and I say this from loving affection when I want to

feel really, really good about myself and making an impact, I work with my clients.

If I want to get really, really humble and beaten down, I hang out with my family.

So just to give you a couple of, real quick scenarios.

I remember I have three children, and I have twins in the mix.

And I remember, my son, he was about 10 years old and we're sitting

in the kitchen and he looks at me and he says, dad, you know, when

you married mom, you married up.

Can't agree with that.

One more final point here during COVID, as many people, we got our

COVID puppies, I managed to get two COVID puppies and they're wonderful

because they're just, you know, no one is going to be happier to see you than

your dog, it's unconditional love.

So you guys can pretty much see where I'm going with this.

I say to my wife, and this is just about two weeks ago, I say,

honey, now Mac is my girl dog.

I say, honey, Mac and I are in a river.

Okay.

Before I even finish, she says, Mac, I said, honey, I didn't

even finish the question.

She said, I don't know what you can ask me if Mac, if you and Mac are in a river

and I had to save one person, who would I say, sorry, it's going to be the dog.

No offense, but you're worth more dead.

I'm like, wow.

That's why I have to go off for a trip and work for some clients.

Oh, with friends like this, who needs, who needs enemies, right?

I am very, very, very blessed, to have three children

that are the absolute center of my universe and 27 years of marriage.

And, I'm feeling very very deeply in a state of gratitude that

my wife still puts up with me.

So

That's cool.

Very neat.

Well, Keith, thank you again.

for folks who want to get in touch with you, or Profit Builders,

how can they most easily do that?

So number one, connect with me on LinkedIn.

Okay.

I'm always posting new content, Twitter, sign up my newsletter, go

to my website, keithrosen dot com.

Okay.

I also have a ton of new resources.

Books and online training courses that I'm giving away for free.

So please, I implore everyone take advantage of that stuff.

It's really going to make a difference.

And, and finally, just to support unconditionally your listeners out there,

if they enjoyed our conversation, I'm happy to support you in any way I can.

Even if it means offering your company, just a free workshop.

Because I, I know companies are struggling today and it's just my

way of really wanting to give back to our, construction community.

Wow, that's cool, very generous.

Well we will put that information in the show notes as well.

So, before we wrap up, I will announce that we were all successful

getting our challenge words in.

Seth, you had the word

Sanguine.

Sanguine.

Kind of like, you make it sound like penguin.

Is there such thing as the sanguine penguin?

Yeah,

probably

Am I mispronouncing my challenge,

You're spot on

Oh, okay.

You're spot on.

Sorry.

Didn't mean to imply that.

Keith, you had the word,

Which you worked in excellently.

I think I got mine in.

Duality.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

Okay.

Good deal.

Well, such a fun time and very informative.

This has been great.

Thank you so much, Keith.

Oh, deeply.

My pleasure.

Thanks so much for having me on your show.

Thank you.

And thank you to our audience for tuning into this very

special episode of construction disruption with Keith Rosen of Profit Builders.

Please watch for future episodes of our podcast.

we always have great guests.

Don't forget to leave a review on YouTube or Apple podcasts.

Until the next time we're together, though, keep on disrupting, keep

on challenging, keep on looking for better ways of doing things.

And most importantly, don't forget to have a positive impact

on everyone you encounter.

So God bless and take care.

This is Isaiah Industries signing off until the next episode

of Construction Disruption.