That is a very scary situation, especially at a young age to retire. I

retired at 38 years old.

Yeah. That's a scary situation. Is that my final hurrah

at such a young age? It's also the realization that, sure, I could buy a

lot of things, but those things, those materials Didn't make me happy. They

didn't fill that void.

Can a simple hike open the door to profound insights and life

changing conversations? Welcome to Seek Go create where we explore

this intriguing idea with Darren Mast, a former

CEO turned business therapist who finds clarity and

connection on the trails with the world's leading business

achievers. Darren's story is a roller coaster of ambition,

Success and introspection. After selling his company, Mass

Communications, for 40,000,000, Darren found himself grappling with a

sense of loss and confusion. It was a hike that

transformed his perspective and led to the creation of his

podcast. I took a hike of empower listening, great

podcast, where he shares in-depth conversations with top

entrepreneurs Amidst nature's backdrop.

Darren, welcome to Seek, go create. Thank you. And I definitely did not

script that, and I could not have said it better. So Well done.

Welcome. It's good to have you, Dan. I'm excited about this conversation. I stumbled

upon you on LinkedIn, and I said, This is a guy we're either

related or cousins or need to be or whatever, and so we're

gonna have a fun conversation all about redefining here. But

before I dive into things, let's

pretend or not really that we just bumped into each other. I ask you what

you do. What do you tell people when they ask What do you do?

I help business owners crawl out from the rock that they fell

on. Do you like that question? Do you hate the

question sometimes as much as I do? So I was

part of a networking group a while back during COVID when we all

needed some help. And the purpose of the networking group is to never ask,

what do you do? Why? Because not to crap all over lawyers, but if you

tell me you're a lawyer, I'm thinking probably one of a few things,

Right. But that means I'm not thinking about your, you as a

person. And that's when all of this clicked with me,

that It doesn't matter what you do. You as a person is more important. So

yes, I do not like that question, as the opener.

It naturally comes out because that's our default bias. We always want to

categorize and lump people into things. So, yeah, if you're a lawyer, here's

your bucket. You're a doctor. Here's your bucket. If you hike

for a living and share inspiration with all the listeners

on a podcast, You don't have a bucket. You're

somewhere in the cookie category. So there I am in the cookie category.

I think some of us are getting to a place where we Tried to be

in the bucket for many years, and now we've spent a period

of time, years, whatever, trying to be outside the

bucket. It Sounds like that's a good bit of what your journey's been.

Correct? Yeah. I think this stems from

yep. I'm the tail end of generation x, The ex gen

maybe arguably some millennials born in May of 1980.

My people Didn't want to be like their parents.

We didn't want to live in that house, go to work in the morning,

come home, eat dinner, wake up, Go to work and repeat,

repeat, repeat. So we've all had this really strong sense

of work ethic. Right? We do. We went to work. We worked hard. We

climbed that corporate ladder. We sought after the jobs we wanted.

Right. We earned it. But then when we became parents, we started

realizing that Wait, I'm my dad

or I'm my mom. And we started seeking something different.

Right? We seek, we go and we Create it. There you go. Here you go.

But that is, is very, very much my mission as well

as many others. And I think we are all collectively finding unique

ways to earn a living, earn a keep, but more important, find

balance to enjoying our lives. Because I'm not going to say

that my parents Don't enjoy their life? They do now in retirement in

Florida, but they didn't enjoy their life.

Granted, if I asked Tim the question, do you enjoy your life at

45? They would have said, sure. But I didn't witness

that. I didn't witness the social nights out or

the friend hangouts or the parties or the

work celebrations. I witnessed my dad just

getting through life. And that is something that I didn't want to

be. And many people like you and I have

found a good trajectory to not be like that.

So what's interesting is that you say you're on the tail end of that, I

guess, that generation X I'm on the tail end of the baby boomer. So it's

almost like we're this odd tail end of 2

generations That I I

ended up going down the path, even though I didn't want to. Sounds like you

did a little bit too. We'll talk about that in just a moment, But yet

I didn't want to. And I don't know if I didn't know how to get

out or if I just didn't know what I didn't know, but I do

think it's part of a journey and it seems like all of

our stories, this is what we talk about here is almost every situation

Is a journey, but I wanna go into that, but real quick, a bigger question,

because now you're working with people. You call yourself a business therapist, which we'll, we're

gonna talk about that in just a Seek. But But

can people get outside of the

bucket On their own, or

does there have to be some kind of event Or

external thing happen or some kind of

come to Jesus or whatever you wanna call it That forces that.

Because I know yours will talk about it some as it was a transition

from being a CEO going through an exit. Mine was

2008, the downturn. Those were

external things that we may have known about, may not,

but Can we lead people down that path as an executive

coach and a business therapist without having to go through a bunch of

crap? So

broad generalization with everything we're saying, right? Of course, there are

individuals that were born into entrepreneurship. I feel like I was

born into entrepreneurship. My grandfather was an entrepreneur. My father had a

moment. My uncles have moments. Go I think you're born

into it. That spark Does happen naturally. But

for many, right, at the risk of generalizing, for

many, You do need that existential

wake up call that life changing wake up call, whether or not, you

know, it was a health scare That made you realize, oh my God,

what am I doing here? Or a nudge from a care, a

caring party or a loved one. I think

we are programmed to go to school at an

early age. We are programmed to obey Party and listen

to our Winders, all well and good. Alright.

But that programming for many does create this robotic

life, Does create the going to work and coming home. And

that's the purpose of life until you have children and

a wake up call. As a father, What was I doing? I was

working really hard, but then I became a father and now I'm working really hard

for this purpose, taking care and supporting my family.

Mothers taking care and supporting family, going to work to support a

family. Right? We have this meaning. I think there is that

click though, and it's usually a life changing event for me.

I've had multiple clicks in my life. I've had bouts of depression,

like many I've had lots of those

existential conversations in my brain saying, what am I

doing? What is this purpose? Why am I doing this? Many can

relate to that. And I think it's that style

thinking and those types of events that build

greatness, great character, and these purposeful

events. You mentioned that you Winders of

have genetically wired entrepreneur

In in your blood. I think that I do too. It's interesting. You Winders skipped

a generation, but I was wanting

to hustle, do business, Make me some money,

you know, right early on, but

then something Wanted me to go

to college, get that education, and then I had a company

in college, and then I went to work corporate for 9 years before I was

able to Bussed away from that. Safety. Talk about You went

to the safety aspect of things. Safety, just got married,

stuff like that. You think you need to do money, but it's interesting. I think

you posted something, and I I don't even know if I still have it pulled

up here. You do post a lot. I post at least 6 days a week.

Yeah. You do a LinkedIn. You're Seek people need to check you out on LinkedIn.

I enjoy it. That's what, what part drew me to it. I think you put

a picture of you back when you were a kid, the earring,

the buzz head, all that kind of stuff. You wanted to be a rock and

roll number for the state. Yeah. Yeah. I am not going to be putting up

my yearbook photo because there was a lot of hair there, and there was a

lot of hairspray with it. A lot more hair than you had. Shows shows the

difference in the generation. You were Go, so yes.

Sometime, here's what you said here. Sometimes we spend chasing

something we want. You put that in quotes only to find

out it isn't The thing we

need is it, doesn't that appear that's what most people are

doing or not even want They think it's what

they want, or they think it's what they should want

might be, something there. So talk about that. Yeah.

That's marketing at its finest, self marketing and ex external

marketing. We want these things, and we set

goals to achieve them. We wanna drive a Ferrari, So we work really hard to

earn the money for a Ferrari. Then we get a Ferrari and we spend our

lives obsessing over the dent where the scratch we just got on a

Ferrari. Right? What I mean by that is when we

achieve the thing we wanted, we find out it didn't solve or fill the

void that was missing all along. We're not happy with ourselves.

It's the reason why the most prescribed drugs on the

planet are anti depression drugs, because we're

depressed on our wanting journey.

My message is all about and granted, it did take me a lot of

wanting, Achieving and Reflections Discover

This, but my message is really about when you achieve

the want, It didn't fix the void.

So stop wanting and wishing our lives away and start celebrating and living

in the moments. Now, granted, I don't always practice what I preach.

Right? I talk about being present and in the moment.

Be there for your children because that is the only generational wealth

that matters. I'm not talking about money. I posted something on this the

other day. Generational wealth is misunderstood. If I leave my kids

$100,000,000 without rules and guidance or trust

and a map, I just screwed them up for generations to come. They become lazy,

complacent. They're pieces of garbage. No offense to anyone who's a piece of

garbage. But, if I set them up

with education, knowledge, We helped work

on their personality to become likable, charismatic people

that like to help others. Good, strong work

ethic, a drive. I've set them up with as much wealth

as they want to achieve in their life, not a handout.

And I tell this to my kids, and all the time. I might

not leave you money, but I will leave you with a future.

That's more important. Now when I say I'm a little bit of a hypocrite, I

talk about being present. I catch myself all the time

like this. My kids are around and I'm like, hold on, I'm

posting. I catch myself though. That's the

important part, the realization when you're violating the thing that you

shouldn't be violating. So I do have to tell myself because I'm

human, put the phone down, the comment can wait, be

present, be there for your child, but it's the catch

that we need. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. There's gosh. Two thoughts popped

in my mind as you were talking there. 1 Was,

you know, that, that want that you mentioned versus what we Seek.

And I went back to a conversation. We were, my wife and I were with

our grown son in Vegas not too long Go, and we were sitting

there having lunch and it was they were actually Prepping. They were about to have

the formula one race there. So I thought that was cool, but I made a

comment to them that I think I love the

thought Of Vegas more than the actual

application of Vegas. I don't know if you know what I mean by that. It's

like Vegas Seems like it should be so cool,

but yet I'm there, and I'm kinda Go. And I think there's a lot of

things like that in life. I think we love the thought of Some

things, but then when we actually apply them or try and we

realize maybe that was somebody else's dream or somebody else's goal or something that

we thought You mentioned marketing. I think we are so

susceptible to being swayed and influenced

and listen, I do marketing. You're a business guy. You've done

marketing, so we may be part of the problem, but maybe at

least talking about it will Help people overcome it. But then the second thing you

mentioned, which is related, are these devices that were

on. And you are You're of the age to remember

before barely before internet. I'm

definitely of the age to remember, but How challenging

is this conversation we're having with all of

the access we have to information and the notifications and the comments and

the, you're very active on LinkedIn. We're active on a few channels and

things like that. How challenging is it and how tough is it when we're

Trying to convey that to our children. You've got 3 girls and I've got grown

children. It is seemingly

impossible. So I was alive. I was born in 1980. I didn't have

a computer until 1998. My 1st year in college, I worked hard to buy

it. I remember it well. He

Life seemed simpler back then, but I think in

retrospect, when you do reflect and nostalgia,

It always seems simpler, right? I love being

so connected. I genuinely love

LinkedIn. I I'm I'm a staunch

believer in the power of networking for business

Always. I'm not a fan of other social media. Yes. I do it.

But I delegate those tasks away because I don't love that, so I let other

people handle that side. But when it comes to LinkedIn,

that is the new style of networking. That is your storefront. That is your

banner. That is your Awning. That is how you attract your

brand. I do it because for me, it's therapeutic. I don't have a call to

action. If you like me, sure. Follow me. Cool. If you like the message,

Comment, share. Cool. If you don't, leave a comment.

Cool. Ignore me. Awesome. I'm doing it for me.

But by doing it for me, I'm aligning with other people that can relate

to me. I will say that life is more complex

because of it. It does require me to be glued to a

device. I spend no less than 2 hours a day, collectively,

on LinkedIn. It is a lot. But it's because

I enjoy it. And, really, you shouldn't

do anything you don't enjoy doing with

exceptions. Growing a business, Somebody's gotta work all

those jobs you don't wanna do at 1st. Do Tim. Learn your experience,

but eventually hire and delegate that away. For me, if

I love LinkedIn, that's my medicine. That's what I will do. If

you don't love LinkedIn, hire somebody to do it if you're

growing a business. Let someone else manage it, but don't

neglect it. But, yeah, that device,

It's tough to deal with. And now I see the problem with my kids having

these devices. The one thing they don't have though is they won't have

phones for a while. Good parent, bad parent. One thing I've

learned also don't tell people how to parent. There's no right answer. You're going to

screw your kids up regardless, but I will

not be getting them the iPhone. I'll be getting them when

they turn 10, some device that will allow them to communicate

with me, They're friends, right? A safer

device. I don't want them on social media the

way that The world has been on social media. There's lots of negative. Now

can I block them from everything? No. They're kids. They'll sneak out of the house.

Great. I'll celebrate that. But The best I can do

to keep them out of the challenges of today, I'm gonna try

to do that. Don't practice what I preach, or do

something like that. Well, I think that

part of it and I, you went down a path. I was about to ask

question I'm glad you let us know. I'm assuming Sorry. My ADHD takes me on

multiple paths sometimes. I I think we're tracking

because you answered the question I was about To ask. So we're

either something's going on here, which is nice. But

one of the things, I was gonna ask the ages Of your

children and I've already met Coraline. Cause I listened in

on a podcast episode where you took a hike with her.

So, she was she was 4 at the time. I don't know if she's still

that age, and then it sounds like you've got almost 10 year olds. And and

I guess the question I was Go to ask what you sort of asked, I'll

answer it. I'll, I'll kind of address it here is, is

how do we, How do we convey

that there needs to be a certain degree of maturity to deal with

these things? And I do want to say this At Tim, I'm not sure that

I have the maturity or a lot of what we would call adults

have the maturity with these tools that we have. So I do want to say

it's not necessarily an age Tim. How do you convey that? This is not a

how to parent. This is almost how to communicate what type of

information you need to have access to. Yeah. So

it is an age thing actually, because adults are far worse

than children because we always hide behind the I'm the

adult. I as a business therapist, I

coach a lot of partnerships, and I see a lot of fighting like

children, and it is Comical to me because,

granted, kids don't always listen to their parents,

but eventually, you can connect with them. Take that for what

it's worth, but, hey, we don't, we're not the best representation

sometimes, but what success should be.

When it comes to parenting, I get it wrong all the Tim. And

I celebrate that because I try to do things differently than my parents

did. My parents were strict at the time growing

up. My dad's favorite sport was yelling. You know, I'd walk

into a room. He would tell me to shut up before I even said anything.

Now he's the happiest, greatest person on earth. I don't even recognize him. It's

fantastic. But I turned out all right. I

like the person. I love the person I am. I love that I turned out

that way. So I try to learn from those lessons. I yell at my kids

too much. We all do, but I catch myself now.

And now when I think I'm about to yell, I don't, I take my deep

breath because that's what I tell people. Take your box breathing in for

4, hold it for 4 out for 4 Tim your heartbeat lines up with your

breathing. I do that all the time. I walk away now. It's

really just trying to be a better parent, but I'm going to screw it

up to some level. So if I do yell at my kids,

which Over the past few months has been infrequent since I've been very, I've

been in a happy place and enjoying life far more than ever before.

I will actually sit down with them and say, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have yelled

at you. And I tried to talk to them like they're adults,

because Tim, if you and I were having a conversation, I yelled at you. You'd

probably try to put me in my place. Right. Or get me to

stop yelling at you as an adult or in reality, I wouldn't yell

at you. So why is it okay for me to yell at my children? It's,

again, it's a self reflection that I'm screwing this up. And, as

parents, we're the hardest on ourselves because We don't always practice what we

preach, and we do revert back to that parental

unit that we had at the teachings. It it's all

just about being human. And I think today, kids are more advanced than ever

before. My kids do have Ipads. They're far

smarter than I was at their age. I was watching Sesame Street at

6, and they're watching YouTube. And they're telling me

about science experiments and NaCl is Sodium Chloride.

6 years old. I'm like, A, B, C?

Right? So I don't punish

technology, I don't prevent them from having technology, but I

try my best to police with technology, and that goes back to the phone

situation. They have the iPad and they'll eventually have a

communication device. Do I want them to be like me always on the

phone like this? Absolutely not. That's what I'm policing and

parenting against. They're going to see all the negative. They're gonna see that

life can be an ugly, sad place, or I

can coach them into turning that ugliness off. I'll allow myself to

wander in an ADHD moment for a second. A 120

days ago, and I'm posting about this, I think, next Seek. A Under 20 days

ago, I turned off the news completely. I don't watch the news. No

one ever wins with the news. I did that. I did that 9 I did

that 90 days ago. I did it October 1st. Go

October 1st, I turned up the news and it was very, it's fascinating.

What's going on with me mental? But go ahead. You tell me what's going on

with you, but I think this could be extremely valuable to

someone listening in. So I am Happier.

I don't engage in negative thoughts as

much or as frequently anymore. The world is

seemingly totally within my control. I am

not peppered with constant negative feedback and

marketing because the realization is the news is there to heighten your one

emotion that will get you glued, fear. Fear is

our oldest emotion, and it is what Keeps us glued and

focused. Running away from the bear, hearing

the bear, hearing the lion, smelling the lion, That's

what keeps our attention, and that is what the news is there for, to sell

advertising. So I turned it off. I'm not an idiot. I know what's going

on in the world. I know the world's affairs, but I am not constantly

seeing the negative. Because I came to this realization a 120 years

ago that we actually live in the best

time ever in humanity. You don't think

so? Okay. I'm gonna prove it to you. In the

1600, if I cursed somebody in the royal

family, I would lose my tongue. If I stole a loaf of bread from my

starving family, I would lose my hand. If I cheated on my wife, I

would lose my If I told the

king that he should die, I would lose my life. I would be threatened by

the rack, the wheel, the pair, the gauntlet, anything that would torture

me a brazen bull. I'd be set on fire or hung at a noose.

I don't have to worry about that, especially as an American. I I can tell

you I like you, I don't like you. I can say our president is great,

I can say our president sucks. There's a limit to the amount of

freedom, of course, But I don't have to fear

losing my life, and I have freedoms. This is

the best time ever. It is not the best time for everyone in their

personal situation. But when you collectively look at the fact that we

are alive and we can do whatever we want, It's a

pretty damn great time. So why would I allow some

squawk box to tell me that it's not the

best time to harm my personality

and my future and my needs, wants, and desires. I just turned it

off. That's the power I have, and I've been really happy since.

Yeah. It's amazing to me. Were you, would you consider yourself

addicted to information and news prior to that?

I'm a huge nurse. I love information. I love news.

I love the world events. I let me put a D there. I loved all

that. I got Sucked into it. I wanted to see how the world was gelling

together or not. I'd wanted to feel like I could solve the problems, but I

couldn't. I love information. When I was viewing

TikTok all too frequently, which I also got rid of when I was viewing

it, I would, My feed was all this nerdy science stuff or

chemistry stuff or hiking things. I just absorbed knowledge

and I loved that. I love learning. But now since I've turned off the negative,

I've only focused on positive. I've been able to learn more about our

positive brain, our positive mentality. I've been able to do more. I've

been able to hike more. I've been able to write more. My vision has

become clearer, and I know this all sounds kooky, because guess what? It

is. But I'm choosing the way that I want to

feel every day. And whenever asked,

I don't mean to rub it in, but it sometimes sounds like that. My friends

ask me all the time, how am I doing? And I say, I'm living the

best day of my life every single day. And

then I hear some other people say, oh, today, I'm miserable. K. Misery is a

choice, so is positivity. Sounds kooky,

but it's a choice. People don't realize they choose to

be miserable. Yeah. There's real circumstances and situations that

cause us to be miserable. Yeah. Life Experience has caused us

to be miserable, but you could turn certain things off. I'm not telling

you to turn off the fact that, you know, cousin Jimmy just passed away suddenly.

Yeah. Be sad about that. Be human. Of course. But in a few

weeks, you should mourn and move on and not dwell and celebrate the fact

that Cousin Jimmy's not here, and maybe he should be here, but he's not. So

let's move on. He would want us to move forward. Sorry, cousin Jimmy. I didn't

mean to be insensitive. Yeah. The neat thing about that

is that I'm recognizing it's very similar. I feel like I'm

looking in a mirror, hearing my voice because I Was

trying to convince myself that I needed all this information for

what I did for my business or for financial decisions or

for Business decisions for the executive coaching that I do

probably just to be able to communicate and converse with people.

Sounds like you found the same thing. No, I don't. I don't need that. In

fact, I think it was jading my mind a

little bit, and I'm older than you are. I we would have hoped we would

have figured this out sooner, but I was looking at the world through a

lens that was clouded by what other people wanted me to think about it. Media,

we can call it news. You actually alluded to this. It's really more media

In that they're selling something, and they have to keep us attached to it and

things like that. We don't really have pure

news much anymore. I, I think it's been phenomenal.

And I, I actually am on a

similar path, more creativity, writing

more. I enjoy my conversations more. I have

less cynicism, Darren. I was finding

myself being more cynical. You look at the political structure, and you just

I don't care what side you're on. You're just like, oh, man. This is a

mess. We got troubles. So, anyway, that that's cool. So that was a sidebar. Didn't

really plan that, but I think that could be some of the

most valuable things that we mentioned to folks is cut some

stuff out, get rid of it. I I wanna shift a little bit

here, and I want to go back a

little bit to talk about your, what we'll call your journey, your success story,

And a few highlights here, and I think you listed this out on a post.

You you had achieved so much, started a company, scaled it over

50 employees, got acquired by a Fortune 500 Company,

but you had this Seek, dark feeling of irrelevance.

And, I guess, talk more about

Kind of what led up to that, because, obviously, you had a pretty good

run, I'm guessing, if you scaled a company, sold it.

And were you feeling good about yourself during that Tim, or did you have any

clues that you didn't have it all together Before then?

Yeah. So, I started the business because I

always knew I wanted to start a business. That was always my thing. I learned

from my grandfather. I went to university. I

had a job, an internship. I stayed at that company for multiple

years. I learned as much as I could. I used that job

as the best education I have ever had.

Right. I learned how to be an adult, a professional, how

corporate structure works. I learned the ins and outs of

being a business person in that sense. And then one day I had my

insane entrepreneurial cliched spark in the middle of the night and

said, And I had my business name and I had my,

my motto and I just ran with it, created a really quick business

plan, went into the office the next day, I told my

boss, Hey, I'll give you 6 months and I'm out. And his exact

words, if I may par I'll say his exact

words. Sorry for the profanity. He said, it's about fucking time,

kid. Because they always heard me say that one day I'm gonna

own my business. And that to me is was a great example of

what a great leader and a mentor should do. He could have

convinced me to stay or tried, but he knew there was no use. He even

said, I'm not even gonna convince you. I know it's not gonna work. Right? He

was telling me I'm supportive. Here you go. Then a whole bunch

of can'ts came because it was turning into 2008,

horrible time to start a business, so people thought. And I heard

the, you can't start a business in this economy.

You can't, can't, can't, can't, can't. And I'm always a person that said,

I'm gonna prove you wrong, so I sought out to prove everyone

wrong. Starting a business in tough economic is

a phenomenal idea. While you're at 0, your would

be or should be competition is too worried about protecting their own

assets. They're not paying attention to you. That allows you to

creep up unnoticed. That also allows

you to get the benefit of a bad economy. What do I mean? I was

in telecom. I needed to work with the world of Verizon and AT

and T, these big monster companies. They would have never spoken

to me in a great economy, but they did in a

shitty economy. Anyway, Fast forward. I loved

that business. I loved working with people. I loved inspiring people. I

loved being a leader. I loved doing all

of the jobs and all the tasks that most people wouldn't love doing.

It was never about making money. It was always about the

freedom of doing what I loved and wanted to do

predominantly. And then one day, it started becoming about

money, and that's when I was a little bit less

excited. I was more excited about the want

Then the reality of what I was doing. And when I finally started

realizing that the market is changing, the economy's changing, my

risk Tolerance is decreasing. My need, my insatiable

need for more money was ever growing. That's when we

decided to sell the business because I knew we were becoming detrimental

to the growth. Sold the business in 2018.

I stayed on because I wasn't ready to call myself Tired. I was an

employee of the company. I was the president of, the company for about a

year. Unfortunately, the company went into bankruptcy due to a

lawsuit that they lost. Not because of my company that

they acquired and Create us, but working in a bankrupt company was

not fun, not exciting. And I looked at it as I don't have to do

this and I'm not gonna do anything that's not exciting to

me. Took my exit. And now it all sounds like poor rich

guy. That's when I realized the thing that I always wanted

that, that money, that, that dream of everyone

was not really that exciting. I started worrying about

money and losing it more than ever before because I wasn't

making the same income anymore. I wasn't replacing what I'm spending.

So that really weighs on you. I started realizing that I'm this

retired dude. That's picking up his kids and dropping them off at school

and then hanging out with his wife all the time. Don't get

me wrong. That's could be fun Tim your wife tells

you to go out and get a job because you're annoying as hell. So then

I started getting depressed about it, and that's when I realized

chasing money is not the answer.

The reality of where you wanna find your happiness, it's

the intersection of chasing a lifestyle

achievement. I correct people all the Tim. When you tell me you want to

make $1,000,000. Okay. You are saying that you

want to make $1,000,000 right now in this moment, When you think $1,000,000

is a lot of money, but when you make $1,000,000, you

realize your lifestyle changed, and it's no longer a lot of money.

So some people will inspire you to reset the goal. Great. But

you're resetting the goal to a inflection where you're upset

and depressed about the fact you achieved your goal and it didn't bring you the

joy or happiness or want and need that you needed or wanted.

So what I'd tell you is set a goal. You wanna have a van life

or live in an RV or afford an RV? Boom. That's a real

lifestyle goal. Work really hard, put in the effort,

put in the, the, the, the time to earn the

ability to buy that RV, Then reset

and reset and reset. Keep driving forward, set up lifestyle

goals. You want to own a company, boom, own a company.

You want to, you want to have 50 employees work really

hard to be able to afford 50 employees, do it right.

Make sure that you're growing a business properly. But set up

goals. You wanna surf every Friday afternoon and not go to the

office? That's an easy one. Go out and surf. Do

it. Seek up a lifestyle, because that will bring you more happiness,

than just wanting and setting goals for money and money alone.

Go, yeah, I hit a really bad depression. COVID hit.

It exacerbated that per that depression. I, like everyone else, was thought

the world was going to end, although I did not wash my groceries.

That wasn't that crazy. No offense to crazy people.

But it did exacerbate the

issue. That's when I went on a hike, My brother took me

out, it clicked, I loved hiking. I took another hike with a

friend where I told Tim, I feel purposeless.

I don't feel relevant anymore. I'm 40 years

old. I'm fully retired. I don't need to work

ever again. And the thing that I needed the most was feeling

relevant purpose. And my friend turned to me and he

said, Darren, man, you are extremely relevant and

stop tying relevancy to work. You're a

great father. You're a good husband. Assuming I was a good

husband. I think I am. You have all of this

energy tied into something that brings you passion, where you can inspire

others. And once I got back to my Jeep, that's where I took I came

from. That's my relevancy. I'm no longer depressed about

it. You don't make money from podcasting unless you're Joe Rogan.

You make purpose. You make relevancy from podcasting.

You align with people. You network with people. You know how rewarding it

is to hear someone. If I'm in the center of town, Hey, I heard your

podcast. I really liked it. That to me is all the money I need.

That's the currency Purpose.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. That's nice. I wanna talk about, I wanna talk about the podcast

shortly, but I wanna back up a little bit because I'm trying to, I'm thinking

of parallel paths here when we were going through your

company journey. It seems like it was about a 10 year 10 year journey.

And if I'm doing my math correctly, help out here.

About halfway into the company journey is

when you had children. I don't know when you got married along

the way there, but probably Somewhere around there. There was about halfway

in, and I guess I want to to kinda ask,

was there any tension When all of

a sudden it wasn't just about Darren and your wife, and all of a

sudden there were children involved. And I know you're, I think

you're in New York, so you're in the city, so there's probably commutes involved,

and there's a lot of time involved with startup and things like

that. Talk about The parallels between what was going on in your

life at some point there, I may have the math right. You could correct me

if you need to. Yeah. It's pretty close. So we had the business exactly

10 years to the day. You put good out there, your luck circles. I

started the business December 19, 2007. We sold it or signed a

stock purchase agreement on December 19, 2017.

Closed the deal in March. We didn't pick the last Create. The

company buying us did. So it's just put good out there and

good comes back. Yeah. It was about the midway point. I got

married in 2011. We started the business in

2007, 1st day in 2008. Go, yeah, midway point

for kids. It was actually great. No tension. I did live

in the city, so that commute was really a subway Way ride from

downtown Manhattan to the upper west side, so about 40 minute. My

wife, Christie, she's amazing. She would take the kids out in

their double stroller and Pushed them to the train station, the subway station, and

we would meet. There was no real tension there. The tension

that I would have felt was more when we moved out of the city and

became a suburbanite family. We moved to New Jersey.

Yeah, my attention really came from the fact that my wife was no longer

In this big city, couldn't take the stroller out and just

walk around and feel that energy from New York. She was now

stuck inside of a home with these twin kids. There was some tension

there, of course, but I never had pressure from her. There

was no pressure of of we need more, or you should do

more until after I sold the business where she told me to

get the hell out of the house and get a job. But no, I

do. We've always had this understanding from the day I met her. I met her

when I started the business. We were 3 months in, we had no clients.

I told her I was a CEO it sound cool? And it worked.

Yeah. It's a good story that she tells. She thought that I was this

big time CEO and I was in debt.

But, but no, there was no tension, but we started off

saying that, oh, I don't need a girlfriend. I don't want

a girlfriend. It was a little nicer than that, but it was understood that the

business has to come first. If we're gonna make a relationship work, then

the business has to be in check. That balance that I've always been looking for,

I was heavily balanced towards the business, which would have set my

future up. But by having a very understanding

person, I met the right person. She allowed me to not

have to be so present for the relationship. So it worked

out right person. I wouldn't say I had that much pressure from her

ever, except to get out of the house. What's

tougher running a company that's got 50 employees

or being the quote unquote head or

father In a household with 3 young girls

and your wife compare and contrast.

It does depend. Everyone's situation is unique.

Me personally, I'm an engineer by trade. I believe

in people process and product to Steal that from Marcus Lemonis, but I believe in

the process aspect mostly. So running a 50 person company is

no different than a 100 person company, Very different than a 5 or 10

person company, but you grow your processes and you have management and structure and

an org chart and then good leadership. You can take a day out of the

office and you have lots of coverage, and things won't break. Being a

father is the hardest job on the planet. Being a mother It's

probably harder. The expectations we put on ourselves to

just not screw it up is constant and daunting. These little

Mutant children running around will not listen to you at all.

It doesn't matter that you know what you're talking about, or you have inspirational,

wisdom or Experiential wisdom. They don't

listen. That's frustrating to a rational adult. Those times where I

am yelling at my kids, it Feels like I'm the only way I can get

them to stop running with scissors is to yell at them. So now being a

father is there are moments where it just sucks. Absolutely

sucks. And that's where you have to bring yourself back to what's the

purpose here. Tiny brain less than the conversation. You

have to bring yourself to their level. And I've learned that too many times, and

I keep learning that. Yeah. Being a parent is

every Create. I'm also, I'm a Georgia tech process. I'm a systems

engineer, industrial and systems engineer from Georgia tech. I think you're our it.

And what's interesting is There are many things in

life that you can systematize. I am

not sure that marriage and Running

children is something that is systemizable. I don't

know if that's a word. I may have just made a word up there. Sure.

One of the word. I understand. You know what I mean? One of the reasons

I was that up is that our daughter, our grown daughter, has 2

daughters, and I was thinking that actually might be some, you know, good wisdom

for our son-in-law, Hunter, Who, they are, about to

work on having their next child. And they're looking like they're

just cranking out the girls. It looks like they're just having

it. Oh. Having girls, which is awesome. If there's actual statistics

on that. But, yeah, 3 girls for me. I'm done. I'm outnumbered. They're not

not there yet, but pretty soon there'll be teenagers. And, you will see me

hiking a lot more. I know there's a lot of women

out there that hate me for that comment, but it's true. Gonna be rough in

my house. Right. Well, if if you wanna say on in

another time, I'll give you my advice for when all of a sudden the dating

begins that I had a daughter that we had a couple rules that

worked out real well. We'll share that in another time. But but now the,

the wisdom from that. You're gonna need some help there. Alright,

Darren. So a lot of people get confused

when they hear That someone didn't exit.

Their bank account obviously is doing very

well, but yet They feel

irrelevant. They feel depressed. They're they don't feel good about themselves.

They can't equate that because there's a massive amount of people out there

that think If they had a boost, if they just added

1 0 in their bank account, much less 2, 3,

4, or 5 zeros in the bank account, That their

life would be awesome. Before we dive into

the I took a hike, and I wanna get some wisdom from the conversations

you've been having there, I'd like to talk about

money because there are a lot of people that would

say, why is this guy struggling? If he

just went through what most people in the world would

love to go through. So talk more about that. I'm

human. That's the answer. We're human.

We always Seek. We want. Right. It's

the topic of a lot of this conversation. The reality is I

grew up in a time where my dad would always say, you don't talk about

money. And that is, That always perplexed me. Why? What's wrong

with talking about money? Now it seems like every influencer on the planet talks about

money and how much they make and how much they wanna make. They're all miserable.

K? Because when you do have an exit

event, a successful event, or you win the lottery,

Negative things start to happen. 1, if you're not reapplying

yourself and working hard again, to make more, Generate

more money, wealth, or profit, you start going backwards.

That is a very scary situation, especially at a young age to retire.

I Hired at 38 years old.

Yeah. That's a scary situation. Is that my final hurrah

at such a young age. It's also the realization that, sure, I could buy a

lot of things, but those things, those materials didn't make me happy. They

didn't fill that void. The reality

of money is it's a control mechanism to get

you to want to do more for

whatever you're doing, whether it's working for somebody or working

with somebody. It's the government's way of controlling you,

not conspiracy. That's How it is, you control the population by giving a

drug. The money is the drug. You realize you get

the drug. It doesn't fill the void. That's what it is.

That's when you have to pivot and make purpose. That's when you have to

do more with your life than just the drug.

So for me, that was my experience. And it's a real

experience and I'm very honest with it. Now, if you're gonna ask me, would I

trade it in? Hell no. I liked having a whole bunch of things I don't

have to do. I don't have to worry about this or that because I had

an exit event, but I earned the exited event by

taking risks, working hard and applying

myself, doing things that many people would be afraid to do

with their career or their success. Taking those risks.

You have absolutely heard this. We've all heard this. The

lottery Winders, it's a curse. There is a

there was a show on Netflix about what happens when you win the

lottery. Well, cousin Jimmy wants a handout.

Right? It's a curse when all of a sudden

your lifestyle changes overnight because

now all the things you couldn't afford, you can Didn't

fix the problem. There was a Yale School of Management study

on what exiting entrepreneurs should do. And

the net result is the majority of exited

Seek, business owners, entrepreneurs should not spend a

dime in their money, Should not change their life, should not buy the

boat, plane, train, automobile, or house for

at least a year, To allow yourself to stay normal, to keep

your baseline of spending and lifestyle normalized.

Because once you start spending, you start emptying that void

or emptying that pool. And that's when the depression sets in. This

is not abnormal. Unfortunately, That study was

sent to me way too late. But I experienced it, so now I get to

teach it to everyone else. Work hard, make

money if that's what You want, but realize that's not going to

solve your problems. It'll check off a whole bunch of don'ts.

But anyone can make money. That's part of the other realization.

I thought I would never be hired again. Well, I was right. No one was

ever gonna hire me again. I have too much experience For certain levels,

I'm too expensive to hire, but for the bigger companies, I'm

too inexperienced, so I'm right in the gap of not hireable. Right?

I'm not afraid to speak my mind, and I don't need this job. That's what

an employer thinks. That's scary for an employer. So I had

to start a business therapy practice to help other business owners climb

out from under that rock that they created. How do I

do that? With experiential wisdom, knowledge, and teaching.

Right? Going through all the life cycles of a business, or going through the same

emotions that a business owner is going through to help them out.

Purpose, yet again. I realized I could start another business

and make more money. Everybody has the

choice to make more money. Now, if you're sitting behind

a Seek, scratching your head and saying, I haven't gotten a raise in 2

years, k. You're probably not going to get that raise if you

don't ask for it or demonstrate the value of why you

should get it. And if you don't like the answer because you were told, no,

you can't have a raise, it is a 100% within your control to

apply for another job, or start a business, Or

even a side hustle. You can make more money.

It's a resource. Anyone can make more. Could you make 1,000,000

overnight? I wouldn't. I wouldn't try,

because it's a nightmare. Can you make a lot of money over a

period of time, putting in hard work and effort. Yeah. Yeah, you

can. But hopefully you're hearing the message And you're

starting a business or doing a side hustle or starting a new job because you

love what you do, you have a clear vision, it brings you purpose and passion,

Money will follow them. Guaranteed.

Guaranteed that you will make a lot of money in your life If you're

following purpose and passion, and have a clear vision, and

follow a process, and are a great person, Other people

will wanna work with you alongside you. Forget about 4. They

work with you, and then they will help you hit your Go.

And you'll make money. Simple formula. Hey, Darren,

you, you just have answered this, but I wanna ask this specific question.

How would you define success today

versus how did Darren define success in 2008

or 2002, 3 when you came out of school

or something like that. Just contrast, 20 years or 15,

20 years ago versus Today, I think you've answered it, but I'd like to

I'd like it to be concise more concise here. So I asked

this question on every episode of I Took A Hike. Are you successful and how

do you define success? So somebody's been listening. So if you asked me in

2008, I would have given you the answer that I thought you wanted to hear.

Success is tied to money. I'd be very wealthy.

Today, my answer is 1 and only 1 answer. Success

is balance. That's it. Balance

between health, happiness, in my case,

family, then wealth. Right.

Education. It's all about being that fulcrum

balance, because I can tell you if I'm working every single day and I'm never

seeing my kids and I die the next day. I will be filled with regret

right before that dying moment, just like the old man on his deathbed.

Right? But I can tell you if I Go the work and

I'm not making any money and I'm not generating enough to feed my

family, I'm not balanced. I'm miserable. I'm

not healthy. Right? Yes. I'm there for my family, but

am I really, if I don't take care of my health and I'm

constantly Seek, and it's within my control to get

healthy again. Then I'm not in balance, and I'm not

successful. Success is not money. Success

is the balance between everything in your life.

Success is walking away every day saying that

was a good day. Maybe not every day, but the majority of the

days in the year, You should feel like it was worth it.

And if you don't, you're just wasting that life. You're wishing

it away. I used I'm a I used to fall prey

to this all the time. I'll be happy when I get the job out of

college. I'll be happy when I go to college. I'll be happy when I get

the promotion. I'll be happy when I, when I, when I I was never

happy. Now, I'm happy. And, yes, there's a lot of

people that can say I'm happy because I don't have to worry about money anymore,

but you're wrong. Worry about money more than I ever did before

until I realized that it's within my control to make that

money. It's a resource. It's not about the money,

about the effort, purpose, and the balance. Long answer.

One word. Yeah. I didn't, but great answer. I think the curse of

we'll call it entrepreneurs, maybe the hustle, The hustle

and grind culture, whatever we could throw it in. I think one of the curses

that we have today is that we have this

Addiction to I'll I'll say 2 things, addiction addiction to more.

And tomorrow we interviewed someone not too long ago, Chris Morof. They said I was

addicted to Tomorrow, and then a few years

ago, we interviewed, Mark Whitaker, who was the basis for that

movie, The Informant that Matt Damon, And he said he was addicted to more.

And and you know what? I recognized myself the same thing and a lot

of the people. That's why they need the business therapists. That's why they need the

coach Is because sometimes we don't recognize it. I

think we think life is there's this destination, this place that we're going to get

to, But really it's this journey. How do

we measure balance? Because I think,

the way we're wired, Darren, the way you and I are wired and a lot

of people listening in is that we will get to this place and we will

look around and we'll get a balanced trophy Or a balance,

a a balance certificate or something, but it it's it

really is something that is not I I don't wanna say it's

not tangible, but how do you know when you're close to it

or getting there or in a place? Is it just

happy days? Days are good?

I mean, we can make a glass trophy for everything. Right? And anything

you'll hear me or you'll see it on my posts. I often mock that because

I was the recipient of media glass trophy. I you will hear me

say a line like, if you're sitting at your Seek, staring at your glass trophy,

wondering where your life went wrong, This message is few,

right? The reality is it is intangible.

My balance is completely than yours, just like my list of success will be

different than yours. For me, it's health first because it's

hard to be happy if you're unhealthy. And sometimes you just get some bad

luck and it sucks. Steve jobs was not a happy person

when he was unhealthy, especially right.

It's if you're not happy, it's hard to be healthy because we do know that

stress raises cortisol levels and that starts eroding

yourselves. Right? So

it's really personal to you. If I ask you, are you having more happy

days than not? If I say, are you healthy? Are you doing things to be

healthy? Are you you don't have to diet. Just eat smaller portions. We're Americans.

We eat too much. Right? I don't eat healthy in any way, shape or form.

Last night I had Wendy's kids, Wendy's. Did I

eat all the Wendy's? No, But I ate Wendy's,

but then maybe tomorrow, a salad for lunch or, something

smaller. So I'm mindful of what I'm eating, but then I go to the gym

every day or I hike, or I go to a boxing class. Why? Because

I love doing it. I'm not going to do something I don't love doing, but

it's balanced. I don't know. There's no number. Just like I said,

how much money is enough? I have a billionaire friend. I ask him, at what

point? When's it enough? And he always says to me, it's never enough, because

it's ego. Sorry to my friend if he's listening to this, but it's

pure ego and greed. Maybe.

Maybe he runs in a pool, a circle of billionaires. They're always taking out their

rulers and measuring. Right? But it might be more.

He just loves winning. He knows he's never going to run out of

money, but he loves winning. Is he happy? Yes,

with that. Is he always present for his family? No. If

I asked him if he's successful, he'll absolutely say yes based on a monetary

definition. But if I was evaluating his life at the pearly

gates, I'd probably say his kids need a little more time with him.

Maybe I won't tell him to tune into this one, but Actually, you know what?

I'm gonna tell Tim this all. Yeah. I was and it's fine. We in invited

me because, I mean, it's measurable. I get it. You can measure That

money piece very easily. It's hard to measure. That's why I asked the question.

It's hard to measure, joy, happiness, Tim with kids. Yeah. You

can measure the hours you're there, but if you got a phone in your hand,

even if you're at the park with them, you know, that's a bit of a

challenge. I wanna transition. Go ahead. I wanna just add this.

Everyone is very different. I am very well aware. There are some

people that hate their kids. I get it. There are moments where

I think it, and sometimes I mutter it. Okay.

Not everyone must be the greatest parent in the world.

This advice isn't for them. Right? So what I'm saying, everything has an

opposite to what I'm saying. These are not fixed

targets for everyone. If you don't like your family and you

consider them the worst thing in the world and you don't wanna fix that, then

that's not your success measure. That's not your balance. I just wanna make sure that

it's understood that I'm not telling you to do something to find purpose

and balance. Do what works for you to find purpose and I think that's the

most powerful thing that, definitely people in our shoes can say

Darren is everyone's success has to be

their own. In other words, you and I could probably sit here

and rattle off 3, 5, 7 steps to do this, blah blah blah, this,

do this, but yet, Those, I'm getting

less dogmatic as I age and mature, and I'm

kinda saying the bottom line is you need to find what works

for you and your balance and your success,

and I'm watching my time here, but I wanna finish up with a few things

here. At some point, Create, who our wives or

our spouses will say our partners are often the ones that

know us best and can give us the guidance the best. At some

point, Create looked at you and either gave you a swift kick or a

gentle hug or a kiss and said, Darren,

You're gonna have to get out and go do something, and you went out and

took a hike. And did you already have what you call now the

business Therapy, brand, I guess I'll call

it that, because it seemed to me like those mesh together that you

know, I took a hike And business therapy sort of go together.

Talk briefly in our last few minutes here about those 2

things, and then we'll wrap up and let people know how they can connect with

you. So Business therapy and I took a hike. Sure. So

after I exited a company that acquired us, I started a consulting

practice, and it was Christie when When I was telling her what I was

doing, she's like, oh, you're like a therapist for business, a business therapist.

So that no looking back, when you get the spark, you run with it. She's

a genius. Far better than I will ever be. And I'm not just saying that

she's very smart. Right? So I had that going,

but that paused completely during COVID so I could focus on

living and life and and not, you know, being eaten by this invisible bug.

The hiking came after that, and I've just applied the things that I've always

Been been doing my whole life. I've always been observant of other people. I

can read people very well, and I pay attention to situations

of emotions and how people engage and interact, and I apply

that to business to help partnerships and business

owners, Like I said, get out from under the rock that they created.

Most challenges in business were created by the inexperience of the

business owner, not an insult. But, if you're a CEO in a

start up company calling yourself CEO, you have no idea what a CEO

does, because a CEO doesn't belong in a start up small

business, A business owner does. The CEO protects

shareholder value for shareholders. Delegates,

elevates. You're a start up business. You don't have that.

You're a business owner. Own a business, grow a business, turn into a

CEO as the business grows. I didn't know that either. I called myself a

CEO. I bought the plaque. It was really cool. High five moment to myself.

I didn't know what a CEO was until I went School to learn

business, to learn how to read a P and L, to learn how to protect

shareholder value. Right? The business therapy that I do

combines all of that experiential wisdom, training, knowledge,

and the emotions of being a business owner, especially the

heightened frustration, anxiety, depression, and pain. Do you enjoy

the I'll call it inspiring and interacting

therapy that you're doing now

more than you did when you were actually applying and head down inside

of a business? Because I do. I really enjoy Being that

outside looking in instead of the businesses and all that I

ran, what how do you look at those? So it's different

timelines. When I was in my twenties thirties, I

loved being finally a CEO. I loved going to the trade shows and

having the meetings and being the person that people would turn to.

Not an ego thing. I just liked being that person at that

time. Now, yes, I love helping other people

win and Seek. I love the inspiration. In fact, I'll say, I effing

love it. I love what I do. I genuinely do it. It's this is not

a huge payday. I don't make Anywhere near what I made as

a business owner and a CEO or as the executive of a of Fortune

500, that were even close. Again, it's not about money. It's

about the purpose and the balance for me. So I genuinely love what I

do. I select my client, not in an elite or arrogant way,

but I work with clients that I know are willing

to grow, are willing to take knowledge and run with

it, are willing to make changes. I love their businesses. I see

opportunity in their businesses. That's advice I give to

all my clients is You always wanna select a consultant, a

coach, business therapist, a mentor that doesn't need

you as a client. If they need you as a client, they're

already giving you the wrong advice, because they're gonna bill you per hour and try

to get as much out of you. That relationship will last the average of

5 months. You wanna find someone that doesn't need you as

a client. They want to work with you. They want to help

you and vice versa. And that is a recipe for

success. I've always had business mentors, coaches in my life.

That's when I share some of their knowledge and I pass it. I pay it

forward to my clients. Yeah. That's very common

in the coaching world is that people are coding, Coaching for the

dollar. And I think it compromises quite a bit. So

that's I really love you sharing that. Darren, Where can

people connect with you? And then I've got 1 more question before we wrap up.

So give all your coordinates so that people can listen in. We'll include it down

below, but Where can people connect with you? Go I love

the coordinated approach. I took a hike .com, or you can listen

to it on Spotify podcasts Or Apple Podcasts or

wherever you get your podcasts. LinkedIn,

it's Darren Mas. You can find me there. I post Seek

days, sometimes 7 days a week. I love it. If you like it, follow,

share, comment. I always engage. I always reply. Sometimes

Tim takes longer due to the volume, but I will always reply.

Businesstherapygroup.com, all of the above and some.

Very good. Yeah. I love what you're doing over LinkedIn. I think that's what drew

me to you. That's where I was saying, okay. He's talking some of our

language over there. We need to connect. Darren, we are seek, go Create.

Those 3 words, and we'll let you choose 1, Seek, go or Create, which do

you choose that resonates the most with you right now and

why Seek? Because when

you stop learning is the moment you are dying, and I have

experienced that part, and I am ready to continue to

seek. Awesome. Darren

Mast, thank you for joining us here at Go Create. I highly recommend

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