David:

[0:00] Today, it's my pleasure to have with me Dana Nagard, professional counselor

David:

[0:04] and licensed therapist. She also works with single women to help them build strong faith-driven relationships. And she's the owner of Christian Comfort Counseling, three Cs. That's kind of tricky. Dana, welcome to Redeeming Business Today.

Dana:

[0:19] Thanks, David. I'm really happy to be here.

David:

[0:21] Yeah. And so, Dana, what is one way you believe we can honor God in our business that others may not know about?

Dana:

[0:30] All right, that's a fabulous question. So I think by every day as we, such as if we drive into work or if we're at home before we get on our computers, is to invite in the Holy Spirit to be our co-pilot that day and to ask him like, guard my mouth, right? That's very important. And I think another great one is to ask the Holy Spirit to, would you please reveal to me what this person's intentions are? It can maybe you're going to be hiring someone or maybe you're looking for a job, right? Are they going to bless you? Are they going to betray you? I think that's important to ask. Or if you're simply going into a meeting, and I think it's also helpful to ask the Holy Spirit to help you bless the other people. And for, especially if you work in some place that's secular, is Lord, if you want there to be an opening for us to talk about you, you make it happen and then I'll step through it.

David:

[1:26] Yeah, very good. That's excellent. Excellent. Thanks. So you are in the therapist realm, the psychological realm. How did that start? What got you interested in that throughout your life?

Dana:

[1:38] Well, it's funny because I went to school to take to study psychology because I just thought it was interesting. But I didn't have the wherewithal to understand at that point, you have to be hireable. And what am I going to do with that degree? And so I thought back to when I was in high school, I was blessed to be at a public school that had psychology as an offering. And the teacher was wonderful. And there were so many insights I gained. And I realized how much faith could be applied to psychology. So I switched then to be an education major. And I taught high school psychology. And it was so much fun. I taught regular level, advanced placement. I even taught at the international baccalaureate level, which is way up here. And it was just so wonderful to see these kids' minds expand. And because I am a Christian, I brought that flavor to everything, but just used, couched it in more secular language. And it was such a great experience. And I had parents come to me and ask me therapeutic techniques. And I would look around and I was like, I'm not a therapist. I'm just a psychology teacher. So I would tell them, the book says this related to whatever they're asking me. And they would come back and say, Dana, that worked. And I was like, oh, okay, wow, that's pretty cool. It actually works. And then I really felt at that point, God leading me into a second career because I taught for 16 years to become a licensed professional counselor. So I've been that since 2012.

David:

[3:08] Okay. So it was just a gradual thing that way. That's neat. Yeah. Very neat. Thank you. Very good.

David:

[3:14] So we had talked earlier about attachment theory and with relationships. Explain, what is attachment theory?

Dana:

[3:22] So attachment theory is who, it goes back to our childhood. So whoever were the main caregivers, it could have been mom or dad, it could have been grandparents, foster system, whatever that situation was. And it's how those adults attach to us as children. When we cried, did they come to us? or were we like you know you heard years ago about romanian orphanages when you go in you think there'd be this cacophony of you know all these kids crying no it was pretty quiet why they learned after a while hey if i cry no one comes over here because there simply weren't enough workers and there were so many children so they fell into learned helplessness what's the point i might as well just lie here and be sad on my own and those children then had failure to thrive. But when our parents attend to our needs, and it takes us quite a while as children to start getting manipulative. Hey, if I scream, my parents come running and then I laugh at them. You know, if you're a parent, your kid has done that to you. But when they're little, they don't have that ability. And trust is formed in the first four months of life. And so if we have a secure attachment, then we're likely to securely attach to a future spouse, bosses, our children, and so forth. But if we have an insecure attachment, we're going to really struggle and suffer a lot in life unnecessarily. And there are three different types of insecure attachment.

David:

[4:46] Okay. So even as a young, I know kids aren't manipulating me, but I've had a lot of children and from very get go, I think they know what they're doing. When they cry, they want to get held or fed or whatever. So I know what they're doing. But you're saying that as parents, how you relate to them, how you take care of them at an early age affects them later on in life.

Dana:

[5:10] Yes, because if every time my newborn, my son's there now, but when he was newborn, when he would cry, I would go to him because that's his only way of saying, my bottom hurts because you need to put some diaper cream on me. My tummy hurts. I'm hungry. I have something poking me. I'm too hot. I'm too cold. And so that's why babies are so darn cute. because if not, we'd probably lose our minds because they're exhausting there a lot, right? And so that is how a baby communicates. And after a while as a parent, and for the listeners who haven't had children yet, God willing, you'll get to, you'll start to notice a difference in their cries. Oh, that's the hungry cry. That's right, that's the, you know, whatever cry. So if you go to your children at the beginning, and even if you don't know what's wrong at the moment, if you're still doing that, you know, sing-songy, hey, it's okay, what's going on? The child's brain says, oh, I'm suffering and someone cares. So that's how it works at the beginning.

David:

[6:11] Okay. And so obviously we want to have people caring for us. And so you're saying if we do not have people caring for us,

David:

[6:20] that affects us later on in life. So in relationships, like people dating who are going to get married, what kind of things are flags, you might say, to somebody who has an attachment issue or not attachment issue?

Dana:

[6:33] No, that's a great question. So let's say that there's a single person in there. Let's say it's a woman and she's dating a guy, okay? If she has avoidance issues, that's one of those three types, then she's probably going to feel more distant from any kind of emotional intimacy. I'm not talking about physical intimacy. And she's going to be hyper independent to an extreme degree that almost, I don't need anyone. I can do everything on my own. Well, no one's an island, and we know God built us to be in community with each other. And people that are avoidant, they're going to suppress their emotions. So if I have a client and I ask them, wow, that sounded like a really tough situation you went through, and there were so many aspects to it, how did you feel during that? Because they have not mentioned a single feeling. A lot of times they'll say, I don't know.

Dana:

[7:24] And they're not being evasive. They really don't know. If a person has a more ambivalent attachment style, then that person, they're going to crave that closeness, but then at the same time, they're going to fear it because they fear abandonment. So they want this, but the whole time they're thinking, you're going to leave me, which is why they constantly ask for reassurance. Do I look pretty? Do you really like me? Do you really, really like me? That sort of thing. And then the last one is disorganized. This person doesn't know if they're coming or going. They come towards you and you think, oh, this is lovely, and they back away and you're like, wait, what just happened? And then they come towards you and they back away. And that is due to trauma. And it could be trauma that happened at home. It could be trauma they witnessed because there was an explosion outside. It can be from all sorts of things.

David:

[8:11] Okay. List them all three again.

Dana:

[8:14] Okay. So the insecure, it's avoidant. Okay. So they're avoiding attachment. They're the people that are very standoffish. Then the next one is ambivalent. They want the closeness, but they fear abandonment. So they have to reassure them all the time. Then the last one is disorganized. And that's where they're hot, they're cold, they're hot, they're cold, they're hot, they're cold. And it can be that way for women. It can be that way for men. But here's what's interesting. Like attracts like. and I don't mean law of attraction. I don't believe in any of that hoodoo. If I'm, let's pretend emotional 10 is really healthy. And let's say I'm single, I'm happily married, but let's pretend. And I'm an emotional one. I just don't have a lot going on in that way. If I met an emotional 10 after two seconds, he'd be like, no, that woman's not for me because I would be needy or I would be cold or I'd say something. He'd be like, what the heck is she talking about? So if we heal that with God or with Jesus as a divine physician, then our brain can rewire, which is just brilliant.

David:

[9:19] Okay. So how does this affect us at work when you have this attachment issue or how does it affect people in the workplace?

Dana:

[9:29] Yeah, it's so interesting because at work, it's going to show up. So like, let's say I work for a company and my boss is like, what's up with Dana? She has some, she has some issues going on, right? So if I have that avoidant tendency, then I'm going to be very aloof. And if my bosses say, I need you to work on this collaborative project, I'm probably not going to be a good fit. And it's not because I'm being obstinate or a jerk, even though those people do exist. It's really because I'm avoiding those people knowing who I am and then we can look at if you want to go on the details we can look at how that would apply to the other types of attachment insecure attachments too okay

David:

[10:16] So it's going to affect your your team dynamics at work and working with other people.

Dana:

[10:21] Yep you can do that it can also be like let's say you have someone working for you and they're constantly coming to you, is this okay? Am I doing a good job? And you're thinking, oh my gosh, like go sit down and finish the project. You are wearing me out. And when I tell you, go sit down, then they go to someone else. Do you think it's okay? And it's like they have to make the office rounds. So that's how that ambivalence would show up. Then if the person is disorganized, you'd be one day, you'd say like, hey, John over there, what a great guy. And the next day, John acts like he doesn't even know any of us, but then the day after that, John would be engaged again. And you're like, I can't, I can't figure this guy out. So it can really negatively impact people at work.

David:

[11:04] Okay. So here's, here's the scenario. So you have a person who it seems like they're doing their job, but they come give you progress reports of what they are doing all day long. And it's like, I didn't even give him a job, but he's coming and telling me, oh, I've done this, this, and this. And it's like, good job. I know that's your, that's your job. What are you doing it for? Yeah. Is that one of these attachment issues?

Dana:

[11:26] Yeah, yeah, it would be. So there's a workaround to that. So when you realize, okay, this is a pattern, it's not just because this person is doing, they're trying to figure stuff out.

David:

[11:36] It's all the time. It's not just one time. It's all the time.

Dana:

[11:39] It's all the time. And you notice that, like, let's say that person, they do their job. They're on target. I've never had to be like, what are you doing? So at that point, I would let them know, I just appreciate you so much. And I love your attention you to detail how you do, you know, X and such and list those things out. So every Wednesday or every Friday or at the end of every month, that's when I'm going to give you a progress report. So unless I come to you and say, hey, we need to talk about this and I have this look on my face, then just know you're good. And you can even give them something, you know, here's, I don't mean a trophy, but you could give them some little award, something that they put on their desk. And every time they look at it, maybe it's something that has your company logo on it, but just know every time you look at that, I'm thinking like, you're okay. I just want you to keep that in your head. You're doing a great job. And then I also want to reward them. So if you've already set this up where you're trying to get them to, okay, go over there and handle your own business, but they're still coming back to you. And when you say, well, what are you doing back over here? We already had this conversation. Why are you doing this? You're making me tired right now. Okay. And I'm getting grumpy with you. If that happens then, and they'll, they'll probably say something like, I know, I know, but I just wanted to know, is it really okay? And you're like, oh my Lord, like you're just asking me the same thing. Don't reward them. So what that means is have a flat effect. Just be flat. Okay.

Dana:

[13:08] And so when they ask you that, I would redirect them. We'll discuss that on Friday afternoon, like scheduled. Or remember, the thing on your desk, whatever, redirect them. Because the minute you say, okay, but this is the last time, don't come over here again this afternoon, you've actually rewarded them. Because for that moment, they know, I'm okay. And what happens is their anxiety gets here, and they're wanting you, the external force, to lower it for them. So instead you could also put it back on them and say remember before we've discussed that there are four different ways whatever that you can relax yourself have you tried the box breathing yet have you tried the whatever maybe you have an expert coming and talk about these things that's what i'm going to have you do i know i know but if you'll just look at it and just be a broken record because back in the day i'm old enough to remember when you had lps and there's the needle, right? And when there was a scratch, right? There's a scratch.

David:

[14:09] There's a scratch.

Dana:

[14:09] It's going to start repeating. So if the lyric is, I love you, it's going to say, I love you. The inflection will never change. The volume will not go up or down. It won't be the 14th time, I love you. It's going to be the same. So you become the broken record. We'll discuss that at the new meeting on Friday. Remember the four techniques you've learned. And then just turn away and go do your thing.

David:

[14:32] Okay. Very interesting. Well, that's good to know. That's not what I do. I feel like saying.

Dana:

[14:39] Why are you here?

David:

[14:40] Why do you keep coming? Why do you tell me that? I don't need to know that.

Dana:

[14:44] But now you have insight, but now you'll know what's happening. And so if you want them to break that habit, they have to learn a new pathway. Just like if you every day walk across the grass and pretty soon there's the rut in the grass and we can see your pathway, right? But suddenly there's detour signs you're not allowed to go that way so for a year and a half you have to go this other way at first it's awkward then pretty soon you don't even think about it you just do it now they tell you oh that is closed off you have to go back to the old way you would have to go back and find the old pathway because it would have grown over it would have essentially died and so we want the brain we want those connections that are putting people in a rut We want the old connection to die, and you want them to help build a new connection. So while you're not their therapist, you can't guarantee you're on target with this. But if they do those behaviors, you're probably pretty close to it's their anxiety. So when they come to you that way, they're going to be there physically, an adult man or woman. It's really their little kid.

Dana:

[15:47] Just like if there's someone in the office that certain topics just make them bust out laughing. That's their little boy or girl in them. So it's either when they're really excited or they're really nervous. And that means that kid, when they were little, every time they went to mom and dad, they're like, look, look, look at my picture here. The parent went, don't bother me. Go call your sister for dinner. Instead of saying, wow, I see a lot of pink in your drawing. Because the minute you say it's an elephant, they'll be like, no, it's a tiger. So you just talk about colors.

David:

[16:19] Uh yeah that i know drawings are yeah yep very good that's that's interesting in dealing with co-workers in that because i've seen that in the workplace and not always knowing how to deal with it to me i just want to like just go back to your job you know but but.

Dana:

[16:37] It doesn't help heal them of that problem and then they're going to keep coming back a bit like a gnat they're just going to keep bothering you, but you can actually help them with that. So by helping them, they don't have to know you're helping them. And you can also be very prayerful, like, dear Lord, help me today. If Johnny or Janie comes by my desk for the 14th time, help me today to see their pain and to recognize that's their inner child. And I'm just going to be an extra generous person today. And I'm just going to help guide them back to the direction they need to go in.

David:

[17:14] Okay so it's basically accepting them and gently guiding them saying you're not overtly saying hey why are you doing that you don't need to do that but it's basically gently accepting them guiding them into proper behavior yes thing proper adult behavior.

Dana:

[17:29] Exactly it's just like with a little kid if they're over here with crayons coloring on the wall you gently take them away and you're like look we have watercolor at the you know kitchen table that has a plastic cloth that you can't ruin the table. Like you just redirect them away. And that's part, that's why if you say to someone, hey, like pretend my phone, pretend this is, you know, some kind of prize or something, I'm trying to hold it right away. And you could say, you know, Janie or John, I respect your work so much and how you do the following. And you're always so thorough, blah, blah. This is just a little token of how much I appreciate it. So if it's a star, you can say next time, go back and look at the star. Remember what I think about you. And instead of looking at you now, they're going to be like, oh, oh, that's right. Okay. And it helps redirect them.

David:

[18:14] Sure. Yep. Very good. That's, that's a lot of little stuff to think about for your different people at work. I deal with them.

David:

[18:23] I'm sure other people have to deal with as well. Sure. Um, very good. So where can my audience find out more about you? I mean, we're getting towards the end of the podcast work. Where can my audience find out more about you?

Dana:

[18:35] So if what I'm doing right now, my project, that's where I would love to direct people. So if you go to clarity, please.com clarity, please.com, that's where i am helping use attachment theory but i'm helping single catholic women to discern between mr right and mr wrong so they are the common denominator they keep attracting these unhealthy men i want them to have a place to go to where they can heal from that so i have a limited podcast series called clarity please and it talks a bit about my story because people like to hear that I wasn't born with this perfect, healthy way of looking at life. I did not choose good men before I met my precious husband, David, and he is just a gift from God. And so we can heal from that using that same neuroplasticity, and we can go from an insecure attachment to secure attachment. So if you're a single woman and you think that's you, clarityplease.com. If not, you can go to my counseling website. I only see people in Texas, christiancomfortcounseling.com.

David:

[19:40] Okay. Is this also for people who are married and who have had trauma in the past and maybe their husband-wife relationship, their marriage relationship is struggling because of past trauma? You can help work with them as well.

Dana:

[19:55] I work with individuals and I work with couples and I'm a Gottman trained therapist. And so I have some of the best training that exists because the creators of the program have the most amazing research and they teach their therapist then how to use that information. But they can predict down to a 96% reliability rate if a couple, if they see certain signs, they can predict that they will most likely divorce unless they're taught the antidotes and they apply them. And none of it's weird or crazy. It's just simple stuff. And it's something as simple as if your spouse, again, I'll use my phone. Like if I went to my spouse and I was like, oh my gosh, look at this. Wow. I need him to go, what, honey? And to want to look at it for a second. Even though it may be about shopping, he doesn't care about shopping. Just that he pays attention. Or if I go, today was a really rough day, I need him to say, honey, are you okay? Versus what's for dinner. Those bits for attention. So it can be simple tweaks like that that can actually change and heal a marriage.

David:

[21:05] Okay. That's good. But there again, it takes both sides to work towards the healing of the marriage. Exactly. But yeah, that's been very good with marriage and before marriage, look for a spouse and also at work. Very good. So you've talked a lot about a lot of different things today. What is, if you're going to boil it down, what is one step you'd like to encourage my audience to take today as a result of the things we've talked about? Yeah.

Dana:

[21:31] Okay, that's a great one. I would say to work on forgiveness. So if I'm your needy employee and I'm the one always coming to you, needing that reassurance or I'm aloof, whatever it is I'm doing, and maybe you bring someone in, they do a talk on this and I realize, oh, that's me. Uh-oh, okay, that's me. I have an issue here. Whatever the issue is, if it's I've in the past had negative relationships with coworkers, to forgive yourself. And then if the other person needs forgiving, maybe they had a percentage in it, 10%, 90%. And I love as a Christian, this formula in the name of Jesus, because he's the healer, in the name of Jesus, I forgive blank. I could say me, or I could say Jane Doe for blank, for yelling at me, for my neediness, for my having this hang up and not getting over it. And my boss told me for the 14th time, go sit down, whatever it is. And you have to say it out loud because wherever that wound is inside of us, there has been some sort of spiritual oppression going on for all those years where it first began. So if my parents ignored my artwork, let's say, then there would have been in that wound, a demon will come in and maybe it's a demon of, I don't know what would be the right word, of disinterest.

Dana:

[22:57] Okay and that demon's been sent behind the scenes going oh my gosh this is so much fun and no one even knows i'm here and so by saying it out loud scripture says every knee must bow at the name of jesus and so you can just quietly enter your breath in the name of jesus i forgive the girl in the red truck who almost side swiped me and then shot me the finger you know she was in the wrong you can just do in that moment it is so freeing because i'm amazed at when i speak to people, how often they'll say, no, I don't have anyone, no unforgiveness, no one to forgive. Really? Was someone mean to you in third grade? Well, yeah. Did you forgive them? Well, I haven't thought about them in forever. Did you forgive them? It's the number one block to any type of healing.

David:

[23:39] Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And as things people, as God brings things to mind, that's probably when you need to forgive. Yes.

Dana:

[23:48] Exactly.

David:

[23:48] Well, thank you very much, Dana, for your knowledge, expertise, and encouragement on this. You know, Solomon wrote, he who walks with wise men will be wise, and a companion of fools will be destroyed. And so today we have been spending some time with Dana and David. So be wise and put into action what you've heard so you can redeem your business, redeem your time, and operate your business to the glory of God. Remember, time has limits. You can't do everything, so choose wisely.