I found that's my experience of going to coldwaters.

You can't not pay attention because you are so present.

It's an amazing tool for getting yourself present into the moment.

I was chasing festival experiences and that kind of expansive feeling of freedom and yeah, I guess was at odds with being a adult with responsibilities and all of those things that come with that.

And we generally as humans seem to seek high experiences, flow experiences.

To be in acceptance is a powerful state.

Welcome to Mindset, Mood and Movement.

A systemic approach to human behavior, performance and well being.

I live in Brighton by the beach and many people will often look at some people who are near, near the side of the beach, stepping into the water in the middle of winter and go, what on earth are these people doing?

And I'm delighted to be joined by Grant Zetmaier who's in another part of the country.

He's over in Wales and they do a similar thing now.

Cold water swimming, wild swimming, there's lots of names for this is getting a lot of attention now and there's a lot of reasons why.

Now I'm delighted to have Grant join me because he's a co founder of Dawn Stalkers and they.

Well, I'm going to let Grant explain more but if this is about cold water swimming and the journey into it, some of the benefits, the whys and the drive behind it.

So if you are interested in cold water swimming, maybe you do it, maybe you want to.

You're going to find out a really lovely account of from Grant's side from, from the community he's built and I'm delighted to, to get Grant to share some more.

So Grant, hey, welcome Sal.

Thanks so much for having me.

Amazing.

It's, it's great to be here finally actually, because I, we, we can lead in with this is I actually stood you up and I'm really embarrassed about that because I kind of, I've been known for lateness and I've done a lot of work on that.

You're, you're a coach, so you know that I've worked with people like yourself and yeah, I didn't have a system existence for this podcast and I missed it.

And the most embarrassing part of that is that we.

So I'd followed you quite a long time ago.

So in my kind of, I guess journey through lockdown and, and Instagram and breathwork and looking at what different people were up to, I'd come across you.

So not only did I not quite make it, but it was also this was a sort of, this Was quite exciting that someone from across the country who I was already kind of interested in what they were up to had reached out and.

Yeah.

But here we are.

Here we are.

So fantastic.

I'm really, really pleased to be here.

Yeah.

So well done.

Stalkers.

We are a.

A cold water swimming group that swim daily at Panar seafront near Cardiff in South Wales at sunrise.

Well hence the name dawn stalkers.

Right.

And stalking the dawn.

It makes some sense now I go cold water swimming not that often so I know what the experience of like going to cold water and I do ice baths sometimes I'm not as regular.

My partner is a regular sea swimmer or cold water dipper if you want to call it that and goes in on a weekly basis and she.

And I'll explain more as we go through but that's been around real need for health benefits that comes from cold water immersion and what that says.

But Grant, how on earth did you get started?

Give us, give us a bit of an idea like how you came from being a man who's a land based creature to suddenly choosing every morning to spend your time going into cold water on the edges of.

Edges of gardev.

So I there was lockdown to start with.

Looking at what we had on our doorstep, the sort of what outdoor spaces we could access.

I was looking for an alternative to alcoholism and drug dependency kind of.

I saw some people doing some cold water.

I'd pride wim hof cold showers and gone through a sort of 30 day challenge.

Hated them.

And I thought getting in the C1 look it looked mindful, it looked quite.

It's quite an adverse thing to do it.

So that doesn't really make sense.

So it looked really interesting.

It looked pretty cool.

And still the accountability when you stood in your shorts in December at the seaside saying you're going into the sea like maybe as a kid you can turn around but the bravado kind of carries you in.

So it's.

And the accountability in your own shower you've only really got yourself to kind of go against.

And yes, sometimes that accountability works but not always.

So sometimes that kind of peer pressure helps get you in.

And for me the peer pressure was telling other people I was doing it, not necessarily people coming in with me at that point and then then things snowball a little.

I know the feeling.

Yes.

Standing on the beach in your pants slash swim shorts and it's blowing.

You know I live in on the coast of the UK in Brighton and yeah, it's just as windy and cold here as it probably serves your way.

And it can be really exposing.

You know, we use the word exposure in a technical term, which is true, but if you are literally stripped down to a pair of shorts and you got skin exposed to the wind and the cold, perhaps the rain, and then you go into cold water, it's incredibly revealing.

I find, and I found that's my experience of going to cold water, is that you have to really.

Well, you can't not pay attention, you can't not be in an abstract thought because you are so present.

I think it's an amazing experience to do.

It's an amazing tool for getting yourself present into the moment and maybe almost there's an element of out of your head.

So if you're perpetually thinking or perfect, perpetually kind of churning over where you're at and what you're doing and where you need to be next, it's really a way of kind of stopping all of that chatter and it's a really simple tool.

And assuming that you live close enough to the sea, which most of us do in the uk, it's free.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I think there's.

Well, of course we are an island, so there is sea near all the coastlines.

But of course if you're inland, you can go cold water swimming in a sensible, safe river or lake.

Obviously, you know, if you're thinking about this, do check your safety around that first.

So don't just jump in a river.

Rivers have a lot of currents.

In some ways they can be more dangerous than sea.

So if you are going to do this, get clear on what you're going into first.

But I know some people go into lakes as well, so reservoirs, those sorts of things.

Now, Grant, you mentioned about drugs, alcohol addiction and that sort of moving on for something like that, which sounds a very important and vital and instrumental part of what's going on for you.

Are you okay to say a bit more around that?

Yeah, I call it alcoholism and drug dependency now, whereas I would have called it weekly drinking or Friday nights out or know, some people might call it binge drinking, it, it.

So the, I guess the issue was how I was chasing fun, freedom, connection with people and, and the, the addiction was getting into those spaces.

So whether it.

I saw, oh, I wasn't a big drinker at the pub, but I wanted, I was chasing festival experiences and that kind of expansive feeling of freedom that wasn't Monday to Friday, 9 to 5 and yeah, I guess was at odds with being a adult with responsibilities and all of those things that come with That I was, you know, having a mortgage is a thing that is big and scary.

And the.

The opportunity to run away on a.

On a.

On a Friday or Saturday night was very compelling.

I get it.

I mean, it's such a.

I can say it's such a cultural thing in our country, isn't it, that.

Absolutely.

And we tend to drink at celebration, at commiseration.

We've had a good day, we've had a bad day, we've had a.

You know, there's something important that's happened in our culture.

We seem to turn to, or at least it's almost assumed that alcohol is a part of it.

And that's the thing that I turned to on a, you know, almost weekly basis.

And I Particularly going into lockdown, where the.

What was a weekday and what wasn't was blurred.

We didn't have the structures that.

So we didn't, you know, however your structure is.

But you didn't leave for work on a Monday morning and finish on a Friday and have a weekend off.

It was kind of.

It was a weird malaise of everything.

Kids didn't go to school, so there was no structure.

And that was quite confronting for me.

And then I don't like other people's structure, but it turns out I quite like some structure.

That's the sort of, I guess, anarchy element.

Yeah.

So I was aware what.

What I was chasing via these mechanisms was no longer serving, and I wasn't getting the feedback.

I wasn't getting what I wanted, actually.

Yeah.

So that's such, you know, such an important insight in, you know, it's the.

To use a water analogy, since that's what we're speaking about.

It's like the proverbial story of the young fish swim in the water and the older fish swims by and says, you know, morning, guys, lovely water today.

And they look at each other and go, well, what's water?

Because they don't know any different.

And, of course, drinking is a classic thing in.

Certainly in northern Europe.

In truth, there's a lot of alcohol consumption, I sense, and I do a lot of work with people and, you know, change.

That's what we work with.

We work evolution, change of the person.

And we generally, as humans, seem to seek high experiences, flow experiences.

And of course, using some form of a drug or narcotic or something like that, an alcohol can create that experience very, very quickly.

The problem that we have is that it also has a lot of downsides, and I'm really interested.

So particularly for someone who's listening who might be thinking, yeah, I kind of get all that.

So what's the cold water vibe?

Because what's that like?

You know, we can.

And I would say we can probably describe it, but you can only describe it to a point where you can't describe an experience.

You have to have an experience, but we can probably point them.

What was it like when you first went in that.

That first.

Perhaps the very first time in your pants or shorts, I should say.

And into that.

Tell us what that's like.

We've all forgotten our shorts and had to do our pants at some point.

I mean that's.

We.

I end up with, you know, as best sat in the van just in case, like I might go swimming there.

The.

So there was a I.

And I'll link it in the alcohol.

I'd done a stoptober, gone about six weeks and found that I went straight.

Gone longer than my expectation.

You know, I felt good about it.

And the minute I sort of stepped back into the space, it was all in straight.

So back onto the.

Back onto the wagon, I suppose.

And I got so.

And this was late 2020 and I got into the sea maybe once or twice in November and a few times in December.

And the.

The feedback.

So the immediate kind of nothingness to start with.

So the kind of clearing out the rush because it does.

You're setting a system into fight or flight.

It's quite exhilarating.

You've done something hard that you.

You kind of.

There's some positive.

You feel positivity from that.

People were interested in it because it's.

It's at odds with itself.

So it had that kind of.

It had a connectedness and a feeling of okay, this.

People are taking interest.

I'm getting some.

Whether it's recognition, whether there's.

There's a.

There's a certain amount of significance from it.

And we all have a need for significance.

And so those fed into it.

And what I noticed is I wanted to do it again.

So it was giving me something that I wasn't getting from elsewhere at that point.

And it was giving me something that perhaps I didn't entirely realize at the time, but something that I was chasing through alcoholism and use of narcotics.

So I added it to dry January and I said I'd get in five out of seven days.

And I was learning.

I didn't understand the tides particular.

I didn't really know how often you could get in.

I wasn't specific doing it at sunrise, but early generally that's what suited my schedule.

And I Think I missed three days in January and then I carried on in February and missed two days in February.

And it kind of, I guess there's a.

We all have a certain amount of addictive personality and it's easy to throw away that I'm an all or nothing person.

I have that mentality.

I kind of threw myself into something that was, it was an exchange for a previous way of being.

It does, it would expand the question.

Right?

Expands question.

You know, what really struck me as well is that you, you're really clear on that I'm quite an addictive person and I know that feeling.

Some, some of us go all in like we get consumed by things.

So if you know that's your perhaps a bias or personality stump.

No, you know, don't deny that it's a really unhelpful thing because if denying it, it's still happening.

So if you know, you're someone who needs to go all in, needs to have high experiences, then you might cycle race, you might over drink or you might go in the sea.

So choose, choose your outlet, I think is a very wise thing to do.

And this is what, you know, I'm struck by your story about and because we'll talk about the groupers shortly.

But going into that water, I just want to say as well, going in, in January, that's bold, right?

That is bold.

So my little segue into this story of cold water dipping, that's how I live in Brighton and my partner was having a challenging time, I think September 2019, and I went, look, let's go in the water.

So I'm a breath work teacher and I work with psychology and neurology.

And what I know is that if you go into cold water, it's a stressor, as you've alluded to.

It creates a stress response.

But if you can control your breath and control your mind, you are then able to manage stresses and then you're able to balance the system that what's called sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems.

And this becomes a real skill to dealing with stresses in life because you are training your system in a very powerful way.

And, and then we went in, I think that we had lockdown and so we started to go in quite frequently and even in the warmest temperature, 20 degrees in Brighton, the coast air, that's.

And that's pretty good.

And we were going in up to, I think it was October on a weekly basis and some other friends would join us and it was going out to about 11.

And I think that's where I tapped out at about 11 degrees.

I'm like, look, I'm too skinny for this.

I'm done with this.

I'll see, I'll be in the gym.

But my partner found it was really powerful because she's experiencing perimenopause now.

Perimenopause is when you know that that period before women's moving towards full menopause.

And there's a huge cascade of changes, neurological, mostly chemical changes in that, in her, in her body.

And to deal with that changes, he found it was very powerful for that experience, which is traumatic.

And I've done other podcasts, so if you're listening, go listen to other podcasts on menopause and men.

It's.

I've done loads on this stuff, but that was a really big thing.

But what I found profound is in fact I cold water swam the other week I went to a lido.

It was pretty cold.

All right, it wasn't sea cold, but it was pretty cold.

And it's that experience of acceptance, Grant.

I don't know if you know what I mean, but that experience of if you try and resist the cold, it's going to hurt, it's going to, you're going to suffer.

If you can experience the, you know, the feeling of intensity or tingle or whole experience or even the movement of the water that you're in, to be in acceptance is a powerful state and a lot of suffering and problems.

Do you know what I mean by that?

Yeah, that point.

So we talk about mindset about, you know, getting in.

So the kind of.

That I had, I'm going to call it bravado.

And you can, you can see people who, if they have too much, almost like your mind is leading the body and the body will kick, kick off and if, if you, if you fight it, it's almost worse.

So that accept.

Yeah, that acceptance is a really good way of kind of putting it across you.

You've kind of got to accept what you're going through to allow yourself to come.

And the benefits, then it sort of kicks in afterwards because it's.

Yeah, it is tough, right.

It can be really hurtful.

And I found, in fact when I went in to see when actually in the sea the last time when it was just before Easter, there was a sauna near pop up one and we went to sauna and he went to see in sauna.

Lovely, lovely mix.

I think the temperature was about 10 degrees and my hands were burning.

It was just.

But so I actually kept my hands out the water for the time being because.

Just because my hands weren't conditioned, that's, that's what was going on.

So I kept my hands out.

But the rest of it was such an experience.

And then of course, that contrast between the hot and the cold was amazing.

Now, Grant, I'm really curious about how it became Dawn Stalker.

So a group of people going in and I want to know more about the group and the community and how that came together because it was just you going in.

So perhaps you could share a little more how it came to be that instead of you going in, it became this.

And I've seen, seen you, you've seen your team on Instagram.

It's, it's a, it's a great, it's a great stuff on Instagram, which we will put the link in the show notes by the way.

But yeah, can you say more?

How did, how did dawnstalkers come a group than just Grant?

So I was getting in relatively consistently and you know, a few people taking notice.

We had a decent small community of people that would be at the tea front for coffee.

We were allowed out for walks at this point.

So 2021, early on things were opening up, but there wasn't, I guess a lot, there wasn't a lot of social opportunities open at that point.

So we were spending time at the seafront, I was getting in the sea, people taking interest.

There were a few other people who kind of joined me on and off.

And then Lena, who is Dawn Sorka's co founder, she got in on her own accord and we got introduced and she said, can I come with you tomorrow?

And that kind of.

That was the catalyst.

That was the first point where there was someone with me consistently every day.

And soon after Tim joined us and we were a group of 10 to 12 who were very consistent.

We started a WhatsApp group.

I asked Lena if she was up for doing some social media.

So we did Instagram and kind of.

There were many kind of cogs came together.

Peter, who is stole coffee, who's our kind of coffee guy, he started coming daily.

James Richardson, Jim Halfwit, our photographer again, having random conversations at the seafront.

I kind of said, you up for documenting it a bit more?

He'd kind of said something about taking some photographs.

I'd been really interested in the Dawn Days project during lockdown.

So a couple of very filmmakers and photographers who were doing things for kind of outdoor brands and those sorts of things that got effectively grounded in lockdown and realized that home wasn't home because they were always traveling, they couldn't travel anymore.

And they went out at the blue hour and took just beautiful photography and took beautifully filmic cuts and put them on social media.

And I was wondering how do I interact with that?

Because I haven't got this camera equipment.

That's not my thing.

That's not while I'm interested in photography.

That wasn't what I was going to do.

So how do we do something that kind of fulfills on that energy a bit and do it in our way?

And again, I was posting on Instagram every day sunrises.

And I guess we just created some noise about it.

And there's a lot of right place, right time, fnaf seafront, its aspects.

It's a sunrise beach and we get sunrise all year.

So assuming it's not cloudy or raining, and it is cloudy and raining quite a lot in Wales, I get that.

Not as much as you'd think.

I think geographically that the clouds appear nearer the mountains.

So we saw a lot of sunrises and the aspect means we can always see one.

So assuming it's clear enough, there is one.

I didn't realize that was unusual, but it is what it is.

So we were swimming at sunrise.

It's at odds with drinking in the pub in the evenings or do it.

So we were having social at the beginning of the day instead of the end.

You, you're not getting up and going to work thinking, oh, I've got a day of work ahead of me.

And you know, some of us get to enjoy our jobs, not everyone does.

And maybe people are working towards that.

But it's that thing of if the first thing that you do is leave the house and go, I'm going, I'm going to do something I don't really want to do for the day.

That's not.

It's not a great way to start your day.

So all of these things became really compelling.

And of course, sharing it on Instagram and the movement of cold water people and swimmers and wild swimmers.

There's a massive network out there and people started connecting.

And I remember the first time we had someone who sort of swam elsewhere and was a wild swimmer and came to visit.

It's like, I know you from.

Suddenly there's some sort of these community connections and enthusiasm and that's infectious.

I love it.

I absolutely love it.

And of course it's interesting how we've been born something new out of the COVID experience, the lockdown experience and that taking away of privilege and freedom.

And of course that was a Different experience for many people in their own way.

What I love is that you've managed just.

It feels like it's quite organic how your communities has grown.

I didn't even know that about Penarth, about the whole sunrise.

And that's.

That's fantastic because there's something for me, I'm really interested in being more human in the world.

And we're using technology to record this podcast and that's an amazing thing.

You know, Instagram is an amazing thing to connect with people and to encourage people, but we can lose sight of humanity when we live in our heads and we can lose sight of perspective when we disconnected from our bodies.

And getting cold waters, particularly with other people, is something raw.

Right.

It's really human.

And I love what you said.

It's wonderful, wonderful.

We mentioned earlier about, you know, they're being stripped down into shorts, pants or official swimming costume and that.

And that is quite revealing.

But it also, it's.

I think it strips away kind of some of that, the barriers.

There's a shared experience in something difficult.

There's a.

There's sort of some joy and happiness that comes from it, from the, you know, the, the chemical reactions in your body, but also seeing low axis sunrise in the morning and all those things.

So all of those things help break the barriers down.

It help.

It is more revealing, but it's also connecting.

And the sea or water generally is quite accessible for a wide range of people.

So the demographic can be quite vast as well, which is, I don't know, many other things like that that are free and accessible and relatively easy to get into and don't take a lot of commitment to turn up for sure.

And maybe commitment to get in the water.

But.

Yeah, I'm curious, what's one thing that really surprised you about this whole process about getting in the water and being part of Dawn Stores?

What's really surprised you that perhaps you.

You couldn't have seen coming until you did it?

I had no idea that it would be a such a replacement and such a kind of foundation for recovery, for, well, being kind of for.

I mean, mental health's quite a.

It's a.

I'm not saying a buzzword at the moment, but it didn't.

Lots of people talking about mental health, I think, you know, in terms of health, it's.

It's a great pillar for constructing your way of being for your day ahead, your week, kind of a reset.

It's unbelievably supportive.

I just, I had no idea.

It just.

See at the time it seemed like some.

Something that might help make me feel or make me not feel.

I think I have said before, I think I went in to not feel, but actually I think I was looking to feel something different.

Wow, that's amazing.

I love that.

That's absolutely fascinating.

You know, it's curious thing.

I remember saying to some, I used to do CrossFit some years ago, like really quite a lot of it and it's quite intense discipline.

And someone said to me, like, well, why do you do that?

Like, you know, you're dragging this stuff around, you do all these things.

It's all very hard work.

I'm like, yes to the outside to observe this.

It might seem unusual or weird if you're not into exercise or that particular effect.

But I said it's the feeling and that is everything.

You know, I've often said it in the various episodes I did to be able to move and to feel your body, whether that's a yoga, Zumba, heavy weight training, cold water, swim.

To be embodied in a world where we spend so much time in our cognition is absolutely necessary.

And I.

One of the problems I see with mental health and physical health, I see them connected.

And yes, they are nuanced, but they are, they're not disconnected.

The disconnection is the problem.

And as you rightly say, if your head full of thoughts, getting up in the morning, thinking, oh God, I've got this job to do, I don't like it, that's not a great way to live.

And I know we can't all have the perfect life and that's, you know, that's, that's the reality.

But we can start the day well.

And I love, I love the fact that your day starts well by.

Right, I'm going to meet everyone down at the beach.

Let's go in.

Well, and you, you live into how you think.

So, so it might come up as a feeling and then you think, well, I feel like that.

So you think like that.

Or it may be that you thought that and then you feel, but if you live into that.

So I can't think of any way better to, to start the day so that you're living into the most positive version of whatever situation you're in.

Yeah.

And you know, it's curious, I know some people who.

It's the guy who runs Strong Fit, Julian Pinot.

He often talks about people being very soft in these, these times.

You know, we, we think about, we sit in soft chairs, we relax in a soft sofa, we go to an office, got a Soft chair.

You know, everything's soft and everyone wants to be comfortable.

And he's like, you know, stuff that.

Pick up a heavy sandbag and go walk up a hill.

You know, graph, grind, feel, you know, sit on the floor, feel the hardness.

And whilst there are always these extreme people, I think of David Goggins, you know, these people are very, very extreme.

And we don't need to be like that person.

We need to be authentic, for sure.

But there's something around being okay with the rawness and perhaps.

Yeah, discomfort.

And I'm hearing from you, like, I love what you said there.

I went in not to feel, and yet then I ended up feeling.

I'm probably feeling things you didn't expect.

And that's something wonderful about these practices that you.

You can do something which is uncomfortable.

It's.

This was not comfortable sitting on the sofa, having a glass of wine or cup of tea in a warm house.

That's comfortable.

Cold water.

When the wind's blowing in the UK and your stuff's blowing down the beach, that's not comfortable, but it's real.

And there's something magical, I find, when you allow the reality of these experiences come in and really embrace them.

Now, I want to know as well, say, can you say a little more about the community?

Because we spoke about the community.

Because if we're alone, that's a tough one.

I've had some people on my podcast talking about loneliness, and it's a huge, you know, social health is a huge area now you're part of this community or this community has sort of evolved.

What's.

How's that been for you?

It's an immense privilege to start with, to.

So to be the kind of leader or founder or that, you know, that.

I mean, you can make that stuff up and you can start something and grow it, but having it kind of happen around you.

Yes, it's an incredible privilege.

Also, I don't.

You've mentioned accountability there.

And also I don't think, you know, I didn't grow a community.

The community kind of.

It.

It evolves from the people that show up and the person who invited their friend, they're the kind of, you know, they're the community creator for that.

That bit.

And it just expands and exponentially kind of evolves.

And also having people to show up for or you show up for them.

That.

Because I can't be accountable to myself every day.

I've seen people who have got to a thousand consecutive swims and more, and I think those are fantastic achievements.

And I've got some idea what it takes to achieve that.

Yet for me, the numbers were starting to be an addiction on their own.

And that took away from actually the experience.

And some days I'm showing up for some people who are, who were there with me, and other days they're absolutely showing up for me.

And you never quite know because you, when you got out of bed, you kind of like, my stuff's kind of ready.

I'm, I'm heading down.

It's kind of, you know, there's a.

I have a.

I'm quite militant about my routines.

Like, I get up and I'm going and I.

But by the time my feet are stood at the shoreline looking out, I'm only just getting together is okay.

How, you know, how am I feeling today?

What am I expecting?

What's, what's coming from inside?

What, you know, what's the weather look like?

And I think that's the magic, that, because the consistency and we went daily.

There's different people every day.

There's always someone there, but you don't quite know what you're going to get.

But yet there's always something to take.

There's always.

I get the feedback that, yeah, I help someone on one day and I absolutely know that people on a daily basis, you know, support and help me or just kind of mirror something and just you, you take something from it.

Yeah, that's lovely.

That's really, really lovely.

And what I heard there as well, interestingly, was consistency, you know, and consistency in any discipline is vital.

If you stick at something for a long time, you'll get good at it.

You'll.

You'll find connections, you'll find depth.

And there's something around moving away from this sort of whimsical nature, I guess, isn't there, about, oh, I want to go and I don't want to go it.

Simple like it's morning, I go.

Now, for me, that's, that's normally exercise.

I generally do some form of exercise almost every day.

And it's like sometimes I don't want to, you know, if I sort of ask do I want to, I'm like, really?

I'd rather stay in bed.

I'm quite tired.

But no, I just.

Let's go to the gym.

I might do an easier session or go for an easy run or walk the dogs or whatever it might be, but there's something about consistency and a note on when our mind is chaotic and busy and full.

And I know this with other people I spent who cold water Swimming, that it stills their minds.

But a mind that is chaos seeks order.

Or rather a mind that is in chaos needs order.

Perhaps that's a better phrase.

And creating order is not creating certainty.

That's.

That's been born of fear.

We're driven for that.

But that.

That's unhelpful.

But creating order is a really powerful thing for our wonderful mind that wants to go all over the place and be all chaotic.

And what I hear is an orderliness in like, I go every day and there's people there.

Well, it's a slightly different tone because the sunrise moves.

We go at sunrise.

So there's something about the simplicity of the setup and also the barriers that it removes because it is early or it is cold and it's both at some points.

But you can't say, oh, well, I'm not going this week because it's a Friday and I've got this on because you could come on Saturday.

It's just that.

And again, I don't.

There might be part of my mentality that kind of came into that and there was a bravado that people said, well, you can't go every day was like, well, I can, you know.

Oh, you can't keep the sunrise in the summer because it's so early.

Yeah, I can.

And that.

And that was that.

That's the kind of anarchic nature of it.

But actually that simplicity has created a real easy model.

I suppose, if you know, for one of a better word, in terms of a formula, it's it.

People don't have to think too much.

They don't think, well, I might miss it.

When was it?

How so it's taken away some of that.

Yeah.

Chatter, that kind of chaos, maybe.

Yeah, it's such.

So good to hear.

And I mean, that's a template that can be used in different forms of exercise or activity or mindfulness or meditation.

But create the formula, make it simple.

Consist.

Right.

Keep doing it.

Repeat, repeat.

Powerful, beautiful stuff.

I'm intrigued.

I'd love to know, do you have a time of ridiculousness?

Do you have a time when it all went wrong or something happened that you're like, what's happening here?

Well, I think that's that there.

There was.

So there was.

We had some consistent, very, very good weather and it created quite large numbers.

And it was at a time we talked a little bit earlier.

It's sort of that post lockdown where there wasn't very much else to do.

And we.

I remember we had sort of three days running where we hit 40, 50 people at one day and then the next day we had like 80 and then it was a hundred plus.

And it was this, it was.

It was like a festival at.

At the seafront and at quite an early time in the morning and that was quite overwhelming.

And now we were probably 30 people a day average and at the weekends quite a bit more than that.

So a hundred people doesn't.

Isn't unusual and doesn't feel uncomfortable.

But that kind of chaos bit, that was.

Yeah, I had aspirations of creating a festival and some of the energy went into dawn stalkers, I guess vicariously because we couldn't have festivals at that point.

And yeah, I think that it kind of fulfilled on some of that aspiration.

And we've had some events at solstices so we've had some sort of circus artists with fire on the beach and all sorts.

Brilliant.

We had a girl with a large.

I don't know what the sizes of harps are called, but this harp stood a good two feet above her head and Martha stood on the shore in a gold dress and kind of played this harp and the music drifted across the sea as the sun rose.

And we didn't plan that.

That's just.

I think she thought it was an interesting idea.

She wanted some film stuff for her solstice output and we were there and just that this is magic.

What the fuck is going on?

What we created.

Brilliant.

I love that.

Cool.

Yeah.

I mean I can.

I'm just trying to picture it now.

You're sort of like, oh, there's there's a few people here and there's a few more like all these people.

Brilliant.

Absolutely brilliant.

And I love what you said there about the nature.

It's sort of an emergent property, isn't it?

Sound like a self fulfilling people inviting people and the group just growing.

Absolutely.

Absolutely wonderful.

I'd like to kind of summarize on this and I'm particularly keen for.

Because there'll be people at Cold Water Swim go.

Yeah, we're totally down with this.

It's cool.

It's what we do.

And they'll love.

Of course we, we like listening to stuff we're interested in but there'd be probably somebody's intrigued about this is who's literally is still metaphorically and physically on the shoreline.

They haven't done it and they're like, yeah, we've seen the Wim Hof thing or we've seen these guys at the beach or we've heard about this stuff or read about it.

I know Menopausal women, perimenopausal women.

There's a lot of.

Gets huge benefits out of this from, from the spaces that I work and know.

For someone who is literally on, on the seafront, ready to go in metaphorically, like they're thinking about trying cold water.

Swimming, what would you suggest my version of that was?

Just get in.

And I think us as a, as a group, we're, we quite a lot of bravado and kind of there's that there's the push you.

I quite often say peer pressure.

I really like.

I'm dyslexic.

So words that aren't spelled correctly that have two meanings really.

And we have a really nice peer in panas.

So I talked about peer pressure.

But then we will hold your hand that I think, you know, cold water is not for everyone and it doesn't work for everyone in terms of they, they don't get what maybe I get from it.

And yes, if you've got underlying heart conditions, it can be dangerous because the shocks of the system can, can cause issues.

And I think you've, you've got to dip your toe in to kind of get it.

And if you don't like it, cool, but come and give it a go.

And there's, there's, there's cold plunge opportunities with contrast therapy popping up everywhere.

There's great facilitators doing fire and I experiences or WIM HOF instructors and breathwork instructors supporting, you know, there's, there's no greater time in terms of opportunity.

And also there's fantastic groups like the Blue Tits.

There's mental health swims, there's, you know, there's swim groups at seafronts or lakes all around the country.

You know, go find a group because that camaraderie, that enthusiasm, that connection will help you in.

And you talked, you mentioned earlier about if your mindset is at odds with it, it makes it harder.

So having that almost something to distract you.

So having someone to chat to really helps.

Yeah, yeah.

Wise words.

Yes.

It's just a kind of a cautionary note if you are, if you haven't been in and you're not sure, get, get a medical check, CGP check.

You're all good and everyone's different.

Some people like you, Grant, seem like you've gone all in and that's, that's how you roll.

And other people are more blended, so they'll take time.

Maybe they'll.

I knew someone that used to take the shirt off in the winter a lot just to kind of get used to being cold more and they did it over a longer period and there's all sorts of things.

So, yeah, get checked first.

Make sure your sound to go in.

I love the fact.

Yeah.

Get a group.

That's so important, particularly if you're doing something like this.

Enjoy the group thing.

Let them carry you in.

Metaphorically slashing that, truthfully.

But I think the interesting thing around this stuff, in my experience, getting used to discomfort is a really powerful tool in a world which is pretty chaotic and largely cerebral with so much stuff going on.

We're quite unpure as humans now.

There's so much busyness and noise.

To find that purity is powerful, but it isn't always the comfort.

And nice things such as, you know, relaxing after watching a movie, that's fine.

But something like walking in the rain, going into cold water, lifting heavy weights, it's very real and raw.

But I think the rawness exposes something wonderful.

But it doesn't always happen overnight.

And I know my experiences in life.

Sometimes I've had to keep coming back to things and they've grown and then I've started to become more comfortable with the discomfort and it's worked for me.

So, yes, whichever way you get them, get them.

That feels right.

The right way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think if I.

That's again, removing the kind of boundaries is what is the simpler opportunity you could be presented with?

Go and choose that one, but then give it a go.

Amazing.

Cool.

So for people who are not too far from you, you are in Penarth niches near Cardiff, South Wales.

You're on Instagram.

We're going to put the.

It's dawn stalkers hashtag dawnstalkers at.

Yeah, @dawnstalkers is Instagram and that's where we mostly live.

You will find us on Facebook, but it's basically just referred.

So cool.

And so that.

That's nice and simple.

At Dawnstalkers, we shall put the link in the show notes as well.

You can find my links in the show notes as well.

I hope to head down to Wales soon, so if I'm coming down, I'll come join you lot for a dip or vice versa.

When I'm across the other way, I'm coming to you.

You've got a beautiful place to swim.

Yeah, Brighton's good.

There's a lot of sea swimmers here and there's.

There's lots of good stuff going on here and my partner is a weekly sea dipper and it's.

And they're going to finish this Last story for anyone who's still on the fence or rather on the beach.

I took my partner and I, we went on holiday, we went to Vietnam and it was really hot and I and it's the first holiday we've been on some years back and I said to her, you're not one of these people that do the thing as you get into the sea or to the pool.

And she's like, yeah.

I'm like, okay, let me teach you how to get into that.

We're going to breathe as we go into the pool.

And the funny thing is that was like a 28 degree pool in a very hot country.

Cycle forward a bunch of years and she now goes into the, you know, the English Channel in the middle of winter when it's six degrees.

Fearless.

And so it shows you any of us can evolve into this thing if we have the right support and team and guidance.

But yes, there's plenty to find out.

So do look at your local places for cold water swimming.

Do check out Grant and Dawnstalkers.

My dear listener, I hope you have been inspired.

Go find something.

And if you're going for a cold water dip and you haven't experienced, let us know wherever you see, see or hear this podcast, let us know how you got on, what's your experience?

Until the next time, take care.

Thank you so much for listening.

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