[00:00:00] Dan: All right. Welcome back to the Mission Life podcast. Today we have Jamie Hawker on the show, Jamie, the Christian author, Bible teacher and ministry leader with a deep passion for helping believers engage scripture and live on mission. She's the author of the Powerful New Bible Study, esteemed God and His View of Women, which explores God's design value and calling for women throughout the Bible.

[00:00:21] Dan: Jamie, welcome to the show.

[00:00:23] Amanda: Welcome, welcome.

[00:00:24] Jamie Hulker: Thanks, Stan and Amanda. Thanks for having me. I am really looking forward to our conversation today.

[00:00:31] Dan: Yeah, so are we. Hey for those who are just discovering you what led you to write esteemed, and why did you feel like this message was urgent for today's church?

[00:00:43] Jamie Hulker: Actually, the truth be told, this started as a personal journey for me. I throughout the course of my life let me just start from the beginning. I grew up in the church. I came to Christ at an early age, and I learned two things from the church I grew up in, that Jesus died for my sins and I could accept him as my savior.

[00:01:02] Jamie Hulker: Which I did, and that he was coming back one day, but I didn't really learn anything between point A and point B. And when I went off to college, I got involved with a good Bible teaching church and I also got involved with a discipleship type ministry college ministry, and learned more about to actually walk with Christ in a relationship day by day.

[00:01:24] Jamie Hulker: And I learned how to study my Bible. I learned how to pray. I learned how to live in community with others. It was just a really good time. Some of those during some of that time was formational in me and my, for me and my spiritual journey. I graduated from college worked on staff for a little while with a Christian organization and then moved to Nashville to pursue a degree or my professional career.

[00:01:50] Jamie Hulker: Over the course of that time, I got married and had kids and quit work. And then the Lord just opened the door for me to get back involved in ministry. I go all the way around the barn to say this, that through the course of that time, I was trying to figure out how to walk out my life as a woman.

[00:02:10] Jamie Hulker: In Christian circles, there's different ideas. There's different beliefs, there's different preferences for women, and I never wanted to live my life out of my own preference, and so I wanted to live my life based on what God's word said, and I did what I was. Told, and I don't mean that negatively. I mean nobody, I don't have any church hurt, nobody like talked down to me or anything like that.

[00:02:36] Jamie Hulker: I just believed what I had been taught because I trusted the people that were teaching me still do still a great I don't have anything bad to say about that. But one day, and this is the answer to your question, one day after a Bible study I was teaching, I've written expository studies for years and taught them to women.

[00:02:55] Jamie Hulker: A woman came up to me after the study and said, Hey, can my husband come to this class? Well, I kind of panicked. Literally I flat out panicked because I thought I didn't necessarily see anything wrong with it. But I was first of all afraid of what my church leadership would say, and secondly, unsure myself what the Bible said.

[00:03:17] Jamie Hulker: So I said no, and I said no, because I had been told that that I shouldn't be teaching men in any. Situation even in a Bible study. And so I went home that day and felt like the Lord was saying to me, Hey, if you're gonna tell people you believe things based on my word, shouldn't you study it for yourself as opposed to just taking other people's thoughts and opinions first?

[00:03:43] Jamie Hulker: That was a wake up call, and that started the journey for me. And I thought it was just like I said, a personal journey. So I would know where I could serve in the church. But it turned into a study really about a lot more. It's not a study that pushes an agenda. Let me just say that from the start.

[00:04:00] Jamie Hulker: It's a study that dives into what God's word has to say about how God incorporated women into his redemptive plan. And for me, that was enough.

[00:04:11] Dan: Wow. Yeah, there's a lot of, I guess if we would call 'em cultural stereotypes and church-based assumptions about women. I'm just wondering like, how does esteem your book challenge, challenge those in different ways?

[00:04:25] Dan: Can you speak to that?

[00:04:28] Jamie Hulker: Yes. Again, like I said, it's not my heart to push one perspective or another. It's my heart to say, what does the Bible say? And so if you jump into the word of God from the beginning, you'll see that he created male and female and gave them both a what I call the creation mandate to rule, subdue, multiply, and be fruitful.

[00:04:53] Jamie Hulker: And they were to work together. One author coined a term, which I love, blessed Alliance. I tried to think of my own term, but hers is just adequate or more than adequate. To work together in the Blessed alliance in God's redemptive plan. And I loved that. And so I thought, okay, if this is.

[00:05:11] Jamie Hulker: Plan and creation. If this is intention and design, how does that play out through the rest of the Bible? I just never really knew a lot about stories of women in the Bible. I knew about Ruth, I knew about Esther Mary, of course. But other than that I thought women in the Bible were side stories or subplots.

[00:05:29] Jamie Hulker: I'd never been taught their significance. And that's the first thing I would say. Women in the Bible, it's significant. First of all, that at a time when this, the Bible was written, that women are included at all. And then secondly the places that God called them to are significant. They are called to critical roles at pivotal junctures throughout scripture.

[00:05:52] Jamie Hulker: And I just never knew that. So I would say, first of all, we need more awareness, if you will, of what the Bible actually says about how God views women and incorporated them into his redemptive plan.

[00:06:10] Jamie Hulker: That would be the first thing I would say that would be that would be helpful to know. Now tell me your question again.

[00:06:19] Dan: Yeah, I think you're hitting on it that, again. Okay, good. Or first there, there have been stereotypes, there have been cultural based assumptions of, women's roles.

[00:06:28] Dan: And those some people would say they've changed somewhat over time. Some people would argue, hey this was cultural back then and to that specific culture, and so there's just, there's a lot of confusion. About that. And so we just love that you are tackling the subject with your new study and with a biblical lens, because that's really important.

[00:06:48] Dan: Obviously. We're, what we ultimately want to know, as believers in Christ, is what does Jesus Christ say about women and what are their role in, in the redemptive plan? Because if you eliminate them, if you say they don't, they, they don't really have a role, then you eliminate 50% of the world's population, essentially.

[00:07:09] Jamie Hulker: Exactly.

[00:07:09] Dan: And that seems to make the plan a little bit harder, at least according to human wisdom. Right.

[00:07:15] Jamie Hulker: No I completely agree. Actually, one of the things I've been working on recently is just the and I don't have the actual polls in front of me, but the, if you go online, you can just Google are women leaving the church, and it will give you all kinds of re results.

[00:07:31] Jamie Hulker: Part of the reason that I feel like this is very important right now is to talk about what does God's word say about where women can serve and do, serve and have served since the beginning. And because. Women are leaving the church right now at a faster rate than men are, which this is the first time in history that's happened.

[00:07:53] Jamie Hulker: And what's more alarming to me right now is that it's not just Gen Zs that are leaving the church. It is it's younger Gen Xers and millennials. I'm a Gen X person, but younger than me. And these are people that have grown up in the church, people that have raised their families or started raising their families in the church that are leaving the church.

[00:08:15] Jamie Hulker: Not because they don't value Jesus and not because they aren't aware of his word. And the significance that having a relationship with him brings. It's because they are finding, they're having a hard time figuring out how they fit into the church. And so they haven't left Jesus. They've just left established church.

[00:08:35] Jamie Hulker: And I'll say one other thing on this line that is very important I feel like that we can do this. Discussion better. And that's one of the reasons that I wrote esteemed. I think that in a world of debate and division over this topic Jesus would call us to a discussion over it. He, before he went to the cross, some of his last words in the garden were that we would be one, you and me, people, believers in the church, that we would be one, even as he and the father are one, so that the world would know that he is who he says he is.

[00:09:12] Jamie Hulker: And I feel like that we can just do this better. And instead of coming with historical. Cultural ideas. Why don't we just go back to the Bible and see what it says. There's been a lot more linguistic research. There's been a lot more archeological discoveries. I'm not saying that the Bible changes, that's not at all what I'm saying.

[00:09:34] Jamie Hulker: I'm saying that the things that we have that help us interpret the Bible or just becoming more and more available.

[00:09:43] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's amazing. I'm i'm, looking back here and you have a Master's of Arts from Moody Theological Seminary, so I love that you are well educated.

[00:09:54] Dan: I love that you point people back to the Bible because that's, that is ultimately our text. We can say that this theologian says this or this, this book says this. But ultimately what we build our life on is the word of God, and that's should should basically create our lens for everything that we, we do.

[00:10:12] Dan: And everything that we view in this world. Because that is the word of God. And it is unfailing. It is unchanging. And so I'm just wondering if you could just, in your studies begin, can you share with us and share some of our, listen with some of our listeners just some of the strongest arguments that you've seen against women being involved in ministry and in perch and teaching.

[00:10:37] Dan: And what has God revealed to you in scripture, that basically caused you to believe differently than that?

[00:10:47] Jamie Hulker: I guess personally, back to the story that I shared earlier, I wasn't sure if I could teach a Bible study, a, an expository study. I forget which book we were studying at the time to if a man came to the class. And I feel like that, I haven't had this experience personally, but I have heard of where.

[00:11:07] Jamie Hulker: Or read other authors or talk to friends who have been in situations where they, my church ultimately would've been fine with that. I went and asked, but other people have talked about that they wouldn't, they couldn't teach boys over 13 years old. I've read stories of women with doctorates who can't teach boys over 13 years old.

[00:11:29] Jamie Hulker: Now, here's the thing about that, I'm not here again to push an agenda. I feel like that everybody needs to do what God called me to do. And I feel like that if we could go back to see the significance of the stories that are in scripture. There are a lot of them, they are in ready supply and see how God incorporated women into the story or even more poignantly how Jesus incorporated women into his earthly ministry.

[00:12:00] Jamie Hulker: Then I think it would give us a model for how we could go forward as a church. And I think that if we look at these accounts that I included in esteemed or even other accounts of women from a biblical perspective, like you said, I went to Moody, so I approached the text from a conservative.

[00:12:18] Jamie Hulker: Position, it's called a historical grammatical hermeneutic, if you want the technical term. But basically what it means is it looks at the context of the time, it looks at the original language. It looks at what the original author was trying to say to the original audience in light of the whole of scripture, so that we can understand what the Lord is trying to communicate to us.

[00:12:40] Jamie Hulker: It can never, the Bible can never mean to us what it didn't mean to them. We can apply it in different ways, but the meaning is the same. We let scripture interpret scripture. So from that point of view, looking at how women are serving throughout the Bible, especially in, like I said, with Jesus, then that gives us a pretty good idea of how women can serve in the church today.

[00:13:06] Jamie Hulker: And I'll tell you another story real fast if you don't mind. So after I, like I said, after I graduated from college, went on staff, then I moved to Nashville. I ran into a friend of mine from high school just it, odd meeting, but we were together and, I was like, gungho. I wanted her to know that my life had changed.

[00:13:24] Jamie Hulker: I had learned how to walk out a relationship with Jesus, and I was talking to her about it, and she said, Jamie, don't you know that Paul hates women? And I was like I never thought about that before, to be honest, but maybe I didn't know what to say. Like when I, I panicked after that Bible study.

[00:13:44] Jamie Hulker: I didn't really panic. I just properly changed the subject and thought, I that I needed to know more than I knew at the time. And that's why I said it's important to study what the Bible says. And I. I know that there are different ideas in different churches, and I'm not here really to tell churches how to believe.

[00:14:11] Jamie Hulker: I'm here to encourage people to do what I did. Start with a historical or a conservative hermeneutic. Ask the question, what if I've missed something? What if I've been wrong? And just let the Lord speak to you through his word and let that influence how you go forward. Because if there are plausible explanations for some of these things and there are, then why do we argue about it and shame the name of Christ in the process?

[00:14:40] Amanda: Oh, that's such a powerful statement. Shaming the name of Christ, because, the world is watching what the church is doing,

[00:14:47] Amanda: More than we realize and just all of the division, all of the ugliness that can come out, all of the polarity that can just get in there. Not that it's about being attractive, but it's about revealing the heart of the father is really the role of the church is to do the great commission to reveal who Jesus was through his word.

[00:15:08] Amanda: And there's it's really, it's not. Paul that hates women. God would not have made anybody to be such a prolific writer for the New Testament if he had hated God. God said it was good. He created male and female, and it's learning how. How do we prop each other up? It's not about competition. It's not about which one is better than the other.

[00:15:32] Amanda: It's about how do we work together so well as God designed us to, to glorify him and his kingdom and show that love and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

[00:15:44] Jamie Hulker: Yes. And Amanda, thank you for clarifying that for me. I didn't finish that story. I don't believe Paul hates women. I think Paul is one of the, after Jesus, the second biggest champion of women in the New Testament.

[00:15:57] Jamie Hulker: And I think, in esteemed, in chapter one, we start in the garden because everything needs to, the entire Bible can go back to Genesis one through three. And so if we're gonna look at a theology of women, we have to go back there too. And it's my position that it's not God that is against women, it's Satan that's against women.

[00:16:18] Amanda: Yes.

[00:16:18] Jamie Hulker: And I say in esteemed in chapter one when we talk about in the garden that you know, what if so if you're, if you know something is coming. You just start watching for it where you know it's coming from. My dogs at five o'clock every day. They are glued to the front window of our house because they know my husband is coming home.

[00:16:42] Jamie Hulker: And you'll go play ball with them more than I will. And so they love that. For, so in the garden, God promises to the serpent that the seed of the woman is going to come and crush the serpent's head. And he knows where the head crusher, the divine head crusher, the promised seed is coming from.

[00:17:00] Jamie Hulker: It's coming from women. So I believe that the widespread abuse and degradation of women and girls comes from him, not from the Father, not from Jesus, not from Paul. But if you don't study that, you can be told that and then it taints your idea or of who God is. And really that's the bottom line. The Bible is a book about God, let's figure out who he is.

[00:17:29] Jamie Hulker: Now. Let's figure out how that relates to women, and that's what the study's about. And and then encouraging women to live that out in their own lives.

[00:17:38] Dan: We were talking about Paul and I just was looking at one of the scriptures, Galatians 3 28 says, there's neither Jew nor Greek.

[00:17:44] Dan: There's neither slave nor free. There's no, nor is there female or male or female, for you're all one in Christ Jesus. And I one is, that's an interesting word. I'm not sure, I haven't really studied that, what that fully means. But one can mean, combined, it can mean, it could potentially mean equal.

[00:18:00] Dan: There's probably some different ways of interpreting that script, that word, if you go back to the original language. But but here Paul is championing look, he's saying look there's not really differences. We are all seeing differences, but Christ Jesus doesn't necessarily see the same differences the way that we see them.

[00:18:15] Dan: And so indeed Paul, is not a hater or woman, but truly in his own right, championed women in different ways. And so we can, and indeed Christ did too. But I'm just wondering what, as you studied for this book, what surprised you the most in your own study of scripture while you were writing this book?

[00:18:32] Dan: What were some of the different things that you, as you were reading and studying and just praying about it, that just the revelation that came to you from the father from Jesus from Holy Spirit. What stood out to you? Were you like, wow, I, that, that's completely different than what I thought, or that's completely different than what I grew up believing about it.

[00:18:51] Dan: What surprised you the most personally?

[00:18:54] Jamie Hulker: I think what surprised me, the mo, several things surprised me. The whole study surprised me. I think the the, one of the things is that there is so much in the Bible about women and it's significant places that it's not just oh, there's this person's wife.

[00:19:14] Jamie Hulker: There is this person's wife who is also part of the covenant, and this is her role, if you will. And it's not always to be a wife or mother. It is this is what I say, if God has called you to be a wife and mother. I say, do it with everything you have for God's glory, and I will help you in any way I can, unless you ask me to keep your kids, then we might have to talk.

[00:19:39] Jamie Hulker: But if God has called you to be a fighter pilot, like I remember when the women flew over the Super Bowl a few years ago, the all women flight team flew over the Super Bowl. If God called you to be a fighter pilot, then you need to do that for his glory. The Bible is full of a variety of ways that women serve the Lord.

[00:19:59] Jamie Hulker: And I say that's worship. If worship is a response to the revelation of God, then how we live our lives is worship. And so how Deborah lived her life or JL. An assassin lived her life for the glory of God. I know we need to come back to that so I can explain that story, but I just think that there's a lot of ways that we can, that God invites us in to what he's accomplishing around the world and we need to do whatever that is with everything that we have for His glory and others Good.

[00:20:34] Dan: Do

[00:20:34] Jamie Hulker: you want me to get back to the J story real fast so that

[00:20:37] Dan: you're yeah, I gotta be honest, Jamie, like we're talking about women and I'm all for of that. But when you said assassin and there was something inside of me in this man's heart that said, man, we gotta hear more of this story.

[00:20:46] Dan: I gotta hear about this danger and so yeah, please tell us more, Jamie.

[00:20:50] Jamie Hulker: Okay, so this is actually one of the things that surprised me. I knew about Deborah, but I had been told my whole life that Deborah was called to be a judge of Israel because a strong man wouldn't step up or because God was punishing the weak-willed men of Israel.

[00:21:07] Jamie Hulker: And so I had just thought this might be a good place to start. This might be a good place to start my own study. And so I started there. I learned more about her and I also learned that there was another woman involved in the story, Yale or jl, depending on how you would wanna pronounce that. And and this is how the story goes.

[00:21:26] Jamie Hulker: So God called Deborah to judge to be the judge of Israel. Just real fast. If there, if it was his judgment against the weak-willed men of Israel, then why would he have allowed victory? Because eventually, so the story goes, Deborah's the judge. She asked Barack to come and join her. They are gonna take on the enemy general who was just destroying their lives and they were gonna go out and fight him.

[00:21:52] Jamie Hulker: And he was supposed to be, Barack was the general of Deborah's forces. And so Barack said no, initially. Deborah said, okay, if that's the way you're gonna feel about it, then we are you. God is not gonna give the enemy into your hands. He's gonna give them into the hands of a woman. So that story intrigued me a little bit, so I had to know more about that.

[00:22:15] Jamie Hulker: So Barack does summon an army. He summons 10,000 men. Now my brother is a military retired military lieutenant colonel, and you don't get to be in charge of 10,000 men because you're weak. That's the first thing that I would say that goes against what I had already been taught. Secondly, like I said earlier, if God is judging Israel, why would he give them victory by any means, but onto the story?

[00:22:45] Jamie Hulker: So Deborah and Barack go out. I am persuaded that she was with him in the battle. She gives the battle cry. But what happens is this unseasonable rainstorm that just Meyers the iron chariots of the enemy. And so God sends the storm and God routes the enemy, but the enemy, general Cicero gets away and runs to this tent of a woman named Yale.

[00:23:11] Jamie Hulker: And he says, Hey, give me some water. If anybody comes, don't tell them I'm here. Instead of that, she says, oh, yes, come on into my tent. Let me get you some milk. Here's a warm blanket. Just rest. And the enemy has come to her door. And she didn't shrink back from that. She invited him in and then put into play this plan that ended his life basically, after he fell asleep.

[00:23:42] Jamie Hulker: The Bible says that she took a tent peg and a hammer and hammered that tent peg through his skull into the ground. And then this is one of the best things to me in the story, it says, so he died as if a tent peg through your temple would be like they would leave any room for doubt that he would be dead.

[00:24:02] Jamie Hulker: But anyway, so he died. Now when Barack comes to the door of the tent and Yael and asks about Cicero, she says, oh, yes, he's laying in there. Can you imagine the look on Barack's face when he walks in to jail's tent and sees the enemy general laying dead There? So I would, I said she was assassin. That might be an overstatement.

[00:24:26] Jamie Hulker: She basically took on the enemy through the power of God and delivered a decisive blow. And one last thing that I found interesting about this story. So in Hebrews chapter 11, the Biblical Hall of fame there Barack is listed in there as opposed to Deborah or jail. And so you have to ask the question.

[00:24:49] Jamie Hulker: That's just biblical study asking the question why is Barack listed in Hebrew chapter 11 and not Deborah and Yale? 'cause he didn't do anything. He didn't route the enemy. The Lord did that. He didn't kill the enemy. General Yale did that. So what did he do? He followed God's chosen leader, Deborah, and God honored him for that in Hebrews chapter 11.

[00:25:14] Jamie Hulker: That's my persuasion anyway, because he didn't do anything else.

[00:25:19] Jamie Hulker: So here's, these are the things that I think are surprising. There's more about different stories but these are the things that I think were surprising to me. To get back to your question about what I studied, it wasn't just that God had a woman along for the ride, like God was using women in, like I said earlier, critical roles at these pivotal junctures in history.

[00:25:43] Jamie Hulker: This is during the time of the judges. Deborah had peace in Israel after this for 40 years. She's one of the most successful judges in all of Israel or in the whole time of the judges. And I think that it's time to to revisit the significance of these stories. I. We, you grew up, if you're my age, you grew up with flannel boards about Deborah.

[00:26:08] Jamie Hulker: So we know the stories, but we don't know the significance of them. We don't know how they're a part of what God was accomplishing and how back to the garden, the blessed alliance working together to accomplish God's purpose was always his plan. And thus, I would say it's Gabrielle and Barack are the blessed alliance.

[00:26:28] Jamie Hulker: So you don't have to be married to be a blessed alliance serving the Lord.

[00:26:34] Amanda: So good. And I think that just provides such a needed freedom for so many, especially women because historically there's been that pressure that's just what you do that is. One way, and if not, then there's very limited options.

[00:26:50] Amanda: But when you do what you're called to do for the glory of God, why would he, why would God create women with, giftings of mathematics, to not have that be used. Why? Even, I'm thinking back to, as I say, that Wilbur and Orville Wright, a huge influence on their learning was actually their mother.

[00:27:08] Amanda: They learned so much from her. She homeschooled them, I believe, for a while. And so that's really where part of the birthplace of aviation took place. We're sitting here in Ohio where they're from, Dayton, Ohio is where they came out of, but their mother played such a significant role, but yet it's their names that are on everything.

[00:27:25] Amanda: 'cause they took that and they, took it into adulthood. But, going back to the significance of, women throughout history and biblically and, what can even be accomplished today when men and women work together and see the value in each other, and women see the value in each other and et cetera.

[00:27:45] Dan: Yeah. Now, oh, sorry, Dan, did I interrupt you?

[00:27:50] Jamie Hulker: Okay. I just wanted to follow up on Amanda's comment. I do think that that it is freeing in a lot of ways once you start seeing how God incorporated women into his story. Because we've been told, I was told that my greatest contribution to the kingdom is to be a wife and mother, and that was my only option.

[00:28:09] Jamie Hulker: Now, I am a wife, I am a mother. I think that God has blessed me in that regard, allowing me to do that. That's been a part of my journey that I wouldn't trade for the world. However, not everybody is called to that. I have a friend who's single, she's called to singleness. So if I tell her that the only way that she can serve the Lord is by being married and having children, then what am I saying to her?

[00:28:39] Jamie Hulker: And if you go back again to Genesis three, and you look at that word being fruitful. The Bible talks over and over again about fruitful disciples, about multiplying fruitful disciples. It doesn't have to be physical multiplication. It can be spiritual multiplication as well. And it should be, I think there's examples of women doing that in the Bible.

[00:29:02] Jamie Hulker: For example, Anna, one of the heralds of the first advent, that's how we bill it in esteemed. She was in the temple for at least she was either 84 or had been in the temple for 84 years, depending on how you, where you land there. But for 84 years she had been fasting and praying and looking for the redemption of Israel, and she never left the temple.

[00:29:23] Jamie Hulker: And I looked up that word never. That means never. She never left the temple. She was worshiping God day and night. And when Jesus came on the scene and she saw him, she was ready. And she went and told everybody that wanted to hear who he was. And the tense of that verb there is not that she did it that day when Jesus and marrying Joseph came in the temple.

[00:29:44] Jamie Hulker: That's how she lived the rest of her life. And so I think that the idea that there's only one way to serve the Lord is limiting. And like you said, we need to be freed up to be the people that God has created us to be. I would even say that way for men as well. Part of the couple of things in the study that we do address, it's a study about women.

[00:30:06] Jamie Hulker: Not to say that men aren't important, it's just that there's plenty of studies about men. But like Barack, so Barack wasn't called to be a leader. He was called to be a leader, but he wasn't called to be the judge at the time. Is that okay? Yes. Lapidoth, Deborah's husband, Joseph, Mary's husband, those men gave up their life to get behind their wive's calling.

[00:30:30] Jamie Hulker: And I can tell you that I know that personally because my husband does that. I, at one point I remember thinking, 'cause I was told that the men should be on the white horse out front leading the charge. And I was supposed to get behind him, follow him, and make him look good. That was my role.

[00:30:48] Jamie Hulker: And I struggled with that because my husband's gifting is different than that, and I wasn't sure what to do about that. And one day, actually, somebody asked him that. One of my son's college dads friends said Mr. Holger. Everything Mrs. Ker does in the church. How do you see yourself as the spiritual leader of your family?

[00:31:09] Dan: Wow.

[00:31:09] Jamie Hulker: And yeah. And so I my husband is not shy at all. He's very successful in what he does, but I I just was like, oh, I need to answer this for him because this is awkward and he's more reserved and so I need to, but the Lord just shut my mouth. And I just listened and my husband said to my son's friend the way I see it is that my role as a spiritual leader is to make sure those I'm leading are equipped and ready to do what God has called them to do.

[00:31:39] Jamie Hulker: And, he does that really better than I could have ever asked for. And for our boys have both served in ministry full time and, just that's how he saw his leadership role. And I feel like that if we could. If we could get beyond specific roles and just see what the Bible says and be who God created us to be, then we would flourish more in the church.

[00:32:05] Jamie Hulker: Like you said, women are half the church. And and then we would also quit arguing over it and have space and respect esteem for people that might see things a little differently, but we could just work together in this for God's glory.

[00:32:22] Dan: Yeah.

[00:32:23] Amanda: Man,

[00:32:25] Dan: so well said. I'm, I'm still back at assassin and I'm, I'm still, I'm still pondering these things and the action that, that was in there.

[00:32:32] Dan: And, I think, 20 26, 20 27, like baby name, girls J might be like, we might be a spike and JL gl might see groups assassins for Christ. I'm, I'm thinking I'm thinking this could be the direction

[00:32:48] Jamie Hulker: I have these stickers. I wish I had one here. I have these stickers that have a skull and it has a tent peg through it, and it says biblical womanhood judges.

[00:32:59] Jamie Hulker: That's

[00:32:59] Dan: great. That's awesome. That is great. And speaking of womanhood, i'd love you, love for you to go two directions here if you can however you feel, but I'd love for you to share I remember listening and hearing just your insightful comments on even Mary Magdalene's life and just how the Lord used her and sending her out.

[00:33:17] Dan: And so I just was wondering if you could comment on that and then just the, i, biblical womanhood because we've talked about womanhood and we've talked about even just, I think you alluded to this at the beginning of just the almost identity crisis, almost some of the confusion that there is out there sometimes for women.

[00:33:32] Dan: And I'm just wondering, what does bi healthy biblical identity look like for women in this season and right now? Just wondering if you could speak to that.

[00:33:41] Jamie Hulker: Okay. I'll start with Mary Magdalene. That was actually another thing that surprised me. Did you know that Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute?

[00:33:50] Jamie Hulker: I, when I read that, I thought this is some liberal agenda here. I've gotta, I've gotta figure this out, but there's a story behind it. And actually of the 13 times, this is what did it for me, not like the historical story, although I think that's important, but of the 13 times Mary Magdalene is listed in scripture, none of them call her a prostitute.

[00:34:10] Jamie Hulker: They all say that she was a loyal follower of Christ who was delivered from seven demons. And this is what happened back in. I think it was 5 91. Pope Gregory got a little confused. And to his credit, there are a lot of Mary's or were a lot of Mary's in the Bible. And so he confused a bunch of the Mary's and got 'em all together.

[00:34:30] Jamie Hulker: And he labeled Mary Magdalene as a prostitute. And so for 1400 years she was considered a prostitute by the church. So this is a church tradition thing that needs to be looked into. And and actually the Catholic Church to their credit back in I think it was Pope John Paul ii. Said that Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute, that she, he restored her to the original understanding of who Mary Magdalene was an apostle to the apostles, like one sent one to the 12 official apostles.

[00:35:04] Jamie Hulker: And and you know how you've probably been told you need to guard your reputation. Mary Magdalene's reputation still suffers. Here we are, over 1400 years, longer or later because somebody got things mixed up. So Mary Mag. But what, that's not the most important thing about Mary Magdalene.

[00:35:23] Jamie Hulker: The most important thing about Mary Magdalene is that she was a loyal follower of Jesus and that she was I didn't know that there were female disciples when I started the study. I thought that the disciples were the 12 apostles, the 12 disciples, and they went around with Jesus places. And I learned in the study, I've studied the Bible for years.

[00:35:42] Jamie Hulker: I'm not new to this. I just had never looked at these stories like this. I've studied the Bible expositorily for years under. Incredible teachers. And so I had just never seen this that these women, Mary Magdalene included, and Luke eight, they were part of the support for Jesus and his ministry.

[00:36:05] Jamie Hulker: And Jesus wasn't threatened by these women supporting him and being involved in what he does. I read somebody say that they were there to cook food and darn socks. I don't know if they use darn socks, but that might be my phrase, but that they, but they weren't, they were doing. But Paul calls them in Romans 16, wo not these women, not Jesus's disciples but those that followed in their footsteps, hard workers, which we know that they were doing what Paul was doing at the time.

[00:36:32] Jamie Hulker: So because he honors them for that. So they were traveling about with Jesus. So Mary Magdalene that's story number one. Story number two, Jesus. There's many others, but Jesus appears to her first after he resurrected the most. Glorious day. The best news that we've ever been told is that Jesus has resurrected when that happened, Jesus entrusted that to a woman at a time, a day and time when women couldn't give testimony in a court of law.

[00:37:09] Jamie Hulker: Jesus said, here I am. I've resurrected. Go tell the others. And he entrusted that to Mary Magdalene. I think that there is, or there's some things that we can take from that. I think that God entrusts truth to men and women, and we should go tell others the truth that he entrusts us with, whatever that is.

[00:37:34] Jamie Hulker: None of us are gonna be the first to receive the truth of the resurrected Christ. I know that, but we need to be responsible with what we have. And I'll tell you something else that I found interesting in the story. If you, depending on which gospel you read it from, the first word Jesus spoke after his resurrection, quite possibly was woman.

[00:37:55] Jamie Hulker: So in a day and age, our day when women are questioning if the Bible is misogynistic or if the God of the Bible is misogynistic, I would say that the first word on his lips, I would say the fact that he entrusted the greatest news of all times after his resurrection. I would say a lot of other examples I could give you, prove that God highly, deeply loves and highly regards women.

[00:38:24] Jamie Hulker: And I'll tell you that my experience these last, this last year has been that he's serious in making sure that we know that as the body of Christ and the world.

[00:38:35] Amanda: So good.

[00:38:36] Dan: Wow.

[00:38:37] Dan: Now, in your new book, it seems you've actually written this to be a, like a whole group study as well. Correct. And what, so what does that look like for groups that have been studying it?

[00:38:46] Dan: What are some of the, what are some of the feedback that you're getting from the groups that are going through that?

[00:38:52] Jamie Hulker: Okay in the same vein as things that surprised me, I'm surprised that men are doing the study. Actually, if you go to the esteemed, the Amazon link for esteemed, there are like three or four reviews written by men that say, we needed this more than we realized.

[00:39:09] Jamie Hulker: And and I know I was shocked by that. I would say that the other thing that's very meaningful to me, a woman came up to me, I was actually in another country, and she came up to me and said, I knew Jesus loved me. I just never knew how much.

[00:39:27] Dan: Wow.

[00:39:28] Jamie Hulker: And and so I think that deep love and high regard for women gets that God has gets lost in the shuffle of the debate that we have on what women can or can't do.

[00:39:39] Jamie Hulker: That's a, that's an important topic. That's not the study of esteemed necessarily. That the study of esteemed is. God loves you. He has incorporated, he has always he designed you to be a part of his redemptive plan from the beginning. And he has walked that out through scriptures. And Jesus Christ, who doesn't change yesterday, today, and forever, is still doing that today.

[00:40:03] Jamie Hulker: How is he calling you into this? And so I would say that that those revelations of God. God's deep love for women in ways they may never have imagined or thought of, or, I remember one woman when I said that God created male and female in his image. She said, oh, I always thought that females were created in the image of males, and I was less than because of that, but that's not the truth of the Bible.

[00:40:32] Jamie Hulker: And so I think that my experience is that the the significance of the stories of women or the accounts of women in the Bible are becoming more and more real in people's lives. And they are, they're growing in their relationships to God as a result of that and responding to him in obedience and worship.

[00:40:58] Jamie Hulker: And I am just grateful that God has allowed me to be a part of this conversation.

[00:41:06] Dan: Yeah, what more do we want is when we produce something, whether it's a book or music or whatever that is. That the feedback and the result of that creation is people are drawing closer to the father. Right?

[00:41:19] Dan: That's that's a win, right? And so exactly. That's awesome. And I'm just thinking man, like of course men are gonna be want you start, you keep on talking about JL man, like people, of course men are gonna wanna be part of this study, a female Jason Bourne.

[00:41:32] Dan: Like we, we why would we why would we not wanna be part of this? So this is great for book sales. Just joking aside what resistance, have you felt any resistance or pushback from. From the release of this book as well. Can you speak to that?

[00:41:49] Jamie Hulker: I have just because I wanna be careful on how I answer this because I don't wanna contribute to the noise that surrounds this this topic. But I do know that there are some who have who I've talked to about maybe even doing a conference at for that. They're a little hesitant because they're afraid that I'm gonna come and say, you need to be this way and the church.

[00:42:14] Jamie Hulker: But really that is that is not my heart. My heart is not to be the Holy Spirit in anybody's life. My heart is to be the person that studied this and brought some plausible understandings of what Scripture says from a conservative standpoint based on the tried and true Bible study methods about what God intends and how his heart is towards women, so that the entire church is better.

[00:42:45] Jamie Hulker: So the pushback that I've received, I think has been more more from concern, more from just. An over, I don't wanna say an overabundance of caution, but I do think that, leaders are charged to be gatekeepers of what comes into their bodies. And I wanna be respectful of that. But I would just ask, like the pushback that I've had, I ask people, maybe let's just talk about this some more so that you can get a better understanding of where I'm coming from and and so that way we don't have to be divided over this.

[00:43:20] Jamie Hulker: Unity does not mean uniformity. And I think that we get that confused in in the body of Christ. I think that we all think that we need to be this way or we're not. In the right? Not okay. I just over stereotyped us all. I'm very sorry about that. I think that there is a thought that's prevalent that says we should all agree on so many different things.

[00:43:45] Jamie Hulker: And I think that I think that there's only I think that there should be different different levels. Everybody can have an opinion on anything. I had an opinion on how women should serve in the church. I think that's fine. You should never divide fellowship over opinions. And then when I was challenged on my opinions, I had to study it for myself like I explained to you.

[00:44:07] Jamie Hulker: So I would say the next level would be persuasions. And those are opinions that you studied for yourself, but they're more like secondary issues. Now, I do think that the issue of women in the church is a secondary issue, even though it has big ramifications because women are turning away from Jesus because of that.

[00:44:27] Jamie Hulker: But it's a secondary issue. None the same. Nobody's salvation is going to rest on what you believe about what women can or can't do in the church. So those are things that are persuasions and you should never divide fellowship over persuasions like we talked about Jesus in John 17. People don't waste words or their last words on things that don't matter.

[00:44:49] Jamie Hulker: Some of Jesus's last words were that we would be one, even as he and the father are one. So we should never divide fellowship over opinions or persuasions. Then comes convictions. And that's the big, that's the big one. But I would say that a person should hold few convictions. That they should.

[00:45:08] Jamie Hulker: Jesus is the son of God and he is God's only provisioned for mankind. Sin the Bible is true and we can stick our lives on it and authoritative and an errand. And that Jesus is coming back one day and that the Father, son and Holy Spirit are the trying God. And those are the things that I would, if pushed to this, we'd be willing to divide fellowship over. Although I think that, I can still be friends and have people in the body of Christ that I fellowship with and talk to and all that, that hold different convictions than I do in those regards. They may never ask me to come teach at their church.

[00:45:52] Jamie Hulker: That's fine, but we don't have to be mad at each other over those differences. I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't wanna go to their I don't want to espouse their theology. That's what I'm trying to say. I don't wanna espouse their theology, but I can honor and esteem them as people.

[00:46:12] Amanda: Said.

[00:46:14] Dan: That's so well said. And I I appreciate that answer. Just a thoughtful answer. And I think that's really important too for listeners. I ask that question for a reason, is that because, oftentimes, this show is called The Mission of Life. We all have different missions, we all have different callings, we all have different anointings things that God wants us to do.

[00:46:29] Dan: And oftentimes when we step into those things, we're gonna hit, we do get pushback, right? Whether it's from the enemy, or whether from, just other people or from other Christians, we're gonna, we're gonna have some sort of resistance. And ultimately we have to push through that res resistance.

[00:46:44] Dan: We have to be sure of what God's calling us to do. But at the same time, we need to keep on pushing because we have a conviction. If we have that knowing in our spirit that this is what God's called us to do, then we need to be prepared to, to continue on. And continue and fulfill the thing that God's called us to do, even when we may not be fully agreed with.

[00:47:04] Dan: We, maybe somebody disagrees with us, maybe somebody says something, wrong about us, or, whatever that is. We, obviously there's wisdom in that too. There's some guardrails to that, if, make sure that you're staying the course and seeking godly wisdom.

[00:47:16] Dan: Not just being bullheaded, but at the same time we have to keep pushing to accomplish those things that God called us to do and those things that he wants us to speak towards. And so we just appreciate you, to, pushing first of all people towards the gospel or, towards the Bible to get there, to get the Lord's word on it to them, but just also how God's given you the conviction to stand on those things that that of the revelation that he's given to you as well.

[00:47:39] Amanda: Yeah.

[00:47:39] Dan: Thanks.

[00:47:40] Amanda: Just wanted to ask, as we begin to wrap up this interview, like what encouragement would you give to women who just feel the insecurity and they just wrestle with that, with their calling. What would you say to encourage them?

[00:47:56] Jamie Hulker: I would probably echo what Dan said that if you go to God's word and know what God this is how it worked out for me.

[00:48:03] Jamie Hulker: If you if you go to God's Word and know what God's word says then you can stake your life on that. You can stand on the conviction that God has called you not being bullheaded. But but knowing that God is, know that you know that God has called you to this place. How do you know that? You know that by knowing him better and God better through the study of his word and through prayer and through being around other believers that encourage you in that direction.

[00:48:31] Jamie Hulker: So I would say that if you're struggling with this let me just say that God deeply loves and values. His creation, male or female, like you said? Ephesians 3 28. There's neither male nor female, slave nor free Greek nor Jew. We're all one in Christ Jesus. And God values us all in incredibly he gave his son the life of his son for you, for me.

[00:49:03] Jamie Hulker: So we are deeply valuable to him. I would encourage you just to trust that and start there, and then go to the word and see what the word has to say about how Jesus feels about you. It's incredible. I hear that there could be struggle. I know there could be struggle, but I also know that God's word, fellow believers, and time with him in prayer can meet you in that struggle and help move you forward.

[00:49:36] Jamie Hulker: Oh,

[00:49:38] Amanda: amen.

[00:49:39] Dan: Amen. We'd love to end with a couple fun questions here, Jamie. If

[00:49:44] Jamie Hulker: they've all been fun.

[00:49:46] Dan: They've all cool. I know we love to dive deep and it's been such a great conversation. So now as we come back up, we would love to get your insight. If you could sit in on one biblical moment as an observer, male or female, which one would it be?

[00:50:02] Jamie Hulker: No one has ever really asked me that before, but maybe for, you were talking about Y jl, the Biblical assassin. There's also a woman in Roman 16. Her name is Junior. A long time thought of as junior us. That's a long story. You can read about it in esteemed, but the female junior was a war.

[00:50:25] Jamie Hulker: Prisoner the word that Paul uses there, it says they were, my and Veronica Sinjun were my fellow prisoners. He could have used any word for prisoner, but the word he used is war criminal. And so I think I would like to have been a fly on the wall watching Junior knowing that her life would be on the line for her choices of following Jesus.

[00:50:49] Jamie Hulker: I think that I would've I wouldn't have liked to have watched her in prison 'cause that we know that was a horrible condition. We know that for a women it would be even worse. It was a atrocious. But in the conversation that she had with and about, are we gonna do this or not? Because and think about him allowing his wife to be a part of that they went at it together for the glory of God and for the sake of the kingdom.

[00:51:15] Jamie Hulker: And I'd like to have been a part of that conversation. I think it would've, I think it would inspire me. To keep doing what God has called me to do, no matter what co what it costs.

[00:51:26] Dan: You mentioned Women in act and it reminded me of, Joan, I think it's Joanna, here's the woman who's a follower and a financial supporter of Jesus's ministry, but where are her resources coming from?

[00:51:35] Dan: Her husband actually works for the Roman government. And I think this is interesting that the Roman government is actually an indirectly funding the ministry of Jesus. Is that right?

[00:51:44] Jamie Hulker: Yeah.

[00:51:44] Dan: What is what is the best piece of advice you've ever received in ministry?

[00:51:51] Jamie Hulker: Wow. I think the best piece of advice is can I give two?

[00:51:58] Amanda: Yeah.

[00:51:58] Jamie Hulker: One of them is, what does the Bible say? You just, go see what the Bible says. The other one that I've alluded to is if your study of scripture does not increase your desire to worship, your study is in vain.

[00:52:15] Dan: Wow.

[00:52:15] Jamie Hulker: And then if we talk about what worship is like we mentioned before, it's a response to the revelation of God.

[00:52:22] Jamie Hulker: So that's, that our whole lives should be changed and reveal that our desire to worship has increased by knowing God better and know more about his deep love in high regard for us through the study of his word.

[00:52:35] Amanda: Speaking of studying the Bible we would love to ask, what is one Bible verse you've underlined, highlighted, and written notes on the most?

[00:52:45] Jamie Hulker: Oh, wow. I. I'm not sure what the one is, but I would say that one thing that one thing that early on in my ministry that the Lord showed me is that he doesn't need me in ministry. He privileges me to be a part of what he is doing. And as I and he. I I'm grateful for that. So the verse that really helps shape the way that I view this and actually is the verse for here for you is Matthew, where Jesus has asked Matthew 22, where Jesus has asked what is the greatest commandment?

[00:53:22] Jamie Hulker: And he says, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind. And the second is like it to love your neighbor as yourself. And so as I kinda sat with that and looked at that and thought through that, I thought this really is the, this is a, the great commission. I know that we have the great commission.

[00:53:43] Jamie Hulker: I'm not negating that in any way, but this is like a full an aspect of the great commission that we sometimes don't think about. We think about the world needs Christ, and it does, and we need to go to Christ, but our motivation should be a worshipful, obedient response. To the God who loved us so much that he gave his only son for us, so that we could come into a personal relationship with him and have the zoe the life that he has for us now and on into eternity.

[00:54:12] Jamie Hulker: And so if our motivation comes from that, then the way that the people hear the gospel is gonna be just drastically improved. And I will tell you this, people sometimes can just de destroy motivation, but if your motivation is loving the Lord your God and responding to him, then that helps fuel you ongoing.

[00:54:35] Jamie Hulker: So I would say that verse as it plays out in other things throughout the word, what kept Ezekiel going for 25 years when God says nobody's gonna listen to you. It wasn't the needs of the people, it was the vision he had of God.

[00:54:49] Jamie Hulker: Needs are important. I'm not negating that, that's why we're here or part bring glory to God.

[00:54:55] Jamie Hulker: And the second is it love our neighbor and they go together. But there's an order,

[00:55:01] Dan: right? Yeah. Last question. It's easier one, but the new book, esteemed, and you've written it as a Bible study. If you could do a study, a Bible study, and esteemed study anywhere in the world, where would it be?

[00:55:18] Jamie Hulker: Wow. I have friends around the world and I'm afraid to choose a place because I'm afraid I might offend somebody. I will say this, that there has been esteemed bible studies in Croatia. There's been esteemed bible studies in Nigeria. There's a study in the Ukraine, there's a study oh, now see, I'm forgetting other places.

[00:55:42] Jamie Hulker: If I, I don't, I'm gonna leave it at that. I'm just grateful for the opportunities that God has given us to have esteem to go into different parts of the world. And I don't take that lightly.

[00:55:54] Dan: So wise woman right there, just leave it right there. That's, she knows when to speak and when not to speak.

[00:55:58] Dan: That's a problem with ask

[00:56:00] Jamie Hulker: my husband. He would, my husband would maybe not agree with you on that. I'm just

[00:56:06] Dan: kidding. That's awesome. Jamie been an awesome conversation. What a delightful time. Where can listeners get your book and how can they connect with you?

[00:56:15] Jamie Hulker: If you're in Franklin, you're or Nashville area, you can get that from me.

[00:56:19] Jamie Hulker: You can also go on my website that has links to the Amazon page where it's listed or my publisher's page. And then I there's also information there on studies that are available now, whether online or Zoom. And I would love to just connect with you if you're in, if you're somewhere in the world and you would like to have an esteem study, let me know.

[00:56:41] Jamie Hulker: We can make that work. We do zoom studies and would love to do that for you as well.

[00:56:46] Dan: The book steamed God in his view of Women, the author Jamie Hawker, what an honor to have you on the show today. We speak blessing over you and just your ministry and just pray that this book just helps women become all that, that God has called them to be.

[00:57:00] Dan: Jesus.

[00:57:00] Jamie Hulker: Thanks. Thanks Dan and Amanda. Thanks for having me on. And I had a blast with you guys as well.

[00:57:06] Dan: Amen. Thank you so much.