00:00:06 Sana: Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast I am Sana and today we're doing something a little different. Now we usually talk about, you know, business growth metrics, numbers, how to do this, how to do that. But today we are going deeper into personal growth. And I think I think that's actually the harder conversation. Right, listeners because it's not always linear. It is messy. It can come with losses. It can come with questions that don't have always the clean answers.

00:00:46 Sana: And my guest today has a story that demands we look at what growth really costs. He enlisted in the Army at an age of just seventeen. Not because he wanted adventure, but because it was the only door that seemed open. He served in Iraq and Afghanistan, earned his degree from West Point, led troops in combat, and later studied international relations and public policy at Georgetown. From the battlefield to corporate consulting to knocking on nine thousand doors, running for state office, and through all of IT listeners, he kept seeing the same pattern people working hard, doing everything right and still not getting ahead. His observation became a book. He shouldn't have to kill to get ahead. Reimagining wealth, power, and Belonging in America. It is a title that doesn't let you look away. So let's get into it And let's welcome our guest Chris Rivers on this. So Chris, welcome to the show. And it's really, really an honor to have you here with us.

00:02:05 Christopher Rivers: Oh, it's so great to be here. Thank you for having me.

00:02:09 Sana: Oh my goodness Chris. Um, I mean, what a journey here. I mean, so many different phases. But let's begin from the beginning. Let's start at seventeen, the time when you decided to enlist. And let me tell you that, you know, most people during this particular age group, um, this phase of their lives, I mean, teenagers, I just thought about, you know, maybe what's going to happen the next semester. Um, what? I'm going to shop. Or I actually never thought very seriously about what's going to be my next goal or in the next five or ten years. I'll be very honest, Chris. But, you know, most people are figuring out prom, not signing military contracts. I mean, what was going on in your life that made enlisting feel like the right or maybe the only option?

00:03:09 Christopher Rivers: Yeah, it's such a great question for me. It's a merger of a couple things. And the two big things I would highlight for you now is first and foremost, I grew up in a family where no one had gone to college before, and everyone was working class. Folks grew up in the same part of Connecticut, which is the state I grew up in, and our world was relatively small. At the same time, that role, that seemingly safe world that we had in that sort of fifteen minute bubble of where we all grew up, uh, the safety got smashed on nine eleven. New York is not that far away from the part of Connecticut I grew up in, and it was a combination of those two things, knowing that no one in my immediate family could really give me good guidance on how to achieve anything differently than what they did. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just I grew up knowing I wanted to try something different without knowing what the options really were outside of our little bubble. And then nine over eleven happens and the war in Afghanistan starts. Shortly thereafter, the war in Iraq starts. And I just remember in the United States at the time, the overwhelming sense that we needed to stand up and do something. And so I thought those two things I could do at the same time, I could stand up, volunteer to serve my country, not knowing all the political ramifications that were going on in the background that we all know now in hindsight. But it seemed like a good opportunity to try something different than what my family had been doing. And that was enough to say, yeah, let's give it a shot.

00:04:49 Speaker 5: Of course.

00:04:50 Sana: And, you know, I'm not even going to consider what we know currently right now. I mean, because at that during that time and especially coming from a specific condition and, you know, you you have to decide something. And because you found a kind of a purpose, you saw a direction in there. I don't think that there is any, any space or any, um, possibility of judging anything in here. So I absolutely understand that, Chris. Absolutely understand. And I think I also think that, you know, it's interesting, like a lot of people who grow up with those constraints internally internalize them first, like, um, you know, it's about them, not the structure. But, um, like you went through that shift too. And I think it's it's definitely a form of growth in itself.

00:05:53 Christopher Rivers: Yeah, I think that's right. And for me, I talk a little bit about this in the book, but not too much. I am very fortunate to be the youngest of three children. And so I got to see my older brother, who's five years older than me, and my older sister tried to go the routes that the local school counselors and other people told them they might want to try. And that didn't work for them. And I think that gave me enough of a push to go try something radically different from the perspective of what my family thought was normal or acceptable or anything else. And honestly, I'm proud of my military service. And I also at the same time, think that shouldn't have been the primary way out. So not just for my brother and sister, but for the thousands of other kids I grew up with that were in the same town. Most of them are still there, still living the sort of same economic life that their parents did. And there's nothing incredibly wrong with that. But when everyone's young, you always have these big ideas of what you could be. And just to see people who are genuinely more talented than I was, genuinely more gifted, genuinely harder working, not be able to make it out of the same situations. And the biggest difference was I said, yeah, I'm willing to go volunteer to serve the country. And along with that, in the American system comes opportunities to go to college without having to go into student debt comes basically free health care comes the opportunity to buy houses using the G.I. Bill and then start to accumulate wealth. That used to be widely shared in the American story, but has become harder and harder and harder. But for those who serve in the military, it's still available. It's something we don't talk enough about. So, yeah, I consider myself extremely fortunate and lucky to have been able to take the path I've taken and have it turn out successful. But if it wasn't for my brother and sister trying and ultimately failing, I don't know if I would have had the confidence to say, all right, I'm going to do something different.

00:08:04 Sana: I'm, uh, you know, I appreciate that you are acknowledging her different circumstances, not just solely the decision to take that risk of going to this direction. So there are multiple factors playing their own individual roles here. So that is something I really appreciate you here, Chris. And, uh, let's move on to, um, the combat leadership and the kind of emotional growth. I mean, you have led troops in combat, multiple deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan. Um, this is something that I want to ask you directly. Like how how do you grow emotionally when you are in an environment where emotional vulnerability, it doesn't find its place in there. It could actually get people killed. Like, isn't there a fundamental tension there?

00:08:59 Christopher Rivers: There absolutely is fundamental tension in the movement. So when you're in the middle of combat, when there's actually a fight happening, you have to just keep pushing through. And the unhealthy part of that, I think, is you learn how to compartmentalize or bottle things up in different areas. The longer term side effect of that, I think, is you have to learn how to deal with it. And if you don't, it will break you. And I've seen plenty of my friends and colleagues and comrades who have been broken by it. And what I found is one of the biggest difference makers, because when you're in war, it is the absolute extreme of human experience in terms of what people can actually experience. And if you don't find a way to deal with it at some point on your terms, it will deal with you. And so people who have some sort of access to like, a bigger meaning for their life, and that could come in many different shapes or forms that could come in the form of faith, that could come in the form of their own direction in their life. It could come in the form of their family. It could it could come in a lot of different forms. But people who have a connection to that higher sort of I have a meaning and a purpose to my life mentality. Know that, yes, you can get through an incredibly terrible fight in the moment by bottling it all up, but then you have to pay that price and deal with it at some point. And I think that teaches you because you don't have the option to bottle it up forever. It teaches you how to deal with the emotions. And for a white, American, individualistic sort of person who grew up in a society that teaches you like men don't cry and you don't deal with emotional stuff when you go to war. All that kind of goes out the window at some point. And actually, the best people to help you deal with it are other people who've been not necessarily the trained professionals. And I think that the point there for me is we all have a role to play in helping each other through our hard times. And so I was somewhat fortunate that I got to experience that very early in my professional life. But some people go their entire professional lives not knowing that, and I think that's part of just what it means to be a human being in a community is how much obligation we have to each other, and how much strength we can pull from each other. But we also have the individual responsibility to deal with the emotional baggage that comes along.

00:11:23 Sana: Exactly, exactly. And once again, um, I mean, this is direct.

00:11:30 Sana: I mean, um, it may sound a bit I don't think it sounds harsh. It is what it is. And, you know, here, I think it's not just only individually or only in community. It's both of the worlds in there, like individually. Also, you are making a choice and then you are, I mean, because, you know, we're talking about healing here. And I have had conversations where, you know, um, uh, veterans, they have built some great businesses and, you know, they are now coaching people. And, you know, of course, one point that, you know, you mentioned and I kind of agree with, with you on that is not only that, you know, we seek out, um, trained professionals, but, um, the people who have been there who have done that, I think they are the ones who would be the best ones to help, you know, deal with such situations or transitions as well, because it can be really, really very challenging, especially when you are transitioning from that environment and from that role to a different role. Try trying to find a different purpose, maybe.

00:12:53 Christopher Rivers: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I think that could be applied in so many other forms of life, not just in military, but in your own professional growth. I know when I was trying to get out of the military, when I was trying to decide what came next, it was a weird time because everyone who I developed good relationships and respected in positions of leadership roles, most of them have decided to stay in the Army, and so they weren't really in a position to give me guidance and advice and help me understand how to process, how to get out, or what options are even were once you got out of the Army. And so having the sort of bench of mentors that had gotten out and having tools like LinkedIn and other social media platforms to be able to connect with them and just hearing their stories. It offers so much guidance. So whether you're dealing with emotional baggage, whether you're dealing, which I agree with, you like trying to figure out what's going on professionally. There are coaches, there are other folks. And, you know, I think sometimes our pride gets in the way of us reaching out to ask how other people made that transition or dealt with what you're dealing with. But I guarantee you someone dealt with what you ever you were dealing with and reaching out and asking for their take on how they dealt with it and what they would do differently, is just another way to stand on the shoulders of what other people have learned along the way, and not have to learn the hard lessons yourself. And it's just a such a huge thing that I think everyone should be doing, but we never typically look at.

00:14:16 Sana: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, it's it's life saving. It is life saving. Yeah. Um.

00:14:22 Sana: And you talk about your book as, uh, blending lived experience with, uh, insights on leadership and belong. I think this is exactly what, in fact, you know, Brilliantly aligns with the theme of this podcast as well. But then when you were in those combat zones, um, was belonging even something you thought about, or was it just, you know, about survival, yours and theirs?

00:14:51 Christopher Rivers: You know, I think I really went on a personal growth journey there when I was in Kuwait and Iraq. The first time I was mostly just trying to survive. I was a new soldier. I had just taught myself some Arabic and could barely get by. When I was in Afghanistan, I took those lessons. I was much more senior, had done a lot more training. And they're like, before going to Afghanistan, I took the time to read about the Pashtu culture. I took time to teach myself Pashto, and it is on one hand really hard to connect with people in the environment. Because if you can imagine me as an US Army engineer officer driving around in a thirty to sixty thousand pound vehicle, wearing body armor and sunglasses and having antennas sticking out of my body armor. I kind of look like an alien to people who, um, live the tribal life and in a relatively amazing, beautiful country. Most of the time, um, but getting out and just talking to them about their own history, talking to them about their own culture, their own religion and what's going on in the world, like they were deeply connected to their own history in a way that most Americans aren't, and finding a way to connect with them on levels that they felt meaningful is how I think you can break down an awful lot of cultural barriers.

00:16:13 Sana: Wow. Yeah.

00:16:16 Sana: This is something, um, that is often not, um, focused. Um, especially in situations like this. Um, and I think it is something most people don't understand about military that, you know, it can. It can actually be one of the few places in America where belonging isn't, conditional on class or ground or any of the, um, categorizing factors, like everyone's wearing the same uniform. But but that also makes kind of the transition back to civilian life harder. Like, you know, because you come back to a world that is, um, stratified, where those things do matter again.

00:17:01 Christopher Rivers: Not only do the things matter, but the military prioritizes different things. Can you perform in a moment? Can you handle the stress? Can you pick up your own weight and go? Can you keep things organized no matter what? Can you operate on four hours of sleep at night, and then all of a sudden you go back to sort of regular life and yeah, having to decide what to wear every day is like a real pain to try to figure out. Once you've been wearing a uniform for eight years and trying to figure out what people are actually looking for. Now, they don't care how fast you run a mile or two or three or five or whatnot. And you know, the skills you learn in the military don't necessarily translate. The fact that I'm an explosives expert doesn't really help me in consulting world. And so taking the skills that do translate and focusing on those and having to find a way to connect with folks, once you get taken out of this very uniform culture based on performance, that is, the United States Army is very hard to navigate.

00:17:58 Sana: It is, it is.

00:18:00 Speaker 7: Yeah. Let's move on to the next chapter here.

00:18:03 Sana: Um, Chris. Um, let's go to Georgetown to consulting. I mean, you go from combat to Georgetown, you study in international relations, public policy, and then to consulting. So I have to ask this. I mean, isn't that a little ironic? Like, you have spent years seeing how people get left behind. Um, then you go work for the very systems and and corporations that often do the leaving behind. Like, how do you square that?

00:18:41 Christopher Rivers: I square that in a couple of different ways. And you're absolutely right. I think what I experienced when I was a consultant was very eye opening, because I didn't want to believe how transparent it would be once you learned what you needed to know. And let me explain that just a little bit. Uh, I really thought growing up that the core of corporate leaders, the political leaders in our country, genuinely were these amazing people who are more educated and more talented and just smarter than the rest of us. And so it made sense. They were in positions of leadership. And then you go through the effort to get yourself educated and how government works, how international relations work, and then you end up consulting this sort of C-suite executives only to find out whether their political leaders, whether the C-suite executives or any of these other groups that you once held up on this pedestal that actually hit the regular, everyday human beings, and some are truly gifted and are really trying to solve problems. Others are really focused on what their compensation is going to be like. And if they have to lay off people in order to maximize their own compensation. That's what they'll do. And it's all over the map, because human beings are really messy. And then you also start to realize, even if you take the individual decision maker out of it, the system in America at least, that really promotes shareholder supremacy, where corporate leaders are constantly worried about their stock price. And that's about it doesn't lead to good decisions in the long run. And I really believe there's a role for consultants to do good work to solve problems. I also believe there's a role for consultants that get overused by corporate leaders who already know what they want to do, but want to have a scapegoat that is the bad person. And so at the end of the day, getting up front and close with how those decisions are actually made, what the conversations are like behind closed doors was truly eye opening. And also set me on a completely different path after doing it for basically five or six years to instead of letting this system persist, that shareholder supremacy and profits matter more than people's jobs and long term health of the company and whatnot, that maybe the path to fixing that isn't in corporate America. Maybe it's in the political side. And that's why I started to shift what I was focusing on.

00:21:04 Sana: This is, um, this is absolutely.

00:21:08 Sana: I.

00:21:09 Sana: I wouldn't say believable, but it's logical and it is what it is at the end of the day, because, if I kind of, get the Frame shifted to like in India. We have the civil services. And, you know, it's it's a very competitive, exam. Like you kind of open your doors, um, to the political, to the systems, to, I mean, at all the social levels of, of, you know, kind of running the country, getting into the system. And if you if you see the statistics, I mean, most of the, um, the, you know, aspirants in the civil services, most of them will be coming from a very, um, very simple economic background. I mean, I mean, they know what are the root problems at the most basic levels. Um, but then when you know, they'll, they'll have their own aspirations, they'll have their own ambitions. Some of them, some of them may have an absolute aspiration of kind of, you know, um, getting a credibility in the society, helping their families uplift to a different social, um, strata or social level. But then many of them would have, you know, big dreams of making some changes in the country for the betterment of the people. But when they actually get into the into the muddy waters, per se, they'll have a complete one hundred eighty degree shift in the way they used to think or imagine about it. So that's the kind of, you know, um, transition when the reality hits are and maybe, I think the best possible kind of explanation that I would give, what I understand about that world is you have to be fluid enough, because now you know what you have signed up for. So it's your choice.

00:23:11 Christopher Rivers: Yeah, I think that's right. I also think it's really hard for people to really, you know, when you sign up for civil service. And I say this now more from my experience doing diplomatic work. Every country I've been to, doing the work of civil service is hard. Solving problems in government, no matter where you are, is incredibly difficult. And that's because solving problems at a national level is inherently hard. And then we set up these political processes to make sure different groups could be heard. And that slows everything down. And, you know, most people who go into the civil service, I think, go in trying to help solve some problem or help someone or help themselves. And at the end of the day, you end up in this system that is really not designed to change. The most powerful argument in any bureaucracy is just what do we do last time? Let's do that again. And to be able to confront that every single day, still wanting to change it year over year over year is really difficult. And what we don't teach civil servants and no country does this. All that particularly well is how to think from a systems level. What's the real incentive structure that can actually make a change for a long time? And here in America, I'll give you just one example. There's a lot of people wishing that how we spent our national defense funding, which is about a nearly a trillion dollars a year now, which is a crazy number, but people wish that we would do different things within the military. Well, the easiest way to change how the military operates is change how the funding of it operates. Then you'll see how quickly it changes, and it can happen really fast. But most of the civil servants who are working in our Pentagon doing these decisions day in and day out don't ever learn how the budgeting, how the money of it all works. But that's the biggest leverage point they have. And I can go down the list of like, every major problem America has in a different department or agency at the federal level. There's a different sort of root cause. But understanding those root causes and knowing what levers to adjust to get the downstream effect. Second and third order is really how change needs to happen. But most civil servants come up, you know, you manage your individual program, they end up taking over portfolio, they can take over a region. And by the time you get to that level, you're so beaten down by the system and how it's always worked. You now just default to that. And I think that's one of the fundamental things. How do we stay curious and wanting to change when the systems around us want more of the same all the time?

00:25:36 Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. Absolutely. Makes sense. And Chris,

00:25:41 Sana: You knocked on nine thousand doors when you ran for state office. A lot of conversations, actually. A lot of, um, it's hard to imagine for me. I mean, a lot of people telling you their stories, you know, every family, every person would have their own views and opinions from a political POV. They would want their own. You know, they will share their own set of challenges. And I'm assuming like, um, you didn't win because if you had, then we would be talking about that. But how do you process that kind of, um, rejection? Like you put everything into something and then it doesn't work out?

00:26:29 Christopher Rivers: Oh, you know, I really think putting everything into it is the important part. If you wake up the day after an election, after running for office and thinking there was one more thing I could have done, and you came up a couple votes short and I did come up just a couple votes short. Out of fifteen thousand votes, I think I came up four hundred, five hundred short. So less than less than one percent. But I also felt like I put everything I had into it and there wasn't going to be anything I was going to change leading into election night. And so by the time election night came, I was just so tired because knocking on nine thousand doors over the course of those two elections, I was averaging walking twelve miles a day, and that wears on you. And then connecting with people, hearing their problems, trying to think, why aren't these solved yet? Like the problems I'm hearing about affordability, about people's farms and the zoning of local municipalities and all this other stuff. They're not really all that hard to solve. It's not rocket science, but they haven't been solved yet, and these people have been wanting it for years and years and years. And that's hard to hear over and over and over again. And yeah, it's hard to think he has some solutions but then come up with a couple votes short. But, you know, I really am at peace with it because I did put so much into it that there was I could not knock on one more door after either election. So when you put it all out there, if you gave it all, there's really no shame in coming up just a little bit short. If he didn't give it your all, I think that would be a different story.

00:27:58 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right.

00:27:59 Speaker 8: That is right.

00:28:01 Sana: That is right. Um, and but but um. This. There's a line in your, um, book title you shouldn't have to kill to get ahead. And I wonder that if losing that race was another version of that same frustration, like, you know, you did everything right. You served your country, Chris. You knocked on all those doors and the system still said no. How did that change your understanding of what getting ahead even means?

00:28:36 Christopher Rivers: I think for me, coming up a little short after putting everything into it, and maybe this is a bit of a weird framing, but I really think what I learned in that process was how sort of messed up the system is because my opponent, who's a relatively nice guy and he's elected right now. Um, but he would not knock on doors. He would just show up and at our debates and just read whatever talking points his political party wrote for him, to the point where it didn't even make sense for the questions that were getting asked. And we were just looking around like, how is this going to solve anything for anyone? But then there's very few people who go to those debates for a state level race, and even me knocking on nine thousand doors. I show up, talk to someone, they get impressed. And you know me as a Democrat who ran, who also is a military veteran, fought in Iraq, fought in Afghanistan, went to West Point. Um, most people didn't realize that, like, Democrats even served in the military because they watch Fox News or they were on social media all day, every day and thought something that just wasn't in the realm of reality for a different set of information about what the political parties meant. And, you know, in the United States, Trump and his party has sort of figured out how to build movements online. Whether they're based on facts or not is kind of a side point, but he's built a political movement online, and people on the Democratic Party have largely been trying to stick to politics as old school, normal level politics. And when sixty five percent or so of Americans only get their political information through Facebook newsfeed and other social media sites, I just think how is a lower level candidate really going to break through when I'm actually not even really running against my opponent? Who? Nice guy, but not all that impressive politically. When I'm really running against Fox News, really running against all these social media algorithms, really running against the complete lack of my national party on these platforms, and building a coalition where people can feel like they can belong and help shape it the way that the other side has for over a decade now. And so I'm not trying to like I lost, I could I should have been able to win. But also there's just a lot of these structural things I didn't realize before I tried it, and for that, I'm actually grateful for the experience of losing because I got to experience knocking on a door and having someone say some crazy conspiracy theory thing, and I would go research it and figure out that it actually came from the Russian bot farm. But at least I know where it came from and can tell the next person that. So all that to say, I really think there's a path forward, um, for American politics, but it also requires people on the Democratic side of the aisle to wake up in the way that people are building belonging groups politically nowadays. And by the way, that's not just happening in America. A lot of countries are seeing political movements build and be sustained almost completely online. And that's just a new form of politics.

00:31:49 Speaker 5: Absolutely.

00:31:50 Sana: This is something that I also, I wondered, wondered every, every day. I mean, you know, it's it's not um, I'm not mocking or taunting, but I think it's easy for me to say or think that, you know, okay, this policy or this department of government or other people need to, you know, think rationally about everything, not from an emotional level. They shouldn't just simply, you know, without even putting any logic or brain into it. Uh, I mean, sometimes even I also question it, Chris, like why even people are voting for this particular, you know, candidate. Uh, when?

00:32:42 Christopher Rivers: Yeah. Sorry. Was that the question, like why people end up choosing one particular candidate?

00:32:50 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:32:50 Sana: I mean, I may not be the best person to question because I don't know how exactly it works on the ground. And it's it's a different game altogether on the ground.

00:32:59 Christopher Rivers: It is a different game altogether. And it's.

00:33:01 Speaker 5: Weird. Yeah. Of course.

00:33:03 Christopher Rivers: Yeah, it's weird because it also sort of cuts both ways. Um, I was really amazed at finding out that people wanted to vote for me because, like, I lost sixty five pounds in three months. They joined the Army. And people like the fact that I lost weight. Like why you would ever choose a political candidate for that reason? I have no idea. That doesn't mean anything, politically speaking or policy or whatnot, but people like that, and I think what I sort of came to terms with is people look for ways to find connections, especially with those who are trying to lead. And so if they were on a weight loss journey and they recognized that I was on a weight loss journey and that's how we connected, so be it, I guess. But I also think, like, pure rationality isn't always the best way either. Like at the end of the day.

00:33:52 Speaker 5: Exactly.

00:33:53 Christopher Rivers: Old school decision making theory basically says there's two ways to make any decision. One is the pure, rational way. One's a pure emotional gut reaction sort of way. And I think where the magic happens is when you can use both. And just to make this really simple, you know, if you're choosing what gum or candy to get at the checkout line. Rational I like this price. Done. Don't worry about it. You're trying to decide a big question, like who you want to marry or be partnered to for the rest of your life. That's more of an emotional thing anyways. Like you can't possibly have enough data points to figure that one out. And so we as human beings, I think, have thousands of years of intuition built into us. And so learning how to leverage that in a way that makes sense is powerful. And there's a really amazing book called The Righteous Brain, where the author talks about exactly that. How do you rationally get to a point of what you decide is good or bad, and how do you emotionally do that? And then how do you reconcile the two if they're ever different? But yet that's also a lot of hard work to ask for people, especially people who are just working. You know, in America, some people are working two and a half full time jobs just to make ends meet. And then you want them to, like, sit back and rationally go through what they want emotionally go through and reconcile it. It's just a lot of work. But I also think it's something that we should all train far more often, because the more you train it, the easier it gets, and then you can really rely on both the emotional side and rational side. And that's ultimately, I think, how you make the best decision possible when it comes to deciding who you want to vote for. I would argue doing the combination of the two is probably the best case for every person who votes.

00:35:33 Speaker 5: Yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense. Chris.

00:35:36 Sana: Before we wrap up, um, one big final question. Of course. Chris. Um, what message do you want? Us readers, let's say our listeners, uh, from this podcast, who will be now Going ahead and getting hold of your book. You shouldn't have to kill to get ahead, to get, you know, what kind of message that you would like to convey to all the readers out there through this book. Do you think that this is something that, is actually, going to change systems or maybe, you know, people would think it's just wishful thinking?

00:36:16 Christopher Rivers: I think a lot of people are going to think when they first glance at it, especially if they flip to the back where I have all the answers to the test. Basically, that it sounds like wishful thinking. But what I try to make a case for in the book, and what I hope that readers or listeners walk away from it with, is this real sense of hope, but a hope grounded in reality. What I mean by that is, whether it's America or other countries, there's a bunch of there's billions of people on this planet right now that are really struggling, economically speaking, to get by in countries that have enough money to go around. And oftentimes, especially in America's case, I really make the case and lay out exactly what those decisions were that got us to now. And by the way, those decisions were generally made about forty to fifty years ago. And what you have to wrestle with is the reality that our current level of inequality, the current level of political divisiveness, the current most of the bad stuff that's going on right now was brought into our lives because of decisions made decades ago. And once you realize that, and once you realize there's actually a way to understand this where you don't need to go to Georgetown, you don't need to go get a master's degree and how this stuff works. You can actually hopefully read my book and understand the very basics of economics enough to make different decisions on who you vote for. Hopefully, you'll learn enough about how political power works to make different decisions, who to vote for, and you'll realize that there's actually a lot more room to be empowered to be part of the change. If you want to run for office in whatever country you great, do that. If you're an artist and you want to make art about it, do it. If you want to be empowered with the sort of questions to talk to relatives, loved ones, family members, friends, anyone who you politically disagree with. There are specific recommendations in the book of how to do that, and reconnecting on a human to human level is how we build the political movement to create the change that we need to see in our economies all around the world. And so there is a very clear path to make that happen. And so I hope people really leave with a sense of just hope, but hope that you have to work for. It's not going to happen on its own, but there is a path to make it happen. And you, everyone listening to this, everyone reads a book can be a part of that path. Regardless of what country you're living in, you can be part of building a better future for everyone.

00:38:39 Speaker 5: Absolutely.

00:38:40 Sana: The key word here is hope. And let's not give up on that hope. That is something I also personally, um, I feel as well, even if, um, you know, currently or presently things can be completely adverse. But still, let's cling on to that hope, because that is at least, you know, we have that freedom to make a choice here that should we be hopeful or should we completely give up? I think let's be hopeful. And, Chris, I really am thankful because, um, through your own journey, I mean, you know, we have condensed so much today in today's episode, like, you know, you're enlisting at seventeen combat leadership, um, contradictions of consulting, going door to door, nine thousand doors and losing and writing a book so much through your journey. And you are now. It's kind of a gift for for the current generations and the future generations as well. Um, and what strikes me most here is that your growth journey isn't a straight line. There's not a success story in the traditional sense, but then I think it's a harder kind of growth that it doesn't come with a clear end point or reward. But, um, this is it's more of an honest kind because most of us are trying to figure out how to grow while navigating systems that weren't built for us. So I'm really thankful that, you know, this brings a more realistic, pragmatic way of looking at what exactly growth looks like. So thank you so much, Chris. Of course, um, if our listeners, they would like to get a hold of your book, they would also like to connect with you. What would be the easiest way?

00:40:33 Christopher Rivers: Yeah. And thank you for that. By the way. I really believe growth starts where comfort ends. And you need to stay uncomfortable if you want to grow. And if people want to connect with me and talk about how to grow in a way that can actually benefit everyone. The best way to do that is on my website, Chris Rivers comm. And there you will see links to the book. And by the way, the audiobook will be coming out sort of in the March time frame. So if you want to just listen to it instead of read it, that will be an option. But we're also launching what we're calling Changemaker Academy. And right now it's just a YouTube channel where I go in depth the more detail than what the book can offer. And if people want to join me on that YouTube video, you can find a link on my website. But I will definitely be responding to comments and suggestions. So if people want to see how to decipher what is really going on so you can figure out where to actually lean in, if you put comments and uh, in those videos, I will certainly respond to them. And right now, the very US centric. But if people want me to start dissecting other countries and other forms of government, happy to lean into my diplomatic background and do that as well. But all of it goes through Chris Rivers calm.

00:41:44 Sana: Uh, this is, what I'll do is, as I always do it for you have all the links mentioned in the show notes. So I invite all of you to check out Chris's book and, um, feel free to connect with him. Find all the details attached along with this episode on whichever platform you're listening to your Best Blend episode right now. And, um, I think that's it. Listeners, for today's episode, I hope that it resonated with you. And if it did, share it with someone who needs to hear it. And yes, remember that growth isn't always comfortable. Sometimes the most important growth happens when you are willing to sit with the contradictions and keep asking better questions. Until next time. This is your host and this has been discipline podcast. Stay tuned and thank you for tuning in.