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Jen: Welcome to the So That's
Why podcast, where we unpack the

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science behind everyday questions.

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I'm Jen.

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Chris: I'm Chris.

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Matt: And I'm Matt.

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Jen: Okay.

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So cortisol has suddenly become the
hormone everyone wants to get rid of.

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But here's the thing worth saying at
the start, it's one of the reasons you

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can get out of bed and function at all.

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So why do we need cortisol?

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Matt: Which is a great question,
'cause if I'm honest, the only thing

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I know about cortisol is that it
is, like, the main stress hormone

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that I'm supposed to be lowering.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right?

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Um, I couldn't actually tell you what
it's supposed to do though, to be fair.

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Chris: And that is the thing we
want to clear up, because- Woo.

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Because far from it just being the enemy,
as we're constantly told by, like, social

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media ads, cortisol is doing essential
work for you all around the clock.

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Jen: It really is, and it's
a bit humbling actually.

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So your body was handling this
perfectly well before any of us

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learned the word or made it a baddie.

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Matt: A baddie.

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So now I'm mildly stressed about
how stressed I've apparently

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been, I'm sensing, though
that's probably not the fix.

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Chris: Well, hopefully our little chat
today, Matt, will help you- … and

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take a bit of the pressure off.

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Yeah, hopefully.

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Um, so let's start with what it is.

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So cortisol is a glucocorticoid.

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Of course it

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Matt: is.

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Chris: Yep.

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Go on.

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What is it, Matt?

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Matt: Glucocorticoid.

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Corti-

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Chris: See, it's not that easy, is it?

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Matt: No, it's not.

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It's why you get all the posh words.

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Chris: Um, so a glucocorticoid i-
it's a steroid hormone that your

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adrenal glands, the glands located
at the top of your kidneys, produce,

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and they build it from cholesterol.

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And cortisol's day job is keeping
your energy, your blood pressure,

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and your body clock in check.

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Jen: And its reach is actually
enormous across the body.

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So nearly every tissue you own carries
or has glucocorticoid receptors, which

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are the sites that cortisol locks onto
to pass on instructions to the cell

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Matt: So it's not tucked away doing one
small job then, it's talking to more

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or less all of me at the same time.

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Chris: It certainly is.

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And, um, because cortisol's fat
soluble, it slips straight into your

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cells and into the nucleus, where it
changes which genes are switched on.

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And the last part is called
gene transcription, and it's why

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cortisol's effects reach so far.

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Jen: Which is really the answer to
why getting it wrong matters so much.

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So when one thing touches every
system, a problem anywhere

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tends to show up everywhere.

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Matt: Okay.

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So, uh, so who's then actually
deciding how much of it I've

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got at any given moment?

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Chris: So the thing that decides
this is called the HPA axis, which

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consists of your hypothalamus, your
pituitary, and your adrenal glands.

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And the hypothalamus sends a signal called

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CRH

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Jen: Which is?

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Chris: I knew you'd do that.

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So CRH is the corticotropin-releasing
hormone that tells the pituitary

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to send the signal ACTH.

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Jen: Which is?

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Chris: I knew you'd do that as well.

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So ACTH is the adrenocorticotropic
hormone, and that ACTH tells the

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adrenals to release cortisol.

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Matt: Can I just say, well done.

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Jen: I feel like we need to pause
and give Chris a moment of well

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done- There's no way I'm saying those
letters … on explaining that science.

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Chris: Yeah.

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I'm, I'm sweating now.

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But let's be honest, my
Scrabble score is through the

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Matt: roof at the moment.

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Well done.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And of course, if you're still
listening, well done to you too if

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you're keeping up with all of this.

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Jen: Yeah, it's full-on science today.

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And the clever part of the whole
system is that it's self-limiting.

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So once cortisol rises, it signals
back up that chain and tells the top

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to, to slow down and ease off so the,
the system keeps correcting itself.

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Matt: So in my language then,
it's not a tap left running.

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It turns itself down once the
messages seem to have landed.

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Chris: Yep, that's fair enough,
and that restraint keeps it s- to a

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strict daily timetable rather than
your tap trickling out nonstop.

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Jen: And that timetable is one of the
most reliable rhythms in human biology.

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So cortisol is highest in the early
morning and lowest amound around midnight.

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So in a sense, it clocks on before
you do and clocks off at night.

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Matt: Which could explain a great
deal, like when I ask my teenage

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daughter anything before 9:00

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Jen: in the morning.

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Oh, don't do that.

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Don't do that.

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Matt: Don't do what?

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Jen: Don't ask her before 9:00.

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Matt: I know.

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This is- … uh, I'm obviously not
aware of the hormone situation.

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I don't- That's the problem

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… 
Chris: I don't dare ask my
teenage daughter anything at all.

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Jen: Yeah.

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Ever.

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Matt: Ever.

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Jen: But there's a, there's a lovely
extra layer, too, and this one's

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well-established, and it, you know,
the Endocrine Society puts a name

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to it, which is the lovely layer,
the cortisol awakening response.

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Matt: So that's what she needs.

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Jen: That's what she needs.

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So in the first half an hour after
waking, cortisol jumps again between,

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somewhere between, like, 38 and 75%
on top of the level it's already

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climbing to, in roughly 77% of people.

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Maybe your daughter's the
other, other percentage.

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Chris: Maybe.

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I mean, no offense to my daughter
in case she's listening- No

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which she won't.

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Jen: We love you.

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You're great.

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Chris: She won't be.

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She'll be on Snapchat or TokTik or
whatever those- TokTik … TikTok or

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whatever, whatever these kids use.

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Jen: Check us out on TokTik.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Matt: And this is why Chris is
in charge of all the technology

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here- Absolutely … at Vegetology.

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Chris: Uh, right.

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I've completely lost my train of thought.

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Um, but we-

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Jen: Talking about the
cortisol awakening response.

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Chris: Yes, we were.

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And, um, so the current thinking
on this is that it's anticipatory.

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So your brain is priming you for the day
ahead, before the day's even started,

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which is why the jump is bigger before
a workday, and it goes flat in burnout.

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Matt: So a rough can't face it
morning then that we experience

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isn't being lazy, it's just the
ramp-up running late perhaps.

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Jen: I've got to admit, I am quietly
smug about being a morning person,

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but it turns out that it's just
a healthy awakening response and

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nothing to do with virtue at all.

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Chris: What a surprise.

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Well, I take it.

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Take the smugness all you can, yeah.

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Um, so that morning rise isn't
just a side effect of waking up.

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It's part of the signal
that actually wakes you.

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So without it, the jump from asleep to
properly alert would be way rougher.

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Matt: Okay, so the snooze button
then is me arguing with my own

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biology, and it seems losing.

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Mm.

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Chris: Yeah, that's fair enough.

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And, um, while that rise in cortisol's
happening, it's making sure your

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brain never runs short of fuel.

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So cortisol is telling the liver
to release stored sugar to make…

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And also to make fresh sugar, which is
gluconeogenesis, and to free up fats

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for energy, which is called lipolysis.

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Jen: And it deliberately holds some
of the fuel back from your muscles,

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so your brain gets the first pick,
which is part of why a morning, like

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a normal morning rise, leaves you
feeling sharp and able to think.

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Maybe I'm missing it some days.

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Don't always feel sharp
and able to think, but hey.

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Matt: Well, apparently the gap be- then
between a clear morning and a foggy one is

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partly just this hormone doing its rounds.

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Mm.

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Chris: Yeah, largely.

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And, um, it also props up your blood
pressure by making your vessels respond

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properly to adrenaline, and it helps
lock in your memory of emotional moments,

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which happens in the hippocampus,
which is the brain's memory hub.

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So

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Jen: it's doing loads of jobs here.

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Yeah.

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It's doing tons.

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But you know, on top of that, it's your
body's main built-in anti-inflammatory.

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So it actually turns your immune
response up when you're first injured

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or infected, and then it calms
it back down so it doesn't like

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overshoot and cause harm of its own.

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It's really a clever system.

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Matt: It really is magical.

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And it's less of a on switch for
inflammation and more of a thing deciding,

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uh, how loud it's allowed to get.

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Jen: Mm.

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Chris: Yeah, that's the job, and
that's exactly why steroid medicines

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like, um, hydrocortisone exist.

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They're lab-made versions
of that same hormone.

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They're borrowing that
calming effect on purpose.

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Jen: So a huge amount of what makes
you feel like a steady, functioning

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human, I can't say I always feel like a
steady- … functioning human, but hey.

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So-

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Matt: I'm like, can I get
this to put in someone's tea?

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I'm not saying who.

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Can, can we buy it to put,
put in the cup of tea, please?

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Jen: So a huge amount of what makes
me feel like a steady, functioning

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human is quiet, is cortisol just,
like, quietly getting on with its work.

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Matt: Right.

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So, uh, if this is really useful
and magical, like we've been

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talking about, where does its
frightening reputation come from?

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Chris: Okay.

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So this all comes down to what happens
when cortisol stays too high for too

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long Uh, which is really a problem.

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So over years, it can actually
shrink the hippocampus and leave

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the amygdala, which is your
brain's fear center, more reactive.

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Matt: Mm. And there's the
cortisol belly idea, isn't there?

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The, the, the one that's
sort of online everywhere.

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Is there anything real behind this?

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Chris: There is, and I'd
say more than you expect.

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So the deep fat that ar- around your
organs, which is known as visceral fat,

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carries far more of the glucocorticoid
receptors than the fat under your skin.

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And high cortisol also drives
insulin resistance, which

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results in storing even more fat.

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Jen: And it even nudges up your
appetite for calorie-dense food,

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which can switch on brand-new fat
cells, and I'm jumping on Chris's

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bandwagon, that is called adipogenesis.

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Um, and so it changes how much you
store, not just where you store it.

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Chris: I think, can someone in
the comments put what adipogenesis

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would get you on Scrabble?

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That's, that's probably a decent

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Jen: score.

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Oh, could you imagine a
triple word score with that?

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I know.

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Matt: With your A-C-T-H.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Jen: You'd just need somebody else
to have genesis, and then you could

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swoop in with your adipo and be like,

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"
Chris: Oh."

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Yeah.

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There's always someone gets, like,
xylophone anyway- Yeah, yeah … and,

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like, ruins it for everyone else.

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Matt: I'm never playing
Scrabble with you two ever.

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It's just not gonna do.

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Um, so anyway, there's a real
effect, isn't there, rather than

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a myth, I suppose, but it's the
same story as the rest of this.

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It should settle when the rhythm does, and
we shouldn't really need anything exotic.

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Jen: No.

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But, you know, with everything,
there's also, like, clinical

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extremes, isn't there?

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So we've talked about what
happens when it stays high.

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So you've got something called Cushing
syndrome, where really high cortisol,

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it ends up doing things like thinning
the skin, um, it wastes muscle,

241
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and it pushes up your blood sugars.

242
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But that's, like, the far end of
the spectrum, and we're talking, you

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know, most of us, for most of us,
we're talking about milder versions

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from, like, ordinary longterm stress,
where it's just slightly raised.

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Matt: So, I mean, we're both,
we're all inside the industry

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right now, and cortisol is
having a real moment, isn't it?

247
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Yeah.

248
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It's, um-

249
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Jen: Holding hands with magnesium.

250
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Matt: It's just like what a
beautiful couple they make.

251
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Mm-hmm.

252
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Um, get an invite to the
wedding and everything.

253
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Uh, but it's, it is one of those things
that's a word on everyone's lips.

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It's behind half the questions that we
seem to be getting asked at the moment.

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Jen: Mm.

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Chris: It is, but this is where the
science and the supplement aisles can

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start to part ways because a lot of
the marketing messages that ride on the

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word cortisol don't actually stack up.

259
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Jen: They don't.

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You

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Matt: surprise me.

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Chris: Yeah.

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Jen: But there's also this idea, I
mean, I'm targeted with ads about

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cortisol all the time on Instagram,
and also you get targeted with ads

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about adrenal fatigue, and this is the
notion that your glands get exhausted

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and simply stop making cortisol, but
that isn't a recognized diagnosis, and

267
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evidence doesn't support it either.

268
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Chris: No, but the internet doesn't
let science get in the way of a good

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marketing message- … sometimes, does it?

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Yeah.

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Uh, but what is real is, um, the HPA
axis dysregulation, and this is where

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the signaling between the brain and the
glands drifts out of its normal rhythm.

273
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So the glands aren't worn out,
the timing's off, and that's a

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very different thing to put right.

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Jen: Yeah.

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Matt: Okay, so when someone asks
me for an adrenal support pill,

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whatever one of those is- … the
honest answer is, is not that.

278
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It, the, the, it's not really
the problem to solve, right?

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Chris: Mm-hmm.

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I'd agree with that, and I'm just
hoping our marketing colleagues

281
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aren't writing, "Yeah, adrenal support
pill, that's for the next, next-

282
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research program." You
heard it here first.

283
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Yeah.

284
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Um, my obligatory Captain
Sensible moment here-

285
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Matt: Go for it, Captain

286
00:12:26,521 --> 00:12:29,211
Chris: Sensible … is that
identifying and addressing a genuine

287
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cortisol problem is a blood test
and a conversation for your doctor,

288
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not a hunch from an internet forum.

289
00:12:35,491 --> 00:12:37,991
And actually, do people still use
internet forums or- I was about to say

290
00:12:38,041 --> 00:12:38,451
is that down there with Tictoc

291
00:12:41,901 --> 00:12:41,951
Jen: and- Yeah.

292
00:12:41,951 --> 00:12:42,075
… Snap, Crackle, and Pop,
whatever it's called?

293
00:12:42,075 --> 00:12:43,441
There's, there's always an internet
forum for everything, Chris.

294
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Oh, yeah.

295
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There is.

296
00:12:44,631 --> 00:12:44,871
Oh, yeah.

297
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Even if the comments are
six years old, there's

298
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Chris: always an internet forum.

299
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That's good.

300
00:12:48,721 --> 00:12:49,471
I mean, I'm still using Windows XP.

301
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I, is that still- I, I don't know.

302
00:12:51,741 --> 00:12:53,211
Matt: Wow, yeah, I thought
you were on Windows 95.

303
00:12:53,471 --> 00:12:53,911
You've gone up.

304
00:12:55,121 --> 00:12:59,081
Jen: So it's also worth saying that,
you know, we talked about when cortisol

305
00:12:59,081 --> 00:13:03,731
is high, um, there's the opposite
problem does exist as well, and that's

306
00:13:03,731 --> 00:13:07,571
called Addison's disease, where your
adrenal glands can't make enough.

307
00:13:07,581 --> 00:13:12,611
Um, and because cortisol, you know,
helps to maintain your blood pressure,

308
00:13:12,951 --> 00:13:17,051
that can be genuinely dangerous,
which kinda proves that the goal

309
00:13:17,201 --> 00:13:19,491
was never to have zero cortisol.

310
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Matt: Yeah, so the, the very hormone
then, half the internet seems to want

311
00:13:23,081 --> 00:13:27,121
gone, some people would actually give
anything to be able to make more of it.

312
00:13:27,181 --> 00:13:30,821
Jen: Yeah, they would, because in
short bursts, cortisol is clever

313
00:13:31,181 --> 00:13:35,051
about things like your immune system
as well, which is obviously vital.

314
00:13:35,301 --> 00:13:38,671
So it shifts- Yeah … immune
cells out into your skin, and

315
00:13:38,671 --> 00:13:42,361
you got ready in case there's,
like, an injury or illness coming.

316
00:13:42,571 --> 00:13:43,471
Chris: Yeah, it's so true.

317
00:13:43,471 --> 00:13:46,491
And to come back to what we said
earlier, the trouble only comes

318
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when cortisol never switches off.

319
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So when cortisol stays high, the
immune cells stop responding to

320
00:13:52,191 --> 00:13:55,891
it properly, which is called,
uh, glucocorticoid resistance.

321
00:13:56,211 --> 00:14:00,801
So you get more background inflammation
and weaker defenses at the same time.

322
00:14:00,981 --> 00:14:02,371
That's when the problems really arise.

323
00:14:02,381 --> 00:14:02,391
Mm.

324
00:14:02,421 --> 00:14:05,091
Jen: Yeah, and it's the real
paradox of chronic stress.

325
00:14:05,101 --> 00:14:07,761
So the hormone that should be
calming inflammation, it kinda

326
00:14:07,791 --> 00:14:12,961
loses its grip, so you're inflamed
and under-defended all at once.

327
00:14:12,971 --> 00:14:15,951
Matt: So run down, then, isn't
just, like, a turn of phrase, is it?

328
00:14:15,951 --> 00:14:18,311
There's an actual mechanism,
it seems, sitting behind this.

329
00:14:18,391 --> 00:14:18,851
Jen: Mm.

330
00:14:18,891 --> 00:14:19,741
Chris: Yeah, definitely.

331
00:14:20,081 --> 00:14:25,451
Um, and there's a third way it goes wrong
that can be easy to miss as well, and this

332
00:14:25,451 --> 00:14:30,591
is where your total cortisol levels can
look normal, but the rhythm flattens out.

333
00:14:30,671 --> 00:14:33,291
And what I mean by that is it
could be high in the evening and

334
00:14:33,301 --> 00:14:36,631
low in the morning, which is that
kind of tired but wired feeling.

335
00:14:36,661 --> 00:14:40,421
Matt: Mm. Yeah, that sorta shift work,
jet-lagged, staring at the ceiling at

336
00:14:40,421 --> 00:14:41,731
2:00 in the morning version, right?

337
00:14:41,801 --> 00:14:42,211
Jen: Oh, yeah.

338
00:14:42,221 --> 00:14:42,781
Chris: It is.

339
00:14:42,831 --> 00:14:46,481
And, um, a flattened rhythm like
that is one of the most consistent

340
00:14:46,491 --> 00:14:51,141
biological findings in depression,
which is why sleep and routine get

341
00:14:51,151 --> 00:14:55,011
treated as real levers, not just nice
ideas, when it comes to depression.

342
00:14:55,171 --> 00:14:55,451
Matt: Mm.

343
00:14:55,851 --> 00:15:01,381
Jen: But the genuinely good news is that
the things which keeps the whole system

344
00:15:01,401 --> 00:15:04,981
healthy are ordinary and mostly free.

345
00:15:05,311 --> 00:15:09,843
Chris: They are, and it's sleep
first by- Well, a very wide margin.

346
00:15:09,903 --> 00:15:14,033
So sleep, it's the single strongest
regulator of the rhythm, and short sleep

347
00:15:14,053 --> 00:15:18,023
pushes cortisol up in the evening exactly
when we want it to be falling away.

348
00:15:18,623 --> 00:15:22,393
Matt: So the most powerful fix, then, is a
decent night's sleep, which is wonderful,

349
00:15:22,393 --> 00:15:26,603
I suppose, except, if I'm honest, it's
the one thing I can't put into a bottle.

350
00:15:26,603 --> 00:15:28,163
Yet.

351
00:15:28,163 --> 00:15:28,763
Jen: Yet.

352
00:15:29,143 --> 00:15:29,193
Matt: Yeah.

353
00:15:30,093 --> 00:15:30,693
Everyone's trying.

354
00:15:31,683 --> 00:15:31,753
Jen: Yeah.

355
00:15:31,823 --> 00:15:33,543
But movement helps, too.

356
00:15:33,543 --> 00:15:38,353
So, but the intensity of the movement
matters more than people think.

357
00:15:38,603 --> 00:15:42,833
So easy and moderate exercises
nudges your baseline, your

358
00:15:42,833 --> 00:15:44,863
cortisol baseline, down over time.

359
00:15:44,863 --> 00:15:48,943
But a really, like a really
hard gym session can cause

360
00:15:49,033 --> 00:15:51,313
a sharp spike on that day.

361
00:15:51,613 --> 00:15:52,323
Matt: Ah.

362
00:15:52,403 --> 00:16:00,193
So my ongoing case then for a gentle walk
over a brutal workout has, in fact, just

363
00:16:00,203 --> 00:16:02,193
picked up some proper scientific backing.

364
00:16:03,013 --> 00:16:07,393
Chris: Although, to be fair- … the,
uh, the hard session spike is short-lived

365
00:16:07,403 --> 00:16:08,883
if you're well-trained, like yourself.

366
00:16:08,923 --> 00:16:09,743
Matt: Oh, obviously, yeah.

367
00:16:09,743 --> 00:16:13,723
Chris: It's only the, it's the
kind of constant over-training that

368
00:16:13,723 --> 00:16:15,833
keeps cortisol kind of stuck high.

369
00:16:16,173 --> 00:16:20,393
So gentle to moderate movement and
consistent movement is a sweet spot.

370
00:16:20,403 --> 00:16:21,193
That, that's the truth.

371
00:16:21,623 --> 00:16:25,123
Jen: Which is probably a relief
for anyone who dreads the gym.

372
00:16:25,443 --> 00:16:26,263
Matt: Yeah.

373
00:16:26,493 --> 00:16:29,983
But I do like the advice, you know,
keep coming back to move a bit.

374
00:16:29,993 --> 00:16:30,693
Don't overdo it.

375
00:16:30,693 --> 00:16:31,633
Jen: Oh, don't overdo it.

376
00:16:31,633 --> 00:16:32,075
Don't

377
00:16:32,075 --> 00:16:32,958
Matt: overdo it.

378
00:16:32,958 --> 00:16:33,400
Don't

379
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:33,842
Jen: overdo-

380
00:16:33,842 --> 00:16:35,493
Matt: don't, don't overdo it.

381
00:16:35,723 --> 00:16:39,793
Uh, rather than, you know, this,
uh, this keep pushing, uh, through

382
00:16:39,793 --> 00:16:43,173
the, which is the sort of regime
I normally abandon by week two.

383
00:16:43,833 --> 00:16:45,713
Chris: Yeah, a gentle walk
and a nice sit-down, you know?

384
00:16:46,873 --> 00:16:48,633
You think that's a long way out.

385
00:16:48,843 --> 00:16:49,373
Cup of tea.

386
00:16:49,373 --> 00:16:50,181
Yeah, why not?

387
00:16:50,181 --> 00:16:50,773
Cup of tea, yeah.

388
00:16:50,773 --> 00:16:53,933
Uh, so jumping around to another
point is, um, blood sugar.

389
00:16:54,233 --> 00:16:59,083
So blood sugar matters as well when it
comes to cortisol because a sharp sugar

390
00:16:59,083 --> 00:17:03,493
crash, so a real dip in blood glucose, is
one of the strongest triggers actually,

391
00:17:03,953 --> 00:17:05,893
um, that there is for a cortisol spike.

392
00:17:06,313 --> 00:17:11,613
So regular meals with a bit of protein
help keep that steadier, and going easy

393
00:17:11,613 --> 00:17:15,933
on the old, um, afternoon big cup of
coffee and the caffeine, and easing back

394
00:17:15,933 --> 00:17:20,923
on the late alcohol, they're both things
that can help reduce that kind of evening

395
00:17:20,933 --> 00:17:22,203
dip and make sure it happens on time.

396
00:17:23,729 --> 00:17:24,539
Jen: That sounds fun.

397
00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:25,663
Yeah, I'm with

398
00:17:25,663 --> 00:17:26,209
Chris: this.

399
00:17:26,209 --> 00:17:28,689
Matt: I'm just thinking back to all
the episodes that we've done, and it's

400
00:17:28,689 --> 00:17:29,929
like they're all saying the same thing.

401
00:17:29,929 --> 00:17:29,939
Yeah.

402
00:17:29,939 --> 00:17:29,949
Yeah.

403
00:17:29,949 --> 00:17:29,979
I'm the fun

404
00:17:30,929 --> 00:17:31,559
Chris: police, basically.

405
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:33,709
Matt: That's you,

406
00:17:33,709 --> 00:17:33,999
Chris: Captain Sensible.

407
00:17:33,999 --> 00:17:35,929
Yeah, ditch the coffee,
ditch the glass of wine.

408
00:17:36,079 --> 00:17:37,789
Uh, all I'll say, don't have it too late.

409
00:17:37,789 --> 00:17:38,199
Yeah.

410
00:17:38,199 --> 00:17:38,579
Jen: Yeah.

411
00:17:38,969 --> 00:17:40,889
In moderation, at the right time.

412
00:17:40,939 --> 00:17:41,949
Matt: The dose is the poison.

413
00:17:42,549 --> 00:17:42,919
Jen: But there's- All the

414
00:17:42,919 --> 00:17:43,439
Matt: cliches.

415
00:17:45,269 --> 00:17:49,699
Jen: There's also, um, calming
practices, isn't there, that people are

416
00:17:49,699 --> 00:17:54,689
often quite cynical about, like slow
breathing, meditation, but they've got

417
00:17:54,689 --> 00:17:56,929
some real evidence behind them as well.

418
00:17:57,139 --> 00:18:01,779
Matt: So, I, you know, me and my I'm too
busy and perhaps wound up to meditate

419
00:18:01,799 --> 00:18:06,519
is really me being too stressed to
do the thing that lowers the stress.

420
00:18:06,539 --> 00:18:07,039
Jen: Yeah.

421
00:18:07,099 --> 00:18:09,069
Chris: That is the
unfortunate loop, I'm afraid.

422
00:18:09,169 --> 00:18:12,639
And, um, feeling connected and in
control of your day matters more than

423
00:18:12,639 --> 00:18:16,279
people expect, actually, and 'cause
it's tied to a steadier baseline.

424
00:18:17,559 --> 00:18:21,509
Jen: So another thing that's worth
mentioning is supplements, and on

425
00:18:21,509 --> 00:18:25,689
an honest note, we, since we do sell
some supplements, did you know that?

426
00:18:25,689 --> 00:18:25,991
We sell supplements.

427
00:18:25,991 --> 00:18:26,368
I, I, I did, yes.

428
00:18:26,368 --> 00:18:26,639
Thank you for

429
00:18:28,289 --> 00:18:28,997
Chris: pointing that out.

430
00:18:28,997 --> 00:18:29,234
Um-

431
00:18:29,234 --> 00:18:29,472
Jen: I,

432
00:18:29,472 --> 00:18:32,509
Chris: I was meant to wear
my Vegetology T-shirt.

433
00:18:32,509 --> 00:18:32,623
Yeah.

434
00:18:32,623 --> 00:18:33,529
We're, we're not advertising
products, but, you know.

435
00:18:33,529 --> 00:18:33,959
Matt: Yeah, yeah.

436
00:18:34,599 --> 00:18:38,249
Jen: Okay, so for cortisol specifically,
though, the evidence is thin.

437
00:18:38,609 --> 00:18:44,869
Um, omega-3, that we sell, has a
modest signal at best, and so we'd more

438
00:18:44,889 --> 00:18:50,309
steer you to, like, healthy sleep and
routine first, and treat anything else

439
00:18:50,309 --> 00:18:52,909
as a minor extra, not the main event.

440
00:18:53,279 --> 00:18:56,809
Matt: Yeah, when you line it
all up, cortisol is tangled into

441
00:18:56,809 --> 00:19:02,189
my sleep, my energy, my mood,
and my appetite all at once.

442
00:19:02,259 --> 00:19:02,799
Jen: Mm.

443
00:19:03,169 --> 00:19:06,119
Chris: Which is exactly why you
can't treat it in isolation.

444
00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,429
So cortisol isn't just something
to push down, which is what we

445
00:19:09,499 --> 00:19:11,409
constantly see as the message.

446
00:19:11,769 --> 00:19:14,429
It's all about the timing that has
to line up with everything else.

447
00:19:14,879 --> 00:19:17,679
Jen: And that flips the whole
panic on its head, doesn't it?

448
00:19:17,699 --> 00:19:21,299
So you were never meant to
have low cortisol, you're meant

449
00:19:21,309 --> 00:19:23,279
to have well-timed cortisol.

450
00:19:23,479 --> 00:19:24,889
Matt: Love that.

451
00:19:25,079 --> 00:19:26,159
Well-timed cortisol.

452
00:19:26,169 --> 00:19:29,759
So the goal changes completely, I
think, when you understand that.

453
00:19:29,919 --> 00:19:30,289
Jen: Yeah.

454
00:19:30,819 --> 00:19:33,359
So why do we need cortisol?

455
00:19:33,779 --> 00:19:39,059
Because it fuels your brain, it holds
up your blood pressure, it keeps your

456
00:19:39,059 --> 00:19:44,669
immune system in balance, and lifts you
into the morning all on a daily rhythm.

457
00:19:44,669 --> 00:19:49,709
So the aim was never less of it, it's
the right amount at the right time.

458
00:19:50,709 --> 00:19:55,249
Matt: And the way there isn't a detox
or a gadget, which I appreciate is a

459
00:19:55,249 --> 00:19:56,819
bit of a shame to you gadget lovers.

460
00:19:56,879 --> 00:20:01,479
It's sleep, it's a bit of movement,
it's regular meals, and people hanging

461
00:20:01,479 --> 00:20:04,239
around with people you actually like.

462
00:20:04,509 --> 00:20:04,679
Yeah,

463
00:20:05,349 --> 00:20:08,289
Chris: and get those things roughly right,
and the body handles the rest beautifully.

464
00:20:08,329 --> 00:20:10,569
Although maybe the hanging
around people you like, the body

465
00:20:10,629 --> 00:20:11,699
doesn't really have a say in

466
00:20:13,979 --> 00:20:14,299
Jen: that.

467
00:20:14,399 --> 00:20:19,279
Okay, so if that has cleared a
few things up for you, follow or

468
00:20:19,299 --> 00:20:21,439
subscribe wherever you're listening.

469
00:20:21,649 --> 00:20:23,189
It genuinely helps us out.

470
00:20:23,739 --> 00:20:24,899
That's it for this week.

471
00:20:25,019 --> 00:20:28,729
Thanks so much for geeking out with
us, but for now, that's it from me.

472
00:20:28,999 --> 00:20:29,699
Chris: That's it from me.

473
00:20:30,129 --> 00:20:31,699
Matt: And that's it from me.

474
00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:32,629
Jen: Bye for now