Hi, I'm Nina underst.

I'm Anna Toonk Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness

on this episode Anna and I discuss sexuality. Take a seat clear mind and let's chat Hello,

hello.

Let's talk about six bank big now it's in my head. Yeah.

It's, uh, you know, I think salt and pepper like is someone fucking? Yeah, and I go to, because like Hell yeah, like there's tons like, What a man? What a man. I mean, there's just so many I feel like you can work in your day to day.

It's all happened TLC forever. Oh, for ever. When my dad used to go to the MTV Music Awards all the time for work. He took my mom one year, when they were still married. And they I will never forget this and salt and pepper was performing. And they brought me back. I was too young to go. And they brought me back this like pink fuzzy, like super early 90s book that they had signed for me. But it was like the MTV Music, MTV Video Music Award book. It was had pink fur on it. That's and I was like, I am so blessed.

What your will if they were still together then this is yeah, like I

mean, they got divorced when I was nine. So I must have been like seven. And the fact that I was listening to at seven or eight salt and pepper is yes, that is. That is I used to sing it in the back of my parents.

Oh, yeah. I never really listened to kid music. Like I didn't. Like my mom was like, Oh, crap, like Rafi. Yeah, my mom's like, you've heard my identity. You won't take my musical. Like I was watching

90210 Like and listening to rap. Forget that.

We Yeah, it was. It's funny though. My mom wouldn't play. She would drive carpool and would play my carpool. I was the only girl so she's like, had a car of just like wild boys. And you and she would play like smooth jazz and like, Oh,

my God, that's so funny.

It was like breakfast in Jupiter or something like that. And she's like, listen, it was that weird? Yes. Did it calm all of you also? Yes. You know, like, it's really funny. Like when I bring it up, and I'm like, what was this smooth jazz about? She's like, it seemed to soothe all of you. You know, she was also playing like Neil Young, you know, like, all this other stuff. But no, she wasn't getting played good music, right? Yeah, I think it's I think it really informed my tastes and tastes in music and maybe personality. But like, I'm any parent who makes I think a point to expose their kids to like real music, not just kid music, I think is like, cool. Yeah, get through

the whole music thing. I mean, I'll listen to it on like movies, but we don't do Yeah, we listen to people music.

I mean, I think once they're past, like, I mean, I get it. Like when they're toddler toddlers are not going to be like me or baby babies. Your you know, like, some of it also is like language development and stuff. I get there some points. Like you're not gonna be like, you're not

gonna put them to sleep to Tupac. Yeah, exactly. You're

not like, well, you're 18 months now it's time for the two pots

of time to learn about the real world. Yeah,

yeah. You know, I know there's a lot of parents out there that curse, you know, Baby shark but it's like, as someone who's found myself singing it after I've been around kids, like you just can't deny that sort of like your warmth factor. Like,

oh my god, it's or let it go. Let it go. Let it go. Let it go. Over and over and over again. Alright, so we're talking today about I'm gonna let you take this because it was my ridiculous idea. But now what I mean,

so is the champion of using the word horny. Like whenever and however I can for anything not sexual. I cannot believe you're the person who brought up the topic of sexuality as the confirmed like I was gonna about to call you the Confirm perv of this duo. But I met proof.

Yeah, yeah. And public we have to keep specifying in public not approved in private.

I mean, like, can you be approved and in private I think of approved is she couldn't be is in public.

Yeah, but I think you can be like, I guess not. Yeah, like not intersex. For sure. We're talking about sexuality.

When we're talking about sexuality. When I went to our dear friend Merriam Webster, I thought it was not Oh,

you're gonna say Williamson? I'm sorry. I can't even keep that and I was like, God.

What I went to our friend Marion Williams, no definition of sexuality, The quality or state of being sexual. The condition of having sex, be sexual activity, see expression of sexual receptivity or interest, especially when excessive. I didn't love that. So then out of curiosity, I Googled a human sexuality. And Wikipedia I thought gave us a better definition. This is a little bit of a slog, so stay with me. Human Sexuality is the way people experience and express themselves sexually. This involves biological, erotic, physical, emotional, social, or spiritual feelings and behaviors. Because it is a broad term which has varied with historical context over time, and lacks a precise definition. The biological and physical aspects of sex sexuality largely concern the human reproductive functions, including the human sexual response cycle. There's a whole lot more, but I thought that that was more hopeful because I came to sexuality. Thinking for a long time, I thought it was literally just X or who you like to have sex with, you know. And then, as I got older and got into spirituality, and people were always saying, like, sexualities and energy, sexualities and energy, and I was like, I don't understand what that really means. You know, like, it just didn't make a lot of sense to me. And then I was in this yoga class that each week was focusing on a different chakra, and it was with Holly Raimi, who actually has a podcast about tarot, if anyone's interested. I cannot think of what the name of her her podcast is called, but Holly's lovely. And I'm sure if you Google Holly Raimi? You can find it. And I did her sacral sacral chakra or a second chakra, I guess, class? Yeah. And it was all about sexuality and all these like hip openers, and all this different stuff. And I definitely felt like good in the class. And so and then I was walking to home and I was like, what a sexy world we live in. Sexy time. Wow, the everyone is so sexy. I'm so sexy. What is it? And I was like, Oh, I get it. Oh, my God. Never had experienced it that way. Like, I'd never thought of it that way. And as someone like, who I think also to sexuality, I confuse sexuality sometimes too, with sexiness, or I did when I was younger, I would get confused and think if like, something was really, you know, sexual than it was like sexuality. And that meant it was sexy. You know, like, it took me a long time to sort it all out, like what was actually what you know, just now for also for us to get to a point in society where like, so much of it means so little, you know, because it's like, we're accepting that things are a lot less finite. But I'm curious, like, did you know what the fuck sexuality was?

Like? No, absolutely not. And I actually was looking up some stuff and found the Where did it go? Hang on? Not how do I know what my sexuality is? The three aspects of sexuality. So biological, gender, gender identity, gender role and sexual orientation. I mean, I didn't know that. Who the hell taught us that? I mean, obviously now as an adult, I'm, I tried to learn about things I don't know about. So I'm more well versed this age. But no, I had no idea what it was, I think for sure. Yoga, you know, movement in general, opened my eyes to what you're talking about, which is like the energy of it, rather than, like the act of it. And what how that's very different. Right? Yeah. And how it's safe. And also like something you can embody, but not for the purpose of, you know, gaining power or, or, or just having sex, right. Like, I use my sexuality for power for a long time. And that was really the sole definition for me was like, This is my power tool. Yeah, I mean, it had a really negative connotation as I'm sure did with you for a long time because of abuse, but then once but honestly, that was blocked out of my mind for so long that like, I wasn't consciously thinking about it. But I was just trying to get my power back all the time.

Yeah, I felt like I don't I definitely think that I definitely think there was a Power aspect to it for me, but I also felt like maybe shame. I'm not sure I'm not sure how to articulate it, but it would be like, you know, like, then people would like know something about me or whatever. Like, I wasn't like a prude, but it was like, I danced a lot. And like, you know, dancers can be super sexual and like they don't they don't mean anything by it. Like, it's truly just more like, I think a different level of embodiment. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, none of them are like, I'm doing this thing thinking anyone watching is going to like, unit like, that's not what it's about its own. No, definitely. Yeah, it's so much about just like, This feels good in my body, or it feels good to move my body this way or whatever. And I was, like, always scandalized by it. And not in a judgement way, I think, admiring their freedom. I don't think I ever really felt free. You know, and I don't know if that was. I was thinking about leading up to this episode about like, societal conditioning, and how much like I didn't as a kid, like growing up, like, I kind of didn't get to have a section. Like, I didn't get to have sexuality. Like, it was very accepted with my brother. Like, we spent a lot of time in Europe. And my brother was a little perv. He was like, every beat she was trying to look at every woman topless, you know. Yeah. I mean, he was like, little little, you know, but that was like fine and joked about but like, if I had been like, checking out like, Dude,

where the dicks at mom, forget it.

Exactly. You know, they would have like, put me in therapy like, but it was like, cute for my brother. But it was like, denied with me. And like, my mom had this story about, like, changing my diaper and wiping my badge. And I was like, Ooh, that feels good. And she was like, freaked out that I was gonna be like a nympho. And I'm like, what? She was like, like, on when your dad was like, Give me a break. It like feels good to like, get air on our parts. And she's like, I mean, of course, like I was cleaning. You must have felt good for you to be clean. I'm like, Are you really worried that I was in diapers? Like, I'm clearly quite young, like, so baby. What we do women as well.

Oh, yeah. I remember watching my mom tell this story, which is so embarrassing and believe I'm even telling it. I was watching a Disney movie. I was like a little little person. And I was like, Mom, my vaginas tingling. She was like, okie dokie.

Any parent who's normal about that kind of stuff is like a real one. I don't know.

I don't think we talked I was never like, the thing is like, you're just robbed of it. When you're, you're robbed of it. Whether or when you're a woman, in my opinion, you're definitely robbed a bit, I'm sure if you are not sure like what your identity is. Because, you know, who's who's really talking to you about that? I'm not well versed. So I won't assume to know, but the only people who really have space are men. And to explore that and for it to be and it's so blatant it's an everything I mean, having a kid watch I mean, he doesn't watch any you know, trash but it's so hard to see like in superhero, you know, shows or whatever, like these women who are so so hyper sexualized these tiny, tiny ways these giant tits, and like the, the guys are just like, totally pervy. And it's just like this a fucking cartoon for kids.

So, it's so wild. So disturbing.

It's so disturbing. So but I do feel like I'm not you know, I mean, I'm so far away from like, having you know, been abused that I just really doesn't feel like it belongs to me anymore. We've talked about that. But you know, for a while for a long time, not being conscious of it and not consciously healing it, it just really like fucks with your ability to be free and to understand yourself in that way and to have like any language around it. And in my experience, and I'm really it was only when I started teaching movement that I began to embrace such a different side of my sexuality but also understand it in a like a way more holistic way and the freedom to now moving like when I teach, I'm moving around and I don't even think about what I look like because I just don't anymore But I wouldn't be so self conscious the first time I took a, you know, as an adult took a yoga class, when they were like, be free. I'm like, What do you mean? Just tell me what to do?

Yeah, it's weird. Yeah, no thanks. I've been thinking a lot I read somewhere about play is the antidote to perfectionism. And I've been thinking about that a lot. And how weird for women, it is, in terms of like, with sexuality as well, or anyone who maybe feels outside, very strict hetero normativity. Like, how hard it is to define and explore it, because it just feels so layered, you know, and it seems also very luck of the draw, like, I identify as straight. But I think sometimes I'm like, and I grew up in a pretty liberal house, but like, I grew up in a household where my mom would have been thrilled if my brother was gay, but like, would have been less thrilled, I think, if I had been a lesbian, and I remember, like, bringing that up to her once and she was like, well, the world's like, barely figured out what to do with gay men, but they truly haven't figured out what to do with gay women. I just wouldn't want your life to be harder. She's like, as a parent, you just don't want your child's life could be harder, you know? And I was like, that's kind of interesting. You No, but also fucked up. But I think of how much it like. It's so hard to explain. Like, I think people get told, like, explore your sexuality. But like, what does that mean? You know, like, go out and bone in the world? No, I don't think so. You know, but even saying

that to us, like, Who told you to do that? I don't think people are told that.

Um, I mean, I've been told that in like, in the healing and spiritual community, for sure. No, but I mean, growing up. No, no, I mean, occasionally, I think a woman who thought she was like, having a hot take, you know, but like, cool, but how do you do that? Like, I think by the time you're being encouraged and like, it's ethical to, like, suggest someone have sex and that you're old enough to be able to handle it. Like people, like explore it, go for it. And it's like, there's no conversation around, like, what might impede that, you know? Or like, where are you even at? How do you even take your like, sexuality, like, temperature? How do you you know, like, I remember one of the best things, I heard it as a kid or as a teenager, when I was like, sort of becoming more interested in sex and being sexually active. Like, it seemed like, you know, like, maybe that was on the horizon. You know, at long last, I'm like, 16 my God, you know, you're like, finally. Yeah, here. It's

here.

Yeah. Like, you haven't even been around two decades, relax, you know, but I, somebody was like, if you're not mature enough to buy condoms, you're not mature enough to have sex? And that became my like, check in with myself of like, did I feel mature enough to like, go buy condoms? Did I feel mature enough to like, go buy a pregnancy test if that was necessary? like, Whoa, did I feel mature enough to deal with everything that went with sex? You know? And I feel like so much of the conversation was more about about the the dumb shit, the morality, the like, you know, you don't want to like knock, you don't want too many numbers. Like, I mean, I grew up in a time where it was like, We accepted, I probably wasn't going to be a virgin at marriage. However, it's like, we're not going to really talk about what you're doing. You know, and we're not going to really give you any guidance or instruction, certainly no discussion of like, pleasure. You know, like, that didn't come up until like my mid 20s. You know, of like, people being like, oh, yeah, you should like enjoy.

It should not be faking.

Oh my god. Do you know how many orgasms? I faked? I mean, like, probably a quadrillion. I mean, oh, that's a

mean soname. Like, so that was one guy. This guy for a long time. Like we he was never my boyfriend. But we had text for a long time. Never once, not once. I'm like, Nina. What were you doing? Like? Like, it was never good for you. Like, but there was no conversation. And also, it's just like, I feel like I just made so many. I don't want to call mistakes but like missteps, because I had no idea what I was even looking for or what was possible or what was, you know, yeah, but what I deserved. Yes, we don't talk to women about that. We don't care. about them, and so men don't care about them. I mean, if you're having heterosexual sex, which leads me to my next question or point as well, I remember I'm like, again, I cannot believe I'm saying this out loud. But I remember being I guess it was like a little after high school, probably a freshman in college. And I was never like, interested in women. But I, my friend and I were like, just something was a Bruin. And we ended up hooking up one night and I remember being so terrified that somebody was going to find out like, Oh, my, yes, I was terrified. Like, I didn't want to be in the same room with her. And I didn't want anyone to know at all. I don't have like, my friends. I don't think we're not really that close anymore. Like still don't know to this day. surprise everyone, but you're finding on on a podcast, which I'm sure you've found out a lot about me. But I it How sad. How sad like I am when people think I was lesbian?

Was that still a thing? I mean, because you and I are five years apart, which sometimes I have a weird time figuring out, you know, like, reference wise, like, yeah, definitely feel like, well, like when I was in high school, nobody was gay or out. No one was out, you know? I'm sure like,

one theater kid was like out and you know, you knew him right? Like you were the kid who was gay or who's like brave enough to be gay. My it's funny because I grew up in such an in house, my uncle's gay and like, was out from when I was like, very young, maybe even born. So when my friends would come over, or they weren't my friends, they were assholes. But when I hung out with these students, these two checks, they're literally Well, one of them said the other one's the devil. But I digress. So they would come over in like, seventh eighth grade. And they would be like, you know, when the thing was like, that's gay. Yeah, so gay. And my mom would call them out every single time. We do not say that in my house. We do not take like, and I remember being like, oh, yeah, like you did not fuck around with that shit in my house. Like you did not say anything. Racist. You did not say anything. I mean, I don't know anybody that was like, outwardly racist, thankfully. But, like, stuff like that. That was I mean, people were dropping like, I don't want to say it, but like fat? Yeah, at the time, you know? Oh, yeah. And so I was always really nervous. With those two horror shows that I was only friends with for like, a year and a half. I was so nervous to even have them over because they knew that something was trash was going to come out of their mouth. And my mom was going to be like, Who the fuck are these kids? You know? Yeah. So that was not accepted. But it was interesting, because I can't believe Yeah, how how bad it was for, for us at that time. Even Right. Like, yeah, so, so close minded. And yeah.

Think of how much stuff I sort of did in secret, as well. Like, I hooked up with women. And I mean, no, but I mean, I had a kind of a significant affair with a woman, you know, lying on your deathbed. I did in my early 20s. And or what do you mean affair? She was married, but in an open relationship. And she I don't know. It's like, funny now when I think about it, like she seemed. I think she was like, in her mid 40s. Like, I knew she was older than me that can't remember. And you were in your 20, early 20s. Yeah, she was like, so glamorous. And I'm gonna like teach you things. And

oh, my God, I

don't I certainly dead.

Oh, my Yeah, I couldn't like I could never go near a vagina egg.

I think like, and I think about, like, for me, like, attraction is so energy based that I think like, it never made sense for me to think of it as like, you're attracted to this or that, you know, like, because I think I would be attracted to women's and hence when I was younger, but like, I didn't know what it was. And I don't know that it was sexual. But I would just be sort of like, I do think even with friends, like we have chemistry with people, like we're just attracted to people. And like, I think that there was so much like gay panic in the 90s and early 2000s. That it's like, you didn't even get to sort of, like suss that out. You know, it was either sort of like, forbidden and like oh, what's like, what are we doing? No one can find out or you were like making big statements. I don't I don't know that. Oh, true. I think About a lot of my friends from college also came out later, you know? And that really, like, fucked with me a bit where I was like, Am I allowed to be in? And I don't know, like, a ton of them didn't either. I mean all the time, I'd be like, I'm pretty sure I would know, you know,

you're like in the shower like scrubbing your head, you're like,

it's true. I'm like, I'm pretty sure if I was like, I just want so much veg, like, I would know, I would you would know you would setting myself up for that, you know, you would want me online and Senator. Yeah, I would, I would be. And I've, like I've tried in the past you like frustrated with men like on Tinder or something I've like changed my settings to be like everybody, you know, because I'm like, I would never want to miss out on someone incredible, or for me your love or whatever. And I was just like, hung up on gender, you know. But that stuff that makes you want to, like, show up continually or be in a relationship or like, build a life with someone. I've only had those feelings with men. But my question is, am I really straight? Is that true? Do I really want that with men? Or was I so indoctrinated by society? I just don't know. But I think considering I mean, I've never been in a relationship with a woman. But you know, I think I'm certainly close enough and have intimate relationships with enough women to know that. If I longed for a life with a woman, I think I would know by now, you know, I write I mean, I know so much else about myself, I assume I would know that. But I give the use and the people now who are like, really pushing that and really pushing that exploration and normalization, you know, like, I mean, as much as like, men get to have a lot of space in the sexuality conversation. They also get really hampered by it, that it's like true, hetero or bust, you know, like,

and like the, the, you know, assumption that all of their sex drives are like beyond Yes, yes. Which is Have you

ever dated someone without us? Who who I've dated a couple what they did to men who struggled with depression, and it would kill their sex drive

depression, there is no sex with depression. It goes by man that I'm dead. Yeah, but ya know,

and that booked with me, Oh, yeah. So much. Oh, my gosh, like, hold? What you're telling me that, like, it's not about you. It's not about my attraction to you. It's, it's like, I'm just not interested. You know, which obviously, I could understand. There's times I've not been, uh, you know, I've not been interested in sex. But I would be like, I've told that y'all wanted all the time.

Exactly. You're a you're a man, you should oh, you should just see me and instantly want to have sex with me. Right? The other thing I remember vividly having sex with one with my high school, my high school boyfriend or I dated for like, five years. And there was a moment when he first of all the fact that we just like thought we could have sex, like, what were we doing? Like, we had no idea what we were doing. It's just sad. Anyway, I remember him grabbing my wrist once and he wasn't doing it in like a violent, aggressive way. But I remember having such a vividly like, I freaked out. And interesting. Yeah, I freaked out. And I'll never forget it. And at that time, I mean, I don't know. I just, I was like, danger, danger, danger. It was crazy. My body just was like, but he was someone that shaped a lot of like, my expectations, I think was about like, how often men want to have sex, blah, blah, blah. You know, when you get to the point with somebody who you're dating who you're like, I'd rather sit on a cactus and have sex with you. Like, I'm just so you know that feeling? Yeah,

you're like, I'd rather go door to door in my building and offer to clean bathrooms then

like, I know, I need to break up but like, I just can't, I haven't yet. And like the thought of having sex with you is repulsive. Do you know what I'm talking about?

I'm familiar with that. I may have come across that feeling perhaps?

Well, great. So when I we had dated for a long time, and when we first dated, I did want to have sex with him. And then when I got back together with him, which is all always like fabulous idea. I was like, I'd rather die. And also you're mean and I just like I just like realize you're

like the de escalation like I'd rather die also You're mean.

And we were at his we got back together when I was like in my 20s, early 20s. And we were in New York together and then his roommate was in the other in his room, and we could hear him having sex with this girl. And it was it was, I mean, first of all, like mortifying, I'm mortified. Are you? Okay? Can you picture me? I'm dying inside. Like, I'm just like, please make this stop. Like,

I can't believe you weren't like, we have to get a hotel.

Oh my god, I was so horrified. And like, I just was so embarrassed. And he was like, pressuring me, like, see, they have sex all the time, like in my 20s. And I was just like, you suck. Like, that's why I'm not having sex with you. I'm not attracted you because you suck. So anyway, I eventually broke up with him. But my point was, it's just so it's just these formative years, when you're having sex with someone and you're young, and in there, these formative years, it's like, it can be so damaging. And most of the time it is because that just shapes so much of what you think about sex and like, you know, who you have sex with and how you have sex with them. It's just been it's a lot on Ravel, you know. And my husband has been like, very crucial and being in my life, like, oh, wow, this is like a very healthy relationship. And this, this is not I think I told you about this. Maybe I said it on the podcast. But like, when I first started dating him, I sent him a picture, not of like, my ass or anything. But I sent him a picture when I was away and like, a little bit sloshed. And he's like, I just want to see like your face. And I was like, okay, mortifying, and I will know, I was horrified. But also like, Okay, your goal? And yeah, it was so embarrassing. And then like, why am I embarrassed, but I'm embarrassed because I'm, I was literally just following something that I thought I should do some like, you know, invisible, like rule book about how to entice a man, which is, like, disgusting, and so not who I am. But it was just this moment of week. And I was like, Why did I do that? I mean, I think it can

be fun. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But like, I think like, what I was thinking, what came to mind when you're talking as I wish someone had taught me that my sexuality is mine, then it's not about what men want. It's not about like, what anybody wants, you know, like, we grew up in a time with the assumption was, you're straight, so we're going to just only educate you and indoctrinate you from the place of your straight. But I wish that like, it's like, I was afraid of like, fucking up or, like, devaluing myself or what, like, but what about me, like, there was such a fear to like, I started dating this guy after my dad died, and everybody like, hated him was very worried that I was like, going down a path and all this stuff. But there was this tone of like, you're gonna like, like, cheapen yourself or something. Or there was this like, tainted? Yeah, like, it was like a weird after school special. Like, she's the girl whose fathers died. And now she's gonna try to cope through these bad boys are so easy to like, it was so weird. And like, I was being gossiped about, like, by my family, and I wish someone had pulled me to the side and been like, hey, you know, like, here's a couple things that could be going on, you know, or, like, you know, like, you're in pain, and you're a teenager, this is sort of, like, you know, like, the worst meeting of all these worlds, you know, and, or something, you know, like, I remember when I thought I was ready to have sex, and then I tried it, and then I realized I wasn't and like, luckily, that guy listened to me. But like, That was scary. And I definitely had not been given any instruction or guidance. Anything of how to say like, No, I'm not reading, you know, like, no, like, I changed my mind. Like, I mean, this is why I also get so frustrated when a lot of like, the men in my life wouldn't be like, Oh, my, I'm just sure. They're like, when they hear stories, and I'm like, do you know I, I don't have one female friend who doesn't have a fucked up story about something and Zach's zero, like, zero, like, that's a problem. Like if I if everyone I know has some sort of issue, then like, what? Like, Why don't y'all know about it? And you

know, who have really fucked up sexual experiences, but you know, like, not as many

doesn't happen, because yeah, you know, more than anything because I think that oh, I'm sure it's kind of glossed over in a different way but like, I just wish that like agency was taught in terms of like your sexually is yours, whether that's men like you don't have to like prove your masculinity through trying to just like bone the world, you know, or women you don't like who you sleep with or how you'd like how many you sleep with, like doesn't change like your value as a person like, there's just room for so much expansion across As the board in terms of the

congregation, it's true. I mean, it's true. And there's so many different, you know, avenues of like, that we just we have not done well, overall in society with teaching it. I mean, the only class that we had was called human sexuality. And it was like, here's your tampon. And that was pretty much it. You know, they didn't talk about anything. Like,

yeah, we had a brief thing in health, it was just sort of like, here's the bits, you know, like, I remember the vans difference, you know, like, certain things, but it wasn't. I don't even think I mean, I don't think there was anything practical discuss. I have a question for you. If sexuality wasn't really being discussed, or sex or anything, what about masturbation? Oh, my

God, why I hate you.

I didn't, I was never brought up in terms of never. And until I was done, I think in college, it was never brought up to me ever. Never. And I remember I was with an older friend of mine, shout out to Lisa. And she was like, I gotta like, we were in Atlanta. And she was like, something like, from the pleasure chest. And I was like, Why did like people go there? You know, I was just like, but I was very intrigued. And she was like, buying stuff. I mean, she was married, you know? And I was like, one and she was like, yeah, like, you know, vibrators and that. And like, I was like, everyone needs an older person in their life who can like, hold them

up? And no one has ever talked to me about that. Never. Ever. I remember. There was a book that we had, and my mom, like, gave it to me, maybe like, flip through a couple pages. Like that was the extent of it. When I told her I lost my virginity she hysterically cried. And was like, fine. I told her. I did. She asked me and I didn't lie.

Wow. I need to know. I was thinking I was

15 years old. just disgusting. I mean, I'm like, oh, young. It was so young. And he was fuckin basket case. And I'm pretty sure he was good. I think he came out later. But anyway, he was full on like, not mentally stable. And then was Jimi Hendrix. Sorry, I'm outing you. And

you've added Jimi Hendrix before. You know what?

Name I totally forgot. I have what I haven't told you about losing my virginity before on the podcast. Yeah, I have.

No Oh, okay. I was laughing like yeah, like Shawshank like, no, no. I forget what Jimi Hendrix came up in the past. But he was

on the football team, which again, will and I went to his house, which was down the street, and we had sex for about three seconds. I did. Yeah, I was doing and I didn't really know, I didn't know why I was bleeding. Also fun. I mean, people have been like talked at, like, ad nauseam about, you know, popping your cherry, which was like both delightful conversation to be around. So I did have some idea of what was happening, but it was awful. Instantly. I like was so grossed out. And then my mom picked me up. And well actually, let me go back. My mom was downstairs like honking the horn, like, as I Oh, yeah. As I was like, trying to extricate myself from the three minute sex. And I was like, this is it's gotta be wrong. This can't be it. Because it's really not cool. And I went home, went home. And she I think she just like knew, like, she was like, did you have sex with him? And I was like, Yeah, I did. And she just burst into tears, but we didn't talk about it. Sorry, mom. And not that I remember. You know, I did block out a lot from our childhood. So maybe we did, but I really don't think we're done.

And I would burst into tears to like, what didn't you have your 15 year old daughter?

1,000%. But I would have liked to have somebody like talk to me about it. I don't think that was like, we didn't talk about that stuff. Which was so weird. Because my parents talk about a lot of things, but we did not talk about sex. It wasn't like yeah, off limits. Like, like, we knew people had it, but you weren't wasn't like some weird Christian environment, but they weren't. Hey, let's talk about sex now.

Yeah, it wasn't forbidden or like, you know, but my mom just like didn't want to go there. You know, I mean, my dad was like, Absolutely not like I'm the dad I wouldn't. I would be a pervert if I was trying to, you know, like it, he would probably talk to my brother about it, but not me, you know? And my mom, I don't know, like, it's interesting even now sometimes which I get, but I'm like, I mean, especially, I guess with the political climate we're in now with, you know, Roe versus Wade being threatened and things like that, you know, we're once again being reminded that, like, women aren't regarded as, I don't know, fully sovereign beings, you know, that we're still that, like, something I come back to all the time when I rewind the tape of of my, I guess, childhood. I'm like, why was no one trying to, like, instill value in me, you know, like, why was that never the way anything was discussed? You know, in terms of like, you don't owe people this, like, you don't owe people pretty You don't owe people do you know, like, whatever. And I'm, like, will cause like, we're still making that argument. We're still saying, you know, women don't owe people things, you know, we don't owe the motherhood, we don't owe them you know, like that, of course, that I wonder if your mom was upset, not so much that, that you'd had sex or whatever, but like, that. I think a lot of parents are like, I'll get around to it. Yeah. And forget how fashion to like, move. Yeah, the urgency you feel as a teenager. I think like a lot of parents, and I hear it with some of my friends now. Like, my friend, Megan had texted me and was like, I got asked about puberty, you know? And I was like, Whoa, I was like, What do you say, you know, and her daughter's age. And she's like, she more obviously, I think was just like, trying to kind of confirm, deny, like, what she'd heard, like, you know, on the playground type of stuff. She's like, she didn't really want to know, you know, my mom gave me a book when I was really young, about like how babies were made. And she's like, You handed it back to me and said, you never wanted to talk.

You're like, once I saw the hairy penis, I was out. I mean, Milo asked me about not sex, but like, he's like, he's got a penis. He knows it. He's like, wants to, like, you know, touch it. Well, I

had the pleasure of being there when it was like when OCD and little boys being obsessed with their penis collide. Because so my mom keeps touching his penis. And I can see Nina is like, it's like, two part like one. She's like, why, like, come on, you know? And two, she's like, worried. And so once she had ascertained that the penis was fine, you know, like, it's been checked. It's been looked at, I think maybe we even got a flashlight on it from an iPhone. Like, we're positive. Nothing's wrong with the BB. But he figured out he wanted it just lined up.

Just wanted it to be standing up the right way. Yep.

And things secure. Yep, secure,

kind of like,

you can't fault him for that. Oh,

I mean, I don't ever want him to feel weird about it. And then there are like, moments where I'm like, I like, I think you've done all you like can do right now with that. So maybe we can put it away until later. But he also does this thing where he's like, I love boobs. And I'm like, okay, but you love like, drinking out of this, like, I don't want you to, like, you know, become obsessed with boobs. And maybe that's my, you know, I just I'm so hyper aware and conscious of like, raising him to be a good man. And if maybe he doesn't even like women, you know, I don't know, maybe like both. I don't care. But it's more like I just always want to instill you know, respect, and we talk a lot about this is my body. This is your body. Like, you have to ask mommy to touch you know, to like, touch her boob. You can't just like grab my boob and pop it out. You know, like when he was breastfeeding all the time. He's he's really not anymore at all, but that he would just like grab it, you know? And obviously that's fine. But now these four were talking a lot about you know, consent in that way and just like this is yours. This is mine. Like this is how we it's our act but

tricky. I feel like to teach boundaries and consent without introducing shame.

Exactly. And he I can tell he does not feel any shame about bodies manaan whatsoever. So I hope that that continues but he feels zero shame about anything. He doesn't even think I mean, yeah, he's like, naked and free and just like, all good. He's talking about his dad's penis. Sorry, why? And like you

Oh, that's my favorite things though. Like when kids like, it is so refreshing to see bodies and stuff like to hear it like, through that, you know, like, and their lack of judgment, you know, when they're just like, or like, I don't know, like, it just cracks me up when you know, or when they're going through those phases and are just like, I have a penis, do you have a penis? And you're like, Nope, I don't and they're like, cool. Like, really?

No, totally love it. And you know what, it just really keeps me just out of shame to like, it's like, I remember when my parents were over. And at first, I'd be like, I really don't want to talk about stuff like in front of my parents, you know? Yeah, like, you know, like, grew up. Yeah, so now there's like a book, my dad gave him this giant book of like, everything, like every tree every. And he's like, he's like, the human bodies in there. I was like, what he's like, is it okay, like, I was like, that they're naked, like, my child is currently naked, like, totally fine. But it's actually great. Because there's there you know, the bodies. And one thing that did happen the other day to us that I definitely want to touch on just in general. But I'm, like I said zero expert. And I don't want to butcher anything or be offensive in any way. But um, we were getting coffee. And there's a lot of non binary people and Hudson, like, a lot, which I love. And yeah, there's a person who works at the coffee shop, and they dress in, like tank top or like this, like, but I think he was born a man. And so Milo asked the other day, like, is that a boy or girl? And I was like, I don't know, like, you know, how they identify, you can, you can always ask somebody, like, what are your pronouns? And, but I just, it was such a, he asked, which I really loved. And he wasn't like, there was no judgment or anything. It was just like, he just wanted to know, like, what was like, cool, you know, but do I? Where do I go with that? You know?

Yeah, I think sometimes, it can be so interesting, with kids to see where objectivity like, like, not stressing, and literally taking it with the purity, it's asked with, like, can help all of us, you know, like, just hearing sort of, like Kid musings or kid logic sometimes, like, it really makes you see how much like judgment or projection or whatever goes on in adulthood, you know, of like, he's literally just trying to understand and learn the world. He doesn't care whether or not that person's a boy or a girl, you know, like, he's like, I'm four, I'm kind of learning some stuff, like, you know, like, he's trying to just put it in his bank, you know, like, and I think that that can be interesting about bodies, like, I have a bunch of friends who have definitely had their kids like squish their bellies and be like, I love your belly squishy, and they're like, Oh, I wanted to die. But I'm like, but your child really was saying, saying your belly gives me comfort. You know, like, Wait,

so they were upset that their kids yeah, about them? Oh, that's,

I mean, they weren't really upset about what their kid was. And they were just sort of like, well, you know, like, like, hurt your feelings don't mean to, you know, type of thing. You know? Yeah.

Milo told me I smell disgusting the other day. It's like, I was like, yeah, maybe I need to shower but like, disgusting. A little bit aggressive.

Discussing, not like a week, but okay, laying stones. So, we remember very humble, but I think like, sometimes it can be helpful for all the like, messaging or like, inviting people to explore their own sexualities and stuff. Like, I think it's like anything else. Like, if you think brain, like, if you can bring things back to basics, and just kind of go with, like, what feels good, you know, and like, not assign a lot of meaning to that you can learn a lot about yourself, you know, and, like, learn a lot about, I remember, like, at one point when I was like, I'm really going to, I felt like pleasure was threatening for me, so that I tend tended to lean into like, indulgence versus pleasure. And I was like, what if I prioritize pleasure in my life, you know, like, what would that shift? And it was like, really interesting. You know, that it's like we're kind of taught if you give into that Like, you'll be lost to it, you know, or whatever. And I actually found, it's like, yeah, pleasure, like, lots of things that are harder and more real, like, we're given this messaging, they're bad or scary or wrong, but like, it kind of corrected all this other stuff in my life, you know that, like, when I really go to what feels good and what works for me, you have to block out all that messaging, you have to block out other people's opinions. And you have to be really in your body, and in your physical experience to know what's working and what isn't. That's hard. And it's scary, and it's really kind of flying blind. But like, that's where I found, I figured a lot out, and would offer that up to anyone who's like, I don't know, I don't know where to begin. I also think we're in a day and age too, if you're questioning your sexuality, like to lean into that. I'm a big fan of Molly Weissenberg was a really talented writer who was married, had a child and then was like, I don't think I'm straight. And

wait, she thinks or doesn't think didn't think or she wasn't think, okay, got

it. And now and came in, came out and wrote a book about her experience. The the fixed stars, and is since remarried to a non binary, you know, person who first when they met, I think, was identifying. I can't remember what ash identified, I think when they first got together, identified as a woman and a lesbian, but now is a non binary person. And I'm not really sure how to say that gracefully. So if anyone's offended, I'm not trying to be offensive.

I'm googling it right now.

Yeah, I'm like, I don't know. I mean, I'm trying to. Yeah, I'm trying to

be more fully male or female, which, yeah, like people. Yeah. non binary.

Yeah. And I've been a fan of Molly's work for a long time, she had the blog orange yet. So it was like, wild to watch someone you don't like, go through that live and talk about it, and then write a book about it and stuff like that. So I would say like, if you strayed, by somewhere in between no clue, like, you can always explore your sexuality and do it in a multitude of ways. It doesn't have to be about JSX.

Totally. And also, I think, I hope that most people listening to this are open to, you know, things that they don't understand people they don't understand, or, you know, knowledge, they don't have an eye, it is uncomfortable to not know exactly what to say or exactly how to say it. But it's important that we still try and we learn and we ask questions, or we fucking google it, or read or, you know, do whatever we can to be good people and understand that everybody's not like us. And that's why and that's a good thing, right? Especially with rights being attacked, you know, left and right for trans kids. And there's just no reprieve for that community. I think between like, the high murder rates and suicide and children being you know, not being able to play sports. It's just, I think we need to be constantly trying to understand what we don't know.

Yeah, the more space we make for everyone, you know, we all benefit. Yeah, the more we recognize and

understand ourselves, you know, not because it's like for selfish gain. But like, it's so important. You understand yourself so much better when you explore the way other people are. And don't let it you know, mean anything about you like, I feel like all these wacky, like, right wing, wing nuts are like, most of them have to have, like some deep, deep, deep labor press repressed feelings, because why do you feel attacked by someone's existence? mere existence?

Oh, Mike. I mean, the amount of men who seemed to really think being gay or trans, is contagious is is worrisome. And the amount of men who are so worried about gayness I'm like, the more you pretest the more I think you want a dick in your mouth. So

and then like, just like, oh, do that. We always sell it. And like, go do it. 100

like, leave it alone. Yeah, it's just everybody. Find that tick, you know. Get it,

get it. Get it, get it.

I hope everyone will tell us when they lost their virginity. Ain't

wasn't as friggin awful and then you think he definitely told like everybody of course, which I was worse yet, like, it's a real piece of

this is also like what so hard like, of course he did and then we'd like wonder why we aren't like, I don't know what it feels like a free sexual being. And it's like, because high school is the worst America is the worst.

No, it's the worst. And then of course, he's like, you know, getting the high fives. And of course, it's like, oh, who else will she sleep with?

It's like, exactly. And now you're marked as a girl who will have sex, you know, like, yep. And that's,

that's how we roll here in these parts. So for anybody who's wondering why I'm homeschooling my child just fucking refer back to your childhood and let me know.

I'd really invite to add more back to

your anyhow teach their own. Thanks for chatting with us. That wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be.

No,

by Friday,

all very sexy. Bye.

That's all for today's episode.

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