1 00:00:02,113 --> 00:00:05,953 Jeremy: Welcome to Base Camp, where we equip Christians to be able to go into 2 00:00:05,953 --> 00:00:08,593 the darkest places with the gospel. 3 00:00:08,803 --> 00:00:14,993 We are kicking off a new set of questions, topics. 4 00:00:15,033 --> 00:00:18,183 And I'm here with my good friend Mike Collins. 5 00:00:18,223 --> 00:00:21,503 Mike is jumping in to the ATAP team. 6 00:00:21,903 --> 00:00:26,433 And is going to begin producing our podcast, but he's also going to be the 7 00:00:26,433 --> 00:00:30,283 co host because as long as I've known Mike, he's always had interesting things 8 00:00:30,283 --> 00:00:32,393 to say about pretty much everything. 9 00:00:32,443 --> 00:00:36,413 Mike serves as the kids pastor at my church element church in forest city, 10 00:00:36,413 --> 00:00:40,553 North Carolina, and also serves as the operations director for Psalm 68 11 00:00:40,573 --> 00:00:45,713 five ministries and is an all around awesome guy to talk to you, Mike. 12 00:00:45,743 --> 00:00:46,783 I'm glad to have you 13 00:00:47,178 --> 00:00:47,778 Mikel: Thanks. 14 00:00:48,048 --> 00:00:49,038 I'm really glad to be here. 15 00:00:49,038 --> 00:00:52,608 I'm excited to see where the podcast goes and, and see how I can help out. 16 00:00:52,658 --> 00:00:55,858 Jeremy: I'm sure you can help out a lot because the podcast has always been 17 00:00:55,858 --> 00:00:57,808 really successful, but I just never do it. 18 00:00:57,898 --> 00:00:59,588 And so it's going to be cool to have you. 19 00:00:59,688 --> 00:01:04,808 Mike is, like I said, all around intellectual hard worker. 20 00:01:05,218 --> 00:01:08,708 He comes from a background of kids ministry, camp ministry, 21 00:01:08,708 --> 00:01:10,808 grew up here in our small town. 22 00:01:11,208 --> 00:01:15,498 At one of the best Christian camps that I've ever been around and has an amazing 23 00:01:15,508 --> 00:01:18,068 gift for teaching also is a great writer. 24 00:01:18,338 --> 00:01:21,878 He wrote an article for ATAP that we're actually going to be talking 25 00:01:21,888 --> 00:01:25,888 about today, at least in referencing, and it's available on the ATAP 26 00:01:25,898 --> 00:01:27,328 website, all things, all people. 27 00:01:27,508 --> 00:01:27,938 org. 28 00:01:27,938 --> 00:01:33,062 And it's titled post modern post modernity relativism and truth, which is sort of the 29 00:01:33,062 --> 00:01:36,928 springboard for our conversation today, which really centers around the question, 30 00:01:36,998 --> 00:01:42,168 as we look to have Conversations with people who might be far from God, people 31 00:01:42,168 --> 00:01:46,428 from other religions, and especially with the topics today, people who maybe 32 00:01:46,428 --> 00:01:51,008 they're not religious, but it all comes back to what do you believe is true? 33 00:01:51,008 --> 00:01:54,768 Do you even believe that there is such a thing as truth? 34 00:01:54,768 --> 00:01:57,408 And Mike, when you wrote this article is, I mean, it's really short 35 00:01:57,408 --> 00:02:00,528 blog article is actually available first on your website and I just. 36 00:02:00,863 --> 00:02:01,543 Stole it 37 00:02:01,883 --> 00:02:05,103 and with your permission and send it out to ATAPs people. 38 00:02:05,103 --> 00:02:10,963 But you start off with this story of talking to a guy from a pretty different 39 00:02:10,963 --> 00:02:14,903 worldview background about what he believed in, about truth in general. 40 00:02:15,283 --> 00:02:16,203 And I love that story. 41 00:02:16,203 --> 00:02:19,633 So for, for listeners who haven't read the article yet, go ahead and 42 00:02:19,633 --> 00:02:21,823 kind of recap your experience for us. 43 00:02:21,838 --> 00:02:26,988 Mikel: Yeah, so back in 2017 I was about 20 years old and I took a job 44 00:02:26,998 --> 00:02:29,208 working at a YMCA as a lifeguard. 45 00:02:29,248 --> 00:02:33,748 And I was the only Christian that was working there, but I got along with 46 00:02:33,748 --> 00:02:36,008 everybody great, really good friends. 47 00:02:36,158 --> 00:02:40,282 And about halfway through my time there, this new lifeguard came 48 00:02:40,282 --> 00:02:42,942 on who was a hardcore atheist. 49 00:02:42,952 --> 00:02:49,052 Like, he told me, his goal with his life was to disprove Christianity, but 50 00:02:49,052 --> 00:02:50,892 he was a very friendly guy as well. 51 00:02:50,902 --> 00:02:56,092 So he and I He loved to debate and discuss and have conversations about 52 00:02:56,102 --> 00:03:00,262 God, and he'd grown up as a Christian and then walked away from the faith 53 00:03:00,282 --> 00:03:01,812 a couple years before I met him. 54 00:03:01,812 --> 00:03:03,952 He actually had a cross tattoo on his shoulder. 55 00:03:04,352 --> 00:03:07,082 And so we would just talk and debate all the time. 56 00:03:07,182 --> 00:03:09,432 And he was kind of the new guy. 57 00:03:09,432 --> 00:03:14,732 I had a lot of friends there, . And we were sitting back in the break room. 58 00:03:15,147 --> 00:03:19,397 Having discussion about God in some capacity and within 59 00:03:19,427 --> 00:03:21,277 earshot of the other lifeguards. 60 00:03:21,797 --> 00:03:25,937 And then, it was my turn to go up and watch the pool, so I walked out 61 00:03:25,937 --> 00:03:27,617 there and was watching the kids swim. 62 00:03:27,617 --> 00:03:29,817 And one of my friends, who was a lifeguard who had been listening 63 00:03:29,827 --> 00:03:33,687 to our conversation, came up to me and he had this concerned look. 64 00:03:34,087 --> 00:03:34,967 I was like, what's going on? 65 00:03:34,967 --> 00:03:38,767 And he, he looks at me and he's like, Hey, was he, are you okay? 66 00:03:38,767 --> 00:03:40,897 Was he trying to tell you that you were wrong? 67 00:03:41,297 --> 00:03:44,267 And the question caught me so off guard. 68 00:03:44,287 --> 00:03:47,427 Cause it's like, well, yeah, I mean, I was trying to tell him that that 69 00:03:47,427 --> 00:03:49,187 was the point of the conversation. 70 00:03:49,247 --> 00:03:49,737 But. 71 00:03:50,062 --> 00:03:53,032 I could tell that he, that was a big deal to him. 72 00:03:53,032 --> 00:03:56,862 He, my friend was genuinely worried that, that I was in some sort 73 00:03:56,862 --> 00:03:58,662 of emotional turmoil over this. 74 00:03:58,702 --> 00:04:01,072 And I said, it's fine. 75 00:04:01,072 --> 00:04:02,762 Everything's, everything's fine. 76 00:04:02,762 --> 00:04:05,582 And he said, Oh, okay. 77 00:04:05,602 --> 00:04:07,862 And I was like, yeah, you know, it's all good. 78 00:04:07,862 --> 00:04:12,532 And he wasn't completely set at ease, but he wasn't gonna go and 79 00:04:12,532 --> 00:04:14,572 punch the guy or anything anymore. 80 00:04:14,992 --> 00:04:19,482 But it was so strange to me because it was the first time that I'd ever 81 00:04:19,482 --> 00:04:23,742 encountered this postmodern view that a lot of people have where it's, 82 00:04:23,742 --> 00:04:29,182 it's hateful and intolerant to try to have a conversation about belief with 83 00:04:29,182 --> 00:04:30,772 somebody if you disagree with them. 84 00:04:31,172 --> 00:04:31,412 Jeremy: Yeah. 85 00:04:31,417 --> 00:04:35,402 It, when I read the article and I've had a lot of conversations, at least somewhat 86 00:04:35,402 --> 00:04:37,952 similar, I've not quite had as many. 87 00:04:38,547 --> 00:04:42,427 That ended where you have somebody presumably who maybe they agreed with 88 00:04:42,427 --> 00:04:46,407 you Maybe they didn't but they were genuinely concerned that you had been 89 00:04:46,407 --> 00:04:50,737 offended or in some sense violated What's funny is when I think about? 90 00:04:51,137 --> 00:04:54,737 The conversation you were having with the guy who's an atheist like I Know 91 00:04:54,737 --> 00:04:58,597 for me and probably some people who listen to this podcast follow a tap 92 00:04:58,997 --> 00:05:00,277 And I think you're somewhat similar. 93 00:05:00,327 --> 00:05:01,637 I enjoy those conversations. 94 00:05:01,647 --> 00:05:04,617 I have a much easier time sometimes talking to people who, 95 00:05:05,287 --> 00:05:06,847 who drastically disagree with me. 96 00:05:07,037 --> 00:05:10,497 And when I, when I see videos of guys like Christopher Hitchens or do you, 97 00:05:10,497 --> 00:05:11,437 do you know Christopher Hitchens? 98 00:05:11,447 --> 00:05:12,907 Yeah, obviously not personally. 99 00:05:12,927 --> 00:05:16,347 but, um, But Christopher Hitchens, for a long time was the end all be 100 00:05:16,347 --> 00:05:18,127 all of atheist intellectualism. 101 00:05:18,267 --> 00:05:20,807 And I always thought , man, I would have really liked to have 102 00:05:20,807 --> 00:05:22,247 hung out with him and talk to him. 103 00:05:22,277 --> 00:05:24,477 And I've heard a lot of Christians kind of say the same thing. 104 00:05:24,947 --> 00:05:27,316 Mikel: Kind of say the same thing. 105 00:05:27,316 --> 00:05:28,105 Yeah, like, 106 00:05:28,309 --> 00:05:28,509 Jeremy: Yeah. 107 00:05:28,509 --> 00:05:31,369 Like what's funny, the difference, in the article you, you make mentioned 108 00:05:31,599 --> 00:05:33,419 briefly of a guy like Richard Dawkins. 109 00:05:33,449 --> 00:05:37,422 But I always like, when I look at Hitchens as opposed to Dawkins 110 00:05:37,422 --> 00:05:40,042 and some of these other people, I was like, no, I think he'd be fun. 111 00:05:40,122 --> 00:05:43,162 Like, I think he'd be fun to talk with, even though he really hated, he really 112 00:05:43,162 --> 00:05:44,912 hated Christianity and theism in general. 113 00:05:45,352 --> 00:05:47,312 When, when we talk about postmodernism and postmodernism, 114 00:05:48,102 --> 00:05:51,912 The title itself doesn't really tell you what we're referring to when 115 00:05:51,912 --> 00:05:56,472 we talk about it, but when we refer to postmodernism, what we're really 116 00:05:56,477 --> 00:06:02,322 referring to usually is the postmodern view of, of truth or epistemology, which 117 00:06:02,322 --> 00:06:06,492 is to say that all truth is relative and, and you make sure to reference 118 00:06:06,497 --> 00:06:09,826 it also as relativism, which is really more so the, word we're utilizing. 119 00:06:10,226 --> 00:06:12,966 Why do you think it is in that, in that dynamic? 120 00:06:13,366 --> 00:06:18,096 The person that presumably you have the least in common 121 00:06:18,096 --> 00:06:20,696 with is the atheist, right? 122 00:06:21,106 --> 00:06:26,856 But then you sort of have this weird ideological bumping into the 123 00:06:26,906 --> 00:06:28,376 other lifeguard, so to speak, right? 124 00:06:28,386 --> 00:06:31,626 The other person who maybe they agree with you, or at least maybe in paper, 125 00:06:31,626 --> 00:06:35,666 like they agree with you more, but you see that you see a kind of a worldview 126 00:06:35,666 --> 00:06:43,550 issue there as well, that to them, them being so concerned that there was 127 00:06:43,890 --> 00:06:47,161 like some harm done How do you think? 128 00:06:47,561 --> 00:06:48,791 We've gotten to that point. 129 00:06:49,011 --> 00:06:49,641 You know what I mean? 130 00:06:49,661 --> 00:06:51,101 Why do you think that's so prevalent? 131 00:06:51,131 --> 00:06:53,401 Even within Christendom, in all honesty, I mean, even within 132 00:06:53,401 --> 00:06:58,011 Christianity, there's sort of an underlying current of relativism of 133 00:06:58,011 --> 00:07:00,031 like, Hey, that's, that's your truth. 134 00:07:00,061 --> 00:07:04,881 And for somebody to question Mike's truth is inherently offensive or 135 00:07:04,881 --> 00:07:07,198 even kind of violent against Mike. 136 00:07:07,598 --> 00:07:13,758 Mikel: Well, I think , part of it is, At the fault of, Christians and people who 137 00:07:14,038 --> 00:07:20,128 have gone out and spoken truth violently, and they, they go in and they're trying 138 00:07:20,128 --> 00:07:24,938 to communicate truth to people, but they do it in a way that is false. 139 00:07:25,128 --> 00:07:29,608 Very offensive and they leave the love out of it You know They the people that 140 00:07:29,608 --> 00:07:32,748 they do not have a relationship with that they're screaming at telling them 141 00:07:32,748 --> 00:07:36,458 that they're wrong or that God hates them for the way that they're living 142 00:07:36,458 --> 00:07:42,348 or anything like that and it's just not the way to try to to get someone to 143 00:07:42,418 --> 00:07:45,388 have a relationship with God as almost a 144 00:07:45,788 --> 00:07:47,548 cultural response to that 145 00:07:47,948 --> 00:07:52,298 pendulum swings the other way in that, well, clearly trying to evangelize 146 00:07:52,298 --> 00:07:56,618 somebody and communicate truth to them, if that's what that looks like, 147 00:07:56,618 --> 00:08:03,288 we need to avoid that at all costs and not talk about this in any capacity. 148 00:08:03,868 --> 00:08:08,348 Then also part of it, I think, is that people who don't hold religious beliefs 149 00:08:08,368 --> 00:08:12,768 Jeremy: A lot of times I'll talk about like in the world we live in now, In 150 00:08:12,768 --> 00:08:21,258 the West, at the very least, we have the largest growth religiously are people 151 00:08:21,288 --> 00:08:26,748 who say they're not religious, but they also aren't naturalist atheists either. 152 00:08:26,748 --> 00:08:27,958 They're not Christopher Hitchens. 153 00:08:27,978 --> 00:08:29,238 They're, they're kind of in between. 154 00:08:29,258 --> 00:08:31,034 I usually say spiritual agnostics. 155 00:08:31,393 --> 00:08:34,763 Mikel: And these, so if you're spiritually agnostic and you're not 156 00:08:34,773 --> 00:08:40,603 sure about anything, you don't really believe in anything, at least not. 157 00:08:40,653 --> 00:08:41,613 Jeremy: Or there's no dogma. 158 00:08:41,643 --> 00:08:42,763 There might be belief. 159 00:08:42,783 --> 00:08:43,753 There might be belief. 160 00:08:43,763 --> 00:08:46,663 Like you have a functional belief in spiritual things, 161 00:08:46,663 --> 00:08:48,423 but, but there's no holy texts. 162 00:08:48,423 --> 00:08:50,623 There's no, there's no hierarchy and like 163 00:08:50,788 --> 00:08:55,498 Mikel: Yeah, so it's got this free form make it whatever you want I think from 164 00:08:55,498 --> 00:08:59,588 that point of view it can be hard to tell the difference between a belief 165 00:08:59,588 --> 00:09:08,333 that Something is true in a metaphysical sense for all people, and just an opinion 166 00:09:08,343 --> 00:09:12,703 about something, because for them, their spiritual beliefs might be pretty close to 167 00:09:12,703 --> 00:09:14,873 their same thing as a spiritual opinion. 168 00:09:15,193 --> 00:09:17,023 And so They view 169 00:09:17,273 --> 00:09:21,123 everybody else in that same light, in that everybody else's beliefs 170 00:09:21,733 --> 00:09:23,383 are pretty much just opinions. 171 00:09:23,413 --> 00:09:28,403 And to go up to somebody And try to have a serious conversation with 172 00:09:28,403 --> 00:09:32,493 them about how they really need to turn their life around and accept 173 00:09:32,493 --> 00:09:34,333 that pineapple is good on pizza. 174 00:09:34,623 --> 00:09:36,473 Just sounds insane, right? 175 00:09:36,553 --> 00:09:40,473 You would never talk about an opinion the way you talk about a belief 176 00:09:40,473 --> 00:09:43,383 or something that you believe it really is true for every person 177 00:09:43,398 --> 00:09:43,908 Jeremy: alive. 178 00:09:44,333 --> 00:09:47,143 Yeah, we, I think, I think part of the problem too, and not that every 179 00:09:47,143 --> 00:09:52,988 problem the church faces is the church's fault, but I do think the churches has 180 00:09:52,998 --> 00:09:57,188 kind of made its bed and is lying in it now in the sense that we really, for 181 00:09:57,188 --> 00:10:03,178 a very long time settled comfortably into everybody assumes that what The 182 00:10:03,178 --> 00:10:07,658 Bible says is true or, or everybody assumes that sort of our foundational 183 00:10:07,698 --> 00:10:11,618 understanding of what we believe to be true is, is, it's, it's accepted. 184 00:10:12,148 --> 00:10:16,868 And, and what's happened is we live in a world now where, Oh, wait, no, that's not 185 00:10:16,878 --> 00:10:22,298 true because everybody I bump into now, whether they're atheist, agnostic, or even 186 00:10:22,298 --> 00:10:30,238 Christian, , We sort of don't know how to determine truth outside of maybe something 187 00:10:30,288 --> 00:10:34,628 like like empiricism, which is the idea of what you just said, if I can't prove 188 00:10:34,628 --> 00:10:41,213 it to be true, then any claim to that thing's truth really begins to fall into 189 00:10:41,263 --> 00:10:43,283 the category of pineapples good on pizza. 190 00:10:43,513 --> 00:10:46,113 It's more of an opinion because I can't prove it to be true. 191 00:10:46,513 --> 00:10:47,753 But the problem is then. 192 00:10:48,358 --> 00:10:51,838 The most important questions that we face in our life, like, is there an afterlife? 193 00:10:51,858 --> 00:10:52,678 Is there a God? 194 00:10:52,728 --> 00:10:55,808 Is there, is there a objective truth? 195 00:10:56,208 --> 00:10:57,658 Those are pretty important questions. 196 00:10:57,668 --> 00:11:02,758 , those are things that if we put those in the opinion category, kind of I hate 197 00:11:02,758 --> 00:11:06,758 to be crass, but like all hell breaks loose because really, then you have 198 00:11:06,828 --> 00:11:11,698 a whole society of people who really need to have the conversations like 199 00:11:11,698 --> 00:11:15,748 you were having at that YMCA of Hey, , what's the real nature of reality. 200 00:11:16,348 --> 00:11:17,688 What's going to happen when we die? 201 00:11:17,718 --> 00:11:18,928 Is there objective truth? 202 00:11:19,018 --> 00:11:21,978 Is there a God, but we don't have the foundation to even 203 00:11:21,978 --> 00:11:25,118 have those conversations because all truth claims are false. 204 00:11:25,518 --> 00:11:29,588 Are in the opinion category and we don't know how to navigate 205 00:11:29,988 --> 00:11:31,658 epistemological conversations. 206 00:11:31,708 --> 00:11:34,348 Like, how do we even say what truth is? 207 00:11:34,498 --> 00:11:35,068 You know what I mean? 208 00:11:35,538 --> 00:11:40,878 And you, in the, in the article, you talk about, I like how you said this, talking 209 00:11:40,878 --> 00:11:43,348 about subjective truth, which is really the nature of what we're talking about. 210 00:11:43,348 --> 00:11:46,188 The idea is, is truth objective or subjective? 211 00:11:46,218 --> 00:11:47,778 Is it fixed? 212 00:11:48,278 --> 00:11:52,058 And immovable, or is it relative, like individualized to each person, 213 00:11:52,188 --> 00:11:53,498 kind of like the pineapple on 214 00:11:53,508 --> 00:11:54,158 pizza thing. 215 00:11:54,628 --> 00:11:56,758 And you talk about like, there's nothing new under the sun. 216 00:11:56,788 --> 00:12:00,608 You, you mentioned Protagoras fifth century said, man is the measure of 217 00:12:00,608 --> 00:12:05,268 all things, which means that what is true for you might not be true for me. 218 00:12:05,798 --> 00:12:07,908 And then you list off a bunch of people, including C. 219 00:12:07,908 --> 00:12:08,058 S. 220 00:12:08,058 --> 00:12:11,968 Lewis, who I know has made a huge, Impact on you and just kind of how 221 00:12:11,968 --> 00:12:15,178 you communicate and think but you also mentioned Plato even Dawkins I was 222 00:12:15,178 --> 00:12:18,788 actually kind of surprised at that I I didn't realize that Dawkins was 223 00:12:18,918 --> 00:12:21,428 kind of maybe on the side of objective 224 00:12:21,708 --> 00:12:24,308 Mikel: Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's one thing that's interesting 225 00:12:24,308 --> 00:12:25,218 is, you know, you got C. 226 00:12:25,218 --> 00:12:25,358 S. 227 00:12:25,358 --> 00:12:28,928 Lewis and Richard Dawkins that both strongly agree that truth exists. 228 00:12:28,938 --> 00:12:30,638 Something is either true or it's not 229 00:12:30,648 --> 00:12:31,068 true. 230 00:12:31,068 --> 00:12:36,388 And I think, I don't know for sure, I think a lot of the, the naturalist 231 00:12:36,388 --> 00:12:40,708 atheists agree with that as well, because otherwise, there's, why in the 232 00:12:40,708 --> 00:12:44,608 world would they spend so much time Any amount of time trying to debate with 233 00:12:44,608 --> 00:12:50,308 anybody, you know, that's the other side of it is if all truth is Subjective 234 00:12:50,398 --> 00:12:53,998 and if your truth is equally true to my 235 00:12:54,008 --> 00:12:54,598 truth 236 00:12:54,998 --> 00:13:00,308 Then there's no reason for us to discuss it at all and the discussion never happens 237 00:13:00,983 --> 00:13:01,253 Jeremy: Yeah. 238 00:13:01,533 --> 00:13:01,673 Yeah. 239 00:13:01,673 --> 00:13:05,453 A lot of apologists like the, the biggest one that comes to mind because he's 240 00:13:05,463 --> 00:13:09,113 always at the center of conversations on. 241 00:13:09,598 --> 00:13:13,708 Morality and whether true like objective morality exists is Frank Turek, who's 242 00:13:13,708 --> 00:13:18,408 actually I've had on the podcast a long time ago and I actually asked him 243 00:13:18,408 --> 00:13:23,588 a question when he and I were talking because he always brings people who 244 00:13:23,598 --> 00:13:28,358 struggle with objective truth and specifically objective morality to 245 00:13:28,358 --> 00:13:32,508 the question of what what's Christians usually calls the moral argument, 246 00:13:32,528 --> 00:13:36,348 which is, you know, if there's no moral law giver, then there's no moral law. 247 00:13:36,668 --> 00:13:38,038 And if there's no moral law. 248 00:13:38,573 --> 00:13:39,593 Then there's no morality. 249 00:13:39,593 --> 00:13:40,453 You can do whatever you want. 250 00:13:40,453 --> 00:13:42,463 And actually I asked him, I was like, Frank, do you ever worry 251 00:13:42,463 --> 00:13:46,743 that you're going to cause people to realize that you're right, but 252 00:13:46,743 --> 00:13:48,933 they're not going to then choose. 253 00:13:49,333 --> 00:13:52,293 The path that we want them to, which is that there's moral law that you're 254 00:13:52,293 --> 00:13:55,543 actually making like moral nihilists, which is the idea that nothing 255 00:13:55,553 --> 00:13:59,053 matters, because what's funny is what you just pointed out is most people 256 00:13:59,053 --> 00:14:04,423 don't think that truth is, or morality specifically is, is subjective because 257 00:14:04,423 --> 00:14:08,113 they all operate every single day on a basis that there is right and 258 00:14:08,313 --> 00:14:10,943 Mikel: That's, yeah, that's the funny thing is that even people 259 00:14:10,943 --> 00:14:15,073 who try to claim that all morality is subjective and all truth is 260 00:14:15,073 --> 00:14:17,123 subjective, they don't act like it is. 261 00:14:17,413 --> 00:14:20,943 If somebody steals from them, they're still gonna call the police and try to 262 00:14:20,943 --> 00:14:24,953 get their stuff back and believe that that person did, committed a crime, did 263 00:14:24,953 --> 00:14:29,163 something wrong against them, but If that person believed that what they were 264 00:14:29,163 --> 00:14:33,883 doing is right, in their view, it's right, and they've got no reason to be offended. 265 00:14:34,413 --> 00:14:36,483 Jeremy: So impasse too. 266 00:14:36,843 --> 00:14:40,063 And I borrow this, this notion from a friend of mine who told me one time we 267 00:14:40,063 --> 00:14:44,773 have theoretical knowledge, in the brain and then operative knowledge in the 268 00:14:44,783 --> 00:14:50,143 heart, let's say, and we have beliefs and worldviews that we might put on paper, 269 00:14:50,263 --> 00:14:54,553 but when, when the rubber really meets the road, we live our lives by a certain set 270 00:14:54,553 --> 00:14:58,143 of principles and kind of, I agree with you is like most people, I agree with you. 271 00:14:58,498 --> 00:15:02,708 Functionally do believe in some sense of objective truth, objective morality. 272 00:15:03,228 --> 00:15:08,468 The problem is what you experienced at that YMCA, which is when two people who 273 00:15:08,468 --> 00:15:13,418 have two different ideas about truth, whether that be ontological truth, 274 00:15:13,428 --> 00:15:16,828 like, is there a God is reality real? 275 00:15:16,898 --> 00:15:17,578 You know what I mean? 276 00:15:17,998 --> 00:15:22,298 Or moral truths like, of course, the big pressing ones in our society today in 277 00:15:22,298 --> 00:15:26,398 2024 questions of gender inclusivity sexuality, things like that, we have 278 00:15:26,398 --> 00:15:32,488 huge disagreements with people on these and everybody thinks they're right. 279 00:15:32,888 --> 00:15:37,448 And we don't really experience the friction until two people or more butt 280 00:15:37,448 --> 00:15:43,768 up against each other and you you kind of Portray this I think pretty well in 281 00:15:43,768 --> 00:15:47,258 what you wrote talking about postmodern relativists think that their view is 282 00:15:47,258 --> 00:15:50,408 the only one that a person can hold if they're going to truly love their 283 00:15:50,408 --> 00:15:54,948 neighbor and I think a lot of what you experience what i've experienced what 284 00:15:54,978 --> 00:15:58,398 pretty much everybody listening to this is experience Is the question within 285 00:15:58,398 --> 00:16:03,024 like the Western mindset of to tell somebody that quote, unquote, their truth 286 00:16:03,114 --> 00:16:09,749 is wrong is unloving, you know, in that any, any friction, any disagreement, any, 287 00:16:09,809 --> 00:16:13,694 any, any discord or disunity is unloving. 288 00:16:14,144 --> 00:16:18,384 And you go on at length in that particular paragraph in the article to 289 00:16:18,384 --> 00:16:19,764 talk about, no, no, that's actually. 290 00:16:20,124 --> 00:16:22,314 Sometimes that's the most loving thing you can do. 291 00:16:22,564 --> 00:16:24,734 So how do you think Christians should handle that then? 292 00:16:24,734 --> 00:16:28,294 Because, hopefully we're having conversations where we are looking 293 00:16:28,294 --> 00:16:31,284 at somebody's worldview, they're looking at ours and we are weighing 294 00:16:31,284 --> 00:16:34,934 them out and we are saying, okay, if I'm willing to accept that there is 295 00:16:34,934 --> 00:16:36,674 objective truth or objective morality. 296 00:16:37,354 --> 00:16:39,094 Which one's the right one, you know? 297 00:16:39,474 --> 00:16:41,504 But first we have to be willing to have those conversations and 298 00:16:41,644 --> 00:16:44,414 make people feel uncomfortable, make ourselves feel uncomfortable. 299 00:16:44,634 --> 00:16:49,274 So what is then the most loving thing, when it comes to, butting up against 300 00:16:49,284 --> 00:16:51,154 these, these relativism issues. 301 00:16:51,534 --> 00:16:55,474 Mikel: Yeah, it, you know, it's interesting, Because 302 00:16:55,494 --> 00:17:02,054 even if Christianity is wrong, if I believe wholeheartedly that That it's 303 00:17:02,064 --> 00:17:05,524 true, and I don't tell people about it. 304 00:17:05,614 --> 00:17:10,684 If I believe that the guy sitting next to me is going to hell, because he doesn't 305 00:17:10,694 --> 00:17:12,904 have a relationship with the living 306 00:17:12,904 --> 00:17:16,794 God, and I decide just to keep that to myself, that's not 307 00:17:16,804 --> 00:17:17,419 love. 308 00:17:17,859 --> 00:17:22,119 I'm not showing him love, even if my view is incorrect, if that's what I 309 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,759 believe, the most loving thing that I can do is try to tell him about that. 310 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:33,179 And I think the best way to try to reach somebody, in my opinion, in most, in 311 00:17:33,179 --> 00:17:38,189 most cases, honestly, but especially if they're holding this view that it's 312 00:17:38,269 --> 00:17:42,359 unloving to tell someone to try to evangelize, and we all just need to keep 313 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:47,369 it to ourselves, is first to show them that you do genuinely care about them. 314 00:17:47,469 --> 00:17:51,469 And you're not just, you don't have a desire to discuss 315 00:17:51,469 --> 00:17:54,119 God with them purely out of 316 00:17:54,519 --> 00:17:59,679 an attempt to earn more religion points at your church, but because 317 00:17:59,679 --> 00:18:01,359 you actually care about them. 318 00:18:01,759 --> 00:18:04,059 That's always gonna be the first step, because there's, you 319 00:18:04,059 --> 00:18:07,609 know, there's this famous line of nobody's gonna care what you 320 00:18:07,669 --> 00:18:09,039 no, until they know that you 321 00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:09,499 care, 322 00:18:09,529 --> 00:18:09,949 right? 323 00:18:10,779 --> 00:18:14,369 And, so showing them that you genuinely do care about them. 324 00:18:14,379 --> 00:18:17,219 But then, explaining them what I just mentioned. 325 00:18:17,229 --> 00:18:19,789 That, hey, I really believe that this is true. 326 00:18:19,789 --> 00:18:22,789 And, and I think that your life is going to be better. 327 00:18:22,997 --> 00:18:27,947 If you believe in this as well, can we sit down and just talk about it? 328 00:18:28,037 --> 00:18:31,097 And I'm not, you know, saying up front, I'm not, I don't 329 00:18:31,097 --> 00:18:33,017 want to Make you uncomfortable. 330 00:18:33,017 --> 00:18:35,787 I'm not trying to oppress you in any way. 331 00:18:35,792 --> 00:18:39,447 I, I just, I think that this is, this is the most important thing in the world to 332 00:18:39,447 --> 00:18:41,277 me and I really wanna share it with you. 333 00:18:41,402 --> 00:18:45,622 Jeremy: I was at a I was at a church this past weekend teaching the religions, 334 00:18:45,812 --> 00:18:49,562 and We're talking about hinduism and I was talking about a lot of the 335 00:18:49,572 --> 00:18:53,032 ministry that i've done Trying to engage south asians with the gospel, 336 00:18:53,032 --> 00:18:57,732 which usually involves me Just trying to really establish relationship first. 337 00:18:58,022 --> 00:19:01,092 And one of the guys asked what was a phenomenal question? 338 00:19:01,502 --> 00:19:03,612 Just basically saying are you ever worried though, that 339 00:19:03,612 --> 00:19:07,142 when you go into these places to strike up conversation with people 340 00:19:07,222 --> 00:19:10,742 and obviously, you know, your motivation, there's an end to it. 341 00:19:10,742 --> 00:19:12,922 Like you do want to share the gospel with them. 342 00:19:13,382 --> 00:19:16,262 Are you ever worried that you're going to be perceived as disingenuous 343 00:19:16,262 --> 00:19:21,042 because you're not just going in there just to be friends with them, right? 344 00:19:21,362 --> 00:19:23,342 You're going in there because you. 345 00:19:23,837 --> 00:19:24,847 Have an end in mind. 346 00:19:24,857 --> 00:19:27,227 Are you ever worried that they're going to perceive you as disingenuous? 347 00:19:27,627 --> 00:19:32,207 And I love the question, but my answer was kind of like somewhat 348 00:19:32,207 --> 00:19:36,647 short as I was like, you know, The best way to avoid being perceived 349 00:19:36,647 --> 00:19:38,547 as disingenuous is to be genuine. 350 00:19:38,957 --> 00:19:43,187 If I genuinely have concern for that human in front of me,, I 351 00:19:43,187 --> 00:19:44,227 do want to be friends with you. 352 00:19:44,917 --> 00:19:47,597 I do want to, you know, have relationship. 353 00:19:47,997 --> 00:19:52,137 But for me, because of the underlying, you can call it a worldview if you 354 00:19:52,137 --> 00:19:56,327 want, but the underlying operative belief that I have found to be true, 355 00:19:56,377 --> 00:19:59,417 not for me, but I believe it's true for you, even though you disagree with 356 00:19:59,417 --> 00:20:05,787 me, is that the God of all creation, Wants to know you and be known by you. 357 00:20:05,797 --> 00:20:09,957 And there is a particular way he has prescribed to do that. 358 00:20:10,407 --> 00:20:14,687 Then even if they don't like what I have to say, I doubt that they'll 359 00:20:14,687 --> 00:20:16,367 perceive me as disingenuous. 360 00:20:16,907 --> 00:20:20,827 And I think what you said too, is the idea of like a lot of times Christians, things 361 00:20:20,827 --> 00:20:25,057 like evangelism, sometimes they do fall into the camp of , trying to get points. 362 00:20:25,057 --> 00:20:29,090 I told this guy, Hey, , if it would be disingenuous for to go into 363 00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:31,990 this particular place and try and share the gospel, then don't do it. 364 00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:32,530 You know what I mean? 365 00:20:32,550 --> 00:20:36,100 Because you will fall into that camp of the stereotypical Christian that 366 00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:38,350 people really don't want to be around. 367 00:20:38,350 --> 00:20:41,620 There's I throw out a statistic sometimes when I'm teaching and I can't remember 368 00:20:41,620 --> 00:20:44,200 it exactly, but Pew or Barna put out. 369 00:20:44,855 --> 00:20:50,275 Some numbers recently that said 51 percent of millennials believe that 370 00:20:50,275 --> 00:20:55,445 it is inherently wrong to share your faith with somebody in an attempt 371 00:20:55,845 --> 00:20:57,380 to get them to change their faith. 372 00:20:57,700 --> 00:21:01,815 Their beliefs and so that kind of tells us where we're at now. 373 00:21:01,915 --> 00:21:06,275 That's as much about People's epistemological view as it is what 374 00:21:06,275 --> 00:21:09,465 you said at the very beginning of this conversation Which is the way people 375 00:21:09,465 --> 00:21:13,655 have gone about doing that in the past, which is to say hey, you're wrong I'm 376 00:21:13,655 --> 00:21:17,075 right get on the winning team, well, that's that's not really our heart 377 00:21:17,325 --> 00:21:21,405 either, you know And also one thing that I honestly gets factored into this. 378 00:21:21,405 --> 00:21:25,205 I have a good friend who's a logic and philosophy teacher, and we'll probably 379 00:21:25,215 --> 00:21:28,595 have them in for a conversation at some point, cause he's written he's written for 380 00:21:28,595 --> 00:21:32,845 ATAP before too, but he, he's a phenomenal teacher of logic and philosophy. 381 00:21:32,875 --> 00:21:37,215 And, one of the first things he asks people is he's, he tries to 382 00:21:37,215 --> 00:21:39,835 gauge Hey, do you believe that? 383 00:21:40,235 --> 00:21:44,265 You know, a can equal non a, or do you believe that a circle can 384 00:21:44,265 --> 00:21:45,625 be a square and all these things? 385 00:21:45,625 --> 00:21:48,375 and he asks like these kind of out there logical questions because what 386 00:21:48,375 --> 00:21:51,685 he's trying to drive at is that , hey, Square is a square like the truth is 387 00:21:51,685 --> 00:21:55,735 truth Like there are some things that are objective and it's not unloving or 388 00:21:55,735 --> 00:22:00,915 disingenuous or pushy or arrogant for us to insist That a square is a square 389 00:22:00,915 --> 00:22:04,115 and ultimately You At the heart of the matter, when we're talking about the 390 00:22:04,115 --> 00:22:08,145 gospel and we're talking about the big questions of life in reality, we're 391 00:22:08,145 --> 00:22:09,615 not talking about pineapple on pizza. 392 00:22:09,615 --> 00:22:11,655 We're talking about the things that actually make up the 393 00:22:11,655 --> 00:22:14,405 fabric of, of everything. 394 00:22:14,605 --> 00:22:17,785 And, you know, before we started recording, you mentioned some 395 00:22:17,785 --> 00:22:22,035 of the groups that there is this prevailing sentiment that like your 396 00:22:22,035 --> 00:22:23,965 truth is not the entirety of truth. 397 00:22:23,965 --> 00:22:26,435 I think more Christians need to realize like, no, we need to get 398 00:22:26,445 --> 00:22:31,850 better at understanding there is a logical undergird girding 399 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,010 to the claims of scripture. 400 00:22:35,290 --> 00:22:38,540 These are not things that like some, there are obviously some things that are matters 401 00:22:38,540 --> 00:22:42,960 of interpretation, but at the end of the day, the fact that there is a god and 402 00:22:43,010 --> 00:22:48,040 what you do in life matters and that there is an afterlife in that god can only be 403 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,830 known Through one avenue and we say it's the person of jesus and the work that he 404 00:22:52,830 --> 00:22:56,640 did on the cross and resurrection These are not things that are up for Opinion, 405 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,650 like you said like the pineapple on pizza 406 00:22:59,050 --> 00:23:04,055 Mikel: Lewis points out that in one of his books, that Christianity and kind of all 407 00:23:04,055 --> 00:23:07,980 of, all religions and, and beliefs about, 408 00:23:08,430 --> 00:23:09,395 the metaphysical. 409 00:23:10,112 --> 00:23:15,772 Either of the utmost importance in that there is nothing that is more 410 00:23:15,772 --> 00:23:18,142 important or could ever be more important 411 00:23:18,262 --> 00:23:20,757 than what you believe about 412 00:23:20,757 --> 00:23:24,137 these things, or they're of no importance whatsoever. 413 00:23:24,447 --> 00:23:27,717 But so many people are sitting in this like, yeah, it's important, but 414 00:23:27,717 --> 00:23:29,287 it's not the most important thing. 415 00:23:29,457 --> 00:23:30,107 Kind of camp and 416 00:23:30,107 --> 00:23:30,187 they're 417 00:23:30,187 --> 00:23:30,357 just 418 00:23:30,357 --> 00:23:30,707 happy 419 00:23:30,707 --> 00:23:30,807 to 420 00:23:30,807 --> 00:23:31,587 hang out there, but 421 00:23:31,977 --> 00:23:36,907 that's the logically that makes no sense because either this matters way more than 422 00:23:36,907 --> 00:23:40,757 anything else that you could possibly care about, or it doesn't matter at all because 423 00:23:40,853 --> 00:23:41,012 Jeremy: because it's either 424 00:23:41,252 --> 00:23:41,442 true 425 00:23:41,547 --> 00:23:42,257 Mikel: or it isn't. 426 00:23:42,287 --> 00:23:43,497 It can't be halfway. 427 00:23:43,662 --> 00:23:46,092 Jeremy: made essentially the same argument, you know, the, the idea 428 00:23:46,092 --> 00:23:50,252 of like, if, if Jesus hadn't been resurrected, then everything we're 429 00:23:50,252 --> 00:23:52,252 doing is, but a clinging symbol. 430 00:23:52,582 --> 00:23:58,502 And I have a great friend and mentor who his conversion story, he was, I 431 00:23:58,502 --> 00:24:01,542 don't know if he would have considered himself an atheist, but he was 432 00:24:01,542 --> 00:24:06,312 certainly at best and agnostic when he was young and he kind of came of age. 433 00:24:06,362 --> 00:24:09,192 His college years were around the Billy Graham crusades. 434 00:24:09,592 --> 00:24:15,572 And he didn't realize it, but there was a church group that a lot of his friends 435 00:24:15,572 --> 00:24:18,782 were in, and he was on their prayer list. 436 00:24:18,822 --> 00:24:21,402 He was on their list of people that like, Hey, we'd really love to see, 437 00:24:21,472 --> 00:24:22,822 you know, him become a brother. 438 00:24:23,222 --> 00:24:26,832 And so they would invite him surfing. 439 00:24:26,832 --> 00:24:27,872 They'd invite him to the beach. 440 00:24:27,872 --> 00:24:29,962 They'd invite him all these, you know, cool things. 441 00:24:30,362 --> 00:24:30,862 And. 442 00:24:31,372 --> 00:24:33,182 They developed relationship with him and he loved it. 443 00:24:33,182 --> 00:24:37,052 And he was like, yeah, I don't really love what you guys worship and all 444 00:24:37,052 --> 00:24:39,932 these things, but I like you guys, you know, well, one day they invited 445 00:24:39,932 --> 00:24:42,672 him to a Billy Graham crusade and it was like a three or four day thing. 446 00:24:43,072 --> 00:24:47,712 And the first day he went sort of kind of like, well, these people are really cool. 447 00:24:47,942 --> 00:24:48,822 They've been really good to me. 448 00:24:48,822 --> 00:24:49,492 I'll go. 449 00:24:49,592 --> 00:24:50,592 Plus it's Billy Graham. 450 00:24:50,592 --> 00:24:52,622 Like I think back then people sort of had a sense. 451 00:24:52,672 --> 00:24:54,152 , Oh, this is a, this is a spectacle. 452 00:24:54,152 --> 00:24:55,552 I need to go see this Billy Graham guy. 453 00:24:56,152 --> 00:25:01,467 So he goes the first night and he's pretty intrigued and He told me that the 454 00:25:01,467 --> 00:25:04,277 following nights was like crazy rain. 455 00:25:04,677 --> 00:25:06,847 And so all of his friends were like, oh, we're not going to go. 456 00:25:07,487 --> 00:25:09,117 And he was like, no, we have to go. 457 00:25:09,127 --> 00:25:12,837 We, we, like I went the first night, you know, he said, he's going to keep 458 00:25:12,837 --> 00:25:14,027 talking about these big spiritual things. 459 00:25:14,027 --> 00:25:17,497 So he's, he's like cutting holes in garbage bags for ponchos 460 00:25:17,497 --> 00:25:18,577 for his friends and everything. 461 00:25:18,977 --> 00:25:21,857 Second, third night, however many nights there were, he's the one 462 00:25:21,857 --> 00:25:22,777 that's like, no, we got to go. 463 00:25:23,177 --> 00:25:27,557 So it gets to the last night, Billy gives the big famous invitational. 464 00:25:28,187 --> 00:25:31,217 And what my friend told me, and it blew my mind. 465 00:25:31,547 --> 00:25:34,777 I mean, cause, cause he had made such a big impact on me and I'd never heard his 466 00:25:34,777 --> 00:25:42,597 testimony was that when Billy gave the invitational he realized that he had 467 00:25:42,597 --> 00:25:45,227 been made accountable to make a choice. 468 00:25:45,762 --> 00:25:49,182 Yes or no about the truth of the gospel of what you just said. 469 00:25:49,262 --> 00:25:52,142 Hey, this either happened or it didn't. 470 00:25:52,612 --> 00:25:55,292 It is not a subjective matter of opinion. 471 00:25:55,692 --> 00:25:57,852 Either Jesus was raised from the dead. 472 00:25:58,252 --> 00:26:00,792 And if he was raised from the dead, then that validates everything that 473 00:26:00,792 --> 00:26:04,062 came before it and everything that would come after it, or he didn't. 474 00:26:04,462 --> 00:26:06,422 And if he didn't, Paul's right. 475 00:26:06,702 --> 00:26:06,962 C. 476 00:26:06,962 --> 00:26:07,102 S. 477 00:26:07,102 --> 00:26:07,732 Lewis is right. 478 00:26:07,742 --> 00:26:08,542 Tim Keller's right. 479 00:26:08,552 --> 00:26:12,202 Tim Keller said pretty famously, Either Jesus raised from the dead and 480 00:26:12,202 --> 00:26:13,572 it's the most important thing ever. 481 00:26:14,102 --> 00:26:16,412 Or it doesn't matter at all, you know? 482 00:26:16,812 --> 00:26:20,082 And my friend realized he's like, shoot. 483 00:26:20,482 --> 00:26:21,472 I think he's right. 484 00:26:21,692 --> 00:26:25,732 I think what he is saying is true based on the merit of what the scriptures 485 00:26:25,732 --> 00:26:29,402 say, based on the merit of scripture and based also to on the this is 486 00:26:29,402 --> 00:26:32,852 something that gets lost in the mix based on the matter of the experiences 487 00:26:32,972 --> 00:26:34,252 of all of these Christians, right? 488 00:26:34,252 --> 00:26:36,192 They they've all had these experiences too. 489 00:26:36,662 --> 00:26:41,282 And so he goes down to the football field or whatever it was and, you know, it 490 00:26:41,292 --> 00:26:43,472 gives us life to Christ and it wasn't. 491 00:26:43,707 --> 00:26:44,787 Just experience. 492 00:26:44,787 --> 00:26:47,367 It wasn't just an intellectual thing. 493 00:26:47,377 --> 00:26:52,007 It was that someone had made him accountable to say, either 494 00:26:52,007 --> 00:26:54,727 you believe it or you don't. 495 00:26:55,127 --> 00:26:57,197 But it's not just an opinion. 496 00:26:57,247 --> 00:27:02,077 It's, it's based on historical facts, experiential facts, metaphysical facts. 497 00:27:02,487 --> 00:27:06,572 Some of them cannot be proven, but we still have to make a decision 498 00:27:06,572 --> 00:27:07,852 whether we believe them or not. 499 00:27:07,892 --> 00:27:11,312 And the decision that you make, whether you believe it or not, is the most 500 00:27:11,312 --> 00:27:15,372 important one you're ever going to make, you know, and it goes back to 501 00:27:15,372 --> 00:27:17,942 kind of what you were saying about Lewis, which is, yeah, either it's, 502 00:27:18,042 --> 00:27:21,937 you know, Either it's super important and it's going to dominate your life 503 00:27:23,052 --> 00:27:25,572 or it doesn't matter at all, but you can't be indifferent. 504 00:27:25,622 --> 00:27:26,732 And I think we have too much. 505 00:27:26,932 --> 00:27:29,792 And I actually think that too many people inside the church 506 00:27:29,792 --> 00:27:30,892 don't realize that either. 507 00:27:31,232 --> 00:27:33,412 Is that like, no, you can't be indifferent. 508 00:27:33,462 --> 00:27:35,622 This can't just be pineapple on pizza. 509 00:27:35,632 --> 00:27:36,022 I like 510 00:27:36,052 --> 00:27:36,332 that, 511 00:27:36,382 --> 00:27:36,852 that, uh, 512 00:27:37,132 --> 00:27:37,552 that picture. 513 00:27:38,017 --> 00:27:38,517 Mikel: Yeah. 514 00:27:39,182 --> 00:27:45,402 Jeremy: In the article you mentioned, That post modernism relativism is the rejection 515 00:27:45,442 --> 00:27:50,792 of of anything that's overarching What I what I learned the term meta narrative 516 00:27:50,802 --> 00:27:55,972 which is like the idea that like there's anything there's any greater truth 517 00:27:56,032 --> 00:28:02,377 than an individual's experiences and choice and opinions so as As we seek to 518 00:28:02,377 --> 00:28:05,397 have conversations, whether those are conversations with other Christians who 519 00:28:05,397 --> 00:28:08,897 just maybe haven't gotten to the point where they realize that their decision 520 00:28:08,897 --> 00:28:14,007 to follow Christ is something that's going to both undergird, but then also 521 00:28:14,007 --> 00:28:17,937 kind of be the meta narrative over their entire life or non believers, whether 522 00:28:17,937 --> 00:28:23,377 they be a Hindu Hindu background, or maybe they're in the new age, metaphysical 523 00:28:23,377 --> 00:28:24,917 movement, something like that. 524 00:28:25,317 --> 00:28:31,127 How do you think Christians Can approach conversations so that 525 00:28:31,127 --> 00:28:34,667 people can come to the point where they realize, no, there is a truth. 526 00:28:34,687 --> 00:28:35,997 And what you decide 527 00:28:36,397 --> 00:28:36,557 To 528 00:28:36,557 --> 00:28:38,687 believe that that truth is a, is hugely important. 529 00:28:38,767 --> 00:28:40,477 And it's not just always opinions. 530 00:28:40,817 --> 00:28:43,617 While also maintaining the idea that like, well, we do want to be loving. 531 00:28:43,717 --> 00:28:44,717 We want to love our neighbors. 532 00:28:44,717 --> 00:28:49,237 We want to be seen as the term in a lot of circles of Christianity is winsome. 533 00:28:49,377 --> 00:28:49,707 Right. 534 00:28:49,967 --> 00:28:51,337 So we don't want to be the street preacher. 535 00:28:51,337 --> 00:28:52,837 The guy who's perceived as hateful. 536 00:28:53,427 --> 00:28:55,207 How do you think we can navigate that? 537 00:28:55,959 --> 00:29:02,274 Mikel: guy perceived do you can navigate that 538 00:29:03,777 --> 00:29:07,437 Everybody has a god, quote unquote. 539 00:29:07,477 --> 00:29:11,567 They have something that gives their life meaning. 540 00:29:11,577 --> 00:29:14,682 Something that is of utmost importance. 541 00:29:15,082 --> 00:29:17,632 And it dictates everything else that they do. 542 00:29:17,642 --> 00:29:23,352 Maybe it's a relationship with a spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend, maybe 543 00:29:23,352 --> 00:29:26,572 it's their job and how much money they make, how many Instagram followers 544 00:29:26,572 --> 00:29:33,182 they have, their house, their dog, or it's God, but it's got to be something 545 00:29:33,192 --> 00:29:37,832 because we're created to worship and everybody worships something. 546 00:29:38,232 --> 00:29:38,772 And. 547 00:29:39,172 --> 00:29:39,372 It's 548 00:29:39,382 --> 00:29:42,552 very important that you know what that something is, because 549 00:29:42,572 --> 00:29:45,712 if it's not going to be God, it's going to be something else. 550 00:29:45,722 --> 00:29:45,822 And 551 00:29:45,822 --> 00:29:45,932 if 552 00:29:45,932 --> 00:29:46,042 it's 553 00:29:46,052 --> 00:29:48,072 something else, it's not going to last. 554 00:29:48,162 --> 00:29:51,172 , at some , it's going to fill you with emptiness and you're going 555 00:29:51,172 --> 00:29:53,562 to have to seek a new God, a new 556 00:29:53,572 --> 00:29:54,152 goal 557 00:29:54,222 --> 00:29:55,292 of some sort. 558 00:29:55,342 --> 00:30:00,992 So having these conversations, , my goal is always just to get 559 00:30:00,992 --> 00:30:02,482 people to examine their own life. 560 00:30:02,522 --> 00:30:04,952 And why do you do the things that you do? 561 00:30:04,962 --> 00:30:09,802 , I think why is the most powerful question you can ever ask of yourself. 562 00:30:09,822 --> 00:30:13,442 Because if you continue to ask yourself why, like Two year old who just 563 00:30:13,442 --> 00:30:14,922 learned the question for the first time 564 00:30:15,182 --> 00:30:19,162 and just asks you why on repeat You know if you ask that of yourself and 565 00:30:19,162 --> 00:30:23,942 then answer as honestly as you can And if you hit a point where you don't know 566 00:30:23,942 --> 00:30:28,052 why okay, that's a gap That's something you need to sit down and figure out 567 00:30:28,452 --> 00:30:34,042 But eventually the question why will take you to what is your ultimate goal? 568 00:30:34,122 --> 00:30:36,122 You're the thing of ultimate importance. 569 00:30:36,122 --> 00:30:36,272 You'll 570 00:30:36,272 --> 00:30:36,412 hit 571 00:30:36,412 --> 00:30:36,472 a 572 00:30:36,472 --> 00:30:36,792 point 573 00:30:36,792 --> 00:30:41,167 where you're like why the answer to why is because There's 574 00:30:41,167 --> 00:30:42,347 nothing more important to me than 575 00:30:42,347 --> 00:30:47,477 this, and if you can get people to realize that, hopefully that will 576 00:30:47,477 --> 00:30:51,537 open up their eyes enough to the point where they are, are more willing 577 00:30:51,537 --> 00:30:55,332 to, spend some time thinking about, okay, is this the correct goal? 578 00:30:55,542 --> 00:30:55,742 You 579 00:30:55,907 --> 00:30:56,227 Jeremy: Yeah. 580 00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:59,530 Have you ever heard of a guy named David Foster Wallace? 581 00:30:59,593 --> 00:31:00,029 Mikel: guy. 582 00:31:00,029 --> 00:31:03,079 I don't know if he was atheist. 583 00:31:03,079 --> 00:31:03,514 I 584 00:31:03,814 --> 00:31:04,434 Jeremy: who he 585 00:31:04,434 --> 00:31:04,744 is. 586 00:31:04,854 --> 00:31:05,134 Okay. 587 00:31:05,134 --> 00:31:07,944 Well, I'm even surprised that you've heard of him because you, you're a 588 00:31:07,944 --> 00:31:12,454 little bit younger than me, but, and he was a really famous author in like the 589 00:31:12,454 --> 00:31:13,844 nineties and the early two thousands. 590 00:31:13,854 --> 00:31:17,234 He's not a Christian, very much, not very much a Christian patients kind of guy. 591 00:31:17,234 --> 00:31:17,289 Yeah. 592 00:31:17,949 --> 00:31:19,229 I don't know if he was atheist. 593 00:31:19,309 --> 00:31:22,879 I think he was atheist, but he wrote this huge book called infinite 594 00:31:22,879 --> 00:31:27,049 jest and it's it's like war and peace level, like word count. 595 00:31:27,675 --> 00:31:33,825 But he gave this tremendous speech it was a commencement speech to Kenyon college. 596 00:31:33,925 --> 00:31:36,435 And if you didn't know who you were listening to at, there are 597 00:31:36,435 --> 00:31:39,435 certain parts of the speech where you'd think he was a Christian. 598 00:31:40,075 --> 00:31:43,365 And he's actually kind of talking about similar things. 599 00:31:43,535 --> 00:31:48,275 The speech Starts off with him telling this parable where he's like, these 600 00:31:48,275 --> 00:31:52,755 two fish were swimming in one direction and this older fish is swimming the 601 00:31:52,755 --> 00:31:54,525 other direction and he looks at them. 602 00:31:54,525 --> 00:31:55,525 He says, morning boys. 603 00:31:55,535 --> 00:31:56,385 How's the water? 604 00:31:56,785 --> 00:31:58,245 And they swim on for a little while. 605 00:31:58,325 --> 00:32:02,005 And one fish looks at the other and says, what the heck is water? 606 00:32:02,405 --> 00:32:05,395 And he, of course he said a little bit more crass than that, but then he goes 607 00:32:05,395 --> 00:32:09,615 on to basically point out to this, undergraduate class of this pretty liberal 608 00:32:09,625 --> 00:32:14,465 school basically saying like, Hey, there, there are undergirding their underlying. 609 00:32:14,865 --> 00:32:17,745 Things about reality that , we just don't even think about. 610 00:32:17,745 --> 00:32:18,825 We don't notice. 611 00:32:19,275 --> 00:32:21,085 And what you just said reminded me of that. 612 00:32:21,085 --> 00:32:23,655 Cause he's like, you have to kind of examine those things. 613 00:32:23,665 --> 00:32:25,775 And he actually makes the point that everybody worships 614 00:32:25,785 --> 00:32:28,285 something and he's like, and you have to figure out what it is. 615 00:32:28,325 --> 00:32:30,075 And of course he's open minded religiously. 616 00:32:30,075 --> 00:32:31,745 He's like, maybe it's Jesus. 617 00:32:31,745 --> 00:32:32,605 Maybe it's Yahweh. 618 00:32:32,645 --> 00:32:33,375 Maybe it's Allah. 619 00:32:33,425 --> 00:32:34,545 Maybe it's the Buddha. 620 00:32:34,545 --> 00:32:38,945 Maybe it's something, something, something, but he actually makes the 621 00:32:38,955 --> 00:32:43,855 theists claim, which is to say, if you worship your physical beauty, 622 00:32:44,525 --> 00:32:45,795 you will always think you're ugly. 623 00:32:46,195 --> 00:32:50,065 If you worship your intellect, you will always feel stupid. 624 00:32:50,145 --> 00:32:53,105 And like one day you will be found out as the fraud that you are. 625 00:32:53,795 --> 00:32:57,885 And basically he's kind of pointing these, these kids to say like there, 626 00:32:57,925 --> 00:33:01,335 there is something worth worshiping. 627 00:33:01,345 --> 00:33:02,595 You just have to find out what it is. 628 00:33:02,625 --> 00:33:08,085 And, and, and sadly, David Foster Wallace, his life ended in a bout 629 00:33:08,085 --> 00:33:12,005 of crippling depression that ended with him taking his own life. 630 00:33:12,485 --> 00:33:19,345 And I do think that even many Non believers who are very antagonistic 631 00:33:19,345 --> 00:33:22,135 to what they've seen from the church, what they've seen from 632 00:33:22,135 --> 00:33:25,645 institutionalized religion are asking the same questions that we are, 633 00:33:26,315 --> 00:33:30,055 that ask that are asking the same questions that led us to follow Christ. 634 00:33:30,495 --> 00:33:34,735 And Tim Keller said that the job of the Christian communicator, so not 635 00:33:34,735 --> 00:33:37,735 just preachers, but like anybody who's listening to this podcast, 636 00:33:37,735 --> 00:33:40,705 who's like, I just want to learn how to have conversations with people in 637 00:33:40,705 --> 00:33:44,475 my life that he said, the job is the job of the Christian communicator to. 638 00:33:45,115 --> 00:33:48,825 At least in some form or fashion, remember what it was like to not believe. 639 00:33:49,225 --> 00:33:54,095 And if you do that, you will ask people these types of 640 00:33:54,095 --> 00:33:56,115 questions, like, what is your why? 641 00:33:56,165 --> 00:34:00,705 Like you just said, and if you examine the why, if you examine what it is that is 642 00:34:00,715 --> 00:34:05,855 getting your adoration, your veneration, your exaltation, your attention, then 643 00:34:05,855 --> 00:34:07,995 you might realize the what as well. 644 00:34:08,565 --> 00:34:12,945 And if the what is something that will expire, Something that will 645 00:34:12,945 --> 00:34:15,419 betray you, then perhaps you can. 646 00:34:16,076 --> 00:34:21,450 That person needs to hear the invitation to say, Hey, here, here's my why, and 647 00:34:21,450 --> 00:34:25,350 here's my what, which is something that will never expire and something that 648 00:34:25,350 --> 00:34:27,780 loves me more than I could ever love it. 649 00:34:28,050 --> 00:34:31,460 And something that has redeemed my imperfections. 650 00:34:31,470 --> 00:34:33,820 One day I will be old one day. 651 00:34:33,830 --> 00:34:38,460 I will, you know, lose my intellectual abilities or my eloquence or these things 652 00:34:38,460 --> 00:34:40,460 that I could be tricked into worshiping. 653 00:34:40,470 --> 00:34:41,590 There's something higher. 654 00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:42,590 And so I think. 655 00:34:42,990 --> 00:34:46,320 Going along with what you're saying is, is not, it's not even for the 656 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,230 Christian missionary, the Christian who's looking to be missional. 657 00:34:49,820 --> 00:34:55,820 It's not always about just saying, Hey, can I just explain the gospel to you is 658 00:34:55,820 --> 00:35:00,040 it is about living out that why and what. 659 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,640 And inviting people into it, like my friend who, you know, he realized what's 660 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:09,860 funny is after he walked down to that field and gave his life to Christ, he 661 00:35:09,860 --> 00:35:13,860 then realized that at least part of the motivating factor of being invited 662 00:35:13,860 --> 00:35:17,340 to the beach, being invited to all of these things with this church group was 663 00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:20,670 that they had a genuine concern for him. 664 00:35:21,070 --> 00:35:22,300 That motivated them. 665 00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:23,590 So call that disingenuous. 666 00:35:23,590 --> 00:35:26,120 If you want, I don't think, I think it's actually the most genuine 667 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,140 thing is that those friends saw in him, man, we love this guy. 668 00:35:30,540 --> 00:35:32,750 So we do want to make him uncomfortable. 669 00:35:32,750 --> 00:35:34,850 We do want him to wrestle with these questions because 670 00:35:34,860 --> 00:35:36,430 we've wrestled with them too. 671 00:35:36,940 --> 00:35:39,610 And I think that if more Christians just did that, I'm just saying 672 00:35:39,610 --> 00:35:41,960 like, it's not just about how many times can I share the gospel. 673 00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:43,190 I think that's important. 674 00:35:43,515 --> 00:35:47,085 I think it is important for us to be about the father's business, but being 675 00:35:47,085 --> 00:35:50,965 motivated by this sense of like, I remember what it's like to have not and I 676 00:35:50,965 --> 00:35:54,065 know what happened in my life once I did. 677 00:35:54,095 --> 00:35:56,604 And once I found that higher, why and what. 678 00:35:57,015 --> 00:35:59,575 And I want to bring these people into that. 679 00:35:59,795 --> 00:36:03,215 And if it makes them uncomfortable, if it makes them angry, because we 680 00:36:03,215 --> 00:36:06,745 live in this postmodern world that says , Hey, any friction is hate. 681 00:36:07,095 --> 00:36:08,545 Any friction is violence. 682 00:36:08,545 --> 00:36:11,665 Then so be it, you know, and just kind of saying , no, it's worth it. 683 00:36:11,695 --> 00:36:13,555 It's the ultimate truth. 684 00:36:13,955 --> 00:36:18,185 Is worth the discomfort that you experienced in that break room 685 00:36:18,295 --> 00:36:21,495 talking to the atheist and then the confusion and kind of like side eye 686 00:36:21,545 --> 00:36:24,655 of presumably somebody who might have been a Christian who's like, I can't 687 00:36:24,655 --> 00:36:25,885 believe he would disagree with you. 688 00:36:25,885 --> 00:36:27,855 That's so, that's so offensive. 689 00:36:27,855 --> 00:36:30,535 And it's just like, no, actually, I'm not offended by either of 690 00:36:30,935 --> 00:36:32,485 scenarios, you know? 691 00:36:32,485 --> 00:36:36,585 And so, I think that for people listening to this who, hear that phrase like, 692 00:36:36,585 --> 00:36:39,115 okay, go on mission into the dark. 693 00:36:39,785 --> 00:36:44,105 , First, you figure out why and what and invite people into that. 694 00:36:44,485 --> 00:36:49,485 And if there's discomfort, if there's arguing, if there is, all of those 695 00:36:49,485 --> 00:36:53,345 things that sometimes come in this weird world that we live in, then that's okay. 696 00:36:53,525 --> 00:36:58,385 You know, what will come at least sometimes is people will realize, I 697 00:36:58,385 --> 00:37:01,235 want to worship something that's worth worshiping and there's only 698 00:37:01,235 --> 00:37:02,755 one God that's worth worshiping. 699 00:37:03,325 --> 00:37:08,525 So for, for listeners who want to engage on this topic more be sure to to go Check 700 00:37:08,535 --> 00:37:12,845 out the the it's a very short article, but it's packed with a ton of really amazing 701 00:37:12,845 --> 00:37:18,025 thoughts on this topic and then from there you can you can go Read all the people 702 00:37:18,025 --> 00:37:21,781 that you can That Mike mentions in this article so yeah until next time Mike,