Welcome to part two of dialogue 14 of the Wisdom series where we continue our conversation with one of humanity's greatest sages and realized teachers. Welcome to Deep Self, Society, Spirit Life Enhancing, Paradigm rattling conversations with cutting edge thinkers, contemplatives and activists with Dr. Roger Walsh and John Dupuy.

But I want to come back to the dichotomies which take up so much of the focus of so much of this chapter. And particularly come back for the moment to the one, as you point out, one of the most frequent and important dichotomies in life and spiritual practice. And that is the dichotomy between good and bad. And clearly this mental dichotomy is the foundation of so much of mental dynamics of attraction, aversion, compulsion, craving. And a lot of spiritual work is concerned with the results of this dichotomy. So it'd be great for you to speak about this.

Yeah, well, because all dichotomies are conceptual, so they don't exist in this dimension. Pure awareness. The pure awareness goes beyond those dimensions, beyond those dichotomies. So the good and the bad, they're all just colors or shapes and this pure fastness, you know, and there's no sense they're good or bad. I mean, it requires the knowing capacity to know the good and bad. Here we were beyond the knowing capacity. That doesn't mean if somebody who is living in a non conceptual, they don't see suffering and they don't see horrible thing happening in the world. They do, however, they have to use their knowing capacity to know that if you stay completely in the non conceptual, you can't really operate completely in the world, our world. You'll be away from the world in some sense, you know, but to be living the world, the dimension of knowing is necessary. And the dimension of knowing has those decades. There is, you know, you see suffering, you see badness and goodness and there's a natural. But even in the non conceptual, even if we don't know the non conceptual, we talk about how it functions, how it does it still function from compassion inherently, it doesn't go toward hatred because hatred is not part of the pure awareness, it's the later development of concepts. You see, we see hatred in the world and we don't know it's hatred. Our response to it is to diffuse it. We see pain, our response to it is to heal it without knowing its pain. It's a non conceptual bodhisattva in that case. So that happened. But I think for most people, the dimension of knowing appears, gives one More knowing of what's happening and usage of the knowledge that is available to help.

And you speak of the general principle that accessing pure awareness undermines this dichotomy of good or bad and all dichotomies. And you say that. And that of course, with the undermining of the good, bad dichotomy undermines attachment, craving, aversion. And you say that allows the heart to open to essential intelligence. To let the intelligence of essence, I think in this case work through.

Yeah, because there's heart on the non conceptual level in the sense there is what we call love. But you don't know it's love. You don't call it love. This is just the colors change, pink and gold, all that appears in this ground. And, and it flows in a way that other people say, oh, this person's loving while the one who's living there. What are you talking about? You see, but you see those dichotomy, there are many of them that are very important. You're talking about the good and bad one dichotomy is being and non being. That's what most teaching focus on. The being and non existence and non existence. And this dimension, this is consumption. You can't say I exist or don't exist. Nobody's there to say anything whether you exist or not. This is pure awareness. Pure, clear, transparent, lucid, you know, limpid, fresh awareness of everything.

I would ask what is aware?

It's the ground itself is aware.

Ground itself, okay.

The ground itself is made out of awareness. That's where awareness come from. This is the source of all awareness. So it's pure awareness, aware of everything. As it's aware of itself without knowing, it's aware of itself alone, but it is. So the dichotomy, being, non being part. So awareness, you cannot say its presence, you cannot say it is emptiness. It has both or neither. In some sense it's beyond those concepts, those are seen as concepts. So being or existing or non being or non existing, which other dimension get involved in? In this dimension, they're not there. So I mean in this dimension also this way of realization, which by the way is one of the most difficult, the rarest of realization. People, when they have, when they say I'm awakened, they have the. Usually the knowing, the not knowing is a deeper thing. It's a more rarefied place. It has disposed of the layer of knowing, layer of gnosis. And it's just simply aware. Simply everything is awareness. And awareness is aware of itself at all points of itself.

And.

And this is the most fundamental or the ground dimension. There's probably something under that too. But as far as I'm able to, yes, there is.

But for so far, let's say it is okay, good. So far we are on the ground, the ground of reality. And it feels like. It feels like the ground because the ground of knowing is awareness. Without awareness, there's no knowing. Think of that. Even ordinarily, can you have knowing without awareness? You have to be aware to know. So awareness here shows why we have awareness and knowing in the ordinary experience. Where does our ordinary experience come from? In fact, that is one of the ways, methods of some part of duction is to be aware of your ordinary awareness, to recognize it. If you recognize your ordinary awareness, not just that you are aware, what is it that is aware? If you become aware of that, you wake up to this pure awareness.

And you point out that in this pure awareness, when the superimpositions of these dichotomies, and particularly now, the good and bad dichotomies, dissolve under the illumination or the. The healing light of awareness, then you have this beautiful expression that love and joy can operate and express freely. And one can love without needing to possess and love with liberated joy and delight.

Yeah, but what I'm trying to say there is that morality and ethics doesn't disappear when there's only pure. When there's no good and bad doesn't mean no ethics, no morality. Because our being is inherently a goodness. Inherently, it cannot do anything bad on its own, so it will function from the externally. It appears as this person functioning in a really ethical, dignified, real way.

This is really good news, Hameed. This is very, very positive in life, existence affirming. Maybe I should say.

Yeah, yeah, it is.

Because reality is at all. When we get to true nature, any of the dimension is a pure goodness. Here it's a pure goodness that doesn't call itself pure goodness. It's pure goodness without having to call itself pure goodness. Just like the baby is aware without knowing, without saying it's I'm aware.

You might say that people that we consider saintly human beings aren't aware of their saintliness. They're just operating from that place.

Yeah, of course that happened. If you are in a pure awareness, there's no such thing as we talk about that there is no good or bad. So there is no conceptualization of good and bad. But the behavior is saintly anyway. From the outside it will appear as a good, as ethical, as compassionate, as loving, because that's what happened even in the pure Awareness. There's pure awareness, which is transparent, clear and colorless. If what's needed is love, it turns color into golden color or golden color appears in it as love that is needed by the situation individual. You know, I liked Ram Dass when he talked. When he. Remember one of his seminars, talking with the Buddhist teachers who talk about awareness, he said, there is also loving awareness. You talk about loving awareness. And I saw he knew it. He understood loving awareness. He had awareness that was golden.

Yeah. And at the very end of his life, when his aphasia was very bad, he could barely speak. He'd just sit there saying, loving awareness, loving awareness, loving awareness.

And I remember looking at him and seeing it, seeing he had that transparent awareness that had a golden color. So it was loving, although it was a pure awareness.

Yeah, it was beautiful.

While the people around him, they knew awareness always didn't have the color of golden.

Hameed I want to get to some more of these dichotomies because you have some more that are really meaningful in so many ways. And particularly you point to the importance of the dichotomies of first the one and the many, but also duality and non duality. Of course, non duality is such a kind of buzzword in the spiritual circles these days, but you point out that it's a little tricky because even to apply the term non duality to true nature is to try to f the ineffable, to put a concept or fit true nature into a category.

Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, it is the conundrum. And it is sort of difficult how to speak because you call it non dual to say there's no separation. Basically, there's no duality. However, in this dimension, duality and non duality are dichotomy, two sides of a conceptual dichotomy. So we're still looking at things conceptually. When we talk about non dual. When you're in this place, you don't say non dual. You have no idea what dual and non dual is. You're just pure awareness, being fresh and aware and functioning in a loving way without knowing you're functioning in a loving way.

Like the saintly person wouldn't say, I'm such a saint, you know.

Yeah, yeah, the same exactly. Just like somebody who's really in a non dual. And this non dual can be with knowing. And we could call it non dual. This non dual dimension of non dual is beyond concept. So you don't say it's non. It is non dual without the concept of non dual. It's Non. Dual in the sense. There's no thing separate. It's unified fabric unified reality is. It has no. It's not like there are many pure awarenesses. There's one pure awareness, you know, But.

But Hameed, you kind of. You kind of break down all these different dimensions with the end goal of being able to put it all back together again in a co. Emergent. It's all there.

Yeah.

All of this stuff all the time.

Exactly. Which we will get to at some point. You're right. You're reading ahead. That's good.

I am. I'm sorry.

No, that's good. I mean, the listener need to know that. That we wouldn't. And I'm not breaking down. That's how it emerging in my experience. Yeah. Possible too. It's not the mind breaking it down. It's reality manifesting itself in different ways to show us the process of how things happen. You see, because the dichotomies are important for the development of the human being. You need the good and bad and you need being and non being. You need doing and non doing to function in the ego level, which is a necessary stage. And one of the dichotomies, for instance, is we talked about being and doing and good and bad and being and non being. But all the consumption dichotomies. And the important thing I wanted to say here is that when we begin to have hints of this dimension, those conceptual dichotomies arise as the obstacles. And that's why we need to see them as conceptual dichotomies that are not fundamental. They're not absolutely fundamental. So they arise because the whole edifice of knowledge and self are based on them. They are the ground building blocks of the later conceptualization and the later self images and the later identification. All of those require those dichotomies.

You see, it's the structure of the seed itself.

Yeah.

It needs to be there for the seed to be what it is, to become what it can be.

Yeah. But to go to the dimension, we need to go through these things. We need to experience them, recognize their usefulness, and be able to be without them. Yeah.

And jumping ahead a little bit, since you brought it up. I mean, there's a idea in developmental, adult developmental psychology that's the possibility of reaching a stage of what's called concept awareness. In which one recognizes that one's beliefs, all one's beliefs are just these mental constructions.

Yeah.

And instead of being reality, one can now step back and look at them and recognize them as just something manufactured by the mind. And Then one can use them choicefully, skillfully, effectively, but one is no longer ruled by them.

Yeah, and we give up. Usually the process of spiritual development, you give up some at a time, not all together. Usually unless you jump into this quantum leap into the non conceptual. But usually you will give up. You know something? I mean, when we work through our identification, we're working through. All the ideas are based on concepts. Remember, in discussing pure presence and its knowingness, I talked about basic concepts. Basic concepts is things like love and being. And you are knowing what is not created by the mind. You see, it's created by being. So life and knowing and functioning, all that are created by being in that dimension, we know them because that knowing implies a concept that later on, when it is abstracted and kept in the mind, remembered, it can be then reified. When it's reified, it can be used as a building block for the self. So you see how the stages of the building block for development of the self requires. First it needs the awareness for it to even have experience. Then it needs knowing to be able to orient itself. And that the knowing has then developed into mental knowing because of memory, you know, and impression. That experience impresses us, leaves imprints on us. And those impressions become reified, become like realities on their own. Something in our mind, and we hold onto it as true always. So like holding on to our pain, for instance. How do we hold onto it without some kind of reified concept? There's no reified concept of that event that caused the pain. It will go away, you see, so.

So concepts are not bad. Except when they become our prison bars.

Yeah.

Until they are reified or they become something that rarefied.

And after the identification with them, believing them to be fundamentally true and you can't live without them. That's. That's the prison bars. Yes.

So when you could hold them in this more awake, more transparent way, they're. They're not bad in themselves. They're. They're part of being. But it's when we reify and make them our prison bars and, and they keep us locked into our separate identity.

That's a good way of saying. It's a way of saying it, John.

And one of the concepts dichotomies you point to as being really important on the spiritual path. And you actually lay out a progression here as the dichotomy of something is meaningful or meaningless.

Oh yes.

And you point out that there's a interesting journey here that we have. And particularly anyone who's on a path has a deep need or felt need for meaning. And until there's the realization of one's true nature, one recognizes this is what's truly meaningful in life.

Yeah, yeah.

And you point out the paradox that at that point the meaningless dichotomy kind of fades away and it can feel like a loss.

Yeah, yeah. Because many people begin their spiritual journey because their life feel meaningless. And looking for the meaning of life. What is the meaning of my life? And you cannot find it in the external world. You find it in a journey, you know, a spiritual realization. Until you recognize your true nature, your essential nature. And that becomes. So the meaning is not a concept, you know, something that can be. It is actually the beingness itself. It is the presence itself. When we feel that the sense of looking for being disappears, that becomes the true meaning. That's why I think the Sufis, when they refer to presence, they call it meaning.

That's nice. I mean, that's really powerful.

I was surprised to see it, that the Sufi, the word for it, Arabic word mana, means meaning. They don't say present, they say meaning because it is the meaning of life.

Ugh.

To live that.

I just got that. That's very, very good.

Thank you.

Yeah. And. But then when we go to the non conceptual, we've gone beyond meaning because meaning is still meaning on the being level. Happens through gnosis, as the meaning is not something in your mind is your being is the meaning. But you know, being, you know, when you go to the pure awareness, the concept of being is gone. When the concept of being is gone, the concept of meaning is gone. And here you don't feel there's no meaning. There is just the idea of meaning is not there. It doesn't make sense.

Yeah.

You see, it's not meaninglessness. It's even meaninglessness is gone because meaningless is the opposite of meaning. It's a dichotomy, you see, and the pure awareness. We've gone beyond all conception dichotomies. So we don't feel meaning or meaninglessness. There's just pure freedom and freshness of the awareness.

And meaning is a manifestation, even though very maybe a subtle manifestation, but it's still a manifestation.

Yeah, meaning. It is a manifestation, but a manifestation of our being. You know, it's not just manifestation of our thoughts. Manifestation, our presence of our realness of what we are. Our real being is the true meaning. Of course, there are all kind of meaning in the world. You know, the meaning of this, meaning of that. But here we talk, what is the meaning of life? What is the meaning of existence. The meaning of existence is the recognition of existence itself. You see?

Yeah. And you link this also, Hameed, to the dichotomy of purpose and purposelessness and pointing out again that there are are stages on the journey here that it can feel very important to have a purpose and we can get very attached to that which creates suffering. But then eventually, ideally anyway, we realize true nature which transcends any purpose.

Right.

And then there's this sense of fulfillment without purpose. Kind of loses its meaning or significance.

Yeah. So that remind me of the Buddhist idea that we come to this life to get enlightened. Life is needed because human life is the only way we can get enlightened. That mean they're talking about purpose. The purpose of human life is to get to Buddhahood.

But purpose is not. Purpose is not bad, but it's just a necessary step on the road to realization.

Yeah, that's not bad. But we are at the ground of experience where it's pre purpose. You know, a question of purpose and no purpose are not there yet. I mean, you could say, you know, your functioning has a purpose, but you are not thinking of it that way. You're just functioning. You know, you're just loving, you're cooking. You don't say you're cooking to eat food. In fact, you might not know that you'll be cooking. And you go from one step to another cooking. And then you find yourself eating in the flow. The graduation from cooking to preparing to eating is in time. And the pure awareness is always in the moment. So you know you're cooking, you know how to cook and you cook, but you don't know you're cooking because you're going to eat it. And then you start eating and you forgot that you cooked it. You're just eating if you remember you've cooked is bringing a memory which is concepts into the pure function of eating. And you don't even call it eating. The universe is just changing, has changed the mind, called it eating.

And I'm probably jumping ahead, but that the universe is being recreated every instant.

Yes.

As well as annihilated. But it's.

Yeah, so it brings us to that. Exactly.

Yeah.

And because. Yeah, because we are also in pure awareness. It would be on the concept of time and timelessness. You know, time or no time, it's. Again, it's a concept, a useful concept. However, in this dimension of realization, there's no question, you don't even say it's timeless to say mean you're negation time. But timelessness and time Are the conceptual dichotomy.

It'S just the fingers of God wiggling.

Yeah, you could say that. But you don't even have a concept of God.

Sorry, Lord.

Yeah, I think the chapter gets into that.

Oh, it does.

The concept of deity is a concept. It's a good concept, it's a real concept. But in this dimension we've gone beyond concepts. So God's being God without thinking it is God.

You mentioned the universal heretic at one point, which is very powerful, that you get to the place beyond all the different spiritual traditions and teachings and this and that, and you're just that. And you no longer believe. You just know if I'm. If I'm understanding that. Correct.

Yeah, Universe. It's a good thing you bring in the universal heretic means in this place there is no believing in any teaching. There's no adherence to any teaching, any path. We're beyond it. We're beyond the idea of teaching path. So that's a universal heretic. I don't, you know, I can be within this teaching or that teaching or I mean, you could arrive at this humanity teaching. However, when you are having it, you drop the teaching and you drop all teaching. So in that sense, you never say a heretic. You don't believe in any of them because there's no belief. It's not like I believe, but I don't believe in those. No, there is no such thing as belief because belief requires concepts.

And also it seems like at this stage you're pointing to amid, there's the recognition again of all concepts or belief systems as mental constructions. And one sees through them in that way. But you point out, one is also free to use them in whatever way is most skillful.

Yeah. So that brings us back to the question is that for most of the time euphorialized individual, the pure awareness comes together with the pure knowing. Like the pure awareness, a pure being are non dual, inseparable. And that is where Zocchian I think perspective is knowing and awareness at the same time inseparable. And I got non conceptual. So why don't you remind me?

That's a trouble with being non conceptual.

That's what I'll be teaching. And then everything disappears. I sit there for a few minutes not knowing what to say until it comes, the conference comes and then I'm saying it.

We should all have this problem.

I bet that they're very powerful moments for your students and just this universal heretic.

But remind me, what was it we discussing?

Well, we were discussing non. The Non concept, universal heritage or.

And the universal heretic.

We.

We. I kind of got us that one. And, and my. My question I was going to ask is. Once you disregard all the belief systems.

Yeah.

Doesn't mean you go around the world negating everybody's belief systems, but you bring a new presence back to those belief systems that help people be where they're at and somehow bring.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Essential compassion or light or. I'm struggling for the words. So it's not that you walk around telling everybody they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong. It doesn't exist.

Okay. I'm reminded we come back to what I call the master of knowledge. That's what I think Raj was referring to, that the two dimension of pure awareness and pure knowing are all together present. That way you can know, but you can also be free from the knowing. So you can use the knowledge, but you're not bound by it. Wow. So you can use whatever is needed. You can know it and use it and talk through it. That concept, however, your sense of what you are is beyond it. That makes you the master of knowledge because you can have. You can use any knowledge, but you're not attached to it. It doesn't define me.

And I think you also point out, Hameed, that the master of knowledge does not mistake any knowledge or system or belief, belief system or tradition for the truth, but recognizes it as potentially useful pointer and can appreciate them all and play with them in a way.

Exactly. And that's what actually happened. That's why I like all teachings. I could tell which teaching is real or not. Not everything teaching is real, but most of the universal teaching we know about are real. They come from realized individual. And each one has a perspective. And I can see the perspective, understand it, benefit from it. In fact, DAM approach borrowed from many perspectives and its conceptualization and understanding of what's happening. So, yes, I see the conceptualization of the teaching and its usefulness, but I don't have to adhere to it. I can shift to another one because I can see all of them. I can go beyond any one of them. I can choose one of them, live within it for some time, but I'm not bound by it.

And I think you're pointing to your ability to see all these perspectives or teachings and their relative use and value. And it feels like. Are you pointing here towards what you call the view of totality, the recognition of. Well, I'll let you speak.

Yeah, yeah. That's what I call the view of totality. It's not in the book, in this book. Immutance and other books which hopefully we'll discuss at some point that there are other kind of realization. Even I'm talking about the five dimensions of non duality, but we're talking only about non duality, the other kind of realization that this book doesn't get into and that brings the view of totality. There's non dual. There's other kinds.

Hameed, you mean there's another book that I have to read?

No.

Only about.

They're not big as this one.

I've started writing everything out longhand. Huge passages.

Just it seems to help me read some of those. Like Runaway Realization for instance.

Yeah, yeah. It's my whole time. Favorite of yours.

Yeah.

That's when I talk about the view of totality, which mean the cause I am beyond views. I can have any view.

That's awesome. Yeah.

And I can have any view and let it go to another view. Or I can have two or three views at the same time.

But you're guided in your. Your perspectives by essential compassion and love.

If I'm not mistaken, all the views, all those views have compassion and love because they all come from our spiritual nature.

Yeah. And that's such a beautiful point. Thank you for bringing that back in. John, you point Samid to so many perspectives and penetrating insights and the penetration of multiple dichotomies and multiple dimensions of true nature. But you point out that all these profound ways of being or aspects of true nature express themselves in love and compassion. And that just gives a whole different flavor to the picture.

Yeah. That's why you see all spiritual teaching advocates love and compassion, you know, because it's inherent, our true nature, that there is a human being called heart. Heart, love, compassion, gratitude, thankfulness.

Yeah. True nature in love with its manifestations. Beautiful.

Yeah. And that's why we talk about love as one of the dimensions. Remember, one of the non dual dimension is pure love. Pure love, Everything is love. It's non dual, no separation, all that. That's when the first one we talked about. And that brings in the sense of trust, the sense that everything is okay. The goodness of reality, which of course is hidden for most people. They don't see that.

Yeah. I think in the Bible it says that perfect love casteth out fear. Perfect love leaves no room for fear.

You're right. That's what happens. Yes. I was listening to somebody last night, McGillicrist, I think his name is.

Yes.

And he was saying, mentioning about the basic teaching of Jesus is love, God and love thy neighbor. It's not ten commandments. It's just two. Love God and love thy neighbor.

Beautiful. Amit, I want to ask if there's anything I'd like to add, but I would want to just insert. Before you do that, I notice I'm feeling especially nourished by this dialogue and a combination of incredibly stimulated and intrigued, but also very full and nourished by it. So thank you deeply. Yeah. Anything you'd like to add?

Well, it's a question who's nourished?

Well, nourishment is enjoying itself.

Yeah. Okay, good. Because we could get into when we. I mean, language is very tricky that way. Somebody can be in a non dual thing. And they said I feel this and that and that. But using the word I feel can bring in the mind a sense of being an individual and all the way to a separate individual. But what do you mean really just pure being.

Yeah. Yeah. And there was a period of time when it felt appropriate not to use personal pronouns just to.

Right? Yes.

And yes, it is very tricky. And simply using those pronouns for me anyway tends to cohere. And one other thing I noticed that you've talked about transcending the separate self sense in many ways. And for myself there was this when there were initial recognitions of that and seeing through it, of feeling like, oh, that's done. But of course it just less subtle and subtle layers of selfing that just continue.

Yeah. Just remind me one time I was watching an interview of the 16th Karmapa. One of the channels was interviewed. We had an interview. He was there and a few his students were there and before he died and they were asking him some question and I noticed something. I don't know if the other people noticed this. When they ask him about the teaching, he would respond. When they ask him something about himself, his life, he wouldn't respond. He'll have one of his students respond. He wouldn't talk about himself. Even the Karmava was careful not to personalize it, you see.

But personalizing it is okay, right, Hameed? It's okay to be personal.

That's. It's okay. But you know, it's tricky. It could trap us into the person for a certain period. But that shows you somebody realized that highly is still being, you know, somewhat careful. You know, he doesn't. Basically he. For him, there isn't an individual with a history ask about history. Well, I talk to them. They know about President. I am just pure awareness.

On me this has been. I don't know if it's one of our best conversations. Always Think that every time we talk, but it's been a real feast.

Yeah. Hopefully he is the burst the mind. Yes. And make many bubbles and. And there are also ecstatic bubbles, you know.

Yes.

That's the way it feels. Yes. Thanks so much. Deeply appreciate it.

Enjoyment is happening. It is in this field that is appearing in pure awareness.

Yep.

That's how you talk when you don't want to use I.

Yes.

It's a challenge is occurring in this field of pure awareness.

Yeah. And gratitude for Hameed is arising.

The gratitude is felt.

Yeah.

And gratitude for all of you who are partaking with this, with us knowledge.

Yeah.

This was a lot of fun. A lot of fun.

Yeah. A lot of fun. There's agreement about that. I know you're interviewing all kind of interesting people. You have life that's full of interesting things.

You know, it's enormous privilege. I mean, enormous privilege. We just released a dialogue with Frank Ostaseski about death. And I saw that.

I know Frank very well. Awesome being. He's done a lot of good for humanity.

He is. There have been so many expressions pouring in of people saying. Literally, I cried listening to this. In fact, I got a call this morning just before we started talking from a friend who was saying she'd been crying.

Not just, you know, Frank's work is real expression of compassion.

Yes.

It's concrete, manifest, useful compassion. That's that. Real bodhisattva.

Yeah. And last week, we dialogued with Jerry Brown, which was a lot of fun.

Oh, Jerry talked to Jerry Brown. That's a politician. Yeah. He has. I know, spiritual orientation, you know.

Oh, yes. Yeah. We met because we went to work at Mother Teresa's center together.

I see. Yeah.

Yeah. He's great. He's 87 and still a ball of energy. And he said, you know, I still. I wake up every day just feeling enthusiastic about what's going to happen.

I'll vote for him if he runs.

Really? Won't we all?

Yeah, I am. I remember, you know, a few years ago, before Biden was going to run. There's a question, who will run? And I knew somebody who sort of close friend of his. I said, why don't you tell him to run? Many will vote for him. He said, well, he decided he's too old.

I said, well, he tried three times to be president. Ran for president three times.

Yeah. In that time, he could have won. At that time. Well, he demanded into it.

Well, he certainly served one of two well. Really? When studying his biography, it was clear he was just one of the great Great political figures of American history with his all he did four times governor of California, initiating recyclable this and that way before his time. I mean, he just was a pioneer. He's deeply involved in the.

Deep spiritual orientation, which is really nice to have a political figure with a spiritual, you know, insight.

Boy, ain't that the truth.

Yeah, that's rare usually, you know.

Yeah. I think I came away from our dialogue feeling like, Yep, this is pretty close to the philosopher sage.

Yeah, you're right. I agree with you.

Yeah.

And I liked him.

Yeah, yeah.

Of course.

He's likable, and that's why I wish he was president for a while.

Really?

Yeah.

World would be very different. Yeah, yeah. It's been a privilege. Definitely a privilege.

It is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, take care. All your interviews.

Thanks so much.

Thank you.

Hobby. Okay, Take care.

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