Frozen pArt 2

[00:00:00] Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season six, episode 39 of People Soup. It's Ross Macintosh here. And I think that as well as the, the sort of feminist message that's, that's there. I think there's another thing about the nature of love and what heals this world in the film. That is great and really important. Although magic is involved, it's not really, the world is solved and healed by magic.

Ben: It is in a sense, when we are looking through this lens, what heals the world, what, what allows them to move forward? It's psychological flexibility, right? It's, it's about being able to shift from those rules and those patterns and those fixed ideas that they were bringing to their lives and that were keeping them stuck and stopping that behavior change from happening.

But it's doing the work, making that change, not a wave of a magic wand. The magic happens because of the flexibility, not the other way around.

peace Supers. It's the second part of our [00:01:00] festive special, better late than Never. With Dr. Ben Askew. We continue our exploration of behavior change using the film Frozen. In this episode, we focus particularly on the song, let It Go. We discuss Elsa's use of isolation as a maladaptive coping strategy, contrasting it with her eventual journey towards psychological flexibility and authentic self-expression.

The conversation also touches on broader themes of love and vulnerability and how these elements connect to leadership and personal growth. I share a potentially parallel story from my coaching experience highlighting similar challenges faced by a senior leader in a global organization. The episode underscores the nuances of away moves, the importance of flexibility, and the deep, thoughtful storytelling behind Disney movies.

[00:02:00] Thanks for tuning in folks. People Soup is a podcast that mixes stories, science, and a sprinkle of daftness to explore what helps people thrive at work and beyond. our mission is to give you the ingredients for a better work life through insights and stories grounded in behavioral science, especially acceptance and commitment therapy, and other evidence-based approaches.

Before we go on, let's take a quick scoot over to the News desk. I am presenting two courses this year in collaboration with Joe Oliver and the team at Contextual Consulting. The first is called Building Better Teams, where I'll present practitioner approach to pro-social and act based collaboration in a three hour workshop on the 11th of February.

Collaboration and cooperation are the foundation of successful teams, but achieving them can often feel elusive. The pro-social approach offers a cutting edge evidence-based framework that integrates the principles of [00:03:00] ACT evolutionary science and Eleanor Ostrom's, Nobel Prize winning core design principles.

I will introduce you to the approach, my experience of using the approach and the core tools. The second course is called Leading With Purpose Act, strategies for Resilient and Authentic Leadership. This one is over three sessions, and I'll share with you fresh and practical approaches to support leaders showing how key skills rooted in behavioral science can help them develop and sustain their authentic leadership style. These skills are designed to enhance resilience, focus, and effectiveness, while supporting leaders to navigate the pressures and complexities of modern workplaces with clarity and purpose. You'll find that details of both of these courses in the show notes or over on contextual consulting.co.uk.

So it's time to get a brew on and have a listen to me and Ben reflecting on the challenge of change in arandal.

[00:04:00]

Ross: But Ben, I think it's time for our dramatic denoument

, which is moving on to the, the song you mentioned. Just now, let it

go.

I'll just share a few lyrics just to get us in the mood. The snow glows white on the mountain tonight, not a footprint to be seen, A kingdom of isolation.

And it looks like I'm the queen. The wind is howling like this swirling storm inside. Couldn't keep it in Heaven knows I tried. Don't let them in, don't let them see. Be the good girl. You've always have to be conceal. Don't feel, don't let them know. Well, now they know. Let it go. So let's just see if we can unpick that.

It's probably the most famous song from the film. And like you say, it's beautifully, song and produced. And For those of you who aren't familiar with the film, Elsa [00:05:00] isolates herself. She goes to her ice like kingdom on the top of a, a pinnacle of a mountaintop or something, and it's a massive. I think we could say in terms of the ACT matrix in a away move,

Ben: Hmm.

Ross: but, but what are the outcomes?

Ben: Well, it's, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I suppose picking up from where we were with Elsa in the fallouts of the coronation, we'll talk about how it, how it's. Reinforce that belief, that rule about I am dangerous. I, I can't be around people. But, but the other thing it's done it's shown that her strategies thus far now can't work.

In Her mind, They failed. 'cause staying behind the door, hasn't worked. It hasn't kept her safe. So, so she, in a sense, she's doing something different, radically different in her, in her mind, in her experience at the moment of doing it, at least of going right. I will stop doing all of that stuff that I've been doing.

I will go out to to the mountain, I will let all my powers do what they want to [00:06:00] do. I will. And, and, and create and be, be free in that sense. And it seems like it's this big surge of an experience of freedom. The freedom that goes with, with letting it go. Right? But whilst it looks radically different, in a sense, it's doubling down on exactly the same strategies because instead of just keeping the door shut exactly as she says, oh, now go out of it and slam it behind me.

It's just a shut turning a shut door into a slammed door, which is not as radically different as it first appears. It's, as you say, it's, it is just a grand scale away move. It's f it's following the same internal logic, right? Right. Of going, I'm dangerous to people, therefore if I can't keep myself isolated within the kingdom, I will isolate myself without the kingdom.

so it's kinda swapping one form of, of avoidance for, for another. [00:07:00] And what transpires, and we talk, you say the consequences there, are that. What she discovers, what we discover is that Anna and Aaronel are being neglected through, through this mo move in terms of her own

values and but also in terms of the, the, the kind of out there in the world consequences.

Aaron Dell is in deep, deep, deep, deep snow, right of going. It, it, it's had this impact on the things that are important to her and that are not workable, that are not sustainable, and that are not the kind of impact that she wants to have on the world. And that, and ultimately keep her further away and keep her isolated from those connections and those relationships that really matter to her.

Her relationship with Anna, her relationship with, with Erindale. but when that comes about. She just [00:08:00] doubles down again, you know, she summons up a snow, the, the big snow monster, and she pushes Ana away even harder because again, she finds out that the are problems in Arndale. She gets emotional, Ana is appealing to her emotions and she has to push away, push away, push away, push away.

And so as you say, in, in a sense, it is the grander scale away move of the whole film. I guess the flip side that we need to acknowledge and, and be aware of and might be interesting in terms of parallels you might draw with the workplace is that some values come out of it. There, there is a real connection to values that come outta this, this big rejection of the world because she allows herself to connect with.

The idea of self-expression, the idea of a kind of authenticity and although it [00:09:00] doesn't play out in a way that is workable, her discovering and connecting to those values and realizing for herself how important those might be is also a crucial thing that happens in the, the film. So whilst it is a bigger away move, whilst it is unworkable, it's also really important.

So I suppose it makes me think about, you know, it's, it is, it's almost that kind of like a, you know, the, a retreat that then that then ultimately does unlock something that allows her to go forward. So there is a kind of nuance to it. There is a kind of double edge to it in a sense, because if she didn't do this massive away move.

you know, would she have discovered, I suppose we could say, well, if she'd made some different moves along the way, she could have discovered, you know, different, more workable ways to discover self-expression and, and things. but I guess what I'm saying is it's an unworkable away move, [00:10:00] but some useful, valuable things do come out of it.

Ross: That's so interesting that it is an unworkable away move. But like, it's like you say, there's some useful things because we don't always consider that we, we can get a bit rule band ourselves and think of away

moves as,

Ben: Hmm.

Ross: as always unhelpful. But we'll look what this led to. And while you were talking about the castle, a former coaching client was popping up in my mind and it gotta keep this anonymous and I think I can, but it was someone I was coaching who's very, very senior in a global organization. And my first meeting with him for it was a man, he had this setup on Zoom where the camera was on the other side of the room and I could see this very ornate antique desk and some very fine art behind him. Which was I found out from a particular Chinese dynasty, and then the camera zoomed in to [00:11:00] him at his desk.

It kind of looked like the White House. It looked like the Oval Office, except with art behind him. And in his introduction, he told me things like how much the art was valued at, and he managed to tell me about his career and his, his targets for generating income on, I can't remember if it was daily or weekly, but it was in the millions and the number of properties he owned with the number of staff. And I was a bit thrown by all of this,

but it really felt like multiple barriers and obstacles going up to protect himself. Not let others in. So over the course, this wasn't all done in one session, but over the course of the, the coaching, I did really think, how can I best serve this very experienced and successful leader?

And it was through sharing how I interpreted and felt when he introduced himself, when he told me, [00:12:00] not just in that first session, but in other sessions about staff and properties and their value and trying to get him to look into the mirror. And it was, I see it as my job to reflect that back to him and, and tell him that perhaps people might find that intimidating or they feel they can't get near him.

There's a distance he's created and, and we talked about whether sometimes that might be intentional, but also he was prepared to start experimenting. And letting down those barriers and noticing the different outcomes he could achieve. So over time we expanded his behavioral repertoire. So it wasn't always from the get go this, this, this sort of learned

introduction that was really distancing people and saying, look, I know my stuff don't come after me. And he developed this more vulnerable aspect to his, his toolkit and [00:13:00] his way of handling people. And really over time appreciated that and, and was willing to experiment. So it was quite humbling in a way, and I'm not sure if I'm just rambling on or whether this perhaps relates similarly to the, to the castle and the isolation. I think there are, there are elements of it.

Ben: Yeah. Well, I think that there's certainly that. Potential isn't there? Both in Arndale and, and uh, I suppose in the, the Ice Palace that, Elsa creates for herself of, you could see that route, developing that route kind of on the, on the being on the cards. I get guess of, of her really just solidifying that, that isolation in the ice palaces and to the point where she could, you know, to, to go in a sense, proper ice queen in terms of re response to, to, to not take responsibility or, or refuse to care about Aaronel being in deep, deep snow, right?

And to go, actually, I'm all right [00:14:00] now in my eyes, palace and I will shut myself off and I will not deal with that. And I think that's, that's again, something we can all get drawn into as a possibility, right? Of going, well I found a place now that feels better for me. Um, so maybe. Maybe I just stick with that.

Maybe, maybe that will do. which isn't the, isn't ultimately the choice, the choice that Elsa makes in the, in the film, but, but it's something that we can all get drawn into, I think. and it is a different way that we can build up again, as you say, those kind of rigid barriers that keep us, that keep us safe.

And I was reflecting to to, to this thing we were talking about, about away moves and how we can get easily get drawn into being rigid and rule bound, but ourselves of going, away move, oh, it's an away move so, so, so bad. Right. Um, I think for one thing, you know, away moves particularly in that, in that strictly functional sense of [00:15:00] going away from, um, something that's painful or ver or aversive.

yeah, we need those, right. We need, we need those away moves somewhere it's not always the case that if fear shows up and I try to escape from fear that that's an unworkable thing. Sometimes that's a very sensible thing, but sometimes that's the thing that can keep me alive apart from anything else.

But also even when, like we were saying with, with let it Go, being ultimately an an unworkable away move. But if we then just categorize it, categorize that whole experience as therefore having no value. Because, because we've made that rule for ourselves, ourselves in terms of, uh, how we want to behave, you know, that, that's just adding to the rigidity, right?

Because in a sense, flexibility is about being flexible in how you respond and sometimes certainly in creative work, uh, uh, and I'm sure in. The, the many of the scenarios that show up for the people that you are working with as well, for all of us [00:16:00] in life. that actually something can be unworkable, something can be, you know, not the, the right way forward for us.

But if we are at least flexible and open to reflecting and seeing what we can learn from that, what there is valuable to pick out from that, it can really be a big part of that process of, of reflecting flexibly on. It can be a big part of what does move us forward. And, you know, and sometimes that happens in a, in a rehearsal process for, for instance, sometimes it's when the wheels really cut, come off for a mo for a moment.

and if you are rigid in how you respond to that, it can become disastrous. But if you're flexible in how you respond to that, it can actually be a moment that unlocks a lot of stuff. Because you can discover what's working and what's not working and why, and that's really important.

Ross: Yeah. Again, I love the way you describe it, that flexibility of response because when things go pear [00:17:00] shaped or the wheels fall off, we do tend to go, boom,

the blinkers come on, and we, we can feel that sort of anxiety, panic, despair, and it limits our perspective. We're missing out on how, this might be actually a moment where we could pause and just take a breath and. A different

way,

Ben: Hmm.

Ross: Ben, shall we finish with the theme of love?

Ben: Let's, how could we not.

Ross: Because there's a shift for both Elsa and Anna in the ideas of what

love is

Ben: Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the, one of the things that is rightly, celebrated about the film, one of the things that I think made people think this film was a big deal, was important in terms of the Disney storytelling was of course the setup of this idea that that true love is the answer and a true love kiss [00:18:00] and the expectation, um, through all of our cultural narratives.

And, and, you know, Disney has had its hand in many, of, many of them of going. So the, so the, the assumption is that that is, you know, Anna having a, having a snog with one of these blokes, right? what comes out is that the, the love that is being talked about, the love that that offers the way forward is the love between the si the sisters, right?

That, that, that it's, uh, that it's not just that kind of standard, you know, heteronormative, romantic idea, idea about, about what love has to be. That is the answer to everything. So there's that shift and that's, that's very, very big on the surface. I think what we need to see as well that I think you're alluding to it is how it's not just about the who, it's about the nature of what love is.

That shifts for both of them. And that shifts, I think, in act terms from something that is, that is rigid on for each of them to something that becomes more flexible and in a sense, because [00:19:00] they sort of take on and are open to elements that comes from the other's perception of what. Love might be in the sense of going, that Elsa's idea of love that she's cultivated or that has been cultivated within her is this idea that love is all about protection and control.

And that's how she expresses her love, and that's what love demands is that kind of, that level of self-control, not hurting people, not letting people be hurt. That's what love means. And Anna seems to come from a completely different standpoint, which we were talking with love as an open door of that love is romance and excitement and permission and, and, and everything feeling amazing.

and maybe what we see in the film is that neither of those, if we stick rigidly to them, gives us a good, helpful, workable. Idea of what love is as a, as a set of values that we might wanna, [00:20:00] make central to our lives, make our make love something that our lives is about. and through the journey of the film, they, they both shift.

And Elsa maybe comes to, to see or to be open to the idea that love requires openness and trust and vulnerability, and taking a risk and willingness, which are a word that gets used in act a lot, or willingness to accept that love means that you can hurt people and they can hurt you, and that if you are not willing, it goes to this sort of thing we talk about in acts with the kind of the flip sides of the value and, and the, the, the, the potential for pain that goes with it.

Of going, if you are not willing to, willing to accept the, the painful aspects and the risk of love, then you can't have love. You can't have one without the other. and also needs to go on a journey to, to see that, to see that, that, that to really [00:21:00] love. And it doesn't mean just protecting Ana. It means being with her, connecting with her, even though there is a possibility that that might be painful at times.

whereas Ana starts to shift and she has her experience with, um, with Olaf, of course, of course. Who teaches her something about what, what love might be. that love isn't always the fun stuff. It isn't always, that feels, that feels great and that permission and that that sense of, of freedom, because it also requires putting someone else's needs before your own.

It requires sacrifice sometimes, sometimes it doesn't always feel good in the mo in the moment to commit to love in a meaningful sense.

And so that there are two ideas of love, sort of find each other and find that proper value by, by being flexible enough to see what the other's [00:22:00] vision and ideas of love have to bring to the table.

What those different perspectives on love have to bring to the table. And I think that as well as the, the sort of feminist message that's, that's there. I think there's another thing about the nature of love and what heals this world in the film. That is great and really important. Although magic is involved, it's not really, the world is solved and healed by magic.

It is in a sense, when we are looking through this lens, what heals the world, what, what allows them to move forward? It's psychological flexibility, right? It's, it's about being able to shift from those rules and those patterns and those fixed ideas that they were bringing to their lives and that were keeping them stuck and stopping that behavior change from happening.

But it's doing the work, making that change, not a wave of a magic wand. The magic happens because of the flexibility, not the other way around.

Ross: Hmm. Beautiful. Yes. And yeah, [00:23:00] we started out talking about the challenge of behavior change, and I think for me, that last bit on, on love really speaks to, for leaders, for people in the workplace of holding your stories, holding your values lightly,

not being so attached to them that they, it creates a one way highway for you.

But again, opening up that perspective, this conversation has made me think, God, these films are really clever.

Ben: Yeah.

Ross: There's so many debts we, we've gone on for not enough an hour. And there's still so many scenes or, or moments in the films we haven't touched upon. So hats off to the creators of films like Frozen, which is a Disney film, but also I went to an exhibition in Seville. A couple of weeks ago on

Pixar and the work that goes on behind their creation. And aside from the creative process being amazing, the lighting of scenes and the, the animation, [00:24:00] it's just the development of those stories that is immensely complex and also very clever. Ben, I'm gonna say thank you so much for

joining me to explore Behavior Change through Frozen, and I'd like to wish you and your family a lovely, I was gonna say peaceful.

Is that possible with a young family? I'm not sure. But, uh, a lovely, festive season filled with, filled with love, and maybe a replay of

frozen.

Ben: Maybe we'll stick it on, on some, uh, cold afternoon over the, over the holidays. Yeah. And thank you so much for, for having me, and thank you to thank you to you and Yes, uh, all the best for the, uh, for the festive season to you and yours as well, Ross.

And that's it. Peace Supers part two of our reflections on behavior change in the bag and part two of our festive special, so sorry it was a bit delayed. It's just kind of life and a cold took [00:25:00] over. You'll find the show notes for this episode at People Soup Captivate fm or wherever you get your podcasts.

Next week I'll introduce you to Dr. Ben Sedley from New Zealand, a clinical psychologist who's written a great book called Holding the Heavy Stuff.

Okay, now more than ever, you can help me reach more people with the special people, soup, ingredients, stuff that could be really useful for them. So please, if you found this episode useful, do share it with people you know, and also, if you subscribe and drop us a review, it helps us get recognized in the podcast charts.

Thanks to Andy Glenn for his Spoon Magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. but most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and buy for now.

Ross: Don't let them in, don't let them see. Be the good girl. You've always have to be conceal. Don't feel, don't let them know. Well, now they know. Let it go.