In episode 202, we spoke with Paulik Galbraith about his book where he was talking about the land access and that was very specific to the UK and UK realities. And after that episode was published, a listener messaged me to talk about Irish realities of land access. And it quickly become that John, who is our guest today on the podcast, has quite a lot of experience in hiking and in issues of land access and clearly had all those things very well thought out. And so today we are going to talk about land access and issues related to that from the perspective of Ireland. And obviously this is Conservation and Science podcast where we take a deep dive into topics of ecology, conservation and human wildlife interactions. And I'm Tommy Serafinsky. I always strive to bring you diverse perspectives on the topics that we cover. And today is one of those diverse perspectives. John, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

I'm glad you responded to I think it was either post on social media or one of the threads and you responded with quite a few posts telling us and everybody your your thoughts. And obviously you have a huge experience in issues of land access and hiking and so on. So maybe just a few words of introduction, what you do, who you are, what you do and when you operate in Ireland.

Yeah. So my name is John Smith and I've been hiking for about 20 years. Actually, it's the 20th anniversary of joining the hiking club in Galway, which I joined when I moved to the city here. And so I've been hiking for the last 20 years, mainly in Connemara, and since 2018, I've also been part of a group called Mountain Metal Ireland, and I'm one of the organizers of the west of Ireland Branch. And what mountainmetal Ireland do is repair upland trails. And there's six different groups around the country. Some of them work on Kilcherland, but in the west of Ireland, we work on private land in cooperation with the Rural Recreation officers. And we've done some work building styles on land in cooperation with Mountaineering Ireland to, you know, where there's issues where fences are being broken down and things like that. So I've seen it from the point of view of a hiker who wants to go out in the hills and hike, but also as part of a group where we see where some of those tensions can arise with the volume of people accessing the hills. And my background, I grew up on a farm, so I totally understand the farming aspect as well. And I have to confess the thought of a lot of people walking over our family farm when we had it wouldn't fill me with much enthusiasm. So I'm particularly sympathetic to the farmer's point of view.

And look, this is probably every time we talk about land access, I'm saying I'm repeating the same thing. So I need to repeat the same thing now that I can equally make an argument for both sides because, you know, from the perspective, like you said, from perspective for the, you know, outdoors person, outdoorsman who wants to access land and just recreate, do whatever. And then also from the perspective of the landowner is like, hey, it's my property, you know, so I. It is, it is very interesting, let's say, topic also, also for. For listeners who are here for a long time and those who are not for a long time. When that podcast started probably seven years ago, it was called Tommy's Outdoors, and the profile was a little bit different. And I always wanted to do an episode about hiking back then, and I even had one, but it was like, not really in the Irish. So this is like a sort of like all things are coming together now I have you here and, and we're going to be talking about hiking, but not about hiking per se, but also from the perspective of land access. Okay. So I would like you, you know, first of all, you have like a 20 years of experience and you, I think you saw the transformation, how the things change. So over these two decades, you know, you mentioned like, it was like a small community of experienced hikers, walkers who were. Who are doing their stuff. And now, you know, like, I think you use the term boat, busloads of hikers, which is very descriptive and like, you can, you can do so. So paint us a picture. You or what changed in Comnen Mara Mountains over the last 20 years.

It's funny, when I was thinking about the podcast this evening, I had a memory of meeting somebody I knew maybe 15 years ago at a walking festival down in Walford or somewhere down there. And she had moved from the midlands of the west up to Dublin. And she would say, it's really hard to join club. They have waiting lists. And I was, I was surprised because in the west of Ireland that wasn't an issue. And really what's happened is that the, if you like those issues that were kind of already there in the east, you know, the Wicklow Mountains with just a huge volume of people has now arrived in the west. And, you know, it kind of started when I, you know, when I was hiking 15, 20 years ago. You could, you could hike through the bends or the 12 bends or the Mam Turk mountains on the best of days and not see anybody else. You'd be the only group. And occasionally you'd meet a tourist, like a hiker who was used to maybe alpine hiking or whatever, and they'd rave about. I remember meeting a French hiker in the 12 bends years ago and he said, this is fantastic scenery, but where is everybody? Like, I can't believe I have these mountains to myself. And then I think the start of the change in the west really started with the wild Atlantic way. And from a tourist point of view, that was really successful. It made a lot of places that were there more accessible. It mapped them out and people could create routes and start to visit places, and that volume sort of increased. Then of course, you had the whole social media, so you had people doing these hikes and they put it on social media and it would look super and, you know, they'd be raving about it. And that attracted other people. The hiking apps, of course, moved from dedicated GPS units to phone apps, and you could share those. So I mean, to give an example, you can, you know, you can download lots of routes for Muiri, which is, you know, at the mouth of Killery Fjord. Now, that's a tricky mountain to hike on. A lot of the approaches, one of them is not so bad. And when you get to the top, like, if conditions aren't really good, that can be a tricky situation. They're in place. But you have people downloading that and just wandering up on their own. And like, that's not a mountain, really. You should hike on your own. But our club will meet people regularly on their own up there. They're not really togged out for the weather to change suddenly. And then, of course, Covid was the final thing, because a lot of people discovered the outdoors, which was great, but it kind of went then from people who were in hiking clubs, which is really a small percentage of the country. I googled Mountaineering Ireland's membership, and it's less than 16,000. So it's a small number of people, but you have tens of thousands of other people now who will just check something online and decide, hey, we should climb here or we should walk here. And they may be looking at a trail that they downloaded from a seasoned hiker, but there's no context on the access or where you're going to park or whether really that access is no longer available, or more importantly, it's the time of the year when sheep are lambing and that's not a good time to visit. There was an issue Just there, not so long ago. Where? On Abbey Hill in the burren with the other side of Galway Bay. And it's a very popular. It's a very popular walk. There's a boring there. It's not a very strenuous hike. But somebody led a night walk there during the. I think it was the calving season. And the farmer was like, I don't mind people hiking, but that's the one time of the year you just cannot have people wandering up in the darkness because it'll scare the cattle. And, you know, he was so he, you know, that message went out to the clubs, but the clubs are only a small number of the people who will, you know, decide, oh, do you know what? It'd be great fun to do a night walk on Abbey Hill just because the sheer volume of people who are doing outdoor stuff.

Now question that I have is these mountains, when people are walking, like, is this, like, fundamentally private property? Is it belong. Does it belong to the state? Like, what is the ownership and how this is regulated for majority of it? Because one of the comments that you made that, okay, the situation, the regulation is a little bit different than compared in the uk, where in the UK it seems like a discussion revolves into large estates. While. And what was funny is that Patrick's comment on the 202 episode was that access in Ireland is rubbish. We don't have those large estates and the access is rubbish. So I'm curious, like, what's your take on this? Do you really think that the access is rubbish because we don't have those estates? And at the same time, you know, how does it work that all this hiking is going on on the land, this private property, essentially?

Yeah, it's a good question. And I don't think. I don't think access is rubbish, but it is becoming worse. And it turns to your original question. In Connemara, most of the land is privately owned. Some of it is common age. So the side of a mountain would belong to 15 or 20 farmers and they'd have grazing rights on it. And then some of it is. Is single. Single farmers. And really, you know, the issue has been, of course, that for years, small numbers of people were hiking on those mountains and it wasn't an issue. The farmers really didn't care, didn't mind. They tolerated it. And there's no upside for a farmer in Ireland, really, to allow hiking on their land. There's no benefit. The best that can happen is very little damage will be done. They're like, but, you know, their fences get broken down. And I've even seen who I would consider reasonably experienced people, you know, hopping over fences in a way that as someone who's had to put up fences when I was a kid, I wouldn't be happy with that, you know, straining the wire and climbing gates at the wrong pier so that you're putting a strain on it. Simple stuff. But really. And those are people who are in hiking clubs. So I can only imagine somebody who just decided to go out for the day. You know, there's very little. They'd have very little experience on what to do. But, but yeah, the land is, the land is privately owned. I mean, in Britain they didn't have a revolution. So those, those estates are, you know, they're, they're centuries old and they have this tradition of, you know, somebody owns a lot of land, there's tenant farmers on it. But, and, and because it's very much a. An urban. I mean, most the population live in urban areas. That's only starting to happen in Ireland. You know, my generation are probably the last generation, maybe the one behind it who really, where we were, the majority were maybe from the countryside, are very small towns. But as time goes on, Ireland will become a more urban country as well, where most people, you know, they don't have. Won't have a direct link to farming anymore. So the access today, I mean, what we would consider traditional routes on the quite scenic mountains in Connemara, there's just far more people showing up at them and most people drive and then you just end up with either 20 or 30 cars along a road that's just not fit for them. And in our club we try and carpool. So if there's going to be a. A choke point, we might meet at recess or mam. Cross or somewhere and park cars there and then take just enough cars to get to where we're going. But, you know, but there has also been cases of literally busloads of people showing up to do a hike. And what really bugs the farmers, of course, is where you have professional guides leading walks. And I mean, I really, from the farmer's point of view, there's no permission. And there's a couple of places I won't name them because I don't want to give away the actual farmer's name, where there's always been really good access. But of late they're discovering that there are groups showing up, they have paid someone, so they have a sense of entitlement because maybe they don't understand the background. But that guide has not got permission from the landowner. And, you know, from the farmer's point of view, he's going to be picking up plastic bottles and, you know, bits of stuff that's fallen out of rucksacks and whatever. And his fences are not designed to be crossed by walkers. Like, they're designed to keep sheep in place.

So.

The conflict and the potential for conflict is, I would say, growing. So where we. Slowly but surely, I think the access is becoming an issue. And it's really becoming an issue because the goodwill that landowners were showing is being used up with the volume of people who are showing up.

How did that happen? Because you mentioned those commercial guides operating. Is that really a commercial guy, like a business, or is it just opportunistic? The guy was up there, you know, 65 times, and now group of people want to go. And he goes like, oh, you know what? You pay me a tenor and I'm going to. So I'm just trying to. Or is it like, you know, like, okay, there's a. Here's. Here's the business. And are they not aware or are they, like, exploiting the goodwill of a farmer knowing good and well what they're doing?

I. I don't know if I could be very definitive, definitive about it. I mean, you have outdoors people who, you know, who are professional guides in the sense that they will lead hikes on walking weekends, which always do have permission and, you know, the insurance will be sorted out and all that sort of thing. I don't really know. I've never engaged with any of them. A friend of mine in the club actually came across an advert for somebody who was offering. And he knew the route and he knew for sure that route was already a route where the farmer was unhappy with the volume of traffic. There was no way that that had had permission and. And, you know, you'll get more people. Now, you see, it used to be that most hikers were kind of from the general catchment area, but, you know, we have a pretty good motorway network now, so, you know, you can get people coming from a much longer distance out to Connemara. If you get on a bus, you know, you can. You can. You can travel from. You can travel from Dublin, you can travel from a long way away. So you don't really. You're just coming, using the facilities and leaving. And. And then you might not have the same duty of care. And certainly if you're a hiker, I know myself. You know, when you're in a hiking group, you kind of follow the leader and you kind of expect that the leader has done the work and you don't ask too many questions.

So no. And you know, like someone was upset, they saw that. I could only imagine how upset is the farmer who looks at it at the adverts like, hey, this is my land. Like, what are you doing? Because, you know, like, I guess it would be quite different dynamic if that professional guide goes to a farmer and said, like, hey, this is what I want to do. You know, I'm charging people this now, you know, I'm going to pay you, like, whatever for the effort or for the, you know, as a courtesy. But yeah, this is, this is terrible. And, and tell me so in, in general, like, how is, you know, I'm just curious, I'm just trying to explore both sides of the story. Like on one side the farmers are not happy and they say, like you mentioned, like, oh, they're not happy with the volume of the hikers. So what do they do? Like, what's, you know, are there, can they close the trail? Can, can they fence off? Can they, you know, remove the people? And then the, on the other hand, are there people who are aware of that? Like, hey, you know, because at some point they're aware that they're on the land of the farmer. Like, are they sort of understanding while the farmer is not happy or they're trying to adopt or is it like a, you know, like a sense of entitlement through and through?

Well, you see, the irony is of course that the people who would be more sensitive to the farmer's needs are the regular hikers, somebody who's joined a club. Like if you're in a Galway or west of Ireland based hiking club, you generally have an idea of where access is not a problem and where access might be a problem and you try and avoid the places where there might be a problem because you don't want to annoy the farmers. But they're a subset of the people who can show up any weekend and decide, hey, do you know what, let's do the 12 bends tomorrow and they can drive down from wherever parked car, hike, you know, I mean, the farmers are not going to patrol the mountains. That's not something they're interested in. They might have an interaction with people. But to be honest, you know, if it was my land, I would not want to spend my days confronting people. You know, that's not something that most farmers want to spend any time at. They prefer to just go about the business and farm and, and I, I mean, I even see it in somewhere like Maumin, which is the mass path to a mountain pass in the mam. Turks. And it's always been a popular walk and, and access there is. Is. Is fine, but it's. It is actually belongs to a farmer. And there's a grotto up and it's a. Maybe it's a two or three kilometer walk on a. On a. On a pathway and. But there the volumes have just gone completely crazy because it's an easy walk to do. And the only thing the landowners ask is no dogs. And that request is ignored pretty much every day. And, you know, and the farmers could say, please, can you leave the dog in the car? Or whatever. And you know, because there's sheep everywhere. And that's the one request. And it is, of course, the. It's the people who are gonna drive out from Galway for the day and say, hey, yeah, we could do mommy. And it's a nice hour. I will bring the dog, get him out for an hour. And they'll walk past five or six signs because there's a lot of signs there. And it's just. Yeah, it's just people, you know, so. And you know, there'll come a time when. And people have been high, have been walking that path because it joins two valleys in Connemara. And the traditional. It's called a masspath because if you lived in one parish but you were born in the other, when you died, they carried the coffin over the path and there's a flat rock on the top. So, you know, for the rest of the coffin and say a few prayers and, you know, there's a grotto up there. This is a path that's steeped in, you know, thousands of years of tradition. But, you know, it's getting to the point where if you literally have so many people showing up and, you know, disregarding the one request, at some point, you know, it's going to be very difficult for those landowners to. To put up with that.

Like we said again in the previous, most people are just specifically want to get their dog out. So if there's. If that's the reason they there, they know they. They. They gonna ignore. They came with a, you know, either they knew and they. They gonna ignore it. They were ready for that, or they already there with the dog. That was the reason. So they're gonna ignore it. We're gonna. I want to come back to the dogs in a second. But from your experience and from your club experience, like, have you, as a club or as an individual engaged with farmers in Any way talk to them and say like, hey, this is what's going on, this is what we want to do. And then I'm curious, like, what was the reaction and maybe more general, what sort of conversations did you or you as a club ahead with the farmers about this issue? Because surely you discussed that.

Yeah, I mean, you know, Mountaineering Ireland do a lot of work sort of where there's access issues that they try and get involved in the try and mediate and, and try and find an accommodation. And you know, and by and large farmers generally do not object to if you like proper hikers. But as I say, the problem is that on the best known hills now, the volume of people has gone way beyond what Mountaineering Ireland would represent. So the challenge is that in good faith our club could talk to farmers about a particular route that we've taken for years. And in the past where there was, where we would meet a farmer, they'd usually ask, okay, what club are you with? And we said call away walking club and that'd be fine. But, but now with the volumes of people, you know, you've got lots of people who aren't in clubs and you know, they're just, they're just, they're just out for the day. And that, that, that engagement, if you're the farmer, it's like, well, who do I talk to? I can talk to Mountaineering Ireland, but they're only one group. We have far more tourists now because as I say, the, the, the, the Wild Atlantic Way is really popular but, but people are coming from countries where access is different and it's never really pointed out in, in any of the tourist stuff. Oh, by the way, these mountains that are in every tourist picture, you know, you might, maybe you could hold off from climbing them because why would you, you know, if you, if you've come from France or Switzerland and you think wow, that, that's, that's something I like climbing in the Alps, I've climbed the 12 bends. But you know, it's if, if, if 10, 000 people do that, then you know, you just, you can't get in or out of the place. So I think, I think it's, I think it's challenging for the landowners in the sense that who do they, who do they negotiate with? Because it more and more you see the, I mean, I don't want to sound exclusionary, but it is either the more casual hikers or people who are maybe not as local to the area and as sensitive to it, but it is the volumes I would say is. Is causing a huge problem because just you, just so many people on trails that aren't really developed. I mean, I was hiking in Snowdonia last year. I mean, you come to a style. There's a style for the humans and the style for the dogs and the trail is marked, you know, all the way in really wild mountains and there's agreement with the landowners in terms of access. And I mean, if you're from St. Joan, you came over to Ireland and you assumed it was the same, you'd get a fright because it's absolutely not the same.

So it's like implied that the access is agreed but isn't really. It's been tolerated. Sort of like in the unwritten, very.

Irish thing, we don't write stuff down and as a result it's, you know, it kind of. Nobody really wants to grasp the nettle of, well, how do we solve this problem? Because, you know, we have to respect farmers ability to go about their business and it is their land, but yet we don't want to say actually we're only going to have a chosen few who can, who can access the outdoors.

Is there a perception on the farmer's side that they're just being screwed over? So, for example, the likes of Wild Atlantic Way, this is like a national nationwide campaign, let's say an advertisement and whatever turns out White Atlantic Way. And at no point, and actually now when you're saying like, at no point I found anywhere information of like, hey, by the way, you are accessing private land and you walking, you know, it's just a courtesy of a farmer who lets you. Because otherwise like. So is there that perception on the farmer side? Because like, and then like, like you mentioned, like, who am I, who am I going to talk to? There's like no one point to talk to anyone. So do you see any, you know, like, what is their, their view on that? And do you see like they're being more and more annoyed and are they trying to do anything about it?

Well, I mean, I, I don't want to speak for farmers because I'm really actually.

Yeah, yeah, of course. But from your, you know, your, what.

You can gather, I, I mean, it kind of depends on the actual mountain or area. Some areas are getting really hit with just a lot of traffic and I think for some of those farmers, you know, as I say, I'm not sure if, you know, for farmers generally they're represented by the Department of Agriculture and I don't know if there's anyone in the Department of The environment or the Department of Tourism, that is as voluble about. We need to fix this because, you know, as the Department of Agriculture would be for farmers, but for the Department of Agriculture, it's. Farming is, you know, it's for food. And you know, actually if we have to make a choice to just let, let's just use the land for, for farming and, and never mind tourism and, and. And the other stuff. And it's kind of a great shame really, that, that, that the people who should be representing farmers interests as landowners and the wider thing, rather than just how much food can they produce from their holding. I, I think things would be a lot better for everybody if, you know, if the state represented farmers in more than just one narrow view, which is agriculture, that it was as strong for farmers on the environment to say, okay, farmers have a contribution to make, but they also need to be rewarded and acknowledgement acknowledged for that contribution. And also from the tourist point of view, the Wide Atlantic Way is great for if you want a coffee shop or if you own a hostel or a hotel, but, but if you're a sheep farmer in Connemara, you know, now you can't get your tractor past the camper van or 100 camper vans or 200 camper vans. So. So yes, I mean, it's good for the local economy, but a lot of these people are moving through and, you know, other than where they're staying, the benefit is not as, as, as impactful for the landowners. And the reality is people are coming to look at the scenery. And so, So I think, I think the way forward has to be that, that there is a. There's a more. There's a wider view and a total view of, of the contribution that, that farmers have as landowners and guardians of, Of. Of the land, of the landscape.

There's the most hated word, regulation, but, you know, like, oh, you don't want reg. But at the same time, if you're a farmer. John, let's go back for a second to dogs. For someone who listens to that and say, oh, what are the dogs gonna do? Like, what's the problem with the dog? Can you lay it out? This is like a devil's advocate question, really, but I just want to hear it from you. Like, what are the main problems with the dogs?

I mean, I like dogs, but dogs chase stuff. And, you know, every year there are tales of, you know, terrible tales of farmers finding sheep, you know, savaged or worried or stressed or whatever, and stressed sheep will abort. I mean, it's no fun finding that. And similarly with cattle. And the thing about cattle, in some sense, it's a bit more dangerous for the dog owner because cattle will turn in charge because that's their instinct. And I mean, during COVID there was a tale in Wicklow of a couple who'd lost their dog, and it disappeared for a few days. And we chased a deer and eventually found it. And, you know, it was kind of a good news story in the news, but the farming organization was saying it was a loose dog. Okay, it was chasing a deer, but it was chasing the deer in sheep, you know.

What else was he chasing?

Yeah, you know, exactly. He came back two days later, so he was hardly chasing a deer for two. So, you know, we really don't have that. I see in the uk Just because I visited a bit, and having been in Snowdonia a couple of times not so long ago, I was impressed how they had. There was facilities for dogs that were dedicated. If you're going to walk your dog, walk them here. Here's the path, and, you know, here's where you do it. And we don't really have that at all here in Ireland. So, you know, people just show up in, you know, somewhere and let their dogs lose. I mean, it's a bugbear of mine. I live in Galva City. You know, if I'm walking down in south park or along Silver Strand or wherever, people happily watching their dogs chasing the birds. And it's like, yeah, but that's why no birds nest here anymore. And whatever about the city where. Okay, you can accept that it's fairly busy. I mean, you could. You can go out to Connemara and to some lovely beaches, and there's a dog driving every single tern and oyster catcher off its nest, and the owner's just going, hey, look, Shep, it's having fun. You know, so it's. We don't really have a good. I don't feel we really, as a country, have. Have good dog etiquette. And when it comes to. Yeah, when it comes to bringing them out on. On land, I mean, you know, pretty much no farmer wants an animal, even if it's on the lead on. On their land, because it just drives the animals mad.

And especially, like, is. There's, like. And I don't think this is, like, specific to Ireland. I mean, like, everywhere. Like, keep it. Keep your dogs on the lead. And then people are not keeping dogs on the lead. Oh. Because it's like, it's not gonna, you know, harm. Like, I want to just say two things here while we. On the subject of the dog for dogs for you, you obviously know that, John, but for the benefit of listeners and viewers, number one, there are special training places that can train your dog to behave around livestock. My friend runs one of those training facilities and they have like a regular dog training thing, so it doesn't pull on the lead and so on, but they have like a specific specialized program to teach the dog behave around the livestock. So that's one thing. And that works like you give it. You can drive with your dog for a number of days or you can leave the dog at the place with him for a couple of weeks and he does the training. And there's like a. More facilities like that across the country. So that will help because that dog at least knows what's up. Like, you know, like my friend says, like, sheep looks funny, smells funny, and dog thinks it's a great crack. So sort of do that thing. And the other thing is people who think that, oh, my dog wouldn't, wouldn't harm a fly. And I know the story of, of, of a, of a person who had a dog who wouldn't, wouldn't harm a fly. It was like a, like a bigger dog and it never harmed a fly. But then he found a sheep dead, killed by his own dog on a farmer's field, and it was like, oh, shit. Right. So obviously him being a reasonable person, he went to the farmer and, you know, squared it away and that was the end of that dog's freedom. So anyone who knows anything about dogs and livestock knows. So, like, folks, you know, it's not true. Like, oh, my dog wouldn't like, no, it's not true. And sometimes, like you said, sometimes the sheer presence of a dog who just runs around and wants to play that sheep doesn't know that sheep gets stressed.

That's exactly it. Actually. I was up on Main. We were doing some repair work on the trail a couple of years ago during the summer, and I was very busy there, and a bunch of youngsters arrived up in the car and one of them, she had one of these little kind of toy dogs, a sausage thing of a yoke. And I thought, but again, let it run free. I was thinking, you know, you could just carry that thing if you had to, you know, but the signs are fairly clear. And the second she put it down, this little thing that, you know, once it was on the ground, you could hardly see it over the head, went straight for the sheep and chased the sheep about a kilometer in the End the farmer actually had to come out and collect the dog and brought it back. And I thought he was very restrained actually, because I don't think I would have been as much. And she was kind of. Well, he's never done that before and. Well, he hadn't seen a sheep before, but the sheep didn't know. It was basically an oversized hamster. Like it was a dog and it had a reaction and he drove the sheep, you know, off down the mountain. So you know, even if your dog is small for the sheep, there's, there's millions of years of instinct which is I'm stressed and I need to run away from, from that barking thing. And yeah, it's not good.

Yeah, that farmer like, he's like, yeah, he brought the dog back. Well, yeah, lady is happy. She'd be happy that she got her dog back because that dog could just like disappear.

Absolutely.

The farmer's shed. Listen, John, I just want to touch on another aspect. Very important liability question. And I, I think this is not discussed nearly often enough and that is based on what I know, sometimes a source of stress for farmers. I heard about a story where there was a, there was a boardwalk on the farmer's land over the bog or something built not by a farmer, but one of those corporations with recreational officer and so on. You can, you can, you can talk about this. This is sort of like a three way partnerships later on and, and lady had like a, you know, shoes completely not suitable for this sort of environment and surface. And sure enough she twisted her ankle and she sued a farmer. Right. Like to me it is outrageous. It is outrageous first of all that the, that this, that the, this legal system in Ireland is not such that would, you know, kill that off right off the bat because that lady should be laughed out of the, whatever office she, she went in. But it's a real thing. So can you lay down all the issues related with liability and who can sue who and like how does that work?

I mean Tommy, you, you, you ask about what the legal system should do. The legal system is its foundation, its funding is based on, you know, people suing other people. And you know, every time you see a court case that makes your blood boil. You know, you got to remember, not only do the lawyers, that's what they've been raised to do, but the judge has come from that pool as well. So it, you know, it's, you could run a whole podcast series on, on, on liability in this country and you, you definitely have plenty of polarizing opinions on it. But if we take the land. I mean, as I say, part of what we do in mountain metal is we build some styles for farmers. And the first question is liability. And in our case, they're actually Mountaineering Ireland. Cover it under their insurance, and we couldn't do anything otherwise. And the farmer wouldn't. I mean, the farmer rightly would not allow a style to be put on his land if he wasn't covered under that insurance, because then he would be liable. And, you know, there has been some. There's been some adjustments that were made. I think in 2022, there was a case, 2017, where a woman was walking on a path and she tripped and sued. I think it was. I think Parks and Wildlife were looking after them. And I think maybe went to the circuit court first and she won her case. But then on appeal to the High Court, it was overturned. But in the intervening period, it was probably about a year. It felt like a year at the time. I remember when that case, the original case went through, no trespassing signs went up on every farm because effectively there had been a law introduced which was to reduce the liability of landowners to prevent some of these cases where really a landowner, somebody had come onto the land, caused an injury, and then sued the farmer's insurance or the landowner's insurance. So in 2017, it was thought, okay, we've dealt with that. But then this case happened. Okay, it was overturned on appeal. But in the meantime, for a lot of landowners, and I think the advice from farming organizations was, look, you need to protect yourself, so at the very least, make it clear you're not welcome. And I think that actually was the start of, you know, that. That whole skepticism by landowners, which is. Even when the government passed a law, you know, a judge can interpret it in a certain way. And yes, it was appealed, but I don't know about you, Tommy, but if I had to go to the High Court to appeal something, I don't have that sort of money lying around to do it, and.

Exactly. And the time and the headache and.

The stress and the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the legal system is not cheap and it's not fast, and that's a problem everywhere, but it is a problem for land access. So coming back to. So if you're in a hiking club and you're a member of Mountaineering Ireland, there is an insurance policy. In fact, it's about half the fee, and that provides a liability insurance, so that when you're hiking, there is cover. And the idea is that the farmer is not liable. And as I say, In, I think, 2022, the law was updated to go into more detail on the liability. And it really pushes the responsibility to the person who's come onto the land, and particularly where you've come onto the land without the express permission of the farmer. And the expectation is, you know, if you're hill walking, it's an activity with a certain level of risk and you have to accept the consequences yourself. Now, I don't think there's been any challenges to that law, but you never know. And you don't want to be the farmer who gets a summons and goes, hang on, I thought we were protected from this. And then who do you go to? So the land thing, we have a legal system in this country that is. I don't know if it's worse than other countries, but it feels like very little can happen without somebody having to pay for it. The concept of something being accidental, it seems to be a strange concept. Here in Galway, they put down a cobblestone street not so long ago, and then they had to pull it up because people were apparently tripping on it the whole time and suing the council. So now it's just tarmac. And I was thinking you can go across Europe and walk cobblestone streets that have survived wars and apocalypses and apparently the citizenship can get. Can get over them just fine. But we have a liability situation in our rather illegal situation in Ireland where, you know, where. Where a lot of lawsuits happen. And, you know, just the. A lot of the time insurance companies, you know, they're, you know, if you run the business and get sued, they say, we'll just settle. It's cheaper than going to court. So. So a lot of that happens. So the current situation is that I think since 22, the duty of care is much more on the walker or the, the intruder or the, the person who is on the land rather than the landowner. But I don't know if it's been tested in court yet, so who knows?

Do you. Have you seen more like trespassing, do not trespass, you know, signs up since the, you know, when you started. Is it. Is that. Is that the thing that there is more and more of these, like you said, farmers making people aware that they're not welcome, even. Even just. Just to be on the safe side?

Yeah, I mean, well, Certainly after that 2017 case, a load of signs went up. I mean, and all those signs are still there. I say compared to 20 years ago, there's a lot more signs, and I'm not surprised. I know the farming organizations have, you know, you can get signs which say this is a working farm, you know, that access is, you know, should be by express permission, all that sort of thing. So. And it's kind of a standard statement and you'll see that on a lot of gates. And I think probably the farming organizations have driven that. But certainly after that original court case where the original one where the law didn't protect the landowner, those signs went.

Up everywhere then gee, yeah, I would do that too if I were a landowner. I would. Probably the grumpiest landowner ever, to be honest. That's what I'm saying. Can equally see, see both sides. John, listen, let's switch the gears a little bit and, and talk about something more positive, not, not just to be like a. So negative about it. Hiking at the end. It's a, it's a, it's a lovely way to spend time. It's outdoors, it's on the fresh air. Tell me about this three way partnership between the club and the Mountaineering Ireland and Rural Recreation Officers. Like one of the early episodes with like a rural recreation officer, I thought this is the coolest job title ever, recreational officer. So tell us a little bit on these, on these initiatives. How do they work and what's the goal?

There's a small group, I think there's probably less than 100 of us and we're always looking for volunteers. So anyone who comes across as you could, it's very easy to join.

Yeah, we're gonna put the links in the description of the show, by the way.

Super, super. So we're affiliated with Mountaineering Ireland and actually their insurance policy covers us for the work we do as well. But the rural recreation officers, every county has one and they're responsible for all the way marked trails in the counties. Now actually I do think it is a cool job and the people we've worked with in Galway and Clare are really good. They're very enthusiastic and what they do is of course they arrange the work. So in Clare, so you've got these burren walks and a trail that we have done a lot of work on over the years is the Ballyvaughan to Fynor Trail. And that is a beautiful trail. If you want to hike somewhere in the burren on land on a trail that you have permission to hike on, you're overlooking Galway Bay, you can see all sorts of wildlife. We've seen like peregrine falcons there because they're breeding up in the hill. And so the rural recreation officer will, will work with the farmers, because that trail runs through farmland. And then they will work with us to arrange the plan of work. So. So we've been fixing flooded spots on the. On the trail. We've helped one of the farmers, who actually is a stonemason, to repair some of his styles. So he was kind of teaching us how to. How to do the work, which is great. And obviously it's good to meet one of the landowners as well. And then in. In Connemara, where there has been some issues with fences being broken down by walkers, we've put in styles. And so. So the. The RROs now actually. Sorry, the styles. I need to be careful. The RROs are responsible for the Waymark trails, but actually some of the styles we've put in are not on Waymark trails. We actually don't advertise where they are. They're part of long hikes that if you. If you're hiking through Connemara and you're a more dedicated hiker, there are certain points where you need to cross fences. And we put in styles to stop the fences being broken down, but it doesn't imply a right of way, which is where we have to be very careful. And the farmer's anxious that, look, don't put this on Instagram, don't put this in things. So we don't advertise where they are because there's no implied. You still need permission from the farmer to. To hike in those. To hike in those areas. But it's. We do know that, or the farmer knows. Look, you know, a thousand people a year will. Will hike to this mountain ridge, and if they're going over the fence, it's better to go over a stile. So we've. We've built those styles with their help. So the RROs. Sorry, that's the styles. The rros say in Galway, looks after the Western Way, which is the long path that runs through Connemara and all the way up to Westport. And we've put up a style there. That's an official one. We replaced one and we've been doing different, fixing flooded patches and. And also the mass path on Maumin is part of the Western way. So we've. We've been building, you know, cross drains. It's on the side of a mountain. So, you know, the thing about mountains is the, the. It rains all the time and the rain just has one ambition, is to wash the entire path off the side of the mountain. So. So we do a lot of water work in terms of drainage, natural drainage. So we're using kind of the thing with the mountain mel is we use natural techniques. So we're not. We're not. We're using, you know, cross bars and water bars and cross drains, using the stone that's there. So we use the local materials, not using machinery or anything like that. So. So the ros kind of organize the permission and the access with the, with the farmers. It's kind of an unsung. It's sort of an unsung job. I didn't know a lot about what they did before I got involved with mountain mail, and they're really good. So along with Mountaineering Ireland, they're often involved in access discussions. And what they're trying to do is get more trails that are waymarked so that there is permission and they can appear on maps and the farmer is, is happy with the access. You know, so if, if it's the responsibility of the ro, it's effectively, effectively an official trail. And some of those run through Kielsha land. So. So a lot of. In some counties, I would imagine, you know, the RO and Kielsha do a lot of work together because the actual. All the trails are, they're actually owned by Kielsha, like in Dublin, the Dublin mountains. All those trails are, are Kielsha woods. And, and we've actually done some work in a couple of those building boardwalks and things like that, so.

Very interesting. John, tell us, for people who are interested in hiking, they like to go out and they like to hike and maybe they, they getting a little bit of a, you know, like a surprise. Now, listening to us, what would be your, your advice? So I presume that one advice would be, you know, join the club, join the, Join the hiking club, join the walking club. But maybe it's, you know, for some reason, maybe there's no walking club around. Maybe they don't know whether it's like walking club around. Like, what would you, what would be your advice to, you know, just, just try to find a farmer first and ask for permission or, you know, do what you do. Like what, how what? Like, you know, I'm fishing for some words of wisdom for people who wants to be okay. But at the same time, it is understandable that maybe, you know, suggesting that, oh, you're going to, you know, locate and identify all the landowners on the hike that you want to do.

Yeah.

And then contact them all and ask for permission.

Like, maybe a bit stretch, not too bad. I think joining a club is, is the key thing. And I mean, I know we've talked a little bit talk quite a lot about the negative aspects. I mean, it is still possible to hike in Connemara and, you know, it's as good a time as any to say a big thank you to all the farmers who still permit it and whose goodwill, you know, we still rely on. So, you know, it's not like the mountains are closed, but for sure, if the, if, if, if some of their concerns aren't addressed, it's going to be harder for them to, to, to demonstrate the same level of goodwill. But, but in terms of, if somebody wants to start hiking, the best thing to do is join a club. Because, because if it's a responsible club and if it's a mountain iron club, they generally are fairly responsible. You know, the chances are those access issues at least are identified. So you'll know if there's a certain path that really you shouldn't be on. The club will know that. And I mean, in the west of Ireland, the club I'm in is Galway City based, but there's a couple of clubs in Connemara where, you know, the members include farmers who own land. And you know, so it's not like it is not like it's a bunch of strangers showing up. And I know in Galway, a lot of the clubs, you know, the membership kind of changes between clubs. So you might have people who started in the Galway Walking Club and are now in the Ma' Am Turk Walking Club or in the, some of the other ones. And you know, they, the people there are, they're locals. So, so it's, it's always better to, I would say to, to join a club, particularly if you don't really. If you haven't been doing much hiking before. And it's probably no harm even to reach out to a club. So if you're, if you're based in Dublin, you think, you know, I'd like to do the bands, but, but is there any approach I should avoid or a place I shouldn't park? You know, you can ping somebody in Mountaineer in Ireland or our club or whoever, because most of the clubs have some sort of online presence and just ask, you know, what's a good. What's an okay place to. To. To start from or to. To. To. To park so that I'm not causing a problem. And, And I think even that would, would make a huge difference.

And you know, like, this is very important because I remember the conversation like some people don't like this approach and they don't like, even, you know, when I was saying, like, hey, why if you want to access the land, why don't you ask a farmer? And sometimes the answer is like, oh, because this is like a sort of a form of control and I just want to have access and don't want to ask anyone. But what you're saying, like, it is even like, don't. Not so much ask landowner, but ask people who were there before you. They can give you some useful information, maybe, maybe where to park or maybe what not to do. So I think this is very important that talking to people who are aware of what's going on, who are familiar with the area is always good. Even if you're not talking directly with a landowner, you're talking to someone who was there already and maybe they talk with a landowner. I want to talk. 1. Say one more thing for listeners here who are, you know, may find themselves hiking or walking on the. On the land, on the farm, and it turns out there's. It belongs to somebody and there's a farmer. Like what farmer told me. And when I was talking, obviously it was in the context of hunting and, you know, but also kind of like a, you know, fishing and just being on the land and enjoying the scenery. And he said, like, oh, well, you can go to the. To the other mountain and there's like my neighbor over there. But what he told me really stuck with me. And he said, like, when you see him, just go to him and talk with him. And I said, of course I will. And then he proceeded because what. What he don't like and what. Most farmers don't like that when they see somebody on the land and those people see them, they turn around and they walk, they run. And that's like, farmers apparently don't like that. And I understand that. So if you're out there and you see a farmer working a landowner, don't run from him. The opposite. Go in and say, like, hello, how are you? You know, introduce yourself, compliment his land. Like, do something. Don't be, you know, this implied of like, oh, I'm doing something wrong and just run. So this is just like my thing that I absolutely.

And I mean, you know, when we meet farmers, when we're out on group hikes, you know, we'll make a point of saying hello, thanking them and introducing ourselves. As, you know, we're the club from Galway. And I know part of that is subtly saying we're not some bunch of invaders from Dublin or wherever, but it's more just to say, you know, we. We're not that far away and, you know, we'd be responsible. And yeah, I think that makes a huge difference. I mean, common courtesy is you are on somebody's land and, you know, at the very least, you just go over and say hello and thanks. And is it okay? Because, you know, that farmer didn't set out that morning to have a confrontation with people. And, you know, the better that you can make the encounter, the probably the better it is for both people.

Yeah, exactly. And I, And I always, you know, like, again, from the pers. From the. From the perspective of, you know, even if you want to go on the land, you know, you're trying to fish there on the. In the. In a lake or hunt deer or whatever else. Obviously for hunting deer is a different story. You need to have a. You need to have a. Permission. But even like this simple thing like I'm. I'm an. I'm insured, right? I'm a member of a club. Here's an insurance. He's like some sort of a. And at some point that farmer might even like to have someone else who he knows who they are, like extra, you know, person who they know are out there and can, you know, I don't want to say like, you know, keep an eye on what's. What's happening, but at least they know what. What it is. John, we're gonna be wrapping this up before we do that. First of all, folks who watching this and listening, if you like the content like that, don't forget to subscribe to my newsletter. The link is in the description of the show and also all the relevant links from John also gonna be in the description of the show. So get in there and do your job. And before we wrap this up, John, how do you see this situation progressing or for that matter, regressing in the next 20 years? So seeing the changes from 20 years ago to now, how do you envisage this situation will develop 20 years from now?

Yeah, that's an interesting one. I think we're probably at a point in the road that now that that volume has increased, I mean, I think the state needs to have areas for people who don't want to climb in Connemara, but want to go somewhere. And you know, in. In. In the west of Ireland, we have. Well, there is a national park, Connemara national park, and Diamond Hill, which is a relatively straightforward hike, but it's hugely popular because. Because people will happily go to a place that is supervised and where the access is. Okay. And I think we probably need more of those. I think something will have to be done to support farmers that are in areas where you've got these fantastic mountain ranges. And there was a pilot scheme, or there is a pilot scheme which is extended to the McGillicuddy reeks. And there was talk of extending that to other areas. It's a kind of a collaborative approach between the landowners and the local council and some other stakeholders. And it was a recognition that a lot of people want to climb Carntuhel and the mountains around it. And how do we manage that so that, you know, everybody's land interests are also respected. And it seems to be working out reasonably well, as far as I can see. And I'd really hoped that. And there was talk in the last government of it being extended, but it didn't, it didn't happen. It's still, I think, my understanding is that it's still a pilot and there's just one scheme. And I think if a bit more energy could be and money could be applied to piloting that in a few other areas where there's just a lot of people now starting to visit, I think that would be useful. I remember a discussion about this about 20 years ago, and at the time, you know, the. I think the government position was we're not going to pay for access. You know, we're just not going to go there. And I think whatever you call it, I think the landowners who are bearing the brunt of this will need to be looked after and compensated. And in return that. That provides some, some access. But even that access will not be uncontrolled access. You know, as long as there's livestock on, on land, you know, there's going to have to be restrictions on dogs. And so access, there's, there's several levels to access. There's the access where people who don't really want to think about rules and regulations can go to a park where they can let their dog run free. And definitely we should have some of those. Every city should have some park where you can just let your doggo bananas and where you can go for a long walk without really impinging on anybody. And then for the more wilderness areas, there just need to be, I would say, you know, some sort of scheme similar to the one in Kerry and try and roll that out to other areas. Now, I'm assuming the one in Kerry is reasonably successful. You know, when you go down to the Reeks and climb Karen Thule it seems to be. It seems to be working. The paths are laid out. I don't think there's a land access issue. It seems to be well regulated. So if we had something similar in other areas, I think that would be super.

John, thank you so much. I hope listeners learned a lot from this. And yeah, folks, just be respectful towards the landowners because that's really courtesy and that's really thanks for them. John, thank you for your work. We're going to put all the links in the description, so hopefully you'll get few volunteers after this episode. Thank you so much.

Okay, thank you.