PJ: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly.

PJ: On this episode, I'm joined by PJ Smith of PJ's Guide Service in the Driftless.

PJ: PJ shares his fly fishing journey, what makes the Driftless a must fish,

PJ: and his tips for cracking the Driftless code. I think you're really going to enjoy this one.

PJ: But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items.

PJ: If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave

PJ: us a rating or review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out.

PJ: And we're excited to partner with our friends at Jesse Brown's to bring the

PJ: Chocolate Factory to Charlotte on May 4th.

PJ: Blaine will be teaching private tying classes, discussing predator and prey,

PJ: and sharing his favorite rod, reel, and line combos.

PJ: Check out the link in the show notes for more details.

PJ: Now, on to our interview.

Music: Well, PJ, welcome to the Articulate Fly.

Intro: Thank you very much for having me uh looking forward to talking all about fly

Intro: fishing and fishing here in the driftless so yeah thank you oh.

Music: You bet uh me too and you know i we have a tradition on the articulate fly we like to ask.

Intro: All of our guests to.

Music: Share their earliest fishing memory.

Intro: Earliest fishing memory um that one is probably uh fishing with my grandfather

Intro: father at our farm in Missouri at a, uh,

Intro: oh, we've got several farm ponds

Intro: there and catching largemouth bass and bluegill, uh, conventional gear.

Intro: And, uh, yeah, it was just, uh, one of those things, uh, you know,

Intro: I, I got to spend my summers at the farm with my grandparents and, uh, got to fish a lot.

Intro: And so, yeah, that's kind of the earliest that I can remember walking through the pasture.

Intro: I think I was probably about two or three years old.

Intro: And, yeah, just catching big bass on probably a Zepco.

Music: Yeah, one of those green Zepco 33s probably.

Intro: Yeah, more than likely that or I don't know.

Intro: We had several different Zepcos, but they were all pretty much in that same

Intro: line. uh the closed face uh spinning rails so yeah yeah i.

Music: I had to uh call no moss.

Intro: On the.

Music: Bait casters i can never quite get the hang of those.

Intro: Yeah as i

Intro: as i got older i actually got into them for a little

Intro: bit and uh yeah you can

Intro: well nowadays they're so like i

Intro: don't know they're almost engineered near where you can't backlash but back

Intro: in my day it was definitely one that you had to keep your thumb there and uh

Intro: throttle it down once you got casting in that but yeah it's uh things have come

Intro: a long long way that's for sure so yeah.

Music: So so pj when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing.

Intro: Oh, the dark side. I had just finished up with college and had started working

Intro: at the Morton Arboretum.

Intro: And at that time, I was pretty much fishing ultralights, all kinds of stuff like that.

Intro: And just really kind of was really intrigued by it. Had seen the movie River Runs Through It.

Intro: So probably right around 95, 96.

Intro: My mom had a friend that she worked with and he knew fly fishing and we tend

Intro: to I had a place that I could fish and then he knew enough about fly fishing to kind of get me started,

Intro: right at that same time I was dating my wife Donna and so we both fished we went out she kind

Intro: of fell in love with the casting and i just fell in love with

Intro: fly fishing and uh we just

Intro: really i don't know i went head first full throttle do not stop do not pass

Intro: go i just hammered down into fly fishing just loved it and uh got in with a

Intro: great shop uh at that time I'm Marcos Varga,

Intro: ran Flying Field in Glen Ellyn and met some great guys there that just kind of helped me out.

Intro: Time flies and all that, but Marcos was a huge factor, helped me out greatly,

Intro: hooked me up with gear that I could afford that was really good quality equipment.

Intro: I think the first one that I had was a five-weight Orvis Rocky Mountain.

Intro: That was the first one. I caught a lot of bass on it. I still have it.

Intro: It's a two-piece. It's old school.

Intro: So, yeah, that's kind of the start to it. And we just kind of kept going from there.

Music: Yeah, pretty neat. And so, you know, obviously it's been, you know,

Music: gosh, almost 30 years, you know, who are some other folks other than Marcos

Music: that have mentored you on your fly fishing journey? What have they taught you?

Intro: So, uh, another one that sticks out really well for me is Bill Harrell.

Intro: Uh, he was a guide up here in the drift list.

Intro: Um, you know, he really, I mean, that was kind of my first, uh, trip.

Intro: We kind of took a, uh, um, a trout school up here, uh, in the drift list.

Intro: And Bill Harrell was, uh, the teacher on that.

Intro: And it just I don't know

Intro: we just Don and I fell in love with this area um

Intro: he kind of taught us to just uh take it

Intro: all in not just focus on the fishing but take

Intro: it all in like um you know

Intro: you need to see what's coming off what

Intro: bugs and his approach was super simple

Intro: you just he's like you don't have to know what the name of the

Intro: fly is you just have to know that there's

Intro: flies coming off and they're about a size 10 or

Intro: 12 or 20 whatever and then

Intro: uh just look in your box and see if you got a fly

Intro: that kind of matches and um so that was a really good way to learn for me um

Intro: i'm kind of a visual learner um you know he also had a thing where uh uh he

Intro: could cast pretty well uh again up here in the driftless, you'd have to cast fairly well,

Intro: but he's like, it doesn't matter how it gets there. The fish don't care.

Intro: Once it's on the water, that's when they care. So just kind of worked it that way.

Intro: And then of course, Marcos at the shop is another guy that kind of mentored

Intro: me quite a bit, Steve Finnelli.

Intro: I hope i'm saying that name it's been a long time

Intro: but uh he was a shop guy there at uh

Intro: flying field and uh we always used to hang out and he was from montana just

Intro: would tell awesome stories so i always took it in and that oh probably another

Intro: real good mentor of mine has been uh vith uh he's He's a guide over in Minnesota.

Intro: And, oh, we've done many, many trips with Kip, having him guide us for Smallmouth and Muskie.

Intro: And so he's always been a great guy to just bounce ideas off.

Intro: And when I decided to become Orvis Endorsed, he was already endorsed and kind

Intro: of helped me get onto that track. So I'm pretty happy about having all those

Intro: guys in my corner and kind of cheering me on.

Intro: So I'm definitely helping out whenever I needed someone to at least listen to

Intro: me and bounce some ideas off of them.

Music: Yeah, very neat. And for folks that aren't familiar, you know,

Music: I know your home waters are located in the Driftless.

Music: You want to let folks kind of know a little bit more about the area and what

Music: makes it such a special place to chase trout? out.

Intro: So the Drupalist where we're at is basically southwest Wisconsin.

Intro: It's affectionately called the Drupalist. It does go into other states.

Intro: It goes into Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, and a little bit of Illinois.

Intro: So obviously it's split by the Mississippi River,

Intro: And what it is, is it's an area that the glaciers basically missed.

Intro: Every time that the glaciers would advance, this area was kind of like a big, giant rock in a stream.

Intro: The glaciers just kind of went around. I do know on the Minnesota and Iowa side,

Intro: there was either one or probably like one or two advancements that actually

Intro: kind of got into their side. a little bit.

Intro: But on the Wisconsin side, it's pretty much been untouched.

Intro: It's an area that steep valleys, erosion is kind of the biggest thing.

Intro: It kind of started off as a plateau

Intro: type area and then erosion has kind of caused it to be what it is today.

Intro: Um so down at the bottom of all these

Intro: valleys is usually uh spring fred small creeks um and they can be just a few

Intro: feet wide to 20 or 30 feet wide at the best um so they're pretty small intimate

Intro: creeks that hold mostly brown and brook trout.

Intro: The brookies are the natives here, and then obviously browns were brought in early on in that.

Intro: But the spring-fed water helps keep the water clean and cold.

Intro: There is a lot of natural reproducing trout, out, but they do some...

Intro: Uh stocking at times uh it's just uh numbers and then um you know sometimes

Intro: we've had some flood events that kind of change things up so um there is uh

Intro: stocking that does go on in that,

Intro: so yeah definitely very special uh there's areas around here that are like no other place on earth,

Intro: um you know you can really look into it as you get towards the mississippi um

Intro: you can definitely kind of see where it uh you know the tall bluffs and,

Intro: just the sheer rock cliffs that are uh that are there it's pretty spectacular,

Intro: and then all throughout this region you can just go up and down all the valleys

Intro: and uh get lost but you always seem to find your way out of them so definitely very fun very.

Music: Very neat and i would imagine too you know having relatively small low gradient

Music: streams that don't have a lot of structure in them probably makes for a pretty

Music: technical fishery right.

Intro: Oh yeah it is uh i like to say it's it's definitely the hardest easiest place

Intro: to catch trout um they uh they are spooky but yet there's so many of them uh

Intro: you know if you can get your fly into the water you can,

Intro: pretty much catch something um we just have the numbers uh per mile um i've

Intro: heard as much as you know,

Intro: 4,000 per mile, give or take,

Intro: uh, which is quite a bit, um,

Intro: on that same aspect we have uh with them

Intro: being so small um the edges

Intro: grow up uh that's why right now here

Intro: in the springtime now that the snow and.

Intro: Everything's kind of mushed all the uh the brush

Intro: and weeds and stuff down it's.

Intro: It's pretty easy to get around but at the same time that

Intro: makes it really tough because they can see you coming from

Intro: a long ways away um so yeah

Intro: so is the is the year goes on uh the

Intro: weeds and uh grass and all that

Intro: brush starts growing pretty heavy and uh

Intro: it just makes it tougher and tougher to get that cast

Intro: in there um and that's where accuracy

Intro: is a huge deal um being

Intro: able to just understand like uh like

Intro: a good roll cast bow and arrow cast um and

Intro: i call it like my little flip cast even uh

Intro: doing some downstream work just letting the

Intro: fly kind of um trickle down and that

Intro: is is definitely helpful um there

Intro: are some open areas uh some of the some of

Intro: the landowners are actually doing a little bit of mowing and that

Intro: so uh you know there is

Intro: there is some stuff that uh as a beginner you can

Intro: get into uh i've been you

Intro: know obviously fishing up here for so long you start learning all those areas

Intro: and and that so uh we can go from fairly easy uh easy to get into not a lot

Intro: of brush not a lot of trees to uh super technical if you want to get into that

Intro: so there there's a lot of variety.

Intro: For sure but it is uh it makes

Intro: for fun fishing um and it'll just make you a better better fisher person all

Intro: the way around because it uh once you can fish here and catch fish you can go

Intro: anywhere and be able to cast and be accurate so it's definitely a helpful thing too yeah.

Music: And so you know in terms of i understand you know the the challenge the casting

Music: challenges you know when you've got tall brush and.

Intro: You can't.

Music: Really have a back cast, but, you know, what about some sort of on the water

Music: strategies, you know, once you've got your fly in the water where you're,

Music: I imagine you're fishing to really clear water.

Music: Um, probably a lot of it's probably pretty shallow and it's also probably relatively smooth.

Music: You know, what are some suggestions for folks to be a little bit more effective in those situations?

Intro: So once you, uh, once you get that fly in

Intro: the the water um you know

Intro: everybody's heard of a dead drift um and

Intro: that but we actually will find uh if we do our dry fly fishing actually adding

Intro: a little uh oh we call it the i call it the dry fly shake um you kind of get

Intro: that fly to kind of move a little bit um live bugs move so um.

Intro: You know, you need to put a little action into them. So I don't mind skating

Intro: a little bit on some of my flies.

Intro: They'll take it on the swing, which is pretty cool. If you're doing like nymphing

Intro: at that, just trying to like get those flies in without a huge splash.

Intro: Again, it's pretty hard with the heavier tungsten and that.

Intro: Um so i i try

Intro: to limit um trying to

Intro: do a huge splash sometimes just adding a little extra tippet to make that presentation

Intro: a little softer um i do kind of i fall into the keep it really simple so all

Intro: of my leaders start off at seven and a half foot either a three or a

Intro: 4X and then I just add on tippet as I need it.

Intro: That way I kind of know exactly how long my leaders are most of the time,

Intro: unless I've had to cut them apart and make them super long and that.

Intro: But most of the time you can get away with something like that.

Intro: On a real open stream where the fish are being a little more finicky,

Intro: adding a little more tippet is definitely helpful it doesn't have to be smaller

Intro: but it just gives that a little easier presentation and then um i try to uh

Intro: i'll use a more of a dry fly as opposed to an indicator.

Intro: Um especially the harder indicators like um the ones that are like uh made of

Intro: plastic and that they work good but they're just they're a little bit too much

Intro: on these small creeks so i go with a.

Intro: Um oh like a larger almost

Intro: like a hopper a rubber leg stimulator uh we

Intro: have a fly around here called the hippie stomp it's actually

Intro: from out west uh highly effective around

Intro: here and the nice thing about

Intro: that is is like now you've actually put two hooks on

Intro: the water so your chances of hooking a fish are

Intro: uh are doubled now so uh it

Intro: makes it pretty easy um those foam indicator

Intro: style flies are uh really buoyant

Intro: so they stay up pretty good so yeah so it's again

Intro: i try to keep it pretty simple there's a lot of

Intro: good techniques like anytime we

Intro: get a a rain around here uh we

Intro: usually will try to switch over to streamers as well

Intro: um because once that water stains up boy

Intro: they'll they'll actively go after streamers and stuff

Intro: so it's kind of um there's

Intro: a lot here you can learn a lot of different techniques a

Intro: lot of euro guys around here uh and that

Intro: and that's always something that we kind of dabble in

Intro: a little bit it's something that is kind of on our to-do list

Intro: around here as well uh learning that a little bit more but um yeah so it it's

Intro: one of those that you can kind of run the gamut if you're a dry fly guy you

Intro: can do really well nymph streamers so yeah Yeah.

Music: What's not to like is they like to say, and, you know, PJ, when did you get the guide bug?

Intro: Oh, the guide bug was probably not too long after I started fishing up here.

Intro: I think I'm right now I'm in my 14th season, give or take.

Intro: I'd have to look back and see if I can find my original guide license that I had.

Intro: But yeah, I just we were coming up here so often.

Intro: Uh you know we we would come

Intro: up here throughout the summer and fish and every

Intro: once in a while i'd run into bill and uh

Intro: i you know i'd always talk about

Intro: it like oh it'd be kind of cool to be a guide and all that

Intro: and finally one day he kind of just told me

Intro: he's like you know either do it or don't do

Intro: it but he goes you just just shut up about it like

Intro: he goes i don't care what you do but you've worked

Intro: here you've done enough fishing in here um he

Intro: goes just just do it so that was oh i

Intro: think i had been fishing up here for almost 15 years

Intro: uh so uh yeah that's what that was a push that i needed i'd always kind of helped

Intro: friends when we were fishing together um so i I guess I was kind of guiding

Intro: them without actually guiding them, you know, a friend trip.

Intro: I always wanted to make sure that they caught fish and whether that was fishing

Intro: for bass or panfish or trout,

Intro: you know, I'd go on some of our trips with the club that we belong to in Illinois, Drift.

Intro: And then I'd always just kind of help out the new guys that weren't totally

Intro: sure how to do some stuff.

Intro: So yeah, that kind of got me started into it and then I got my guide license

Intro: for Wisconsin and yeah, just kind of,

Intro: Went from there, was working a full-time job and pretty much driving up a lot

Intro: of weekends and doing the guide thing.

Music: Yeah. And so did you always just guide for yourself or did you kind of start

Music: guiding through shops in the area?

Intro: No, I've always just been an independent.

Intro: At that time, I just didn't feel confident enough to go into a shop and that.

Intro: Probably should have at times, but again, hindsight's always 20-20.

Intro: And as far as things go now, I'm happy that I could do what I can do.

Intro: I did it all on my own, but with a lot of help from friends and family and that.

Intro: So I just stayed independent.

Intro: 2018, I left my full-time job and went full-time into the guiding world.

Intro: Uh at that same time i uh i

Intro: decided i uh went out to

Intro: an orvis guide rendezvous really liked

Intro: their program and decided to uh become orvis

Intro: endorsed so i guess that's kind of the thing there and my wife at the time was

Intro: actually working for orvis in uh madison at their store so uh yeah so she she's

Intro: kind of been on the the shop side of it i've been uh

Intro: just the guide and the guy that ties the knots and rows the boat.

Intro: So, um, yeah, I just, uh, you know, that's what I like doing.

Intro: I, you know, that, yeah, just guiding and helping people, uh,

Intro: get into some fish and all that and hoping they have a fun day.

Music: So, you know, it's interesting. We're, I think, uh, we're of a similar vintage.

Music: Tell me a little bit more about how you made the decision to kind of quit the

Music: safe full-time thing and become a full-time fishing guide.

Intro: Yeah that one is a good one yeah

Intro: i uh i graduated college um and

Intro: graduated college on a saturday drove

Intro: home sunday started work monday at the morton arboretum and uh 26 years later

Intro: uh the day before i turned 50 i left there and became a full-time guide um yeah i mean i had done a

Intro: full-time job in the Chicagoland area.

Intro: And I don't know, you just get to a point where you just need to make a change and you're.

Intro: Yeah, I mean, I was, yeah, I just had that drawing to just become a guide.

Intro: That's what I wanted to do.

Intro: I figured if I didn't do it by the time I was 50, I wouldn't ever do it.

Intro: And then I'd have that regret.

Intro: So, yeah, it was a tough one.

Intro: Stepping off that cliff was very tough.

Intro: You know, I mean, we were smart enough to know that it wasn't going to be easy.

Intro: You know, I had been guiding for many years part-time in that.

Intro: And then all of a sudden, now I'm going to hopefully try to make a living out of it.

Intro: But we had planned, we had savings, and we actually had a house up here in the Duraflis.

Intro: So it kind of made things easy to transition.

Intro: And that, so yeah, just kind of made that jump and hoped for the best.

Intro: And I held on to a few things.

Intro: I kept my CDL license just in case I needed to go back and be a truck driver,

Intro: a heavy equipment operator.

Intro: But yeah, I've never looked back. I've been happy after that.

Intro: Wake up every day and feel kind of blessed to be here.

Intro: Luckily with my wife being in the industry and being understanding,

Intro: she was right there with me and said, yeah, let's do it.

Intro: So, um, but it was tough.

Intro: Uh, there's no doubt about it. There's days that I, I just hope that,

Intro: uh, someone calls and books a trip.

Music: So is that kind of the biggest challenge is just kind of keeping your plate

Music: full or are there other things that have kind of surprised you kind of making

Music: that transition from a kind of a safer gig to, you know, working for yourself?

Intro: Um, yeah, I would definitely say just keeping busy, uh, you know, COVID didn't help.

Intro: It, it helped, but it didn't help, uh, at the same time, uh,

Intro: got a lot of people outside.

Intro: Uh, so there are a lot of people that needed, uh, help in getting into fly fishing, uh, on that same thing.

Intro: It, uh, it didn't help because we were shut down the entire time that COVID was,

Intro: happening in that so uh so that

Intro: was a little tough um right now we're just

Intro: we're kind of really ramping back up we're doing

Intro: a lot of shows doing uh programs at

Intro: shop wherever we can go into uh uh like tu meetings and other uh clubs we're

Intro: trying to do meetings and um i've got several uh PowerPoint programs that I

Intro: give throughout kind of this upper Midwest area.

Intro: So, yeah, so I kind of focus on that. That's how word of mouth kind of helps too.

Intro: And then obviously being Orvis endorsed now is really big for us because that

Intro: really has kind of pushed it a little bit more. but we're always,

Intro: always looking to fill some more, more dates.

Intro: Um, you know, there's, there's obviously, um.

Intro: You know, the off season, we're looking at trying to fill some of those that

Intro: time with some other stuff that we're looking into.

Music: Yeah. And so, you know, it's interesting because, I mean, can you talk a little

Music: bit more about kind of the process of becoming Orvis Endorsed?

Music: I know, you know, it's kind of a little bit of a mystery, right?

Music: And then there's a lot of lore around it.

Music: But can you kind of tell us a little bit about the process and kind of why you

Music: thought having that credential was so important?

Intro: Um a lot of it had to do with uh kip

Intro: v he uh oh i

Intro: i kind of was talking to him about it and uh we ended up going to an ogr out

Intro: in asheville um and just you know their their whole program the fact that they

Intro: uh were letting at that time they were uh anybody that was kind of on a pro

Intro: -staff, like a guide could come out and go to their stuff.

Intro: And it just kind of made it nice and an easy transition.

Intro: You know, they were pretty open and pretty forthcoming with all their information.

Intro: You know, they talked about how they were revamping some of their program and

Intro: they were going to kind of start putting guides first again.

Intro: You know, if you needed help with some stuff, they would help you get that.

Intro: You know, if you needed rods repaired and stuff like that, although now it's

Intro: a little different, you know, it's easier to get parts and stuff now.

Intro: So I just I and I enjoyed that part of it.

Intro: Again, when I got back from that, that trip, I talked a little bit more with

Intro: Kip and then I reached out to Orvis. And we basically set up a.

Intro: A time to meet. So they, they actually kind of vetted me.

Intro: Uh, I know there was other people that I'm sure were called and asked if I was, uh, legit.

Intro: And, um, so yeah, it kind of, that kind of started it.

Intro: And then I ended up having to basically do a trip, uh, with Pete Kutzer from

Intro: Morris and, um, yeah, so it, it was kind of weird cause it was actually a musky trip.

Intro: Um by the time he could get out

Intro: uh it was

Intro: muskie time uh trout fishing had already closed

Intro: so we did a muskie trip and ironically that

Intro: day the whole week before it was super nice weather and all that and then he

Intro: comes out and the weather is absolutely terrible uh it rained so much there's

Intro: probably eight inches of water in the bottom of my boat um so that made it fun

Intro: uh but we moved some fish And, uh, yeah,

Intro: it just, that's, uh.

Intro: You know, it was fun and they realized that, uh, I was really just wanting to,

Intro: uh, make trips, uh, an adventure and, uh, take care of clients.

Intro: And, uh, I wasn't just some guy looking to just get into it all about the money or, or whatever.

Intro: It's like, I, I want people to enjoy their trip. It's they're paying me to basically

Intro: go on a vacation and that.

Intro: So, so, yeah. So I was approved and I think my approval went through sometime in 2019 or early 2020.

Intro: And so I became an enormous endorsed guide by then.

Music: Yeah. So it's just in time for COVID, right?

Intro: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, not exciting, but, you know, that time was a little

Intro: rough because I was like, wow, did I make a mistake?

Intro: But we got through it. You know, it's stuff that I can't control.

Intro: So I try to, you know, not focus on that and just focus on what I can control.

Intro: It's kind of like the weather. I can't control the weather.

Intro: I can't, you know, control stuff like that. So, I try to not dwell on that.

Intro: It's hard not to, but that's what I try to at least strive for.

Music: Yeah. And I guess, so, you know, they vet you and then, you know,

Music: you're kind of put on the website.

Music: And I know they have great support services because I've talked to other Orvis Endorse guides.

Music: And it's like, if you break a rod, they're literally FedExing rides out to you.

Music: And then I guess, right, there's an annual membership fee to kind of stay in

Music: the program. Is that generally how it works?

Intro: Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Intro: Yep. Yeah. And they, they do still make sure like they, they come out,

Intro: um, or, you know, with COVID and that that's kind of changed some stuff up, but, um,

Intro: you know, I, I talked to Pete Kutzer and, and that, uh, I wouldn't say frequently,

Intro: but I talked to him pretty much, uh, yearly, if not more.

Intro: Um, so we're just making sure things are on the right track.

Intro: Um, you know, obviously Obviously, if there's any problems with clients and

Intro: they call Orvis, you know, and it becomes a problem and they obviously talk

Intro: to you, but not any of that,

Intro: you know, we don't have problems with clients.

Intro: They, uh, I, again, I try to work with them and do the best that I can, uh, for everybody.

Intro: So, um, so yeah, if you, uh, if you strive to reach their goals,

Intro: uh, you don't have problems. So, yeah.

Music: And which, which is a great segue into my next question, PJ is what do you think

Music: is the secret to being a good guide?

Intro: Well, you know, everybody will be like, oh, you got to catch a ton of fish and

Intro: all that. And I can tell you right now, you know, I do catch a lot of fish at times.

Intro: But to be honest, to be a good guide, you have to be able to listen and kind

Intro: of read people, understand them, understand what they're not saying to you,

Intro: along with what they are saying to you.

Intro: I've seen a lot of guys out there and they're like, oh, I, you know,

Intro: 100 fish days and all that. And to be honest with you, when things are good,

Intro: yeah, you can get a hundred fish day.

Intro: It's not an impossibility, but it's the days that you don't catch any fish.

Intro: That's when a true guide is going to shine.

Intro: You know, most of the time, like I said, when it's easy, it's easy.

Intro: When it's hard, that's when you'll find out who a real good guide is.

Intro: Um, so I really try to strive for just, um, being the best I can be,

Intro: uh, giving 110% of myself, uh,

Intro: Uh, yeah, I mean, I just, you know, I want them to be happy.

Intro: I want them to go home and feel like they had a good time.

Intro: Um, yeah, I do try to get them fish.

Intro: Uh, but some of it's not all about that. A lot of my clients,

Intro: they want to learn something.

Intro: So I try to teach them like, you know, we talk about the drift list or we talk

Intro: about like casting or we talk about different whys and stuff like that.

Intro: So it's not always about that.

Intro: You just, you know, you try to help them kind of on their journey as well.

Intro: They, you know, they've trusted you to take them out.

Intro: So, yeah, so I try to teach and, you know, if anything goes wrong,

Intro: I try to be there to help solve their problem.

Intro: Them um so yeah so i just

Intro: uh um yeah listen to their needs and uh that's kind of hard for some people

Intro: because they they don't always like i'm a really i'm a good listener and i can

Intro: i can sense when something's not going right even if they don't see anything you can just,

Intro: I can just tell when something's not right and then I'll just kind of keep prying until I get it.

Intro: And sometimes we just sit back a little bit, talk a little bit,

Intro: you know, because sometimes it's not always about just the fishing part of it.

Intro: I mean, I get a lot of people that have told me a lot more than I I wanted to know.

Intro: You know, it's like, you know, people have outside lives. And,

Intro: um, sometimes when you're fishing, it, it comes out quite a bit.

Music: So yeah, it's like being a bartender on the water without a beer, right?

Intro: Exactly. I'm a really cheap therapist. That's for sure. Yeah.

Music: And so, you know, what do you think PJ is the biggest misconception that people

Music: have about the life of a fishing guide?

Intro: Oh, well, you know, if you look at Instagram, it's, it's all perfect.

Intro: I think every day is a bluebird day and you catch tons of fish and you get free

Intro: deals and everybody gives you a fly rod.

Intro: And it's just super easy. And that is probably the biggest thing that is so untrue.

Intro: There's a lot of days where, you know, like, well, I've got a trip tomorrow.

Intro: And I've been working on this trip for the last two or three days now.

Intro: So I I've scouted water, checked everything out, got my boat already, um, checked all my rods.

Intro: So it it's, you know, it's not just the day that you're on the water.

Intro: It's it's the days beforehand.

Intro: I planned out a meal prep and all that.

Intro: Um, you know, just making sure everything's ready, uh, going through flies.

Intro: Um, so yeah, so it, it's, it's a lot more.

Intro: And then on top of it, when, uh, you're not getting those calls or you got days

Intro: off and, um, you know, you're, I'm, I'm going to the laundromat doing laundry and stuff like that.

Intro: So it's, it's not all glamorous. risks there's a

Intro: lot of uh can be downtime um and

Intro: then you know the seasonal depression is

Intro: kind of a weird one too uh during the winter

Intro: when we're not fishing as much um that

Intro: can kind of get to you know you get the gray days and

Intro: you're just like oh my gosh and uh some days

Intro: you're like i'm just gonna sleep in and other days

Intro: you're like okay i need to get out of bed and get some work done so

Intro: um but yeah it's not always uh

Intro: what you see uh instagram's showing

Intro: you just probably the smallest and just the best

Intro: parts um you know it's tough i mean you know from paying all your insurance

Intro: and guide fees and uh making sure that you're legal and all that it's it all adds up um So, again,

Intro: it's not just calling yourself a guide. It's really working hard at it.

Music: Yeah, it's funny you say that. I was talking to somebody earlier today and,

Music: you know, I was trying to explain to them they don't really fly fish,

Music: but we're kind of talking about the guide game and, you know,

Music: that whole disconnect where, like, you know, the client is there to have fun,

Music: but you're working, right?

Intro: Yes.

Music: And so that's a huge thing. And, you know, what they don't understand is,

Music: you know, if you meet them at 730, you probably got up at 530 to get the boat ready to do lunches.

Music: And then at the end of the day, you've got to go home and clean the boat out,

Music: you know, maybe wash it and get ready for the next day.

Music: And so, you know, a 10 or 12 day on the water is really a 16 hour day without doing anything.

Music: And, you know, it's funny because I talked to my buddies that got out West and

Music: it's like, you know, they got 13, 14 days in a row and they're so excited to

Music: get a laundry day. It's crazy.

Intro: Yeah exactly yeah i mean

Intro: uh it is uh yeah it's it's it's a tough life it's it's fun there is definitely

Intro: days where you're just like yeah this is exactly why i guide all the time and

Intro: i've you know i you try to have more of those days than days you're like oh

Intro: my gosh why did i decide to

Intro: do this for a living um but i mean and i i'm definitely not at that point i've

Intro: been doing this for a long time and every day i'm just happy to be out on the

Intro: water and that but it's uh.

Intro: Yeah. I mean, I have to do laundry and, uh, you know, we have some lodging at

Intro: our house and, and stuff.

Intro: And, uh, so yeah, I'm like making beds, all the glamorous stuff,

Intro: you know, going to the grocery and getting groceries for the next week and making

Intro: sure I've got everybody's, uh, uh, dietary needs taken care of,

Intro: uh, you know, so, and then making lunches that, uh, we're all going to be happy with.

Intro: I try to simplify it as best I can, but then sometimes I try to change it up

Intro: and maybe a little more gourmet.

Intro: If I got somebody that's like got a birthday or something special is going on,

Intro: or, um, you know, I, I've had some clients that have, uh, uh,

Intro: needs that, uh, you know, like celiac.

Intro: So I got to make sure everything's cleaned out. And, uh, so they,

Intro: you know, so they have a good day cause I don't want them to get sick or anything like that.

Intro: So, um, yeah, so it, it's a lot of, uh, planning.

Intro: Uh, I take a lot of notes, uh, with all my clients, so I know what's going on

Intro: and, and that, so I just, uh, yeah, I mean, it's long days.

Intro: I do try to, I'm definitely not doing the, uh, hours like I used to do when

Intro: I was a heavy equipment operator.

Intro: Some of those days were, almost 24 hours

Intro: straight but uh um yeah there's

Intro: days i get in late and then you know if you're hosting some

Intro: people now you're also spending more time with them afterwards and that and

Intro: i you know once you get done with that now you've got to come home and get ready

Intro: for the next day so uh we try to

Intro: be uh take care of ourselves though too because uh you don't want to get,

Intro: too over the top uh so that you have a meltdown in that so yeah.

Music: That's that's no good and you know the other thing too right is we talked about

Music: it a little bit you also guide for smallmouth and muskie right.

Intro: Yeah i i will run my boat for uh smallies pike and muskie um so i run a stealth

Intro: craft uh drift boat and then i just added a stealth craft raft uh so i'm one of their ambassadors,

Intro: and that's really broadened my...

Intro: Um repertoire for for guiding for fish um

Intro: you know the the driftless is awesome and

Intro: and all that but we're starting to see uh summers

Intro: where the temps are just getting way too hot for

Intro: the trout so we uh you know

Intro: years ago i was like you know i if i want

Intro: to be a more rounded guide i need to add this uh

Intro: aspect to fishing and and

Intro: it's kind of cool i've even uh i even do a little bit

Intro: of trout stuff early season i'll run

Intro: my boat uh for trout here in

Intro: the drift lists and one of the few spots you can get them

Intro: but uh yeah i mean smallies pike and musky that they're super fun uh adds a

Intro: whole new game to it uh the rods are much bigger you can uh you know the cool

Intro: part Part is you're in a boat and you can see some pretty cool water and all of those fish are, boy,

Intro: they love to eat and they put a good bend in your rod. So it's fun.

Music: And so are you chasing those guys kind of in the middle of the summer when it's

Music: kind of too hot for trout?

Music: So it's kind of trout early and trout late and then smallmouth,

Music: pike and muskie in the middle and maybe some muskie kind of at the end of the season?

Intro: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. When it starts getting too warm here,

Intro: it's an ideal time to switch over to smallmouths.

Intro: I kind of tell people I'm and like this year, especially we were even though we just got some water.

Intro: You know, I've got to make sure that the trout survive. So I will forego doing

Intro: trips here in the Driftless, even though I could probably find water that's cold enough.

Intro: But, um, so yeah, we'll definitely go after them, uh, during the hot months.

Intro: Um, I do a little bit of musky stuff after I'm done with my trout.

Intro: Like October 15th is the last day for trout in Wisconsin here.

Intro: And then I'll switch over and we start chasing, uh, musky for a little bit.

Intro: Uh, I usually go until about October, maybe a little bit into November.

Intro: And then I usually just kind of take a break.

Intro: I like to deer hunt in Missouri, so head to my grandparents' farm for that.

Intro: So I just kind of wrap it up. Usually by then things are getting cold,

Intro: and it's nice to take a break.

Intro: I'm usually pretty fried from guiding the whole season and that,

Intro: so it's good to take a break and rest.

Intro: You know, head and just kind of do my own thing, sit in the,

Intro: sit in the deer woods for a while and, and do that. So kind of a nice break.

Music: Yeah, absolutely. I wait for some guys to come eat some acorns, right?

Intro: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and they're pretty good eating too.

Intro: So don't mind filling the freezer with them.

Music: Yeah. And so, so PJ, what is a day on the water like like with you you want

Music: to kind of give folks an idea of like you know what what it looks like to get

Music: on a boat or to wade with you for a day.

Intro: Sure um so my

Intro: uh walk and wade stuff uh you know we'll just meet usually in the morning uh

Intro: depending on you know i may meet you in town or uh you know if you're staying

Intro: here at our place we get going we try to we may have breakfast i always try

Intro: to start with a good breakfast,

Intro: whether I've got to grab it at a gas station or something, but I always need

Intro: a little breakfast to get going.

Intro: So we'll either go to breakfast or make sure everybody's got breakfast. It's a good way to start.

Intro: And then we'll talk over what's going on.

Intro: And then we'll get out to the water fairly quick.

Intro: Again, depends on the conditions. If it's a warm one, we try to start pretty

Intro: early in the early, early season.

Intro: If it's really cold, I have no problem waiting a while until it gets a little

Intro: bit warmer out at 9.30, 10 o'clock time.

Intro: But during the late spring into summer part, we're probably getting going by

Intro: 7. And trying to get out to the water, I'll get everybody geared up.

Intro: I usually try to run down and check water temps real quick just to make sure

Intro: that the streams haven't warmed up too much.

Intro: Uh, and then, uh, once everybody's kind of geared up, we just, uh, get started.

Intro: We're, you know, we're rigging rods, uh, you know, starting in an area.

Intro: And especially if you're someone that I don't know, we'll go to a spot that's

Intro: maybe a little more open.

Intro: Um, cause you know, some people, uh, like to exaggerate how good a caster they are.

Intro: Um so yeah in about five minutes i can tell if

Intro: you're a good caster not a good caster need a little work and

Intro: need to get a little warmed up putting that but

Intro: uh yeah we'll be hitting some water with that's got

Intro: fish in it i kind of vary it up there's obviously

Intro: a lot of water here on the wisconsin side uh so we'll we'll hit different areas

Intro: uh then we usually break for lunch and then head back to the truck and we'll

Intro: either move or we'll just tailgate and have lunch on the back of the truck.

Intro: Or I've got a couple of spots that I can picnic and stuff like that.

Intro: So we'll have a lunch.

Intro: Again, I usually switch spots. It's kind of nice to vary it up.

Intro: And then we'll get back on the water after lunch and basically chase trout some more.

Intro: Um you know and we'll try to

Intro: fish for about eight hours give or take um you know if i start seeing bugs coming

Intro: off or we're getting to that uh you know almost like dark 30 time uh you know

Intro: we may stay out a little bit longer um some guys ask for kind of doing some

Intro: uh almost like night fishing,

Intro: and we can bury that up too usually at lunchtime we'll uh head back in and then

Intro: like kind of take a little siesta.

Intro: Uh recharge a little bit and then head out later in

Intro: the evening so there there's a lot of variable that we can

Intro: do with uh with my

Intro: kind of fishing uh obviously if we're in a boat we're doing it a little different

Intro: we're getting in the boat we're going down and having lunch on the river and

Intro: then you know so it's an a to b uh type trip um so yeah so once we're done we

Intro: just kind of wrap things up,

Intro: you know if someone's asking about flies we go over flies and stuff like that,

Intro: and then depending on what their schedule is we may go out to dinner,

Intro: you know maybe a cocktail on

Intro: the back of the truck or whatever or just had

Intro: our separate ways however people want it their day and often you know that's

Intro: that's kind of how it is it And hopefully everybody walks away happy and feel

Intro: they got fulfilled and doing some fishing with me.

Music: Pretty neat. And I know you mentioned this earlier. You and your wife are teaching

Music: some classes and workshops. You want to let folks know kind of what you have coming up?

Intro: Sure. We are, again, the way we learned was doing a trout school.

Intro: That's kind of how I met Bill Harrell.

Intro: And now that we do guiding and stuff, we figured we wanted to kind of help give

Intro: back and offer these classes as well.

Intro: And my wife is a certified casting instructor, so we do some trout schools.

Intro: We got a couple of basically beginner schools.

Intro: We're doing two of them. uh may

Intro: 4th and 5th is going to be a beginner class

Intro: um and it's co-ed uh we've got i believe we have two two filled and we still

Intro: have room for a couple more people and then may 18th and 19th my wife is doing

Intro: a women's beginner school for uh trout fishing um,

Intro: So, yeah, and then our program, we have lodging here, and then we also do breakfast and lunch for people.

Intro: So it's kind of all-inclusive. Dinner is usually out on the town.

Intro: That way we can help spread the wealth, and it helps show you what's around

Intro: town and all the fun little restaurants that are around the Driftless here.

Intro: And then we're hoping to do a smallmouth trip in July, get a couple of boats together and do that.

Intro: That's going to be July 12th to the 15th.

Intro: That one's still a little bit of a work in progress thing.

Intro: And then in August, August is kind of a fun time here in the Driftless.

Intro: We're going to do a hopper dropper mousing weekend. weekend

Intro: uh and that's august 16th and

Intro: 18th uh we hope people can

Intro: get here early on friday so we head out friday evening uh try to get into a

Intro: spot that's fairly easy to wade um it's close to the house and that and then

Intro: uh so we'll do some mousing then,

Intro: And then fish until it's pretty dark, until everybody's done,

Intro: usually around 10 o'clock in the evening, kind of wrap it up, head back to the house.

Intro: Get up early in the morning, do some hopper fishing, have lunch back at the

Intro: house and just kind of chill for most of the day.

Intro: And then we'll head out again in the evening after dinner and do some more mousing.

Intro: So we go over like the hoppers in the morning and that and then the mousing

Intro: in the evening. and then we finish up on Sunday, getting up and doing the hopper dropper game again.

Intro: So just some trips that we offer here, and they're all kind of fun, kind of different.

Intro: Again, the Smalley trip, again, we're trying to work with a couple other guides

Intro: that we know to help out with that.

Intro: That so it's uh hopefully gonna be that's one that we're kind of adding and

Intro: hoping that will uh will go over pretty well but the trout schools we've been

Intro: doing them for quite a while and they always uh it's always kind of fun so pretty.

Music: Cool and i imagine if i remember correctly all those classes are on your website right.

Intro: Yeah there's uh if you go to my website uh it's a pj guide or pjguideservice.com, you can look on there,

Intro: and it's kind of got a rundown of all those classes and it's a way to connect with me too.

Intro: You can, my phone number's there.

Intro: You can call or text and then obviously email me. So, yeah.

Music: And I'll drop a link to that in the show notes. And PJ, is there anything else

Music: you want to share with our listeners before i'll let you go tonight.

Intro: Um i don't

Intro: know i mean fly fishing has just been super fun um i just encourage anybody

Intro: that is into it just thinking about getting into it got into it over covid um

Intro: if you're looking for a fun challenging time uh come fish with us here and the Driftless.

Intro: But stick with it. It's definitely a sport that can...

Intro: Just kind of change you. It's a great way to kind of just forget all your problems for a little bit.

Intro: I definitely see that in myself, you know, when I need to get out there and

Intro: kind of, you know, take a minute and breathe. It's always fun to get out.

Intro: So, yeah, I mean, and fly fishing is definitely one of those sports that everybody is super helpful.

Intro: Helpful um we may not

Intro: always give you all our hot spots and that but we will

Intro: definitely uh try to help you with your casting

Intro: and everything so i mean that's that's the beauty of fly fishing it's just it's

Intro: been an awesome journey and we just feel so privileged to be able to help and

Intro: offer this and then also with my wife and i living here in the driftless is

Intro: just it's kind of a dream come true.

Intro: And we certainly didn't expect to be here when we first started dating.

Intro: It was not one of those things. But once we got married, boy,

Intro: we were into fly fishing then.

Intro: So yeah, I just hope everybody can have a chance to come here to the Driftless.

Music: Very, very neat. And I think I've got your website and I'll drop your phone

Music: number in the show notes you want to let folks know i would imagine you're probably

Music: an instagram guy you want to share your instagram handle before i let you go.

Intro: Tonight yeah so instagram is pj guides um,

Intro: on instagram there's there's yeah i think my logo is on there uh and that so

Intro: it's uh kind of a brook trout coming out of a uh a small stream in a pasture and that so,

Intro: So look us up. I try to post when I can.

Intro: So it's not all grip and grins on there either.

Intro: It's just, you know, some scenery and there's some cool pictures of trout now and again.

Intro: And some small mouth pictures and then kind of just life here in the driftless.

Intro: Yeah.

Music: Yeah. Well, very cool. Well, listen, PJ, I really appreciate you spending some

Music: time with me this evening.

Intro: Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Intro: And yeah, I'm looking forward to talking some more with you at some point in time.

Intro: And, you know, if you need fishing reports, just let me know.

Music: Yeah, absolutely. And maybe our paths will cross on the water sometime soon.

Intro: Absolutely. Sounds great.

Music: Take care.

Intro: All righty.

PJ: Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.

PJ: Don't forget to check out the show notes for more details on the Chocolate Factory

PJ: coming to Charlotte on May 4th. Tight lines, everybody.