What's your recommendation for leaders who want to stay curious.

Fall in love with new ideas, don't be afraid to be a beginner again.

About four years ago, I started training jiu jitsu and you know, going in at my age and just getting my butt whipped on the mat, choked out, tapped out time after time after time, but what an amazing growth experience for me.

Hey there, this is Ben.

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Welcome back to Lead the Team with number one best selling author and in demand corporate trainer Ben Fant.

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Here's Ben.

Hello everybody.

Welcome back to Lead the team.

We've got a great one for you today with Jim Weaver.

He's a chief operating officer over at the Onan Group.

As the company grew from 10 million in 2001 to a projected $800 million this year, Jim's role has evolved and the scope of responsibility has grown exponentially over the last past two decades.

They have over ten plus office staffing groups.

Listed as one of the staffing industry analyst, fastest growing and largest staffing firms since 2001, the company has achieved an average annual top line organic growth rate of 25%.

And I'm smiling because I love to see that.

While increasing gross and net profits and remaining debt free.

Now, a strong corporate culture is the key to owning sustained growth and we're going to dig into that today.

But I'll tell you what, they've been recognized for it.

The best staffing firm to work for in 2021 by staffing industry analyst and they've been featured in the Birmingham and Nashville business journals as a perennial best place to work.

I'll tell you what, just so awesome.

But one of the cool things too that we're going to dig in today is Jim's other career as a professional rock and roll drummer with a music degree from Berkeley.

Hallelujah.

Welcome to the show, Jim.

Hey, thank you, man.

It's good to be here, man.

If you want to start pounding on the skins right now, now's the time.

Little drum roll as we get in here.

So we're gonna this Is gonna be a lot of fun.

I can't wait to dig in.

But let's start this out.

So you lived in a van for three years?

Yeah, yeah, I.

I always say that I have a little different management perspective.

Having lived out of a van for three years, I.

How can you.

Yeah, yeah, it definitely shapes you a little bit.

I went to school.

I went to college at the University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire.

My first go around, and I was a business major, and I really wanted to play music.

Got a summer job with the Circus in upstate New York, playing drums in a circus.

And then met a rock and roll band up there in upstate New York.

And we had some.

A little bit of label interest, got some opening dates that summer.

And at the age of 20, my parents came out to visit, I remember, and I told them, yeah, I'm not going back to school.

I'm going on the road.

And they were.

They were thrilled about that, I'll tell you.

Go on the road to make some real money, right?

So, yeah, we were up and down the eastern seaboard for three years, living the dream.

It was, you know, I wouldn't trade it, but I'd never go back, you know.

So this was a rock and roll lifestyle.

It.

Yeah, we were a.

What was it?

Daylight?

What was a day like?

Oh, man, we do.

So we live sort of.

We live communally.

The band did.

And we had a guy that was our sound guy, and we would, you know, we drive down to Hoboken, New Jersey, and play a gig down there that night.

And then we could afford to get a hotel in New York or Hoboken there.

So we'd have to stay in some dump out.

Out in Jersey City, you know, where you sleep on top of the covers because you're afraid of what you're going to pick up.

And then we drive up to New Hampshire the next day and play some, you know, casino up there.

It was just, you know, whatever we.

Any.

Anything.

And it was just.

It was just go, go, go.

Just.

What.

Where can we.

What can we do next?

What were your hours like?

So you would play at what time?

Usually, you know, one.

One in the morning, maybe.

Maybe two.

And then you got to load up and go.

So typically, we'd be done with a gig and we'd get all loaded up and we drive to the next town.

And as we're driving in the next town, everybody be getting up and going to work.

You know, I look at those suckers, those like I am today and think.

Man, I'll never be like that.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

But then you have to sleep at some point, which you're like just day sleeping the best you can, I guess.

Sleeping and sleeping in the van.

And, and we did have a rental house that we were kind of in and out of.

We based out of Albany, New York, because it was kind of centrally located.

We were playing the city and then we're playing the college circuit in Vermont and New Hampshire.

We lived down in Florida for eight months.

And it was, it was a 20 year old's dream, I'll tell you.

Wow.

And so looking back on that, what is something that you gleaned from your rock and roll lifestyle experience that helps you today and how you view things or perceive things?

You know, I've always been someone who thinks, why not?

Why not me?

Why?

You know, and like I, and it sounds like I was, you can hear that story and kind of think I was a loser musician, you know, drop out of college and.

But I really, I had a passion for music and I loved play and I wanted with everything in my being to be a professional musician.

And I, I went for it with everything.

And, and I guess that's the thing that's, that stuck with me just to Jimmy Weaver, the dream believer, that's, that's who I want to be.

That's why, that's why I aspire to be.

Yeah.

I mean, it's.

I feel like so few people that you run into or that, you know, we run to the other day actually have a story where they've literally, they go all in on something that may not work.

And is there anything more than may not work potentially than a rock and roll band?

But you got to have the belief in the possibility.

Right?

Like, yeah.

You know, buying in and having that moment, I suspect.

And you're, and you're looking back, say it was worth it, you know, to do it and, and to grow through that.

Of course you're not the same person you were then because none of us are, you know, young, but you've had that experience, so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was cool.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

What did you learn early because of it though?

I struggled early in my career transitioning, you know, my resume did not look good.

I really struggled.

Yeah.

They're like, well, how does, you know, what's your work experience?

Well, I've been, you know, the drummer, which by the way, I think is one of the most important things in a rock and roll band.

Of course.

Right.

It's hard to rock and roll without a drummer.

I mean, isn't the Drummer.

The drummer is the heartbeat of the operation.

Right?

Yeah.

Well, I'm biased, you know, but, yeah, if you have a bad drummer, it's just a bad day, you know.

Yeah.

And you gotta.

You know, we could probably draw some leadership similarities of, hey, the leaders gotta set the cadence.

Right.

I suspect.

Yeah.

And it's not a glamorous.

You know, you're not out front and you've got to carry it every moment.

You really need to be on.

You can't take a break.

And.

And really my goal as a drummer is to make the other players around me and make the audience feel good.

That's my goal.

And I think there's probably some.

Some translation of that into, you know, being a.

Being a leader and.

And, you know, running a business.

Yeah, yeah.

It's not always glamorous being coo, I'm sure.

But like you say, you gotta do it and you gotta.

I mean, the operations are so critical.

Yeah.

And being able to have that experience from being behind.

Behind the front person, but still appreciating it.

Now, one of the things I want to make sure we have time to get into is this track record of organic growth.

So many businesses, you know, they grow through acquisition and whatnot, and they're constantly evaluating that you all have made the choice to really stick, you know, on the organic side of the business.

What recommendations do you have for leaders who are committed to growing organically?

I think the.

I was thinking about this, and we've been talking about it recently and trying to understand what we have done Right.

And I think that I can distill it down to four things that we've done to.

To have that long a track record.

We have a values, not rules, culture.

Two, we've built a corporate identity around thriving in winter, thriving in tough times.

Four, we approach the employer employee relationship as an alliance.

And five, we've rallied around a bhag.

And I'm happy to unpack any of those.

But thinking about the things that have supported our growth these last 20 years, I think those are kind of the four pillars that we've done it on.

Values, not rules.

That's kind of a mantra here.

The idea is, yes, we have policy, yes, we have procedure, yes, we even have some rules.

But we don't serve our policies.

We serve our values.

And if in a given situation, a rule, a policy undermines a value, then that policy or procedure needs to be broken or bent.

You do not get to say around here, I follow policy, or that's the way we always do it, or that is not a valid answer to why you did something.

Yeah, yeah, that definitely sounds like a place that can thrive in winter.

Right.

Your other value, because if you're not flexible when things get tough, you gotta be able to flex to your environment.

And I think that's so important.

And it brought up for me another one that a thing that's been coming up time and time again, some interviews recently.

We, we just interviewed or I just interviewed the chief human resource officer, Nicola Moreau of IBM and she got really into this topic around new collar workers.

Yes.

And, and IBM of course is globally hiring all these people and they have all these strict hiring things that you, you know, education's got to be here, all these things have got to be in place to work at IBM.

And now she said 50% of their job openings don't even require a college degree.

I heard that.

I heard, yes, I listen to it.

That was a great interview.

And that's, those are a lot of the discussions we're having with our clients right now.

And I'll tell you, when I run into a rule and this is what I, I've said this on stage in front of our team.

I asked my first question is, is it really a rule?

Is that really a rule?

And the second question is, okay, if it is a rule, what happens if I break it?

What's the consequence?

Let me, you know, because we, we, we put these, we put these constraints on ourselves and they're just, we've made them, we create the constraints and then we're frustrated because, well, it's the, is it really the rule?

And, well, what happens if we don't follow the rule in this, this given, given situation?

It's all risk analysis is what it is and not, I'm not.

One of our values is integrity.

So that's the other thing too, when people, you know, you got to be careful with the values, not rules thing because people will throw that back in your face.

Well, Jim, values, not rules.

I mean, I, and you know, it's.

Not a license both ways, eh?

Yes, it's not a license.

Do whatever the heck you want.

And integrity is one of our values.

So we need to do what we say we're going to do when we're going to do it.

We need to, we do, we, we need to, we need, we need to do that.

And, and performance is also a value.

So if you're, if you're bending a rule and it, and it's not, it's, it doesn't have integrity, you're bending the rule or it doesn't lead to performance, then you're just.

You're just copping out.

You're just making an excuse for sloppy.

Yeah.

What I like, what I like about the road that you're going down is it's one thing for a value to businesses, leaders, team leaders, to talk about values, but it's so important that you make sure that the people working there and the customers experience the values.

And sometimes they're experiencing them and they don't even know they are.

And I think it's a great example about integrity.

Saying, hey, we experience this by doing what we say we're going to do.

So when I tell you I'm going to deliver on this for the client, I do it.

And therefore we are living out our integrity value.

And it's just.

Just makes so much sense.

But I feel like it's.

It's really the leader's responsibility to make that connection for people.

Yeah.

Because it.

Otherwise it can see.

Seems so darn abstract.

Yeah.

That it just gets up on the wall.

So you do a nice job.

What you're talking about there.

Making that connection.

Now, being in the staffing industry, I've been dying to ask you this question.

Without including names, what's your most colorful story of when someone quit or was fired?

Man, we.

We always talk about.

Well, here's, here's one for the book.

You know, there was a.

I want.

To see the book after this.

You got a book of these?

I mean, some are.

This is a family friendly, you know, show.

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep the.

Ones out that are.

She has somewhat PG, PG 13.

Oh, my goodness, man.

Yeah.

I tell you, there was a.

There was a guy who, who thought.

Have you seen the Office where Dwight Schrute throws a cigarette in the trash can and sets off the alarm.

And yes, this guy wanted the afternoon off.

So he starts as a huge plant up in Tennessee and he wanted the afternoon off.

And he started a fire and burned the whole place to the ground because.

He wanted a day off.

He wanted to, you know, the fire alarm go off.

Figured it would be, you know, he.

Thought it would be contained.

Yeah.

And they wouldn't know who it was.

I ended up doing.

Ended up doing prison time.

But that's the most outrageous.

Oh, my gosh.

That's probably the best staffing story I, I have for you.

I hope the afternoon was really good.

It sounds like it was his last free one.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

He got.

He got free meals and plenty of downtime for For a few years.

Out of that.

Out of that prank for sure.

Yeah.

Next time, just request a day off.

I know.

It's not worth it.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

What's one trait you wish you could still in every employee?

And why is it so important?

Curiosity.

Curiosity.

You know, I.

Our ability as an organization to adapt and apply new information is both our current competitive edge and our insurance that we'll be able to thrive over the long term.

So we really are.

This is a shift over the last two or three, a real focus as an organization.

We have got to have a strong learning and development culture.

And in order to have that, we've got to have leaders.

You got to have people that are curious.

Have you ever heard this concept of the modern elder?

No.

Chip Conley, he's an author.

I heard him.

Chip and Dan Heath.

Not Conley.

Okay.

But good.

Chip Conley.

I think he's the one that coined the idea.

But the idea with the modern elder is the modern elder is as curious as they are wise.

And you think of the old timers that you want to be around, the 80, 90 year olds that you want to be around, and the 80, 90 year olds you don't want to be around, you don't want to be.

Right.

Let's be real.

There's a difference.

Yeah.

The ones that know it all, you don't want to be around.

But the ones that are curious and then they're bringing eight, nine decades of wisdom to the table, those are.

I mean, those, Those.

Those folks are a treasure.

So I think not only is it important to our organization, but, you know, I'm.

I'm 50 and, you know, a lot of times, guys, people, when they get to be our age, they start to get stuck in their ways.

They think they have it all figured out and they kind of grab a hold of their career and they just run out the clock, you know?

And I just.

I feel like the curiosity thing is super important for just running through the tape.

Strong as a person, too.

So, man, the curiosity thing is huge, and it's pretty rare.

What's your recommendation for leaders who want to stay curious?

Play drums, do the thing.

I mean, I am a voracious reader, okay.

I consume immense amounts of podcasts and I love new ideas.

So fall in love with new ideas.

Don't be afraid to be a beginner again, man.

About four years ago, I started training jiu jitsu and going in at my age and just getting my butt whipped on the mat.

Choked out, tapped out.

Time after time after time, but what an amazing growth experience for me on so many levels that has been.

So just be curious and be on the.

Develop a hunger for new ideas and don't be afraid to be a beginner.

Yeah.

I, I think what you just said is, no pun intended, is like a ninja Jedi because you put yourself in situations where you're uncomfortable in that Jiu Jitsu moment and you have no.

I mean, that's a great example of putting yourself in a position where you're uncomfortable, but knowing that you have to learn or it's not going to work out.

Yeah.

I mean, and you tap out enough.

I've not done Jiu Jitsu, but I know a lot of people who have at an older age.

And it's like.

Yeah.

I mean, you get you out of your comfort zone.

For me, one of the things is doing salsa.

I've done swinging with my wife and friends for a long time, east coast and West Coast.

But getting out into the Latin dance world is a complete.

As you know.

Yeah.

Tito Puente and the Timbalis and all that.

It's like a completely different rhythm.

It's.

It's way more intense.

Yeah.

Also in so many ways.

And so doing that.

Yeah, it just expands you and you can get more curious about it.

I'm a big music fan too, and I love different kinds of music.

You can.

And my daughter is 11 and she's exposed me to a lot more pop music than I would like.

Yeah.

I am.

You know, we trade back and forth.

She.

She gets.

She gets to pick a song and then I pick a song and then my wife picks a song and we kind of.

We can do that for hours in the car.

So.

Well, wait.

My 17 year old, my middle child, he's got great taste in music and he turns me.

Wait till she gets a little older.

She's going to turn you on to some cool stuff, I'm telling you right now.

Oh, yeah, well, she.

She's got.

She's getting there.

Getting there.

Yeah.

I mean, I've listened more to Taylor Swift than a human being should through her, but she goes deep.

She'll go deep in the catalog.

Yeah.

And sort of a.

This is a side thing, but we.

She's discovered Glee.

Are you familiar with Glee?

Oh, sure, sure.

Yeah.

And so Disney has now released all the episodes at one time Ugly.

So there's like seven to nine seasons.

And really, I think a lot of this is too edgy for 11 year olds.

Some of the topics.

But the performances are so incredible.

And my daughter is now listening To Fleetwood Mac.

Wow.

Rumors album because of Glee.

And they introduce her.

She.

She knew Michael Jackson, but now she has Michael Jackson, you know, much more.

And they.

They'll often go deep in their episodes, so.

And it's also provoked a lot of conversations at home with her going to middle school that we would not have had otherwise.

Yeah.

About drugs and sex and a lot of stuff that, you know, comes up in the show.

So anyway, that's.

Curiosity for.

That opened up for you and her because you were willing to be open to what she was into and curious about what she's into.

And.

And that.

That.

That helped cultivate a deeper relationship between you and your daughter.

That's.

That's beautiful.

That's so true.

Yeah.

And it really.

And I had to.

I could have shut it down after one episode.

If you watch the first episode, y'all, Glee, that's pretty much what it is.

And it's a leggy.

Yeah.

But anyway, so that.

That's cool.

And I like it, y'all.

For the listeners you got to hear in there.

I mean, Jim has some good ideas about how to foster the curiosity in yourself as a leader.

If you're.

If you're coming on, you're talking about.

Your team needs to be more curious.

The best way to do it is.

What Jim's talking about here is do it yourself first.

Lead the way.

Yeah.

Just you being on this show shows you're probably curious about what's gonna go down with this Ben Fanning guy.

Hey, I started listening to some podcasts and started reading your book, so I'm.

I'm curious for sure.

Well, gracias for that.

Oh, man.

So kind of going the next step with curiosity.

Curiosity evokes ideas.

And you say in the interview here, you're not.

You love new ideas.

But when the shoe is on the other foot and your employees have ideas, sometimes, maybe many.

It can be like unleashing Pandora's box when you're trying to get the work done.

What's advice for leaders and their teams when they have a big idea?

How do they need to communicate it to the C suite?

Well, if you come with an idea, then, and you're really passionate about it, you really believe in it, and you need to come with a plan to execute it.

And you need to realize that if you come to me and you have that idea, I'm gonna make you head of the committee to get that idea started.

You know, and that's actually a great filter, because they know it's like they're not coming to me to tell me what I should do.

It's like, hey, man, that's awesome.

Why don't you do this and try that or try that in your region and let's measure the results and if it has the impact you think it's going to have, we'll scale it out to the organization or whatever it is.

Yeah, it goes back to don't give your boss more work.

Your job is to give them less work at a foundational level.

They're already pretty busy, but I like, that allows them to take the extra step and think through the execution side of it because, I mean, that's, that's ultimately where the rubber meets the road.

Well, and you, yeah, you talk about creating the job you love, you know, and that's, that's what you're doing.

When, when someone wants to be.

If they're, they're an aspiring leader and then they notice a void or there's a vacuum or why doesn't somebody do this?

I always used to think, ding, ding, ding.

Oh, there's my angle.

I'm going to go do, you know, like that's.

There's a vacuum there.

I'm going to fill that, you know, and that's how, you know there's people that have done bigger things than me.

I've had a good run though, and that's how I've done it.

It's not a frustration when I see nobody stepped up to do this.

It's an opportunity.

I love it.

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Go to benfanning.com insight when's the time you had unexpected twist or failure in your career and how did it lead to your success or growth on down the road?

So I got off the road with the band, went back to school at Berkeley, played around Boston.

I got a gig with a country artist in Nashville, Kevin Sharp.

He had a couple of hits in.

The 90s and I checked those out, by the way.

Oh, yeah.

Nice.

Very nice.

Yeah, I'll Spotify.

I could check them out.

Yeah, that's you.

I'm not playing on the album.

No.

Okay.

They have different musicians in the studio.

Studio versus on the road.

Studio is what you graduate to after you've been on the road for.

Okay, okay.

All right.

Those guys are elite.

Elite.

I mean, it's barely discernible difference, but it's just.

Anyway, so I was in Nashville and my wife and I, we Moved to Nashville.

We were in a ton of debt and I was on the road and we were playing out, but I also sold.

I did sales while I was gigging because we were buried in consumer debt and, you know, needed to dig out of it and.

And.

But things were working and I was kind of climbing the.

Climbing the mountain.

And I had the gig with Kevin and.

And I was playing around town and I would go, though, like, we do a run down to Texas, go to Houston and Dallas, maybe in San Antonio, and then we drive back Sunday night, and then we.

We'd sleep in the.

In the bus, you know, on the little coffin bunk, and then pull up at the Kroger in Brentwood, Tennessee, where we would rendezvous.

I get in the car and I go sell advertising.

So I was burning it at both ends.

I finally in.

In 2000, gotten to the point where I was making a living again at music.

I had a road gig.

Felt like I was right there at the.

At the peak of the mountain, kind of.

And then I got the call from Kevin, or Kevin's manager, and I got fired.

He just clean house.

Just clean house.

And that happens in Nashville.

And it was like I was right there at the.

At the.

At the peak.

And I lost my footing and went a half a quarter mile back down the mountain.

And I was so tired is.

So I was so devastated.

And out of that, though, I had to go.

I thought, well, I got to get a day job again because that just.

That was my main income.

So I walked into the Onan office in Nashville looking for a warehouse job or something so we could keep eating while I interviewed to try to get another sales gig.

And the manager there said to me, you know, Jim, we have a sales opening.

You should interview for that job.

You'd be great.

So I did.

And 21 years later, here I am.

Wow.

Yeah.

So the day.

Was it the day you got fired from the.

No, it was.

It was.

It was a couple weeks.

But, I mean, that was your next move, was your next job was where you are today, essentially at the company?

Yes, yes, yes.

Well, actually, I had a little run.

It was Christmas time, I remember, and they didn't want to start me until the first of the year because they didn't want to burn a bunch of money on some sales guy that wasn't going to be productive.

So I ended up being a Sprint PCs foam phone for the holidays right before I started.

So that was, man acting.

It was a low point, man, I'm telling you.

Wow.

Sprint phone.

So drummer on the Stage living your dream.

Sort of feeling like you're getting to the rock and roll dream.

To sprint phone actor, so to speak.

Yeah.

To getting the start in a company that's going to propel your career to the C suite and you're going to go from a 10 million to a 800 million dollar company.

That is a wild story, my friend.

Yeah, that's good.

I love it.

But it goes to show, I mean they're all journeys are a little different.

If there was one theme.

Is it, is it the why not message or what's the, when you kind of look back at it, what, what do you, what's kind of the thing that you take away?

Why not, why not you?

Why not me?

You know, I mean like why not possibility?

The only thing that's really, I really believe that I, I, and, and when I run into a, a point where I feel like I'm kind of out of my depth or I'm at the edge of my operating range, I ask myself the question, well, if I were qualified to tackle this, how would somebody who qualified to tackle this tackle it?

It's time to get on YouTube.

Little game though.

It kind of unlocks the other 90% in my brain that I don't use.

And I mean I've done that for 20 years.

And so that's.

Yeah, why not?

Why not?

That's a cool hack.

That's a cool hack.

What if, yeah, if I, what somebody.

I'm not smart enough for this.

Well, what if I was?

Well, how would I, what would I do?

You know, because with the curiosity and building upon that, you know, that, that continued learning.

So wrapping this up, what's a tool or gadget that's contributed to your success that listeners could go out and purchase?

I recently discovered Blinkist.

Are you familiar with Blinkist?

Relatively recently, yeah.

But yeah, so, so I would love to hear how you're using it in your day and what it's, how's it work for you.

So Blinkist now I haven't, I haven't read the Cliff Note.

Blinkist is basically, it's, it's a book in 20 minutes.

It's a 20 minute summary of a book on it.

It's audio, it's an audio summary and I think they do actually written summaries as well.

I haven't, haven't done the written summaries but.

And the cool thing I used to read.

So when I was deciding what book to read, I would read the first couple paragraphs and the last paragraph of each chapter and kind of understand the arc of the book.

And then if I felt like I had a good map and then I could make a decision whether I wanted to invest the time reading this does.

In 20 minutes on the ride home, I can check out a book and decide whether I want to dig deeper into it or if it's a book that a lot of people are talking about.

I feel like, well, I've already kind of tackled that subject, but I want to know what just kind of the framework that the author used.

I want to understand it.

20 minute investment and boom, you've got the high points of the ideas and can speak intelligently about it.

So I think it's a great hack.

I've really enjoyed it.

Yeah, I'm actually a blinkist person.

I've been using it.

A friend of mine, Mike Vardy, turned me onto it.

And very similarly it's, it's a great way, especially for the interviews that I do to sort of gauge authors and their topics to see if they might be a good fit or just interested in the topic.

And because they.

It's not just business related books, which I think is kind of interesting.

Like they'll go deep on the hot issues with like evolution and some other topics that are pretty interesting.

You can also pick up other skills there.

So.

And it's not boring.

They do a really good job of producing them and, and it's surprising how much of a book you can actually get in 20 minutes.

I know, it's like, wow.

Well, I've been doing this before.

Yeah.

Yeah, man.

Well, to wrap this up, what's your parting thought for our listeners today, sir.

I'll dovetail off of, of your, your books narrative.

It just this, this is the way I say it.

Love your job, love your career.

And when I say love, it's a verb, it's active.

You know, I love my wife, so I invest in her, I invest in our relationship, I invest time, I figure out what she likes, what she doesn't like.

You know, I buy her things, I take her out.

I invest in that relationship because I love.

Love is, is active.

It's not primarily a feeling in my view.

You and same thing with work.

What if you, what if it's staying Instead of saying I love my job or I don't love my job, love your job.

Like show love to it, invest in it, choose to love your job.

That's the way.

And that's that, that's the theme of your book.

I'm excited to get into it because I love it.

But that's a great sorry thing you, what you truly love, you invest in because it, it fosters growth.

So I love that.

I love that.

And last question, Favorite drummer of all time.

Oh, man, I have to say Tony Williams.

Well, I'll give you two Tony Williams and Vinny Kaliuda.

So Tony Williams was Miles Davis, Miles Davis's drummer in like Nefertiti era, like kind of that post bebop era.

He's a bad man.

He's so good.

He was like 18 when he recorded that album.

He's just unbelievable.

Just nasty jazz drummer.

He was so good.

And then Vinny Kaliuda, he's a, he's a session guy.

He played with Sting, he played with Frank Zappa.

He's played on a gazillion albums.

He's an amazing drummer as well.

Kind of similar to Tony.

He can also do the jazz thing.

So those two.

Sting once fired him because he can turn around the beat.

The way he plays around the rhythm.

It can turn around the beat and then land on the beat is so out there.

That one time he lost Sting and Sting came in the wrong spot and Sting fired him and then hired him back like an hour later or something.

That was terrible.

Oh wait, that was genius.

That was so out there.

I didn't appreciate it at the time.

Yes.

Yes.

Cool.

Jim, thanks for coming on today.

Yeah, Ben, we appreciate, I appreciate your time.

It's been fun.

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