Welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G. Our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. We wanna give a shout out to one of our sponsors, KD Hearst with Don't F Up the Crime Scene. He was a guest with us, and this is kind of the kind of topic that he would be involved in. So shout out to him. You can find out information on his website, dfutcs.com. So today's guest is Shalimar Oliver. She is the Animal Crimes Manager at the Humane Society of the United States, and an awesome person. Welcome Shalimar, and thank you for joining me.

Thank you for

having me, Dr. G. So, how about you let people know who you are and what brought you to where you are today?

Oh, yes. Okay. So, uh, let's see. I've been with the Humane Society of the United States for, almost six years now. And, My current role. We work as you know, nationwide with different local, state, federal agencies on all kinds of animal crimes related things, offering support, consultation resources, all the way up to full scale deployments when you see us out in the field working with law enforcement, executing a warrant and usually taking a large number of animals. But, um, prior to that, I actually was an animal control officer in San Diego County, California, uh, for about 11 years. And so conducted, you know, numerous animal cruelty investigations, working by investigations, all kinds of things, picking up, you know, stray, hit by car while injured animals, you name it. Uh, caiman alligator. That's a story for another time. Uh, and then, uh, worked at the San Diego Humane Society before that as a behavior counselor. So kind of got that portion of our work, uh, in the, about a year and a half that I was there. But before that I worked at, uh, the Sydney R S P C A in Australia and in Aussie Wildlife Park too. So got some diversity with different species, but, um, none that you'll really find free roaming around these parts.

I met you. I, well, I finally got to work with you for the first time LA last year on a large scale case. So I feel you would be an excellent guest to have to discuss large scale cases, how they are worked, uh, the, the things that work, the things that don't work, and, you know, just educating everybody from animal control officers to hopefully the, the people in law enforcement and even veterinarians in the community on everything that it takes to, to work up these cases. So, can you first let our listeners know what is a, what constitutes a large scale case?

I mean, I don't think there's really any set definition, right? We kind of talk about when we reference, um, hoarding, you know, we think of like a large accumulation of animals and more than one person can ultimately take care of and has the capacity to provide the basic but proper care to. So there's no number. You know, when we go to the different homes with people, it's like, you know, if they have more than 10 cats, more than 12 dogs, there's, it's just when that level of care kind of starts to fail. and you know, as you know, with the whole term large scale, we kind of moved out of referencing it as hoarding because it's in the DSM five, it's a clinical diagnosis, so we have to be extra careful with how we reference it. I think in our safe space, in the welfare field, you know, we all know how to talk about it amongst ourselves. But, uh, from a legal standpoint, now that it's an actual diagnosis, we kind of are using the large scale neglect, large scale cruelty term instead.

We talk about, um, how rescue hoarders, for instance, are not necessarily people that are sick, right? Like puppy mills can be a hoarder. So that would be something that would fit under that. Like we cannot really call them necessarily hoarders, so it's a mental disease because they're, they may not be sick. They may just be doing it for their own benefit.

Yeah. There's like any type of, um, large sum of animals that have to be seized, whether it come from a collector, a hoarder, uh, a business, you know, like a breeder. So,

Who are the people involved in identifying these cases and how do they ask for help or how do they approach you

guys?

Usually, so we get outreach kind of two different ways, and it can come from the public. So the complainant themselves that's seen it, been there, knows about it, um, and has, you know, direct, uh, a direct experience with the situation. Or it could be from law enforcement to reaching out. So, you know, if they're already investigating something and they've acknowledged it's definitely exceeds the capacity and the level of resources they have as an agency, um, then they will reach out to us. But if the complainant's sending us information, then we're likely gonna reach out to local law enforcement, animal control, whoever the, whoever has jurisdiction, and then we are gonna pass that information over to them and, and then with sending that information, Offer at the end of it, Hey, let us know if you need something cuz we can offer all these different types of assistance if you need it. So it's not like anything with stepping on toes, we're not an enforcement authority. Um, but we look to identify what types of resources we could potentially help with in order to make that case work and succeed.

People will, will sometimes say, oh, the Humane Society, and not just like you guys, but in general, humane Society didn't do anything about it. Mm-hmm. And there is a lack of understanding that the Humane Society is not necessarily a law enforcement facility that can prosecute, that can bring up cases against. So what, what is the importance of law enforcement and how are they involved in the whole

process? I think it depends on the jurisdiction, because sometimes you'll only have law enforcement such as a police department. We're a sheriff's office and there won't be an animal shelter or animal control humane society locally. So they are tasked with having to investigate file charges, prosecute everything. Um, but if there is an animal control agency or a humane society, often we see now we have animal control officers, we have humane law enforcement, and these guys that already have the experience and the foundational knowledge of everything, animal can go out and start the investigation at least and, you know, just build their case. Sometimes they've gotta refer it over to police officer or sheriff's deputy. But otherwise, you know, we see a lot of these ACOs out there that are taking these cases on and, eventually discovering that they have something, right. They've got that thing that, you know, they got the original complaint. They tried educating, right? We think, we all know that we, we don't want to have to take the things if we don't have to, right? And so when education fails and things kind of become non-compliant and nothing's changing, at what point do we in the work that we do, have to step in and say, okay, enough's enough. You are not, there's no change here. There's no improvement for the lives of these animals. So therefore, we have to step in and look at either criminally, prosecuting, charging, uh, and seizing the animals so that we can get them the care they need. Um, so yeah, it's, most of the time we see a lot of the ACOs and the humane offices doing it, but we are seeing a lot of police officers and sheriffs that are having to take this on too. And it's

important to educate people, as you say, because sometimes the problems occur because of lack of education, or even there may be lack of finances, lack of their knowledge of what they can do to solve the problem. Uh, like with some, some people that are collectors of animals, they may want help, but they don't know what to do with it. So you're not necessarily going in, in an aggressive mode to, to get them in trouble. We're trying to help them and trying to help the animals, but one of the things that we have discussed in the past is how there has to be some legal action in some of these cases to be able to, to keep an eye on them and manage them properly. Yeah. So I, it comes to mind with, for instance, with like hoarders, people that. that just really love these animals and they cannot get rid of 'em. Or even if they're willing to accept some help, that there still has to be legal involvement in those cases to manage them. So can you explain the why that's needed and the importance of that short and long

term? Yeah, I mean, it's hard because a lot of the times you'll come in and you'll have to, you'll, you'll have these conversations with these agencies that are like, We just wanna go in and take the animals. Well, that doesn't get rid of the problem. And especially when you're looking at these collectors in these large scale situations of we know, you know, uh, it's, there's close to a hundred percent recidivism rate. So they will go back out. You take these animals now, they'll go back out and re accumulate in X amount of time, and you'll be right back to where you started and when we're, experiencing this national crisis with the overpopulation, the lack of resources that are out there for all these shelters taking in these animals, that's one of the most important things that we're trying to point out to law enforcement of why, why you need to kind of nip it in the bud. And unfortunately, yes, criminal charges need to apply in order to get them help as the person, as the offender, ensure the safety of the animals, the success for the criminal case, but also the security of the shelters that are working with these animals. Because the last thing you wanna do, Seize a hundred cats tomorrow and then in three months, four months they've got another 50. And that same shelter is tasked with having to take another 50 cats. Um, and I think that's, they're kind of like the forgotten piece here is that, you know, law enforcement's stepping up to take the case on, but they have to communicate as well with their animal shelters, humane society. So everyone's on the same page with the before and after, how things will work, who it's gonna affect, um, in the long term, like you just said, so that they don't re-offend and shelters aren't right back where they started investing more resources that they don't have. Um, cuz it takes away from the rest of the, you know, support, they're able to offer their community when they have to put all their focus on this one specific situation with all these animals that, as you know, sometimes we're, we're holding for a really long time. if they're not immediately surrendered, so that shelter that's holding those animals is paying for, caring for their staff is, you know, tasked with the, the burden of, you know, what we know are usually a large number of not so well animals. They're usually sick. They can be, you know, under socialized and that just, that weighs so heavy on shelter staff and, and, um, services.

It's really important for people to understand that because it is a mental health problem. The hoarding, for instance, is that part of the legal system, part of the, of the action has to be mandatory health evaluations and treatment. Because we can, as, as you well said, you take the animals away. You don't do anything about it. The problem's still there. Many, many years ago, we were part of a TV show that dealt with animal hoarding, and they went somewhere here in, in Ohio, in Jackson County, Ohio. And they had us come in to do spay and neuter, and they went into this family that, um, an elderly husband and wife that had well over 80 cats and they took all the cats away. And then, uh, at the end of the episode, you know, all the people went to this nursing home and happily ever after. Well, that's happy ever after. As to the end of the episode, because nothing happened, nothing was changed. Those people could not afford to stay in that housing environment. So they went back to that home that was just should have condemned. They go back to that, that dirty home, and then they started accumulating cats again. So within a six month period, they were up to 36 cats again, and they were calling us for help with spay and neuter. So that to me, showed me the importance of legal action. It's not that I wanna get these old people in trouble, right? It's not that I want them to go to jail. It's not that I want anything, but I want them to receive. Some form of help because without, without mental health assistance, nothing is going to get better.

And that's the only way now we're seeing like, you have to get them, they have to be charged with something, they've gotta be put in the system. And it's really hard, you know, we'll have law enforcement come back and say like, I'm not, you know, just like you said, I'm not gonna charge this sweet old lady that you know, has a hundred cats that are dying. I'm gonna look bad too. They're worried about how that's gonna look to their community. It's like, if you look at it from a different perspective, you're actually showing your community that you don't only wanna support the animals of your community, but the people too, because you're helping both. And it's, you know, a perspective we're trying to. Have these agencies see that, you know, if you get them monitored, you, you get them on probation, you give them the span of ownership. Um, the mental health counseling is super important, um, so that everything can be monitored and things are documented, but it's the only way to get them the actual help that they need. Um, and you nailed it on the head too, with the, the whole, we're not trying to put people in prison for, you know, things getting outta control. Often as we know, there's a trigger behind a lot of these collections, like something that started it all and. They just kind of lost track, but they still need that help. So when these agencies just want to dismiss them and come in and take the animals, it's really unfortunate cause we know they'll be back there in a short period of time. But it's really fantastic to see. A lot more agencies now are kind of more receptive to this because there's sadly the proof from all these other cases out there where it's failed and they've gone back and collected more and they've been in the same pickle they were in six months ago.

Yeah. Suppose as animal welfare advocates, we just get so concerned about the animals. That we forget about the humans involved, and we try to vilify them because these animals are suffering and they're being neglected. And yes, something needs to be to be done, but we need to understand why they're doing it, what the, the reasons were, and then work with this person to keep 'em from doing it again. And the other side of it is getting other, other organizations like the health Department involved. I worked a case with in Athens County where her probation, I think it just, uh, it just lifted this year. So she's back to being able to, to own animals. However, the house is still not in, in the right environment for her to be able to live there. So because this case went through court, the health department got involved. They are, they don't have a time limit. Right. The, the house needs to be clean and habitable before this elderly lady can go back to living in it. So we are making sure that this lady is not living in filth covered in, in feces and urine and everything else. Um, we are showing care for her even though the dogs that were in her care were not in good shape, were trying to help her so that this doesn't occur again.

Yeah, no, and, and there's another fantastic point. I think we know that it's always going to be a multidisciplinary approach. You know, we've, we, most of us have already talked about this, but it's, it's when you're explaining these agencies, if you all work together, you can accomplish so much more and. Honestly, like, as we know, what are the odds? Like the police department's been out there before code compliance has been out there, code enforcement, animal control. Most of us know that these addresses and these people, we've gone out for separate issues. But if we just join forces on it, um, it, it's, it's so much more helpful. So the whole cross reporting thing, we are totally big advocates of with sharing information, um, to all, you know, assess how everyone can help and come together to help the person and get the animals out of it. So definitely, something important to stress of like, why? Agencies need to be working together. And it gives you that extra foot cuz um, I've had search warrants where, you know, we've invited code enforcement to piggyback on them. You know, like, Hey, we're going out to this property. And they're like, oh, oh my gosh, I, I have a feeling all these violations are happening. I love to be able to get into, to take a look and, and see, um, child welfare services, adult protective services too. You know, and that's, that's huge. Sadly. Now with, um, uh, you know, a lot of these issues that we know, the, the term, the link. And so we're, we're seeing other multiple issues beyond that happening. So you bring these multiple agencies in cuz there's also not just the animal cruelty going on, but sometimes something else is going on too. Yeah,

we, uh, we have had, well I've worked in a couple of cases. One was a rescue hoarder and then, um, the other one was a lady that starved her dog to death. Like she just abandoned it in a trailer and the dog died. And both were cases where there were minors. That were being neglected. So in us doing something about these animals, then health services get involved, other organizations get involved, and then they're able to help these kids. Mm-hmm. Um, and it all started by, you know, as a veterinarian, making a complaint about this animal is not being taken care of. The case of the starved dog was an animal control officer that saw the, the dead dog. Well, he could have stopped there, just taken the dog, the, the dead dog away and, you know, just figured out, okay, it's just a dog. But he decided to start an investigation. He decided to contact me as a forensic veterinarian to evaluate if, if it had been neglect and cruelty, if this had been done on purpose. And then from there it just, It just goes into, into a much bigger picture. Yeah. And we even talk about cases of, like with dog fighting, sometimes you investigate a case of dog fighting and you find a bunch of other crimes, and sometimes you investigate a crime and find dog fighting. I just heard today on our, on our Facebook page about a case that they were just being investigated. It was a search warrant for weed. Like, it, it sounds, you know, simple enough, but they went in and there were tons of guns and then there was dog fighting. Yeah. So, you know, doing say, seeing something, doing something, saying something and then getting everybody involved can, can help not just the animals, but it helps the community in general. Oh, for

sure. Yeah. Putting a spotlight on, you know, multiple other problems. Um, yeah, that was a great case. I just read that when you posted it the other day.

Yeah. So can you run us through, a large scale case from, the, the beginning of it and then how it gets worked up?

I mean, so I, I cannot, uh, stress the importance enough, and I think, uh, you know, you'll high five me on this one. Is, is the pre-planning. Yes. Pre soon as you know. Yes. Soon as you know, it's gonna be something, um, you know, pre-planning and don't rush. So you get your, you build your investigation, right? Most of you obviously know how to, um, start your investigation. You hopefully you've tried your education. Usually there's some type of compliance order that's issued cuz you want your paper trail, right? Just to show that you tried, you tried, you tried. Nothing worked. It failed. Uh, they became non-compliant, what have you. So you've reached this point and you, you've consulted with your prosecutor, they're on board and see that there are multiple violations. There is enough probable cause, um, for a search warrant. There's enough evidence to show that there are violations occurring and that ultimately the only way to stop and intercept is to seize them. Via search warrant. So once you have those pieces on board, which sidebar can be a huge problem and, and, and barrier for some people in their jurisdiction, uh, with leadership, with, you know, the different prosecutors who are also tasked with multiple, multiple counties to cover human crimes, uh, human cases as well as animal cases. So we see a lot of, you know, investigators across the country have that issue of like, I can't even get it through to my prosecutor or to my sheriff or or police chief, the, the person above them. So sometimes they hit another wall, but once you get those green lights and there is enough to move forward, then you begin your planning. Uh, because it's, it's so important again, to consider the ripple effect. Cuz if you go out and you rush, we are human, we are going to make errors. And, but do we want to run that risk and make that error, uh, at the risk of these animals safety? Do we wanna compromise the criminal case? Absolutely not. So at least I speak for us as an organization, we pride ourselves in our pre-planning and we wanna make sure, uh, you know, it's gonna take a while. We don't just come out overnight. Um, but for the safety of everyone involved, we do have to plan things of, you know, you take these animals, how is that gonna look like on the seizure day? Who do you have there? Because I've had agencies call us for help. I'm like, do you have a veterinarian? They're like, no, we were just gonna call when we got out there. And it's like, let me tell you about this other national crisis called shortage. And, uh, uh, you know, let alone, if it's a small animal vet or a large animal vet, you're, you're really out of luck often. So, um, Yeah. But once you're out on scene, how, how is that operation going to look like? What, who are your personnel? Are they experienced for the species of animal that they're handling? Do you have the veterinarian? How are you documenting everything you find on scene? Um, and who's with you? Do you have a police department and sheriff's office that's coming out to, to keep, you know, hold the scene? Um, so there, there's all of that. And as we know too, you get out on scene, you can plan for those a hundred cats as much as you want. There's gonna be 375, um, right. So, you know, ha, having all these backup plans of what if this fails, what would we, what would we do then? And, um, if, you know, the one shelter or agency can't take in and absorb that population, where are they going to go? Uh, we talk about. Temp shelters, fairgrounds, like other space to use to hold the animals temporarily if, if there isn't a local shelter or the local shelter is full. Um, emptying out the local shelter by transferring those animals out to make space for the incoming case animals. Um, and how long they're gonna have to be held there. You know, we really do try to see if the person is interested in surrendering the animals on seizure day, so that that way we've got more freedom to get them exited to other, you know, shelter and rescue groups, get them fostered, get certain veterinary care. We may not be able to get under normal circumstances, so, you know, um, but once we kind of figure out, you know, like they're not gonna surrender them, then we've gotta hold them for, you know, weeks to months while we file these petitions and documents with the courts. Get a hearing set up to show how much this is going to cost for X amount of care. Usually 30 days of care for the animals. And, you know, you're looking at. Just drafting those, which we do often for the cases that we assist with. You are looking at tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. And because again, these animals were seized out of exigency, they're, you know, um, they can be dying dead, very sick, and the expense for that type of care, even basic care adds up when you're looking at the number of animals that you've gotta see. So just being really over overly. Planned and extra thorough, I think is just one of the most important things to ensure everything goes smoothly so that none of the animals have to be returned. Nothing was questioned about the validity of the warrant and, you know, remembering it says live evidence that we are seizing. It's not getting tossed into a drug locker. It's, it's, you know, something that someone, an agency whomever's responsible for to not just maintain, but to show improvement and steady improvement. Oh, hey, look what two weeks worth of food did for this dog. Look at that. Or, you know, uh, 30 days of food for this horse. And look at its body weight, what it went from. So, just so much planning. Um, but it's easy for us to say this, right? Cuz we're sitting in a controlled environment and we're just, you know, Providing different guidance when you're on scene. Just like you said, there's that passion of like, well, I see this and this and this, and I need to act right now. And that's where sometimes the rush approach doesn't work, but sometimes, I don't know, you might also be left with no other option, but to rush if you're seeing something die right in front of you, um, how do you turn away from that? And, you know, we know there can be loss leading up to the execution of a warrant, but it's just, it can be hard for investigators when you're just standing there and you're seeing stuff. So you unfortunately might get tasked with having to execute something a lot quicker than you'd planned. But hence why pre-planning, it's not just for this case, it's in general as any kind of, um, you know, investigator in this field, you should always just have that in the back of your head of like, what would I do? If I went out on this kind of call, what would we do as an organization? Um, and having these, uh, conversations with your police department, sheriff's office, prosecutor's office, your leadership to say, you know, we just need to have a plan, just like a disaster plan. You know, we know if there's a flood, a fire, a tornado, what have you, uh, what would we do? What do we need? We've gotta get our animal supplies, medications, so we know about things like that. Similarly, we wanna stop planning for what we would do for these cluster cases that could, you know, avalanche and, um, yeah. So tons of planning. Did that answer your question? I just went off on, that was my circle. Yeah. Right there.

No, but yeah, but. No, but exactly that's important because people don't think about the planning part and the importance of it and yeah, like having a standard operating procedure for how you handle different types of cases and knowing all of your contacts of who you're going to call whenever something happens. Uh, last year for example, uh, rescue organization contacted me and said, Hey, we have this problem with all these horses and I don't know what to do and we need to do it immediately. So I reached out to you guys and one of the first things that I told the group that I was working with is, we have to be patient. I know that you wanna get these horses out of there today, but we can't do it today, so we can do it properly. And thankfully, they were very open to it. Um, so things worked in a way that in, in my eyes, was really well planned. And it was, and it, and you guys responded to it, in my opinion, relatively quickly. But, you know, it, it takes, it takes time to plan it properly so that we know that we're not taking these animals from a bad situation and putting them in another bad situation. Exactly. Or that we're gonna take, you know, we're gonna take these animals out and we're not gonna be able to do a proper examination the day off, and then the examination doesn't happen seven to 10 days later. Well, a poor body condition may be a good body condition at the time of that exam. So then how are you gonna prove neglect? How are you gonna prove starvation? How are you gonna prove emaciation? You can't because you don't have the information the day of. You don't have the, the proper data, and even when you plan everything a hundred percent, not everything goes to, goes to plan. Like you guys very well say at the beginning of, of every meeting. It's like, this is our plan for today and tomorrow morning we're probably gonna change it. And so far, every single plan has been changed. Oh yeah. Right.

We just, it's the flow. Just go, just, just go.

Exactly. Because not every case is exactly the same. Not every, not every location that you go to is going to be the same. And yeah. As you, as you said, you expect a hundred animals and you may get 300 or you may expect a hundred and only get 20. So kind of knowing how to, how to respond and react to the environment and making sure that everybody involved is properly trained. Because having a veterinarian doesn't mean that it's a veterinarian that's gonna be able to do a forensic exam. Or an exam that, that it, you know, that pro provide a report or a consultation that is going to be adequate for legal, for the legal system. You can have a general practitioner that can definitely do an examination, but would they be able to discuss in forensic terms what the neglect for cruelty is or are they even willing to do so? Right. So because so many of my peers don't wanna get involved in anything that has to do with criminal or neglect cases because they don't wanna go to court. Right. Uh, and I understand that fear, but. And, and putting together a case like this that has to be taken into consideration. It doesn't matter. You have a vet, it doesn't matter how you have a technician. It doesn't matter that you have volunteers. Are they the correct people for that kind of case? Right?

No, a hundred percent. And that's why also we have really well laid out, you know, um, I c s and incident action plan, all this documentation that outlines people's roles, who reports to who, who's doing what. Um, and so that we know, um, You know who to go to when something does fall apart, and you've got the right people in every one of those positions so that we all know how to function and flow and work together effectively on that day. Because yes, you can have, you know, 50 people just come on out, but if you don't have some level of organization and plan, uh, for the, how those people are going to function and the roles that they're going to play, it turns into a logistical nightmare, uh, with just 10 people doing the same thing at once and, and things just aren't getting done efficiently. So, um, yeah, you make a really valid point.

Yeah. And then getting everything put together properly for the prosecutor, because we are really lucky in Ohio that we have an animal law prosecutor. So we have somebody that can go to any county and prosecute animal cases, and they are familiar with animal cases, but they're not involved in every animal case that that happens. And I have met prosecutors that are not familiar enough with animal law. Or that do not see the importance of prosecuting animal cases, you know, which becomes a really big problem. They'll say, well, we already have all these other charges against them, so we are not gonna prosecute for the animal cases because kind of like, who cares? And they don't understand the importance of it. Um, and also we have people that blame the prosecutors for not getting a tougher sentence. However, if we do not give them all the tools mm-hmm. Then they may not have, they may not have a strong case and they may not wanna take a case because they don't think that they can win. And they don't think that they can win because they don't have everything that, that is necessary. So we have to work with, with the prosecutors. How, how, how is your work in, in these cases with prosecutors? How, like, how are they involved? How do you prepare them? How do you get information back and forth?

I mean, at some point there's some type of contact that we'll have with them. Usually I'm working with the investigator themselves. We have worked directly with like a district attorney's office first. Mm-hmm. But that doesn't happen too often. That's a really passionate, you know, district attorney's office that's going above and beyond. Um, but usually I'm working with the investigator and then at some point I need to know that their prosecutor's on board and supportive. And if they're not, can I support and offer resources, guidance, any type of assistance. Um, this could be a prosecutor that just doesn't know. They don't know how to ask for the help and who to get that from. So we've had some receptive prosecutors like, Hey, if I connect you with another prosecutor, you can talk prosecutor with each other, or I can, you know, guide them through something as well. Um, you also get the prosecutors that flat out are not interested, just like you said. And, and we've been talking about, you know, we know. Everyone's caseload is heavy. It doesn't matter what job you're really doing anymore, we're all busy. Um, but I do see, you know, some of these prosecutors I've been working with recently that are covering multiple counties, and I, I don't know how they're doing it. I really don't. And so it's, if we can help l to lighten their load, but as long as I'll take this case on, how, how can we help, you know, um, give them what they need to take the next step of the case. Um, once we know they're on board, then, you know, it's, it's kind of, um, I mean, it's definitely great. I have worked in the great state of Ohio, uh, with, you know, as, uh, one of your attorneys that, that handles the cases. And, you know, they're obviously really well versed. So that's another thing to have a leg on, leg up on is, is the fact that you've done an animal case before. Um, but I think if a lot of these prosecutors haven't, it's nice to connect them with someone who has, or even more simply give them some case law to reference. Like, look, this has been done before and they won and they, it was, they the case was successful. Um, because it's a risk, you know, we know it's a risk for the prosecutors and they're putting their name on this. So they're saying by putting their name on it, that it is a, a solid case, um, that they don't have, you know, real concerns about losing. So, That's risky for a prosecutor. Um, and again, this is a unique situation for them when they're used to dealing with, uh, other human crimes instead. And then we bring them, you know, a hundred sick feral dying cats and they're like, what is what, why, what, what, what, what do you, what's cost of care? Like, what do, what do you mean? And so, um, but most of the time we do work with pretty decent prosecutors that are really interested in taking the case on. Um, but mostly just, they're just busy. They're so overworked right now. Um, the ones where we have, we, we hit a wall with sometimes that happens and sometimes we don't have an answer for it. And unfortunately, Sometimes the case has stopped there. Uh, there are other avenues. We certainly can try to help support and assist the investigator if they still wanna push it through. But we are limited too, and we don't have enforcement authority. So we just, we try our best with that. Trying to build a positive relationship with them and explaining what it is we do. Cuz sometimes there's still mixed messages exactly about what we do as an organization and a team. Um, but yeah, people are going to, if they haven't already find somebody that just, whether it be a prosecutor or someone from law enforcement that just doesn't wanna take it that far for whatever reason. And you can push and push and push, um, Still where we tell people, if you see something, say something like keep being a voice. Right? Sounds cheesy. It's very cliche, but it's, you know, if, if people stop talking about it, then people think that it's stopped happening and it's gone away and it's not a problem. So, um, those situations are out there and I definitely feel for a lot of those offices working with, um, you know, prosecutors or whomever that the case just doesn't go where it should go.

Yeah. Understanding the fact that some of these animal crimes, again, are involved with some human crimes, they, you know, if you, you can prosecute, uh, for, for instance, an animal sexual offender today, and then you're pro potentially preventing that person from being able to assault the person or, you know, like at least put 'em on the radar to know that something may happen. Uh, people that, that abuse children, uh, it, it all, it's all linked together. That's why there is the link. Yeah. So.

I like to, uh, um, recently, I think, and, and you would probably know some things off the top of your head about it. The, I like the research that's, that's getting done on different topics to support and help kind of. Motivate and encourage either an investigator or a prosecutor because now you have data, you have fact, you have proof, you have evidence of issues. So, you know, when you speak to animal sexual offenses and there's, uh, Ms. Mgeni Edwards who did a lot of research and compiled a lot of data over X amount of time, so that, you know, I've, I've presented some of her information to law enforcement when they're, when they're kind of dusting off a bestiality case going, you know, this is kind of almost a joke. Um, and besides us saying, well, there's a link and you're probably gonna find some child pornography or other crime going on, and you don't a hundred percent have them hooked at that point. They want evidence. They want to see that. And so I, I appreciate a lot of the recent research over the last couple of years. It's really been done to, to help. And I don't know that. They know how helpful it is. But it, it really, um, goes to show, especially with a prosecutor, I will say, cause I've done that a few times where they're like, oh my gosh. Like we can say whatever we want to them, but when they've read it and it's published and it's, you know, collected over X amount of time and those numbers are terrifying, um, that really hits home for them. And they see the importance because guess what? They are in court prosecuting those human sexual offenders. And so then they see that link and they're like, wow, if I trace these people back, there's a lot of, you know, evidence that parallels with this. So the research has been, um, I don't get to read a ton of it. I'd like to read more than I do, but when I see different articles that I try to come back to later, there's a lot of great research that's being done out there right now. And I think it's fantastic that there is the space for this to be done. Um, especially during the peak of covid, if, if you will, The information that was collected has, has been extraordinary shocking, but, yeah. Well,

and with cases like domestic violence that mm-hmm. A veterinarian, uh, may be the first one to see the case, and you recognize that the animal is being abused, and then potentially by, by reviewing that and evaluating that, you're going to be able to, to help a victim. Um, I know that, uh, a few weeks ago, Ohio Animal Advocates founder, Vicki Diesner, was on, on an episode and she talked about the fact that this man was abusing his wife and he killed the family dog. Right. And he, and he murdered it in a really grotesque manner and hung it in their front yard so that they would see it and they would remember what they did, and they would feel bad about it as if it was their fault. Well, if somebody had done something at that point, Then, uh, time later, he actually kidnapped her and, uh, and abused her and tried to murder her. Right? So we do something about that dog to begin with and take it seriously. We keep that lady from having to go through, through all that trauma and all that trouble. And she, luckily she survived, but she's very lucky to, to have survived. Yeah. Uh, so, how many missed opportunities along the way to help not only the animals, but again, to help the person? I mean, it is, it is a, it is a full circle problem and we kind of have to, to work together to help. Everybody involved and, and do better as a society.

Yeah. And the, um, I mean, the more too that agencies are taking on these large scale cases, the more data you're collecting there so that when they're successfully prosecuted, like I was saying before, you can present, you know, an, another officer in your state might be able to use your case now and say, look what we did and this is, and, and even connect with each other. We had, um, we did a case in Kentucky a couple years back at a, at a, a pet store, and that police chief who, you know, was so passionate about shutting that operation down was contacted by other law enforcement. Like, what did you do? Like, how, how. How do you do these things? It's an animal case. Like I don't, I don't want to do that. I don't know how to do that. Um, and, and so they, you learn from each other and he could provide that direct guidance that inspired them to, to take something else on themselves that may never have happened, but now that they know someone else has done it, that they can trust, they can go to and seek out. Um, which is why it's fantastic when agencies do have that in them to move forward and take that next step. And yeah, I'm not gonna lie, they can be messy cases, they can be heavy cases. You know, you think it's clean and perfect, and like we said, nothing goes to plan. Mm-hmm. And you end up holding animals longer than necessary. Your resources start to run out. Gosh, you know what? Whole other episode ain't gonna be started on compassion fatigue and burnout with shock and stuff across the country. But, you know, there's, there's so much to consider, uh, that could fall apart with a large scale case that we know it's nerve-wracking for these organizations. Um, and, and why the more we're all talking about it together, the more, more we're all working together and working on things, um, the better. So that next time another agency wants to do it, they can look back at you and go, all right, they did it. Let's find out how they did it and let's try it and give it a shot.

so we discussed the, the whole planning part. So then we are there the day of. So what does it take to actually run the day? Uh, this seizure warrant everything for a large scale case.

A lot of coffee. Yes,

actually, yes. Amen.

Amen. Because then there's no restroom on scene and everyone's like, what do we, great. Um, so limit coffee intake. Uh, but, you know, yeah. It's, it's, uh, all hands on deck. It's, um, you know, it's come down to this, we ev all the pre-planning and, and, uh, multiple agencies working together. And we will have a brief, usually with law enforcement, um, to go over things, go over roles, go over their tactical, uh, plan as well. Because sometimes, unfortunately, these people may not be safe enough, and need to be, taken into custody as well. So what their tactical plan looks like and safety plan looks like. Safety's huge. A lot of these residences and properties are, extremely unsafe for, with different hazards and things like that. So once law enforcement has officially served the warrant, which again, we advise, and when we do it, we do it early in the morning. you do not wanna serve a warrant at like three o'clock in the afternoon to seize 200 animals. It's gonna take forever to process. Uh, you lose daylight and that really sucks. so we will, you know, law enforcement will serve the search warrant, and then essentially we will create a, a master team. And our master team, which you are usually a part of, you know, we have our case lead, we have a safety officer, we have our chief lead veterinarian that we can walk through with the crime scene virtually untouched. And we look at everything as it lies. And we start documenting. We have a photographer, someone doing video and mapping the property, to see where everything is, what does it look like, how bad is it, a rough population count too. And then for, for you, you know, it's triaging. Who do we have, who, who's the worst of their worst animals and worst conditions that need to be, you know, examined and exited immediately and taken to emergency care. other medical concerns, unique concerns that you have, that you have to identify. And then we have to, after that walkthrough is done, come back together to determine how we will assign our field teams with, you know, going into different areas of the property and how, what it'll look like for them, starting to document. So photograph, uh, and Id these animals as we remove them from these areas. And, you know, we, we do before and after photos. So we will do our entry photos first to show everything untouched, and then we even do exit photos so that when everything has been removed, that we will go through and take photos of what it looks like, because we know challenges are presented later on and people can question, oh, you hurt this animal, you broke its leg, you shot it, you, you know, starved it, whatever the excuse might be. So that way we've completely documented a scene to present to the prosecutor later and, and they can look at it like they were almost there. If they're not actually able to come out on scene with you, sometimes prosecutors will actually wanna come and check things out, which we encourage. but yeah, seizure day is, is long and we have pending however many animals we're taking, how many vets are we having? How many vets can you get? You might be in a town where there's one veterinarian and you have a large animal, like a livestock case, and there's a small animal vet that maybe the last time they dealt with a horse was back in college. And so, you know, you wanna look at your resources that you've plant planted as a part of your pre-planning, but the vet stations are just so important with keeping the operation running smooth all day. You know, you have your field teams handling and bringing the dogs or animals for assessment, and then that next step is the, the vet team, assessing them to determine where they're going, what's happening, how much of a priority is their medical condition. what does your transport look like? You know, like you've got the animals, you've got them loaded, you've got them in crates, but how are they getting to your temp shelter? And so we've had, you know, some situations where people hadn't planned. They've, they've got a case with, you know, 60 horses, but they don't know anybody with trailers. Or equine vets that are really imperative to, an integral, with helping or if you can't get, you know, the right veterinarian, could somebody else help like someone else with industry knowledge, faria, things like that. but it is a busy, busy day because every plan changes and you just have to go with the flow. but once all the animals are documented, secured, and safe, then we're. You know, hopefully doing that all before sundown. However, that doesn't always happen and we've been working through the hours of the night. Some situations you have to keep the search warrant open and have an officer stay on scene and you might have to return the next day if everything wasn't documented properly or the animals, you didn't have enough time to remove them. you really wanna consider safety. I had, a case in, I think it was Michigan, and they worked through the hours of the night, and I just, I think that's really hard on your team when you're dealing with so many different animals, limited to no daylight. People are exhausted. So really thinking about what that would look like operationally with, you know, when you would call a stop to the night if needed. Um, but otherwise getting all the animals safe and secure to your temp shelter, unloading them. We forget about that. Sometimes we've loaded them up and it's like, oh my gosh, we haven't even gotten back to the shelter yet, and we've still gotta unload everybody. Um, the behind the scenes people of setting up all the, the temp shelter and the warm bed at night for the animals to come home to. So there's so much planning and it sometimes it looks easy to others, but when you really know what b behind the scenes, what it looks like, it's intimidating. But if you wanna do it right, you gotta do it right. So there, there's just a lot going on. That's in a nutshell. I mean, you've been there on days with us too, seeing how much goes into the actual seizure day. but remembering too that we're just careful with how we're handling things. Chain of custody is really important for the criminal case too. So we've got, everything is logged and documented. the rounds of, vet assessment that they receive too. You know, we will provide the initial triage on day of seizure, but in the coming days, not too long, but in the coming two or three days when they're gonna get their full exams of something thorough, that's documented and it's more intense, and that way it, it outlines deeper issues. It may not have been acknowledged, uh, during their triage. Uh, because you do have to, you really have to think about if you're taking 200 animals and you have one veterinarian that's going to take time and you can't rush that. And you don't want to rush that cuz then you'll miss things. So, takes a lot of time, a lot of patience and just Yeah. Go with the flow mentality of just roll with it as it comes.

Yeah. I did a presentation on animals as evidence because of the importance of treating them as evidence. You know, we walk into, into a house and there's an animal that is clearly in distress and everybody like the, the emotional part mm-hmm. Wants to just grab that animal and take 'em out and run away. And you can't do that. No. Right. You have to, it, it, yeah. It just, it sucks that you have to wait, but then you also have to think about the fact of how long has this animal been in this distress? So we wanna help 'em as soon as possible. But is waiting an extra few minutes going to make a big difference in the grand scheme of things? No. And it's more important to document it. And then the importance of documenting thing is on scene. Like for instance, if the animals are covered in fleas and you're going to treat them for fleas, before you take 'em to the shelter, you have to do a proper examination. Because by the time, if you wait to do the examination, when you get to the shelter, there's no more flees. Right? Because we already treat them. So how are we going to charge somebody with neglect because the animals are covered in flees if we don't have that evidence on the animal. Mm-hmm. So we have to have the, the exam, the, the pictures as thorough as possible, but efficient also. Right? That's where the difference between doing a forensic exam and doing a general practitioner. We don't have half an hour for every animal. We have to get through them head to toe. Really quick, but efficiently. And that's why there are so many people involved in each vet station, right? Because we have the vet, like, I mean, not that anybody wants me writing anything down, but I don't have the time to write something down. We need somebody that is trained to set that I can just spit out information and they can just do that. We have somebody that's doing the pictures, like everybody has a job to do so that everything can be done as quickly and efficiently as possible. And then understanding your limitations with each patient. You take an animal and it's really aggressive, okay, well what can we do with what we have? Right? So we still need to document it. We still need to do whatever we can do, but we may not be able to do everything that we can. So we need to assess safety. Uh, we don't think about those things in safety, and then we don't think about the simple parts of safety as people getting dehydrated or getting exhausted, right? So, Like

we have to another, our safety officer on scene, they keep us in check. Yes. And they keep us typing, make sure we've had at least some kind of snack because yeah, what good are we if we fall apart and Yeah,

exactly. Cause we don't think about it. Right. And I've been in scenes where somebody has just passed out from heat exhaustion and you don't know it until it's too late because you keep fighting and you're like, oh, I'll be okay for another five minutes. I'll be okay for another 10 minutes. And you have no idea what your body's going through. So having that safety officer being like your mom coming around and being like, have you eaten? Did you drink some water? Have you gone potty? And you get annoyed and like, I get annoyed. I'm like, I'm a, I'm an adult. I'm a grown ass human being like, you don't need to tell me to go to the bathroom. No, no. But it's because, right. Because I'm so involved in what I'm doing that I'm not thinking about everything else. We don't think about simple things as tripping hazards. Right. We're going to go somewhere and there are stairs that are not okay, and we don't think about it, but you have a safety officer saying, Hey, you cannot do that because you may fall and break your leg. And it's not just about how that affects you as a person. How does that affect everything? If I do something stupid, because I don't care what happens to me, but I fall and break my leg, what is that gonna do to the investigation? It's going to stop everything. It's going to create a problem. It's going to take me out of being able to help everybody else.

It's no, it's an, it's a really important point to mention because I, I trip over air, like you'll see there's nothing around me, but I'll find a way and no, it is a great, person to have on scene it to, to to mom. Mamas essentially. Yeah. We need it. And we definitely, now that we, we have the safety officer position, like officially versus just trying to watch every out for everybody. Right. yeah, I think we see the, the, the need that we've needed it now we, we understand Yes. And the significance of their role too.

So then we have the animals and we've taken them to the shelter and then we have done our intake evaluation and done and done things to them to make sure that they're safe. So then where do we go from there?

So first of all, it's the ongoing care for the animals that you've already planned. Like what does that look like? You've got the next, hopefully the next few weeks planned out for appropriate staff, ongoing vet care. Is a vet coming out to your shelter or, or temp shelter? What does that look like? the documentation of the ongoing vet care that's provided as well because you'll find more medical problems as the days come. You may very well lose some animals. you know, a recent case that we both assisted with was we, we saw probably like percentage wise, some of the most significant losses out of a smaller population, but unexpected just how, horrific their medical issues were that they had to be euthanized. so making sure you're staying on top of documentation. But then, so for me, I'm working with that investigator and the prosecutor to stay on them and remind them. So I become the mom of, Hey, now that you've seized the animals, thank you. have you filed your petition for cost of care? Have you filed this? Have you considered what charges are going to look like? and then if it's a case that HSUS is assisting with, we are putting this all together for them in an evidence binder. So we've got everything that we can just hand to them. We also offer, we help with writing and compiling a charging recommendation document. So now that all these animals have been fully examined, and, anything else that needed to come about in following days that maybe was found through X-rays, other labs that were run and things like that, what can we circle back to looking at animal one through 200? Who with their condition could be considered for as a felony charge, a misdemeanor charge, no charge. Um, you don't wanna get too charge happy and like everybody gets a felony. Um, but you wanna have that conversation, with law enforcement and the prosecutor's office of like, from this, what do we think is fair and reasonable to charge this person with? And, often they might need guidance with that cuz again, it's animal crimes case that they're not used to, but we're pretty fair and reasonable with when we're, you know, deducing that information and, coming up with those recommendations. But evidence collection, all your witness statements, uh, veterinary statements are really important. So you'll have a vet come out, do all the things, document you know, the animal's conditions. But you know what's real nice at the end of it all is having a vet's statement. To say here's my overall expert opinion on the whole day, the conditions, um, the environmental conditions versus the physical conditions and why you think this is so poor. how this could have been prevented. It's, it's vet's opportunity to give their, their personal but professional opinion on something. So putting all this information together, and as I said, we put it in a nice big old evidence binder, makes it so much easier and you're more likely to keep, not keep their interest, but just when you're helping each other, it just takes that load off of them. but it makes sense and you've got all the evidence right in front of you to, to show why. so what do we say? Collecting evidence, the ongoing care of the animals and, you know, thinking about what charges would look like, because the thing is you just don't want to have all this effort. And then it goes stale and gets swept under the rug by somebody somewhere. And we've seen that happen too, with fantastic cases. And you follow up like whatever happened and it's, they haven't filed the charges yet and it's like, case was done six months ago. What do you mean it hasn't been, or the hearing was never requested. And that agency loses its opportunity to request the cost of care. And, you know, again, that usually I think for me is one of the bigger things that falls under the rug is, is agencies not filing for cost of care in time cuz they don't know, or they know that it needed to be done, but they didn't know it needed to be done in this certain amount of time. It can be, you know, as soon as seizure, seven to 10 days from seizure, 21 days from seizure. Depends on each state and the laws. And if you have a cost of care law and if you're in one of those poor states, it doesn't, my heart aches and bleeds for you because, you know, as we know they are. Uh, I'm gonna pick on Kentucky. I love Kentucky. Um, but they don't have a cost of care law, so they're holding till the case goes through to trial, which can be, there's one county that did a puppy mill. They were holding the dogs for over two years. Those puppies grew up into adults that have been locked in a shelter. Um, you know, not saying that's a bad thing, but compared to a home environment mm-hmm. Those puppies were raised in, um, unfortunately because it was a small rural shelter, just didn't have access to resources. And a lot of them were a kennel, crazy and had other issues. And, you know, it, it at that point makes, uh, a shelter wanna give up on that. Like, why are we, they've invested all these resources they have to turn away their community. So yeah, staying on top of all your court documents, making sure things are filed and requested on time. And if you don't know, ask, ask somebody. Um, that might, because we've seen cases lost to issues like that.

And people don't understand, that's where the rushing to get something done can be a problem. Right? Because we're taking the animals for, um, a bad situation and putting them in an impossible situation that they, you know, it's, it is not the fault of the shelter because they don't have the resources, but then they can't do anything about it. And then, and then what happens to these animals? The animals kind of continue to suffer. Mm-hmm. So, yes, they're not in that, in that puppy mill situation, but where they're at is better, but it's not what should be. Um, yeah. And

it's what we're, you know, the promise that we are giving them by getting involved in that case, in that situation, we're not fulfilling our promise. Um, I worked with, uh, shelter down south, uh, about two years ago, and, you know, it was great. Their sheriff's office went out and executed this warrant, seized almost a hundred dogs. They didn't tell the shelter at all. They just showed up. All the deputies just, I guess like literally just packed dogs into their car. And the shelter director called me just like, Mid stroke of like, I don't, I don't know what to do here. And, and she would, and that I, I myself was just flabbergasted cuz I, I don't know what, what do you do? And she did her best. She kept her, like the staff stayed behind. But that, that missing link in the communication, it's, it's imperative that you are all talking with each other, um, again to make sure that there is a successful outcome. So from the animal shelter to law enforcement, to your prosecutor, there's this pyramid and, and everyone needs to stay in contact and communication and continual cuz uh, for some situations I've actually recommended that they set up either weekly calls to do check-ins. Um, and that can be helpful for the prosecutor too, just to know how his evidence is doing and the shelter's able to communicate any concerns, that may not otherwise be really. Taken seriously. When we especially start to talk about behavior issues that happens when these animals are kenneled for so long and they're in that type of environment, then we start to switch into different concerns and issues. So something they just may not consider, just like, just hold the dogs. Just hold the animals. You are the shelter. Just take them. It's your responsibility. Now I'm out. It's like, no, no. Right? It's

not like a black hole ready to receive an unlimited number of animals. There's like a certain number of, of kennels that they have and also the, the support that the shelter has. It's kind of like going to a restaurant. People see a hundred tables and they're complaining because, well, all those 50 tables are empty. Why don't they sit me because they only have two waiters. So they can't take care of that whole side of the restaurant. It's the same thing. At a shelter, you may have 500 kennels, but if you only have two employees, you can only take in the animals that those two employees can take care of. Right. So we have to, to understand what capacity means. Capacity is not number of cages. Capacity involves a lot of different stuff. Um, so how does the process of surrender works? Because sometimes it makes it easy if the person just gives up ownership of the animals and then it allows you to, to proceed with placement. But sometimes that doesn't happen. And I know it varies in states. Like I know that in, in Ohio, from what I understand, at 10 days do you have a court or a court date to assess surrender? So how does that process of overall work and what are the, the benefits

of it? I mean, the surrenders preferred, you know, we, I, I, I'll speak for us. You know, we wanna make sure like nothing's coerced. This is a conversation that needs to be had casually, comfortably of, Hey, you know, looking at this right now in this situation, I, you know, in the best interest of the animals, would you be interested in surrendering ownership? That way we're able to do A, B, and C, get them out, uh, adopt them out, get them, you know, more medical care, et cetera. Um, you think of, You know, a pregnant mother, right? Do we want her giving birth in a shelter environment? Would we like her to give birth, you know, at a rescues home, uh, in a home environment that's a lot more calm. So trying to have that conversation with them and then also ensuring that your department has the appropriate document. So good surrender form that contains verbiage. Cuz I can, I can tell you I've had, even when I was an officer, multiple people turn around after they've signed and surrendered and said, you coerced me, you forced me into that, and then wanna fight back to get custody. So making sure the language in your surrender form is strong and sufficient so that just in case any of that happens, you're all protected and covered. Um, but surrender's a per preferred method so that we can get 'em out. And that way they don't stay a constant burden on the local shelter. Keep in mind too, you're not just talking about a county or a municipal shelter that's, you know, funded by taxpayers. You go a humane society, you're talking a nonprofit organization that's working solely off donations. They can bankrupt themselves with these types of large scale cases. And, um, people don't think about that cuz you're not always privy and allowed to advertise, fundraise, talk about, you know, it's, it's strategic and it's planned on what is allowed to be shared on those cases. So if they don't get enough attention for that case to fundraise, then how are they making the funds back to support everything they're gonna have to pay for these animals for x amount of time while they hold them. So, again, you want them out so that, that way you could do transports right to other neighboring, uh, counties, shelters, other states that maybe you have an MAA or MOU with so that you can work together when you're in need. And you have this agreement of like, Hey, we're empty up here in the northeast, you know, bring us, bring us, you know, 30 cats or what have you. But yeah, having to hold onto them is, is, is hard and pending your state and the laws, how long you have to hold onto them for, you know, we fall for stuff when it's like, oh, 30 days it says so right there. Well, the court system can override us sometimes and we might be forced to hold them even longer for whatever reason comes up. Right? Always something else that, again, plan for A, B, C, D, E, F, G, um, and you know, if we have to hold them even longer again, the resources that are have to be invested into that especially when you're talking about anything pregnant and large animals. I mean, you are looking at heavy costs there, right? There's no such thing as a free horse. And so when we take these guys in, just the food alone, The, the hoof care and everything like that, it just, it adds up and it adds up so quickly. Uh, sometimes those resources are also hard to find, right? If they're for specialty animals or if there's a shortage in the area. I remember, you know, we've looked for dog crates and, and we couldn't find any of the, you know, places that sell dog crates within a two three hour radius that had any, and we needed some extras. And so you've really gotta think about, you know, how long w could you potentially have to plan for, you know, 50 bales of hay a day or whatever you, you, you need to, to keep the animals fed. And will those resources al also always be available to you? Um, so yeah, surrender is definitely the preferr method, a hundred percent. But again, exercising that caution to not force. I've heard a few agencies or you know, individuals that will go right to that offender and be like, look, this could all go away if you just sign, sign the animals over now. And it's like, no, no, that's coercion. You can't barter, you cannot barter. That's actually legal. But you cannot barter and make a promise that's not your promise to make as an investigator, law enforcement official. and one that we obviously don't support either. We're going into this with the understanding that regardless there's going to be something criminal that comes out of this. so yeah, the preference is definitely surrender.

One last thing that I wanna touch on is, would be like the fact of be being objective when we approach cases, right? Because there's so much emotion and you cannot approach, I'm not saying we're not gonna care about what we're seeing and we're not gonna have judgment, but we need to save those judgements for behind closed doors and to, for our personal time. When we are assessing these things, we need to look at it objectively. We cannot go into a case judging the person because we don't know what the, what the case about what brought 'em into it. And the defense attorneys can use subjective comments against you because they can say, well, you're biased. You are just, you, you just care about the animals because you feel bad for them. So then you are exaggerating things or you are, you know, saying things, you wanna remain objective about the whole thing and not share things that you're not allowed to share. Mm-hmm. Because then that can be another huge problem. Social media. Yeah. I, I work with quite a few groups that they rescue an animal and immediately they're just sharing everything. Uh, they're sharing pictures, they're sharing the story, and they're sharing their emotional issues, uh, or their emotional views on it. Mm-hmm. And you know, they're, they may be doing it to get awareness or they may be doing it to raise funds because now they're gonna have this expense, but they don't understand how all of that can actually harm the case.

Bless you for bringing that up. Um, it's, That is something for me too and I've mentioned and a few other things I've spoken on. Um, yeah, social media, keep it away. And it is the most detrimental thing ahead of seizure that you could share. Talk about you are doing no one favors. you are compromising a criminal investigation and ultimately it's, you're not always gonna know. I've seen so many complainants that they rush out there and they post it on social media cuz they're like, you know, police didn't work fast enough, or They're not doing anything. No, it's, you are not privy to know that information. Right. You're not gonna report back to you that they're working on this secret undercover investigation that's, you know, that that's gonna culminate in the seizure of all those animals that they're gonna save. And now you go out and post this days before then we're gonna execute a search warrant. So, you know, we strongly, strongly ask people, if you really care about those situations, please let them do their job. That these things do not happen overnight. You don't just go in and shut the puppy mill down. You don't just go in and shut the hoarder down tomorrow. It takes time. And even if that timeframe isn't something that you're okay with, that's too bad If you want this done right, let the professional investigators investigate and do their job. And I've seen so many cases lost, uh, and, and sometimes it's been accidental and they were well-intentioned and didn't know. And sometimes I've seen it done blatantly that you knew and you still went and did this and which is really unfortunate, but, For most people that just don't understand. Yeah. It completely compromises things and you have no clue what's being done. It's that whole picture of like the iceberg and then how deep it really goes. Mm-hmm. You don't know the behind the scenes communications and everything that's gonna come about for this. So wait and, and it can take a long time. We've had cases, even when I was an officer, I had a career case that W was with me from when I was with my F T O and I didn't execute my first search warrant until I like the month before I was leaving to come to H S U S. It took that long. Some of them happen. We don't want all of them to happen and take that long, but sometimes they just do. We just, and there's a reason, right. There's usually a reason why it's taken that long. We have to build enough evidence. There's not enough something's missing. We don't have the right person. There might be a different district attorney in office, there might be a different prosecutor, things that are out of our control. Um, social media can certainly be advantageous. So like I was just talking about with the nonprofits that need to raise those funds, but that communication also needs to be had with law enforcement. When those seizures are done, hey, what can we share? What can we promote and how? Right. Because last thing you wanna see is, like you said, that's what made me like Twitch was when you see evidence photos up on Facebook and it's like, no, you did not. You did not. Right. Um, and you know, it's a real shame, but, uh, again, communicating first ahead of time. So if you, you are a shelter or organization that's gonna be involved in removing those animals, talk to someone first, law enforcement, prosecutor, what can we share? We need to promote, you know, for our, and sometimes it's been, um, Something as simple as inviting media back to the temp shelter, back to the shelter, uh, to look around the, you know, shelter that the animals are housed at. Or can we put in a video or photos of some of the ones that, again, you get confirmation from the law enforcement and prosecutor to share, you know, that you've taken after seizures. So they're not from the scene, they're from the shelter, um, still depicting the bad condition that they're in, but um, not having to use an actual evidence photo. That was, I'm so appreciate you for bringing that up too, cuz I've, uh, we've, we've lost a few cases that way, sadly.

Yeah. You know, the, the people that I work with, they're very passionate about animals. And whenever you guys, for instance, call me for a case, I have to block my schedule. I have to change my schedule so they know that something's up, but they by now know, I tell 'em I'm going on a super secret mission. I don't know where. So I'll let you know when I get there. And they, and they understand and it's kind of, it's kind of exciting and they just can't wait to know what's going on. But it's the understanding that one person leaking something can just destroy everything. And then once the case happens, like the only things that I share are the things that like you guys share through your press release so that I know that I'm not sharing something that is potentially damaging because how horrible to spend all this time and effort and money and then one post on social media, tear it all down. I mean, it's just not worth it.

I've, um, I did have to explain that once and, and I was glad that it was raised cuz people were like, well you are out there sharing this. And it's like, well here have this understanding though. Part of our pre-planning and having conversations with the, let's say a sheriff's office and the prosecutor's office is, we engage in an M O U with them. And that memorandum of understanding is an agreement to say here, H S U S, this is everything we as the Sheriff's Office need from you. And we have this discussion going back and forth with powers that be, that review all these documents from a legal standpoint. And they review everything. And in it though, we do outline because we are a nonprofit, the need to fundraise so that we can be out there to support these agencies to do these cases. So we have it in writing, we've had these conversations. We have our P I O or our media manager connect with the local PIO o or media managers so that all of their talking points are on point and planned that the press releases, the verbiage in them is safe and clean, that that won't compromise anything. And that essentially all of the footage and everything, the press releases that we put out are reviewed by law enforcement and or the prosecutor's office before they go out. Somebody has to look and approve the things. So we keep it clean. Last thing we want to do especially is compromise anything. So, uh, there is that, uh, planning that people don't think about, um, that goes into that. And if you're not having those conversations, you should be having those conversations.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for sharing all this information. I think that it's been really, really helpful in kind of going through the whole process and to understand what the, the different parts that are involved in making the whole thing work mm-hmm. As well as the things that can make it go wrong. Um, and in general, if people need help or assistance, how do they get a hold of your team to know if it's something that you guys would be

involved with? Yeah, I mean, you can reach out to us. We have, um, like a lot of forms online. Um, you can email animalcruelty@humanesociety.org. You can email me, soliver@humanesociety.org. Uh, contact Dr. G and she will find a way to connect us. Um, how I've got the one from, um, end of last year was thru you. So, um, yeah, there's a variety of different ways, but essentially emailing, And yeah, Dr. G is probably you, you're the best link at this point cuz everyone knows how to get ahold of you and message you. Uh, even through social media just to reach out, we usually, we have like a state director for most of the states, like 30, 35 of them. So you could email your state's name @humanesociety.org. But either way, if you go online, you'll find something that'll connect you to us. And yeah, we are definitely be happy to help because there's so many cases that we know these, these folks are walking away from if they're walking away because they just don't have the resources. It's like, we wanna know, we're very busy. This, this has probably been our team's busiest year. Uh, and I feel like we say that. Every year, like 2022, like that was the craziest year about lives. And people were just like, you know, requests are, are high, um, and frequent. And so, that's because we know, and you all know that there's that shortage out there for resources. I don't know what the answer is for that right now, but I think as long as we're all working together in some capacity, we're trying and we wanna help. So if everything, if the universe aligns perfectly and we can coordinate something to come out and help, then we're all about it. And sometimes it may not work. Um, But you don't

know until you try. Right? We don't know until we have that

chat. So let's, let's talk about it first and see, you know, what we can do. And there's some, um, investigators I've worked with where I'm like, you know, we don't, you don't have enough, but let's work on it and build it this way. Mm-hmm. And you know, sure enough, they'll come see me in six, 12 months, like, Hey, remember this, and we're right back at it again. So everything like you've said is circumstantial variable. Every case is different. And you, we just, we're just trying to roll with it as best as we can because there's such a need from all these amazing ACOs and humane offices, law enforcement, code enforcement, they're, they're doing code enforcement and animal control. How I, I don't know. But um, yeah, all these people that are just coming together and reaching out, so hopefully we can help in some way. But, you know, I appreciate and, and you know, we couldn't do what we're doing if we didn't have someone like you, Dr. G, cuz you are bloody fantastic. You.

Well, it's easy to work with you guys because you got your stuff together, so it's right. It makes it easy for me and it, I don't know. And I, I've learned so much from, from working with you guys, so I wanna thank you for, for everything, you know? Um, I'm, I'm becoming more of an expert because you guys are making me an expert. Glad

to be about Yeah. We're, we're helping each other, so. Yes.

Right. It's a symbiotic relationship. Yes. There's no parasitism going on. Well, thank you very much and I hope to work with you soon, and I hope to have you back soon to talk about some of the fun cases and to talk about other things like puppy mills. Mm,

yes. Nope. Anytime. Anytime. Thank you for having me.

Awesome. And to our listeners, thank you for listening and thank you for caring.