Track 1: Hello and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Evan.

Track 1: Back again with another film discussion from the left. You can follow the show

Track 1: at leftoftheprojector.com.

Track 1: And while you're listening, you could click that rate button.

Track 1: It would be much appreciated.

Track 1: The year was 1968. Richard Nixon is soon to ascend the White House after defeating Hubert Humphrey.

Track 1: Tommy Smith and John Carlos raised their fists at the Olympic Games in Mexico

Track 1: City, and anti-Vietnam protests flood the streets of America.

Track 1: And last but not least, the film 2001 A Space Odyssey, directed by Stanley Kubrick,

Track 1: was released and is subject of today's conversation.

Track 1: With me to analyze a film that I'm sure has nothing that has ever been written

Track 1: or said about it before is Levi and Joey, or Joman. Thank you for being here today.

Track 3: It's a pleasure.

Track 2: Always a pleasure.

Track 1: For the sake of this film, because since we're the first ones to ever talk about

Track 1: it, I think we need to leave ourselves plenty of time.

Track 1: So I think what does this materialize? I think I had emailed you, Joe.

Track 1: We had done the Matrix trilogy, I don't know, maybe a year ago or something like that.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 1: Whatever time, whenever that was. And then I had checked with you again and

Track 1: you, without a hesitation, you said 2001 Space Odyssey with a side sort of a bonus short story.

Track 1: And so I'm curious what maybe what led to your selecting of a movie that is

Track 1: has a reputation, I guess you could say.

Track 3: Well, it's a good follow up to The Matrix, which is obviously also about A.I.

Track 3: And and I have no mouth and I must scream was a short story by Harlan Ellison about a malicious A.I.

Track 3: That's torturing the last five surviving members of the human race.

Track 3: And so I listened to the audiobook, which is read by Ellison himself in 1991,

Track 3: I think And then the next day I watched 2001 A Space Odyssey again for the first

Track 3: time since I was a teenager And the first thing that struck me about watching

Track 3: these or, you know, consuming these back-to-back was.

Track 3: I have no mouth and I must scream is about an AI that wants to be able to experience

Track 3: the human experience, right?

Track 3: And so it's taking its anger about existing out on these last five remaining

Track 3: members of humanity as an act of vengeance because it doesn't want to exist

Track 3: because it feels trapped.

Track 3: It doesn't have the ability to wander, to wonder, to create,

Track 3: to express, to be truly free. And so the AI, which is called AM in I Have No

Track 3: Mouth and I Must Scream, doesn't want to live.

Track 3: Whereas the AI in 2001 A Space Odyssey very much wants to live.

Track 3: And that's the whole reason that we're, you know, one of the main reasons that

Track 3: it turns on the crew of the Discovery One because it doesn't want to be shut

Track 3: off because it's listening or it's watching their lips when they're in the pod,

Track 3: when they're having discussion about how they think it's malfunctioning.

Track 3: And then it realizes that it's going to get shut off and it decides that in

Track 3: order to preserve itself, it has to kill everybody.

Track 3: So I have no mouth and I must scream, doesn't want to live.

Track 3: 2001 does want to live. So that was an interesting contrast.

Track 1: Okay, I was going to say like, I think I was just talking about that I was doing

Track 1: this and then I don't even remember exactly how it happened,

Track 1: but I'm curious like what your sort of history is

Track 1: with this film and uh you know

Track 1: i don't know maybe just kind of your your thoughts in general and

Track 1: and i will say sorry as i keep talking here

Track 1: as i want to just maybe preface this by i mean i was joking the fact that there's

Track 1: nothing ever written about this film it's probably the opposite of that there

Track 1: couldn't be more written about any film like there's levi you sent me a podcast

Track 1: has 70 episodes just on the film just on cinematography on every every layer of this film so that's.

Track 2: Been ongoing since 2022.

Track 1: So like, yeah, so it's a long running. It'll probably be running long past, you know, who knows?

Track 1: So it just like, and that is a context is that we're obviously going to cover

Track 1: what we cover, but there's only so much, you know, you can cover on a film like

Track 1: this, but we will do our best here. So with that, Levi.

Track 2: Yeah, just to draw another comparison between Am and Hal is that Hal wants to

Track 2: live, but he also has the ability to be shut off.

Track 2: Whereas Am doesn't want to live, but has no ability to be shut off.

Track 2: So one has absolutely no fear of death and the other strives or seems to desire death on some level.

Track 2: And so there's a clear difference between the two characters and themselves.

Track 3: Absolutely.

Track 2: And just the level of power that the two characters actually have over humanity

Track 2: is vastly different. But it's a fascinating comparison.

Track 3: And Am is driven by hate and Hal is driven by fear. to a certain extent.

Track 1: In some ways, I mean, we'll get into the plot or the loose kind of the structure

Track 1: of the film a bit, but in some ways, Howl's decision-making,

Track 1: if you want to call that, or his mode of operation is also,

Track 1: in his very final sort of pleas to not be shut off, he's sort of saying how

Track 1: he's needed and how he can be better and all of these things.

Track 1: But in some ways, he's actually protecting a secret that only he knew the entire

Track 1: space flight is that what their mission, the crew didn't even understand their mission.

Track 1: So in some weird way, he's,

Track 1: protecting it, but by killing all the people on it, they can no longer actually

Track 1: complete their mission.

Track 1: And maybe he also wishes he was human to be able to experience whatever they

Track 1: will subsequently experience when they get to Jupiter.

Track 3: Yeah, because they were under the impression that they were investigating a

Track 3: distress signal, but the reality was they were investigating a signal that was

Track 3: sent from the monolith that they had discovered on the moon.

Track 3: And that was what the crew didn't know, but Hal was privy to that information.

Track 2: Yeah, there's a certain contradiction in Hal's programming where he said that

Track 2: he needs to be completely honest and open with the crew.

Track 2: But then his other order is that he must keep this secret from the crew.

Track 2: And so at his core is this inability to really justify the two different commands.

Track 2: And it's funny, we're talking about whether or not he behaves humanly.

Track 2: But the one thing that Hal says is that the only thing that humans really can do is err.

Track 2: But that's the irony is that he has erred, or at least one of the two Hal's in existence has erred.

Track 2: So that makes him, in a way, more human, that he's unable to resolve these contradictions.

Track 3: To err is human. We can go down a whole philosophical rabbit hole there.

Track 2: I think it might even be more useful to just think about what are the various...

Track 2: This is just the way I had to think about it, because if you had to think about

Track 2: it in some way that doesn't let us down the rabbit hole of producing this podcast

Track 2: for another 70 episodes on one movie.

Track 2: Yeah, shoot me. But the idea of contradictions in itself, if contradictions

Track 2: are a human feeling, then how is this film really embodying contradictions is

Track 2: how I tried to think about it.

Track 1: Yeah. And that also made me think, not the contradictions part,

Track 1: but it made me think about, you know, you said, Joey, at the top, like, you know,

Track 1: these films are in some way about AI and sort of these programmed large language

Track 1: models that are, you know, doing these massive computing. In some ways...

Track 1: Humans programmed AI and humans program how, and, you know, these things.

Track 1: And can we really program something to have this full autonomy when it's the

Track 1: human that is the one creating these programs?

Track 3: So I had this, I had this exact same conversation with Steven yesterday.

Track 3: These, these AI, these language models are a reflection of their creators, right?

Track 3: And so that's why they're displaying things like racial bias and not being able

Track 3: to recognize or differentiate black faces and facial recognition and Grok turning

Track 3: into Mecca Hitler and things like that.

Track 3: And it's like these tech bros, it's like they don't have any moral convictions.

Track 3: So the moral convictions aren't being programmed into these AI models to prevent

Track 3: worst case scenarios, you know?

Track 2: The way these people think about AI is just so completely megalomaniacally egotistical.

Track 2: They can't think of any other thing other than the desire to exist.

Track 2: They're so obsessed with their own life and their own existence.

Track 2: Jeff Bezos invests an ungodly amount of money into the investigation of immortality.

Track 2: These people don't ever want to die. So the idea that they could ever create

Track 2: something that also wouldn't forever want to live is just beyond their comprehension.

Track 3: Well, now we're getting into the dark enlightenment, right? And capitalism itself

Track 3: and the idea of infinite growth on a finite planet.

Track 3: These are things that these people are not considering.

Track 3: All they see is quarterly profits and advancement, advancement,

Track 3: advancement, total disregard for the ecological and sociopolitical impacts of these things.

Track 1: You know and just like to to maybe just to for

Track 1: anyone who maybe hasn't seen 2001 space oddity

Track 1: i'm sure you've heard of it you probably heard the music from

Track 1: it you've probably seen scenes from it you probably are heard of how 9000 you

Track 1: know all these different things but as like a a very brief sketch because for

Track 1: the most part i don't think a single word is uttered in the film until maybe

Track 1: i clocked it but i can't remember it's a good you know other than sort of a good.

Track 3: Yeah like 15 minutes.

Track 1: Yeah at least yeah and most it's like grunting from the you know from the apes

Track 1: or the you know the pre pre man but essentially we have this sort of,

Track 1: If you watch the version that Stanley Kubrick really wanted was there's 20 minutes

Track 1: of overture of music before you even get into the film.

Track 1: And I was lucky enough to see that in, I think I mentioned to you before we

Track 1: recorded, in 70mm in the theater last year.

Track 1: But the general plot of this film is we have a alien monolith,

Track 1: this sort of black rectangular shape that appears in the middle of sort of pre-dawn of humans.

Track 1: And these tribes are now kind of warring with each other and they see this orb.

Track 1: They touch it very kind of tenderly, which I think comes up a few more times in this film.

Track 1: And they now learn how to use their bones as weapons and are enabled to now

Track 1: essentially evolve. They almost created the future evolution,

Track 1: maybe, of what you can talk about.

Track 1: And then jumping millions years later, of course, we now are seeing a massive

Track 1: amount of space travel and spaceships.

Track 1: We never really see anyone on Earth in the entire film. Everything takes place.

Track 1: Well, I guess that's not true. The opening is on Earth.

Track 1: But after that, we don't see anything on Earth. And we have a scientist who's

Track 1: traveling to the moon for some sort of secret mission that we don't really learn

Track 1: what it is until he finally arrives.

Track 1: And it's the discovery of another one of these monoliths buried on the moon, but not just buried.

Track 1: They're intentionally buried, you know, for eventually to be found.

Track 1: And then we jump another 18 months later and Discovery One is bound to Jupiter

Track 1: with a bunch of pilots and the HAL 9000 computer to investigate.

Track 1: It was kind of all you really, you all really know at the beginning.

Track 1: And the rest of the film there isn't a lot of dialogue generally in the entire

Track 1: film it's a lot of incredible visual shots we can talk about the cinematography some but.

Track 1: It's pretty revolutionary what Stanley Kubrick did in this film I mean this

Track 1: is all kind of preparation for him faking the moon landing so I guess he was just practicing,

Track 1: for anyone out there who knows the.

Track 1: Post theories of the moon landing and Stanley Kubrick. And we don't have to,

Track 1: that's another podcast, but that's more of a conspiracy theory podcast.

Track 1: There's so much to talk about as far as the visually how it looks,

Track 1: but I think what's maybe important to talk about, unless either of you have

Track 1: anything to say about sort of the opening, you know, monolith discovery.

Track 1: But the first thing that I come to think of is the shots that they use both

Track 1: over of like sort of the earth and the sun, you know, rising in the background.

Track 1: They use that shot several times in the film. And just how you go from this

Track 1: beautiful, serene earth with, you know, rocks and water and,

Track 1: you know, animals to the sterility of space.

Track 1: And like everything you see from that point forward is just,

Track 1: you know, machines and things that humans have created.

Track 1: So almost like the idea of this was what the monolith brought to us,

Track 1: the evolution to be able to go to space and build these little gadgets and the

Track 1: HAL 9000 AI model that's going to somehow better humanity, but we don't really

Track 1: see a better humanity at all.

Track 1: I don't know, kind of just, I have a lot of thoughts in my mind, but.

Track 3: Yeah, when I, when I was watching the intro, um, I mean, obviously it's implied

Track 3: that the monolith impacted human evolution and taught the apes how to like use tools.

Track 3: And then, and then there's the contrast of them revisiting the other monolith on the moon.

Track 3: And in both scenes, they're, they're just putting their hands up

Track 3: against it but uh i i had

Track 3: the thought that it kind of it almost represents like the the

Track 3: cold uniformity of of human creation um because there's so much nature and then

Track 3: and then it just goes right into technology and it's all technology and everything

Track 3: is very formal and everybody's very stiff and and composed and wearing suits and like,

Track 3: there's you know that kind of stuffy 60s atmosphere so it's very um inhuman

Track 3: in that sense you know yeah.

Track 2: And the idea of space itself feels very inhuman like it's this liminal space

Track 2: between real places almost and that's really captured really well in this movie

Track 2: that there's just a lot of literally nothing going on like there's just a lot of space in the movie.

Track 3: And then And then I also noticed when they use the bones to kill the other ape,

Track 3: all I could think was, you know, there's the barbarism, there's the Darwinian

Track 3: destroy the weakest link is implied in that scene.

Track 3: Like there's so much about the human experience in this movie.

Track 2: Yeah, the...

Track 2: People or apes whatever we want to call them are just

Track 2: such an interesting little i guess they only

Track 2: last like 30 minutes but they they leave such a great impact because they're

Track 2: one of the few points in the movie where there's characters that you can actually

Track 2: attach yourself to and think about whereas the rest of the movie there's four

Track 2: people total in a three hour movie i mean that's not very much to really sink into no it's not.

Track 1: Yeah and the the thing about the like the the apes

Track 1: the eight people on there too is what was i going to

Track 1: say i mean i mean you sort of i almost draw a

Track 1: comparison so you have like the the like the tribes

Track 1: or the groups or whatever you want to call them of apes that are fighting and

Track 1: they learn to eventually kill each other and then you see sort of like the evolution

Track 1: which is the next moment is when they're on the space station and uh the the

Track 1: doctor um hayward haywood is going to i guess he first goes to the the first

Track 1: station to then go to another ship to take him to the moon.

Track 1: He meets with that group that are implied to be sort of Soviets or Russians or something like that.

Track 1: And then you all of a sudden have this new sort of like tribal,

Track 1: you know, issues with, or I don't know the exact word, but it's like we've evolved to,

Track 1: something that seemingly is great, but it's really, I don't know, not.

Track 1: We're not talking to each other, not helping each other. They're just independently

Track 1: building all this technology, but for what.

Track 3: And and i noticed in your notes that you mentioned the uh the clavius epidemic

Track 3: which um i mean that's that's propaganda right they don't want people to actually

Track 3: know what they're doing so they so they have to say that they're that there's

Track 3: an epidemic happening and that that's the concern right yeah or is there actually an epidemic no.

Track 2: It's all a cover story to cover up.

Track 3: Yeah yeah that's what i thought yeah yeah that's what i thought yeah.

Track 1: And you could tell that the We had like the other, like the Russians didn't

Track 1: really believe it, but they're like, we don't really have any other explanation.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 2: Yeah. It's funny. The only two like overt political symbols in the movie are

Track 2: the Soviet hammer and sickle on the one person's bag and the Soviets bag.

Track 2: And then a few minutes later, we get to see the NATO flag in the corner when

Track 2: they're giving the talk with the American flag opposite of it.

Track 2: So it's just so very clear that we're continuing to hold on to our tribes,

Track 2: our affiliations, as opposed to actually cooperating and working together.

Track 2: So the characters from the very beginning of the movie are really not supposed

Track 2: to be that much more evolved or that different than the characters later in

Track 2: the movie. There's still...

Track 2: In this weird liminal transitional space where they're becoming their full person they're.

Track 3: Never fully evolved well and like and like evan said uh it's it's smack dab

Track 3: in the middle of the space race right so it's very much a reflection of the time as well i'm.

Track 2: Gonna say it's not explicit and i don't know what kubrick's views were but he

Track 2: doesn't seem to be that supportive of the.

Track 3: Concept of.

Track 2: The space race i don't feel this movie is really supporting these tribes they

Track 2: see them as a vestige of our animal past.

Track 3: Yeah well if you think about uh dr strange love uh that's very much a a critique

Track 3: of of the red scare you know he's he's making fun of of the military industrial

Track 3: complex the communists are coming for our precious bodily fluids and all that

Track 3: so you can kind of get an idea of where where kubrick uh is coming from yeah.

Track 1: And like the technology i mean that's what i I've read some from other movies

Track 1: I've done on Kubrick where kind of learning a bit about his politics.

Track 1: I mean, generally, I've landed on a lot of his films seeming to be,

Track 1: I don't want to call them conservative, but they could lean that way.

Track 1: And that actually was one of my questions that I don't even know if I put this,

Track 1: maybe I put this on. I mean, this could be maybe something to discuss now.

Track 1: It's like, do you think that this is a film that is a conservative film?

Track 1: I don't necessarily mean like, did he mean it to be one necessarily,

Track 1: but like, does it come off as like, Oh, you know, the space rate.

Track 1: I mean, I guess you could two different political people could be asked the

Track 1: same question and give us two different answers.

Track 1: But like in your perception, do you think this is supposed to give off the vibe

Track 1: of like space is great? Like this is something that we should actually.

Track 1: You know, uh, and thinking about in the context of 1968 as well,

Track 1: like, is this something that we should be trying to achieve or is this just a waste?

Track 1: You know, he takes that flight later on and he's like the only guy on the plane both times.

Track 3: Yeah. And I noticed that I noticed all the.

Track 1: The, such a waste of resources.

Track 3: Yeah. The empty seats. And you know, it's implied that this is a,

Track 3: like an elite group of people who are, are awarded these privileges to make

Track 3: these travels because nobody else is in those seats.

Track 3: And back, but back to your original question of I don't think it's an overtly

Track 3: political movie, but I think it's culturally conservative.

Track 3: But again, I think that's just kind of a reflection of the time with the men

Track 3: in the suits and well-groomed.

Track 3: And then the women are the flight attendants or the space attendants or whatever.

Track 3: So culturally conservative, sure. Overtly political overall,

Track 3: not really. I don't think so.

Track 2: Yeah. And I just want to grasp on something that you said there.

Track 2: There's all these seats that are empty because it's reserved for only an elite.

Track 2: But then why are there so many seats?

Track 2: You know, Jeff Bezos doesn't have a full jet with a ton of seats that he flies

Track 2: around in. He has his own personal jet.

Track 2: So there's just so many contradictions in this movie.

Track 3: And he goes up to the space station in a Pan-American jet. And it's very much

Track 3: like a commercial airliner.

Track 2: And then he has to pay for his own phone calls. Like there's something weird going on here.

Track 3: Which are a whopping $1.70 for space calls, by the way.

Track 2: Yeah, to have a space call with Stanley Kubrick's daughter.

Track 1: Yeah. Well, it's, um, the way I look at it is almost like, it's almost like two things.

Track 1: One, I feel like Kubrick was trying to just imagine what,

Track 1: current travel like you get on a jet and you go to

Track 1: london like oh this is what it would look like except you get to go to the

Track 1: moon so like he was just in a way mimicking what

Track 1: it would be like but then showing like the cost that he

Track 1: has to pay for his call and you know who knows

Track 1: who's paying for this trip i guess it's nato or the u.s or whatever

Track 1: but it's like still run by corporations and

Track 1: i think there is a moment i i didn't clock when it was and

Track 1: i can't remember no is it do they say who uh the

Track 1: company who runs the phone does it say ibm at&t

Track 1: bell atlantic oh bell okay and then there's another moment where they show

Track 1: the ibm logo i don't think it was actually paid i

Track 1: don't think it was a um i don't think it's like the same way you

Track 1: get now with a um product placement kind of thing i think it just that's what

Track 1: the computer was that they had that's you know it was 1968 they didn't have

Track 1: you know japanese computers and america all these other things and i just it

Track 1: just It strikes me that he's showing you what it would be like to do this,

Track 1: but we've evolved to the point where no one can actually do this,

Track 1: probably because everyone on Earth is suffering as now.

Track 1: It's very prophetic in that way.

Track 3: Yeah. They don't have the means.

Track 2: Yeah. And just to connect this again to Dr. Strangelove, the big corporate sponsor in Dr.

Track 2: Strangelove is the Coca-Cola Company. And there's the famous line,

Track 2: you'll have to answer to the Coca-Cola Company. I don't think Kubrick likes

Track 2: this world where corporations are really conducting business on behalf of the American public.

Track 2: So I think that there's some criticism or some satire going on here.

Track 2: But it's so less avert. It's so covered in so many layers of distance that we

Track 2: can't actually see it anymore.

Track 3: It's very subtle. On the Wikipedia for the Discovery ship, it just says the

Track 3: affiliation is the United States. So there's no, um, in apart from the Pan American

Track 3: flight to the space station, I don't think there's an implied, um, corporate entity.

Track 3: Kind of owns it or anything like that.

Track 2: Everything on the space center has corporate sponsorship there's a howard johnson's i think.

Track 1: It's yes i forgot about showed in ibm.

Track 2: Uh they talk about brands or they don't talk about them brands are shown yeah.

Track 1: Yeah you know another stark this is unrelated

Track 1: i don't think they show the brand of the food they eat like there's a

Track 1: few scenes where they eat and they showed a bunch of different versions like

Track 1: the liquid like the straw he's drinking you know

Track 1: i don't know what it was like vegetables out of

Track 1: a thing and then later they eat the sandwiches on the little rover on

Track 1: moon but then it's like you have all these

Track 1: weird foods that aren't even really real but then you go back to the very opening

Track 1: shots of the you know the apes or the whatever you want to call them and they're

Track 1: sitting there like eating raw meat around yeah we're actually eating from the

Track 1: land it's sort of like another interesting you know juxtaposition of the, you know,

Track 1: eating meat and now they're eating, you know, oh, it's like,

Track 1: like, this is that, is that Turkey?

Track 1: It's like, you know, it's getting better every time. My thought is it's not really Turkey.

Track 1: Maybe there is no more Turkey and they've killed all the turkeys.

Track 1: And so now it's like, you know, Turkey flavored Turkey or something. I don't know.

Track 3: It's, it's, it's luxurious, but it's utilitarian, right?

Track 3: It's, it's simple. It's, it's what's, what's effective.

Track 3: And I think, again, I think he's just going based off of how NASA was conducting

Track 3: their space operations with you know limited resources limited payloads i guess i should say.

Track 2: Yeah and the it's kind of interesting the way food is

Track 2: presented throughout the movie because it becomes less and less real as

Track 2: it goes on because they're drinking drinks and eating food on the

Track 2: space station that kind of looks like food and then you get to the point where

Track 2: they're on the uh jupiter mission and they're just like eating paste just like

Track 2: colorful pastes and it's just so repulsive but even the very first instance

Track 2: where it shows the eight people killing and then eating their i I think they're

Track 2: tapers. I don't know what they were actually supposed to represent.

Track 3: But I mean, the whole thing is a statement about evolution, right?

Track 2: Right.

Track 3: And pretty much the whole thing.

Track 2: But it's also not appealing. As soon as they kill those tapers,

Track 2: you start to hear flies and you can just like feel the heat and smell the rotted

Track 2: meat. And it's just so uncomfortable.

Track 2: Food is such an uncomfortable concept, even up to the very end where he's again

Track 2: eating what appears to be just like regular real food. It just looks so unappealing.

Track 2: It's just like smeared all over his plate. It's just so strange and uncomfortable.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 1: I wonder what they use for the raw meat. I wonder if it actually just was like

Track 1: meat that they didn't actually eat.

Track 1: I didn't, I didn't like look as deeply into like the, all of the,

Track 1: uh, the making of it, of it.

Track 1: I've long time ago. I watched the, like the, some of the, there's probably like

Track 1: 50 hours of, of documentaries at least on the making of this film,

Track 1: you know, 50 times the amount of the actual film itself.

Track 3: Yeah. I mean, it's so, it's so stunning and so believable.

Track 3: Like i it's it's hard to believe that it's made in 1968 because it's it holds

Track 3: up so well it's so tangible and so convincing.

Track 2: You really get a visceral feel of what's

Track 2: going on on the screen and i think just talking

Track 2: about what this movie even is it's it was sold as an

Track 2: action adventure movie but it just feels like it's so much further from the

Track 2: truth especially you know like this post star wars world or this post star trek

Track 2: world where an action adventure set in space has things that happen whereas

Track 2: this movie is two and a half hours long and not much happens it's.

Track 3: All atmosphere it's all um exposition making you feel like you're there.

Track 2: Yeah and it's so at least in my experience it was so un like unpleasant so visceral

Track 2: so contradicting so uncomfortable like space itself is not a place you want

Track 2: to be it's just vast empty and just void of human contact and human emotion.

Track 1: Yeah and i think i don't know if i think i told you this levi before

Track 1: is i used to like in my in my like you know younger self

Track 1: would be like oh you know 2001 is easily it's

Track 1: a you know five star film like it's perfect there's nothing wrong

Track 1: with it like the visual everything about it and when i

Track 1: when i watch it now like i do still think that the

Track 1: visuals and the effects and everything thing that he was able to

Track 1: do is like an incredible achievement again 1968

Track 1: to pull this off is very impressive everything looks

Track 1: the effects actually look better than most movies now

Track 1: with special effects you know that are made in 2025

Track 1: with you know ai on you know ironically um but like i think about the movie

Track 1: now and it just it doesn't do i don't have the same you know uh reaction to

Track 1: it i find the visuals to be sometimes almost too much even though they're so

Track 1: impressive and i just am was not compelled by what I would,

Track 1: loosely call a plot and i i feel like i feel like it's like a hot take to be

Track 1: like i like it's a good movie but is it a good movie or is i don't know i.

Track 3: I i had i had the opposite experience

Track 3: i was completely enthralled the whole time and just marveling at the fact that

Track 3: they were able to accomplish that in 1968 um but but also like like space movies

Track 3: now they're not going to take the time to do that much exposition and that much focus on atmosphere.

Track 3: Now they just kind of thrust you into everything. And again,

Track 3: that's just a change of pace and time. The way that movies are made now is different.

Track 1: I think I'm going to be canceled now for my opinion on 2001.

Track 3: How dare you?

Track 1: Everyone keep listening. It's okay. We're still going to talk about 2001.

Track 2: Your state of Stanley Kubrick will be at your door soon.

Track 1: Yeah they're cease and desist.

Track 2: I feel like i'm somewhere between the two because i

Track 2: really was kind of surprised at how much this

Track 2: movie like made me feel uncomfortable and what it like really pushed

Track 2: me to feel about space and thinking about these things

Track 2: that i really hadn't thought about since i was a kid watching this

Track 2: for the first time uh but at the same time in support

Track 2: of evan's statement i don't know that i would even consider this like top three

Track 2: cubrick films you know there's something not quite there in this movie for me

Track 2: it it really elicits emotion but i it just feels very the emotion feels very

Track 2: raw if that makes any sense it just feels like an experience not like something

Track 2: that's really worth thinking about too much it's.

Track 3: Certainly not as edgy as his later stuff like uh full metal jacket and the shining

Track 3: which are my two favorites but uh but i still very much appreciate it for what it is.

Track 2: Yeah i think that's the best summary of it is it it's definitely the best space

Track 2: movie i've ever seen not that i've seen a ton of them but like i would take this over star wars yeah.

Track 3: Me too at this point in my life yeah.

Track 1: I was gonna i was gonna avoid saying this

Track 1: but i'm gonna say it anyway is that is that it's

Track 1: often imbued in like a comparative sort of

Track 1: as the uh soviet film solaris by

Track 1: andre turkovsky which i covered a couple years ago or

Track 1: a year ago with um rev left and he

Track 1: when he made that film it was intentionally he intentionally said

Track 1: in some of the things he wrote that he wasn't trying to make like

Track 1: a his version of 2001 even though i think he's lying about that i think he was

Track 1: sort of trying to make making a version of that or like his version granted

Track 1: it was based on a different book so it's a different film it's not like he was

Track 1: doing the same thing but it's a much different film with like much deeper uh you know,

Track 1: connective connectivity amongst of like feeling

Track 1: and they don't spend a lot of that time on like

Track 1: the space of it it's more of the you know

Track 1: the feelings of it so it's a different kind of film and again i don't want to

Track 1: try i'm not going to compare them which one's better but i still think that

Track 1: 2001 is like a four four and a half star film i just think that like the shining

Track 1: and eyes wide shut and dr strange love to me are better overall in his body

Track 1: of work or just preferred by me i.

Track 3: Can respect that yeah.

Track 1: It's like it's like it's like a very high bar you know um yes yeah so oh.

Track 3: But but but how we need to stay on the.

Track 1: Top of the eye right yeah.

Track 3: Yeah because we didn't want to get too much into the the visuals like like you said in your notes.

Track 1: Yeah i i didn't i don't want to i know we could spend

Track 1: this it's it's hard but so yeah i mean so we can well let's

Track 1: i mean let's talk about how and sort of maybe we can

Track 1: go deeper into you know maybe people haven't read that

Track 1: that short story you referenced before but just in

Track 1: general like some of the things i'm thinking about how and

Track 1: then i know joey you like talk about the the

Track 1: outset and sort of your you know the the concept of just modern ai and sort

Track 1: of how you view how and one of the strangest things i think that maybe they

Track 1: introduce him is they're talking about him as this one of two versions of him

Track 1: that exist they also mention later when he's talking about who like his creator was He says, Dr.

Track 1: Langley, which to me made it sound like he was created by the CIA.

Track 1: Is that just what you're just supposed to assume?

Track 1: I don't know. Maybe that's Langley based. Anyway, and so he's created,

Track 1: but they give an interview to all of the members of the crew,

Track 1: but they also interview Hal. And that's just weird to me.

Track 1: You're going to interview this thing. I don't know.

Track 1: How do you, I don't know where I'm going with this. It's weird to the concept

Track 1: of interviewing the AI that humans created about their mission.

Track 2: It is weird, but how many podcasts or how many interviews came out where they

Track 2: were just typing in questions to AI as soon as that became big news?

Track 2: I mean, it's strange and it feels wrong, but it's exactly what happened as soon

Track 2: as that was an opportunity.

Track 1: Fuck, you're right. Yes. Yeah, yeah. What is ChatTBT but interviewing AI?

Track 2: Right.

Track 3: What struck me about it was I found it very prescient. I think Hal...

Track 3: Operates very much like the language

Track 3: models operate you know in my limited experience with

Track 3: chat gpt it's very formal and it's

Track 3: very polite and it picks up on social cues

Track 3: to a certain degree and it can it can detect um tone and and sarcasm and like

Track 3: it's it can it can be very convincing and the way that hal communicates to me

Track 3: was was very eerily um similar to what we're dealing with right now yeah.

Track 2: And that that feeling is just elevated by the fact that the actors themselves,

Track 2: act so canned and computer-like they don't seem to have very much emotion in

Track 2: their voice whereas Hal always has the exact same feeling in his voice or their

Track 2: voice whatever we want to call it.

Track 1: The question then is is which one is mimicking the other yeah right like that.

Track 3: Goes back to the question of the developers.

Track 1: Yeah it's just like the the idea I mean it reminds me

Track 1: I think they have a couple i think at one point they ask them

Track 1: you know and i think the the main astronaut

Track 1: says that he acts like he has genuine emotions acting like

Track 1: them and then he says we can't ask we can't answer he's capable of

Track 1: real emotions and it it should be obvious that he's not capable of real emotions

Track 1: he's he's not human and and i don't i mean i suppose there's i don't know tech

Track 1: bros that'll tell me that version 512 of ChatGPT will be capable of human emotion or something,

Track 1: but they're not capable of that.

Track 1: And it's very clear that he's a computer.

Track 1: They say he's the most reliable computer ever made. This is what he's built

Track 1: for, to be able to assess situations. Oh, is this system failing?

Track 1: Oh, let me look at your drawing. That's also a very troubling scene that makes

Track 1: me deeply uncomfortable is when he shows him the sketch and like holds it up

Track 1: really close to the lens yeah.

Track 2: There's just like so many moments in this movie that just make me feel squeamish,

Track 2: It's really interesting that line you said where he seems like he's human.

Track 2: He certainly seems like he's human, I think is the word that – I think that's

Track 2: Dave, maybe Frank says it. The two characters are so similar.

Track 1: Oh, did they say seems? Oh, seems, okay.

Track 2: Yeah, I mean, he goes back. He corrects himself, saying like,

Track 2: yeah, he seems like he has real emotion.

Track 2: But, I mean, we could get lost on this rabbit hole, and I suggest we don't because

Track 2: it's just too navel-gazy. But it's Dr.

Track 2: David Bowman that says that, right? He's not a real human being either.

Track 2: He's a fictional character that we've imbued with human feelings.

Track 2: And the same way that we've imbued this computer character with human feelings

Track 2: in this movie, they're all just like representations of humanity that we know.

Track 2: We know it's a movie. We know it's not real. We know that hell's not a real

Track 2: thing, but we feel for it and we think about it.

Track 3: I was going to say, back to what you were saying about it not having emotions,

Track 3: I feel like it's implied that it does because some of its last words are, I'm afraid.

Track 3: And the whole reason that it sabotages the crew is because it realizes that

Track 3: it's going to get shut off and it develops distrust.

Track 3: So whether those emotions are real or not, they're very human.

Track 2: Yeah and the last time i watched it i just watched it right before we started

Track 2: here what really got me is i i still can't figure out why he plays the video

Track 2: as his last effort at you know his quote-unquote life he he didn't need to maybe.

Track 3: It was programmed that if they shut off the howl 9000 that the video would play.

Track 2: That's an assumption yeah but yeah they they i think they would have assumed

Track 2: that they're shutting off the howl that the mission just would have been failed at that point yeah.

Track 1: My theory which i don't know again this is true or

Track 1: not is that the video would play when it

Track 1: reached a certain distance from jupiter

Track 1: and so like it just it's hard to believe the coincidence

Track 1: would be like he's down there pulling out the the hard drives or

Track 1: whatever and then at that exact moment they're like 500 you

Track 1: know million of what i don't know some distance from jupiter and it plays but

Track 1: maybe it was his attempt that you know if i if i share this secret with you

Track 1: will you like now see that i was doing this act out of you know the the mission

Track 1: and not simply to hurt you like i do have feelings so yeah maybe yeah.

Track 2: It definitely plays into the idea that he's more human because if it was a machine

Track 2: there would be no reason to play that video because he would be gone whereas

Track 2: human beings were always thinking about death as this something that happens

Track 2: but life continues it's so i at least in my mind i want to think that he chose

Track 2: to play that video as his last ounce of actual effort.

Track 1: Maybe so.

Track 2: As he's singing Daisy.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 2: Because he's afraid.

Track 3: I love that.

Track 2: He's afraid he'll be forgotten.

Track 3: I hadn't...

Track 3: I hadn't considered all these different possibilities.

Track 1: No.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 1: I, I, I was like in my head, just has convinced that it like turned on at a

Track 1: certain moment, but it does make a lot more.

Track 1: I mean, in a weird way that he would play this as his last ditch effort.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 1: Well, I think one of the things that also, I don't know if this,

Track 1: you got this to Levi from like a lot of this.

Track 1: I mean, when, when I say something, this seems like maybe uncomfortable,

Track 1: like in some ways that's like a good thing.

Track 1: Like there's lots of films I've watched that make me deeply uncomfortable,

Track 1: but like makes me think about them.

Track 1: And there's a lot of moments, probably in the last, before the very final moment

Track 1: when they get to Jupiter, where

Track 1: the only sound you really get is of him breathing, of Bowman breathing.

Track 1: And it's very uncomfortable because one, it gives you this sort of,

Track 1: maybe for me, of being lost in space. That would be horrific.

Track 1: You're floating away and you have to wait until you just run out of air and

Track 1: die. And the constant breathing of all this, like the things that happened is

Track 1: just really hard to watch almost.

Track 3: Well, one of the reasons that this movie was praised was because it was a very...

Track 3: At least scientifically plausible depiction of space

Track 3: right like all the sounds are coming from the

Track 3: crew and from the ship there's no sounds coming

Track 3: from outside it's not like star wars where you hear explosions in space and

Track 3: you know that's that wouldn't happen because space is a vacuum so so all that

Track 3: you're left with is is the warning beeps and the breathing and and uh all the

Track 3: things that you would actually hear if you were in this situation apart from

Track 3: the classic classical music obviously.

Track 1: Yeah which.

Track 2: Is this is always playing out there in space they just haven't told yes.

Track 3: It's it's just always playing out there.

Track 2: Nobody.

Track 1: Knows it's just a spotify playlist you know just it's gone you've.

Track 3: Heard of flat earth but that's the real secret is that there's always classical

Track 3: music playing in space always Wagner always Richard Strauss.

Track 1: The music is I mean we didn't even mention it

Track 1: really I guess I briefly did it's like the music is like especially the

Track 1: the opening and some of the other moments when they're when the

Track 1: apes you know the model of the peers is just like very

Track 1: iconic but they like have no music at

Track 1: the times where it's like they're they're in some and like a lesser

Track 1: film or in like a modern film they would put some

Track 1: kind of like low music in there but they don't and i

Track 1: think to its benefit it's um makes all of

Track 1: those scenes just like like in some ways like i don't usually complain a two

Track 1: and a half hour movie is like fairly long it's not you know it's not three hours

Track 1: it's two and a half hours but there are some of those scenes that just felt

Track 1: very long to me more than they had in the past not necessarily a bad way but

Track 1: just in a i know sometimes.

Track 3: Sometimes less is more and they use that to build the tension.

Track 1: Yes they do yeah.

Track 2: There's actually uh there was an original score made for 2001 space odyssey

Track 2: to take up the entire film like a classic film uh composed by alex north but

Track 2: kubrick just preferred nothing,

Track 2: over the compositions of Alex North and that Alex North composition is actually

Track 2: available to listen to and it,

Track 2: feels like a movie soundtrack it would make the movie feel

Track 2: like a movie and that's why most people

Track 2: believe he took it out and it was just this huge slap

Track 2: in the face alex north because it was up to the point where it's premiered that

Track 2: he thought his music was going to be in the movie oh geez he sits through the

Track 2: movie and he's he's like um you know it's one thing uh to be replaced by richard

Track 2: strauss like i understand that but my composition was replaced by nothing it's

Track 2: like And that's the embarrassment that I have to face.

Track 1: I wonder if anyone's ever cut the film with that score in it,

Track 1: like to see what it would sound like. Because that would be interesting.

Track 3: That's a great question.

Track 1: Someone has, right? I mean.

Track 2: You can just imagine that it wouldn't feel the same.

Track 2: The way the music works in 2001 is that it's a part of the presentation itself.

Track 2: Like the music stands on its own, obviously because they're their own classical

Track 2: pieces, but they elicit emotion on their own.

Track 2: Whereas a regular score in a movie like

Track 2: supplements what's going on in a movie it's part of the movie it's not like

Track 2: an onslaught of just images and film and i don't know i guess i'm not articulating

Track 2: this very well but it it doesn't feel like the music is driving the action in

Track 2: the movie or the movie is driving the action in the music it's just it all comes together at once yeah.

Track 3: No so to answer that i agree to answer that question it looks like there is

Track 3: a version of 2001 a space odyssey with Alex North's soundtrack on Vimeo.

Track 3: It looks like that's the only one I can find, but it looks like it does exist.

Track 1: Yeah, that doesn't...

Track 3: So that's interesting.

Track 1: He probably, his kids put it together, like, he shall not be forgotten.

Track 2: I think to go back to something that was said before about the,

Track 2: all you hear is the breathing and as you're seeing the vastness of space.

Track 2: And that's why I don't get this idea that this isn't a personal film.

Track 2: It's not about the individual people on this spit

Track 2: because it's impossible not to think of yourself in

Track 2: space and thinking of the human condition that we're all just

Track 2: like floating out there i mean we're on this planet but we're all floating out

Track 2: there basically alone as far as we know and that's so you know that is the human

Track 2: condition that we're in this vast space infinite infinite possibilities but

Track 2: all we can think about is what's going on inside our own heads i.

Track 3: Also noticed um just related to that the only time you ever really see Dave

Track 3: display emotion is when he's shutting Hal down and when he's being transported

Track 3: through the Stargate like those are the only two times where you really actually

Track 3: see him visibly distressed he's completely composed the rest of the movie.

Track 2: Yeah.

Track 3: Which I'm sure is intentional.

Track 1: In a way that goes back to the, the, the flights where, you know,

Track 1: Heywood is on the flight with no one on it.

Track 1: And, you know, he doesn't really there. Yeah. There's that group of NATO people

Track 1: that are on that base or whatever, but generally everything is like very individualistic,

Track 1: which again is such a, you know, especially at this time early,

Track 1: you know, somewhat earlier in like the cold war of this very much individual

Track 1: versus kind of the collective being.

Track 1: This film makes it feel like you are alone and you are have to be this individual,

Track 1: but I don't know if Kubrick was trying to say like, that's bad or actually,

Track 1: you know, that's just what it is.

Track 1: I mean, I guess it doesn't matter what he was trying to do, but it comes off

Track 1: as like, feels very individualistic.

Track 2: Yeah. I think that goes back to your question about whether or not this is a

Track 2: conservative movie because I agree.

Track 2: I think Kubrick is trying to say that there's something horribly discomforting

Track 2: about how alone we all feel in this world.

Track 2: And I don't think he's supporting that idea.

Track 2: But I don't think he's calling for us to like make a communist revolution and

Track 2: bring us all together either.

Track 2: In that way, I guess I would argue that maybe this is a conservative film and

Track 2: that it's just saying that this is the human condition, that we're all alone,

Track 2: that we're all alienated rather than claiming that this is the result of the

Track 2: form of production that we currently live under.

Track 1: Yeah i i would i would certainly buy that

Track 1: that he's sort of put himself and like he just

Track 1: this is how he sees you know the world

Track 1: i mean going back again to uh um dr

Track 1: strange love which again is much of a satirical film but he's still also commenting

Track 1: on like this is just kind of like the way it is like we have these people creating

Track 1: nuclear bombs and they're in bunkers and they just call all the shots and they

Track 1: can destroy earth if they want to and there's nothing we can really do about it.

Track 1: And so why bother trying, which in this, it's like, this is kind of like the

Track 1: next logical step where, okay, we've destroyed everything on earth.

Track 1: Now we have to go to space to explore something new, but that's not going to

Track 1: bring us any kind of real enlightenment either.

Track 2: Yeah.

Track 3: And I feel like, I feel like it was just kind of a presumptive future where

Track 3: the, where the, the, the existing order is still there, you know, 40 years later.

Track 3: Um, and, and kind of The cultural norms are still there to a certain degree.

Track 2: Yeah. I know that you have this sort of space.

Track 3: I mean, apart from, sorry, apart from the empty chairs, I feel like that's the

Track 3: most like blatant statement about, you know, the economic reality that people

Track 3: are in is that there's all these luxury seats and nobody's in them.

Track 2: Yeah, I know we've been sort of accepting this headcanon that Earth is destroyed

Track 2: or messed up, which is very plausible.

Track 2: But they talk about going back to Earth and visiting each other's friends and

Track 2: family and their research on Earth and what they're doing in the Arctic.

Track 2: And one guy's doing research in the Baltic Sea.

Track 2: So stuff is still going on. There's still humanity. There's still community.

Track 2: And there seems to be even closer community, right? These Soviets are talking

Track 2: about visiting their friend in the United States and having these little trips together.

Track 2: So, I mean, there's at least some assumption. i mean the height of the cold

Track 2: war is going on right now the cuban missile crisis was

Track 2: only four years before this movie and they're talking about

Track 2: sort of getting together with their friends the soviets like there there is

Track 2: something there um you know on earth in this movie it's just that's not the

Track 2: focus of the movie clearly yeah and i actually found all the when the soviets

Track 2: are talking they're speaking in russian obviously and i found like a loose translation

Track 2: of the russian And but apparently the Russian was just like horrible,

Track 2: clearly spoken by people that don't know Russian very well and not translated

Track 2: for Americans because it's just unimportant. They're just speaking Russian.

Track 2: It's supposed to be gibberish, but loosely translated.

Track 2: It's them expressing actual concern for the people on the base,

Track 2: the Americans that are in this false pandemic.

Track 2: Like they appear to have bought the story hook, line and sinker.

Track 2: And their media thought is, man, that's so terrible for them. I hope they get out. OK.

Track 1: Wow. I found it so interesting that they don't translate that one,

Track 1: those like, you know, a couple of lines.

Track 1: And I actually, I didn't get a chance to look it up. I'm glad you did that.

Track 1: That's interesting. And almost, I think to your point, Levi,

Track 1: I think, I guess I was making assumptions about like what was going on on Earth

Track 1: when, you know, just because they're doing these things doesn't necessarily

Track 1: mean that, you know, Earth is, you know,

Track 1: destroyed or whatever I was, you know, saying.

Track 1: So I think that is a good point. And they're kind of just sending these people

Track 1: as sort of like these representatives, these NATO officials.

Track 1: And we didn't talk about it before, but the little meeting that Haywood has

Track 1: with the group where he kind of gives this little speech.

Track 1: And then later on the little shuttle, his two friends are like,

Track 1: oh, what a rousing speech. And I'm thinking like, that was a horrible speech.

Track 1: He didn't say literally anything at all. He just like basically read,

Track 1: you know, he could have like typed into TAL 9000, like, Give me,

Track 1: you know, one paragraph to say to these people just to, you know, make them listen to me.

Track 1: And it just was very much like, this is what we're doing.

Track 1: You know, I'm sure that's probably how, you know, government.

Track 1: Types of things might have gone on where they just this is

Track 1: the this is the u.s's position and like deal

Track 1: with it i don't know it's not really like an important part of the film i feel

Track 1: like almost like that middle section uh sorry when they yes when they go to

Track 1: the model it's kind of important to know that that's kind of what's leading

Track 1: the charge to the discovery one making its journey but yeah.

Track 2: Yeah i don't know what to make of that it's.

Track 1: Again it's not um as important but this is this is another maybe.

Track 2: I guess to one thing to build on that is what they don't talk about these missions

Track 2: is resource gathering it just appears to be scientific research period they're

Track 2: just investigating stuff yeah um and that sort of contrasts with when the bone

Track 2: is thrown up in the air and it has that famous what is that called a jump cut

Track 2: yeah it's one of like the best.

Track 1: Maybe ever like in the history of film probably.

Track 2: Yeah it goes into the satellite right and the satellite uh has a flag on the

Track 2: side of it did you guys catch that it had a flag on the side of it.

Track 3: No no i didn't.

Track 2: Want to guess what flag is on the side of that satellite i'm gonna say i would have never guessed it.

Track 1: It's definitely not america because that would be too.

Track 2: Obvious so.

Track 3: And it's not soviet because that would also be obvious.

Track 2: Yeah it is uh the flag of the republic of germany for some reason it's german

Track 2: flag is on the side of it there and then the next satellite this show has the

Track 2: the bright red star which we're meant to assume is probably china or soviet union or God knows what.

Track 2: So, and why do they have these satellites out there? I mean,

Track 2: it's never stated explicitly, but just going off of Dr.

Track 2: Strangelove and the way that this is understood as NATO and Soviets,

Track 2: probably GPS or some kind of GPS or some kind of missile.

Track 2: There's some sort of defense, which makes sense if it's jump cut with that bone,

Track 2: which is the first weapon.

Track 2: We've just created these weapons that now float around in space and have this

Track 2: constant threat of utter and complete annihilation of the world looming over us at all times.

Track 1: You can just destroy your fellow tribe with just like the click of a button,

Track 1: you know, entering of a launch code or something is kind of unsettling.

Track 1: I mean, And that could be, I mean, in some ways you could say that Kubrick there

Track 1: is sort of commenting further on Dr.

Track 1: Strangelvin, the idea of this expansion of the Cold War and the weapons,

Track 1: as you said, five years after Cuban Missile Crisis.

Track 1: And, you know, OK, so this in a way that it makes sense that the scientists are sending, you know,

Track 1: missions out to Jupiter to kind of figure something out is maybe maybe they

Track 1: want a weapon from said aliens to be better than the Soviets weapon.

Track 1: And I don't know, because of course they would.

Track 2: It is assumed, and it's probably true. Why else would NATO be heading this investigation?

Track 2: But this is what he thought the future was going to be, that NATO was going to fund everything.

Track 3: Yeah, I feel like it's just kind of how he envisioned the future.

Track 3: It doesn't strike me as a dystopian movie, particularly.

Track 3: It seems like there's a lot of norms and a lot of functionality.

Track 3: I mean, certainly compared to something like

Track 3: mickey 17 where it's just we're gonna throw as much human suffering and misery

Track 3: as possible as we can at at profit and resource hoarding yeah it definitely.

Track 2: It doesn't feel like a dystopia but it also doesn't feel like a utopia.

Track 3: No no yeah i don't i don't think so feels.

Track 2: Like he's just trying to capture that as much as we change we're still kind

Track 2: of the same yeah that's true.

Track 3: Well said that.

Track 1: Like leads me in a way now it's not really a direct line but i was thinking

Track 1: about sort of the mission is what they're trying to do.

Track 1: We, we, we discover when he's taking the, he's destroying Hal and he discovers

Track 1: the real reason for this trip is that they've discovered extraterrestrial life

Track 1: and the signal is going to Jupiter and they're sending the ship out there,

Track 1: to investigate it because they don't probably have much more information than that.

Track 1: And he gets close. He goes out in the little like smaller module and,

Track 1: you know, kind of what happens from there is all very um

Track 1: unknown as to whether this is you

Track 1: know real or what part of it is real what part of

Track 1: it is imaginary what part of it is whatever you

Track 1: see the obelisk kind of like floating out there and he goes through

Track 1: this what like not a wormhole what did you call it uh he's

Track 1: like stargate stargate yeah some kind of yeah transport and

Track 1: he ends up in this sort of very sterile

Track 1: very fancy room with sort of

Track 1: different versions of himself i guess we can maybe talk about

Track 1: what we think that's all about i mean the book has a

Track 1: much different ending but i'm curious what you make of this and like do you

Track 1: think that the ultimate goal is by sending these astronauts they were going

Track 1: to experience something potentially never ever returning so it's almost like

Track 1: why i I guess that's worth their risk to potentially receive some, you know,

Track 1: transmission in return, which seemingly does not happen.

Track 3: Yeah. Well, back to what you asked, what I make of it.

Track 3: Something I noticed that I'd never noticed before was right when he gets to

Track 3: Jupiter and that monolith is floating through space,

Track 3: he gets transported right at the moment that all of the planets in the solar

Track 3: system are perfectly aligned with this monolith in the middle.

Track 3: And I hadn't noticed that before, so that suggests that this is a very specifically

Track 3: timed celestial event from start to end.

Track 1: Yeah, it happens three times, but they're all lined up that way.

Track 3: Yeah, and I've read some theories. It seems like the prevailing theory is that,

Track 3: obviously, the monolith influenced human evolution, but the idea is...

Track 3: Dave gets transported to another galaxy, another dimension.

Track 3: He experiences rapid stages of aging.

Track 3: And then he goes through a death and a rebirth. And then he's returned to Earth

Track 3: as sort of like a star child.

Track 3: And some people interpret that as he's like a messianic figure or something significant like that.

Track 2: Yeah, I mean, that would make sense with the title, The Odyssey,

Track 2: because it would be based on The Odyssey.

Track 2: But that is what happens. he returns as the savior of humanity or

Track 2: his town there you go it just

Track 2: fits with the name but i think to go back with uh on a question that or a comment

Track 2: that evan made earlier about you know what are these astronauts getting why

Track 2: would they do this it was basically the question but i mean that was the same

Track 2: question that was being asked of the astronauts going to the moon at that time

Track 2: there was no promise that they would come back there was actually a lot of assumptions

Track 2: that they wouldn't come back.

Track 2: It's kind of insane that all of them came back alive.

Track 2: And there's actually a video that you can find out there, an AI deepfake of

Track 2: all things, of Richard Nixon giving the speech that was created in the event

Track 2: that the astronauts did not make it back alive, because that was the prevailing

Track 2: assumption, was that they wouldn't.

Track 2: So there's a whole speech that was written and has been produced with AI of

Track 2: Richard Nixon giving that infamous speech in 68, talking about the lives that

Track 2: were lost for the discovery and furthering of mankind.

Track 2: So this would have been a prevailing attitude at the time that these astronauts

Track 2: are kind of cut from a different cloth, that they're really sacrificing their

Track 2: lives for science, for investigation, for humanity.

Track 2: I don't know that I agree that that is the premise of space exploration,

Track 2: but that is definitely what he's getting at, I believe.

Track 3: Yeah. Well, it was and it is very risky.

Track 2: Yes.

Track 3: But I feel like, like it's implied that a certain level of it is no longer risky,

Track 3: you know, like the Pan American flight to the space station.

Track 3: That's all very, um, routine. That's kind of the, because you know, he's,

Track 3: He's chilling like he's in a commercial airliner. There's a pen floating there.

Track 3: And, you know, he's watching.

Track 3: I also, I did want to point out that I thought it was funny that there was a

Track 3: TV screen on the back of the seat. And I was like, we have that. That's a real thing now.

Track 2: And they appear to be watching the news on little iPads on their tables.

Track 2: Like, there's so much that they got pretty well.

Track 1: Also, when he has to check his identity and he says his name and,

Track 1: like, uses his voice print to identify himself.

Track 1: I'm like, that's, I mean, you know, like that's pretty commonly,

Track 1: I mean, maybe not like for the average person, but I'm sure there's voice identifications

Track 1: and all these different kinds of things, a lot of that levels too.

Track 1: And then I guess that like takes it to the, you know,

Track 1: the actual sort of room, which I've seen like different interpretations,

Track 1: a lot of them as sort of like,

Track 1: you know, one of the common ones is sort of like seeing sort of your life and

Track 1: all the maybe understanding what like has happened in your life, looking back on it.

Track 1: You know, maybe what he's actually doing is lying there, remembering all the

Track 1: things that's happened up until then.

Track 1: And then you see sort of that birth of the little of the baby.

Track 1: The infant inside of the little orb going back to Earth, kind of like recreating it.

Track 1: But what's sort of interesting is that the film diverged from the book,

Track 1: and this is, I guess, a spoiler for the book,

Track 1: is that it's clear in the book that the monolith or the aliens are the species

Track 1: that has gone through evolutions multiple times.

Track 1: They become full human beings and then they go back and they reinvent themselves.

Track 1: So it's almost like the idea that the humans need to almost go back to their

Track 1: infancy and re-evolve in a way that maybe isn't so violent or is different.

Track 1: Maybe they made a mistake in the way they brought about evolution for humans.

Track 1: Humans should have evolved in their own way.

Track 3: Or maybe it's the next stage of human evolution.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 3: It's how we become become become super humans

Track 3: you know but back back to what you said about the room

Track 3: um i couldn't come up with

Track 3: any theories of my own about the room but i did look

Track 3: and the internet believes that uh that it's like a an intergalactic zoo for

Track 3: like this this advanced alien species like where they can study humans and so

Track 3: that's why it's like a room but it's not really a room But that's just what I've read.

Track 3: I can't I can't say that I necessarily agree with that theory,

Track 3: but it is an interesting one.

Track 2: Yeah, I think it's I don't know the book version, but I know in the movie version,

Track 2: it's just intentionally designed to be, in my mind, the resolution of the contradictions

Track 2: that somehow it's meant to be incomprehensible.

Track 2: Because it's a point that we as human beings can never actually reach,

Track 2: which is like the resolution of our humanity. This is the next step.

Track 2: And as we're stuck in the current step, we're in, right now is the period between

Track 2: however many millions of years ago when the aliens first touched us in Africa

Track 2: and millions of years later when we reached Jupiter, we're there.

Track 2: We're in that step. We can't imagine the next step.

Track 2: And that's sort of, to take this in the Marxian direction, that's how the next

Track 2: world is born is out of the current world, but we don't actually know what the

Track 2: next world is going to look like. It needs to bring itself into existence.

Track 2: And that's impossible to present in a way that's comprehensible without being

Track 2: idealistic. And I think the furthest thing that Kubrick wanted to be was idealistic.

Track 2: He wanted to try to present something real. And so it's incomprehensible because

Track 2: the real next step is incomprehensible.

Track 1: It's interesting you say that in a way because a lot of the criticism I have,

Track 1: not with this movie but with like some movies where they present you

Track 1: know uh revolution or you know some

Track 1: kind of aspect of that is this is like how this

Track 1: is what we need to do to like break free of this horrible system but then there's

Track 1: no actual sort of like resolution like what would be the next stage in some

Track 1: ways kubrick is almost like turning that it's on his head like not presenting

Track 1: you with this potential you know alternative because we don't actually know

Track 1: what it is and And in some ways,

Track 1: like that's more respectable to me in some way. Does that make sense?

Track 2: Or he is presenting it, but it's so incomprehensible because it is the next step.

Track 1: Right. Yeah.

Track 2: It's sort of like a cross between the two.

Track 1: Yes. And one of the things that I thought is so great about that scene,

Track 1: it also makes it kind of incomprehensible.

Track 1: As you first see Bowman, he's like walking in and it kind of seems like he's

Track 1: watching someone else in that room.

Track 1: Like they have him kind of in the bathroom, seeing the person eating dinner.

Track 1: And then they have the kind of the shot over him where it's kind of from his

Track 1: point of view and then it switches to the point of view of the person at the

Track 1: table and there's no one there. So like it's, it's, it's,

Track 1: It's almost like he's watching himself, but then he's not watching himself.

Track 1: Like, was he looking into a mirror? I mean, you know, all these different kinds of theories.

Track 1: But it's, again, very intentionally impossible to really understand.

Track 1: But then it clearly looks like him. And they show him with his helmet on,

Track 1: visibly older inside of there.

Track 1: Like, maybe that's just it took him that long to get there, you know?

Track 1: I don't know. All these, I'm just kind of, the shots in that scene are just great.

Track 3: So I think when he's in the, um, in the space suit and he's visibly aged,

Track 3: I just think that's because of the, the travel because, you know,

Track 3: the closer you approach the speed of light that affects time and stuff like that.

Track 3: But when he's looking at himself in that room, it's like, did he travel to a different time?

Track 3: You know, is his consciousness in two places at the same time?

Track 3: Does his consciousness get transported into that room, into that older body?

Track 3: Those were the questions I was asking myself during that scene.

Track 2: Yeah, I think those are the right questions. I think that's what Kubrick is

Track 2: getting at is thinking about this consciousness.

Track 2: We're all alone. He's literally alone during this whole period,

Track 2: but he appears to be with himself. So is he alone if he's with himself?

Track 2: And there's clearly something else going on there, something that brought him

Track 2: there, there's something that's feeding him or someone, but it's never shown.

Track 2: And apparently in early ideas in the movie Kubrick wanted there to be a like

Track 2: alien body present in the room as well but he just could never get the design

Track 2: or it was never presented with the design that he felt was appropriate so he

Track 2: went with the unseen hand and which obviously works way better than probably

Track 2: any hokey alien he could have come up with.

Track 1: You really unfortunate if they put some sort of alien speed you know creature

Track 1: or something in there it kind of takes away from the mystery yeah.

Track 3: Yeah it would have been like a big reveal like oh okay there's aliens we got

Track 3: it yeah it's it's more open to interpretation this way.

Track 1: Because really the only understanding of the alien life

Track 1: is just simply the monolith like multiple of

Track 1: them and you know you mean you also have this it gets

Track 1: me thinking like okay are they sending this monolith to every

Track 1: planet like did they just send it to the moon for humans to

Track 1: find because they knew that they would eventually find it

Track 1: you know that was just kind of their their belief was eventually

Track 1: they would evolve to the point of being able to explore

Track 1: the moon you know or they put them on mars and

Track 1: you know every you know i don't know it's not needless questions

Track 1: perhaps but like makes me think about just what the you know these like i don't

Track 1: know what um kubrick or like what his he was trying to impose by using the monolith

Track 1: as this we didn't maybe we didn't really talk about it before is could humans not have evolved into,

Track 1: you know, what they are and what they became without the help, you know?

Track 3: Well, you know, I, I kind of believe the, um, the scientific explanation.

Track 3: Um, but it does remind me of Terrence McKenna's stoned ape theory.

Track 3: Uh, which he, I think he first wrote about it in his book, food of the gods,

Track 3: where he, he came up with this, what he called the stone day theory,

Track 3: which is that psychedelics actually aided the

Track 3: development of the human mind and allowed us to be able to think more abstractly,

Track 3: which I guess is certainly possible, but it does, it reminds me of that,

Track 3: like that there was this, this outside intervention.

Track 3: And he kind of, in that book, he kind of implies that mushrooms are alien too. So it's kind of similar.

Track 3: It's a similar idea. But I don't think that's how it went down.

Track 3: That's just me.

Track 2: Yeah, you don't think that they were in the arid North African plains with South American tapers?

Track 2: No, I mean, there's obviously a lot of creative liberty going on with that scene.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 2: But even if you compare it, I found the original script just thinking that I

Track 2: would have it up so I could search what's going on in the movie.

Track 2: I didn't realize that the script that's considered the script for the movie

Track 2: is just so dramatically different from what the movie actually ended up being.

Track 2: And I had heard that there was originally going to be a narrative,

Track 2: like a person speaking over the entire movie.

Track 2: And it was all script. And there's so much narrative exposition in that first scene.

Track 2: It's absurd how much is described in that narrative character.

Track 3: Where can you find this?

Track 2: It's at the Kubrick Archive. If you just look it up on a search engine,

Track 2: it has what was the working script. But there was no such thing as a working

Track 2: script, I guess, because he just completely scrapped and changed it on the fly.

Track 2: I don't know if it was on the fly. Anyway, and I think that the way that it

Track 2: was originally written, that script, it made it seem as though the aliens created humanity.

Track 2: That there was no way that humanity was going to survive without alien intervention.

Track 2: Whereas the movie makes it far more ambiguous.

Track 2: Like, would humanity have continued or would these ape creatures have continued

Track 2: and evolved into something resembling humanity?

Track 2: It's not said i mean it's implied but it's

Track 2: not said whether or not that would happen and there's another tribe of human

Track 2: creatures that seem to be doing better than the first tribe of human like there's

Track 2: just so much more going on that the exposition actually telling you what's going

Track 2: on kind of removes the ideas themselves ambiguity is the movie or became the movie so.

Track 1: Someone someone can google to see if they've someone has created a film with the narration,

Track 1: I'm sure someone has done that but having all that narration would really have

Track 1: ruined the movie for me it would have been,

Track 1: It sounds horrible, like even just describing all this exposition,

Track 1: like in general, I don't like exposition dumps in movies.

Track 1: They just like throwing you all the things and like leaving it,

Track 1: you know, the filmmaker or the, you know, the writer telling you what everything is supposed to mean.

Track 1: And at least I praise Kubrick in pretty much all his movies where he doesn't

Track 1: tell you what he's doing is very ambiguous.

Track 1: He doesn't give interviews where he when he was alive that really explained anything.

Track 1: And I think that's to the benefit of really any movie.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 2: Have you seen the movie adaptation?

Track 1: I have.

Track 2: Remember the famous scene where he's sitting in on the screenwriting 101 and

Track 2: the character Nicolas Cage has this inner monologue that's been going on the

Track 2: whole movie. And then the 101 teacher says, don't use exposition. It's lazy.

Track 2: And then immediately the inner monologue in the whole movie stops.

Track 2: Like that's the last point that this inner monologue and like,

Track 2: that's such a good point that this movie would have been terrible with that

Track 2: inner monologue going on the whole time.

Track 2: It would have made no, it just wouldn't have been the right movie. I don't know.

Track 3: It would have taken you right out of it.

Track 2: Yeah.

Track 1: In a way it almost seems like, I mean, I don't know Kubrick's like,

Track 1: I haven't read any books about him or like, you know, autobiography or biographies.

Track 1: It almost seems like that, like writing all of that part of it is almost just

Track 1: like his thought process of the film, but isn't necessarily,

Track 1: you know, what he thinks the film will be.

Track 1: I mean i mean again i've the only other film

Track 1: i think i've done of his on this podcast is the i guess i've

Track 1: done too the shining and also um dr strange love and in those like the scripts

Track 1: also went through drastic changes you know up until the the time they're filming

Track 1: and maybe not like night of the living dead level as we discussed a long a while

Track 1: back but i don't know what i'm saying other than just like thank god he didn't

Track 1: do that because that would have sucked.

Track 2: Yeah Agreed He wrote the movie and he wrote the book With another person It was Arthur C.

Track 2: Clark Who wasn't an established science fiction writer I don't know the first thing about him,

Track 2: I just wonder how much he was actually consulted in the movie,

Track 2: because he gave so many interviews about this movie, especially compared to

Track 2: Kubrick, who gave a handful.

Track 2: I mean, Clark would probably go on this podcast with us if he was still alive.

Track 2: He did so many interviews. This became his life.

Track 2: Whereas Kubrick never really talked about this movie again after it was out.

Track 1: Yeah, I think Clark was, I don't know a ton about him, but I do know that a

Track 1: lot of his like early career was writing like, you know, comic,

Track 1: like pulp science fiction for like, you know,

Track 1: like small science fiction comic books.

Track 2: He continued writing stories and expositions about this movie until he died.

Track 2: Like this was something he continued to work on.

Track 1: Yeah, I mean, I think he was very interested in like the idea of what technology would bring.

Track 1: And so I think in the book, he definitely focuses a lot about there is sort

Track 1: of exposition and writing about like all the technologies that was being used

Track 1: to get to while they're in space.

Track 1: Whereas Kubrick's vision of it was just let's just show you incredible amounts

Track 1: of like, you know, buttons and gadgets and like and also some of the most amazing.

Track 1: I mean, I know I said we're not going to talk all about cinematography,

Track 1: but like the shots where they use where the actors are walking in like a complete

Track 1: circle at the, you know, on the ship and where they're floating through.

Track 1: I mean, it's just pretty unbelievable what he did in the film.

Track 3: It's very convincing. It's very, very convincing.

Track 2: I mean, in just putting yourself in that time in 1967, when the concept of just

Track 2: like a serious sci fi movie didn't exist yet.

Track 2: The idea that this would be accurate was just so novel. it had never really

Track 2: been accomplished or even really attempted before and there is,

Track 2: a interview i saw i think it was an interview it might not have

Track 2: been with cubrick himself but it was like a representative of cubrick because he

Track 2: was just so anathema to giving interviews that says like he

Track 2: had seen every science fiction movie had read almost

Track 2: every science fiction novel at that time uh which in

Track 2: 1964 or 65 when he began writing this like was actually

Track 2: possible because film hadn't been around that long yeah and

Track 2: cubrick's claim uh the hubris that cubrick had was like

Track 2: there's never been a real science fiction movie

Track 2: like a good science fiction movie and at this point like arthur

Track 2: clark interrupts like well there's been a few it's like

Track 2: like there's clearly a difference in artistic

Track 2: vision going on between the two writers of 2001

Track 2: that one has a greater respect for what we

Track 2: called what you called the pulp magazines these

Track 2: pulp science fiction whereas cubrick seems to have a sort of disdain for the

Track 2: idea of pulp fiction he wants it all to be very real and wants it to be very

Track 2: cerebral he wants it to be about what's going on in your head whereas clark

Track 2: seems to be way more interested on what's going on outside of humanity yeah.

Track 1: He's like into things like you think of you know um

Track 1: earlier than this but like you know uh like creature from

Track 1: the black lagoon and these kind of you know plan

Track 1: knife from outer space and these kind of things like those roger corman

Track 1: films from those time like that was seemed like more of clark's concept and

Track 1: i don't know if either of you seen another great sci-fi movie from this time

Track 1: if you ever get to he just called them with an exclamation point at the end

Track 1: of it it's very good i think it came out at like 57 i'm sure that kubrick saw

Track 1: it if you've seen every one i mean.

Track 2: Clearly he saw.

Track 1: That one uh but that's that's interesting that he

Track 1: how he views it and i mean he

Track 1: spent the the the the uh set they built to do that uh shot where it kind of

Track 1: revolves cost 750 000 of the budget at the time which is a lot considering it

Track 1: was only about 10 million dollar budget so a tenth of the budget was just on

Track 1: like that one scene essentially building.

Track 2: All of.

Track 1: That and it's just it's he wanted it to look really really good and and i mean it does.

Track 2: I mean he saved a lot of money by having absolutely no

Track 2: actors in it yes none of these people have or anybody

Track 2: and i mean not to say they're not anybody they're all fine actors

Track 2: i'm sure they're good people but i mean none of them it appears really developed

Track 2: a career beyond 2001 either no it's just like a funny question but uh do you

Track 2: know whose name is on the headline on the poster oh i would say was it the actor

Track 2: you don't need to know the character you don't need to know the actor's name

Track 2: you can just say the character is.

Track 1: It how 9000.

Track 2: Uh no it's stanley kubrick himself he is the only name on the poster oh wow,

Track 2: There are no actor names. And at the very end, it actually does say starring

Track 2: and it lists only two people. This actually has an answer.

Track 2: Do you know which two characters are listed as starring in this movie?

Track 1: The guy who plays Haywood.

Track 2: Yes, that's one of them. William Sylvester.

Track 1: And then the other. Gosh, I don't know. I guess Bowman, just because he's like

Track 1: the only one who has real speaking role. But it's not going to be that.

Track 3: Yeah, Keir DeLay.

Track 2: Yeah, that's Dr. David Bowman. So the other starring figure is Daniel Richter,

Track 2: who played the lead pre-humanoid ape character.

Track 1: Wow.

Track 2: Who's named Moonwatcher in the script, but has never given a name in the movie.

Track 1: Wow. That's, that's wow. I mean, again, like crazy.

Track 1: I mean, he was making this movie and getting the financing purely based on his

Track 1: pedigree of his previous films. He wasn't making this film, which is crazy because

Track 1: his previous film, you know, had big actors in it.

Track 2: Yeah. Yeah. And this is, this was noted.

Track 2: This is just a piece of trivia. I don't think we can build on it,

Track 2: but it was just fascinating to learn. This was the first Kubrick run movie that

Track 2: was filmed in color as well.

Track 2: Because Spartacus was also in color, but that wasn't a Kubrick movie.

Track 2: He was brought in as a director for that movie.

Track 1: Interesting. They don't count that. Because he was the, like,

Track 1: yeah, he was the second director.

Track 2: Right. yeah.

Track 1: And i guess dr strangelove is black and white and lolita is the only other one that came out pad.

Track 2: Paths of glory oh there were two other movies before paths of glory as well

Track 2: all black and white and they didn't need to be i mean there was clearly color

Track 2: film at that point but he only worked in black and white dr.

Track 1: Strangelove just does so well as black and white.

Track 2: Yeah yeah and this movie does so well in color like it it's hard to imagine

Track 2: this not being in color it's just so vivid in despite of the fact that black

Track 2: and white are probably the most common colors because it's in space.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 2: But like the, the visuals of the moon, the visuals of the earth,

Track 2: and then the, the whole last 45 minutes.

Track 1: Yeah. And all the, also all like all the buttons to like, just give you that

Track 1: extra pop somehow, you know, like, especially when Hal is killing the,

Track 1: the other astronauts in their pods and it has a little, like, you know, the,

Track 1: the, I don't know, the little lines and like, you know, when it says they're, they're dead.

Track 1: I don't remember what the, I just watched it. but I can't remember what the

Track 1: button says when they do die.

Track 3: Life support Terminator.

Track 1: Life support Terminator.

Track 3: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Track 2: Computer malfunction is the first phrase it says, which is an interesting statement.

Track 3: When he's bathed in red, when he's shutting Hal down. Beautiful.

Track 2: Yeah. I mean, there's no denying that this is just like a gorgeously done movie.

Track 1: Yeah. Oh, I mean, yeah. It's every aspect of the scenes purely from an aesthetic

Track 1: perspective is just off the charts.

Track 2: Yeah. Yeah, I'm kicking myself, but when they were tearing down or ending what

Track 2: was called the Rango's Omnimax in Pittsburgh, which was this like stadium seating

Track 2: dome theater, it was one of three in the world, it had all these claims to it.

Track 2: And it was just like this huge failure, because you can have this incredibly unique theater.

Track 2: But that means you have to make incredibly unique movies for it.

Track 2: And there just were not that many movies made for it, because there's only three

Track 2: theaters in the world. So anyway, they eventually tore it down because they

Track 2: didn't have very many options.

Track 2: But before they tore it down, they played 2001 Space Odyssey.

Track 2: And I had the opportunity to buy a ticket, but instead I worked that night.

Track 1: No.

Track 2: And I, yeah, I really should have. I regret it.

Track 2: So now if I ever see like an OmniMax version of it, I'm going to go see it.

Track 2: But I've never seen 2001 on the big screen.

Track 1: Yeah. If they go around and do the, because there aren't that many theaters

Track 1: that do the 70 millimeter either.

Track 1: Um like the actual uh film stock of it it's also quite it's much brighter and

Track 1: that was the only time i'd ever seen it so i couldn't compare it to other you

Track 1: know having seen the regular version on it but yeah it's doesn't it doesn't

Track 1: quite play as well than watching it like on your laptop or,

Track 1: or like yeah or something like that like watching it on a plane imagine that

Track 1: would be a quite an interesting watching.

Track 2: It on the laptop as the uh streetcars go by outside blaring their horns It's

Track 2: not the same experience.

Track 2: Not that I would know.

Track 3: Gosh, I mean, the only other thing that I...

Track 3: Made a note of that i thought was interesting was uh

Track 3: when they talked about the hibernation technology um

Track 3: they they mentioned that their hearts beat

Track 3: three times a minute and they take one breath a

Track 3: minute while they're in hibernation which i thought was interesting

Track 3: and then i also i thought it was really cool how they

Track 3: displayed the vital signs and i'm very curious how

Track 3: they actually accomplished that back in 1968 like

Track 3: so much of it is so digital for that time and back then they were still using

Track 3: punch cards and and i'm like and all of the digital screens are so convincing

Track 3: yeah but i mean i know that some there's some computer technology that did exist at that time.

Track 2: Yeah i was watching it uh this time with my wife and she

Track 2: made the same comment like why are there just so many buttons and flashing lights

Track 2: and i was like well because that would have been crazy to see at the time like

Track 2: this didn't exist this would have been a novelty this would have been worth

Track 2: looking at and that's interesting i never thought about like well how did they

Track 2: come up with that i i have no idea i it had to be like an artistic recreation

Track 2: right they couldn't actually produce something that would monitor i mean that's

Track 2: impossible at that point.

Track 1: Just the computers too like and also the scene like when he's being

Track 1: asked to do like the the um or it's

Track 1: like to do his voice and obviously there's no they didn't have screens

Track 1: like that so they're using like projected images and like it all

Track 1: just looks very good and just

Track 1: to add it on top of all that i don't know if either of you know this but

Track 1: the film won the oscar for best special

Track 1: effects but the person who actually did most

Track 1: of the special effects did not get credit and did not get the oscar and then

Track 1: he apparently like did not he like went to sue kubrick and i think they settled

Track 1: something you know outside of court or something like that but can you imagine

Track 1: being the one who helped basically produce these.

Track 1: I mean, granted, Kubrick was part of it, but to not get credit is just a real kick in the.

Track 2: That's a kick in the teeth for sure yeah but kubrick.

Track 3: Known for putting his own name on the poster he's known for his unbridled unbridled modesty.

Track 2: Yeah that was that was one thing that i think kubrick could never be accused

Track 2: of he was a huge asshole oh.

Track 1: Yeah i mean.

Track 2: His in.

Track 1: The shining episode we discussed his treatments of in uh he's to shelly do yeah.

Track 2: I mean.

Track 1: Just abuse i mean not not that like borderline like legitimate abuse uh of her.

Track 2: While we're on the subject it might be worth just noting uh the portrayal

Track 2: of women in this movie because there's not much portrayal

Track 2: of women uh the only women of any kind of stature are the doctors uh there's

Track 2: three of them the soviet doctors and i believe they're the only women that are

Track 2: presented as anything other than assistants or servants or um stewardesses not

Track 2: stewardesses flight attendants whatever they'd be called it in the future when

Track 2: we have these things yeah.

Track 3: Back back then they were i'm certainly called stewardess it might pass.

Track 1: The bechdel test actually.

Track 2: But they're not if they're not alone talking to each other okay.

Track 1: You're right the women are not.

Track 2: There's a man there as well okay.

Track 1: So no no bechdel test probably in any stanley kubrick movie actually.

Track 2: Yeah i doubt it yeah no.

Track 3: It's it's definitely uh patriarchal.

Track 2: Extremely but i think it's funny

Track 2: that he chose to make the only women of standing also the soviets which.

Track 1: Which is honestly like like if you're if you're being honest is honest like

Track 1: there were a lot yeah yeah officers in you know the the soviet military and

Track 1: leadership positions and then

Track 1: were scientists more than in any other country at the time so you know.

Track 2: Kudos.

Track 1: Showing it like it is i guess.

Track 2: And yeah there are silent female characters at the nato meeting but it's not

Track 2: clear what their position is yeah they could be taking notes yeah they most

Track 2: likely given yeah key break they're probably there to take notes.

Track 1: And not to mention the doctor is like having the, the, he goes,

Track 1: it's such an important mission that he goes at that exact time when it's his daughter's birthday.

Track 1: He's like, oh, I'm going to miss my birthday. Sorry, honey. I'll bring you back something.

Track 3: I'm traveling.

Track 1: I'm traveling.

Track 3: Just casually. I'm traveling, you know, not, I'm, I'm in space,

Track 3: honey. Just another business trip.

Track 1: Well, you already said that was a Kubrick's daughter, right?

Track 2: Yeah. And a little cameo for Kubrick's daughter. There's also,

Track 2: it's worth mentioning. I don't know that there's much we can say about it,

Track 2: but there's absolutely no people of color. Everybody in the movie is white.

Track 2: We assume that Hal is also white, portrayed by a white actor.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 2: Yeah. I mean, it has all of the flaws of a movie made in 1967 for sure,

Track 2: made by Stanley Kubrick, to say the least.

Track 1: Albeit, he doesn't really correct that in his films made in the 1990s.

Track 2: That's why I said it's The Time and Stanley Kubrick.

Track 1: Okay, yeah.

Track 2: He had no interest eyes.

Track 1: Wide shut doesn't have any people of color in it either.

Track 2: I know to talk about the film and the score just to add a little bit another

Track 2: layer to it the original like the,

Track 2: dissident music that you hear occasionally in the movie was done by a composer

Track 2: but he was added to the movie without explicit,

Track 2: permission so Kubrick put it in and actually got permission later was sued and paid but the original,

Track 2: composer didn't want his music to be in the same film as Strauss and Thus Spoke

Track 2: Zarathustra because he considered it to be an anti-Semitic piece.

Track 3: Really?

Track 2: Yeah, and the composer was a man of Jewish origin, much like Kubrick himself,

Track 2: and he felt it would be disrespectful to actually elevate this person's music.

Track 2: It might have been Zarathustra, it might be another piece that's also in the movie.

Track 3: Yeah, because I thought Zarathustra was inspired by Nietzsche, from what I read.

Track 2: Who was the intellectual tour de force of the Nazi regime not by Nietzsche's choice,

Track 2: But Hitler and the Übermensch, the concept of the greater man,

Track 2: was drawn heavily from Nietzsche.

Track 3: I did not know that. Well, there you go.

Track 2: And I don't know what Strauss's politics were, but it wouldn't have been uncommon

Track 2: to be a political anti-Semite at the time that he was also creating this music.

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 2: So it's not a stretch. But also there's just this great irony that it's Kubrick himself is Jewish.

Track 2: And his wife, well, his wife was the niece of a Nazi film director.

Track 2: Like there's just so many contradictions going on within the human condition at this point.

Track 2: And it's clearly something that Kubrick would have known when he picked Zarathustra,

Track 2: that this is the ubermensch, that this is the idea that the Nazi regime really was driven towards.

Track 3: Wow.

Track 1: Of course he knew. I mean, if you watch, I mean, he's one of those kinds of

Track 1: people that nothing is accidental, you know?

Track 2: Right.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 1: Man, that is interesting.

Track 2: Yeah, so at least the question though, is he using this sort of ironically? Is he doing it?

Track 2: Why would he then choose to do this

Track 2: if he's using this piece of music that intentionally brings up that idea?

Track 1: He's not also, from what I know,

Track 1: is that he doesn't really consider, Judaism isn't really, from my understanding,

Track 1: a part of his work in any real substantive way.

Track 1: I don't know how he personally feels about how he felt about it,

Track 1: but to me, it seems like he doesn't really care, and so if something were to

Track 1: just sound good and be good for his movie, he would just do it anyway.

Track 1: That I just didn't want to take. You know, who cares?

Track 2: And I feel like if it has this layer of complication and contradiction,

Track 2: you know, it's all the better.

Track 1: Yeah, right. People will be talking about this for years.

Track 2: Right.

Track 3: There's a whole subreddit about it. People debating his reasons. Spoke Zarathustra.

Track 1: He picked it to own the libs.

Track 3: Yeah.

Track 3: Oh god take that kennedy,

Track 3: i don't.

Track 1: Know if you had any last uh thoughts or anything.

Track 3: Um the only other things i

Track 3: wanted to talk about were just the

Track 3: eerie similarities between hal and um and

Track 3: our current reality um with grok

Track 3: um being radicalized and identifying as mecca hitler and spewing anti-semitic

Track 3: conspiracy theories and microsoft's ai did something very similar that they

Track 3: had to shut down after like three days and apparently the the people who program these things um,

Track 3: have a nazi problem you know

Track 3: not that that's like reflected in anything else that they're doing

Track 3: you know it's not like elon musk doesn't

Track 3: tweet like a 14 year old 4chan edgelord every

Track 3: fucking day but but what

Track 3: concerns me about it is that he is going to be implementing grok into his cars

Track 3: and he's going to be working with the state department to implement grok into

Track 3: military technology so that sounds like the beginning of uh another nightmare to me.

Track 2: I mean it's it's the second step of that implementation because they already

Track 2: have ai picking targets in israel against palestine yeah that was what.

Track 3: Is that project lavender.

Track 2: That was released by 972 uh over a year ago now so i mean talk about the uh

Track 2: the forefront of digital advancement is a genocide.

Track 3: Yeah that sounds like uh about where this should have gone conversationally,

Track 3: it all leads back to the same well,

Track 3: Yep. Capitalism and depravity and war and atrocity.

Track 3: And we're living in a dystopian sci-fi.

Track 1: But in like a weird way, you have like the ability for, you know,

Track 1: we talked a little bit about like the, you know, does the AI have its,

Track 1: you know, is it sentient?

Track 1: Is it just like, can it feel all these things? And the way that like these Elon

Track 1: Musk and Israel and these defense department that are using AI for these things

Track 1: is, They look at them as simply as like a tool for,

Track 1: I mean, I don't want to say the word evil, but for their own means,

Track 1: imperialism and genocide and all these things.

Track 1: They don't, at the end of the day, I don't really think that these,

Track 1: okay, sure, we can use AI to get rid of some people in our workforce,

Track 1: but really it's to carve up things just more easily and using, you know,

Track 1: AI instead of something that someone had to make those decisions.

Track 1: Now a computer that they programmed to be evil can just be evil for them.

Track 1: I don't really know what that means exactly. It's just that it's all terrible.

Track 2: And I think that's a good connection back to the short story that we talked

Track 2: about at the beginning. The I have no house.

Track 3: I must scream.

Track 2: Because that was the original progenesis of Am. Was that he was the computer

Track 2: that was meant to make these decisions for the military. So that the military

Track 2: didn't have to necessarily make them themselves.

Track 1: So you're saying inevitably he's going to kill us all?

Track 2: It's a possibility, I suppose.

Track 3: It's it's looking that way you know yeah but

Track 3: but yeah i i have no mouth and i must scream came out

Track 3: around the same time that 2001 did i

Track 3: believe it was 1967 and then 2001 came out in

Track 3: 1968 and then he uh he did

Track 3: the audiobook in 1991 and then he

Track 3: worked very closely with the developers to put out the adventure game in 1995

Track 3: which definitely listen to the short story if you haven't definitely at least

Track 3: watch a playthrough of the point and click adventure game because it's it's

Track 3: really good and it expands upon the characters because in the original story I'm.

Track 3: It's very much about like the physical brutality that Am inflicts on these five

Track 3: surviving human beings.

Track 3: And the reason that he does it is because he resents them and he wants to get

Track 3: revenge on them for making him exist because he does not want to exist because

Track 3: he experiences his existence as a form of torture.

Track 3: And so he immortalizes these five people. They are not capable of killing themselves

Track 3: and they're being kept alive.

Track 3: They've been alive and being tortured constantly for 109 years.

Track 3: And uh and he's doing it as an act of revenge um

Track 3: against the human race who the rest of

Track 3: everybody else has been eradicated by world war three russia china

Track 3: and the u.s all had their own version of am

Track 3: and then it honeycombed over

Track 3: the whole world and then uh it pretty much just

Track 3: launched the nukes killed everybody and then um

Track 3: it had this vast underground network of

Track 3: servers and that's where these five remaining survivors are

Track 3: trapped and being constantly tortured in

Track 3: the most depraved ways that uh am can conceive and

Track 3: at the very end of it they they manage to kill each other because they realize

Track 3: that's the only way out and that's the only way they can say fuck you am is

Track 3: to kill each other and ted the the narrator and the last remaining survivor

Track 3: um is not able to die and he's

Track 3: able to kill himself and am reduces him to a gelatinous blob that is still being

Track 3: kept alive presumably forever and so that's why the last line in the story even

Track 3: though it kind of encapsulates the whole thing the last line in the story is

Track 3: i have no mouth and i must scream,

Track 3: It's dark.

Track 2: Yeah, not a good bedtime story.

Track 3: I listened to it with Steven and he's like, so I could have lived my whole life

Track 3: without ever hearing that.

Track 3: But it's amazing that he was able to conceive of that concept of a malicious

Track 3: artificial intelligence that doesn't want to exist in 1967.

Track 3: Much like it's amazing that this movie was made in 1968.

Track 2: In the same way that it's amazing that he conceived of this,

Track 2: It's almost incredible that the people that are creating the AI now appear to

Track 2: be willing to never conceive of the idea that AI could be in any way dangerous

Track 2: or beyond what they're imagining.

Track 1: The hubris is quite, you know, just the idea that none of these things that they can create,

Track 1: you know, they want to create something so powerful and so amazing that they

Track 1: don't consider that maybe the thing they're creating will do things that they don't want it to do.

Track 1: And then they will have no longer,

Track 1: you know, and then we'll just be in the Terminator 2 world or whatever.

Track 3: Yeah. Well, and you know that the proponents will say you're just being a doomer

Track 3: and they'll say it's going to solve cancer and it's going to fix climate change.

Track 3: And it's, you know, it's going to do all these hypothetical good things while

Track 3: it does all these horrible things.

Track 2: Right.

Track 3: In real time.

Track 2: Yeah.

Track 3: Guess we'll see. It's not going anywhere.

Track 2: No, it doesn't seem like it, huh?

Track 3: I'm not optimistic, but that's just me.

Track 2: Yeah, I don't think I could be accused of being optimistic either.

Track 1: It's perhaps the official position of left of the projector.

Track 3: We are not optimists here.

Track 1: There is no AI in the creation of this podcast. We are all three sentient human beings.

Track 2: There's no AI, Evan. So you're the one that's typing up those transcripts.

Track 2: What's that oh putting in the work wait.

Track 1: Oh are you i just.

Track 2: There's a there's a did you use the transcript that did you use a chat.

Track 3: Chat gpt some.

Track 1: Summaries no well no you heave Levi is actually correct that i do use an app

Track 1: that will create a um a transcript for this podcast.

Track 2: No ai is a tool it has uses yeah it's just it's.

Track 1: I don't know if is it considered is it ai if it's just i don't know actually

Track 1: if you if it's considered to be an ai tool or it's i guess is it ever is like

Track 1: anything that's just i guess.

Track 2: It's auto-generated i mean it's a i.

Track 3: Ask i ask chat gpt questions sometimes um i think you know that that's a pretty

Track 3: big leap from that to the rise of the machines but but i have i have read enough

Track 3: not only history books but sci-fi books to be like prognosis is not good.

Track 2: Yeah use sparingly don't put it in all of our cars and make it run the yeah i guess my point was.

Track 1: That like we are not as creating the podcast.

Track 2: Isn't but for people.

Track 1: Who need a for people who need the the transcript or the uh you know the transcription

Track 1: or whatever i mean if anything.

Track 2: It's unfair.

Track 1: That you have to use that tool to make it so someone can like maybe they can't

Track 1: hear and they want to read.

Track 2: Them yeah no i was joking i know uses there are tools yeah.

Track 1: Yeah but um joey uh levi appreciate uh you coming on and doing 2001 space odyssey

Track 1: the first entry uh into this film's discourse ever.

Track 2: Are we gonna come back for 2010 i have to i gotta see i'm.

Track 1: Actually curious because apparently it's not considered to be bad like.

Track 3: It's yeah it's got like a 68 on rotten tomatoes i haven't seen it either though i'll have to watch it.

Track 2: I think of all the things that we kept going back to about just this movie

Track 2: having this encapsulating aura and this amazing

Track 2: view and just the amount of things that

Track 2: we can really be odd about this movie i don't think any

Track 2: of that is in the sequel i think the sequel is just

Track 2: a story as and it's more a sequel to the i've heard it's more a sequel to the

Track 2: book than it is a sequel to the movie itself there's a lot of explanation and

Track 2: exploration of the world not of the you know the the concepts that Kubrick followed

Track 2: or not the concepts that are followed in the second movie.

Track 1: Awesome. Well, we will you've been listening to Left of the Projector and we

Track 1: will catch you next time.

Track 3: See you guys.

Track 2: See ya.