Aoife O'Brien [00:00:02]:

Melissa, welcome to the happier at work podcast. I'm so thrilled to have this conversation with you today. I think it's so, so badly needed, especially when it comes to the workplace. Do you want to let people know a little bit about you, your background, and how you got into doing what you're doing today?

Melissa Doman [00:00:19]:

Yes. Absolutely. I've been so looking forward to this. And, so, my name is Melissa Doman. Folks call me Mel. I'm an organizational psychologist, former clinical mental health therapist, and author of this book right behind me. Yes. You can talk about mental health at work.

Melissa Doman [00:00:35]:

Here's why and how to do it really well. So I work with companies, leaders, and individuals, teaching them the skills of how to have constructive and realistic conversations about mental health in the workplace and team dynamics and communication as well. So my clients range from really large organizations like, Google, Dow Jones, Estee Lauder, to midsize organizations like the Orlando City Soccer Club and, all the way down to tiny companies and everything in between. So I basically teach people that learning how to talk about mental health at work is a language we all need to know how to speak regardless of title, tenure, or industry. And, haven't lost anybody yet. So the reason that I started doing this is I used to be a practicing clinical therapist, and I found that while I really appreciated the work I was doing, that it felt like I was treating patients in a broken system and a broken narrative, where at the time, you know, this was 10, 11 years ago, that people would speak with me, you know, behind closed doors about their mental health. They certainly wouldn't talk about it in the workplace, and a lot of them felt like their workplace cultures were torturing them to begin with. So I thought, well, let me make an impact at the source.

Melissa Doman [00:02:04]:

And I I made a a very difficult decision to leave clinical work and go straight into, you know, very traditional industrial organizational psychology. So, basically, helping people share their toys a bit better at work, you know, not be crappy to each other, focusing on leadership development, emotional intelligence, communication, all those traditional areas. But the minute I would mention the term mental health or even stress, people would proverbially hiss at me as if it was a dirty word. And I says, why you gotta make it weird? This is like, it what are we doing? So fast forward to when my husband and I moved to the UK in 2017, and I was on a people and leadership development contract. And they said, you used to be a therapist. Could you do a mental health awareness campaign for us? I said, absolutely. So typically speaking, their in house workshops get about 10, 11, 12 people. 75 people turned up to this event, And I thought, oh, I think we've stumbled on something here.

Melissa Doman [00:03:10]:

And then there were repeats, and then this, speaking agency reached out to me to do some video series. And I thought, okay. The market is telling me it's ready. The market is telling me people want to talk about this. So then I just kind of dove in in 2017 and really just kept subspecializing in mental health at work, having gone from being the therapist on the back end to seeing these conversations on the front end, and it just kind of exploded from there. And so I've been subspecializing in mental health at work since, 2017, and I really appreciate having that former experience of being a clinician and then doing, you know, this front end training, consulting, advising in organizational psychology, because sitting on both sides of the fence helps me to teach businesses why to talk about mental health and and the practical skills of how to do that.

Aoife O'Brien [00:04:15]:

And maybe we start there, like, why should we be talking about this stuff at work?

Melissa Doman [00:04:20]:

Gosh. I think the question is, how could we not?

Aoife O'Brien [00:04:23]:

Mhmm.

Melissa Doman [00:04:25]:

Especially these days, you know, talking about mental health in the workplace has always been important, but the permission wasn't there. Yeah. And the quality of our mental health globally is going down. Rates of mental illness are going up. The social division and tribalism that seems to be a global epidemic and rising stress levels. There's so many things that are weighing on us as organisms in this ecosystem. And the way I look at it is it's very tough out there, and it's really tough in here. For those of you listening to this episode, I'm pointing at my head.

Melissa Doman [00:05:02]:

And I just don't understand how we can pretend to ignore that and not teach people how to have those conversations with the people they spend the most time with each week, generally speaking, the people they work with.

Aoife O'Brien [00:05:16]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:05:16]:

So I think talking about mental health is critical to overall well-being, productivity, and personal and professional functioning.

Aoife O'Brien [00:05:25]:

Yeah. I'd I'd love to because you've mentioned a few things there. And I know before we started recording, we said we would define some of the terminology that we use. So maybe we can talk about that. But I'd also like to know, like, what caused the shift? Like, when I think about past work, I'm thinking mad men. I'm thinking, you know, drinking whiskey in the afternoon. And then, you know, we're kind of blurry in the middle. And now we're here, and we're openly talking about mental health at work.

Aoife O'Brien [00:05:53]:

So I'd love to know. Let's talk about some of the terminology, and then let's talk about, like, how did we make that transition from Yeah. We don't ever talk about this stuff. Work is work and work is hard to I'm suffering, and I need to talk to someone about it and work needs to know.

Melissa Doman [00:06:10]:

Yeah. So one of the stories that I always tell people is when I was doing a keynote in the UK just before the pandemic, And this, middle aged British gentleman, you know, English gentleman came up to me afterwards, and we were chatting about what I had shared. And he leaned in and whispered, I have mental health. And I said, are you trying to say you have a mental illness? He said, yes. And I said, you don't need to whisper about either. So it is still treated like a dirty word even though mental health, medically speaking, is something we all have. Animals have mental health, for God's sakes. So mental health is your baseline social, emotional, and cognitive functioning.

Melissa Doman [00:07:04]:

Everyone has mental health. So this ranges from positive to neutral to negative emotions. I always talk about the feeling wheel from doctor Gloria Wilcox, w illcox, where you see that all of these emotions that we come preprogrammed with out of the box for a very clear evolutionary purpose, to let us know what's going on, how to respond to stimuli, if something is wrong, if we need support. So, have you seen Inside Out?

Aoife O'Brien [00:07:37]:

I think I have. Yes. It's about the emotions, and it's an animated one with and each one is different color, and it's a different emotion. Correct. Yes.

Melissa Doman [00:07:45]:

Correct. They just came out with the sequel, and it was just so lovely and wonderful, and I'm just chomping at the bit for a third installment. So those all show that they play a very clear purpose. We're not supposed to be happy all the time. We're not supposed to have any dominant emotion all the time. And what I love about it is that it shows that we have this interplay of so many different competing emotions because that's that's just humanity, and

Aoife O'Brien [00:08:21]:

none of

Melissa Doman [00:08:21]:

them are clinical in nature. And so even if we have mental health struggles, it doesn't mean something is wrong with you. Everyone has struggles, you know, which don't meet clinical criteria, and even if they do, who gives a shit? Seriously. 1 in 4 people prior to the pandemic had a diagnosed mental health condition. I know that data is going in the wrong direction since 2020. Not looking great. No. And so mental illness, also known as mental ill health, mental health condition, is a diagnosable, clinical behavioral disorder that impacts your thinking, emotions, cognitions, behaviors, social interactions.

Melissa Doman [00:09:05]:

There is close to 300 different types of mental health conditions.

Aoife O'Brien [00:09:09]:

Most people who have them, you would

Melissa Doman [00:09:10]:

not know unless they told you because most people who struggle with a mental health condition are very high functioning. Mhmm. So they work. They pay their bills. They have relationships. They, you know, have children. They travel. They do all these sorts of things, and they have a mental health condition.

Melissa Doman [00:09:31]:

So popular ones that people know are, you know, any form of depression or anxiety disorder, eating disorders, PTSD, personality disorders, any form of addiction. There are lots of different types. And, again, most people wouldn't know unless you asked because the way that mental illness is depicted in media, film, TV, or really in social circles is not indicative of how most people experience a mental health condition. There are some people who it's it's quite mild, there are some people where it is debilitatingly severe, and most people are somewhere in between. Yeah. So it is so easy for people to completely misunderstand the nature of a mental illness because it's an illness that affects the organ that governs who we are and how we act. Yeah. So people So oh my gosh, I'm breathing so hard.

Melissa Doman [00:10:47]:

I feel like I have COPD, or my stomach is so, you know, unsettled about this meeting. I feel like I have Crohn's disease. No one's gonna say that.

Aoife O'Brien [00:11:00]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:11:01]:

But when it comes to mental health or mental illness, it's so pliable and personally biased and misunderstood that it is a total free for all Yeah. When it comes to that wording. And I think that that is a detriment to the mental health at work conversation is when people don't have the right information about what they're talking about.

Aoife O'Brien [00:11:21]:

When they're saying something like I have an or that's causing me anxiety, but actually it's not that severe, or I'm feeling really depressed about this, but actually it's not depression. Is that what you mean?

Melissa Doman [00:11:33]:

So it's partially that, and it's also the co opting of language that is not appropriate. So you can say, I'm feeling anxious. Yeah. You can say, you know, I'm feeling really down or depressed, but it's not the same as having an anxiety disorder or a depression disorder. Yeah. So, for example, there are people who will say, oh my god, I'm so OCD Yeah. About this, and they go, oh, are you? Are you? Or there are cases when people are acting in certain ways, saying certain things in the workplace that people don't understand, so they falsely attribute meaning to those behaviors and use the wrong labels. So people who do have a mental health condition, if they hear these sorts of things, what would make them feel like it's safe enough to speak up about what's going on for them when people say stupid things that are inaccurate all the time.

Aoife O'Brien [00:12:38]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where the conversation comes in. That's why it becomes so important to talk about this, to talk about the language that we use. Melissa, I have a question around identity. So, like, when you're talking about essentially, if something is impacting on our ability to be able to connect with other people, We're so unwilling to admit to that because it impacts on our perception of ourselves. Would that be fair to say? And it's it's so wrapped up in our identity.

Aoife O'Brien [00:13:13]:

I don't want to be labeled as someone who has a mental health disorder, a mental health condition, a mental health illness, whatever it might be.

Melissa Doman [00:13:24]:

Yeah. And also I think that plays into your previous question before about how did we get here to talk about this topic in the workplace. And I think what I'd like to start with is it it was born of necessity. Yeah. So I'm an elder millennial. I think the term is also zillenial. Okay. Early eighties babies are in between gen x and and millennials.

Melissa Doman [00:13:50]:

So the joke is, we're the last childhood with an analog our last generation with an analog childhood and a digital adulthood. So we were all raised by baby boomers.

Aoife O'Brien [00:14:03]:

And

Melissa Doman [00:14:04]:

so you started to see, you know, with gen x folks, you know, the older millennials like myself, where depending on who raised you, your culture, your community, the country you live in, all of these things that shape our identities. What was interesting is that despite any of those identifying factors, there was this pressure that was building and building and building in the newer generations of seeing how their parents were suffering in some cases and really just not going down that road to talk about emotional struggles in general, let alone at work. And then when gen xers and millennials were also taught that in some ways, our generations were saying, no. We're we're discontinuing the cycle because we don't want to feel as ill as you do. And so I think that there was a quite the shift from starting, I think, slowly from probably the early aughts, I would say, where, you know, we started noticing and, listen, mental health issues are rampant amongst gen x, you know, millennials. It's it's a known thing, especially for mood disorders. And I think that these generations just said, we don't we don't want to end up like those who came before us.

Aoife O'Brien [00:15:44]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:15:45]:

So we took a lot of risk starting to talk about this, and it doesn't always go well. It doesn't always go well because there are potential consequences for our identities in the workplace personally or professionally. And I'm not gonna sit here and say every conversation will go swimmingly well because that's a

Aoife O'Brien [00:16:06]:

lie. Mhmm.

Melissa Doman [00:16:08]:

There are some cases where it really does go quite well and people don't attach these false correlations to emotional health struggles with ability to perform, but some people do because they don't understand the topic where you can you can have emotional health struggles but still be a good leader. You can have a a mental illness and still be really good at your job. You know, there are people who they don't wanna speak up because they don't wanna be incorrectly labeled and I don't blame them. People have every reason in the world to be concerned.

Aoife O'Brien [00:16:48]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:16:49]:

And so that's why it's so important that if you feel you wanna talk about it in the workplace, I would do that back end prep first. Why do I want to talk about this in the workplace? Who do I want to talk to? What do I need to share? What do I want them to do with this information? What is the function of bringing this up in the workplace? Because, you know, if I'm worried, are these my own personal worries based on how I was raised? Have people been saying things in my workplace that make me fearful that they will judge me? You know, what is the source of the fear? And so I think that there's the outside of work factors, like the identity, how we treat the subject. And then inside of work, what have we observed that gives us reason to pause? And I think that it's important to identify the source of those fears, how or if you want to overcome them, and really being honest with yourself of is my team, my leader, my company the type of place that will wrongfully label me or not? Yeah. And how do I explain these concerns? Because there's no rule against that. In fact, I encourage it. If I was going to share with the manager, I would say I need to talk to you about these struggles I'm having. I know we have a good work relationship. You're happy with my output.

Melissa Doman [00:18:17]:

I'm worried that telling you about these struggles will change how you look at me, and I need your reassurance that it won't. Yeah. And if you can't give me that, then then I understand, and we can't have this conversation. So it's, there's a lot of factors at play there.

Aoife O'Brien [00:18:37]:

And, like, what would be the driving factor, do you think, for someone to want to have that conversation, to actually bring that to light in the workplace, especially if they're, like, they're so afraid of what people will think of being labelled.

Melissa Doman [00:18:51]:

Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [00:18:51]:

But let's let's assume that they're in an environment where actually it is it is quite safe. They think that it'll be okay to speak up and and share what's going on for them. Like, what is it driving? Like, why do you think people want to share more about that kind of stuff at work?

Melissa Doman [00:19:07]:

I love that question, and I think that there are a number of very useful reasons. Now I also wanna highlight that there are some occasions where people take the purpose of these conversations quite too far. So don't let me forget to cover that because it's very important.

Aoife O'Brien [00:19:27]:

Yeah. So I I think usually I am not your psycho therapist. I'm not your Oh, girl.

Melissa Doman [00:19:33]:

I make sure I don't forget to talk about that. So I would say that the key drivers to talk about your mental health in the workplace is not just to talk about it. You know, the mental health at work movement loves to often say, you know, mental health matters and we should talk about it. I go, great. Why? Why? What are the specific reasons and what are the outcomes that you're aiming for instead of just spewing words into an infinite conversational abyss which is what usually happens.

Aoife O'Brien [00:20:09]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:20:11]:

So I think it's really about if you're having private struggles that are impacting you emotionally, that you feel could be impacting your performance, could be impacting how you interact with people at work, could be changing your behavior, how you turn up at work. There are 2 opportunities to let the people who interact with you most know what is going on so they don't falsely attribute the wrong meaning, and what you need that these people can give you

Aoife O'Brien [00:20:47]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:20:48]:

In terms of, you know, support and understanding because you can't expect like, let's say, for example, let's say you need to get a formal accommodation from HR. That's not something your colleague can help you with. That's something that you have to speak to HR about. That's something that you may need to speak to your manager about so they can work with you and HR to make sure that you have the right support you need, that, you know, things are being, followed to the t in terms of compliance because that gets into legal territory. But let's say, for example, that you are, you know, having some struggles with a mental health condition or let's say that you have a child or a partner who has a mental illness and you are, you know, experiencing stress from that and it's changing how you communicate, I would so much rather let people know why I'm struggling and seem different instead of them being like, well, she's acting like a bitch.

Aoife O'Brien [00:21:52]:

Yeah. Or she can't do her

Melissa Doman [00:21:54]:

job or Can't do her job. Yeah. You know, clearly, she's slipping, and I think that there is power in in controlling that narrative and letting people know what's going on, what you need from them, and most importantly, what you're doing to manage it. Yeah. It's one thing to struggle with mental health. It's another thing to manage it. We don't choose to have a mental illness. We don't choose to have our our mental health negatively impacted.

Melissa Doman [00:22:25]:

We choose how to deal with it. Mhmm. We are responsible for that. You know, and while understanding we need access to resources and can afford to use them, which is a totally different discussion. Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [00:22:37]:

But I think that's so interesting, Melissa, because I don't hear a lot of people talking about that. I think when we talk about mental health, we assume that it's some it's, sorry, I assume that it's this permanent condition and that someone is not gonna change, that it's gonna impact how they work, and they're not necessarily doing something about it, I suppose, is what I'm trying to say when we talk about that in the general sense. And I love that you said we need to let people know how we're managing it because the assumption is that if we're being open about it, that we're being open about how we're also managing it, what we are doing. 1 one would hope. One would hope. And if I can come back to this question, I said you were like, it depends on the reason that you're sharing, and you're like, don't let your manager turn into your psychotherapist. That is not what they're here for.

Melissa Doman [00:23:30]:

And I before I get into that, you know, I went on this kind of harangue in my book about and it's a unpopular opinion, but it's a truthful one and it's an important one, about when people use mental health struggles as excuses for bad behavior

Aoife O'Brien [00:23:48]:

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:23:49]:

For, you know, treating other people poorly. And I go, mm-mm. No. You don't.

Aoife O'Brien [00:23:55]:

Yeah. No. You don't. You need to take responsibility. Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:23:59]:

You have to take responsibility, and you have to manage it yourself, and the world can't bend to you. You know, hopefully people can give you support when you need it, but if you're using, oh, like, oh, I can't because, you know, I struggle with this, I go, oh, not true. There are many, many, many, many, many tools at your disposal to help you manage it. It's not always gonna be a 10. Yeah. You know, it's ups and downs, but it doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to manage that condition or to manage you know, even if you don't have a condition, to manage the stressors in your life so you don't put a big old stress footprint on other people. It's your responsibility. Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [00:24:43]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:24:44]:

So there are some people who will, unfortunately, abuse the purpose of this conversation. And listen. There's 8,000,000,000 people in the world. Of course, there's going to be some bad apples who kind of sully the purpose of this, and they bring a bad name to the cause. And they will use talking about their mental health struggles almost like like a a flag to people around them saying, by the way, I struggle with this, and I'm I'm not hesitant to weaponize this information.

Aoife O'Brien [00:25:20]:

There's some people that because of my condition Yeah. And they may use that as a species.

Melissa Doman [00:25:27]:

Or I am who I am for my struggles, or I have trauma, or, you know, just they're so quick to use it as a scapegoat or as reason. And there are some people, some, who will use a diagnosed condition as a legal kind of cover your ass because it is a protected characteristic.

Aoife O'Brien [00:25:51]:

Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You can't fire me now because I'm protected because I have

Melissa Doman [00:25:56]:

to confront There are people, this is not the majority, I want to make that clear, but there are people who do that. I have seen it. And so when people bring up mental health struggles without a purpose other than, like and it doesn't necessarily need to be the reasons I said before. Mhmm. It could be that people are just relating to each other.

Aoife O'Brien [00:26:20]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:26:20]:

Oh, you know, I really appreciate you telling me that you struggle with depression. You know, I struggle with anxiety. And so it could just be building rapport. That's a wonderful reason to do it. But if you have people who are kind of, flashing up highlights of, oh, I have this and I have this and I have this, and there's there's no clear connection

Aoife O'Brien [00:26:40]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:26:42]:

To the purpose of why they're bringing it up, or it seems to come up really, really, really often and sometimes at at, you know, completely unnecessary or inappropriate moments, those are red flags because there's some people who will use that information as a form of manipulation. I have seen it too many times.

Aoife O'Brien [00:27:04]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:27:06]:

And then the worst part is that if you have people who are trying to be open, trying to accommodate and they get burned, do you really think they're going to be likely to do that again for other people? So all it takes is one bad burning experience.

Aoife O'Brien [00:27:24]:

And then it's

Melissa Doman [00:27:25]:

Yeah. No. They're like, I learned my lesson, and so they they screwed that person Yeah. Until they find someone else who who hopefully encourages them to get over that experience.

Aoife O'Brien [00:27:36]:

Can we talk a bit about this this idea that if you're putting the pressure or you're sharing now because you're like, I want to be able to talk to my manager about what's going on and almost replace the the therapist role as your manager. So, like, it do you see

Melissa Doman [00:27:51]:

that happening? No. No. No. No. Oh. Oh, no. That's what I mean.

Aoife O'Brien [00:27:55]:

That's bad.

Melissa Doman [00:27:55]:

Yeah. So I I'm very, very clear, not only in my book, but also, very proudly earlier this month, actually, last week for for World Mental Health Day, we launched a leadership certification program. It's called the mental health at work conversational literacy program for leaders. So there is a huge section in one of the modules, actually, throughout most of them, about what your role is and is not as a leader. What are the boundaries around these conversations? How you can be a supportive manager not turning into a therapist? How you can help them? How you shouldn't help them? You know, who are the right people to connect them to if you're not the best person to help them? So you don't wanna do them a disservice. And I think that the the managers who are at the highest risk of becoming that workplace therapist are the ones who tend to be the savior types Yeah. Where they try to shield their team members, protect them, bubble wrap them. You're ultimately doing them a disservice and yourself by doing that.

Melissa Doman [00:29:13]:

And so I think that part of understanding the purpose of these conversations is knowing their limitations

Aoife O'Brien [00:29:21]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:29:22]:

And their boundaries.

Aoife O'Brien [00:29:23]:

Yeah. Yeah. Having those clear boundaries. Yeah. Melissa, something that you you touched on this idea earlier of the high functioning nature. So a lot of people can have, a mental health issue, but they still remain high functioning. So I'd love to talk about maybe the difference between someone who's who has something going on, but they're high functioning and from the outside, you cannot

Melissa Doman [00:29:47]:

Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [00:29:48]:

Tell anything Right. Versus what is the impact then when someone is not so high functioning? How does that maybe present itself, and what is the impact on that person and those around them?

Melissa Doman [00:30:01]:

Yeah. So high functioning, you know, mental health issues or a a mental health condition, you know, because those are different, it's it's kind of remarkable because there's some people who have diagnosed conditions, for example, where they've done lots of therapy, maybe they take medication, they have found ways to channel some of their symptoms into healthy outlets, you would never know that they struggle because they really don't present as if they do. You you just wouldn't tell. But there are some some indicators where it can kinda be a a kraken in the armor, so to speak, where you can see little little signs. So I have found, typically speaking, that that's easier to see with anxiety as opposed to other things because people are also quite good at masking Mhmm. As well. So it could be that, someone has, like, a, repetitive physical movement. That's usually an indication of anxiety sometimes, or it could be that someone is hyper, hyper organized, or they are very, very, very detail oriented, or just little ways that you can see that they're channeling nervous energy into tasks.

Melissa Doman [00:31:25]:

That can be a sign, I say can be because we can never guarantee, can be a sign of someone who privately deals with an anxiety condition but has found helpful ways to deal with it. There are some other folks where, let's say, for example, they have issues with PTSD or acute stress disorder, and they may have issues around triggers, flashbacks, panic attacks, that sort of thing. There are some folks that sometimes can let through when they seem quite reactive. So they may be self aware, but they struggle with emotional self management, which is, you know, awareness and management are not the same. So but, again, those are only when it comes through and it doesn't always do that. There are many folks that you would never tell that they are struggling with a a mental health condition. There are many folks who are in very public figure positions, who struggle with mental health conditions, many of whom have have been quite honest about that. And you, again, you just wouldn't know because they found healthy outlets.

Melissa Doman [00:32:41]:

If they hadn't found healthy outlets, might be more visible, but when you look at low functioning mental health issues, that is quite different, especially because people who are very low functioning, sometimes may go on short term sick sickness absence, long term sickness absence, permanent disability. They might be in more inpatient settings, But when it's not those cases and someone has more low functioning mental illness, it means that it has a higher impact on their daily functioning and and activities and how they interact with other people. So let's say, for example, this could be more severe cases of, substance abuse, could be, unmanaged personality disorder, could be, unmanaged severe mood disorder where people are starting to turn up professionally or personally where their their affects, their facial expressions are kind of flattened or they seem a little physically unkept or they have trouble communicating or they withdraw for long, long, long periods of time. They have issues with, prioritization with work that may not be related to a learning disability. It could be lots of different things where, you know, low functioning causes more issues with functioning, which are more noticeable. Mhmm. But we can never assume the reason

Aoife O'Brien [00:34:16]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:34:16]:

Ever. Mhmm. It could be either a mental health condition or they could just be going through a really stressful period in their life. Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [00:34:23]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:34:24]:

And they they're having trouble functioning. So it's kind of an inverse relationship. When you're higher functioning, you show a lower impact. When you're lower functioning, you show a higher impact.

Aoife O'Brien [00:34:35]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'd I'd love to get into this idea. You were talking about this so I suppose for me, it's understanding you talked about the awareness versus the management and people using terms quite flippantly. Oh, that's causing me this or I feel Yeah. That.

Aoife O'Brien [00:34:59]:

But how do we bridge the gap, I suppose? So how do we understand when it's something that is causing an issue versus something that is just kind of in passing, let's say? In terms of? So, if I am someone who experiences some of the things that you're talking about, how do I know when is the time that I need to go and and speak to someone about it?

Melissa Doman [00:35:27]:

Ah, okay.

Aoife O'Brien [00:35:28]:

Yeah. Okay.

Melissa Doman [00:35:29]:

So I think that it's very individually dependent.

Aoife O'Brien [00:35:33]:

Mhmm.

Melissa Doman [00:35:33]:

And so, you know, there are some people who they might be able to kind of slog through for a little while and then they end up being okay.

Aoife O'Brien [00:35:44]:

Mhmm.

Melissa Doman [00:35:45]:

There are some other people where they noticed that their traditional coping methods just aren't working, and they're finding that doing, you know, typical tasks or social interactions or just typical life stuff becomes harder and harder and harder. Then when things feel like they're beyond your ability to manage them on your own and or you start getting feedback from people close to you in your life that they are noticing a, b, c, d, e, f, g, then it it is time to get help. But to be honest, it shouldn't even have to get that far because I believe that speaking to a mental health therapist is getting a tune up like any other form of medical check.

Aoife O'Brien [00:36:31]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:36:33]:

And there's no reason not to be, you know, seeing someone as needed or fairly consistently because it is the maintenance and treatment of an organ like any other organ in the body.

Aoife O'Brien [00:36:48]:

Yeah. That's such a valuable point. I think if there's anything that I took from our entire conversation, it's that that it's about a tune up. It's about it's like getting a physical checkup, but now you're getting a a mental checkup to see how is everything going for you, what's going on

Melissa Doman [00:37:06]:

Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [00:37:06]:

How are you coping, all of these things. And Yeah. With so many different things happening in our lives, it's bad. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:37:14]:

I like I you know, it it could just be that you're going through a tough time and you need to speak to someone, you don't need to have a condition. Yeah. I mean, it's it's just getting a tune up like any other specialist. And so but if we are talking about someone really struggling, really becoming symptomatic, you know, that that is definitely the time Yeah. To reach out to help, whether it's a therapist, a doctor, a psychiatrist, you know, whoever, because there's a reason. It is called support network, not support stand alone.

Aoife O'Brien [00:37:47]:

I love that. Support stand alone. I am so independent, and I am just standing by myself.

Melissa Doman [00:37:54]:

And how is that working out for you?

Aoife O'Brien [00:37:56]:

Exactly. Exactly. This is it. Melissa, before we wrap things up, there there's a conversation I had on the podcast, probably a couple of years ago now, And it's something I think quite a lot about, and and it's, in our conversation, she was sort of mentioning how we have a tendency to maybe trigger each other in the workplace. So we're bringing our own emotional baggage, let's say, into work and therefore we are reacting to people instead of responding. Any thoughts around that or or or noticing that type of behavior or what would

Melissa Doman [00:38:34]:

you do about it? Oh, yes. I usually describe it as we're all swimming in a sea of triggers trying to find our own boat, but people don't seem to realize they have to build

Aoife O'Brien [00:38:49]:

their own boat. Okay. Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:38:51]:

They don't drown in it.

Aoife O'Brien [00:38:52]:

Yeah. So You're not looking for the boat out there. Your boat is You

Melissa Doman [00:38:56]:

gotta make it yourself. That's right.

Aoife O'Brien [00:38:58]:

Self built boat.

Melissa Doman [00:39:00]:

So I often find that I mean, granted, I used to be a therapist, so I'm very good at noticing when people are triggered. And it can be this the most subtle sign. But it's I tend to notice that when people are triggered, they either withdraw quite quickly, they become quite reactive, or they start questioning a lot. And because I'm so used to picking up on that, I'll say, like, have I have I struck a nerve? So I don't like to say I don't like to abuse the word triggered because so many people do.

Aoife O'Brien [00:39:39]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:39:41]:

And so I tend to use more accessible language saying, have did I did I struck a nerve? You know, what what's going on? And people's ability to real time process that they have been triggered and why is not a natural skill set. Yeah. It is a learned

Aoife O'Brien [00:40:00]:

skill set. Yeah. We don't realize because we're we're in the moment and we're dealing with the emotion. Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:40:06]:

Oh, yeah. And when you get triggered or your fight, flight, freeze gets gets turned on, you know, your prefrontal cortex in the front of your brain that has your logic, conscience, rationale, personality, that that is not in charge. That's gone. Gone. Well, it's still there. It's just not lighting up like the the, amygdala is in the hippocampus, you know, attached to memory. That's a very, reptilian part of us. Mhmm.

Melissa Doman [00:40:37]:

That when that kicks on, it's because our nervous system and our brain perceives a threat. That's why we act that way is that we feel threatened or we feel upset. And so I tend to recommend something called calling out the secondary process. So that is a therapeutic term from way back in the day where you're calling out a dynamic of what's happening as opposed to the content being spoken about. So let's say, for example, you and I are having a conversation, and I I clearly have struck a nerve. And we're starting to kind of, you know, pick at each other or whatever it is. I would zoom out and say, I'm noticing that it seems like I've I've struck a nerve. I don't wanna assume that I have.

Melissa Doman [00:41:26]:

I don't wanna assume that I have. I don't wanna assume why, but I feel like we need to pause for a minute and understand, like, why we're going off the rails here because I certainly didn't mean to, but I I wanna understand what's going on. So we're calling out the dynamic Yeah. Not the content because

Aoife O'Brien [00:41:45]:

Rather rather than getting wrapped up in the emotion of, like, this person's picking at me while I've triggered you, and now I'm getting triggered by heck and all this kind of stuff.

Melissa Doman [00:41:55]:

Getting caught up in the experience. You pause and you you observe the dynamic.

Aoife O'Brien [00:42:00]:

Yeah. I love that.

Melissa Doman [00:42:02]:

And it's it's a it's a for some people, it's an uncomfortable thing to do because it's very honest, very transparent. You worry that by saying something like that could make it worse. But usually in my experience, having the courage to have that tough conversation usually yields positive results. Yeah. And understanding connection or respect.

Aoife O'Brien [00:42:32]:

Totally. Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:42:34]:

And, I found out in the last few weeks, I I have to find the source, but it said something like people who have the, courage and confidence to have difficult conversations tend to have overall better cognitive health because you're engaging so many different parts of your brain.

Aoife O'Brien [00:42:53]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:42:54]:

I I was like, well, I'm a freaking genius then. So

Aoife O'Brien [00:43:00]:

Love it.

Melissa Doman [00:43:00]:

But I

Aoife O'Brien [00:43:01]:

love it. Yeah. Melissa, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about today? Is there anything else that you think is really pertinent to our conversation that we haven't yet covered before we wrap things up?

Melissa Doman [00:43:13]:

I would say that, you know, it's really important to understand the spectrum of mental health in the context of work.

Aoife O'Brien [00:43:20]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:43:21]:

But in order to change those conversations, we need to focus on teaching people the education and the skills

Aoife O'Brien [00:43:28]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:43:28]:

To do that. Yeah. Because otherwise, we're just gonna keep saying mental health is important. Mental health is important. Here's what it looks like, but not actually teaching people how to change Yeah. The conversations.

Aoife O'Brien [00:43:38]:

Yeah.

Melissa Doman [00:43:39]:

So I would say, you know, it's really time that we move from solely an awareness building stage and move more towards equipping people to do it Yeah. Which is what every deliverable in my business, my book, you know, all my LinkedIn courses, everything is skills based. Yeah. Because, and this is the the trademark tag tagline for my business, awareness is great, action is better.

Aoife O'Brien [00:44:06]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. It's not about the knowing. It's about the doing. What are you gonna do differently as a result? I love that. I love that.

Aoife O'Brien [00:44:15]:

And, Melissa, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Melissa Doman [00:44:22]:

Oh, I love that question. I think for me, being happier at work is knowing that I can turn up as I am in all shapes and forms and shades and having that be understood to be just all of who I am, and that's okay. So when I turn up, you know, happy and bubbly or if I turn up, you know, pissed off and angry or kind of sad or scatterbrained that people know those are all different parts of the mosaic of me, and it doesn't change how they feel about the work I do, how I value them in my life, and who I am as a person, and that all of those pieces together are fine as they

Aoife O'Brien [00:45:26]:

are. Brilliant.

Melissa Doman [00:45:29]:

That, to me, is is happiness at work.

Aoife O'Brien [00:45:33]:

And if people want to connect with you, if they want to find out more about you do about what you do, about your certification program, about your speaking, your book, what's the best way they can do that?

Melissa Doman [00:45:45]:

Best way to reach out to me is to connect with me on LinkedIn, and, my website is melissadohman.com. So if you would like strategic advising or speaking services or training, facilitation, we also have a legal compliance program that we just launched with, an employment attorney. She's fantastic. We're a certification program. Please reach out. We'd love to help and move from an awareness building stage to actually taking action to equip your organization to actually have these conversations and not just say they're important. So we'd love to hear from you. Please reach out anytime.

Aoife O'Brien [00:46:27]:

It's such an important distinction, I think, isn't it? Like, awareness building versus now we're actually at the action stage. Now we need to start doing something about it. Yeah. Correct. Brilliant.

Melissa Doman [00:46:36]:

And some organizations are still needing to go through that awareness building stage, and we can help with that. Absolutely. Yeah. But eventually after that, gotta translate to action.

Aoife O'Brien [00:46:46]:

You gotta yeah. It's not it's not good enough just to talk about it. It's translating that into skills

Melissa Doman [00:46:52]:

and skills.

Aoife O'Brien [00:46:53]:

Brilliant. And

Melissa Doman [00:46:54]:

I'm happy to to be to hold their hand a little bit along the way.

Aoife O'Brien [00:46:59]:

I've loved this conversation, Melissa. Thank you so much for your time today. Really, really enjoyed it.

Melissa Doman [00:47:04]:

Oh, thank you so much. It was wonderful.